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Multicultural Art
http://www.topix.com/city/maple-city-mi

I have been laughing my head off at all that jingoistic slamming of Dr Ettefagh and an absolutely reasonable article. But then Pakistan would not have been a failed state if it didn't have just this very level of her people.

Pobre Aamir Ali
"After reading this post and previous one by Ettefagh, all I can see a virulent hatred against Pakistan and its people"

Is it ever possible that people like you do hold some contribution in making people almost across the world pity you if not outright hate you?

Agree with this author. Pakistan is going to be a jumbo version of Somalia if it is not fixed, ring-fenced and sanctioned now. Strict controls must be put in place to secure the nukes, stop the friendship and hosting of the Taliban and Al Qaeda. Pakistan can become the hub of serious disasters if it continues.

Good idea and vision. Nukes and Al Qaeda should not mix, time to take the matter seriously and start a global endeavour to fix the problem called Pakistan. World safety is more important than unity of that artificial country.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/11/opinion/11rich.html?em&ex=1195016400&en=f8cc907c979877a6&ei=5087%0A

Looks like the first proper step is being taken with Commonwealth foreign ministers considering the expulsion of Pakistan from its organisation.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/07/AR2007110702280.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

George W. Bush is hardly the first U.S. president to forgive sins against democracy by a Pakistani leader. Like his predecessors from Jimmy Carter onward, Bush has tolerated bad behavior in hopes that Pakistan might do Washington's bidding on some urgent U.S. priority -- in this case, a crackdown on al-Qaeda. But the scariest legacy of Bush's failed bargain with Gen. Pervez Musharraf isn't the rise of another U.S.-backed dictatorship in a strategic Muslim nation, or even the establishment of a new al-Qaeda haven along Pakistan's lawless border. It's the leniency shown toward the most dangerous nuclear-trafficking operation in history -- an operation masterminded by one man, Abdul Qadeer Khan.

While I can understand the opposition to what Dr Ettefagh has written about Pakistan, I still agree with him. Iran is a nation with 1000's of years of history. Pakistan has failed its people in its short history. Your ideas about using the UN mandate and other multilateral options are sound. I pray leaders try them, instead of repeating failures

This supposedly election announcement of Musharraf is a sham, as the "emergency rule" continues. This means any rally and election campaign can be broken up by his police.

I watched his press conference. He did not speak about any possibilty that he might lose. His tone and choice of words was that of a man that presumes himself to be the future president of Pakistan.

Yes, time for sanctions on Pakistan until it disarms and defines its true intentions.

Pakistan is a fraud of a state, as far as allies go. I tend to agree with the writer that Pakistan is a failed state and the world has to get together to solve the problem before it gets worse.

We really do not need another 9-11 to learn that Al Qaeda operates from Pakistani territory, or areas near the Afghan border. It is probably with approval of big boys in Islamabad.

YTS:

The "rest of the world" does not have solutions to Pakistan's problems and the "rest of the world" cannot work together on any single issue. Stop your fantasies.

Amazing to See:

The point that I and other posters are making that many of the allegations and prescriptions Mr Ettefagh makes about Pakistan apply equally to Iran and other countries in the region.

And for yours and the author's info, Alqaeda IS a Saudi organization, still primarily funded and based from there.

The current setup in Pakistan is extremely dangerous. Given Pakistan's trackrecord as an unstable state, it is time for the rest of the world to get ahead of the curve, not sit back and watch it create a bigger problem and then run around urgently.

...that people continue to attack the writer and especially his home country, instead of debating the issue. This web log is not about the author' home country, but about his ideas and the topic.

What he is saying, in my opinion, is correct: Pakistan is a failed case, some 60 years later. It cannot remain on an artificial life support system, The main sponsor of the strongman there, America, must reformulate its approach, come back to the international arena and cooperate with the rest of the world before a bigger disaster comes out of that unmanagable country.

The main point of the author that Al Qaeda's use of Pakistan to create problems for Saudi Arabia must be taken very seriously. It is correct.

Professor in Tehran:

How can you claim Iran does not meddle in other countries affairs? Do you have a iota of Iraqi Shai groups sponsorship, Hezbollah and Hamas funding and direction??

Wasted Cause:

Who is going to punish Pakistanis? You ?

I agree with the writer. You cannot compare the two cases. Perhaps you can compare the CIA coup of 1953 with Pakistan of today, but that is also a bad comparison as there was no Al Qaeda and Taliban type of international danger in 1953 and Iran was certainly not a place for that kind of thing.

Back in 1953 and 1979, Iranians wanted to manage their own affairs, independently. It did not want, and does not prefer today, to meddle in other countries.

So, I agree with Dr. Ettefagh. If USA learns to work with other nations as partners, there can be a good interational effort. If it wants to go it alone, it will fail no matter which direction it takes.

After reading this post and previous one by Ettefagh, all I can see a virulent hatred against Pakistan and its people.

His knowledge about Pakistan and its society seems very limited. It seems he only interested in creating more chaos and instability in the region.

His advocay of dissolving Pakistan is based on the fact that a stronger Pakistan armed with nuclear weapons can thawrt the Iranian ambition of dominating central Asia.

It does not matter if Pakistan is nursed thru by the rest of the world or is walked away from, in both cases, Pakistan is doomed to fail because it is an artificial nation-state.

What is need, urgently, is to disarm Pakistan from its nukes and separate the good from the bad in that country to isolate the islamic extremists and Al Qaeda. If not, then all 170 million Pakistanis are guilty by associsation and must be punished collectively. Fast and hard!

I am surprised that Dr. Ettefagh still has those barbarian beliefs of wiping off all that from the face of the earth which they do not personally like. He is continuing with his rhetoric of dissolving Pakistan , and it is yet to be known how many other countries he has on his list to be dissolved to solve the world problems.

Dr. Ettefagh might be thinking that he can whitewash the results of Iranian Revolution starting some 30 years ago with 30 million Iranian people looking for their rights to vote and elect their own government. This was not required by them so they can support terrorism from the day one by holding 100s of US diplomats hostage for a year. This was not required by them because they wanted to support , fund and train terrorists for bombing buildings in Saudi Arabia,continue terrorism promotion in Lebanon through Hizbullah and in Iraq and also in Pakistan. This was not required by them so they would be able to deny holocaust and would like to wipe out Israel from the world map , jail their own writers in the country and deprive the nation from basic human rights. This was not required by them because they wanted to develop an atomic weapon with clandestine nuclear program .

But who has done all above ? These are all facts resulting in isolation of Iran from the world community with severe economic sanctions and embargoes against them imposed by the world community. I do not believe these are the Iranian people as I know them from the history with people like , Omar Khayyam , Saadi Shirazi , Amir Khusro and Moulana Roumi.These are only the religious dictators and not the majority of people.

The only thing Dr. Ettefagh is right here is that the current situation in Iran is not comparable with the one in Pakistan. This is because Pakistan is an open country and the world can come to know what is going on there and the voice of Pakistani people is being heard all around the world. This is because Pakistan has been fighting against terrorism and part of the current scenario is caused by that .This is because Pakistan still respects the world opinion.This is because there are democratic institutions in Pakistan in place even with the current regime.The emergency situation there is a temporary phase and it will be harnessed very quickly.

Once again, nobody can ever solve any problems in the world community by dissolving the nations or wiping them from the world map as desired by Dr. Ali Ettefagh.

B+1:

1) Iran supports Iraqi insurgents, Lebanese insurgents, Palestinian insurgents. Its not Iran's place to condemn Pakistan for supporting insurgency.

2) Pakistan as a country may be 60 years old, the history of the Pakistani people goes back 5,000 years. Making a country does not dissolve your history or ethnicity

3) Pakistan is ruled by an elected local, provincial and federal government. Musharraf is just one man, whom the whole world obsessed over. The Shah was an absolute ruler, Musharraf is not

4) The only differences between Iran and Pakistan is Iranians have oil wealth, which Pakistanis do not and in Iran the bigoted mullah rules, while in Pakistan they just create problems.

Iran had a revolution, Pakistan is having an implosion. Iranians were not hosting Al Qaeda and they have always fought the Taliban and Al Qaeda people. Iran arrested more than 500 Al Qaeda extremists when they were found on Iranian soil, including bin Laden's son, and deported them to their own countries of origin. What has Pakistan done?

Iran is a member of NPT and has no atomic bombs, Pakistan has the bomb and it is not under the supervision of IAEA.

Iran has thousands of history. Pakistan is barely 60 years old.

Iran's shah never pretended to be a democrat or allow elections. Musharraf's record is a fraud on that account, two-faced.

This ought to be enough to have a contrast.

I am surprised that Dr. Ettefagh still has those barbarian beliefs of wiping off all that from the face of the earth which they do not personally like. He is continuing with his rhetoric of dissolving Pakistan , and it is yet to be known how many other countries he has on his list to be dissolved to solve the world problems.

Dr. Ettefagh might be thinking that he can whitewash the results of Iranian Revolution starting some 30 years ago with 30 million Iranian people looking for their rights to vote and elect their own government. This was not required by them so they can support terrorism from the day one by holding 100s of US diplomats hostage for a year. This was not required by them because they wanted to support , fund and train terrorists for bombing buildings in Saudi Arabia,continue terrorism promotion in Lebanon through Hizbullah and in Iraq and also in Pakistan. This was not required by them so they would be able to deny holocaust and would like to wipe out Israel from the world map , jail their own writers in the country and deprive the nation from basic human rights. This was not required by them because they wanted to develop an atomic weapon with clandestine nuclear program .

But who has done all above ? These are all facts resulting in isolation of Iran from the world community with severe economic sanctions and embargos against them imposed by the world community. I do not believe these are the Iranian people as I know them from the history with people like , Omar Khayyam , Saadi Shirazi , Amir Khusro and Moulana Roumi.These are only the religious dictators and not the majority of people.

The only thing Dr. Ettefagh is right here is that the current situation in Iran is not comparable with the one in Pakistan. This is because Pakistan is an open country and the world can come to know what is going on there and the voice of Pakistani people is being heard all around the world. This is because Pakistan has been fighting against terrorism and part of the current scenario is caused by that .This is because Pakistan still respects the world opinion.This is because there are democratic institutions in Pakistan in place even with the current regime.The emergency situation there is a temporary phase and it will be harnessed very quickly.

Once again, nobody can ever solve any problems in the world community by dissolving the nations or wiping them from the world map as desired by Dr. Ali Ettefagh.

Times are much different than the Iranian revolution. We have no USSR and ideological cold war. Pakistan is a factory that exports terrorists and they are violent and aimless and these terrorists have been made larger than life by this constant broken record "war against terrorism". Looks like the war has been lost!

America made a mistake with Iran and started opposing its quest for democracy. Thirty years later, the same mistake continues.

In Pakistan, America must fall on the side of democracy, if that can be truly implemented in that country. Pakistani history shows that it is a serial blunder of a "state" and it has not managed orderly transition of power from one regime to another. The next guy has exiled the last one or put them in jail or has set up coups in a fraud.

Here we go, more personal attacks on the writer instead of debating facts.

The writer is correct that Iran and Iranians were not part of ramdom acts of terror launched from Iranian territory, as a refuge for Al Qaeda.

Second, about 50% of people in Pakistan support Al Qaeda and approve of 9-11.

Third, the world has changed since 1979.

Fourth, the author's message is simple: America got thrown out of Iran, but in the case of Pakistan the article of David Ignatius, which is the question for this panel, suggests Amerca to walk away from Pakistan after Musharraf's second coup.

One thing is common between Iran and Pakistan.

The US actively undermined democracy in both nations in the early 50s, in Iran by toppling a democratically elected Mossadegh and in Pakistan by supporting Ghulam Mohammed's dismissal of a government which had a legislative majority in the Constituent Assembly, and thereby the trashing of a constitution framed by it. The constitution would have cut down the discretionary executive powers of the Governor General in favor of the elected Prime Minister. Ghulam Mohammed dismissed the Prime Minister by exercising his powers under the Provisional Constitution of Pakistan.

Ghulam Mohammed then appointed an politically obscure individual, the Pakistani Ambassador to the US Mohammed Bogra as Prime Minister. Both these events (in Iran the fall of Mossadegh and the dismissal of a Prime Minister with legislative majority Nazimuddin and junking of constitution by Ghulam Mohammed) happened in 1953, the year Pakistan joined a couple of US alliances.

As an Indian I don't see how the future will be different if the US refuses to acknowledge its past.

Dr. Ali Ettefagh does not know history of Muslim Iran and Muslim Pakistan as both were part of a State known as Caliphate and which survived for several hundreds years from Morocco/Spain to Pakistan and Yemen to Chechnya.

So let Dr. Ali Ettefagh read History books before he writes any article of division instead of article on Unity.

World Muslims need unity and not any more division and bloodshed.

Rest is here in:

http://www.universal-publishers.com/book.php?method=ISBN&book=1581128770

Thanks,

Mr. Ali Ettefagh appears to be an illiterate and crazy shah parast Iranian nationalist.

Personally I come from a Shia Muslim background, but have always been very skeptical about Iranians and their bent of mind.

Washington Post should put a leash on such ill informed people, who are unaware of the basics of Pakistan and Indian history but still like to write...this is a free world isn't it?

Iranians deserve Hujatis to rule them for another one century so that all traces of sanity are precipitated from that nation.

A good 80 % Pakistani people are basically realistically secular and tolerant people as the religious parties had never obtained more than 2% of the votes in any national elections. This upsurge and change of mood is a result of US and Pakistani military adventures in the bordering areas of Pakistan with Afghanistan.

I am hopeful that Pakistan will be able to overcome these small glitches in our political life and again usher into a new era of democracy, development and secularism.

Dr. Ettefagh's commentary here tends toward the incoherent. It is particularly difficult to square his statements that "No Iranian wants (or ever wanted to be part of) a machine to wreak random violence or to let proliferation of hate and terror originate from Iran" with the fact that the Iranian revolution created precisely those things. Perhaps where Iran is concerned he should be less concerned about America's mistakes than those of his own people.

Having said that, his point that Iran 30 years ago is not Pakistan is valid, and worth heeding here. In hindsight, we can see that American policy toward Iran would have reached an uncertain crossroads even without the 1979 revolution, simply because the Shah on whom we relied so heavily would have died without an adult heir. Pakistan's internal politics today are dissimilar in many ways, not least because Gen. Musharraf is in good health and retains firm control of the army, his power base. Pakistan is also a much larger country than Iran was, and while an ally of the United States shares a border with a country much more important to this country in the long run -- which was not the case with Iran 30 years ago.

The dissolution of Pakistan is not on the table as far as the United States is concerned, any more than another earthquake there would be. Another earthquake may happen, but America has no interest in making it happen or being blamed if it does. So also with the dissolution Dr. Ettefagh raises as a possibility. Our best course is to discuss the Pakistan frankly, without illusions as to what is possible in that country in terms of democracy but also with the understanding that a government that relies exclusively on its army for support puts itself in an untenable position. The United States has supported Gen. Musharraf's government because many of its policies have been positive -- this includes with some caveats its policies both toward terrorism and toward India -- not only because Musharraf is the only game in town. We need to be clear, and make sure Pakistanis understand, that his current course threatens all his accomplishments to date. Efforts on his part to correct this course and assemble a broader coalition in support of his government will meet with American approval; further moves toward a military dictatorship will not.

I will note the hypocricy of Mr Ettefagh on the following points:

1. He does not like American interference in Iran, but advocates it for Pakistan despite the huge problem Iran has been for the world since 1979, because of American interference.

2. He ignores Iranian support for violent groups in Iraq, Lebanon and Palestine. He condems Pakistan for support for violent groups in Afghanistan and Occupied Kashmir.

The only difference between Iran and Pakistan is that Iran is rich because of oil wealth, and that the mullahs rule Iran while they merely create problems in Pakistan.

Dr. Ali Ettefagh believes Iran's revolution has gone along an "Indian model" and excesses at the time and today are mere warts caused by reaction to American attacks. His delusion is indeed mandated by wanting to pursue business interests in a radical Islamist environment but Iran does not reflect the Indian or even indeed the Pakistan model of urban pluralization and economic growth.

His point that Iran never directed terror against America is irrelevant, since until 9/11 more Americans were killed and captured (abroad) by sponsored Iranian interests than any other Islamic group. I don't expect that any Pakistan polity unless driven to complete anarchy would bring Osama or Zawahiri to office, but he indeed Dr. Ali has one good point, the tentacles of AQ morphing into organized crime and influence in all Wahhabist mosques and the old ISI connections make any nods to Sunni Islamist radicals or even unleashing the NW / Punjabi nationalist feeling extremely problematic not only to Western fears (nuke and terror) but to neighbors IRAN and India.

More fantasy from Mr Ettefagh who clearly did not read the comments the public made on his earlier crazy piece. This fellow should first control his Iranian arrogance and realize that without oil, his country is nothing.

Who is going to disarm Pakistan and dissolve it? A combo of the UN, US, India, Iran etc? What a giant fantasy.