On 9/11 while Israeli nationals were filming the event and celebrating the attack on the WTC, slapping high fives and holding up a lighter as if at a concert, Iran held a candle light vigil in honor of the fallen victims. Israel has killed more Americans than most of the other Arab and Persian nations, with the possible exception of the Saudis.
Peace in the Middle East? Arm the Palestinians. Jews never fight when the others are armed.

unobdurate punter splenocolic vacanthearted quantitatively thyine unpanged polyphylly
North Florida Community College
http://www.whatnextjournal.co.uk

A very interesting article. It shows how the publicity machine can roll over logic and thought process. We all need to pay attention on how this hype can takeover world events.
And it is unique to Americans. Other countries do not let agents of foreign governments get so close to the heart of policy makers.
Thank for the article.

"You have your views, I have mine. So let's leave it there."

Nuf said. Thanks for the friendly chat.

Rick

This "wait her out" fantasy is what it is all about in the minds of the Palestinian "leadership." I don't say the Palestinian "people" because I'm not sure that they are past just being numb after what their so-called "leaders" have let them suffer.

When you talk about the Arab League of nations - that's precisely going to the question I asked - what justification does Iran or any of those nations have for destroying Israel?

Any such notion - and there was such a notion reiterated by the Supreme Kahuna of Iran Ayatollah or Grand Ayatollah, about the Islamic nations being able to survive but Israel could be wiped out with one bomb.

As for the rest of your comments ... I was walking out to get a haircut about two hours ago and it occurred to me that we may be engaged in a collosal waste of time. After all, for all the stuff written about the war and Adminstration policy, and the Israel lobby and WMD, etc. it will all go on long after you and I get cheesed off about posting.

One final point - I was not raising the issues of Native Americans, Aborigines, etc. as justification for anything -- and again, I reject the rhetorical game-playing of your saying "genocide and theft of land from the Palestinians." You have your views, I have mine. So let's leave it there. My point was that merely casting the Israel-Palestinian issue in those terms, does not, in the grand context of world history, lead to any resolution. It was not a justification, it was existential reality.

A Handle,

Thanks for the post.

Nope, I still consider you a very reasonable, rational and honest person, although we disagree. It is of course a very difficult question.

“First, I think that characterizing the situation as "the original theft" is not going to get us anywhere. I think it precludes any rational discussion because inherent in the notion of theft is wrongful divestment and wrongful possession. If you proceed on that basis, there is nothing more to discuss and the cycle of violence goes on. I don't know if Israel will survive decades of attacks from neighbors but I'm pretty sure that the Palestinians do not have the resources to defeat Israel, or at least, any "victory" will be pyrrhic. One can only imagine what horrific destruction must be wrought in such a scenario.”

Yes, this is the nub of the issue. Let’s hope it doesn’t preclude rational discussion, because it must be squarely and honestly faced.

“I don't know if Israel will survive decades of attacks from neighbors but I'm pretty sure that the Palestinians do not have the resources to defeat Israel, or at least, any "victory" will be pyrrhic. One can only imagine what horrific destruction must be wrought in such a scenario.”

[Pyrrhic: of or relating to or resembling Pyrrhus or his exploits (especially his sustaining staggering losses in order to defeat the Romans); "a Pyrrhic victory"]

I agree that it won’t be pretty, but Israel is doomed. We cannot and should not continue to support her illegal existence forever. The ancient civilizations of the neighborhood will simply wait her out.

The Palestinians do not have the resources, but the Arab League of Nations most certainly does. With the price of oil at $100 per barrel and rising, and our national debt at $10 Trillion and rising, we will not remain a super power for long. It is a shame that we squander our wealth and young peoples lives foolishly in ill advised and unnecessary wars in the region, when this same effort would have given us energy independence from Middle East oil by now. But that is just a fact of life.

You raise other issues like our past genocide and theft of land from the Native Americans, which is a valid point; but this does not justify our support of similar genocide and theft of land from the Palestinians.

We now have to focus on the heinous crimes that our government is perpetrating on the innocent and defenseless people of the world in the modern era in its lust for oil.

Rick:

You wrote:

Rick:

"You sound like a very reasonable, rational and honest person."

Thanks, I think I am. At the same time, I hope that you will not think otherwise simply because in the future I may disagree with you - should I happen to do so. I don't want to fall into any rhetorical traps - this is not directed at you but merely an observation about what sometimes happens on these boards.

You wrote: "From previous discussions with AM, I know that s/he agrees with you and does not expect all 6 million Israelis to leave."

Fair enough. I just don't know as I have not followed his/her comments in any detail and have had one other exchange which I don't even remember now.

More importantly, you asked this:

"'Well, I think we can and SHOULD complain about rocket attacks and suicide bombings and bus and restaurant bombings.'

"This is where I have trouble following your reasoning. You seem to be coming down on the side that says the original theft of Palestinian land by the Allies was O.K., but the rightful owners have no right to fight to get it back. Please clarify."

First, I think that characterizing the situtation as "the original theft" is not going to get us anywhwere. I think it precludes any rational discussion because inherent in the notion of theft is wrongful divestment and wrongful possession. If you proceed on that basis, there is nothing more to discuss and the cycle of violence goes on. I don't know if Israel will survive decades of attacks from neighbors but I'm pretty sure that the Palestinians do not have the resources to defeat Israel, or at least, any "victory" will be pyrrhic. One can only imagine what horrific destruction must be wrought in such a scenario.

Okay, before getting to your question - should one question the "occupation" of Scotland and Wales by the English? Or of present-day Americans of lands originally belonging to Native Americans, or the lands of Baja California, Texas, New Mexico, etc. belonging to the Mexicans, or of present-day Australians of lands belonging to the Aborigines, or of New Zealanders of lands belonging to Maoris?

The honest answer is that I don't know how to formulate right and wrong in this context. I have heard all the arguments about where you begin the concatenation - 50 years ago, 100, 1,000, 5,000, to determine whose land it originally was.

I do think it is clear that after WWII, the Allies felt a need (call it guilt, political recognition, whatever) to do something about a homeland for the Jewish people.

Whether it was right to do it in the ME, is now beside the point. I think from a Palestinian view point, it never was right and is a continuing wrong. From an Israeli point of view, it was getting back ancient lands.

Who is right? You tell me where to start with history and the question answers itself. But as to whose starting point is more just, I can see arguments both ways.

I look at Tibet and see the Chinese occupation as a great injustice. I don't know why the Chinese government says Tibet is and always has been a part of China. However, when I listen to the Dalai Lama recognizing reality and saying he is not asking for independence but some form of autonomy and cultural preservation, I see a practical man.

So, also with the ME. The history of the world is full of land acquisitions or land grabs, depending on which side of the change of ownership you were.

Just as America is an extant reality, or Australia, or UK, or NZ, even modern-day Iran, Iraq (pre-invasion), Turkey, so is Israel.

So, you said you don't follow me when I condemn rocket launchings and bombings. Are you SERIOUSLY contending that Hamas and Hisballah are justified in attacking civilians? If so, we have a profound disagreement.

Keep in mind also that Egypt and Jordan recognize Israel and King Abdullah proposed a plan to recognize Israel and its right to exist in exchange for reverting to pre-1967 borders, etc. - so assuming that some rational set of conditions can be met, a compromise on this issue is feasible. Of course, the devil is in the details and whether Jerusalem remains entirely in Israel, I don't know.

But, your question seems to presuppose that Israel has no right to exist - a position at odds with pretty much everybody in the world except for Palestinians (and their counterparts in Lebanon), Iranian extremists like Ettefagh and Ahmadinejad and the Ayatollahs, a few Pakistani radicals, and perhaps some Syrians.

The real question for all is what sort of dual state can exist.

For my part, I'd make the Golan Heights the HQ of the United Nations, and Jerusalem the World Capital of the UN to be administered by Israel and the Palestinians with oversight by a revovling three member board appointed by the Security Council.

I hope I have answered your question. The answer may not be what you wanted to hear or tried to preordain with the premise you laid out for the question.

A large part of my answer is that this is an unknowable and unanswerable quandary because too much water has gone under the bridge and each side has valid points.

But, most importantly, valid points or not, at some stage, we have to deal with reality.

A Handle

You sound like a very reasonable, rational and honest person.

“Israel is a fact of life. One cannot wish 6 million people away. They are not just going to disappear.”

From previous discussions with AM, I know that s/he agrees with you and does not expect all 6 million Israelis to leave.

“Well, I think we can and SHOULD complain about rocket attacks and suicide bombings and bus and restaurant bombings.”

This is where I have trouble following your reasoning. You seem to be coming down on the side that says the original theft of Palestinian land by the Allies was O.K., but the rightful owners have no right to fight to get it back. Please clarify.

Thanks for the post.

Amviennava

We can agree to disagree.

Israel is a fact of life. One cannot wish 6 million people away. They are not just going to disappear.

You say: "In other words, the occupier must leave, without conditions." Of course, I take it that you mean "occupier" as in all of Israel. That is an unrealistic position and not going anywhere. It may be a wish or wishful thinking, but with ZERO chance of ever happening.

You also write: "So far, we (the US) have refused to see and treat the Palestinians as human beings. Let's face it, they are lower than dirt, and the rest of the Arabs tolerated as long as we think thee is a chance they wil submit to Israel."

I disagree with this. I do recall that GWB turned away from Yassir Arafat when he caught the man lying to him about the arms transfers. However, now even he seems to recognize that the US has to be engaged in getting peace.

"In other words, since we established the first terror there (the creation of Israel), it is incumbent on us to see to it that our attitude changes."

This is where, with respect, you get unrealistic. Calling the creation of Israel an act of terror is going to end all discussion. The Palestinians and other Arabs and the Iranians too surely understand that much. Or perhaps not.

"The very first step is to force Israel to wreck the 'wall' and restore the land to its previous condition. If Israel wants a wall, it shouldbe built on the Israeli side of the border."

Fair enough, but does this mean you recognize that Israel has a border? And is entitled to protect it? If so, I have no problem with what you say.

"The second step is to evacuate all the settlements. They are nothing but a land grab. The third step of course is to end ALL the occupation."

I agree vis-a-vis the settlements as part of a comprehensive peace. But what do you mean by ALL the occupation? Is this code word for all of Israel, i.e. going back on your previous paragraph on which you talk about the Israeli side of the border?

"As long as WE FINANCE these, we cannot complain about any action by the Palestinians."

Well, I think we can and SHOULD complain about rocket attacks and suicide bombings and bus and restaurant bombings.

Thanks for taking the time to write.

I'm sorry we disagree but perhaps understanding that two people not connected directly to the problem (at least I am not) can disagree so much, perhaps we will understand that people actually involved in it need a lot of help and understanding to solve it.

A. Handle @November 16, 2007 2:03 PM: "I can understand the seething anger of a Palestinian who feels his land was stolen from him. I can even understand his aim to get it back by any means". I do too, and consider what was done to the Palestinians to be the worse form of terrorism. I also am of the opinion that when you finid terrorism, that is when you are trying to regain your home, you cannot possibly commit terror. In other words, the occupier must leave, without conditions.

"For me, the only solution short of the destruction of Israel (and that surely will mean destruction of a lot more than just Israel) is to treat the Palestinians as human beings and the Israelis as human beings, both entitled to survival and dignity." So far, we (the US) have refused to see and treat the Palestinians as human beings. Let's face it, they are lower than dirt, and the rest of the Arabs tolerated as long as we think thee is a chance they wil submit to Israel. In other words, since we established the first terror there (the creation of Israel), it is incumbent on us to see to it that our attitude changes. The very first step is to force Israel to wreck the 'wall' and restore the land to its previous condition. If Israel wants a wall, it shouldbe built on the Israeli side of the border. The second step is to evacuate all the settlements. They are nothing but a land grab. The third step of course is to end ALL the occupation.

As long as WE FINANCE these, we cannot complain about any action by the Palestinians.

Once again, something baffles you but you baffle me. Let me once again make clear that I am not an Israeli, not a Jew.

When I look at Israel, I see that in the past 50 years, they have created a miracle out of a desert. Their surrounding neighbors, the Arabs have, well, created a desert out of a desert. To be sure without American aid and money, none of this would have been possible.

To be equally sure, with the tremendous shift in wealth, things will change again.

When I look at Jewish people in the US who are in positions of prominence, I have yet to find a Jew who is a doctor but did not graduate from medical school, a Jew who is a lawyer who did not graduate from law school, a Jewish politician who did not win an election by getting more votes than his opponent, a journalist or broadcaster who did not earn his/her way there - sure some may have gotten a break early, but I think that happens in Arab countries as in the US.

I can understand the seething anger of a Palestinian who feels his land was stolen from him. I can even understand his aim to get it back by any means.

As a practical matter, this is not likely to succeed and as a practical matter, Israel, the US, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, etc. can all get together even now and build factories, schools, housing, roads, hospitals, universities, etc. for the Palestinians. It sure would be a better way of spending money than what we have now.

What I cannot understand is why Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Iraq in the past, and other Arab countries found it an appropriate response to say they would destroy Israel. What legitimate basis does any of these countries have or what legitimate basis has any ever had for destroying Israel?

So, Mr. Ettefagh what baffles you about America baffles you because you come from a culture of hate - as is clearly evidenced in your writings. Perhaps there is in the American spirit a sense of not wanting to see wrong perpetrated - that there is something fundamentally wrong about six or seven or more countries ganging up to destroy another.

The consequences are what we see now - a robust Israel able to withstand the aggressive, belligerent and bilious character of its neighbors. However, we don't know if WMD will change that equation.

Perhaps Egypt and Jordan have seen the light permanently, but one never knows.

As for the Jews in America. It is perfectly natural for them to support Israel and I suppose, if it is okay for Arabs and Iranians to work on the destruction of Israel, is it not okay for Jews and other fair-minded people to concentrate on its survival? But you will NEVER understand this because in your mind the hatred is justified, but the kindness of Americans is not.

I feel very sorry for your troubled mind and dubious morality.

Are there Jews who might put the interests of Israel ahead of the US? I'm sure there are. But if you suggest that an American Jew's support of Israel is tantamount to treason, you are really revealing a deep inner sickness.

Yes, I have read Walt & Mearsheimer's original article and may read the book. Yes, I know that sometimes US support of Israel would be better tempered and with more pressure to resolve the Palestinian issue. However,the Palestinians also need leadership in this respect.

Yes, I oppose many of Israel's policies and think a more measured and less aggressive approach in an effort to get peace is appropriate.

Yes, I know that politicians in the US get support from or are opposed by the groups that support Israel - and that it is much safer as a practical money matter to support rather than oppose aid to Israel. But that is how a democracy works. The Arabs too have lobbies, but I think they will learn that lobbying based on hate and destruction works less well than lobbying based on the fear of a nation that it will be destroyed.

Do the Israelis exploit this? Sure they do. But do the Arabs exploit their oil wealth? Ever heard of OPEC? Over $2 TRILLION dollars in the past two years alone.

And yet, isn't it tragic that designating certain organizations as "terrorists" has led to an inability to negotiate? Isn't it tragic that Palestinian "leaders" have so failed their own people that in the last 50 years, there has been a steady decline?

Ultimately, maybe what's in it for America is that we can no longer tolerate seeing 6 million people killed because the Arabs don't like their presence in the Middle East.

What baffles me is that you can't see the hate spewing out of yourself.

For me, the only solution short of the destruction of Israel (and that surely will mean destruction of a lot more than just Israel) is to treat the Palestinians as human beings and the Israelis as human beings, both entitled to survival and dignity.

Mr. Ettefagh, do you think there is the remotest chance that Iran, with its grand history of culture and refinement, some of the greatest poets in the history of the world, can step up and say it will lead the charge to this end? Or will you just spew hate and venom?

I know that this post will generate all sorts of hate-filled responses. So be it. Keep in mind that for me a just solution is two states with dignity for both sides and Israel working with other countries to make that a meaningful economic reality for Palestinians.

And the truth shall set you free....very good article.

Kam-Korder @November 15, 2007 3:05 PM: I, personally, don't care whether anyone calls me anti-semitic. As a matter of fact many have, but when I challenge them to prove it they resort to hand-waiving and other nonsense and eventually back-track. That is because I am not anti-semitic - I simply object to what was done to the Palestinians, with the blind support of my country, for which I have a responsibility since this is a democracy.

However, MANY, definitely most Americans, are afraid of the term. It has beome an effective tool to stiffle disagreement, which is unfortunate because by now, anti-semitism has deteriorated to mean ANY disagreement with anything the government of Israel does. I find it particularly ironic that those most quick to resort to the label are also bigotted and racist towards the Arabs, forgetting that the Arabs are as 'semitic' as the Jews! And when this is pointed out they resort to re-defining what a 'semite' now is (a Jew of course).

True anti-semitism, that is discriminating against Jews because they are Jews, as wel as attributing specific characteristic to 'the Jews' is as wrong as all other kinds of bigotry.

Interesting and true! Why Americans do this?

AMVIENNAVA: What is wrong with being "anti-Semitic?" It is a free choice in a free world. I'm also anti-killing and eating animals for food, but many Semitic people's main diet is this filthy and inhumane habit. Don't forget that both Yaser Afarat and Arial Sheron and all of the Iraqis for that matter are Semites. Can we conclude that President Bush is now ant-Semitic for killing Iraqis? Don't let politicians and special interest groups intimidate you.
Love he/she who loves you, says Rumi.

Kam-Korder: You wonder "How come not too many people dare write about this very important and timely subject?" Because if you disagree with the government of Israel, you are labeled 'anti-semitic', and everyone scurries away. That is how we have allowed a small group to stiffle discussion in our country.

I like the comparison with Napoleon and Russia. It is a very sharp, and correct, observation.

And this time, the world's biggest superpower has been defeated by the same pack of hoods that defeated the soviets in Afghanistan....Al Qaeda and bin Laden! and it is a shame!

Like the writer says, where does national interest end and treason begin?

Right on brother!

Joseph's comments above are very precise.
The article generally asks a question that no body is asking-end of national interest and beginning of treason and what USA gets in return!

The great disgrace of America is and always will be racism. Clearly, we have come within the last one hundred years out (mostly) of a profoundly and openly racist society. Domestically, we have confronted this, often with great difficulty and pain, and not always with complete success.

But when have we ever confronted the racism in our foreign policy? Have we ever considered that our previous disdain for involvement and cooperation with the darker skinned people of the world might not be, uh, wrong? Indeed, we never have. Our foreign policy today has directly evolved from our racist policies of the past, with no scrutiny of which parts of it may have been due solely to that part of us which we now acknowledge as evil. I have complete confidence that a very good predictive model of American foreign policy support could be designed using as input nothing more than the average skin color of the government or organization in question.

And so, because the Palestinians and Arabs are brown, and the Israelis, or at least the predominantly Ashkenazi elite of the Israelis, are white, it is no surprise that, of the two, we support the Israelis.

What do we get in return? What is ever the return of racism? Continued dominance of our "race," perhaps? It would be better if we outgrow this profound evil, but we have not done so.

Dr. Ettefagh's previous article about failed state of Pakistan received over 300 comments. How come not too many people dare write about this very important and timely subject?

I like the one posted by Happy Evolutionist.

Great post, the subject is rarely visited. The subject is alway met with an attitude of how dare you. The truth of the matter any politician can end his career if he does not support Israel and Israeli policies in America.

Does the Israel lobby have too much influence over U.S. decisions?

------> http://www.youpolls.com/details.asp?pid=966

.

Sure. Iran is really America's friend- NOT.

I call for a U.S. constitutional amendment to ban all contacts with Israel and call in all of their debt owed to USA....see how long they will survive on their own!

I, a former Moslem and a happy evolutionists now, used to be romantically involved with a young Jewish co-ed when I was attending college in St. Louis. Needless to say, our relationship broke up because of constant interference from her family, especially her large mother. It was then that I realized that being a Jew is a state of mind and has nothing to do with where you live on this planet. For that matter, you could live on Mars and still walk to your temple on Saturdays.

I started to do some digging and found out that there were really two groups of Jews, the real, i.e. Oriental Jews, the Sephardics, who can trace their ancestral roots to that mythical fellow, Abraham, and hence find themselves in the company of the Arabs, and then there were the Ashkenazis who were European converts many centuries after Christ. These are the real smart ones—many Nobel laureates among them-- and also mostly the troublemakers. Their allegiance is not to the country where they live--they feel like guests everywhere they go--but to the land they have occupied since 1947.

If it were ONLY about the warmongering Israel! The zionists, who incidentally put one of their own in the Justice Department last week, have bigger things in mind.

(The group who got AIPAC's boy Mukasey. in...Schumer, Feinstein, Specter,Lieberman, etc.. Does that suggest anything?)

And this week we get a BIG push again by Jewish columnists at the Post and Times to help New York's Jewish mayor Bloomber buy the US presidency. Full takeover.

DOJ, State, the NSA in the WH and the miserable Bush are all captive. Time people began thinking.

Oh God, it's so insulting.

WHY do we have to pretend that israel wants peace with Palestine?

Israel wants Palestine. And just last month
took 23,000 square acres...just moved in, set up a police station and took over. That makes well over 405 controlled by the grabbers. And a wall.

Nothing in the US papers of course.

The title says it all...what does America get in return? Good article.

Correct. Washington is Israeli-occupied territory!

Bravo!
You have seen thru the whole sham from a distance.

Thank you for sheding light on the true picture. It is time for America's awakening and not get its superpower image tarnished by petty games.

The dragon called "Israel-Lobby" is gaming Washington for imaginary "Israel tactical survival".

Ali Ettefagh is right: The aim is nothing more than shortsighted militarist games, but the “win” remains elusive. Both America and Israel loose.

Bravo, Sir. I will try to find more of your writing. However, I do not follow the Hesse analogy. We are not suffering from an abundance of people seeking wisdom by holding the so-called real world at arms length , but by the corporate corruption of disinterested inquiry.

As an American, it disgusts me that our politicians are serving the interests of another country. By tucking themselve's in Israel's pocket, they have taken our brave troops to illegal wars and God help us if this nasty war they are brewing with Iran happens as well.

Mr. Ettefagh has hit all the right nails on this issue of powerful Israel lobby that has actually reduced America to nothing but a dog on leash ready to used to advance Israel security agenda. I have never witnessed a country reduced to this pathetic status that is at odds with its stature on world stage. Israel is hellbent on milking the US till it drop dead. Those dying in Iraq to protect Israel are sons and daughters of American families.
What is Israel is doing is nothing short of the system that apartheid regime instituted in South Africa to keep the majority of their population from enjoying freedom. If the world eagerly confronted and overcame apartheid, why shouldn't we do the same to afford the Palestinians the same decency of freedom of movement and pursuit of their daily activities without having to show a pass.
Jews of all people should no better because of what they endured in fascist Germany! They are doing exactly the same thing that the SS did to them to the Palestinian people. The Palestinian are living in huge concentration camps and their land has been turned into a mini-heaven for Israeli immigrants. It is a shame that America has become involved in protecting this evil and cruel act ever committed in human history. We should get out of Middle East and let Israel see what will happen if it maintain its current course. No number of nuclear bombs will stop a determined group of people willing to regain their freedom and dignity.

Such sloppy rambling answer mostly quite non sequitur to the lobbying issue. I expect such stuff from Miklos Vamos making a literary hash of historical analysis but from a businessman. Mr. Ettefagh, take a few more minutes or a couple less drinks the next time you answer PostGlobal's call

Israel simply has no motivation for peace until the USA puts pressure on her. The billions she receives from the USA every year, in addition to the most advanced weaponry and military equipment, has completely titled the balance of military power in the Middle East in her favor. On top of that, you take Israel's estimated 200 plus nuclear weapons along with her Army, and the equation is simple. If we want land, if we want settlements in the territories, we will take the land and build the settlements. Who is going to stop us? On top of that you (USA), by giving us (Israel) the money for all this, have shown you agree with us and support us. As for the Palestinians, for Israel, they are a nuisance and a problem to be "squashed." They are people without any rights and any freedoms, and it is going to stay that way.