Jorge, 800.000 Arab Jews and 650.000 Arab Palestinians left their homes as a consequence of the 1948 war. The Jews were welcomed, mostly in Israel but also in France and the USA. The Palestinians had nowhere to go, their Arab brothers didn't want them, even now Egypt does not want Gaza back and Jordan does not want the west bank back.

You seem to me to be so filled with hatred towards the Jews. Have you ever met any? How can you hate Einstein the scientist or Vladimir Horowitz the brilliant pianist? Your hatred extends to a group of millions of very different people, it is irrational. Your write so well so your mind is ok, then why the hatred?

Your hatred colours your world so strongly that you think I am the hating person. You place words in my mouth that I never spoke or wrote down, if you read all the above without emotion, you will see that clearly. I don't discriminate. Every human being, everthing in this God created universe is divine, you included. You have a good command of words but you are lost in your hatred.

Maybe I am a Muslim, or a Jew, maybe a Christian. I do believe in God and the only comfort I have is that one day this world will be redeemed from injustice and deceit. God doesn't care about our hatred, but cares about you and me because we are his children.

Your calls to reason and humanity fall rather flatly when one considers that you do not equate the suffering of Palestinians with that of jews. You decry what you call a "holocaust" because of unwarranted murder, racism, and theft of property and land... and yet, you believe the state of Israel has a right to exist, a state which exists on the basis of gross theft of land and wholesale slaughter.

You give lip-service to pan-humanism, but you are in reality a Zionist and a jew before a humanist. You believe that jews are special, the eternal victims of history, and deserving of their stolen territory at all costs.

This puts you firmly in the same category as the Nazis you decry... with the added distinction of being grossly hypocritical.

Denounce the state of Israel and urge the return of rightful land to the Palestinians. Until you do so, you are a hypocrite and your appeals for world-peace are purely a sycophantic pretext for what is essentially a very Nazi type of self-pity and self-aggrandizement.

Do you decry the Nazi theft of jewish property? Then decry the jewish theft of Palestinian property.

Do you decry the slaughter of jews at the hands of Nazis? Then decry the slaughter of Palestinians at the hands of jews.

Do you decry the Nazi concept of Lebensraum and the theft of land from jews? Then decry the jewish concept of Eretz Israel and the theft of land from Palestinians.

Otherwise, your arguments for peace and understanding are nothing but pretext and hypocrisy.

Joe, David, Jorge, Ali and anyone else who at this late date still reads this:

I am posting anonymously for a good reason, Jorge, our world has become a sad place in which freedom of expression is no longer the self evident right it once was. People have been killed for voicing their opinion, but the post allows me to post in all freedom without revealing my identity, and it allows me to be much more incisive than I can otherwise be.

But Jorge, there is a limit to the freedom of speech; pornography is protected under the freedom of speech amendment but child pornography isn't. And you know why. For the same reason, antisemitism holds no first amendment type protection in many European countries, because it is wrong, vile, and can only lead to suffering.

Joe, your grief is mine; antisemitism is ignorance, the supposition that anyone is less because of their birth is anathema to us, it stands out like the train to Auschwitz, and we cannot fail to notice it and pull people by the sleeve and ask "don't you see it? it's happening again!" I can't believe that people willfully subscribe to racism, how can one hate black people once you befriend one? How can one hate all Arabs once you've been invited to an Arab weddings? Hatred is the enemy, and the only thing we have to fear is fear itself. Still, the awareness within us should be given free reign.

David, your response has warmed my heart. Postglobal is a fantastic initiative and even though the seas are rough you will be able to sail this ship along a solid course. Don't forget to listen to the wind, ever more depends on your newspaper, because everyone is reading it.

Oh, and one last thing....

I have not, will not and cannot, justify any killings whether they are Jews or Palestinians.

You mistake my writing again sir.

Kindly review what I say about Mutual Recognition.

I have never said that I condoned any killings - full stop - there is a right and a wrong - 2 wrongs do not = 1 right.

The killing must stop!

I quote you -

"Europeans retaliated against the jews for systematically stealing wealth and skills over centuries, to the detriment of their host nations and peoples."

The Post, prompted by jvd70 answered you -
I quote the Post - "The Holocaust was a crime, for which people were punished. It wasn't a "retaliation."

I quote you -

"Now America is faced with the same problem which plagued Europe for centuries... a superficially "assimalted" minority who have in reality detrimental political goals and are systematically leeching society of its resources and skills."

I answer - Is not the above an example of racism?

I quote you -

The jews, in fact, have no claim to Israel and thus no claim to land, peace, or freedom from terrorism. They cannot find solutions to their problems because they are the origins of all of their own problems. The holocaust should have taught them that lesson. You can't blame people for wanting to rid themselves of a source of conflict and social malaise."

I answer you - Is this not racist?

I quote you -

"When the supply of American money and arms run out, Israel will have to face the music of history... again.

... and it will be their own fault... again."

I answer you - What do you mean Israel had to "face the music of history" don't you mean the Jews? Don't you really mean to say it will be the Jews own fault for bringing about their attempted extermination.......again?

I quote you -

"But let's not put the Holocaust on a pedestal and declare it a sacred cow. Other peoples have suffered, others have lost, and others have causes that they consider sacred. "

I answer you - Yes, other people have suffered and been murdered - Terrible crimes against humanity are committed all the time by people of all races and religions, none of them are justified, none of them are right!

However, the systematic extermination of the Jews by the Nazi regime during WW2 was unlike anything seen in history before, and I pray that it is something we never see again. Factories upon factories, production like automatic processing for killing masses of men, women and children. Experiments conducted on live humans, freezing people to death, boiling them to death - these are just minor level atrocities, I am sick to my stomach when I think of some of the graffic images I've seen - It is a subject I have studied quite well -

YES, I say the holocaust should be put on a pedestal for all to see how depraved mankind can become. YES, I say remember, lest us not forget. To ensure it never happens again. You may like to draw comparisons, but none quite equate -

You may twist and turn back n forth your arguement sir, but one thing remains constant through all of your postings. You are a racist and your views / opinions should not be on such a well regarded platform -

Finally, if you have taken insult to my postings, then I am sorry for you - and I quote myself to you from before -

"You seem to have a pretty negative take on life Jorge and a very compassionless style of writing.

I expect you to reply to this with an attempt at sarcasm as you seem to like to have the last word. Similar to myself I guess.

Whatever happened to hope?

Don't you hope or pray that the madness would stop?

Why is it that with all the oil wealth in the Middle East that America and Europe give significantly more to the Palastinians than their Arab neighbours do?

The answer in my humble opinion is hope, they hope that there can be an answer - possibly in some form of mutual recognition. That seems to be pretty amicable, put the past behind and recognize each others right to excist and live in peace.

Don't lose hope Jorge."

Perhaps there is no hope for people like you - I guess we have to live with the likes of you, and yes, I was perhaps wrong to ask for The Post to remove you. Maybe better leave you spout your semi articulated hatered.

... additionally, I would like to comment on the part of my postings with which you have taken the greatest issue:

"In the 20th century, Europeans retaliated against the jews for systematically stealing wealth and skills over centuries, to the detriment of their host nations and peoples."

Several posters, including a moderator, have expressed the opinion that I am crossing a line by saying that. However, to say that the Holocaust was simply a sporadic crime of passion without justification is intellectually dishonest. The Nazis (as well as nearly every European people, who passively observed without reacting, and in some cases even openly aided the Nazis) had a deep mistrust of jews and a desire to rid their populations of jews and their influence. The question is why? Europe has a long history of sophistication in thought and deed. You cannot dismiss what you call the "Holocaust" as an unjustifiable insanity. Every action has a catalyst, and every crime has a motive. Whether justified or not, the perpetrators of the Holocaust had a motivation that they considered righteous. If you disagree with them, then say so, but do not attempt to stifle free speech by censoring this debate.

I have humored and will continue to humor your justifications for the systematic slaughter of Palestinians, the theft of their land and property, and the debasement of their culture and cause, with teeth firmly clenched, but I have humored them. I ask only for the same courtesy.

If you will not accept any justification of the "holocaust," then do not justify any killings, including that of Palestinians by jews.

Joe, at no point have I insulted you or anyone personally, nor have I dismissed anyone's person or argument with insulting or dismissive language. I pointed out to jvd70 that Wikipedia is not considered a definitive source of information, but I do not think that qualifies as an insult.

I have also tried to justify my comments with constructed arguments, with which you may or may not agree.

If you strongly disagree, then say so and refute my arguments with your own, but please do not attack me personally. And most importantly, for the sake of civility and maturity, I would humbly suggest that you not stoop to asking the moderators to stop me from posting because you don't like my arguments.

If you re-read my comments, you will see that I actually have never answered any of your questions or responded to any of your points. The reason for that is not any desire to slight you, but rather because you have referred to me personally as "ignorant," "sick in the head," and "racist." You have referred to my beliefs--which I hold very dear--as "nonsense," "vileness," "garbage," and "gutter level."

You have made stingingly insulting comments directed at me personally such as, "You seem to have a pretty negative take on life Jorge and a very compassionless style of writing" and "Take a read, its a very short learning page from a source, since you are so into your "sources" called "Kidport" pretty educational I find and designed for people of all abilities / ages to read. ;-)"

That is why I haven't responded to your comments or questions, Joe. You have yet to write an e-mail directed at me that has not insulted me personally and graphically and derided my arguments with debasing language. If I do not respond to you, it is because I choose demure and will not stoop to trading insults.

By your own standard, the PostGlobal rules for posting would find you in gross error: "User reviews and comments that include profanity or personal attacks or other inappropriate comments or material will be removed from the site."

Furthermore, rather than debate my points and arguments, you are asking the moderators to use their power to stop me from posting. I have, in fact, read and followed the rules of the forum and will continue to do so.

Look... I understand that you do not agree with my views on Israel or the plight of the jews, but you should not let that cloud your judgement to the point where you are taking gross liberties in insulting me personally and debasing yourself by asking the moderator to stop me from posting things with which you do not personally agree.

Infact,

I think taking a full copy of this blog and using it as a perfect example of how, on such an educated and well respected forum as The Washington Post. Dialogue / debate can be completely reduced to gutter level, by one respondant who sows seads of hate.

This was an eye opener for me I'm sad to say.

David Ignatius, PostGlobal are you serious going to let this guy continue to type on The Washington Post?

I've read and re-read and re-read his various comments, they are aggressive, racist, contradictory and non explanitory.
He doesn't answer many of the questions posed him, simply prefering to just spit out more vileness.

His true feelings come out over his various postings, ending with a show of nothing but hate of Jews and sad indoctinated anti-semitic teachings, they are not even logical.

I've lost my appetite to answer the garbage he writes, this forum has now been reduced to the nasty utterings of racist propoganda. I initially wanted to edit and copy some of his comments above to show other readers of his underlying hatered. There are just too many!

I would ask new readers to this forum to view from the top down and see for themselves where this person starts from and ends up -

There are certain things in history that remain completely and utterly and totally out of order - That should never be forgotten and should never have attempts by anyone to try to justify - There simply IS NO JUSTIFICATION!

"User reviews and comments that include profanity or personal attacks or other inappropriate comments or material will be removed from the site."

"Finally, we will take steps to block users who violate any of our posting standards, terms of use or privacy policies or any other policies governing this site."

?

Everyone's comments are valid, I am sure. Let's call the Holocaust a crime.

While we're at it, let's also call the 1947 massacre of Palestinian children by jews at Deir Yassin a crime. Let's call the killing of 4 million people in Southeast Asia in the 1960's and 70's by the US Army a crime, as well.

But let's not put the Holocaust on a pedestal and declare it a sacred cow. Other peoples have suffered, others have lost, and others have causes that they consider sacred. If we are free to debate whether the US Army's actions were justified or not (and some will say they were), and if we can debate whether the Israeli Army's actions were justified or not (and some will say they were), then lets not relegate the actions that some call the "Holocaust" to a gilded "out of bounds" area and sidestep around it like some sort of religious taboo.

That defeats the point of debate and free speech and makes this forum look like a mouthpiece for the state of Israel.

Sick in the head springs to mind

I have been reading the comments on Ali's blog with interest, and many of them are the kind of blunt debate and discussion we want to encourage. We are not in the censorship business. That said, I agree with jvd70 that the following comment was over the line: "Europeans retaliated against the jews for systematically stealing wealth and skills over centuries, to the detriment of their host nations and peoples." The Holocaust was a crime, for which people were punished. It wasn't a "retaliation."

I have to post again because I am disturbed and feel i must explain. I actually would not ask for Jorge's piece to be removed since it so clearly exposes this mindset, but on the other hand I find it very disturbing to see such terrible antisemitism, but this time see it totally go unopposed.

"Europeans retaliated against the jews for systematically stealing wealth and skills over centuries, to the detriment of their host nations and peoples."

That is antisemitism in a most horrible form, according to this line of thought, 'Jews' are 'systematically stealing wealth and skills'; crime is not an individual thing, it is inherent to being Jewish. This line of reasoning doesn't even need to deny the holocaust because it is far worse, this line of reasoning is seeing the holocaust as 'retaliation' against a Jewish trait. It is this kind of thinking that in fact caused the holocaust and is behind so much hatred and terror in today's world. I feel the Washingtonpost editors do have an obligation not to censor it but to expose it. I call on them to do so.

It's right there in plain view for everyone to see. Which is perhaps why it should be there, and give people something to consider that it is very relevant in this debate.

Jorge, I quote you:

"In the 20th century, Europeans retaliated against the jews for systematically stealing wealth and skills over centuries, to the detriment of their host nations and peoples."

I find that very disturbing. You are calling the holocaust retaliation for Jewish crimes. You have in my opinion violated the discussion guidelines, to wit:

"Likewise, you may not post content that is libelous, defamatory, obscene, abusive, that violates a third party's right to privacy, that otherwise violates any applicable local, state, national or international law, or that is otherwise inappropriate."

I think you may have violated at least French and/or German law.

Jorge you say that Israel is a myth but Palestine isn't? You should read "Imagined Communities" by Benedict Anderson. Every nation only exists in the mind, it is collective fiction, all of it; birds fly over borders, the Earth doesn't try to define nor keep them intact.

When the Ottomans held sway over most of the Arab world the people considered themselves in ethnic terms, tribal terms or what city/area they were from. Their overarching identity was more religious than national; under the Ottoman empire there was a certain brand of nationalism only in Egypt because people identified with its history. But Ancient Egypt is the river Nile and knew no borders like they are now drawn in the sand.

The Jews are a semitic people, and all through the Ottoman era they lived in the Ottoman empire, also in that part which is now called Israel, most that lived somewhere else were forcibly evicted often after 1948 and they now for the most part also live in Israel. More "Arab Jews" were evicted than "Palestinian Arabs". They are like the Palestinians: a relocated Semitic people. The Jews that came from Europe have an unbroken and unquestionable historic tradition that traces them back to Israel. You can deny people their history but when you do you lose your credibility.

The Arab nations were not reeling from the collapse, because there simply were no nations in the Ottoman empire, nor were there nations in the German or Russian empire. The Arab nations are colonial entities, created by France and Britain after WW1, thereby conveniently taking over the Ottoman administrative centers and drawing lines in the sand. Hence, Arab nationalism is its own brand of nationalism.

Do the Palestinians have a right to land, peace, freedom? Yes and time and again the Arab nations have used the Palestinians as a weapon and propaganda tool against the Jewish state. In the area people are almost all Semites, Arabs and Jews alike; they aren't all Muslem, they are Muslem, Christian and Jewish.

You seem to disenfranchise the Jewish people from their land, you ignore potent arguments in their favour. Jorge, you seem to be twisting history and only people that don't know history can possibly believe your line of reasoning. I feel you are consciously propagandizing the issue. Your level of abstraction seems to lift one group out, the Jews, and disenfranchise them entirely.

You do the Palestinian cause no favor whatsover with you line of reasoning.

If Israel is such a promised land for the Jewish people, so how come millions are still living outside of Israel? The reality is that the life in Israel is very dangerous, unpleasant and harsh and big fat Jews in the US and elsewhere cannot leave the comfort of their homes and migrate to the "promised land." Put your money where your mouth is, dude, and pack your bags and go there. You will be much happier.

... and it will be their own fault... again.

You seem to assume that the success of Israel has something to do with their superiority over their neighbors, Danny. Jews had several key advantages which brought them success. You could compare the relative success of Israel, in a superficial manner, to that of post-war Sweden in Europe. You will note that Sweden did not face Nazi occupation, war on their own territory, or destruction of their economic and industrial base. In the aftermath of WWII, Sweden was poised to take advantage of a booming reconstruction effort and a new era of international trade. Many of their European neighbors enjoyed no such advantages. Jews had similar advantages: a freshly "acquired" territory; skills and wealth taken from Europe, American money, etc. Do not forget that most modern Arab states at the time were still reeling from the effects of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, colonial partitioning, and the subsequent collapse of the colonial empires that partitioned them only decades beforehand.

But to what do we really owe the success of Israel? For one, it must be noted that the jews have nothing which they have created and over which they have any domain of real ownership. The land itself is Palestine. Not simply the Gaza Strip... but all of modern Israel is Palestine. I know this is hard to understand for those among us who were raised to believe that the state of Israel is a destiny. The reality of Palestine isn't reflected in maps because maps and borders are political creations. Jews are inhabiting Palestine... the state of Israel is a myth. A politically accepted myth, but a myth nonetheless.

History of the last century has ramifications for the 21st century. In the 20th century, Europeans retaliated against the jews for systematically stealing wealth and skills over centuries, to the detriment of their host nations and peoples. Please remember that it was not only Hitler's Germany that was glad to be rid of the jews. The Poles, French, Czechoslovakians, Ukrainians, and quite frankly every other people of Europe welcomed the end of what they considered to be a harmful and parasitic element in their midsts.

Now America is faced with the same problem which plagued Europe for centuries... a superficially "assimalted" minority who have in reality detrimental political goals and are systematically leeching society of its resources and skills. The Palestinians are paying for the bogus non-crime of being second-class citizens in their own stolen country.

Danny, you and the other pro-Israeli posters constantly make a fundamental mistake in your argumentation. You assume the legitimacy of the state of Israel and the jews' claims thereto. The jews, in fact, have no claim to Israel and thus no claim to land, peace, or freedom from terrorism. They cannot find solutions to their problems because they are the origins of all of their own problems. The holocaust should have taught them that lesson. You can't blame people for wanting to rid themselves of a source of conflict and social malaise. For better or worse, that is what jews were perceived to be in Europe... and that is what they are perceived to be in the Middle East.

This is real food for thought, Danny. When the supply of American money and arms run out, Israel will have to face the music of history... again.

As Jorge and Joe go back and forth, let me revert back and highlight the idiotic nature of the original article.
Israel is a land surrounded by hostile enemies, without arid land or oil, and in 58 years has outpaced in terms of economic, scientific and social growth its neighbors who are blessed with abundant natural resources. Yes, I want to be friends with these people. They have figured out what it takes to go forward - not backwards.
Yes, America has a demand for oil, but look at the facts. We import only about 15% from the region. Most of America's oil comes from the U.S. itself, Canada and Venezuela. Don't villify the United States for the demands of Europe, Asia and specifically China.
"Palestine" is an occupied territory? Not anymore. Isreal abandoned the settlements (as they should have) and now "Palestine" has no one to blame but themselves.
Let's go back to the Partition plan of 1947. Back then the Arabs wanted all of the land or war. They willingly chose war. Barak gave peace a second chance in 1998 and the "Palestinian" leader chose war - again.
Is the author really suggesting UN peacekeepers and using Cyprus, Bosnia or Kosovo as examples of somthing good. Get real pal - and open your own checkbook. The UN is an organization that elected Libya chair of the Human Rights Commission. What a joke.
But what I find most interesting is an anecdote I read recently while Israel was conducting its recent operations. A hole was opened in the wall seperating Gaza and Egypt and the Eqyptians and "Palestinians" formed a human wall to keep the people from fleeing into Egypt. Even Egypt doesn't want these people. Nor do the Syrians, Iraqis, Iranians, Jordanians, Saudis or Lebanese. Here exist an Arab population unwanted by even their own people for the last 50 or so years who can do nothing of their own except bemoan their fate and lob bombs of hatred, both real and symbolic. These people must unblock their minds and figure out what it takes to go forward.

You seem to have a pretty negative take on life Jorge and a very compassionless style of writing.

I expect you to reply to this with an attempt at sarcasm as you seem to like to have the last word. Similar to myself I guess.

Whatever happened to hope?

Don't you hope or pray that the madness would stop?

Why is it that with all the oil wealth in the Middle East that America and Europe give significantly more to the Palastinians than their Arab neighbours do?

The answer in my humble opinion is hope, they hope that there can be an answer - possibly in some form of mutual recognition. That seems to be pretty amicable, put the past behind and recognize each others right to excist and live in peace.

Don't lose hope Jorge.

In my humble opinion, there can be no peace and there can be no lasting negotiation for the simple reason that both sides are unable to move from their respective positions.

My prediction is that America will eventually realize that it gives more money in foreign aid to Israel than to any other nation, including needy developing nations, and gets only contempt and terrorism in return. America will realize that having Israel as a partner is never profitable and leads only to an imbalanced parasite-host relationship. America will eventually stop allowing Israel to drain American resources, either because of diminishing US influence and power later in this century or because of lessening tolerance for Israel's influence on US policy and society.

This will leave Israel to contend with the problems they have created in the Middle East and the crimes they have systematically committed against Palestinians. The results will not be pleasant.

The blame game never works. It's time to move past "Who's the Biggest Victim?" and start getting down to serious negotiation. The problem lies with both sides, both sides need to take a hard look and admit they won't have their own way with this. It comes down to the key to all marriages and partnerships...compromise. We need to stop wasting time debating who did what to whom and whose fault it is. Let's start today with where do we go now and how can we make this work.

An intellectual arguement is much more productive than an emotional one. It's good to have passion about something, but don't let it cloud your ability to negotiate or act as a mediator for the greater good.

George Courtney writes, above, of a hypothetical "break away" of Hispanics in the US southwest, which would force non-Hispanics in Texas, New Mexico and California into resettlement camps. He explains that it would only be natural for the "good ole boys" pushed aside to take up arms, "Red Dawn"-style, and fight to get those areas "back into the United States".

Colorful (though missing Arizona), but a flawed comparison. Most significantly, it leaves out any reason for the creation of the Israeli state other than the claim that areas "belonged to them from ancient times". It also ignores what commentators often call "facts on the ground". Aside from the initial UN partition, and Israel's recognition by almost all the countries in the world, several wars over the nearly six decades have established the physical existence of a sovereign nation with more than seven million inhabitants, over one million of whom aren't Jews. There's a country there; there are millions of people who were born and raised there. Neither organized war between the neighboring states or the "good ole boys'" own violent action have - or could, now - destroyed Israel. It exists.

In order to compare any situation in North America, you have to look at the dispossession of the people who lived there before Europeans arrived. Were they heroes or terrorists for fighting against invaders to keep their land? The United States, Canada, and Mexico now exist, and aren't going away. George, if you're in this hemisphere, you may want to give your house back to whomever lived there before the countries were established and recognized by the rest of the world.

Or you could just focus on what these articles were about - ways to mediate the current dispute. Not the entire conflict between Israel and Palestine; just what the commentators were asked to do.

Get rid of the religious zealots -- Muslim, Jew, and Christian (whatever order you prefer) -- the problem will be solved!

Shame on all the parties for the killing and destruction that is going on. Stop your pathetic excuses and finger pointing! Who cares about past history -- we only are alive today -- so stop the killing and excuses!

There have always been Hispanics living in the Southwest of this country as long as we have been a nation. If they became a majority strong enough to break away taking Texas, New Mexico and California into a seperate nation and if they forced a large number of non-Hispanics into settlements and took their land for resisting resettlement would we react?
And if they claimed new settlements in Colorado and Arizona as having belonged to them from ancient times would there be any good ole American boys who's family lost their family farm take up arms against them? This is the core argument like it or not.
We'd all like peace, but there would be non-Hispanics from the above states who would fight to get these states back into the United States.
I recall a movie called "Red Dawn" I believe where the U.S. was invaded by Russians and Chinese coming in from Canada and Mexico. The teenagers who attacked the Russians were considered heroes for defending their country. Of course the Russians called them terrorist.
George

I think we should ask Mr. Steven Spielberg to make a motion picture about Sabra and Shatila massacre and place it on the flip side of his DVD, Munich. Perhaps both sides can come to their senses and stop feeding the Military Industrial Complex, hence placing the rest of the world in danger, by being so stupid and stubborn.

Its not in the Palestinian leadership's interest to make peace with Israel. Until it is, don't expect any readiness for peace.

Jorge, I do say you have changed your tone somewhat.

How nice to have a more articulated response from you than your initial aggressive mail where you state clearly -

"The Arabs started the war alright... and do you know what? I think they should finish it."

Much more civilized to debate now some facts with you - Rather than contend with the person who initially wrote that that land of Isreal was "mythical".

Firstly, you open your new dialogue with a quote from my initial article - you respond by calling it "simply incorrect"

Take a look at this web site sir -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/uk_confidential/1089694.stm

Its a BBC new article - I think we can all safely say that they are not biased in their reporting.

King Hussein: Survived crisis

"While the UK chose not to intervene in King Hussein's favour, events on the ground went his way and his military launched a successful campaign against the Palestinians, driving them out of his territory."

This military campaign is still called by Palestinians as Black September, when they remember how many men, women and children were massacred by the Jordanians. The same Arab country who had initially offered them safety.

September 1970 is known as the Black September in Arab history and sometimes is referred to as the "era of regrettable events". It was a month when Hashemite King Hussein of Jordan moved to quash an attempt by Palestinian organizations to overthrow his monarchy. The violence resulted in heavy civilian Palestinian casualties. Armed conflict lasted until July 1971 with the expulsion of the PLO and thousands of Palestinians to Lebanon.

Okay, with that said.

Let me take your next point about the Boston Tea Party, comparing that to hijaking passenger aircraft in the modern age -

I simply say, what hope is there for mankind if such parallels are drawn and believed?

Such utter nonsense I find it somewhat amusing, sad and frustrating all at the same time, that I have to address this point.

http://www.kidport.com/RefLib/UsaHistory/AmericanRevolution/TeaParty.htm

Take a read, its a very short learning page from a source, since you are so into your "sources" called "Kidport" pretty educational I find and designed for people of all abilities / ages to read. ;-)

You refer to the terrorist actions of hijaking civilian passenger aircraft as my "nemesis" - YES, CORRECT at last some sense!

Not only MY nemesis, but the nemesis of ALL peace loving human beings.

The same kind of nemesis who hijaked on 9/11 civilian passenger airlines and crashed them into civilian office towers!

Compare that to the Boston Tea Party? How perverse!

When Yassir Arafat was offered 98% of all his demands by Ehud Barak. Including half of Jerusalem, the holiest of Jewish city's. A city where the Jewish High Temple was destroyed and desecrated, and then ontop of which a Mosque was built.
Arafat said no to peace.

Why did he say no to peace?

What happened after he said no is what we are left with now, this intifada with deaths and terror.

Why did Arafat say no, when he had almost ALL, 98% of everything he asked for? To most Arab countries this was the time for peace. To most Muslims and Jews this was a time to put conflict and intollerance to an end. What a chance, wasted!

Maybe because he realized that would be the end of him, he never wanted peace, how could he. He profitted by $800 million + personally from terror actions on Israel.

It was in his business interests to continue.

Oh and I hear your mind thinking now, "BUT, it was Ariel Sharon's visit to Jerusalem, the remains of the Western Wall of the Jewish High Temple, that provoked the Palestinians into Intefada".

Why cannot a Jew walk in peace, freely in his own country to a holy site thousands of other people walk to freely on a daily basis, without rocks being thrown at him.

Pre-meditated? On both sides, yes maybe.

Sharon, showed the Israeli public a rude awakening. He showed them, and then won the next election, ousting Barak the peace broker, that no matter how much you give it wont be enough to stop the violence.

To stop the violene Jorge, understanding of facts, profit from terror, and mutual recognition are needed.

JVD70, you are most eloquent.

The objective is to find a solution that stops people killing each other. When you indulge in an 'I'm write you're wrong' argument you're missing the point.

That's particularly true when you generalize a nation. We have the right to punish Palestinians (or Israelis) today for something that other Palestians (or Israelis) did in the past.

Everybody resents being punished or blamed for something they didn't have anything to do with, didn't know about and couldn't have affected if they did.

Jorge, you dismiss my argument by questioning my source, wikipedia.org. But all the data I extracted from it is confined to the simple historical and mathematical fact that:

More Jews were evicted from the Arab world than Palestinian Arabs were evicted from Israeli controlled Palestine in 1948.

Are you disputing that? I quote wikipedia as a historical source, what are your sources and can you quote anything that is more authoritative than wikipedia.org? Be mindful here, Israel did in fact absorb many Jews from Arab countries and Arab countries did in fact not accord the Palestinian Arabs any legal status and instead chose to concentrate them in refugee camps at the borders with Israel.

As long as Jews live in Israel they will seek security and they will seek to be the majority in the land under their control; you can also google the anti Jewish sentiment in the Arab press and realize that it would be an impossible task for Israel to absorb millions Palestinian refugees while retaining their state and sense of national identity. And Jorge, suppose Israel were to allow that and some ruling would send all Jews back to where they came from, would those millions of Jewish Arabs like defense minister Peretz be welcomed to their heritage and property in the Arab world?

Seek to debate the point of my argument, not just the source of my information.

Thank you for your response, Joe. You wrote, "The only real massacre of Palestinians was committed by the Jordanians - They killed thousands of men, women and children."

I am sorry, but that is simply incorrect. There are two sides to every story. Look up the massacre of Palestinian children by Israeli troops at Deir Yassin in 1947. Look up Sebra and Chiatila, where Israeli soldiers stationed 200 yards away supervised a Lebanese militia which slaughtered between 3500 and 5000 Palestinian refugees.

If the Palestinians have resorted to what you call "terrorism" in their search for freedom from jewish oppression, perhaps it is not as utterly unjustified as you may assume. The line crossed from "terrorist" to "revolutionary" or "freedom fighter," or vice versa, is a thin one.

Would you consider the American revolutionaries who instigated the Boston Tea Party to have been "terrorists?" They had no country and essentially used violence to hijack British vessels, destroy property, and terrorize passengers in order to show the world the injustice of Britain's crown policies toward the American colonies. How does the Boston Tea Party substantively differ from the airline hijackings of decades past, instigated by your nemesis? Have the Palestinians no right to a voice and no claim to freedom from injustice and oppression?

To jvd70, thank you for the link, but I must humbly remind you that there exist more trustworthy references than wikipedia, although I am admittedly myself guilty of indulging in a quick wiki-search from time to time. A wikipedia entry's accuracy and objectivity, however, are often debatable.

Jorge, please consider reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War, it is appreciated on all sides to be a relatively neutral account of the 1948 war.

When you get to "Demographic outcome" you will notice how more Jews left or were forced to leave Arab nations than Arabs that left or were forced to leave Israel. That part of history, the absorption of Jews by Israel and the complete failure to absorb Arabs by Arab nations, is a piece of the puzzle that many commentators fail to mention, and once they fail to mention it, it is because they either are biased or ignorant.

Ali, I do not know how many people died in the Iran Iraq war, but isn't each one of them one too many? And yet you write "The latest rounds of violence hinge on a poor excuse that an Israeli soldier has been kidnapped or killed."

Should Israel just give up its soldiers for dead then? Is that what you are asking? Israel should buy the approval of the world with more dead Jews?

Whomever Jorge is typifies the problem - in his ignorance and aggressive comments.

The problem is that so many lies are so ingrained and widely propogated that now people actually believe them -

The Jews were always occupants of the land in question, they have been there for centuries - If the reader above had any idea what so ever of history he would know that. Infact, its such an overwhelingly glaring error on his part, that it undoes his whole arguement. Even as late as the end of the 19th century some Zionist Jews purchases swamp land legitimatly, legally from their Arab owners and turned that swap land into healthy fertile soil.

The only real massacre of Palestinians was committed by the Jordanians - They killed thousands of men, women and children.

There was never any agreement between the Israeli's and the Arabs, both post creation of the State of Israel and with some Muslim States still to this day.... Why, well you could say that the fact the Arabs post 1947 would not settle for anything other than "complete and utter destruction of the State of Israel". They would not allow a two State solution as indeed the Israeli's had suggested..

Oh and while I am on the subject, maybe one should also consider on which side were the Palestinians during the WW2. They were very much proponents of the Hitler master plan for complete inhialation of the Jewish race. With this in mind, the fact that the new born Israel would even consider a two State solution on mutual recognition basis is an illustration of the desire for peace.

Recently, just months ago, when ALL Israeli settlers ( occupiers if you wish to use that term even ) and their remnants were removed from Gaza. What happened? home made missiles were fired into Sovereign Israeli land, by militants or shall we call them terrorists? Provocation? No why call that an act of provocation, after all the Israeli's shouldn't have been there in the first place. That was just an act of frustration I suppose? Whatever you want to call it, if the Israeli's show one tiny sign of giving, its never enough, never enough for some who only know one thing. They are indoctinated by lies, by falsehoods perpetrated over what can now only be considered generations.

How many Israeli kids sub the age of 10 do you see in army uniform carrying fake guns, or dressed up to immitate suicide bombers chanting hate messages to the Palestinian people? Let's just reverse this imagine now.... Indoctinated to hate? You go figure!

After 1948 the Arabs started the war which began the whole conflict? You are correct. The Arabs started the war... that is, after the jews massacred Palestinian families in a Zionist reverie, forced Palestinian families off their land and into refugee camps, built an army to defend a country to which they had no claim, and threatened to reclaim the borders of an ancient and mythical Israel, which hadn't existed in two millenia.

The Arabs started the war alright... and do you know what? I think they should finish it.

Solidarity with Palestine here, all the way...

The real problem is that conflicts pay -- and they pay very well. The Israeli-Arab Conflict is one of many whereby the flow of foreign aid into a country should be tracked and publicly debated. Everyone knows how much money previously flowed to the Palestinian Authority, but how much has been contributed to the Israeli government? Whose hands does this money pass through and how does this match up with the products that are purchased? Not much attention in our media was paid to the corruption scandal that implacted PM Ariel Sharon and resulted in the actual conviction of his son. And what about the fact that the Israeli version of the attorney general has been investigating Minister Avigdor Lieberman -- who also has mafia connections? It is good to know where the money has fallen through the cracks with the Palestinian government, but sad to say ALL the governments in the region (and in other regions in the developing world) suffer from too much of a cash infusion that is not accounted for nor transparent how it is "distributed." Time to change this and then we will see more stability worldwide. Can't buy arms and weapons if you don't have available funds...

You say go back to the UNSCOP report of 1947 and put the original UN Partition Plan back on the drawing board. You obviously forget that the day after implementation in 1948, the arabs started the war which began the whole conflict...

Of course..the obligatory "the US is there for oil and it has been controlled by the Jews." In case the writer forgot, much has happened since the 1947 partition plan not the least of which Arab refusal of such plan and the addition of millions of people and new building in the area. While we are going back 60 years in time, since Lebanese are still killing each other and Syria is no better, why not give these lands back to the Turks and the French?

As to collective punishment, government ministers are acting as spokemen for the kidnappers and that is to be ignored? Would the writer feel better if Israel bombed every PA office, building, barracks, Hamas house and factory and to hell with any civilian casualties -- as they surely have the right to do in return for those who would bomb a sovereign country? The governement is bombing another country with more than a thousand rockets and that should be ignored?? I have a suggestion. The US should bomb the Iranian nuclear sites and the Iranians should say nothing since, after all, what's the big deal with being bombed by another party? And, should the Iranians do something (which their first inclination is to try to kill some more Jews), why that would be "collective punishment" since, after all, it wasn't anyone but that sole pilot who did anything to the Iranians. Think this panelist would agree? Didn't think so.

A non-starter, says the above person, why so? Let us remind ourselves who are the settlers here? Who colonized and dispossessed the local population? The Palestinians paid for the Holocaust, encouraged by the Zionists (not all Jews) who projected their trauma unto the Palestinians, who were the new 'Nazis'. How many times have not Israeli politicians called this or that Arab leader 'a Hitler'. The truth is that Zionism became the end of ethical Judaism, a violent ideology of subjugation and elimination. I say, drop Zionism and share the land in a pluralistic democracy. If the Palestians got the vote, and there were constitutional safeguards for the Jewish (not Zionist) nature of the country, we would have peace. Guess whether Olmert would be for this?

Based on your solution, it looks like the Jews are giving much more than they're getting. Ceding sovereignty to the UN is absurd considering the UN's track record toward Israel and the Jews.

A safe haven for Jews, no matter how much of a struggle it is to maintain, is always preferable to giving someone else control of your destiny. Your suggestion carries too much risk for Jewish survival, and is a complete non-starter.