To put the question of Partition to rest, AB Vajpayee then PM of India, visiting Pakistan in 1999 visited the Minar e Pakistan and made a statement clearing any doubts which the Pakistani people had about acceptance of the Partition by India. So, as you see, this is a complete non-issue in India. We wish Pakistan well, as long as they dont cause us trouble, respect the LOC and merrily stew in the cauldron of jihadi/islamic pot of their making. We simply dont care, we have other things to worry about .. will Ash and Abhishek's first child will be male or female and the current India cricket tour of Australia.

Partition was the best deal for Hindus. We have seen in this forum how the SA Muslims dream of a later Mughal empire where they can either enslave/kill the Hindus or convert them. As they have done in Pakistan.

As for the West: think of the nightmare of a large Muslim dominated nation (under a with a quasi Military dictatorship) with enslaved Hindus providing the Money and Technology for the conquest of the rest.

Just think 12% Muslim population makes India a Iranian/Arab lackey. Think if this percentage was around 30-35%.

The Partition did involve great human losses in terms of bloodshed and economic dislocation, but India would have had a 35 per cent Muslim population without it. The country would have been torn by endless Hindu-Muslim riots and there would have been no opportunity to deal with any other issue. So Partition on the whole was a regrettable necessity.

Robert of Los Angeles:

Thanks for clearing up for those that have no sense of the American Reality! Being an American and having lived in Pakistan, I can say without any doubt that there is absolutely no comparison between the two countries and for someone there to blame the US or anyone else for their problems is simply ignoring the reality of a failed state, that Pakistan is!.

We have our problems with continuing institutionalized racism, a foreign policy that reeks of onesidedness and broken promises, some that you have mentioned. About the only similarity maybe between the Evangelical Born Again Christian Right Wingers and the Islamic Right Wingers! Both think they are right and the rest are going to Hell, no pun intended! But when it comes to being a country, nobody can touch us!

Very early in their independence, Americans learned about the immeasurable value of educating the generations. No wonder everyone wants to somehow end up here in America. Another value Pakistanis haven't learnt about is the sense of self identity, which we Americans certainly have. It is going to take the Pakistanis a long, long time before they can get to either of those two stages.

I have friends in Pakistan and I wish them well. I wish for them to prosper as a nation, as a people and develop their own style of democracy so that the common Pakistani has education, home and a job.

Good Luck!

I agree with Mr. Rashid in that the "Partition" with all it's faults (originally a divided Pakistan-East & West)is a fact of life and a fact of history, despite all the negative opinions expressed about Pakistan, especially post 9/11. Most Western common folk and including journalists have a penchant for negative press toward any Muslim/Islam related subject! Oh! Well!

Beyond this, what I think is relevant regarding Pakistan is not it's independence but sadly, how successful it has not been as a country!

Post Jinnah, from Liaqat Ali Khan through Gen. Zia to Musharraf, administrations have been abject failures. They failed the populace of Pakistan miserably.

In 60 years, Pakistan is only at a 3.5% literacy rate, immense portions of the population continue to be enslaved, disenfranchised and in most cases completely illiterate. Land owner such as Bugtis, Kalat, Bhuttos, Soomros, etc. not only continue to maintain a yoke of virtual slavery over their respective peoples, they refuse to free them or emanicipate them. I'm sure there are landowners elsewhere in Pakistan, those that I've not mentioned will feel threatened by this notion, as well!

Back in 1950, the then National Assembly approved legislation to abolish fuedalism. With the exception of then-East Pakistan, the rest of the country carried on free of this legislation enforced.

Between the ruling landlords and the military, Pakistan became a doomed failure early after it's inception. Basic human necessities were ignored! Jobs, economic development, housing and most of all education simply did not matter to these "rulers". To them what mattered was the continued lack of education for the masses, more money (usually through corrupt means) for their personal coffers. This way their " democratically elected" positions were safe from being challenged, not to mention the inexpensive cost of voter payoffs (Rs.5.00 per person).

Under the guise of Islamic pretences, education was not only kept from the female population, it also allowed these corrupt officials to keep education from majority of the population, thereby rendering the majority of the Pakistanis comletely without any ability to question or demand answers.

Western masters were also served during this time ! From Eisenhour, Nixon and Reagan, to Harold Wilson to Bush, today! Clearly one of the most damaging results has been the emergence of the Taliban/Al-Qaida nexus. Supported by the Reagan government, totally for it's own selfish need to defeat the Russians during their venture into Afghanistan, the Mujahideen were ignored and negeleted after the defeat of the Commies! Gen. Zia, who was instrumental at the Pakistan end nurtured these religious zealots, who now have come of age and pose a major threat, not just to America, but more to Pakistan!

Now Pakistan is faced with having to choose between Musharraf, Benazir and Sharif. Given the military's full support of Musharraf and the confidence that the West has in him, this drama will probably end with a Benazir/Mushrarraf team.

Again, the military is smack-dab in te middle of this so called "democratic" situation! The military needs to go back to being a professional force that it has trained to be and does well and future leaders need to attend to the educational, economic and social needs of the Pakistani, without which he Taliban/Al-Qaida team is going to take over the country. I'm sure India will then have an excuse to attack and dismember Pakistan, not soon enough to fulfil Nehru's dream!

These are just some of the indisputable facts, I would ask Mr. Rashid to address. These are facts that I would ask the leadership of Pakistan to face up to!

Aamir Ali:

Earth to Aamir: Time to return to reality.

The question should not be about the creation of Pakistan and the it's co-existence with it's giant neighbor India! Rather the question should be, particularly for Pakistanis and those that care, whether Pakistan is a success and it's future, as such?

Frankly, post Jinnah, Pakistan has been an utter failure...socially, economically and most of all politically! After Junnah, the leadership has been a constant parade of either the fuedal landowners who continue to "enslave" the poor, and/or the military, the only somewhat worthwhile institution that has more and more involved itself in governance resulting in the corruption of a once good military.

Interestingly, shortly after the creation of Pakistan, in 1950 the fledgling national body legislated abolishment of the fuedal system, coupled with promises of establishing education, jobs and housing for the common Pakistani. In 60 years only 3.5% of the people are educated, the legislated abolishment of the fuedal system was only enforced in the former East Pakistan and worst, the military has governed the country more times than an elected civilian body!

For the most, Pakistan has raced with India through wars, played servant to Western interests and needs, one such being the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, ultimately resulting in the unintended birth and development of the Taliban/Al-Qaida, developed a nuclear capability and all the while civilian and military governments have ravaged the country in more ways than one.

Today, Pakistan sits on a dangerous socio/religious fault-line, with the religious hardliners fanned out through the country, gaining immense popularity and support (Lal Mosque incident), while rubbing against the tectonic plate of Pakistan's other challenge, it's Western masters weilding it's economic, diplomatic and military influence to push Pakistani leadrship to, once again, do their bidding.

Without education for the masses, necessary economic plans and development "democracy" or some form of democracy will never take hold in Pakistan. Without a generation of educated masses, explaining the workings of an representative form democratic government to Pakistanis will be like Barry Schenk talking about DNA to the OJ Simpson jury! What the heck! The current "system" makes it so much easier for aspiring public officials to be elected! Without the educated masses, it only costs them Rupees 5.00 per vote ! Pretty cheap....ooopps I mean inexpensive!

Remedially, maybe Pakistani leaders, whether Musharraf, Benazir or Sharif, should look to it's Northern neighbor and learn from China's painful but fruitful growing experience. Maybe Pakistan, too, one day can be a successful state!

I think Mr. Ahmed is absolutely right by saying it would be just useless to go into debate weather partition was a mistake.
I would think what is done is done now we have a future ahead of us for the betterment of the poeple of pakistan as well as india.

So lets just make some kind of terms to make peace with eachother and get on to work for the best for people of both countries.

God bless our region call south asia

Has the lack of water resources got anything to do with how the Middle Eastern Lands are being partitioned? In the United States, the over-use of the Colorado River has caused shortages of water in the country of Mexico--all the way to and including the Gulf of Mexico. An area in the Gulf, where whales go to reproduce is nearly unuseable. The obstacles to Peace: Water. BBC did a series on the water issues, I believe, in late May, 2007.
And some governments believe the easiest way to control their citizens is by not educating them--keeping them hungry & thirsty. I know I get grumpy when I am hungry & thirsty.
Respectfully Submitted,

"Pakistani problems" were a proximate factor in 9/11
"Pakistani problems" are a key to Asian stability.
"Pakistani problems" need to be solved - you are a nuclear state, remember, you have responsibilities.

I do read Dawn.com. You are still technically under a state of emergency or martial law, so freedom of press is tentative, isn't it?

Many Pakistani are trying to solve problems, but not you, huh?

But you at least admit then:
1)of existence of ethnic problems in provinces

2)tensions along rural vs urban, globalist cosmopolitan vs traditional, moderate vs fundamentalist, militarist vs democrat lines

3)need for constructive involvement in subcontinent security (in other words, cooperation with India, ouch!!) to counter Russian and China influence in Central and Southeast Asia.

Yes or No?!

Garak:
I read your fantasy post and answered with a fantasy of my own.

Robert:

I see that you have been reading a lot of news about Pakistan. Read a Pakistani newspaper sometime, you will see Pakistanis are well-aware of their problems and are trying to solve them.

Here check this paper out: www.dawn.com

And in the future dont lecture Pakistanis on Pakistan OK?

Yup, Mr. Rashid! It's about time Pakistan put the Kashmir question to rest. Oh wait, if you did that, you'd be admitting that partition didn't work, right? Oops! So, keep on rockin' in a free world! In the mean time, welcome back Mohtarma Benazir Bhutto and Mian Nawaz Sharif! The usual suspects...

Aamir Ali:

I'm not fantasizing. I'm merely speculating. In no way did I suggest that India should not have been partitioned. The Partition is a done deal and I never said it shouldn't be. You need to read a post before you comment on it. That shouldn't be too hard for you, would it? Or do you just blunder about with pointless rants?

Asim and Aamir - Yes, America has to learn its lessons like everyone. I would argue that America is not in denial like most citizens of Arab and Central Asian states are. We question our past and our present incessantly due to a free and diverse press, real two-party politics and openness of our institutions (yes, really!)including religion to self-criticism.

America at 60 years old. That would be 1836. Were we celebrating. Yes, definitely. We were a miracle, defeating the British in war TWICE and the whole world was already taking notice of our democracy and economy (also freedom of religion, however tell that to Mormons or native Americans to get a bitter laugh). But that economy and state was half-slave, half-free. And general turned president (sound familiar) Andrew Jackson betrayed the Cherokee native tribe that had been his ally, forcing them on the "trail of tears". Another frontier hero, Davy Crockett opposed him but was made to be unpatriotic and ended up at the Alamo siege dying a glorious death that would start another war extending our borders.

What brings Pakistan to where it is today? What does it want to be? In your answer, do not use the words - America, or "The West" as they are crutches, excuses.

I made a clumsy attempt at sardonic humor when I posted that 5 Hindus=1 Pakistani Muslim bit. But lo and behold, the Pakistanis started agreeing with me! Not sure who the joke is on!

Anyway, as far as Jinnah dying and Nehru living for 17 years; I perhaps agree that Jinnah dying was a great loss, both to Pakistan and India. From what I read, his vision included a “friendly” Pakistan and India relationship. I also read that he even envisioned a confederation with common currency, security and relatively open border.
But he was in bed with some very unsavory characters! The most dangerous Muslim fanatics! Among all the baddies, he was perhaps the only good one!
So it might or might not have happened! But I think he would have tried!

Now Nehru! Aha the wonderful Chachaji. I would contend that India has made some progress “despite of Nehru’s 17 years” not “because of those”. A dimwit yet flamboyant playboy infatuated with Fabian socialism! He was the one who made a mess out of Kashmir by going to UN. He and his kooky yet arrogant foreign policy wonk, Krishna Menon royally messed up the China relations. They first tried to hug a grisly bear and when the bear did not care; they put a finger up its ass…. What happened after that was the disaster of 1962 and subsequent game of China to plug India’s butt with Pakistan!
On domestic front, the Nehruvian socialism gave India the corrupt bureaucracy, the inefficient public sector and the uncompetitive economy!
He marginalized Patel, even tried to make a mess out of dissolution of principalities!
He advanced Gandhiji’s perverse definition of “Indian secularism”! “SarvaDharmaSamaBhava” “Respect for all religions”. That gets you nowhere but down. The true secularism means driving the religion back to where it belongs. In the churches, mosques and temples! Singing a Hindu prayer followed by an Islamic invocation and a Christian Mass at a Hydro-Dam opening ceremony is plain stupid! Making “Muslim personal law” and “Hindu code” is downright dangerous! That opened the door for these Muslim fanatics to give out blood curdling calls of “Islam Khatre mein hain” to every national program, from birth control to polio vaccinations. It helped tighten the grip of that religion on their masses.
Pluralism and tolerance does not mean tolerance of “intolerance”. Unfortunately that is what we have in India. By all means, kick butts of Thackrey, but you will need to kick butts of Shahi Imams, Syed Shahabuddin and Salauddin Owaisi even harder. Don’t ignore the elephant in the room! The Islamic fanaticism! That’s what Keeps Muslims down. Not the lack of opportunities!
When Taslima Nasrin writes something even mildly critical, she gets a crap beaten out of her and the government condones that but when Ambedkar burns Manusmiriti, there are no fatwa’s! In fact, many of us say, good, he is helping us get rid of the crap in our religion! Hindus are not afraid to admit that we have crap masquerading in our vast system of philosophy we call “Dharma”! Our religion is a river, occasionally crap gets in, and we admit that and try to clean it. Our religion is a continuously evolving process started on the solid foundation of Upanishads and Vedas. We do not sit of a dead lake, clinging to one book and believing anything and everything in anachronistic and moronic ways! We are all about "ijtehad" baby! And that’s what keeps most of us secular. Don’t forget India is secular (in whatever form) because Hindus are secular!
India’s growth is organic; it is despite of these stupid leaders, not because of them. It is a tribute to Indian people, who have learned to make lemonade from centuries and centuries of lemons handed down to them.
Pakistanis are the same bunch of people. They just need to release the death grip of their religion on them. Stop believing in the promise of 72 virgins! Just open your own lemonade stand!

Being an Indian American and one of its Midnight Children, I can look back and see what has provided India the basis for where it is today and where Pakistan could have been. Simply put, it was the maddening dedication to self independence (i.e. self esteem), democracy, even at the price of a "Hindu" rate of growth and famine in 1960s. I myself am a product of one of the prestigious institutions in India which now has created its own global brand. If Pakistan had displayed this same kind of dedication in the early years, things may have been different.

Robert of Los Angeles,
Humans study the past-recent and ancient-to learn from it:America does not seem learn its lessons,is the example of Vietnam and Iraq ring a bell?

Aamir, my point on Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Egypt is 3000 years old, Arabia is the home of Islam. But like America is not Rome or Jerusalem (of Jesus and I quickly add Abraham and Ishmael) Pakistan is a creation. I don't want to change history, I want you to deal with it.

No ethnic problems, huh. Baluchistan nationalism just a rumor, huh. Waziristan autonomy and Taliban is ethnic as well as radicalism, isn't it?? Losing Bangladesh not an ethnic problem, huh? Add to that your rural vs urban, globalist cosmopolitan vs traditional, moderate vs fundamentalist, militarist vs democrat, shall I go on with the schisms in your country??? I truly am glad for the independence of Pakistan. But you'd be surprised what buried matters rise from the dead and how it affects your present concerns more than any money you get from the West OR China. It's your country, your problems, don't be in self-denial.

Robert:

Where did Egypt and Saudi Arabia come from and what is this ethnic turmoil in Pakistan you are talking about?

You are a foreigner and are being told that Pakistanis are happy with their independence. Other questions like violent separation and Bangladesh are also settled matters, buried in history.

I agree with you. Now, the partition is a fact and period. I am not from India or Pakistan. But i know that the best way is to make the two countries talk, solve their problems toward each other and make peace. You have my support and the support of many people in the west.

The reasons and circumstances of national creation that directly impinge on your problems today have to be examined. Like I said, America's struggle with this led to Lincoln and the Civil War, and our continuing road of living up to our pluralistic ideals. Denial is NOT an option.
For instance -
What does it mean to be an Islamic state is unique to Pakistan's creation as opposed to say Egypt or Saudi Arabia. It's similar to US creation as a nation of Christian pilgrims

How do you face the violent division of the initial partition? How do you understand across the divide - India, or the lost province - Bangladesh, or the continuing ethnic turmoil??

You can't get away with just saying 60 years have gone by!!

Robert, Anonymous and Anita - what is wrong with you people? Can you answer a simple question without launching some sort of indirect attack on Islam?

I agree with Aamir Ali - Pakistani independence has always been a problem for Indians - you can't really expect a different answer from what we see above. Its impossible - so why pay attention to it?

Garak:

What would have happened if British had not arrived in Subcontinent? Mughals would still be in power and Muslims would be even happier.

You can fantasize and theorize all day. Or you can face facts as Ahmed Rashid said. One fact is that Pakistanis are happy with their independence.

Robert:

Partition has always been a problem for Indians and now for Westerners. Pakistanis dont regard it as a problem.

I am agreeing with Ahmed Rashid for the first time, but Pakistanis focus is on how to make their country better.

Self-examination and self-criticism does not include issues that are of interest to foreigners.

American Observer:
I dont regard Pakistan as being "far behind" India. I believe such an impression may be formed by reading too much news about violence in Pakistan and economic growth in India. You can find violence and economic growth in both countries.

But what would have happened had there been no Partition? Muslims would be a minority in a Hindu nation. But they would be a much larger minority than they are today in India. Assuming a non-Partitioned India remained a democracy, the Muslims could have been like other well-organized minority voting blocks in the US. Stick together, and you get power all out of proportion to your numbers.

The question is indeed pointless, as Ahmed Rashid observes. However, it will continue to be asked, as is human nature.

I do believe that in another 20 years, many Indians will be thanking Jinnah for pushing for Pakistan, so that extremist followers of Islam who just couldn't stand Hindus don't live in India and create trouble.

In the same way, a number of Pakistani followers of Islam who accept other religions will be cursing Jinnah for depriving them and their children of the freedom and opportunities available to their brethren in India.

The real culprit here is not Jinnah but the Pakistani Army, which has always let Pakistan down, whether in times of war or times of peace.

Ahmed Rashid:

I have heard a lot of people from India talk about Pakistan, and they have given their theories as to why Pakistan is now so much more poor and unstable than India. Ahmed, how do the Pakistanis see this? Why do you think that Pakistan is so far behind India, and what do you think Pakistan has to do in order to grow at the same pace?

Robert:

Good to see you again.

Robert:

Good to see you again.

Ahmed Rashid:

I have heard a lot of people talk about from India talk about Pakistan, and they have given their theories as to why Pakistan is now so much more poor and unstable than India. Ahmed, how do the Pakistanis see this? Why do you think that Pakistan is so far behind India, and what do you think Pakistan has to do in order to grow at the same pace?

I agree with the two commenters above. Pakistan chose to become an Islamic theocracy (reason for partition), has killed and driven off most of minorities (meanwhile India is left with huge Muslim population who want to divide country further:Kashmir. Pakistan would not even accept Indian Muslims as migrants).
But look what Pakistan has given to the rest of the humanity: terror, terror, more terror.

Why not simply answer the question?
I would think that to Pakistanis partition was good because it got them what they wanted,a place of their own.To Indians perhaps not so good,because they lost territory,created an adversary,and still has a burdensome Muslim population to contend with.
But Pakistan should be embarrassed at its failure to build a half decent country out of its gift from the people of India.
It is a disgusting mess of a country,made so by Islam itself which keeps its citizens ignorant of everything except the Koran.

Sorry not good enough. We in the West argue endlessly about whether we should have dropped the bomb, confronted Hitler sooner, not confronted the Kaiser, etc, etc.

Specifically in the founding of America - historians and philosophers force us to re-examine the great good (constitutional democracy, pluralistic ideals) and foundational problems (native Americans, slavery).

If you can't do that, especially when you ripped and expelled to create an Islamic state, and yet are ambivalent (Urban/rural, Taliban vs cosmopolitan) about how to practice your Islam, and also Pakistan seems much less able to confront its ethnic problems than the dynamic democracy that is India.

If you aren't into self- examination (It doesn't have to be self-flagellation!!), then you aren't for real, and I worry about real progress in Pakistan ever happening.