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The job of the Army is to PROTECT Pakistan!

Protection includes: EXTERNAL and INTERNAL.

External aggression includes Foreign aggression; while Internal aggression includes "Safe Pakistan from the corrupt Politicians who loot the country and live in safe havens of UK, USA and Dubai"

We need Musharraf; who has a clean background and his 6 years policies have benefitted PAK. PAK economics are stable and sustained at 7% growth.

Long live Musharraf !!!

OBSERVER it's quite clear you are stung by the the factotums on these cults. Start by asking yourself, Why is it every terrorist of the M kind always swears by sharia and the quran and quotes quranic injunctions against making peace with proud infidels/pagans like me? Should I be examining Musharaf/ Usama's mind or the book that drives them to behave this way?

The manifestation of conflict is very much evident in the bible itself when one witnesses a prophet vs prophet war! Read

The strangest thing is that the bible keeps prohibiting additions/changes from deuteronomy all the way to revelation. Crazies keep adding stuff nevertheless and try to shut out others like them, I suppose. This should be really funny, if it were not for the real misery it causes.
Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Deu 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

That was in the old testament in Moses' time, and now Jesus comes along and....
Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. and yet you have so many denominations of the church born every minute!

To get an idea of how the Inquistion started let me "REVEAL" what happened between two denominations in China:

34 Chinese Christians 'kidnapped by evil cult'
By Damien McElroy in Beijing (Filed: 24/06/2002)

"A banned sect that believes Jesus Christ has returned to earth as a Chinese woman has been accused of kidnapping 34 Christians in a bizarre attempt to gain converts.

Shen Yiping and Shen Xianfeng, the founders of China Gospel Fellowship, and 32 of their followers claim they were abducted in April by members of Lightning from the East, a group condemned by Beijing as an evil cult.

They were released late last week and yesterday said they had been drugged and subjected to psychological torture. A spokesman said the kidnap victims had resisted Lightning from the East's attempts at brainwashing.

"Although they were tempted, enticed and threatened in every way, they have been able to hold on to their faith in the Lord, to overcome the temptations and to refuse the heresies of the female Christ."

Lightning from the East is notorious for trying to force underground Christians to convert, according to the Bangkok-based missionary body Asia Harvest, which monitors its activities.

"They specially target house church Christians. They often resort to kidnapping, beatings, torture, drugging, sexual entrapment and intense brainwashing," the group said. There was "credible evidence" that dozens of Christians had been murdered by the sect.

Government papers leaked last year contained instructions from Jia Chunwang, the public security minister, for action against the sect, saying: "We need to work more, talk less to smash the cult quietly."

Beijing has rounded up more than 2,000 followers of Lightning from the East but it has not been able to wipe out the group, which was founded in 1990.

Its leader, Zhao Weishan, claims that the second coming of Christ has already taken place in the form of a 30-year-old peasant woman called Deng, who has never been photographed and is shielded from ordinary members of the sect. She is said to have written an apocalyptic addition to the Bible." So more Jesus's to follow inspite of biblical injunctions.

If such is the case of prophet vs prophet what can mere mortals like Putin, Musharaf, Blair or Bush do? Lets attack the source no end so the brains of mere mortals become sane and liberated.

If the cults are the cause of the present cold war or hot war why not? the chimp aka Bush himself claimed it was the crusades. So lets get to the bottom of the conflict and not to get defensive.

While westerners are sane enough to discuss Bush vs Putin or mobocracy vs dictatorship why do they shirk from discussing the evil cults and their jealous gods. To my mind these cults are the sole cause of such conflicts that exists on earth today. If a Bush has to swear on a dirty book called Bible (the adjective used by Rupert Hughes to describe) for taking his oath of office how can he or any other President of the occupied territories of US (O.T.U.S) be expected to behave in a sane manner? If Bush had been really serious on his war against terror (it's another question his ancestors were involved in wholesale terror in the Americas) as he termed it he should have annihilated Pakistan since evry islamic trror outfit originates there. But did he? Nope, because to his (and all other think tanks in the O.T.U.S) christian cultish scheming mind that would allow the Hindu majority Bharat i.e. India to become very powerful and assume leadership role of the world as it had been for 1000's of years except for the past 1000 years.

Guys/Gals
please stick to the subject here.. please do not clutter with lessons on Islam, Christianity,Hinduism, Casteism , price of onions , democratic primary, quantum mechanics... hope you get the drift

(From the book "Psychology of Prophetism: A Secular Look at the Bible" by Koenraad Elst)

Prophetic monotheism and Sanatana Dharma

In the past century, people belonging to the Hindu-Buddhist cultural sphere have started projecting the characteristics of their own spiritual masters on the monotheist prophets. Thus, when Jesus says: “The Kingdom of God is among you”, meaning “I, Jesus, am the Kingdom of God”, these good-natured Orientals take it to mean: “The Kingdom of God is inside of you, waiting to be discovered through meditation.” They have started to say that the prophets were a kind of yogis who taught their followers a way to attain a divine state of consciousness.

In fact, prophecy is radically different from yoga: it means allowing an outside entity, which in the case of monotheism is called Yahweh/God/Allah, to blow certain consciousness contents into your mind. Consciousness is not turned inward, but is (or believes it is) communicating with another Being. Moreover, the mind is not being emptied of its contents and made to rest in itself, as it is in yoga; on the contrary, it is being filled with a message beyond one’s control. The prophet receives a certain information: prophecy is like talking, though with an unusual partner via an unusual channel; but yoga is silence. Lastly, if it is correct that prophethood is a mental aberration and a delusion, then that makes it the very antithesis of yoga, which is an undisturbed and realistic awareness of pure consciousness.

Yoga is not an erratic and disturbing experience which befalls you and drives you to tirades of doom and to outbursts against your fellow men. It is a systematic discipline and makes the practitioner calm and serene. The word yoga means discipline, control (it is also translated as “uniting”: not the soul with an outsider called God, but the mind with its object, i.e. concentration). Since its field of working is consciousness, it is not interested in outward experiences such as recognition and glorification, or martyrdom. There is nothing dramatic about yoga, in stark contrast to the dramas enacted and encountered by the prophets.

The most remarkable difference between the prophets’ discourse and that of the rishis, is certainly this. The prophets all talk about themselves a lot. They think they are very special, this one person in this one body is different from the rest and has an exclusive relationship with the Creator. But the rishis talked about a universal way, a world order in which we all participate, a state of consciousness we can all achieve. If God is defined as that which transcends all worldly differences, the One above the Many, then this universalism is far more divine than the prophets’ exclusivism.

What Hindus who have been trapped in a sentimental glorification of Jesus and other prophets will have to learn, is that the essence of Hindu Dharma is not “tolerance”, or “equal respect for all religions”, but Satya, truth. The problem with Christianity and Islam is superficially their intolerance and fanaticism. But this intolerance is a consequence of these religions’ untruthfulness: if your belief system is based on delusions, you have to pre-empt rational inquiry into it and shield it from contact with more sustainable thought systems. The fundamental problem with the monotheist religions is not that they are intolerant, but that they are untrue, (Asatya or Anrita).

At this point many Hindus will be sincerely shocked, they will object, and Christian polemists will express the same objection: “By denouncing some religions as untrue, you are making a pretentious claim to knowing the ultimate truth.” In the case of Christians who know and believe the essence of their religion, this objection is highly insincere, as they themselves are confidently claiming to possess the ultimate, God-given truth. Otherwise, the objection against absolute truth-claims may be valid. The point is that by denouncing the defining beliefs of Christianity (and similarly, Islam) as untrue, we are not making a claim to know the final truth. The quest for the final truth remains open. When scientists find that a certain hypothesis is empirically disproves, they henceforth treat it as untrue and move on to more promising hypotheses; this does not imply a pretentious claim to ultimate truth. It is simply that once a belief is found to be untrue, we should not burden ourselves with it anymore, so that we can keep ourselves free for something more true.

There are other respects also in which Christianity and Sanatana Dharma are radically different. Christianity worships a suffering convict on the cross, and consequently glorifies suffering. To a woman who was heavily suffering, mother Teresa wrote: “You should be grateful for this suffering. It is Christ’s way of kissing you.”

In a sense, there is something to it that “hardships are the spice of life, they mould the perfect man”. Even so, the unabashed glorification of happiness is a far healthier attitude than the glorification of suffering. Hardships will come anyway, but it is morbid to focus the mind on them unnecessarily. When Christians hear Chinese people wish each other “much wealth” or in fact “much money”, on New Year’s day, they find it rather shocking. When they see depictions of Lakshmi or Ganesh, with all their opulence and well-being and endless generosity, they find something is very wrong. At any rate, it is a kind of iconography which you will not find in any church.

Like Christianity, several Sanatana traditions, esp. Buddhism, focus on suffering. But they have an unambiguous verdict: suffering is the problem, we offer a way out of it. The common-sense position of mainstream Hindu sources like the Bhagavad Gita is that suffering is a fact of life, that we have to bravely face it, that enduring it makes us stronger; but not that we should glorify it. In Christianity, a straightforward remedy against suffering is always resented as a bit selfish; since we are sinners, suffering is what we deserve.

This attitude to suffering is symptomatic of the single most harmful characteristic of Christianity: its lack of balance. In traditional Pagan and secular systems of ethics, the principle of the Golden Mean is duly emphasized (Aristotle, Confucius, Buddha); by contrast, Christianity fosters a sentimental extremism.

The only Bible books that consist of lucid observations about life, are non-prophetic books like Proverbs and Qohelet (Ecclesiastes). They belong to a section of the Old Testament called Ketuvim, “Writings”, for which no divine source is claimed. Their source is just human and normal, rather like any collection of quotations or “Collected Proverbs from the Middle East”. These sayings range from the trivial and uninspired to the witty and the profound. Some good, some not so good, a few gems: your average human product. These human sayings have some good advice to offer on how to conduct life; in the prophetic revelations, it is hard to find any such good advice.

Prophetism has caused innumerable hardships without giving anything valuable in return. Not one of the valuable things in the cultures dominated by it, can be traced to their prophetic-monotheistic component. Its source has more often than not been mental darkness. Today, there is no justification for keeping humanity in the mental prison of prophetism any longer.

by:Koenraad Elst

The Self is the sun shining in the sky, The wind blowing in space; He is the fire
At the altar and in the home the guest;
He dwells in human beings, in Gods, in truth,
And in the vast firmament; He is the fish
Born in water, the plant growing in earth,
The river flowing down the mountain.
For this Self is supreme!
(Katha Upanishad II.2.2)

One wonders how these cultists who maybe otherwise normal (logic suggests once they are cultists they can't be, though) who use logical thinking for day to day activities be it choosing white goods, travelling, not to bathe for days together or any for any form of human activity do keep their moth eaten brains in the freezer when it comes to believing the mythology of Adam & Eve; Noah and his Ark; Prophetism; doomsday theories; A-Brahama and his tablets. Can all these moth eaten brains try to revive some mental faculties to analyze (is it blasphemy to analyze?) the enormous stupidity of their BOOK. Can we have more Anwar Sheiks and Rupert Hughes please?

Cultists please take a pledge to critically analyze your single stupid BOOK and desert the desert cults- the world would be a better place. Such blogs would be unneccessary.

If Momins say that they accept the Earth is spherical then why are the Momins in US, Canada pray facing East? Shouldn't they be praying by standing upside down in Sirsanana pose? As Muslims are expected to pray in the direction of the Tomb of Gods- Kaabha or if they are more genuine Momins, should be facing Jerusalem as the early Momins did before the Kaabha Temple was captured and destroyed by Pagy Mohd.

Will Mr. Rashid ask the Pakistani army to recalculate all their missiles trajectories using the flat earth theory otherwise their Army would be committing a gross sacrilege by going against the Shariat! MM please be in the forefront of this.

Will someone tell me this. If Jesus and Mohd had direct links with the divine why did these self proclaimed prophets not tell us the Earth was round and it went around the sun? Or is the earth still flat? Simple question isn't it? when someone asked Mohd where did the sun hide himself after sunset, he said that once he walked much distance to the west and he saw the sun going down into a huge lake where he hid himself (was it the Red Sea he referred to?)

If one still hangs on to such beliefs how can he analyze? To compound your woes it is either total acceptance of the Quran or death? So theoretically all Muslims have to blv the earth is flat. Biblical references to flat earth theory can be produced.

Can someone tell which religion (unfortunately by the definition of religion there exists only one religion, the rest are all really cults) has always said the earth is egg shaped and it goes round the Sun and knew about the declension of the earth's axis and it's periodicity and knew it's precise value a fact that was only 'discovered' in the 1930's by the West?

MM, no one carrying a deadly virus inside him can analyse because the virus has already chewed up his brain. Only the brain deads can remain a muslim.

Why tie yourself into knots trying to understand a simple problem- Pakistan's problem is the Islamic cult. The cult formed by rape loot and plunder, how can one expect their followers to refrain from it. If one does not believe in coveting, rape, pillage, loot, plunder etc how can he be called a Momim? Would he not be going against it's very tenets- Quran and Hadis. Since you are in the dark about the Quran and the Hadis, let me give two excellent references to study them two well referenced books available to read free on the net.
1. The Calcutta Quran Petition by Sita Ram Goel
http://www.bharatvani.org/books/tcqp/
2. Understanding Islam Through Hadis : Religious faith or Fanaticism? by Sri Ram Swarup
http://www.bharatvani.org/books/uith/

I think this is a very serious question; answering it requires deep knowledge of Pakistani history and politics. The feedback I have seen so far (including that by Mr Rashid) seem inadequate. I think PostGlobal needs to get more Pakistan experts like Ejaz Haider and Khaled Ahmed on their panel because these are the analysts with a sound grasp on the nuances of this debate and who have spent years trying to figure out why the military keeps intervening in politics in Pakistan and how it must be kept out.
Best,
M

Read Collapsing Pakistan by NS Rajaram at http://www.bharatvani.org/books/cpak/ to get an idea of it's dim future. This book was written quite sometime ago. All the books in this website http://www.bharatvani.org/books/cpak/ give an idea of what is cause of today's unrest in the world due to the twin pronged dangers posed by both the desert cults.

If Musharaf cannot survive surely Islam will also not survive. Good. Somewhere I read that Paggy Mohd said that Islam would survive only 1400 years (of lies) by his statement "Na musa na isa".. Granting him some clairvoyance, By the Islamic warpy calculations that a year is of 354 days (did Allah tell him that?) the 1400 years were over in 1979 and I do recollect that an Iranian group aptly named SHAKTHI entered the tomb of idols- KAABHA and shot dead thousands. What stared then may be over by 2032. Inshallah let's be patient till 2032. and with Malaichi's prediction that the present Pope is the last but one I am really envying the next generation as they would be able to see a world without both the genocidal cults. Will Islam and Christianity survive beyond 2050?

Mathew
Differences cannot be settled by forgetting the past.The native culture in Latin america faced the worst form of genocide by Christian Spanish conquistadors and the legacy of that continues to this day. Similarly no one , absolutely no one can ignore the the mass murder of Muslim invaders who mindlessly murdered thousands of Hindus in order to establish an Islamic empire over infidels in India. Similarly no one can forget how the caste Hindus instituted the worst form of political discrimination called caste system whose ill effects continue to this day.
Bottomline is to learn from the past that whenever ideology , religious or otherwise is fused with politics only chaos and mayhem happens.

Mathew
Differences cannot be settled by forgetting the past.The native culture in Latin america faced the worst form of genocide by Christian Spanish conquistadors and the legacy of that continues to this day. Similarly no one , absolutely no one can ignore the the mass murder of Muslim invaders who mindlessly murdered thousands of Hindus in order to establish an Islamic empire over infidels in India. Similarly no one can forget how the caste Hindus instituted the worst form of political discrimination called caste system whose ill effects continue to this day.
Bottomline is to learn from the past that whenever ideology , religious or otherwise is fused with politics only chaos and mayhem happens.

Reading through these many comments from both sides of the border can be distressing. Let us remember that the vast majority of people from Pakistan and India are peace-loving people who have so much in common - when you find them together in places like Africa or the USA - they are often the best of friends sharing love and respect and hospitality. When the Indian cricket team toured Pakistan two seasons ago, that was there in abundance for all to see. If there is truth to these experiences as I believe there was and continues to be, then I will hold that up as hope for the future. May both nations' peoples build the bridges over the wasteful differences of the past.

Pakis go pick up passengers or blow up something. Indians attend to ur customers at 7 - 11.

All of u are bunch of unemployed retard.

Mr. Nirmal Rana Sinha Tata,

Well, by writing BUSTARD I am sure you meant BASTARD. I hope you know the meaning of the word too. And also the meaning of the words like Zionists, Darwinism, Satan, Muslim, Islam, UNO, ... etc etc used lavishly in your post!

Your post forced me to figure out the kind of personality or a person you would be. Believe me, I could not and became even more confused, like your post itself and also like your name!...

Mr Nirmal Rana Sinha Tata
If this is indeed your real name, your comments(or should I say rants) are uhh "interesting..."

And yeah, you need to learn how to spell too.

India is a Zionist country second to Israel created by the British and American bustards disintegrating the Muslim India by exercising their Darwinist power backed by UNO (united nonmuslims organization). Pakistan in 1947 included Bangladesh (East Pakistan and West Pakistan) after grabbing 600 hundred states which included Hyderabad Kashmir, junagar, bihar, manvader and many other, the Zionist India wanted to grab Pakistan in 1965 but failed to do so after loosing a lot. The Zionist India could no longer survive if the UNO not interfered Pakistan forcefully. Lo! the UN creates a antihuman Zionist state of Israel in an Muslim Arab land concurrently while the India captured many of the Muslims states in this subcontinent the true nonmuslims organization supported India suggesting its antiislamic character!!!!!!. After that failure the UNO and India jointly Put a there great collaborator sheikh mujib to create havoc in east Pakistan as were being done by hasina and his awami leaders in Bangladesh in the recent years to unstable Bangladesh which are now leaking out by jalil and selim and babar, mintu and others. All are not but true culprits and Indian American international Zionist collaborators. Rebel, jai khosla, anju etc are liars and all liars are alike in speaking against Islam. All are Zionists collaborators. They are winning by their Darwinism and Zionism which means that all types of conspiracy and collaborators and selling and buying policy can be adopted to fight against humanity (Islam). Whoever speaks against Islam, Muslim, Muhammad are liars, because their leader is Satan Bush and Satan Olmart and Satan Blair who is supplying them money to cry for Bustards who are killing millions of innocent Muslims throughout the world so that their animal character is not revealed. Before putting a comment, be truthful and honest otherwise you are also a bustard.

Tarik
You need to get your facts right.
Buddhism was destroyed in India due to destruction of Nalanda monastery and 2000 of its monks by Bhaktiar Khilji , a Muslim turk.
You seem to suggest that Muslims have no record of violence . What about Ghazni , Ghauri , Abdali , Temur , Nadir Shah or Taliban in Afghanistan , Saddam in Iraq. Ofcourse Christians and Hindus have also commited grave acts of violence and oppression .
Large number of people including many non muslims like me do not believe that Islam or for that matter Hinduism or Christianty is a universal religion and infact I think , after reading Islamic texts one can say many of Islamic beliefs are truly bizarre . The same goes for other religions. The bottomline is that you cannot force me to adopt your beliefs and neither I can do the same with you. It is best if State is separated from religion.You go to your mosques and I go to my church.

Anju,

I accept that I overstated my case by saying "Islam hater", but nothing will convince me that you don't gloat and feel a sense of superiority that things are going wrong in Pakistan (yes, your brothers and sisters now as 60 years ago) while Inidia is no doubt doing very, very well. God bless her people!

About 'Islamic fundamentalism', I don't understand the term. First and foremost, Islam is a 'religion of the book', but unlike Judaism, far from claiming to be the religion of 'the chosen people', it claims to be a universal religion (many say proselitizing, even by the sword), and unlike Christianity, its Divinity is not anthropomorphic and it insists that ALL peoples all over the world (and maybe living beings in other worlds we are yet to discover) have received prophets from the Divinity. So, the atheists' claim of 'superstition' against Islam is totally unfounded. Islam is a religion of peace, but, yes, Muslims may have committed atrocities in the name of Islam (against other Muslims themselves as well as against 'infidels', but the same can be said about ALL other 'religions' or 'social codes of conduct'. I just read the abomination of the BAe/Saudi Arabia/Prince Bandar arms sale scandal. Of course that is a crime against humanity -- the Muslim component of humanity, committed gaisnt them by fellow-Muslims who pride themselves of being 'the Guardians of "the house of Allah" and of Islam's two holiest places.
It is not only I who know where the real problem of Muslim society lies (no, not just Muslim rulers but their susceptibility to manipulation by other world powers and to corruption) -- in the perversion of the truly Islamic value that "the best among you is the one who is most pious, who truly lives by the teacchings of the Quran". Far too frequently, our leaders (espeically the rulers) turn this principle around to argue "Since I am the ruler, I must be the most pious -- therefore, I am Amir-ul-Mu'mineen and Imam-ul-Mujahideen -- You owe me allegiance and I should be ruler for life".
THAT, Anju behen, is the problem

Mohamed Malleck Bhai,

Ok, I did assume that you were a Non-Resident Pakistani, now living in Canada. But I do NOT accept your unfounded assumption (accusation actually) about me being a Muslims hater.

I am sure, you would know that India is a secular-democratic country with the second largest muslim population in the world after Indonesia - even much larger than their number in Pakistan - where people of all religions live in harmony. (Certain ocassional skirmishes are common but without any potential to destabilise the secular fabric of India!)

I don't know you are from which country but at least you are a fellow human! And, my anguish over whatever wrongs are happening with our erstwhile brothers and sisters in Pakistan is simply borne out of the fact that they were amongst us - one of us, in fact - only 60 years back. And to see their lives change dramatically for the worst in 6 decades is painful.

In my opinion, the socio-economical-political problems plaguing Pakistan are the consequence of an unstable political environment under the influence of religious fundamentalism and because of which Pakistan has suffered Army Rule repeatedly.

Therefore, I want them - my brothers and sisters from my country India till 15th Aug 1947 - to enjoy the Bliss of Democracy - the governance style much better than all the other systems being currently practiced in the world - and enjoy their Life with Lots of Happiness and Dignity!

Rebel
Jai Khosla

You need to know who were the adopted parents of Kabir Das (well surprise surprise they were muslims).
You need to ask why Guru Nanak went to Mecca in Saudi Arabia (non muslims are not allowed), and to Najaf in Iraq.
You also should ask how/why Bhuddaism was wiped out in India after it was made the state religion of India by Ashoka the Great.
You may also want to know why Bahadur Shah Zafar was chosen as the symbol of resistance to British rule by the bulk of the resistance fighters who happen to be Hindus.

Islam is a universal religion.
While Hindus are only limited to India or to Indian ancestory.
Islam crosses national and ethinic boundaries and linguistic boundaries.
Example:
The President of Islamic Society of North America is Ingrid Matteson PhD, a theology and history professor, and she is a white women who converted to Islam during her college days.
Islam is a dynamic religion and still remains the worlds fastest growing religion (BBC article).
Man you have to read.
Read good history books. Read one by British author Liet.Gen.Glubb called the Great Arab Conquests.
Compare those events with the Conquestadors or the killing of 6 million Red Indians in North America.
Or the killing fields of Assam in the battle of Kalinga. Get a sense of History.

Old Man:
These are the facts:
There has never been a Bihari President,Prime Minister,a Federal Minster,Chief Minster,Governor,
or a MNA.
The late Mr Hussain Imam is the only person(a Bihari)who represented both India and Pakistan in the legislative assembly.
Chief Sectetary (both at level of province and central goverment), Lieut.General and or a Corps Commander.
There have been one or two Chancellors of Universities and one or two Ambassadors.
Yes there are tons or Doctors and Engineers.
And by the way neither Musharaff, Zia ul Haq,nor Altaf Hussain are Biharis.
I would love to have a Bihari become the President of Pakistan.

Mohammad , Please dont take offense.I am against any form of opression , suppression of free thought and frankly I am totally against the treatement that Muslim women recieve just as I am against oppression of lower caste hindus etc
Secondly from my reading of Islam , you cannot separate Islamic state from application of Islamic law enshrined in Sharia. Only Muslims called Italy , France etc CHRISTIAN STATES. I have lived in France and they are quite proud of their French identity which includes enlightenment thinkers like voltaire who advocated strict separation of church and state. There is no
OCS like OIC

Anju Chandel, Rebel,

The problem with both of you is that you are both Muslim haters and you both can only think in stereo-typical fashion rather than carry out an argument based on evidence.

You both assume that I am writing from Canada because I am settled here and have come here in search of a better standard of living than in my own country. In addition, Anju is SURE that I must be from Pakistan or at least from the Indian sub-continent.

Well, you are both wrong. I had all my university my education (up to the Ph.D.) in Canada in the 1970's, thaen went back to my country to serve economic development and central banking for more than 30 years. I am now in Canada (for the pasy 15 months, but am still not sure if I want to live here for good, although it NO DOUBT is the most civlized country in the world.

Secondly, no, Rebel. It is not I who was the first to use the term Muslim country -- you did, and you said that Islam is no good for anything etc. On that issue, I leave you at your own level. For me it is PEOPLE that matter and I assure you that, with all the sympathy that I have for those who use reason to justify their faith or choose agnosticism (but not atheism -- for that they must define God first), I cannot but feel total contempt for those who vilify religion in general and Islam in particular while they glorify the barbarism that the West is committing in the name of a Christianity which Issa-ibn-Mariam (Jesus) would concemn as the exact opposite of what he taught.

Your definition of an Islamic country as one that rules according to Sharia law is idiosyncratic to you alone. Others define Muslim countries as : (1) those that wilfully belong to the organisation of Muslim countries (and both Nigeria and Gabon, but also Turkey, Malaysia, Tunisia etc, belong to the OIC); (2) those that have a large majority population of the Muslim faith (I myself am not too keen on that definition, but I am ready to agree that the USA, Germany, France, Italy are Chritian countries, so why not for the Muslim majority countries?)

What I take exception with is the demonisation of Islam when all the barbarity in our early-21st century world emanates from so-called secular or Christian countries, with a certain number of nationals (including Anju Chandel) from one Hindu country (but far from most Hindus, who have great respect for my position) gloating that Muslims, who had once ruled their country, are now the victims of aggression. (After all, under Vajpayi's BJP rule, India had massed 1 million soldiers on the border with India, ready to attack).
Which country am I from? I am a citizen of the world. Which religion? I am Muslim-borderline-agnostic, but more and more a Muslim convinced of the 'divine' -- somehow defined -- origin of his faith.

And yes as a European citizen I feel fortunate to live in such freedom loving , prosperous and law abiding society where conflicts of Islam or Hinduism are distant problems in alien lands

Listening to the "arguments" from the Old Man about Mohajjirs made me laugh out loud. Sir, the Mohajjirs are Muslims, right ? or do you want to debate that too.?

When you create an artificial nation state based on religion, this is exactly what happens - there is no deeper sense of identity. Old Man accuses the muhajjirs as being the source of all problems when he has no clue that pakistan was created specifically for "Indian" Muslims. under fear of Hindu domination (or was it guilt for slaughtering Hindus by the millions over 8 centuries), a nation state was created to "protect" Muslim interests, especially those who would be a minority in India.

In fact it is this zealousness to "protect" Muslims that drives pakistanis to terrorism in Kashmir, Chechenya, Afghanistan and of course now the USA and Britain. Their religious identity is their strongest - their national identity is weaker, relative to the muslim faith.

but with the old man's gripes about "Bihari Muslims" it now looks like their religious identity is also weakening.!!

Old Man and Khaled, people with mindsets like you are the reason pakistan has a really long way to go before it can become a democracy. Always willing to accuse everyone else in the world for your problems and never having the courage to do even the smallest amount of self introspection.

it seems pakistan is vibrant and if it had half the divisions of what India has, there would be a revolution in pakistan. Khalid, dont you find it amazing that India with so many divisions and 10 times the population can still be a united country with hopes for the future, while pakistan which has only muslims, is so divided !!

Dont be too vibrant, you might just explode !!
If Jinnah was alive today and saw Islamic radicals rushing to pass Hudood laws and embroiled in the Afghan Taliban and killing the very fabric of civil society, he would be spinning in his grave.

Rebel, i dont know where you are from but your suggestion for the EU model for India is easily one of the most ridiculous i have seen. If you have no friggin idea of what is happening Kashmir, Bihar , Assam for all their problems have DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED governments who have their own people trying to solve their states problems.

The EU model will never work for pakistan, you can bet on the punjabis always trying to dominate every one else from baluchistan, sindh etc.

pakistan is a failed state - a ticking nuclear bomb and a bigger nightmare for the WORLD(except China maybe) than ever before.

Ya Mohammad Mallick
I was very busy so did not check your post
Firstly I won the debate because you did not give me an example of a single Muslim country and a Muslim country is a one where Sharia is implemented as advocated in Koran and Hadith which is progressive peaceful or developed.Egypt , Turkey and Malaysia CANNOT be counted as ISLAMIC by that yardstick.Sudan , Saudi Arabia , Taliban ruled Afghanistan , Iran can be and I for one do not want my kids to stay in these countries and neither do you as your current location is the progressive , SECULAR state of CANADA.
Secondly Hindus should stay out of this debate .Hinduism lost to Islam for 500 years in North India because of the sick system of caste discrimination and untouchability followed in Hindu India. Hindus can hardly be called more progressive than Muslims infact Islam for all its faults is better than Hinduism cse of its emphasis on brotherhood of Muslims(a concept alien to caste based hinduism) even though this feeling does not extend to other religions.
Finally I believe that South Asia should look at EU as a model where each entity whether Baluchistan , Kashmir , Bihar , Assam ,Bengal/Bangladesh,Punjab is independent self governaning repubic and center at Delhi or Lahore only has Defence , currency and Foreign affairs in its hands just like Brussels model.
And why are Pakistanis attacking Muslim Bihari migrants . I thought Jinnah said that Pakistan is a bulwark of Islam , a homeland for all South Asian Muslims.

I am from Pakistan which was occupied by outsiders i.e. Mohajirs from India. The great problem with Pakistan is that the outsiders think and strive to satisfy their own wishes to full their own pockets and are not loyal to the
land of Pakistan. It`s the same case with the present government of Pakistan who kill his own citizens to remain in power as to carry-out
mega corruptions. Bihares expelled from Assam, must be expelled from Pakistan, too. Pakistanis being unemployed, leave their country for Europe but Musharaf brings Biharis in Pakistan to increase the vote-bank of MQM. This must stop and Musharaf must go, now!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Suhail, you keep on posing like Muslim (and Pakistani), WHO CARES !!!!

Sorry Mr. Khalid, this is my real name. It's no point to glorify things that are just not there. Pakistan was not a defenseless country in 1947, in fact, relative to others, it was a much stronger country in 1947. Pakistan has steadily decreased in power, both military (relative to india) and intellectual.
The reason is that a mix of political instability and religious zealotry has left the Pakistani population without the skills and knowledge to advance in this modern age. You just can't hope to be a power in this day and age just by sheer words. Pakistanis are well known (and laughed at) for their empty rhetoric and big words, but they are always caught short on substance.
It's time for Pakistan to the face the reality.

my general comment is anything that put Pakistan back on the road to democracu and rule of law is welcome.

Suhail (or whatever is your rel name), do not pretend to be a Muslim (and Pakistani). Your writing is clearly showing you are Hidu and having the same wishful thinking. Pakistan will live till doomsday and stay as pain in ass to hindus, provided they change their attitude.

BTW has seen tougher times than these in her short history and has come out even stronger.

Pakistani society, unlike Indian society, is very vibrant (I say so for the reason that if there was a half of the difference of classes in Pakistan that exists in India, there would have been a revolution --- but you are dead people and given opium of religion as Karl Marks phrased it).

So, if you see the history of other vibrant society, say America, thru the history they saw frictions and tussels but these things helped them to improve and rise; If you see through the history of Pakistan that started with a defenseless country in 1947 to a nuclear power today.

I am guessing that the following things would happen in Pakistan begining 2007:
1. Increasing demonstrations, strains in the Society.
2. Extreme measures taken by the Government to avoid its downfall.
3. Cancellation/Voiding of Elections.
4. Downfall of the Military Government.
5. Riots in Karachi, NWFP, Balochistan.
6. Mullahs pitted against the Mohajirs. Shias against Sunnis, Ethnic violence breaks out.
7. Breakdown of Law and order.
8. Joint strikes by India/US/Israel against Pakistani Nuclear installation.
9. Division of Pakistan into two/three states.
10. Iraq/Afghanistan like situation to persist for 2-3 decades.

Sudhir, I agree with you. If India and Pakistan can work together, it would be good for both of us.

I am lost in reading all the comments, digging the history, blaming each other.Bihari etc...
I am the firm believer that India has gain a lot from Mogul rulers and British Raj. Even the three wars India and Pakistan have fought. Due to these wars today India is one. Otherwise every one wants their own be it Punjab, Tamils, ULF the sonor Bangla and to the some extent Pakistan has oneness. Due to this rivalry we are nuclear power no one can treat us like Iraq.
If we really want to solve the problem lets see the good qualities of the opponents and admit it.
Every one has some of them.

Rebel,

Please see my post at 7:10 p.m. on June 5.

Wanna continue the debate, or give up?

You might also like to read the op-ed by Michael Gerson on an Islamic Test for Turkey, that also mentions Indonesia, Malaysia, Morocco, Egypt etc.

Musharref is propped up by billions of dollars of US military aid.He has become an unresponsive puppet to his masters. The US needs a new democratic puppet

Musharref is propped up by billions of dollars of US military aid.He has become an unresponsive puppet to his masters. The US needs a new democratic puppet

Musharref is propped up by billions of dollars of US military aid.He has become an unresponsive puppet to his masters. The US needs a new democratic puppet

Musharref is propped up by billions of dollars of US military aid.He has become an unresponsive puppet to his masters. The US needs a new democratic puppet

Musharref is propped up by billions of dollars of US military aid.He has become an unresponsive puppet to his masters. The US needs a new democratic puppet

Musharref is propped up by billions of dollars of US military aid.He has become an unresponsive puppet to his masters. The US needs a new democratic puppet

n the early 1900s when it looked to the Muslims in what is now India that the British are vulnerable they began their movement to break up India. The result was Partition which clearly stated that 1) the rulers of contiguous states could decide which country they wished to join and 2) That Pakistan was for the Muslims and Muslims could go there any time they wished because it was they who decided on breaking up India for their beloved Islamic state.

The ruler of Jammu & Kashmir with its 40% non-Muslim population decided on merging with India. But Pakistan disrespected his decision and Invaded Kashmir and to this occupies a sizeable part of it despite UN Resolutions asking it to vacate kashmir.

Pakistan also denies the rights of Muslims now in India to migrate to Pakistan. It however more or less completed the ethnic cleansing of Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan where they are now less than 2 million whereas they were nearly 50% of the population of Pakistani Sindh and Pakistani Punjab before Partition.

For Pakistan to have a chance, it must

1) Vacate Kashmir. India will take it back sooner or later and better that India does not have to kill more Pakistani soldiers.

2) take in all Muslims from India. if my family had to flee from Pakistan with only their shirts on their backs then the Muslims now in India can surely be resettled in Pakistan with their shirts on their backs along with some aid.

Finally Pakistanis must decide whether they wish to continue to be Islamic.

Islam was a political and social system devised by Muhammad to unite the Arabs, to gain for them land and wealth and he created a religious facade to fulfill his agenda.

Islam is totally unsuited for democracy for the mentality of the Pakistani people.

the sooner they discard it the better off they will be.

Mohamed Malleck Bhai,

If you would have been a resident of Pakistan and not of Canada, you wouldn't have perhaps claimed to be Happy with all those ingredients around you (as mentioned by you)! Well, ask your countrymen and women if they too share your viewpoint. May be their protest against Musharraf is in "Pursuit of Happyness"!

And, about my post being "intellectually lazy hot air", well, blame the Summer of 2007!

Anju Chandel,

What are the ingredients (getting from here to there)for 'ouster of Musharraf and Vote for a sustainable democracy and be Happy again'?

I am so Happy myself, I spell out the recipe (see mY other posts) for achieving stability, given the ingredients we have at hand -- the MQM, the PPP, the Legislative , the Judiciary, civil society the intelligentsia, Musharraf, Altaf Hussain, Benazir, etc.

Your post by contrast strikes me as intellectually lazy hot air.

Pakistanis are themselves to be blamed for the mess they are in due to their support and confidence in the unintelligent and short-sighted Constitution their so-called Founders or Fathers of their Nation made for governing their newly created country. They gave away too much power in the hands of Army and Religious Fundamentalists and results are for the entire world to see - a completely failed state machinery which functions only on the support-system of Army and Religion and, of course, America. In the process, Pakistanis got reduced to as merely 'living beings'.

All along, their country have also created lots of unprovoked trouble for India (and continue to do so): by attacking it many a times (they lost everytime is a different story they would not like to even admit) and by almost destroying Kashmir - an Indian state - through unchecked terrorism.

Pakistan has also become a terrorists breeding ground and has given the world Taliban and Al-Qaeda, besides thousands of not-so-famously dangerous terrorists.

It is rightly said that "What you sow, so shall you reap". So, they are reaping their bitter fruits now!

Nevertheless, the current display of guts and courage shown by the Pakistanis against the autocratic rule of Gen. Musharraf brings lots of hopes and shows a silver lining that not all is lost as yet. They need to continue to protest vehemently for Pervez Musharraf's ouster and Vote for a sustainable Democracy and be Happy again!

A nuclear arsenal in the hands of mad Muslims was what we really needed now...

God help us all!

Tarik:

Also the suggestion of international administration isn't to harm Pakistan. It wa