Will Israel Survive to 100?


Israel celebrated its 60th birthday this week. Will it survive to celebrate its 100th?

Posted by David Ignatius and Lauren Keane on May 12, 2008 3:45 PM

Readers’ Responses to Our Question (80)

GlobalCitizen :

@ Ansari

You seem to be fed with propaganda of the MMA (Military-Mullah Alliance) in Pakistan.

Pakistan has enough firepower to wipe India and Israel off the world map? Man, where do you come from? What makes you think India and Israel will just watch and wait when those third rate Babur and Shaheen missiles of yours are fired?

You are a joke, just like every other Pakistani in the world!

Israel's survival :

There is no use in quoting people's religious beliefs to hold them up to ridicule. Religious beliefs are by definition ridiculous, including yours. More importantly, while the Holocaust was awful, the Robin Hood act of taking lakefront property and giving it to the Jewish people has settled that account. They have proven themselves to be able to defend themselves fiercely and now demand to be the only ones in the neighborhood with advanced weapons. They have outgrown our help. They are not a state and will have to survive on their own.

Just short time there :

++Israel celebrated its 60th birthday this week. Will it survive to celebrate its 100th?++

WHY? Israel cant coexist peacefuly inside of asian socer world. why should it be there in a 100 years?

Tom Wonacott :

PG

Judaism is the religion of peace. Judaism is not out to conquer the world. There is no clash of civilizations between Judaism and the West. OK?

Tom Wonacott :

Shiveh

I guess if I want my commentary posted, then I need to call the Arab-Israeli conflict a secular war. Did you get that PG? I've changed my position.

Tom Wonacott :

Shiveh

I replied but my post was censored by PG again. They haven't replied to my first inquiry yet (and I don't expect an answer) so I'm not sure why they're being rejected.

Sorry.

Tom Wonacott :

Shiveh

I agree with your assessment that this war is about land, but what are the underlying reasons for the land’s importance? The Holy Land or as its known by the Israelis - the Land of Israel - holds religious importance for Judaism, Christianity and Islam. When Palestine was partitioned, Jerusalem was left under international control (neutral) because of the religious significance to Muslims and Jews (as well as Christians).

Of course from the Israeli perspective, Jerusalem is their holiest site. Jews did not randomly choose Israel, but were motivated by their Jewish roots to return to “the Land of Israel”. Simply put, this was a religious-political (nationalist) movement that began in the late nineteenth century and continues today. Today, at least part of the support by the US is due to “Christian Zionism”.

From the Muslim perspective, Palestine is Muslim “holy“ land. Jerusalem is widely considered the third holiest site in Islam (al-Aqsa Mosque). In Arabic, Jerusalem is known as "al-Quds", meaning "the Holy" (Wikipedia).

From Wikipedia:

“…Muslims believe that prophet Muhammad was taken by the flying animal that do not resemble any animal found on earth Buraq to Al-Masjid Al-Aqsa in Jerusalem, where he prayed, and then ascended to heaven in a single night in the year 620...”

Fundamentalist Islam (Salafism and Wahhabism) also teaches that a Caliphate will reemerge in Islam. “…Every land that was conquered… [and] under legitimate Islamic authority cannot revert back to the infidels…” (From Walid Phares, “Future Jihad”). Israel is a priority, but not the only country that must return to Islamic rule. The attempt by Bin Laden and others to return the Islamic empire to its former greatness is a religious-political movement. Bin Laden always references the “Crusaders”. The Crusades were all about Christians expelling the Muslims from the Holy Land (another religious war). Iran’s (Hamas, Hizbullah and Islamic Jihad) rejection of the state of Israel is religious/political in nature.

In addition, I don’t believe that the Arab countries attacked Israel in 1948 to defend the Palestinians or bring justice for the Palestinians - at least as their first priority. Palestinian refugees have been living in Arab slums for half a century. The Palestinians were always a political tool of the Arabs (in my opinion). They were a made a symbol of the rejection of the Israeli state on Muslim land.

A quote from Benny Morris, a Jewish “new historian” and author of the 2008 book “1948: A History of the First Arab-Israeli War”.

"The 1948 war, from the Arabs' perspective, was a war of religion as much as, if not more than a nationalist war over territory," Morris writes. "Put another way, the territory was sacred, its violation by infidels [Jews] was sufficient grounds for launching a holy war, and its conquest or reconquest, a divinely ordained necessity... The evidence is abundant and clear that many, if not most, in the Arab world viewed the war essentially as a holy war."

I agree that most Palestinians want to stay in Israel, but look at the alternative. My God (no pun intended), the West Bank and Gaza are a mess. Where would they go? I also agree that the Palestinians, no matter what their religious leanings, would have fought to reject the loss of their land, but had the surrounding countries not been Muslim, the likelihood of them attacking Israel -especially in a unified rejection of the Jewish state - would also have been much less. Maybe close to a zero percent probability.

Anonymous :

Without peace, Israel has no assurance it may survive until it is even 61.

Sajid Ansari - Pakistan :

Tom Wonacott :

Well, I agree with most part of your conclusion but TOM probably you do not know the fact that one of the Arabian country had handed over 20 American Pilots to US President after 1967 War as this news had hit the headlines. The Israeli army was not enough, in numbers, to defend their border that’s why US and Britain kept supplying Israel Men n Material throughout the war.

Anyway, personally speaking I do not mind for Jews to have their own homeland which they should have as a nation and there is no harm in trading with them as the Prophet Mohammad(PBUH) used to do business with Jews. But what is not acceptable is its expansionism. Israel should have remained within its 1967 borders and its army should have come back, to 1967 positions, after repulsing the attack that is what we did in 1965 war with India which is 10-time bigger country than ours and our army was also much less in numbers but our soldiers fought like machines to repel Indian aggression on 7 sectors and we pushed them back deep into their territory.

Why we had to go for nuclear…? because India was a constant threat to our sovereignty from the day one as she never wanted division of British India. The threats became more severe when India conducted its first atomic test in Oct.1974 and we were NOT provided Atomic Umbrella by any country like US had provided to Japan in Jan-1965 Summit when China conducted its First nuclear Test in 1964.That is why Pakistan had to go for Nuclear, solely for our safety and security and NOT for and so-called “Religious War” against any non-Muslim country as is thought by Israel and the West. Pakistani Atom Bomb has purely been made to create a 'Balance of Power' in the region. That is why Kissinger said, after Pakistan's atomic tests that ".....any country in Pakistan's position would have gone for it."

India always uses others’ shoulders to “fire” a gun and that is Indian (cunning) diplomacy which 'netted' the West to take strictest measures against Pakistan after Pakistan successfully tested its nuclear experiments and on the other she (India) incited Israel for 1981 type Israeli attack on Iraqi nuclear sites, on Pakistan as well, using Indian air bases and Israel had also planned it in collaboration with India and Britain but when Pakistani intelligence came to know about it the Indian Ambassador was called by the President of Pakistan and was told that ".... the moment aircraft take off from your bases, come what may, in the next few seconds Delhi, Bombay and Tel Aviv will NOT be on the map of the world, better tell it to your bosses in Delhi." and the plan was shelved, at once.

What I mean to tell you and others is that Israel should NOT be worried of Pakistani Atomic arsenals, as long as she does not join hands to harm Pakistani nuclear sites or Macca and Madina with others, for the Muslims of Pakistan Macca and Madina are more important to be safe guarded than our own country and it’s a fact. Therefore, Israel should be careful of Indian “cunning diplomacy” of using other’s shoulders to harm its enemy, sitting behind at the back benches. That’s what she is doing at present in Afghanistan, using both US and Afghanistan for her own ends.

Thanks

Shiveh :

Tom Wonacott,

Why do you call the Arab/Israeli conflict a religious war? The way I see it, Zionist Jews came to Palestine with a plan to build a country, not to fight Moslems. It wouldn’t matter if there were Christians or Hindis living there at the time, they would still come and Palestinians would still resist them. Now, the conflict has a religious overtone because many Moslems side with Palestinians and many Christians have sided with the Jews. But considering that 20% of Israelis are Moslem and based on polls I see, 70% of them like to stay there, also since Egypt and Jordan are at peace with Israel, Turkey never was at war and many Moslem countries outside the region have relations with Israel, why do you think this conflict is and always has been a religious war? When people believe a land conflict is a religious war, it gets much harder to find a peacefull solution.

Tom Wonacott :

Sajid Ansari - Pakistan

Islam has a proud history of conquest that stretches over about thirteen hundred years. Europe was nearly overwhelmed by Muslim conquerors, but the Islamic empire ran into difficult times in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Empires come and go.

Some conclusions:

1. You are entirely correct. The US and Britain (primarily) supported the formation of the state of Israel. The fact that Israel was formed on Palestinian land was wrong although a good case can be made for Israel’s legitimacy. Clearly the Palestinians and Jews could not exist together within a single state, so the British took the action they considered the best for both people - the two state solution.

The British also created Pakistan out of India which (I’m sure) seems entirely fair to you. Yes, I know, Muslims were in present day Pakistan since 712 AD - surprise, by conquest. Pakistan was created entirely for Muslims by the very same British you are convinced divided Arab unity. Personally, I believe the creation of the Muslim state, Pakistan, was the right choice.

2. The Arabs supported a single state that housed both Jews and Arabs. The creation of a Jewish homeland on “Muslim land” was entirely unacceptable to the Arabs. The conflict is and always has been a religious war. The Jews claim ties to the “Land of Israel” and the Arabs claim that land as part of the Islamic empire which must remain (or return) to Islamic rule.

3. No matter what history book you read, US personnel did not participate in any of the Arab-Israeli conflicts. The US government was neutral in the 1948 conflict and provided minor material to Israel in the 1967 war (although US neutrality ended in 1965). After the 1967 war, the American people and government began supporting the Israelis and that support has remained strong ever since and will continue to be strong well into the future.

Personally, I don’t believe the Arabs respected the Jews as fighters (more like dhimmis), but despite a history of severe and brutal oppression under Muslim rule, European dictators, and six million deaths at the hands of the Nazis, the Jews claimed a land of their own. They fought to avoid another holocaust at the hands of the invading Arab armies. Simply put, the Arabs were defeated by a superior army of Jews - three times. After the devastation of WWII, Jewish dignity and pride returned when Israel was created.

“…In 1948 Britain divided the Muslim Empire in small pieces making independent countries, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Egypt in order to break the unity of Muslims and created Israel…”

I can’t comment on that, but the Arabs were very much unified against Israel until Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel. That was devastating to Arab unity. Today, Iran, Syria, Hamas and Hizbollah are unified militarily against Israel.


“…I wish Israel had borders with Pakistan and Turkey then there was NO Israel at all…”

Sorry.

Note that Turkey is a friend to Israel and is currently mediating peace talks between Israel and Syria. I don’t know what Pakistan’s relation with Israel is.

“…Israel has made atomic bomb way back in 1873, soon after the war, of course with the help of US and Britain…”

The French helped build a nuclear reactor in Israel so they get credit indirectly for the creation of nuclear weapons in Israel. The US turned a blind eye, but did not help Israel.

“…And how did you miss 1956 war when Britain + France and Israel attacked Egypt to take-over Suez...? What happened then..? any official version/statement from these countries..?…”

Israel, France and Great Britain responded to Egypt’s nationalization of the Suez Canal by attacking Egypt. All were interested in controlling the canal for various reasons. Britain and France considered the canal vital for their empires, and the Israelis (under an economic boycott by the Arab nations) needed to open the canal for Israeli shipping. The Egyptians and the British were politically at odds over the British role in the creation of Israel. The Suez Canal is (and was) sovereign Egyptian territory.

The US OPPOSED force being used to control the canal. The US also pressured her allies into withdrawing their military forces and also threatened to collapse the economy of the British. In addition, the taking of the Suez Canal by British, French and Israeli forces nearly resulted in a world war as the Soviets threatened to enter the conflict.

Thanks for your post.

Sajid Ansari - Pakistan :

Tom Wonacott :

Been reading official versions/statements of USA, Britain and Israeli governments....? and the same being quoted (by you) whereas the facts are ......

In 1948 Britain divided the Muslim Empire in small pieces making independent countries, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and Egypt in order to break the unity of Muslims and created Israel. Hope if you know what Lawrence of Arabia has been doing there. Britain and USA trained Israeli army, air force and the navy and supplied all types of then state-of-the art weapons which NO ONE can deny.And with due regards, its NOT written on the face of a soldier originally he belongs to which country as if he is fighting from Israeli borders, flying Israeli air plane he is an Israeli whether he was/is a an American or a British who knows.

And how did you miss 1956 war when Britain + France and Israel attacked Egypt to take-over Suez...? What happened then..? any official version/statement from these countries..?

In 1967 war, Washington and Britain made an 'air-bridge' between Washington-Tel Aviv-London for continuous supply of all types of arms, men n material. During this war more than adequate man power had been supplied by USA and Britain ti Israel so much so that One of the Arabian countries handed over 20 US pilots to the President of USA as "Gift" of the 1967 war as they were Americans which was a vital proof that Americans and most likely British soldiers and Pilots have been fighting and taking an active participation in that war. Nobody can Deny it.

In 1973 war even the wife of Anwar Sadaat did not know about the attack from Egyptian side except him and the chief of Egyptian armed forces and he was witnessing a soccer match when Egypt pushed back Israel to the maximum and the poor Israeli soldiers could not fight as they were "ALONE" and US and British "Israeli" soldiers were not there to fight on behalf of Israel which too was an undeniable vital proof that the very existence of Israel is because of USA + Britain.

I wish Israel had borders with Pakistan and Turkey then there was NO Israel at all.Why do you forget that USSR broke down because she could NOT stay in Afghanistan despite fighting for 10 years and now probably US/NATO forces want to test them(Taliban) and they are having a good 'taste' there and also in Iraq.USA army's cold storage in Jaccobabad (Pakistan) is always full of Body bags for which Pentagon has advised US army commend not to send all at the same time.

Israel has made atomic bomb way back in 1873, soon after the war, of course with the help of US and Britain. The 'Cold Test' was done in NOV,73 whereas the "live Test" was conducted at Nevada in 1974, after India's explosion in Oct.1974 but the West has kept quite on the other West made lot of hue and cry when Pakistan conducted nuclear tests in 1998 only for defense purposes, in order to bring the balance of Power, in the region, at an equilibrium level which even Kissinger had said in an interview "...that any country in Pakistan's position would have done it."

And now we CAN hit back Israel, India or nay other country, in seconds, if Israel or India tried to attack our nuclear sites with the help/assistance of any other country.

THANKS to Bhutto who must have smiled in his grave on 28May,1998 when Pakistan conducted Six nuclear tests successfully.Bhutto has written in his book "....every religion in this world has nuclear umbrella for the safety of its believers except Muslims, despite being the richest nation in the world." So we have now.

Stella Oliveros :

Yes, the Holy war is coming where all the religious leaders of the world will go to Israel to support them ....it will be trying times....a war but they will survive to the end of times.

Tom Wonacott :

Shiveh

Thanks for the post. Concerning religion, I am agnostic, but I also believe that faith and religion contribute a lot to people and society. You are way too optimistic toward man’s future. I visualize Balkanization and Mad Max…

I provided alternate reasons why Israel should not directly negotiate with Hamas, but I still don’t favor direct negotiations with Hamas until they recognize Israel’s right to exist. My apologies for giving you the wrong impression. Interestingly, France has been talking to Hamas and a couple of weeks ago, Hamas made the statement that they were willing to accept a Palestinian state within 1967 borders but stopped short of recognizing Israel’s right to exist.

“…Kackermann posting below has some very valid points. (Thanks Kackermann.) I believe his is the direction that the world opinion is moving to…”

Much like Hezbollah in Lebanon, Hamas has been practicing power politics in Palestine - disposing the PA in a coup from Gaza, and at the same time, appealing to the world diplomatically to appear much less radical than Israel has painted them. In an op ed published by the Washington Post (4/17/2008, “No Peace Without Hamas“), Mahmoud al-Zahar (the co founder of Hamas) made statements that obviously were directed at Hamas’s supporters in the West (BBC etc).

Selective quotes from his column are shown at the end of this post.

Al-Zahar uses statements and buzzwords to appeal to people (mostly liberals) who organize anti Israel boycotts, compare Israel to former South Africa and, in general, lead protest against Israel (apartheid, dignity, collective punishment, Carter, the high Palestinian to Israel death ratio, and democratic elections). Of course, al-Zahar is smart to do this.

My favorite is his reference to Jews which suggests a respect for the Jewish people and culture prior to Zionism. In a recently released book (The legacy of Anti-Semitism: From Sacred Texts to Solemn History“), Andrew Bostom “brings massive evidence to show that Jews suffered greatly in Moslem societies due to an antisemitism intrinsic to the Moslem religion. In this he goes against the commonly held belief that Jews under Islam suffered relatively little for being Jewish and that Islam itself is relatively tolerant” (review by Robert Kaplan). Today Hamas as well as some Arab countries teach Palestinians (via Mosques and schools) that Jews come from Apes and Pigs. The anti-Semitism that has been practiced through the ages appears to be just hidden behind Zionism. Maybe the greatest irony of calling Israel apartheid is that Arab societies were very much apartheid in nature and still are bastions of discrimination today against women and minorities.

Al-Zahar further states:

“…Now, finally, we have the welcome tonic of Carter saying what any independent, uncorrupted thinker should conclude: that no "peace plan," "road map" or "legacy" can succeed unless we are sitting at the negotiating table and WITHOUT ANY PRECONDITIONS [my emphasis]…”

Followed by:

“…A "peace process" with Palestinians cannot take even its first tiny step until Israel first withdraws to the borders of 1967; dismantles all settlements; removes all soldiers from Gaza and the West Bank; repudiates its illegal annexation of Jerusalem; releases all prisoners; and ends its blockade of our international borders, our coastline and our airspace permanently. This would provide the starting point for just negotiations and would lay the groundwork for the return of millions of refugees. Given what we have lost, it is the only basis by which we can start to be whole again…”

Sounds like pre conditions are a prerequisite for peace talks after all - at least for Israel. The reference to the 1967 borders is a neat little trick to suggest that this whole conflict is over the Israeli occupation of the West Bank (not the entire state of Israel). He could change that simply by recognizing Israel’s right to statehood on so called Muslim soil - even at the loss of some dignity.

Selected quotes from al-Zahar's column:

“…to its judiciary that "legalizes" the infrastructure of apartheid…”

“…The U.S.-Israeli alliance has sought to negate the results of the January 2006 elections, when the Palestinian people handed our party a mandate to rule. Hundreds of independent monitors, Carter among them, declared this the fairest election ever held in the Arab Middle East. Yet efforts to subvert our democratic experience include the American coup d'etat that created the new sectarian paradigm with Fatah and the continuing warfare against and enforced isolation of Gazans…”

“…November has been consistent with its policy of illegal, often deadly collective punishment -- in violation of international conventions. Israeli military strikes on Gaza have killed hundreds of Palestinians since then with unwavering White House approval; in 2007 alone the ratio of Palestinians to Israelis killed was 40 to 1, up from 4 to 1 during the period from 2000 to 2005...”

“…But now, after decades of imprisonment, killing, statelessness and impoverishment, we ask: What peace can there be if there is no dignity first?…”

“…Judaism -- which gave so much to human culture in the contributions of its ancient lawgivers and modern proponents of tikkun olam -- has corrupted itself in the detour into Zionism, nationalism and apartheid…”

Shiveh :

Tom Wonacott,

It is frustrating when your posts get blocked for no apparent reason. I checked when it happened to me and this is what I found out. PG is using an outside filtering service. Some posts are blocked because they include flagged material. Posts could be quite appropriate, but the filter wouldn’t know it! Maybe PG can explain it better.

BobL-VA

Good to see a fellow atheist.

Statements of opinion are different from statements of facts. The parts in my post that you disagree with are opinions. No doubt the conflict in the Middle East can end by one or both sides destroyed, I just don’t call that a solution.

Yes, for the foreseeable future religion will be a part of human culture, but nothing is permanent, especially when it is based on misinformation. So, please leave me with the hope that one day eventually we will know better!!

The Arab/Israeli conflict has religious overtones, but primarily it is about a land grab. Now, this one is a fact.

Tom Wonacott :

BobL

Johnson sold Jordan $75 million worth of A-4 fighter bombers in 1965 (same year as the tanks) as Jordan threatened to return to the Soviet camp.

Got to go

Shiveh

I posted a response to your last post to me but PG censored it for some reason. At any rate thanks for your posts

BobL-VA :

SHIVEH,

You wrote,

"Negotiations ending in an agreement between Israelis and Palestinians (Hamas is one group among Palestinian groups) not only is possible, it is ultimately the only way that this problem can be solved. "

While I certainly admire your wishful thinking the statement may need to be reworded as it is false. In any political/religous conflict there is always more then one way for conclusions to take place. A definitive war comes to mind as a second way. I'm sure there are many other ways as well.

Also, as a good atheist (if there is such a thing) I have to take exception with your following words,

" I also believe that all religions are man-made, so naturally I believe (hope) that the world will develop towards atheism. So what if Europe becomes majority Moslem, it is a faster way toward atheism!"

A whole lot of clerics and believers would argue religion isn't man made, but I won't as I to believe it is man made However, religion since the beginning of man has been a key component on this planet. Whether we (atheists) like it or not religion is not going away. The influence of religion on this planet is here to stay for many milleniums to come.

The Arab/Israeli conflict is primarily a religious conflict with political overtones and not a political conflict with religious overtones. Hence, if you are waiting for religous relevance to wane to secure a political settlement to the Arab/Israeli conflict you could be waiting 5,000 years.

Tom Wonacott,

The US started funneling arms to Israel under the Kennedy admisistration. Arms sales were escalated under the Johnson adminstration. I believe it was in 1966 we sold the Israelis 200 Patton tanks which were used in the 67' war. Truman's refusal to sell Israel weapons was based on not starting an arms race in the ME and an attempt to keep the Arab Nations friendly towards the US. This policy basically stood through the Eisenhower Administration. Kennedy and Johnson started by funneling defensive weapons to Israel in order to offset Soviet sales to Arab nations until Johnson agreed to sell 50 Phantom fighters and 15 bombers to Israel. They arrived to late for the 67' war, but were used in the 73' war. This is seen as the turning point in US foreign policy in arming Israel with offensive weapons. Once the cat was out of the bag these sales have nothing but increased since. The French had sold offensive weapons to Israel prior to the late 60's US sales. However, the French placed an arms embargo on Israel for the 67' war. While arms shipment to Israel have continued to come out of France, Germany and the UK both legally and illegally since the 67' war the US became and remains Israeli's largest arms supplier. I concur with your assessment the US didn't engage in boots on the ground during the 48,67,73 conflicts, but the US did provid weapons and intelligence in 67 & 73. It should also be noted while the US was and is concerned with other countries developing or acquiring nuclear weapons no such pressure was put on Israel in their muclear arms program.

Bush was correct when he said the US was Israel's oldest ally. Only 1 hour after Israel announced their formation of a govenment the US was the first country to recognize their existance. However, Truman was concerned even that action would alienate the Arab community and took a position of neutrality. Kennedy bent under the pressure of the cold war and Johnson outrightly changed US foreign policy to be pro-Israel and started the process of arming them with the latest and best weapons. It was this process that erased all doubt in the Arab world whose side we were on.

MikeB :

No! And good riddance! Israel has spied on this country, stole military secret and even sold them to enemy states. Israel, for god's sake, took an AWAC airplane, which they "critically" needed, and immediately sold it to China!!! Israel, for all of their whining about Iran, provided a lot of the knowledge and equipment Iran used for their nuclear research. It's way past time we ceased our delussional relationship with this nation of outlaws and anything for a buck capitalists. Cut 'em off and let them barth in their own filth.

Shiveh :

Tom Wonacott,

Excellent rebuttal. Your point of view is clear and valid, yet it is not the only one. I look from a different point of view that shows a different perspective. As mentioned before, I believe democracy is one stage (the present one) in the evolution of social governance, so I expect that all nations (cultures) eventually pass through it in order to get to the next stage (Universality of the democratic principals.)

You participated in the posts between Daniel and I regarding Israel’s Arab minority, so you remember my position regarding mixing of cultures- It is an inevitability, and also a good thing. I also believe that all religions are man-made, so naturally I believe (hope) that the world will develop towards atheism. So what if Europe becomes majority Moslem, it is a faster way toward atheism!

Cultures mix and influence each other, gradually they develop new ones. Expecting an immigrant to set aside his and somehow morph into another is unrealistic. Naturally an immigrant will be influenced much more by the culture prevalent in the host country than it can influence that culture, but it is just a numbers game.

Negotiations ending in an agreement between Israelis and Palestinians (Hamas is one group among Palestinian groups) not only is possible, it is ultimately the only way that this problem can be solved. The negotiations between the EU and Iran have been ineffective because Europeans are telling Iranians although they have all mastered the nuclear technology and are holding it’s threat over their head, they want Iranians to stop learning to use it … and Iranian’s are naturally telling them go fish!! Forcing people to submit to your will by using overwhelming power is not negotiating, it is a temporary solution that hurts both sides. The comparison between the two negotiations is not a fair one. But it is good to see you have changed your position on this. Not negotiating with Hamas because it hurts PA is different from not negotiating with them till they recognize Israel’s right to exist, and that was my point.

Kackermann posting below has some very valid points. (Thanks Kackermann.) I believe his is the direction that the world opinion is moving to.

mohammad allam :

In my study of history i read and understnad that no brutal powers went for long against the wishes of neighbours and the world community.see the case of Roman empire,fate of islamic rule,British imperilaist onslaught and now American and israeli onslaught.The survival of Israel in long run depends upon how peacefully and justicically it solves the facing problems.A nation like Isreal cannot go more than hundred years by backing of thousand miles backing from washington.The change in world powers,Uno restructure,chnaging economic dimension and muslim march towards unity and expansion in America and Europe cannot get as much as bacing in future as it getting now from these western powers. See the case of Bangladesh which lost by pakistan.A nation for so long far backing cannot go long.Let have a peaceful settlement of Palestine cause,Israel will go for 1000 years .otherwise tell me in which period of History Israeli got the so long period of existence.?

Barry O'Toole :

I guess it will. We are in a status quo world, where countries may disintegrate in smaller entities (the USSR, Yugoslavia, Pakistan), but unlike the 19th century, there would be no expansion of empires. There could be economic and/or social federaliztion (EU) this century, but it is very unlikely that Israel would be a part of any such regional union. Like Gibraltar, it is very likely to be sustained as an outpost of the West in a region that is likely to remain volatile and important for many decades to come.

The US may or may not remain an eminent and/or sole superpower in four decades, but it is likely to remain in a coalition of the powerful, just as Britain (the superpower of the 19th century) is today. So, even if the US is not the primary donor to the Jewish state, this coterie of the powerful will ensure that Israel celebrates its centennial.

Tom Wonacott :

Shiveh

Thanks for the post. You make some great points and some that I disagree with. Stanley Fish challenges conventional wisdom that people want to live under a democratic system. I’ve read some more Fish articles but none that I’ve noticed measure up to this “outside the box” thinking.

I’ve always been one that believes that people do want to live in a democratic system (standard neoconservative thinking), but Fish makes some interesting points and I’ve been forced to look at other ideas. Yes, I believe all people are the same, but cultures are not, and we are a product of our environment. Its not coincidence that right-leaning governments have been elected in many EU countries in recent years. This is due in part to the mass immigration of legal and illegal people from outside of Europe - mostly Muslims from the Middle East and North Africa. Assimilation seems to be the key whereas multiculturalism encourages ethnic nationalism and the retention of the immigrants culture. Time certainly could bring the Balkanization of parts of Europe or loss of freedoms such as speech - especially since assimilation in Europe has failed to this point.

Yes, western liberal democracy can improve but looking to the “east” for criticism really is just another way of fostering multiculturalism. Immigration is great, but learn our laws and customs, and accept our culture. The payback is great - opportunity, freedom and protection against majority tyranny. We shouldn't have to win the hearts and minds of immigrants - in fact, just the opposite. Assimilation has been much more successful in the US than Europe, and I believe that socialism has contributed to the problem to a much larger degree in Europe.

You are completely right, I am not a skilled negotiator, or, in fact, a negotiator at all. To begin with, direct negotiations with Hamas would undermine the Palestinian Authority and that is a concern that the Israelis have to respect. Jimmy Carter did Abbas no favors by sitting down with Hamas leaders. Hamas took control of the Gaza by force. Hamas needs to fully relinquish its control over Gaza and reconcile with Abbas since Abbas is the President of the Palestinians. It is not coincidence that Hamas and Hezbollah have used the same “negotiating “ strategy to achieve their goals. In affect, Hamas undermined their own elections and should pay the price. If the Israelis do directly negotiate with Hamas, they might be able to agree to a truce, but not lasting peace. That’s an impossibility.

I think that one important point concerning the Palestinians is that they are not stupid and we shouldn’t treat them that way. Hamas has not been shy about their intentions or their charter. The Palestinians made their choice (by ballot) and have to live with it. I agree that the Palestinians have lost their dignity and that is probably part of the reason that Hamas was voted into office.

Today, everyone favors negotiations for everything. In world politics, negotiations are much more effective if backed up by a military force (that you are willing to use) and strong sanctions. Hamas and Hezbollah are classic examples of negotiating from a position of power. I may not be a skilled negotiator, but I am certain that the EU has skilled negotiators. The EU has been negotiating with Iran for years to no avail over their nuclear program. The sanctions imposed by the UN are ineffective. The EU is Iran’s largest trading partner and they could really put economic pressure on Iran, but their will (oil and gas driven) is weak.

One can argue, successfully in my opinion, that Israel risked a war against Syria to destroy their nuclear plant because the world has failed to stop Iran‘s nuclear program. Prior to the bombing, Rice encouraged Israel to go through the UN to challenge Syria. Her advice would probably been correct and heeded by the Israelis if Iran’s program had been halted. The damage done by our intelligence report was immeasurable to our “bargaining position” in these negotiations - a fact that could well lead to a war between Israel and Iran as well as the US and Iran (still a possibility).

kackermann :

20% of the Israeli population is Arab, and that is a positive. They enjoy citizen rights such as voting, but do not yet enjoy what are called nationality rights. 70% of Arab Israeli's would prefer to remain Israeli citizens in the event a Palestinian state is formed. On one level, this proves that Arabs and Israeli's can exist side-by-side in peace, but:

Of the 40 towns in Israel with the highest unemployment rates, 36 are Arab towns. Difficulties in procuring employment have been attributed to a comparatively low level of education vis-a-vis their Jewish counterparts, insufficient employment opportunities in the vicinity of their towns, discrimination by Jewish employers, and competition with foreign workers in fields, such as construction, agriculture, etc.

According to the Central Bank of Israel statistics for 2003, for those Arabs citizens who are employed, salary averages are 29% lower than salary averages for Jewish workers.

That was from Wiki and should ring at least vaguely familiar as an under-served class. It sounds like Israel has some of the same internal problems we have had, and still do to some extent. One difference is that we do not control any occupied territories whose population is nearly the same as our citizenship. One half of that population are officially listed as refugees.

Now the bad news: there are problems between Israel and the occupied territories, and the problems are getting worse. Their problems have very much become our problems. In fact, those problems are the touchstone for nearly all issues that we deal with in the Mid-East. It's not about a group of displaced people; it's about the cause that has risen over the group of displaced people throughout the Arab (and Persian) world.

Assigning blame for the problems is both futile and useless. Blame is always a backward-looking affair, so right away we can eliminate 50% of the problems from a temporal perspective; we agree to only look forward.

Israel is understandably worried; they control a population that is fervently against the state, and will soon number larger than their own population. What surprises me is that Israel thinks an acceptable solution is to keep this population scratching in the dirt and stripped of dignity. The Palestinians certainly are not blameless, but Israel is imposing collective punishment on the entire population. They, and we, have imposed brutal conditions on this population ever since the Palestinians democratically elected the wrong government.

I don't make any claims to wisdom so any judgment I pass must be greatly discounted as the observations of a possibly wrong-thinking individual. With that said, it appears to me the way the governments of Israel and the US are thinking is that through oppression, the population will begin to appreciate both the Israelis and the US much more. I think we are hoping for a large scale Stockholm effect. I have doubts about this strategy and there may be historical precedence to back that up.

But is it insane to try the same thing again? It may get a different result.

I don't care what kind of bluster Bush and McCain make about appeasement, Both Obama's and Clinton's website seem to favor towing the line with Israel exactly as it is. They suggest virtually nothing new. To recap, the current strategy can find its roots in that forward-thinking institute called Project for A New American Century. I don't remember all the details, but I do remember it didn't have a plan B. Plan A had something about reshaping the entire world and bla bla.

I have a much simpler suggestion but it involves some tough love. Since we all know a separate state only draws an official border around the problem, and may never happen anyway, we should feel free to take some baby steps right away in help Israel help itself.

First, it must be stated very clearly that the country named Israel will always exist, and that the US will never allow any sovereign nation to attack it. The US should also demand that Israel begin restoring dignity to the people in the occupied territories. This includes stopping some of the irritants such as building settlements. I think a great show could be made of this by giving any new settlement sufficient notice of evacuation and then televise the tomahawking of the settlement, kind of like what Israel does when it destroys the structures of Palestinian leaders on TV.

I never understood Israel's attitude with regards to the settlements. They lose nothing and gain everything by not having them. It might embarrass them a bit, but it would greatly enhance the sense of fairness in our dealings if we publicly demand a permanent stop to the settlements. Israel is staring down the barrel of much larger problems than a little slap. Israel is quite possibly facing a fundamental change to their charter, one that moves them from a Jewish state to a state of its citizens. As jarring as that sounds, worse things have happened. All men are created equal and destroying the Mid-East is not an acceptable solution to preserve an identity. Culture is practiced, not imposed.

Until Israel and the US face up and play fair, their problems will persist. It could reach a tipping point someday. It is possible that their continued policies will start to take on an overtly apartheid-like quality, and support will collapse.

There are ambiguous signals about Israel's intentions with settlements in the near future. If they build, what conclusion must I (and you) make about that government?


Anju Chandel :

Well, will humanity be around then?

Shiveh :

TOM WONACOTT

More I visit people from around the world, more I realize that people are basically the same. Of course there are notable differences among people in various regions of the planet, thousands of years of conformity does that to you, but the similarities are prevalent. It makes the notion that democracy may suit some people and not others shortsighted. The democratic principals are universal if only because they are a stage in the social development of the planet. I believe the call that democratic governance is the best form for managing our affairs (amongst the various systems we’ve tried) is accurate, but the notion that it’s the best possible that humanity will ever come up with, is clearly absurd.

Democracy in theory is not democracy in action. There are still a lot of corrections, enhancements and improvements that need to be implemented. People who are not so submerged in our version of the democratic governance look more critically at these imperfections and remind us that this is not the end of the search. Equating this dissatisfaction with rejection of the democratic thought among some cultures, say Middle Easterners, is a hasty conclusion. The idea that different packages of democratic systems are suitable for different cultures is an attempt to divert these imperfections from the system to the people.

At current stage of implementation in Western societies, there are at least two basic problems associated with democratic governance. The first one is the inability of the system to confront the influence of money in the process of decision making. The other is the absence of any provision to value knowledgeable decision making in the concept of “one person, one vote.” If West believes that Democratic system of governance brings about “the end of history”, then it is up to the East to introduce the next step in the evolution of social governance.

On another note - You are correct in your assertion that Hamas is not a democratic institution. I also agree with you that although they came to power using democratic means, they can not be considered as part of the democratic system if only because they do not follow democratic procedures. I disagree with you on the reaction of US and Israel to the outcome of the election. The said governments should have been the first to accept and honor the results of the election regardless of its outcome. Proving to Palestinians that they believe in democracy only when the results are agreeable to their policies was a mistake that will take a long time to repair. I do not believe anybody in Arab circles bought the argument that accepting the results does not mean they have to work with chosen representation when they do not want to. The peace process at this stage should include Palestinian representatives or it is a dead process.

Also, your insistence on excluding the Hamas from the process because their stated goal is the destruction of Israel tells me that you are not a skilled negotiator. Negotiation is an art as well as a science. I’m not going to try to explain it here, just want to emphasis that after intense negotiations usually people do not end up with what they start with. That is what negotiating is for anyway.

After witnessing the Arab – Israeli conflict for all these years, I’m convinced that Palestinians more than anything else want their dignity back. After 60 years of not being on those farms, I do not thing they are farmers anymore. So that part can be negotiated. But telling them that they were thrown out of their homes by force and they are not worthy of consideration is taking their dignity as honorable human beings from them. In their view, that leaves them with absolutely nothing and makes them stubborn to the end. This is not the way for a skilled negotiator to open any negotiations.

Tom Wonacott :

Sajid Ansari - Pakistan

“…Well, some one said that Israel defeated Arabs in 1948,1967 and 1973. Sorry, he/she was wrong as it was NOT Israel alone as USA + Britain/EU + Israel jointly defeated Arabs in 'imposed' wars in 1948 and 1967. Whereas in 1973 Egypt defeated and pushed back Israel from Suez and their area of Sinai desert, that was the time when Israel had to fight alone and was defeated miserably or Is it wrong..?…”

Been reading a history book written by the Taliban? Israel, alone, crushed the Arab armies (Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq) in 1948. About 600,000 Israelis defended against the Arab invasion and expanded their national boundaries in the process - with no help from the US government. In fact, the US government imposed an arms embargo on the region in December, 1947! The British (happily) left Palestine after Israel declared independence (1948), and, for the most part, were not involved except the Egyptians fought with British Spitfires. The Israelis, however, had many volunteers immigrate into the country (from 37 different countries) to join the war effort. Israel lost about 1% of her population in the war.

The US government maintained an official neutral role toward the Israeli-Arab conflicts with the exception being the yon kippur war in 1973. The US began its policy of “Israeli military superiority” over its neighbors AFTER the 1967 war. The US and Britain did not participate in the 1967 war - according to Soviet Intelligence. Once again the Arabs were defeated by the Israelis. The Israelis preempted the Egyptians by destroying their Soviet supplied Air Force and gained military superiority in the air. Nasser announced that the US and Britain had helped Israel, but this was simply false, but much damage was done in the Arab world which believed (obviously to this day) that Israel had help from the US and Britain. Military equipment was supplied principally by the French who, incidentally, also helped build Israel’s nuclear facilities. They are (indirectly) responsible for Israel’s nuclear weapons development.

The US did help the Israelis in the Yon Kippur War by supplying military hardware to the Israelis - especially during the war. The (always principled) Europeans under a threat of an oil embargo did not supply munitions to the Israelis. In affect, Israel was completely dependent on the US. Again, the Arabs were supplied by the Soviets and Israel - for the first time - had US equipment and weapons. None the less, Israel defeated the Arabs despite the surprise attack.

HezbAllah held off Israel but certainly did not defeat them - or even come close. HezbAllah fought a defensive war (successfully) but how would they attack Israel other than Iranian supplied rockets? Pickup trucks?

In conclusion, The US took a neutral position regarding the Israeli-Arab wars with the exception of the yon kipper war in 1973. Even then, the US only supplied military equipment. The US has not fought in any of the Israel-Arab wars although Nasser spread the lie to excuse their defeat in 1967. The wars were fought by the Israelis and Arabs that were both supplied by outside parties but other states (Soviet Union, US, Britain and Europe) did not actually participate in the fighting.

Tom Wonacott :

BobL

Nothing seems to irritate posters more than discussions involving Hamas. Of course that’s what I expect of Hamas, but many people don’t seem to understand (or refuse to understand) that Hamas is ideologically driven to eliminate Israel - not live along side of Israel. In discussions involving peace (and whether Israel will survive), that must be taken into account.

I’m not exactly sure why you went off on a tangent about US policy. I think if you look at the conflicts around the globe, you’ll see that most countries and/or resistance (or terrorist) organizations want peace on their own terms and therefore peace is hard to attain. Democracy is a term thrown around a lot today; heck, even Bin Laden uses the term, but (given a free rein) the chances of him developing a western liberal democracy are as likely as his conversion to Catholicism and living to tell about it.

It shouldn’t shock you that the US interest is the first priority of the US. Notice the gas prices lately? Of course, we would love the world to embrace our form of democracy, but that is not always practical so we prop up regimes friendly toward our interest i.e., foreign aid. Of course, many people oppose this strategy and it does come back to bite us on occasion.

Why we support Israel so strongly is an interesting phenomenon. The US government was neutral toward Israel until after the 1967 Arab-Israeli conflict when the Israelis (French supplied weapons) defeated the Soviet backed Arabs. Opposition to the Soviets was one reason why. Another is that our TV’s (news organizations) have blasted us for the past forty years with the images of terrorist attacks on the Israeli population (civilians). That carnage has affected us all. Finally, we are a very religious country relative to the Europeans and we relate very strongly to the Jewish people (Christian Zionism).

“…No one or no organization is going to hold a referendum and let the people of the region vote on whether Israel should be allowed to exist or not. We know what the outcome would be and we don't like it. So much for democratic principles and concepts like self-determination…”

Democracy can just be tyranny by vote (majority rules). The protection of the minorities within our society is what makes our democracy such a powerful system. That does not exist within the Middle East. While Hamas was elected to office, they are not a democratic organization to be sure (2007 coup, for example). Did you notice that their cousins in Lebanon, Hezbollah, made a joke of that countries fledgling democratic system recently?


Probably the most interesting paper I’ve read over the past year was the one written by Stanley Fish (“Why Democracy?”) for the New York Times which discussed whether some cultures really wanted democracy or worked bettor (preferred) some other form of government. Fish's hypothesis makes sense, at least as a general statement since, obviously, not all people in a given culture think alike. Some Muslims will fit into a western democracy but others are obviously offended by it.

We discussed Stanley’s paper when it was published. He wrote :

“…The same reasoning applies to the question of whether democracy is good for everyone. It depends on whether you think democracy is the form of government history has been working its way toward (Francis Fukuyama’s thesis in “The End of History”) or is merely one option among others. If you are of the former opinion (as the present administration seems to be), you will believe that the more your adversaries are exposed to democratic ideas, the more attractive they will find them. But if you distrust teleological arguments (as I tend to), you will be skeptical of the possibility of exporting democracy and think of it instead as something others might take or leave, depending on what they hold dear.
Given that democracy privileges some values — personal mobility, individual entrepreneurialism, tolerance, cosmopolitanism — and downplays others — community, ideological conformity, cultural stability — its attraction will vary with the values a particular society embraces. A society for example that rests on a strong religious foundation may find some democratic practices useful, but it will not be inclined to fight and die for them…”

So is it possible to democratize the people of Afghanistan or Iraq (or any country in the Middle East)? Maybe to a certain extent but certainly not to our standards simply because they probably don’t want a western liberal democracy. So the question really becomes not only whether you can impose democracy militarily on a Muslim country, but given the wholesale immigration of Muslims to Europe, what are the ramifications for European democracy since demographic projections indicate a Muslim majority in the future. To me, at the very least, their democracy is in danger of significant changes. Can you democratize immigrants who come from cultures radically different from ours? Again, maybe not to our standards.

Sorry about rambling on democracy, but you brought up the topic.

George Manuelian :

Israel should not even be in existence, period. I hope it doesn't last another day. The Jews control our media in this country, and we don't hear the truth about what those parasites have done to destroy the world.

George Manuelian
Atherton, CA

Sajid Ansari - Pakistan :

Well, some one said that Israel defeated Arabs in 1948,1967 and 1973. Sorry, he/she was wrong as it was NOT Israel alone as USA + Britain/EU + Israel jointly defeated Arabs in 'imposed' wars in 1948 and 1967. Whereas in 1973 Egypt defeated and pushed back Israel from Suez and their area of Sinai desert, that was the time when Israel had to fight alone and was defeated miserably or Is it wrong..?

And why the defeat of Britain + France + Israel by Egypt in 1956 has been forgotten that is why USA had to join Britain and Israel in 1967.

Then in 2007 HizbAllah defeated Israel, in Lebanon.

So this is a hard fact that Israel can never fight alone thats is why her 'Mom' and 'Dad' are always there to protect her.

As for as Israel celebrates her 100th birthday, or NOT, is known only to Allah as NO ONE knows what happens tomorrow.

BobL-VA :

Tom Wonacott,

What would you expect from the head of Hamas? Maybe something along the lines of, "We've decided to adopt a good neighbor policy with Israel."

When we (the US) throw around words like peace and democracy they always come with strings attached. What we're really saying is we promote peace and western style deomcracies when it is convienent for us and fits into our vision. God forbid it falls outside our vision because if it does you can throw both of these words right out the window. Neither peace nor democracy will ever be accused of standing in the way of what we want.

Most things in life come with a price tag. Why should Israel itself and our support of Israel be any different? In this case the price has been and will be for the forseeable future conflict with their neighbors and the Palestinians. No one or no organization is going to hold a referendum and let the people of the region vote on whether Israel should be allowed to exist or not. We know what the outcome would be and we don't like it. So much for democratic principles and concepts like self-determination.

The very best we can do is to try to contain the violence to a level that doesn't assualt the senses. Who knows, over the next couple of centuries the Muslims might get used to Israel. Then again they may not.

Tom Wonacott :

From the Jerusalem Post, May 14th, some words of wisdom from the co founder of Hamas - Mahmoud Zahar:

"Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar said Wednesday that a Palestinian state will be established on all of the land of Palestine and not only on parts of it, and that it will include "Jaffa, Lod and Haifa."

Zahar also reiterated Hamas' unwillingness to recognize the State of Israel and said that the group "will continue to persecute the Zionists wherever they are, after we prove that the Zionist army can be defeated - contrary to what was believed in the past, that it is impossible to beat the Zionists."

Speaking in the Gaza Strip, he went on to affirm Palestinian right of return, claiming that the "right of return of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians is closer than ever."

"After we defeat the Zionists we will persecute them… we will persecute them to eternity, and the sun of the freedom and independence of the Palestinians will burn all of the Zionists," he continued..."

Anonymous :

60 years is nothing in history. There have been many ideas bigger than this Israel story that eventually collapsed--USSR is one, Nazi Germany is another, The French 4th Republic, etc. etc.

Israel must act like a grown up member of world society to survive. That is a big definite may be.....

Tom Wonacott :

Lena, Tel Aviv


“…But it shouldn't be. Israel is the only homeland in the world to the Jewish people, one in which its roots extend back thousands and thousands of years. Hence, its creation in 1948 is not a wrong, as you put it "Saddened" - it was in fact not some kind of historical anomaly, but rather a gradual process that, believe it or not, took place over decades of internal state-building…”


Israel was created from immigration that began in the late 19th century. Jewish immigrants were hard working, industrious, self governing and developed the land for farming and industrial/business centers. By the end of WWI, the British noted that the Jews (already) had all the characteristics of a nation state.

There is no question that the Jewish people have religious and historical ties to Palestine, and as I mentioned above, they created a nation state within Palestine so an additional case can be made that the Jewish immigrants also earned the right to self determination. It may not be politically correct in our multiculturalist view of the world (western society), but I personally believe that a homeland for the Jews is just and should be preserved.

All that being said, the Palestinians were driven from THEIR land. In 1880, it is estimated that the Jews in Palestine numbered approximately 5000 (prior to Zionism). That is only about 1% of the population which consisted predominantly of Palestinian Arabs. The goal of Zionism was a Jewish state. The Palestinians recognized the goal of Zionism and resisted it (presumably for the same reason as Israelis resist radical Islamist from destroying Israel today i.e., in defense of their land).

Try as I have, it’s simply impossible for me to reconcile that the Jews DISPLACED the Palestinians. To be sure, the Balfour Declaration was included in the League of Nations mandate for Palestine, thus Israel is legal, but that is much different than RIGHT. I am curious how you feel about pushing the Palestinians from their homeland (if you feel that at all) to create Israel?

While you are pondering that question, I also can understand the large amount of security checkpoints in the West Bank to prevent suicide attacks, disproportionate responses to terrorism from Hamas firing rockets into Israel (heavy loss of life of Palestinians as opposed to Israelis) and a heavy military presence in both the West Bank and Gaza, but for the life of me, settlements (illegal or otherwise) in the West Bank make no sense to me regarding peace and security. The perceived Israeli land grab has brought a great deal of world condemnation to the Israelis. I understand that there is a significant proportion of Israelis that oppose the settlements. Where do you stand on this issue?

blackengland :

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BobL-VA :

Lena,

I am truly shocked. I didn't think there was a person on the face of this planet who would even attempt to paint Israel as a "good neighbor" to the Palestinians. I can only assume you were smoking something illegal when you worte this. There are multiple arguments for the existance of the State of Israel and most of them are related to the Halocaust and Divine Right. There certainly is a legal basis for their existance. However, in setting up the State there were winners, as well as losers. The biggest losers were the Palestinian people. Your attempt to paint the Palestinian people as a victim of a few radicals in their midst is in the purest sense of the word delusional.

Israel basically came into existance through a hostile takeover to use a business phrase. Yes, it was legal, but it made a whole lot of people very unhappy. It is much easier to argue Israel came into existance legally in an area of the world that was not going to be supportive of it's existance and the price to be paid for their hostile takeover is living in a country that spends a greater percentage of their GNP on their military then any other country in the world to assure their continued existance. Israel may be many wonderful things, but a good neighbor it is not.

Shiveh :

Nicolas Folin – Have you ever been in a war? Are you ready to die in a “good” war? Or to send your children to die in one? You romanticize violence. Dare your countrymen to cleanse Israel of its Arab impurities before it is too late; a “demographic Holocaust” you call it. Where were you when Nazi’s were killing your country men? You would fit in beautifully, a leader even. But, I say not, since yours is a coward mentality.

When you put “Jewishness” before “humanness” you lose both. When you want a country to rule rather than a land to live in, you secure neither. And when you romance with war, war will be your companion. May you enjoy this old witch of a bride before she sucks you dry.

Nicolas Folin :

Insight

The issue is not peace or not peace or war, the issue is the existence. The noble wisdom of all the wisdoms is to serve the existence at the best way. The problem of the Jews is not so much absence of weapons, as the absence of will to fight, as the absence of will to live. As far as the absence of will to fight, they want more weapons. The problem of the Jews is not so much absence of peace as absence of war, good war, and smart war. The only way that Israel can save herself from demographic holocaust, in Israel itself (what called the green line), is to transfer the Arab propulsion, in Israel itself, (what called the green line) OUT. The best way to do this is through war. In my opinion Israel must manipulate condition that makes it more easer to make the transfer of the Arabs in the green line (at least)OUT, even in the cost of war. Even in the cost of eating bread and water. I call it the second war of independence (during the first war of independence, in 1947/8, the Jews transfer 600000 Arabs, and because this it became possible the creation of the Jewish state).The demographic holocaust in Israel (in the green line) now is, mainly, the cost of the mistake of the Jews in 1947/8, when the Jews did not transfer all the Arabs in the green line. As I say, the Jews don't want to fight. Corrupt opportunist gangs, most of them are descendants of Jews that escape from Europe, control: the universities , the army, the Mossad(the intelligence) ,the Shabak(the secret police), the government, the legislature, the judiciary, the police, the media, the eastern Jews, the Russian Jews( these who not, yet, immigrate from Israel), the bureaucracy, the religion, the money, the land, the works, the movement, the fear. The fear of these corrupt opportunist gangs is that America stop to ship weapon to Israel. The fear of those corrupt opportunist gangs is to lose the power and the control over the country. The fear of those corrupt opportunist gangs is to lose their sons in war. See how the corrupt Sharon makes it possible the murders of more than 1000 Jews (many of them children) in suicide bombe during second Intifada, Only because he (and the corrupt opportunist gangs) fear to lost the power. See the poor corrupt Olmert, that seem like the caricature of Jew that get out from Der Stuermer. The creation of Israel become possible mainly because the holocaust, from two reasons: the first reason hundred of thousand Jews that fled from Europe, the second reason is the will of the Jews to fight, they wanted to revenge after the holocaust. Now those reasons vanish. This year, more Jews leave Israel (5000) compare to the number of Jews immigrates to Israel. Take in account the fertility of the Arabs in the green line. Take in account the fertility of the Jews in the green line. Take also in account the demographic holocaust of the Jews in Diaspora, the assimilation. In my opinion, Israel, like in physics, will move until the moment of the inertia will vanish. Every one knows this: the Arabs, the Americans, the Europeans, the corrupt opportunist gangs that control the country. Who do not know that, or repress the facts, are the poor Jewish masses. It seems that the Jews go mad, have psychological problem. Who these that lead themselves to demographic suicide? Way? What happen here? You ask me why this is the course of Israel, of the Jews? And my answer, without to widen, is the civilization of the Jews (the religion is part of the civilization). See for example the Turks; they are not smarter than the Jews (at least the western Jews) but see how they succeed during the history. Way? The answer is because they are nation, they are tribe, and their civilization is healthier, they are healthier in their mind, they want to live and they will do every thing to live. They ready to fight. They want to fight. They will survive. Israel will not survive. Israel will be episode of the history. Israel and the Jews go and will go out of the frying pan into the fire. Now it seems that this is the course of their destiny, their history. So I see the destruction of the third house. I see the house that go up in flames, and I can not do anything. I think I have to turn my back and go away. In the end of the day every one deserves what he deserves.


Oy! :

Go, Lena, Go!

Israel is a wonderful place, rich in history, especially of the three major Western religions.
Dig down through progresive levels and you see who was in power in different places at different times over the past 5000 years or so. The deepest layers, always Jewish. Some of the subsequent ones, too.

Since the Jews were mostly kicked out of Israel 1900 years ago, and were subsequently kicked out of almost every country that provided only temporary sanctuary, where in the world else could the Jews go but Israel? And who else has (re)settled a place providing far more rights and privliges to the minority population than the Jews/Israelis?

Stop reading the Protocols and treating it as fact, stop listening to Arab/Muslim propaganda that demonizes the Jews and the West in ways learned and copied from the Nazis.

Visit the Holocaust museum, any of them. See what hate and lies can bring to an innocent people. And see what the consequences are for those around them.

Ask why Israel can resettle Jews kicked out of Arab countries, but the Arabs can resettle a smaller number in any country.

Ask which Arab/Muslim governing body contains any Jews, any Christians, or any non-Muslim. Then ask that question of Israel, which includes non-Jewish (hostile) legislators.

Ask any Arab/Muslim why the only factory built in Gaza since Israel left is the bomb and rocket factory, and not the anything else factory.

Ask them who has the higher lifestyle, better education, freedom of speech, the right to vote, etc, the Arab in Israel or the one in Egypt, Libya, Iran, Syria, etc.

Ask them where their daughters or wives will have more privilges or rights, the Arabs of Israel, or those under the Taliban in Afghanistan, in Saudi Arabia, or elsewhere.

Ask why, in over 100 years, the Arab/Muslims have worked on war and hate, and not on peaceful co-existance with the Jews, why they sided with the Nazis, and harbored the Nazis after the war, why they won't take the technology to make the desert bloom, but will invest billions in making war.

A Jewish Israel will be here at 100, 1000, and 10,000! Not so sure about its enemies...

Ekalavya :

Israel need not worry of it's existence at all since both the offshoot desert cults with violent propensity are going to be obliterated sooner rather than later. The later one with a deranged rapist/looter/mass murderer founder will be the first to go followed by the more insidious white ant like former one. Both these founder conmen claimed direct non-stop communication with their own brand of advertised "Makers" (one of whom Jehovah even declared once to a poor woman "I am against you, and will lift up your skirts over your face; I will show the nations your nakedness and kingdoms your shame.") but who never bothered to tell these self appointed representatives that the Earth was almost spherical and it went round the Sun. The world would be a better place if both these cults self destruct as their own kind have correctly predicted (Na Musa Na Isa by that mass murderer cum rapists cum plunderer thug called Pagy and the other one's Malaichy's claim that the present Pope is the last but one). In fact Pagy Mohd said that his violent cult would end in 1400 years and by his warpy 354 days a year calculation meant Nov 1979, in fact an Iranian Islamic group aptly named Devi (Parmatma Shiva's wife is called Parvathi Devi) entered the tomb of 360 Shiv Ling idols aka Kaabha and shot dead over 3000 people. What started in 1979 will probably end in 2032. And it will be a red letter day for the world in general and a new Deepavali has to be started.

As Koenraad Elst said in The Psychology of Prophetism (http://www.bharatvani.org/books/pp/)

“Prophetism has caused innumerable hardships without giving anything valuable in return. Not one of the valuable things in the cultures dominated by it, can be traced to their prophetic-monotheistic component. Its source has more often than not been mental darkness. Today, there is no justification for keeping humanity in the mental prison of prophetism any longer.”

Tom Wonacott :

PG

The Rise of Islamism and the Failure of Terrorism.

The Jewish state will survive in tact the next forty years and beyond. Terrorism has created a nationalism within Israel strongly supported by the US which has led to the implementation of policies that are conducive to Israel’s survival as a Jewish state; for example, selective Jewish immigration to retain a demographic advantage. Terrorism has allowed the Israelis to stack the deck in favor of their survival - mostly at the expense of the Palestinians (the wall, for example). The rise of Islamic terrorist organizations such as the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and Hamas - which openly pledge the destruction of Israel - only instills a greater sense of survival in the Israelis and guarantees additional hardships for the Palestinians (Gaza, for example, which Hamas rules by a 2007 coup). Hezbollah and Hamas (as well as Syria and Iran) cannot defeat Israel by conventional military means. Only a nuclear weapon can end the Jewish state in the near future.

Arab armies attacked Israel in 1948, 1967 and 1973. Israel defeated the Arab armies which led to the rise of terrorism and war by proxy to defeat Israel, but terrorism has clearly failed. Arafat recognized that Israel could not be defeated militarily which led to Israel’s recognition by the Palestinians in the 1993 Oslo Accords. In 2001, the Arab League offered complete recognition to Israel if Israel returned to the 1967 borders - tacitly admitting that members of the Arab League are powerless to defeat Israel either directly or by proxy. Terrorism has also served to reinforce the US support of Israel both militarily and economically. Today, the Palestinians live in a hellhole strangled by a network of Israeli security checkpoints, financial boycotts and a wall built to prevent suicide terrorism while the Jewish state has developed a strong economy and military that far surpasses her neighbors. Israel is thriving and the Palestinians are suffering.

The rise of Islamism has negated the Arab Leagues attempt at diplomacy (by design). Today, Iran finances and trains Hamas, Hezbollah and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. Islamists are ideologically driven. Israel was created on “Islamic soil” and, therefore, must be removed. Iran has patiently built a new “axis of evil” to rally Arab and Persian support against Israeli invincibility. The alignment of Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah and Syria only serves to strengthen Israeli resolve however. In a perfect multicultural, democratic Middle East, the Jewish state would not survive because of demographics, however, terrorism has created conditions that ensure the preservation of Israel as a Jewish state, and these conditions won’t change significantly well past her 100th birthday.

BobL-VA :

The year is 2048 and there is a single line in Washington Post online that reads, "Another Mid East Peace Summit will be taking place in Washington this week." (Print media hasn't been around for over 10 years) No one can remember how many "Peace Summits" there have been at this point and frankly, almost no one cares any longer.

Nothing much has changed in the Mid East. The Muslim world wants the State of Israel to cease to exist. Israel is still invoking the halocaust and divine right as the basis for their existance. The Arab world hasn't been successful in mounting any type of campaign that would lead to their reclaiming what they consider their land and ridding themslves of what they consider the Jewish blight. This uneasy and often deadly status quo has been assisted and somewhat orchestrated by western political, economic and military intervention in the Arab world.

In fact about all that has changed is weapons, munitions and tactics have evolved. The rockets have more accuracy and more destructive power. The suicide bombers can now take out a whole city block. Israeli responses are swifter and more deadly then they were 40 years earlier. The Palestinian problem isn't as acute as it was in 2008 simply because so many of them have been killed, starved to death or the few lucky ones who actually fled the region.

I am fully aware this is a rather bleak picture of 2048 but the best indicator of what will happen in the future is based off of what has happened in the past. We have 60 years of continued conflict to look at and two sides with nothing in common that detest each other. Predicting the future of Israel isn't very difficult. Just more of the same, but a little bit deadlier.

daniel :

Israel can survive to be a hundred and possibly much older but so much depends on surrounding states (Egypt, Lebanon, Syria) as well as Palestinians improving economically. Of course if there is no surrounding economic improvement Israel can still survive, but it will be an ugly, constantly at low level war survival. The best bet is total economic improvement in the area. But there is something of a catch-22 in this best of scenario of total economic improvement: Israel will probably become more diluted with various peoples and lose some of its power as a strictly Jewish state. But this is probably a better price paid than existing at a hundred as she exists now with constant low level violence. Peace is the better proposition even if peace itself irrevocably alters things.

Lena :

Roger,

Actually, what you have said is not entirely true. Whether the people involved in the Iraq war decision-making process were Zionists, I do not know. But Israel has had no part in the war.

Second, what you said about not including the Palestinians in prosperity is also not entirely true. You see, the Palestinians actually have a higher general level of prosperity than other Arabs across the Middle East. The same goes for education. Palestinians used to cross into Israel every day for work.

What changed was the intifada. Suddenly, thousands of people were crossing into Israel proper for work, but many were also crossing to blow up things and people in public places. It was only with the intifada - in which these things were happening in major cities nearly daily - that it became harder to cross into Israel and harder to find work.

On top of that, the Palestinians' own leadership has not helped the situation. The Palestinian Authority received billions in aid every year - including from the Israeli government - but do you know what much of it went to? Arafat's wife's house in Paris or her shopping sprees. Or the personal bank accounts of friends of those high up in the Palestinian Authority government.

Roger :

Alas - Israel is doomed. George W. Bush doomed it by invading Iraq at the request of the Zionists such as Feith and Wolfowitz. And it's a pity - because it could have been such a needed force for democratization and, yes, modernism in the area. But it never found a formula for including the Palestinians in the miracle of prosperity. Israel is surrounded by people who hate it for good reason- and such a state can never survive. It may be 4, 40 or 400 years, but sooner or later, it will be overrun. The war to come will be a civil war among the people of Palestine, of which the Zionists are a small minority. It will be a cold day in Gaza before the U.S. will again get itself involved in a civil war in the Middle East. Israelis still think they are invincible. So did Napoleon and the Nazis.

Lena :

1. Zionism is not about kicking people out of their homes or their land. Zionism is about returning to a land in which the Jewish people have thousands of years of roots and thousands of years of continuous presence. The Holocaust of the 1940s made that necessity especially prudent.

2. The military actions that Israel has carried out in Gaza and in Lebanon are hardly atrocities. You people make it sound as if we simply go in and do whatever we want apropos of nothing. Targeted strikes in Gaza are in response to rockets being thrown into our towns from over the border which hurt or kill our people and destroy houses, schools, and more. And Lebanon 2006? Remember what started the war? Hizbullah agents crossing the border, kidnapping our soldiers - which is illegal and a casus belli by any state's definition - and then lobbing hundreds of Katyusha rockets into our northern towns. And you make it sound as if we just went into Lebanon and attacked people for fun.

3. Now let's talk about the comparison between Israel and the Nazis. The IDF goes in, performs targeted strikes in response to clear provocations and then pulls out. And yes, sometimes civilians get hurt. But the IDF takes all precautions to make sure that this doesn't happen. You may not believe it, but it's entirely true.

Now, the Nazis built camps, *purposely and intentionally* rounded people up in most of Europe and then gassed them, or starved them to death, or burned them, or beat them, or shot them...to the point that a third of the world's Jewish population was eliminated. The Nazis had a clear doctrine, laid out in the Wannsee Protocol.

There is a massive difference between these two.

Vic van Meter :

You people honestly need to get a grip.

Israel is definitely going to survive for a very long time. No question. It has all the right allies, all the right weapons, and all the mindset to win any sort of war of attrition. So even if the cycle of violence continues to revolve, Israel shall live. That certainly does not mean it is the optimal solution, for sure. Hamas and Hezbollah have all sorts of weapons and manpower to thrash at the walls of Israel with. All the conflict does is kill more citizens at the expense of their governments.

Hamas even got itself elected because of its power position in the war, and Israeli politicians have next to no choice but to pronounce their belligerently defensive intentions. Obviously, the citizens have disconnected themselves from the reality that their support for these factions and glorifying their positions has done nothing but increased the violent swings of the cycle of indignant vengeance. And they are the ones who pay the penalty for their lack of intelligence. As long as the two countries' governments have an interest in fighting each other, there will be no safety for anyone.

But as far as survival goes? Yes, Israel will not be demolished in the next forty years. Say what you would like about being surrounded by enemies, those enemies have no interest in going to war with a nation which is basically using America's conventional weapons. The terrorists, due to the extremely paranoid Israeli security situation, have little chance to inflict the sort of heavy damage that would do more than simply ask for the Israelis to bomb them. Will it be peaceful in 40 years? I don't know. I honestly doubt most peoples' abilities to understand their situation objectively. But the possibility is always there.

The safe bet, though, would be on Israel making its centennial at the very least.

William :

Israelis have developed a culture best defined as amoral. The primary concern inherent in their culture is the short term existence of the State of Israel. They have no problem committing atrocities against Palestinian civilians and people of neighboring countries (witness the bombing of Lebanese civilians last year). But their policies are short sighted because they have developed only enemies in the region and rely solely on the economic and military might of the United States. If sentiment for the protection of Israel should drop or if the United States was not longer able to offer its support, Israel would shortly thereafter cease to exist. So, I believe that Israel will exist at 100 years; however, its short-sighted policies which build hatred for it amongst its neighbors will eventually - possibly in a century or so, result in its eventual and inevitable destruction.

William :

Israelis have developed a culture best defined as amoral. The primary concern inherent in their culture is the short term existence of the State of Israel. They have no problem committing atrocities against Palestinian civilians and people of neighboring countries (witness the bombing of Lebanese civilians last year). But their policies are short sighted because they have developed only enemies in the region and rely solely on the economic and military might of the United States. If sentiment for the protection of Israel should drop or if the United States was not longer able to offer its support, Israel would shortly thereafter cease to exist. So, I believe that Israel will exist at 100 years; however, its short-sighted policies which build hatred for it amongst its neighbors will eventually - possibly in a century or so, result in its eventual and inevitable destruction.

Dan Figman :

The problem is extremely complex. On the one hand, an Israelite -whether born in the U.S., Israel, Australia, Somalia or Bolivia- will always prioritize its own people. In that sense, U.S. Israelites' (Lieberman & Co.) priorities are absolutely predictable. On the other hand, the problem lies in that should Israel be attacked by its neighbors, most of them would end up migrating to the U.S., and you --good American-- is that what you want?

Lu Franklin :

To AG:
Yes, I believe that the Current Israelites are evil in their thefts of land and abuse of Palestinians, and other Arabs.
Yes, I also believe that they will survive because they have the USA (example, Joe Lieberman, and ignorant Far-Right Christians), they are extremely clever at pretending to compromise, and they have the atomic bomb.
My hope is that like the third Reich they will change or fall, but I doubt that that will happen.

Dan Figman :

Israel's foundation is based on the principle of Blood, Race, and Soil. The same principle invoked by the Nazis to build what they called their 1,000 year-Empire. By the way, the word Nasi means "prince," and refers to the president or head of a Sanhedrin. Interesting pun.

To Dan W :

Israel kicks out people from homes that they've owned for 100s of years to settle their own Jews. That is nothing short of total barbarianism and immorality. Human worth is not measured by whether they are from the "7th century illiterates" or 21st century F16s. It is measured by how DECENT we treat each other. You obviously don't understand this basic concept.

Hank :

Lena-- You make your home in the middle of millions of people that hate you and want you dead, based on some ancient, man written book, that says that god promised you that land. You forcfully took it and displaced the palastinians that also occupied that land, that was called Palastine, as I recall. As for the intelligence services you provide, would that be the military secrets that Pollard and other israeli spies have stolen from us, your supposed ally. In israel, do we have a staunch ally that fights shoulder to shoulder with us on the battlefield, or do we have access to your vast natural resources, or receive financial aid from you. The answer, as you well know is NO. As far as the scant technology we have gotten from you, do you think that compensates us for the billions and billions of dollars in aid and millitary equipment you have gotten from us, not counting the secrets you have stolen. How does the state of israel help the world? You do to the palastinians what you claim the germans did to your people and you want us to feel sorry for you, because they fight back that only way they can. You pretend to talk peace, while you continue to build in occupied territories, so as Itsak Shimir said, there will be too many there to move by the time some accord is reached. Until israel becomes a shining example of peace and comprimise, and actually contributes something positive to the human experience, you can expect more and more people like me to see israel for what it is, and not buy your BS.

Dvhawk :

As long as lobbyist continue to hand off suitcases of cash to our Congressman, Israel will exist with its Big Brother the Bald eagle. Why don't they just get it over and declare Israel the 51st state.

Hank :

Lena-- You make your home in the middle of millions of people that hate you and want you dead, based on some ancient, man written book, that says that god promised you that land. You forcfully took it and displaced the palastinians that also occupied that land, that was called Palastine, as I recall. As for the intelligence services you provide, would that be the military secrets that Pollard and other israeli spies have stolen from us, your supposed ally. In israel, do we have a staunch ally that fights shoulder to shoulder with us on the battlefield, or do we have access to your vast natural resources, or receive financial aid from you. The answer, as you well know is NO. As far as the scant technology we have gotten from you, do you think that compensates us for the billions and billions of dollars in aid and millitary equipment you have gotten from us, not counting the secrets you have stolen. How does the state of israel help the world? You do to the palastinians what you claim the germans did to your people and you want us to feel sorry for you, because they fight back that only way they can. You pretend to talk peace, while you continue to build in occupied territories, so as Itsak Shimir said, there will be too many there to move by the time some accord is reached. Until israel becomes a shining example of peace and comprimise, and actually contributes something positive to the human experience, you can expect more and more people like me to see israel for what it is, and not buy your BS.

PS :

Certainly Israel survive, but it will be change. And it change into multiculturelly country. That means not only jewish state, but also equal rights to other people.

Lena, Tel Aviv :

This forum is jilted from the beginning. Your question is not whether Israel will survive to 100, but whether Israel in fact even possesses the right to exist. That is what is really being implied here.

But it shouldn't be. Israel is the only homeland in the world to the Jewish people, one in which its roots extend back thousands and thousands of years. Hence, its creation in 1948 is not a wrong, as you put it "Saddened" - it was in fact not some kind of historical anomaly, but rather a gradual process that, believe it or not, took place over decades of internal state-building.

I'm willing to bet that most of you know nothing about us nor have you ever been here. Well, should you ever decide to do some research, you will find that Israelis are not at all an angry and hateful people, as you suggest, Hank. Since when is self-defense a hateful activity to engage in? Would any other sovereign nation put up with what we put up with daily? Would the United States, if rockets were raining on it from Canada? Of course not. Don't be silly.

Another note for you, Hank - the United States gets nothing from Israel? Know what you would not have without us? Voicemail. Instant messages. MRI technology. Certain military equipment. The list is in fact longer, but I don't have time or space to include all of it. And what about political solidarity? What about intelligence services? Think that those aren't useful, especially in this day and age? Think again. I won't even deal with the "Israel does nothing good for its own people" bit because it isn't worth it.

What you would find, if you came here, is a vibrant, thriving, productive nation wrestling with difficult questions. But what I have no doubt of is Israel is tough and durable and resilient and that we will not only survive but flourish.

Hank :

One can only hope not. Israel has been a stone in the shoe of the world since it forced itself into being. It is the irritant that continues to force it's anger and hatred on the world, and is the one greatest impediment to peace. The US is not hated for it's freedoms, it is hated for it's unfathomable alliance with Israel. The US gets nothing from it's alliance with Israel except billions of dollars poorer, and hated by millions of people, that otherwise, at worst would pay us no attention at all. When looked at objectivly, Israel does nothing good for anyone, even it's own people.

Hilson M.Breckenfeld Filho :

i hope what yes survivor,but is necessary a new form about aprohouch with another people who living in neighboor,the way with pass the last 60 years are probably beging a large war betwem arabian,lebon and israeli,i wonder honestilly in conversation and building a chain the brotherood.

Hilson M.Breckenfeld Filho :

i hope what yes survivor,but is necessary a new form about aprohouch with another people who living in neighboor,the way with pass the last 60 years are probably beging a large war betwem arabian,lebon and israeli,i wonder honestilly in conversation and building a chain the brotherood.

Dwight :

Should Israel go under, mushroom clouds will spout from the major cities in the mideast. no one will be spared and the remaining nomads will be hunted down and exterminated.

David D :

Israel will survive and only survives by the use of the kind of military, ethnic and cultural oppression Israel itself was a reaction to.

bluecollarbytes :

What, are we prophets? Ok then, yes Israel will survive 100 years and beyond. Israel is willing to defend itself in the ultimate fashion if needed. But it's proven it can play the games demanded by its "allies", coddling its enemies when it can afford to. Frankly I say to heck with 'outraged Islamists'. There seems to be no end to their taking offense and blaming everyone else for problems they themselves create and nurture. Unless they're willing to accept Israel as a sovereign entity and cease the indoctrination of hate of their offspring they and Israel will continue to be locked in the fight. Israel is just a stepping stone on the Islamist's path to us.

Eric B :

What an offensive question, but I expect little more from this rag (WaPo) that has become the mouthpiece of choice for terrorist propaganda and an open forum for vile Jew-hatred. David, your Arabist colors are showing, and it does not become you.

DocChuck :

I certainly hope not. There will never be peace in that part of the world as long as the Israeli thugs are being fed American money (my extorted tax dollars).

Tan Lee :

Dan understand what Islamic radical Arabs are. Liberals see things that not there and think good talk will make life sweet.
NOT SO.
Look at Burma. Talk produce NOTHING unless threat of retaliation go with it.
I never thought this way but he right, they are Barbarian out to destroy the world.

Muneer Baloch :

Well, The answer is very easy,This State of Israel is going to be vanished sooner than its 100 Birthday Inshallah ( By God's willing )....

Muneer Baloch :

Well, The answer is very easy,This State of Israel is going to be vanished sooner than its 100 Birthday Inshallah ( By God's willing )....

Saddened :

No. It was a noble experiment that has tragically proven that two wrongs can't make one right.

Robert :

I think not. Not as a Jewish state.

As the population parities change, whether while occupying the West Bank and Gaza or not, the world would expect democratic representation and governance. Israel could start executing on the Herzelya Center report, and begin 'transferring' Palestinians... but who will take them? and how loud would the outcry of Jew and Gentile?

Israel is at a cross road now. It is an existential issue Herzl and Ben Gurion never thought of... although according to Ben Morris and Ilan Pappe and so many historians 'transfer' was on the minds of Ben Gurion's associated, particularly Begin and Sharon in 1947-1948 in several instances like Tantura and Deir Yaseen!

Enlightened Israelis will give this issue serious considerations. I hope they will not indulge in the mysticism of some of the comments above for the sake of Israel and the Arabs.


Jeff Crocket :

There is a geographic place in the middle east called Palestine. The population is a mix of Semite
Jews and Semite Muslims(Arabs). 60 years ago the Jews created a political entity - a nation called Israel in the land of Palestine. The Jews and Muslims lived among each other for thousands of years. They are still living together on this land within this recent political entity. As long as Israel has international support for it's right to exist it will be a political entity for thousands more years.

gary :

everyone else in history is gone as nations except israel. the God of creation will destroy who comes between Him and His chosen.

Dan W :

Wish hope and pray in one hand and spit in the other. See which one fills up first.
You who deny the truth seal the fate of Israel and usher in another Holocaust.
All you have is political correctness and a bed to try to hide under.
Thankfully there are a preponderance of us who see the world as it truly is and are prepared to take action.
However if you believe so very strongly in your nonsense contact the US Military and offer to house any one of the Islamic terrorists held in Guantanimo in your house.
Too tough, then simply fly to Saudi Arabia with a Bible.
You need to get you head out of your orifice and breathe fresh air.

an non :

Where does Dan get his facts? denial.com?

Anonymous :

Where does Dan get his facts? denial.com?

Diogenes :

Let's hope not. Selah.

Diogenes :

Let's hope not. Selah.

Dan W :

Israel will not survive if it keeps fighting a politically correct war.
Radical Arab Islamic Barbarians murder Israeli's and the world yawns.
Israel kills a terrorist and the world goes ballistic screaming "Proportional Response".
What will they scream when Israel is nuked.
Israel is dealing with 7th Century illiterate Islamic Barbarians. Arabs only understand power and these Islamic barbarians need to be killed en masse.
When will we say that OURS is the superior culture and the Islamic culture of death is spawn of Satan?
It is time to wage total war against these bastards before they have a complete stranglehold on the energy supply of the world and plunge us back into the dark ages.

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