Readers’ Responses to Our Question (39)

Mike B.

How do you explain human dignity and freedom in India, with the following news :

(CNN) -- A man, incensed that a 6-year-old girl chose to walk through a path reserved for upper caste villagers, pushed her into burning embers, police in north India said Wednesday. She was seriously burned.

Dalits, or "untouchables," are victims of discrimination in India despite laws aimed at eliminating prejudice.

The girl is a Dalit, or an "untouchable," according to India's traditional caste system.

India's constitution outlaws caste-based discrimination, and barriers have broken down in large cities. Prejudice, however, persists in some rural areas of the country.

The girl was walking with her mother down a path in the city of Mathura when she was accosted by a man in his late teens, said police superintendent R.K. Chaturvedi.

"He scolded them both and pushed her," Chaturvedi said. The girl fell about 3 to 4 feet into pile of burning embers by the side of the road.

The girl remained in critical condition Wednesday.

The man confessed to the crime and was charged with attempted murder, Chaturvedi said.

The assault took place in India's Uttar Pradesh state, about 150 km (93 miles) south of Delhi. The state is governed by Mayawati, a woman who goes by one name and is India's most powerful Dalit politician.

Her Bahujan Samaj Party seeks to get more political representation for Dalits, who are considered so low in the social order that they don't even rank among the four classes that make up the caste system.

Hindus believe there are five main groups of people, four of which sprang from the body of the first man.

The Brahmin class comes from the mouth. They are the priests and holy men, the most elevated of the castes.

Next is the Ksatriyas, the kings, warriors and soldiers created from the arms.

The Vaisyas come from the thighs. They are the merchants and traders of society.

And the Sudras, or laborers, come from the feet.

The last group is the Dalits, or the "untouchables." They're considered too impure to have come from the primordial being. Untouchables are often forced to work in menial jobs. They drink from separate wells. They use different entry ways, coming and going from buildings.

They number about 250 million in India, about 25 percent of the population, according to the Colorado, U.S.-based Dalit Freedom Network.

"Dalits are seen to pollute higher caste people if they come in touch with them, hence the 'untouchables,'" the group says on its Web site. "If a higher caste Hindu is touched by, or even had a Dalit's shadow fall across them, they consider themselves to be polluted and have to go through a rigorous series of rituals to be cleansed."

Recent weeks has seen a rise in violence against Dalits

MikeB:

I am neither ignorant of my country's history nor am purposefully attempting to mislead. In fact whatever you have mentioned about India's "non-existence" prior to 15th August 1947 - India's Independence Day from Britishers - is absolutely rubbish. You do not even understand what India is or ever was. India - Bharat or Hindustan - has been in existence - as a highly developed nation in all aspects - since almost 7000 years when most of the humanity in rest parts of the world was still in caves. Please read India's history properly.

Now coming back to all those exaggerated and ignorant accusations about mistreatments of muslims in Kashmir in India: the unfortunate part is that India could not save its minority Hindu population from terrorism-inflicted exodus from Kashmir inspite of being a secular and sovereign and yet Hindu-dominant country. (India's base is built on Hindu philosophy and it will remain so forever.)

It is actually a shame for India that it bowed down infront of muslim fundamentalists - Pakistani intruders - in that otherwise immensely beautiful state and an integral part of the mainland India.

India continues to and will continue to - as its duty - spend billions of tax payers money on saving the muslim dominated population in Kashmir who in collusion with terrorists had earlier driven the Hindu minority population out and had occupied their land, homes etc.

And, inorder to be able to hold any responsible position in any job/establishment/etc., one needs to be adequately educated and qualified. If muslims were in minority in any job etc inspite of being in majority in terms of number in Kashmir, it was primarily because of their attitude towards not getting 'proper' - professional - education due to their fundamentalist approach towards everything in life.

This is 'the fact' which they - and all their sympathisers - have to accept if they want to come into the mainstream of any society in the world. With a isolationist attitude they can never become inclusive in progress and prosperity.

Such problems are witnessed not only in India but in the entire world as well - the US included - which is suffering from 'islamic fundamentalism' i.e. terrorism.

Kashmiri muslims are Indians and therefore they get everything from India but unfortunately majority of their hearts beat for Pakistan. This is treachery and a highly condemnable character. In fact, Kashmiri muslims in the Indian part of the territory are really fortunate and they too know it very well. And for the rest of the world to know this 'fact', they just have to take a glance at their muslim brothers and sisters in the Pakistan-occupied Kashmir or even in the mainland Pakistan.

India can never be compared with Pakistan or any other part of the world where there is relatively very minimal human dignity and freedom.

So, who are the victims here: Kashmiri Muslims or Kashmiri Hindus? ... Please get your facts right.
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Anyway, we were here to discuss 'if Tibet was a lost cause'. Instead we got lost in Kashmir in India. So, let's concentrate on the core issue: China and Tibet.

I spent a few years in Taiwan, so the Tibet issue holds particular resonance with me. When I talked to one of my students about the reason for China holding onto Taiwan, she responded, "because of Mongolia." In her mind, China's territorialism with regard to Taiwan is similar to America's foreign policy fears during the Cold War of the domino effect. In China's way of thinking, if it loses one piece (i.e. Taiwan, Tibet) it will lose all. Tibetan independence will lead to Taiwan independence will lead to Inner Mongolia's independence and so on until China shrinks to a sliver along the Pacific coast.
Can Tibet gain its independence? Sure. But it must wait as Ireland waited, as the United States waited for it's oppressor to be weakened by war or economic devastation. The important thing for Tibetans is to hold onto their culture as much as possible and keep the fires of independence alive in their children so they will be ready when the time is right.

Anju Chandel, New Delhi, India - You are either ignorant of your country's history or are purposefully attempting to mislead. To begin with, it was India that had no prior existance. Before the British rule, India was nothing more than a series of petty fiefdoms, ruled by local Maharajas. Pakistan, on the other other hand, had a central government and uniform culture going back more than 2000 years.

Kashmir was ruled under a succession of Muslim rulers from 1346 until it was conquered by Afghan armies in 1752 and was ruled by them until it was, in turn, conquered by the British in the late 1800's. The British installed the Singh's, who promised pro-British policies in exchange for 1,000,000 British pounds. The last Singh, was Maharaja Hari Singh Bahadur (1925 - 1949), a devout Indian nationalist and Hindhu ruler.

At the end of British rule, when Pakistan and India were partitioned, there were several disputed territories, including Kashmir. There was supposed to be an election by the people of Kashmir to determine whether they would join with India or with Pakistan. There was no doubt whatsoever that the 98% Muslim majority of Kashmir would elect to join Pakistan. With the machinations of India, Singh, called off the plebicite and invited Indian troops to invade Kashmir. Tens of thousands of Kashmiri people were murdered in the subsequent uprising. India forceably resettled millions of Kashmir people and displaced them with Hindhu settlers from India, literally taking their homes and land without an compensation, oft times murdering entire families. After this, right up until the end of the 20th Century, Muslim Kashmir children could not attend public schools, Muslims could not hold any government jobs, native Kashmiri people were even denied basic medical and social services. There are still hundreds of murders, discrimination that makes anything in U.S. history (even South African history), look downright tame. It was and IS one of the worst acts of barbarism in history. Indian OCCUPATION of Kashmir is on par with Nazi conquest of the Ukraine or China's occupation of Tibet.

We are living in a period of change. And I suppose I can introduce a completely different question, that is, does Tibetan independence really matter and, if so, for how long?

Think about it. The world is shrinking at an incredible rate with the Internet spreading its fiber-optic fingers around the world. Suddenly, people are able to talk to each other from halfway around the world in a matter of seconds and can share ideas through forums such as this one. Now we hardly speak of nations in terms of individual nations, but in conglomerates of nations. The West. The Middle East. Boundaries are beginning to blur and someone eventually has to ask the question about when distinct nations will no longer be relevant.

Obviously, it could take some time. Right now, if you feel your ethnic minority is oppressed, your penultimate option is to create your own nation. On the Tibet issue, Tibet can hardly garner much in the way of funds or economy without China. It would not do the people much economic or political good. The only reason that Tibetans want to be free of Chinese rule is, of course, that China is dictating to them a way of life they would prefer not to follow. Most people, if their religion is made illegal, would likely call for similar independence. Such is the way of the modern world.

But the world's rapid communication is making nations less and less relevant in the modern age. If you don't want your industry being done by highly skilled and highly paid American factory workers, then you can move it to Thailand and challenge your consumers to know the difference. If your headquarters pays too much in taxes in London, you can move it to Austin in a heartbeat. If you need more computer programmers in Tel Aviv, you can import them from all over the world and the one and only complication in all of this is national government.

I'm by no means an anarchist and I do believe in government. But to bring this all to the issue of Tibet, what does it honestly matter if Tibet becomes independent? Whether you support it or fight against it, Tibetan independence is not an issue that would specifically destroy China (outside perhaps serving as an example of how to escape Chinese rule). In fact, I suppose that if China were more free for all of its citizens then Tibet would probably not be railing so desperately for independence. But even if they get their hard-fought country, it will hardly do them any good on their own. They would only move into another conglomerate of nations.

No country will outlive the day that people finally realize that our imaginary boundaries are meaningless. That day is most likely still very far off, since no government is going to accept that its sovereignty is an issue only in its own interest. So whether you believe Tibet should be independent or not, what does it honestly matter? Someday, China's people will eventually turn their authoritarian regime on its head or gradually fade it away. In that case, Tibetans would have their freedom again. If they break away now, they are only prematurely snapping the oppressive bonds that hold them in check and joining a league of otherwise penniless nations relying on political convenience for help.

Either way, it hardly matters. Independence is a word very few people take seriously anymore.

To THMAK:

There are no Pakistanis living in India seeking Independence.

And from what, for what?

Please remember: Pakistan was annexed from India and it was never the other way round. So there is no question of Pakistanis seeking any more territory from India than what they got as gift from the Britishers.

If you meant Kashmir, then same above mentioned logic applies here too. Kashmir was always a part of India and will remain so.

Now, coming back to Tibet. In all practicality, Tibet will always be a part of China. But what is required to be done is that the Chinese government grant's it the autonomy - and even all Tibetans have to accept it as a hard fact. Another very crucial aspect is keeping the cultural integrity of Tibet intact. China has to stop its agenda of destroying the core of Tibet - its soft power. And then there would be peace for all.

Sounds Utopian???

Actually, resolution of most of the world's conflicts can be achieved but if only politics is kept out of them.

Of course it's a lost cause! Wall Street and corporate America, and whether it's a "multinational or not, it still have the "values of corporate America, will gladly sacrifice Tibet for profits. Corporations that sell China our night vision technology, cruise missile guidance systems, our latest and most secret technologies, who don't give a rats behind about this country or our people, aren't going to bat an eye about sacrificing the lives and aspirations of some distant people. China OWNS this country. China has close to 1.5 trillion dollars in U.S. currency reserves and god-only-knows how much money debt. If China ever gets unhappy with our government, we have handed them the capacity to flat out destroy us. What keeps me up at night is the fact that we are doing the same thing with India. Someday, likely sooner rather than later, China and India aren't going to get along and we will be faced with the choice of drinking one of two poisons, either of which will kill as surely as an military defeat. So, forget Tibet, forget human rights, forget the American dream. What you need to be concerned with is if your kids and you will starve this Fall or next winter, you need to be concerned with choosing between food or gas or your house payment or the prescription drugs you or a member of your family needs to stay alive. You see, while you were quietly going about your business, your political representatives and corporations blathering on and on about "free trade" took your country and ran it off a cliff.

To all those who says China have human right problems in Tibet and invade Tibet, please read UN reports with regard to what China has been doing in Tibet. Youi all claim that the Chinese read only Government news. They all know that. The problem is you all purposely read only and trust anti-China axis of evil media reports without reserve. That is the big difference

To Anju Chandel: You mean all those Pakistanis living in India can also declare independence and has freedom inside India too.

The Dalai Lama being the spiritual head and the most revered Tibetan the world over should sustain his quest for freedom - or autonomy - from the Chinese occupation with continued struggle - peacefully, of course. And, not wait for only an important event like Beijing Olympics to happen.

Also, all his so-called followers and supporters - many of them high-profile - around the globe should sincerely and seriously propagate his - and Tibetans' - cause and help him realise his 'a Free Tibet' - or an autonomous Tibet - dream.

This includes all those democratic countries as well - India included. (India's current conducts to bend over backwards to please the Chinese establishment is really disgusting and way below the dignity of a sovereign and powerful nation. Hope the Indian politicians and bureaucrats are listening...)

Wonder why nations cannot follow a simple mantra of life: Live and Let Live! (Now, I hope the Chinese politicians and bureaucrats are listening ...)

We all the time regard Tibetans as our brothers and sisters. Never had we killed Tibetans as you said. I dislike Communist Party. But I love my country. Many many western people really do not understand Tibet history and present. They just rely on distorted information from their media. In fact, in the world, we only hate one nation, we want to kill them ten million, this nation is JAPAN, a nation like a wolf. Dalai Lama is old, anyway, he is old, we hope he could come back to his homeland, not residing in India. He is a tool used by western powers. Tell you a secret of many many Chinese. We, deep deep in our hearts, do not believe western powers. The reason is very simple, Great Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Russia, and the Unitied States had robbed us of a lot in the past. Anyway, Russia helped us from 1949-1958, we can forgive it. So, western powers shouted there: free Tibet! In their deep heart, who really want to free Tibet? NO. We dislike Communist Party. But in China, only Communist Party can fight against western powers. You called us nationalists? Shame on you robbers! We love Tibetans. 90% Tibetans also view us their brothers and sisters. Only those in exile do not view us so.

There is a zero possibility that Tibet will ever get independence from China - it's never done it in its history since forming a "monarchy state" back 1000 years ago.

Those overseas Tibetans are basically offsprings of their old generation of exiled who wanted to go back to take over the regime and become kings of that used to be backward bloody crude society with lots of slaves. Time has changed.

Tibet's future, lies in its getting further integrated with China. This will come in next 10-15 years for sure.

Take a look at:

www.dalai-liar.com

Withheld: Thanks for reading my post. ONE. The Olympic started well before the "commercial" aspect comes in and the 'commercial' part of the Olympic is well under control and is not the major part of the Olympic. The Olympic was started celebrating in ancient Greece, the craddle of Western culture, and has been celebrated in great fanfare up to now in every major Western countries without major interruption. Therefore it can be considered one of the pillar of Western tradition. Individual right does not exits before WWII. There is no individaul right in the colonialism era and before USA civil war, not even before the civil right march era. At the moment there is no commonly agreed upon of what is individual right. Therefore using the undefined and not broadly accepted individaul right to criticize event happened before the time is irrelevent and absurd. More, prejudicial and biased accuse of individual right violation of one country and not the other is unacceptable. TWO. Democracy means the interest of the majority comes first. That is how the US president is voted and that is how the laws in the US Senate and Congress is passed. The minority right is respected but is not the overiding right. I hope you understand. THREE. "Tibetan occupants of Tibet don't have the right to their live and govern their own land and people" is utterly absurd. If you own a home, you do not have right to govern your own house and land. The government rule overides your right by taxing, search warrant, and even move you away if a highway is to be built through your land. The American Indians don't have right to live and govern their own land, so are the Hawaiians and the Alaskians natives. I hope you understand.

It is a lost cause because Dalai is in no position to talk to China. This kind of talk has been on going for the past decades. He has lost his standing among the majority of Tibetans in Tibet by his vicious behavior. His anti-China axis of evil sponsors have their own agenda and only use Dalai as a bargaining pawn to obatin some benefit of their own from China. So China does the same and uses Dalai as a bargaining pawn to obtain some beneift in return. Too bad that Dalai enjoys to play such a demeaning role.

I don't understand how a culture wholly distinct and continuous, stable compared even to the Chinese, can be for a minute justified to be subjugated by an armed invader. Assimilation into an industrial outpost is not a good thing either, and it is a cultural loss to all of mankind. Truth is powerful and enduring, and Tibet as a nation will prevail. It is just too bad China must be so dishonest about their theft.

Tibet won't be a lost cause, neither will California, or Texas or Ireland or Palestine or Siberia or Eritrea or Kosevo or any other places in the world who want to be independent. Througout history, groups and tribes of people fought to death for territories and resources. Anybody who think it is different now or will be in the future is just incredibly naive or hypocritical. Don't agree? look at Iraq. Someday the US will surely break up into many small countries as all powerful empires did in the past. So will China as it did many times in its history. Although unlike Rome or Persia, China had been incredibly resillient throughout its history, uniting back into one large empire over and over again.

Human beings get into armed conflicts with each other in the name of all kinds of lame excuses, include liberty (remember how America "liberated" Iraq?), self-determination and religion. In the end, it's all about wealth, power and women.

When Dalai Lama and Panchan Lama signed the 7 point agreement in 1951, they have forever given up the possibility of Tibet separation from China. Well, unless China becomes weak again in the future (weaker than now).

It is like when Texas agreed to join the United States, she won't leave the United States unless all members of the United States agree.

It is also like in the Kingdom of Hawaii case, although some people are vocal about rebuild and become independent, no country would want to recognize Hawaii as a country for apparent reasons.

For the past 700 years, Tibet had never been an independent country, not even de facto independent. Under British invasion, Tibet declared independence in 1910(?) but no country, not even United States, recognize that. When the UK army ceded they intentionally produced many problems for the ex-colonies including India, so that these ex-colonies will fight with each other and weaken themselves. This, unfortunately, worked well in Tibet's case.

Tibet isn't a cause.

Twenty years ago, everyone thought that freedom for Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia was a lost cause. Look at them today.

Tibet will never be a lost cause. Au contraire, it is becoming even more of a Found Cause as new generations of Tibetans are born into exile and want to claim their own culture again, and as more westerners become serious students of Tibetan Buddhism.

The Dalai Lama has said, about eight zillion times, the he is not asking for Tibet to be totally independent. He wants religious and cultural traditions of Tibet to be allowed and respected. His stance is considered a great compromise by many activists, but some of us believe he may be the last chance for a peaceful resolution - the next generation is angrier, more militant.

The Dalai Lama has also said, about eight zillion times, that he knows Tibet needs to be modernized in many ways and would support such efforts. But repression is not modernization.

No group can take years of violent oppression and disrespect without reacting with escalating bitterness. Yes, govenernments around the world have repressed others for all of history,but that does not make the Tibet cause any less meaningful.

I feel sorry that so many Chinese and Chinese-Americans are taking the protests personally. People are people wherever you go. It is governments that deceive, lie and cause problems.

Tibetan is only asking for the same human rights we all want.

Camis

The world is too small to allow the continued existence of barbarous states such as the former Tibet.

Before the chinese invasion, Tibet was mired in a preenlightment state of nature. The injection of chinese culture has in 50 years advanced Tibet by 500 years. Rather than excoriating china, the world should thank it. For the first time since japan's clumsy attempt in the 1940's, an asian power has taken on serious international obligations. What was once only the White Man's Burden, has become the Yellow Man's as well.

With Europe's collapse into sordid decadence, the United States could no longer be expected to maintain the Burden alone. While the entry of China into the league of responsible world powers is hardly without its challenges, the management of China's reemergence into the world has been brilliantly orchestrated by the USA since the days of Nixon.

The continued march of civilization demanded the anhilation of Tibet, as it did of Iraq. both China and Anmerica are owed a debt of gratitude by all who value humanity.

Blah,blah,blah. The only way Tibet will become independent again is by finding oil there and the U.S. starts WW3 to get it. Review the tapes of the "50s" invasion by the Chinese. Does this look like a country that gives a hoot about the Dalai Lama or the Tibetan religion? I say give the Tibetans Texas, even though it is too hot for them. All else is fantasy.

China embarked in the 50's on a long and patient journey to commit cultural genocide on the Tibetan Chinese.

Through the military, government, commerce and media they have entirely controlled Tibet.

Ever patiently, this process will take the Chinese government 50 - 100 years to accomplish. The current turmoil an inevitable bump in the road. At that, the bump will be forgotten in a year or two and the patient purge will continue.

Athletes should not taint their reputations by attending the Beijing 2008 Olympics.

Economic considerations always trump democracy and freedom for the pompous Western leaders regardless of how much they trumpet democracy and freedom. It was the case when UK negotiated a separate deal with Tibetan government while assuring China that UK always considered Tibet a part of China in 1913. It is the case when UK sends a delegation of big diplomats to Beijing today. Having said that, cause of independence can only be sustained by Tibetans. If Tibetans truly want to keep their culture alive and flourishing, they are the ones who have to earn it with their blood against a mighty Communist China. While Buddhism abhors violence, only way for Tibetans to gain independence is through violence against a ruthless ruler, especially when that ruler in its claim over Tibet is supported by the whole world including so-called champions of freedom. Will Tibetans rise to the challenge? If they don’t, their culture and independent identity is destined to the dust bin of history, just like many before theirs.

Economic considerations always trump democracy and freedom for the pompous Western leaders regardless of how much they trumpet democracy and freedom. It was the case when UK negotiated a separate deal with Tibetan government while assuring China that UK always considered Tibet a part of China in 1913. It is the case when UK sends a delegation of big diplomats to Beijing today. Having said that, cause of independence can only be sustained by Tibetans. If Tibetans truly want to keep their culture alive and flourishing, they are the ones who have to earn it with their blood against a mighty Communist China. While Buddhism abhors violence, only way for Tibetans to gain independence is through violence against a ruthless ruler, especially when that ruler in its claim over Tibet is supported by the whole world including so-called champions of freedom. Will Tibetans rise to the challenge? If they don’t, their culture and independent identity is destined to the dust bin of history, just like many before theirs.

Tibet is simply a media sponsored issue. The people are bored with the subject of Iran Iraq Darfur and so they need something fresh to sell.

I do not remember any forceful voice or movement originating from Tibet against chinese government. In fact the latest investment opportunities in China are more focused on its southern provinces.

China is slowly transforming itself to more liberal lifestyle and bringing a change in its social structure. We belong to a generation who witnessed the cultural revolution in china and this is a good opportunity that we are also seeing china moving to another revolution bringing a positive change in the quality of life of chinese people.

Let the people of China decide its pace of change. I sincerely believe that any outside tinkering will only make the things worst.

Organizing Olympics is a great event for Chinese nation. It will bring people around the world and will create an opportunity where chinese philosphy of governace will face a litmus test by the international observers and media

Let us now concentrate on the pride and joy of billion chinese who are proud organizers of the olympics .Let the Olympics to be a success story. The success is such a truth in itself that I am sure every tibetian will also feel proud to be part of the spirit of the olympics.

Nivedita :

First of all, you have to be reponsible for what you said if you say we are so-called"intellectual theives".I dont know where u are from,but if you are a student studying abroad and go back to your own country, can I say you are a damn thief as well?

To all those who never do any researches on Tibet history and China history:
If you dont know China's policy about the minority group,please go and check that after you have been to China and Tibet.Have a look if they are in a condition of unable to protect their own belief and religion--which is, by the way,a religion most of Chinese are believing in.

I dont know much about how blackmen struggled to get the equal right to live in U.S.,but I do know that, in China, we have never struggled for that and we dont have racists in the country. When a citizen from Tibet comes to Beijing or shanghai or shenzhen, he is equal to everyone in the city and nobody calls him a pig,unlike that in U.S--a lot of people call Muslins animals.I gotta say to respect others is to respect yourselves.We respect people living in Tibet as our own people long from the past for about 900 years.

To magellan1:

You dont have to fear the massacre. Let's get reasonable about the whole event.If some people are destroying your city, what will you do?what the police is gonna do?surrender to them and make them rob the city again?Or we could agree to arrest them as how the US government arrested some terrists. one more thing, now China is occupying Tibet(in order to follow your thoughts although I can not agree this term could be used here-occupytion)， so is it possible the government does not protect the properties and people living there.I dont know where you get the information that China killed 1 million tibetians.Please give me the link so I could check it myself.

At last,hope those who have some prejudices over China can judge depending on the real informaiton not just the distorted news produced by some medias.Above all, they are doing business for the purpose of making profits.

This ugly Tibet episode is clearly a total loss for the United States. The Americans had badly underestimated the Chinese people this time. To try to break up a country or stir up internal chaos is an evil act, no matter if it is a small country like Serbia or a large country like China. Such agression is no different than the blatan invasion of Iraq with no justification. It is part of a troubling pattern of behaviors by the US since George W. Bush took office. Now, the US has finally succeeded in uniting virtuall every single Chinese in pursuit of theit national interests, this is probably a bigger failure than Iraq.

The only good that can come out of Tibet right now is for them to humiliate and bitch slap the Chinese (but not too much). Would I like to see them become independent, sure. As a people, they certainly don't deserve to be under the thumb of the mobsters of Beijing.

Even so, I fear that the Chinese would massacre the citizenry of Tibet, just as they murder dissenting townsfolk among their own people. It's clear even a people with a long history under their belt have much to learn.

Happily, the Tibetans are in a better position than the Byzantines contemplating the hordes of Turks outside the walls of Constaninople. Constantine XI refused the offer of a small portion of Greece, Mistra, as the refuge for the remaining Byzantines and the Turks went into the city and conquored it. Poof goes the Empire.

But all is not lost for the Tibetians.

Olympics aside, Tibetan independence is a lost cause. The Chinese are busily integrating it into their country, the new railway being the latest example, the country is being flooded with Han Chinese, the monasteries are empty, and most of all -- no country is or has been willing to fight China for Tibet's independence.

If you thought Vietnam and Iraq were/are quagmires, Tibet would be the worst. Imagine the length of the supply chains, the few hundred thousand troops against a million Chinese troops and you begin to see the depth of a military solution to the problem.

While the country is for all practical purposes Chinese, the culture need not be lost - unless of course, the culture was dependent on Tibet being run by Tibetans - There are several Tibetan communities in India and elsewhere. Within the limits, a new Dali Lama and other high ranking Lamas can be chosen by free Tibetans, monasteries can be set up, and the culture will continue, in a smaller form, but it will continue.

Ting,

One, The Olympics are not a "pillar of western tradition" they are a commercial sporting event, thats all they are. Western traditions are diverse but its agreed that in their modern form they are very much about the rights of the individual, and the rights of minorities to live side by side with the majority.

Two, Numbers, just like Might, don't make Right. Just because the Chinese people outnumber the Tibetan people 1 billion plus to 6 million doesn't mean the Tibetan people shouldn't have rights.
This is the same inside Tibet as well as in the expatriate communities outside China where the number of Chinese students and expats outnumber the few Tibetan Refugees.

Three, Who wants to "snatch" Tibet? Who are you accusing? Surely you don't mean that the Tibetan occupants of Tibet don't have the right to their live and govern their own land and people. So you must be accusing some outside force of this, I wonder which.

If the Chinese want to justify the occupation of Tibet, the Japanese are also justified in the occupation of China.

Tibet was a sovereign country that has been occupied by an aggressive China. If the world allows China to completely gobble up Tibet, parts of India, Burma and the neighbouring countries are next under threat from this unruly neighbour.

The Chinese want the respect of the world, then they should earn it. I have interacted with a lot of Chinese students during the course of my studies, and not only are they intellectual theives, but they mock the very US they die to come to. In most major corporations, they move the manufacturing back to China, reverse engineer the product and then sell a cheap and useless remake back to the US.

China has become a very powerful country which detractors on Tibet and human rights take every precaution not to go too far and risk to break the relationship.
Tibet should not have been occupied in the first place, but now China will do everything to keep it.
The Olympic games was found as a good excuse to bring the problem of Tibet back in the news. However, the violent reactions to the olympic flame have pricked China's pride and has shown that the Chinese communities living in most european and oceanic countries had a very strong solidarity with their country of origin.
The Olympic games will take place and China will take a long time to forget the olympic flame saga.

Bob G's response was much to the point: If the question were better posed, there might be better answers.

There were crackdowns -- and worse -- in Tibet before the Torch protests... and the story is not over: supporters of *autonomy* and respect for Tibet and its culture all over the world will continue to struggle in various ways, hoping for eventual relief and return -- and for the education of the Chinese people, so cruelly denied news of the world outside their rulers' fearful perspective.

The Dalai Lama consulted with Jewish leaders about the challenge of maintaining community life/cultural strength and religious hope in centuries of exile -- his vision is longer and broader than the Post's posters, asking for a conclusion to decades of conflict in a few months.

Bob G's response was much to the point: If the question were better posed, there might be better answers.

There were crackdowns -- and worse -- in Tibet before the Torch protests... and the story is not over: supporters of *autonomy* and respect for Tibet and its culture all over the world will continue to struggle in various ways, hoping for eventual relief and return -- and for the education of the Chinese people, so cruelly denied news of the world outside their rulers' fearful perspective.

The Dalai Lama consulted with Jewish leaders about the challenge of maintaining community life/cultural strength and religious hope in centuries of exile -- his vision is longer and broader than the Post's posters, asking for a conclusion to decades of conflict in a few months.

I really wish you would rephrase your question. No one, including of course the Dalai Lama, is talking about independence for Tibet. They are talking about autonomy for Tibet. Large Native American populations such as the Navaho in the Southwest have a certain amount of autonomy in the way they run their reservations. What the Tibetans are asking for is the chance to survive as Tibetans, keeping their language, customs and religion intact. Through repression, the Cultural Revolution and outright genocidal tactics, the Chinese rulers of Tibet have managed to kill 1 million Tibetans (see the report of the International Committee of Jurists, the U.N. adjunct, of several years back). The survival of Tibetan religious beliefs is extremely important not just for them, but for many in the West who are starved for spiritual nourishment.

Isn't China big enough without Tibet?

Is Tibetan independence a lost cause? If not, what should its supporters do to win it?

Not only do I believe Tibetan independence to be a lost cause, I believe Chinese independence--the independence of any country really--to be a lost cause. And the reason for my saying so is because the world is closing in upon itself more and more every day as far as human existence is concerned. In fact the world is closing in upon itself period what with humans bringing animal and plant species here and there (phenomenon of invasive species).

There is really not much to do about it...But we can adopt the best method, which is the Gandhi or Dalai Lama method--non-violence. That assures a measure of peace. Of course the temptation is greater to use violence, and probably the largest peoples can best get away with that for a time...But violence cannot solve anything in today's world and non-violence just delays the inevitable...

Actually violence is a very real possibility. Our only hope is that somehow we come to truly believe in progress understood as economic method--economic method to smooth over ethnic, racial, religious difference...

As for Tibet--and to stick to the topic--I see it becoming more and more incorporated into the main aspects of China.

It is a lost cause as far as for those who has been scheming to snatch Tibet from China. If democratic principle is applied to the attendees at the torch procession, there are more people in support of Tibet belonging to China than the number of people supporting Tibet independence. In the past few days. protests has gradually lost its appeal and support while the supports for the game stay high. The protests in France, England and USA exposed the unwillingness of those countries to protect the human right and freedom of the torch bearers to celebrate the Olympic while allowing the goons and thugs to try to disrupt the event. If the West want to disdainly dishonor the Olympic, so be it. After all, Olympic is a pillar of Western tradition, not Chinese.