Readers’ Responses to Our Question (23)

I also do not believe that Jesus(ata) is god.
if chrsitians worshipped one god, id probably still be christian.

except for LDS, jehovahs witnesses , and ithink sevetnh day adventists, all christians are trinitarians, and worship the son and the holy ghost as well as god.

no matter how you define it, that is 3

it is not putting all christians in a box, it is simply what is true.

just like saying all muslims are monotheists.

cristina said- (as the base of her logical frame)

"I could, for instance, claim that Maome, the Muslim prophet is a made up history as much as Jesus is for Muslims. Who would dare contradict me? "

well, first of all, who is maome?
The Prophet(pbuh) is known by several names, but ive never heard this one.

but anyway, i wont contradict you, or be confrontational-
but i will disagree.

why would you have the idea that the Prophet(pbuh) has a made up history?
his life is one of the most historically substantiated on the planet.

there is an entire science devoted to the very words he said- let alone the mundane details of his life.

the qu'ran was so scrupulously tended that the oldest qu'ran in the world is exactly to ever letter the same as the one today.
in other words, it has been extant and perfectly recorded throughtout its lifetime.

so, logically- yor own argument has fallen apart.

i am certainly making no attenpt to proselytize, but i am presenting the beliefs and history of my religion in a coherent and logical form.

bob- i dont know if having more schools of thought lends credence to anything, only confusion.

however, i would disagree that christianity has more schools of thought- or really any for that matter.

are you saying sects are schools of thought?

christianity is divided between the strict literalist and broad symbolic iinterpretations.

the further division are along the lines of new sects- but their interpretations pretty closely mirror each others.(except for snake handlers)

there are 4 main schools of thought in islam- and while some intepretation may be in varying degrees, they all agree on the basic 5 pillars and dont cancel each other out in any way.

also, historically, the date and place of the birth of the Prophet(pbuh) are known, and not contested.

Christmas is being advertized in such a big way that everyone, Christian or not, are so influenced that they feel they have to celebrate by making gifts and big lunches and dinners, not prayers.
This year considering the high cost of the gifts and food and beverages, a lot of people have to borrow to keep up with this commercial event.

Khwaja Massoud,

You say *I dont believe Jesus is God*.
But,you believe *the wooden hut in the middle of desert* as the house of Allah.

*one lie leads to a thousand lies*
Yes,for example,*Read* revelation to the unlettered man.

Mr. Massoud,

Cristina was too nice to you. Lumping all Christians into a single belief system is just as stupid as lumping all Muslims into one belief system. In fact both religions have different interpetations of their respective religions and I would lean heavily on the side of Christianity as having more schools of thought and thus having a wider range of beliefs then Islam within the context of being called a particular religion.

My personal favorite part of your post was, " The problem with Christians is they like to pick and choose what parts of their religion or its teachings to highlight, what parts of the Bible to be blared out, consigning the rest to oblivion." This just simply reeks of the pot calling the kettle black. Maybe Christians should be more like Muslims and run around and kill each other becuase we don't like the sect of their religion they are in. You know, kind of like Sunni's and Shia running around killing each other today. Maybe we could start a conflict between the Southern Baptists in the US and the Methodists.

I have and I will continue to argue for the rights of people, Muslims included, to be allowed to live their lives as their religion and social beliefs dictate. They should be able to do this without foreign intervention or the threat thereof. However, to make any claim any one religion is inheritantly better or worse then any other religion is just plain ignorant. There isn't a single religion out there today that can stand up to a microscope to start with. Muslims, as do Christians, have very long and detailed histories killing other people and themselves.

My previous post in this thread centered around actually liking Christmas if for no other reason then there was a brief time each year when good will towards men actually had a meaning. While not a perfect solution for todays problems at least it's a step in the right direction.

To Mary:

When I as born, I was free to choose whether or not to have a religion to follow and which one that would be. So I went a long way, reading, thinking...reflecting.

I agree with your point of view and I am not being ironical by saying it. Perhaps, my internal drive for mutual respect is so forceful, so strong that it leads me immediately to defend it in every circumstance. Balance is a virtue that I fight to keep well above any personal belief.

Your opinion is balanced, it makes sense and therefore is valid. No ironies.

I am not criticising khwaja Massoud, only his argument about a lie leading to a thousand lies. I strongly disagree with this view being put this way since I regard it as a false premise or a premise based on a biased principle: the principle that it is all about a lie. My post focused on this point.

Cristina, I rather interpreted khwaja massoud's comments as his feeling that the event celebrated in Christmas is the birth of Jesus Christ:the Christian God, and he is reminding us that as a muslim he does not feel part of this,but I felt that he or any one could have a problem with celebrating Christmas if it represents the date of birth of a pretty special guy who lived on this earth as a human being. I do know that muslims venerate JC and Mary even though they consider JC a great prophet, not a God, like we Christians believe. And you are quite correct that most of us catholics rarely read the bible, we do know a lot about JC's life, and the lord's prayer which he suggested praying alone not in groups, that is rarely brought up by any Christian religion, Catholic or other. But what really is Christmas if not the (convened upon)date of the birth of a man named Jesus, a human being who tried all his life to get people to get along together, 'Love thy neighbour as thyself' and couldn't the whole world celebrate Jesus who was born on December 25th and leave the religious interpretation out of it? For once, I agree with the commercialization,
because JC should not be appropriated by any religion, he's too good for that!

To khwaja Massoud
"...Jesus is God or Son of God. We are all Sons of God, aren't we? Do we then become God?"

You have come up with an interesting logical premise. Kudos to you because you managed to end up your original reasoning (the biblical lie in your view) with that kind of concluding argument.

I studied Logic for a while. I find it fascinating, the premises, the syllogisms, the fallacies, it is all about the use of logical thinking, when well used and understood. Much of it i forgot with the years, but I still have vivid memories of those matrix boards of P and q and S I had to built...

Anyway, my point is there are conflicting aspects of your reasoning: faith is not logical and Logic and not based on faith.

Your argumentation and therefore your conclusion fall apart if we consider this important aspect. I could, for instance, claim that Maome, the Muslim prophet is a made up history as much as Jesus is for Muslims. Who would dare contradict me? You? Not after your claim that a lie leads to a thousand lies. See: we are discussing argumentation, NOT YOURS OR MINE FAITH! please!

Instead, I respect the Muslim belief, but I will not try to any proselytism, as in veiled way just did. I met and befriended quite a few Muslims. One day of them presented me with a bible! Other friends went to a midnight mas with me. They did not pray, but kept me company. We had excellent relations. Each respecting the beliefs and the place of the other. No proselytism involved, veiled then would be sign off for me.

Faith is not explicable, and it does not have to make logical sense. Otherwise all religions would have to be made into comics. That would make the world laugh hard. But then we would be killing the right of individuals of seeking and developing a spiritual life, something that no science can effectively explain why humans do have such a need. There are theories, but theories are not scientific laws.

So, please, if you want respect for the Prophet, who I confess I know nothing about, but I respect the belief in him and though I may have my particular opinion, I would never come to say here or anywhere else that his existence, history and everything else is a lie...leading to a thousand lies and A LOT of confusion when interpreting the Koran.

We believe Jesus, is the son of go, in fact is the "Santissima Trinity" (God, His Son and the Holy Spirit). But i am not going to discuss that, I believe and I will not question what I believe because it comes by faith. I the same fashion I will not question why you believe in the Prophet for the same reasons I will not question myself. the name of it is : mutual respect and NO PROSELITISM! OR ANY STUPID SENSE THAT MY FAITH IS SUPERIOR THAN YOURS! THis is ridiculous and absurd.

Nevertheless, you do make an important point: most Christians "use" their faith in a "pick and choose" way as you correctly pointed out.

Rare are those who follow the 10 commandments. Just that would have been a great step towards human understanding, peace and harmony. Most not even know what I am talking about, or if they know they do not know all 10 by hart...Most do not red the Bible, particularly in the Catholic church, so they ignore many things. Being an ignorant, not in a pejorative way, but int he semantic use of the word.

On this point you are correct to point one of the main flaws of Christianity: the "pick and choose" way of living Christian faith.

As for your final lines: Yes, in my faith, we are all sons and daughters of God, but imperfect as we are, we must strive each day to overcome our limitations and try to be close to His teachings. Each day, should be a battle in this direction, but it isn't like that, as we all can see.

"...God or Son of God. We are all Sons of God, aren't we? Do we then become God?"

Of course not! There is only one God for Christians and even your faith you know that pretty well. One belief does not led to another just like that. Faith is not logical and Logic is not based on faith. It comes from within, form our heart.

Is Christmas a bigger event here in Canada than it was 10, 20 and 30 years ago? Is this a sign of Westernization or just commercialization? Does it matter?

Says Tom B "Christmas is a great opportunity to buy things and sell things, regardless of whether one lives in the West or not, and whatever one's religion is. It really shouldn't be that hard to empty the holiday of its religious and cultural history and turn it into a worldwide celebration of production and consumption... Then all people can join in the holiday fun!"

Perhaps the world has outgrown the hocus pocus of modern day Christian religion but still, with Christmas, the world will always know that there was a man named Jesus who tried all through his life to get people to live together in peace and marmony. Just because so far,people and their particular flavour of religions have not yet come to live as He taught makes no difference. He was still a great human being and his birth and life are certainly worth remembering. Perhaps one day the world will have left behind the dog and poney show that is organized religion and start to simply live by HIs great teachings. So I shall continue celebrating Christmas for what it is,neither westernization or commercialization, hope yours was a merry Christmas,peace on earth to men of good will.

As a Muslim I do not believe Jesus is God and therefore when there have been many other good souls born before him and after, why the special celebratory significance to Jesus's birthday? It is true Christians celebrate his birth because they think he is God. The question then arises, if he is God then does He prefer his birthday to be one in which commerce plays a greater role than faith?
The problem with Christians is they like to pick and choose what parts of their religion or its teachings to highlight, what parts of the Bible to be blared out, consigning the rest to oblivion. They are not brave enough to treat their religious book as one to be adhered to at any cost, at least the will to persevere with such an intention, like Muslims want to if they are allowed by Western forces who tend view all things Islamic with suspicion.
If Xmas is observed according to the spirit of the Bible then I bet its commercial facet attached to it will be wiped out. But will they allow that to happen?
It is all because one lie leads to a thousand lies. The belittling of the Bible is because of the First Myth Christians are trapped in, and that is the belief that Jesus is God or Son of God. We are all Sons of God, aren't we? Do we then become God?
KM

As a Muslim I do not believe Jesus is God and therefore when I know there have been many other good souls born before him and after, why the special celebratory significance to Jesus's birthday? It is true Christians celebrate his birth because they think he is God. The question then arises, if he is God then does He prefer his birthday to be one in which commerce plays a greater role than faith?
The problem with Christians is they like to pick and choose what parts of their religion or its teachings to highlight, what parts of the Bible to be blared out, consigning the rest to oblivion. They are not brave enough to treat their religious book as one to be adhered to at any cost, at least the will to persevere with such an intention, like Muslims want to if they are allowed by Westerners forces who tend view all things Islamic with suspicion.
If Xmas is observed according to the spirit of the Bible then I bet all this commercial facet attached to it will be wiped out. But will they allow that to happen?
It is all because, one lie leads to a thousand lies. The belittling of the Bible is because of the First Myth Christians are trapped in, and that is the belief that Jesus is God or Son of God. We are all Sons of God, aren't we? Do we then become God?
KM

BobL-VA and Tom B:

YOU both have a point. I may disagree with it, but it is till a point. Let us then assure that everybody can join the fun of the Mother of all holidays, the definite human season, the only one.

Let us forget that it had its beginning is some anachronism, represented symbolically by the day Jesus was born.
Let us assure that everyone can join the shopping spree preferably with no credit limits. That is fundamental for the fun of caring and giving really has a meaning.

To clean up the religious agenda, once for all, the 25th should be changed to another day...it can be December, but another day. SO the religious cleansing is complete.

Let us make sure that no advertisement, no image of Jesus, the Holy Family, heavenly beings, etc, nothing of that sort is used to promote the Mother of all holidays, that season, day or week that will turn the world more fraternal and human, more tolerant, respectful, peaceful!

Happy Christmas! Because we have not turned a religious celebration into a commercial season of fun, where there are small prices to pay for. I am assure that every human being is ready to pay this small price for a week of peace and love for all.

and Happy Holydays to all of you who are willing to joi the fun of the season!See the positive side of it: no coomitments beyound this week! It is reaaly a small price! YOu can't buy such human hamony, understanding, a smile, tolerance for less! Just make the sure that you have money to join the fun!

Happy Holidays,

Not being a Christian pretty much precludes me from viewing Christmas as a religious holiday. However, as a holiday it is the “Mother of All Holidays” in Christian countries. There is a spirit to the season which embraces the concepts of giving, caring for others and sharing that is rarely seen throughout the rest of the year. For a short period of time sayings like, “good will towards all,” actually has a meaning.

Without a doubt Christmas has become over commercialized. So what? Commercialization is a small price to pay for a week or so of people actually feeling good about their neighbors.

The WP’s editorial this morning about the 1914 Christmas truce during WWI is definitely worth reading. I sit here today hoping for a long range fate of peace is in store for all of us. However, until people are tolerant enough to accept the differences between people and embrace the commonalities we all share there is little hope of good will towards all prevailing outside of the holiday season.

Happy holidays to all……

Tom B:

You have a point. In fact, this season seems to have turned into a worldwide-unlimited consumerism celebration. If most, and not only the industrial and commercial interests concerned agree with we definitely should turn once for all this season in one of worldwide celebration of a society which is based on consumption and therefore, made this frenetic period of shopping in a period of fraternal love, a time where buying someone a gift, whatever price, will be a definite display of goodwill amongst men, fraternal love, human unbounded congregation.

I really like your proposal. It would terminate this ridiculous state of hypocritical behaviour we live many times when because we dont buy someone a gift, then you run the risk to be considered nasty and selfish, poor, even in need (financial, which is a humiliating sign). Let;s change that! Lets buy, buy, buy everyone and turn the world in a place of peace and fraternity once for all!

One small detail: Once that is done, once for all the "season" should have, once for all, it is name changed to something else. Live Christmas celebrations only to those who are not selling their hearts, their souls, their principles, their faith, their values...Live Christmas name and celebration to those who will not trade on Love.

At least, you were to the point: there is no Christmas spirit anymore. Just commerce, westernised or not. so let be it. But under another name! PLEASE! Some respect should be left for those who still believe in what they do or believe.

Christmas, for many quiet Christians, is a time to celebrate the birth of their lord and savior. What anyone else decides to do with it is their prerogative, wether in the west or not. But to tie it to the war in the middle east is just absurd. Why does W have to be the one that every points to to say, "Hey, this is what Christians are like". That makes no sense. Honestly, i could point to MTV and say the same things about a millions of other demographics but that would be ignorant........

Christmas is a great opportunity to buy things and sell things, regardless of whether one lives in the West or not, and whatever one's religion is. It really shouldn't be that hard to empty the holiday of its religious and cultural history and turn it into a worldwide celebration of production and consumption... Then all people can join in the holiday fun!

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1698102,00.html?xid=rss-world
I forgot to indicate the site above! Interesting.

Bout being a sign of Weternisation or commercialisation:
- I cannot say about the Westernisation as I was born and raised on the wetern part of the worl (though some contend if Sout Ameria is part of the so-called Western World). Japan would be part (?) but South America, some, I heard that, would doubt...they doubt the claim!

Anyway, I guess is rather a case of incresing and intensified comericialisation as pointed previouly and this fact is positively related to a perceived notion of economic gains.

As for the probable "Weternisation", I guess only those really fro non-Western parts of the world, or nos-Christians can say something especially and particularly if symbols like Santa Claus are to be taken as THE SYMBOLS OF CHRISTIMAS, WHICH FOR IS AN INSANITY!

Certainly, in commercial terms, the Christmas's season is a bigger event than it was some 10, 15 years. This is to go back only a few years back my own generation.

As Brazil in recent years has had a steady economic path, with clear signs to improve, festive seasons like this one is more and more appealing commercially. I say that taking in consideration that Brazilians regard themselves as a stount religious people...well, my state is still well known for this particular respect.

However, I can see that the commercial appeal has intensified, but not exactly has changed to intensify. In one or another, even in bleaker economic times, Christmas has grown to become THE COMMERCIAL EVENT in most, if not all the Western Christian world, as far I can claim that.

So, it is not Globalisation that is changing, transfiguring, or intensifying it...it might be helping to solidify what ,in my opinion, was already lost long ago: the true reason to celebrate Christmas, regardless eternal debates about real dates and places, and circumstances. it is the symbolism of it for the Christian world that has long been lost to other more profitable interests. SO it is also the case of Brazil, regardless any claims of being the largest Catholic nation on earth, dwindling (as the economy develops) , but still.

I read studies on anthropology (I just forgot the author, but is a household name) that points to the following conclusion: as more primitive a society, earlier its individuals would be forced to assume responsibilities, to lead, to be in charge, to care for his own family and for the group. The opposite is true, that is, as more developed a society is, its individuals would feel like acting in the same manner only later on in their lives.

I transfer this rationale and apply it slightly modified to the way we behave when confronted with (material) adversity and prosperity. Therefore, I bring this reasoning to the way people behave when a season like this ones approaches. In poorer areas, it still possible to see people more concerned in going to the midnight mass, to pray and fasten. Even now in 2007.

Am I reducing the whole affair to a simple case of some kind of utilitarianism? Yes and No. It is not that simple and it is not going to be in this space that I can talk about that in a length manner.

My view point is that religion has been a last resort, a remedy for the underprivileged. In this case, I am mention only the Christianity. My comment is not extensive to any other form of religion.

Once, the economic barrier is overcome, rapidly many, not all, tend to leave their religiosity i second plan.

For somebody like me, deeply religious, but not a fanatical or fundamentalist...neither a proselitism (thanks God!, this is a sad sign. It is a sign that people would put Jesus first in their lives only in adverse (economically adverse) times, or when some terrible illness strike in. Then, they remember what faith (Christian faith) is for.

Therefore, there is nothing being lost NOW, like the true reason for celebrating Christmas. This fact has long been lost, regardless any supposed process of intensified "westernisation" as put in the question. Sadly, perhaps, we still are driven by our needs, perceived or real.

Happy Christmas to all!

PS>: I will not bother to be politically correct, this thing of political correctness sometimes is abusive, not time to discuss taht , but anyway, I will not , and I never say Happy Holidays! Why? Christmas is a Christian date, so why should I change that fact to be politically correct towards other faiths? Jewish, Muslims, Hindus and others dont change the names of their festivities to be politically correct. Christmas is the celebration of the day Jesus was born and I am not going to change that just to please others.

I am very glad that today we, Christians for around the world celebrate THE CHRISTMAS, So be it!!!

Happy Christmas!

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1698102,00.html?xid=rss-world

Christ as a figure has no recognition in some parts of Arab world but they seems to have embraced X'mas becuase of the commercial appeal (Retail, TV etc.,)..its fashionable.

I think we need to be cognizant of the Chrstianity as religion its impact versus Christmas festivity, is distinct. So I think it is commercilization and may remain so in the Arab world.

Christ as a figure has no recognition in some parts of Arab world but they seems to have embraced X'mas becuase of the commercial appeal (Retail, TV etc.,)..its fashionable.

I think we need to be cognizant of the Chrstianity as religion its impact versus Christmas festivity, is distinct. So I think it is commercilization and may remain so in the Arab world.

Christ as a figure has no recognition in some parts of Arab world but they seems to have embraced X'mas becuase of the commercial appeal (Retail, TV etc.,)..its fashionable.

I think we need to be cognizant of the Chrstianity as religion its impact versus Christmas festivity, is distinct. So I think it is commercilization and may remain so in the Arab world.

All over North America, statistics show that Christmas has become the celebration of plutocratic paganism. So thus sings convincingly Mephistopheles: "Le veau d'or est toujours debout... Et Satan conduit le bal..!" ("The golden calf is still standing... And Satan leads the dance..!") ***

How about Christianity there?

Well, as it may not celebrate legitimately "Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men", all it can do (and does, quite publicly!) is celebrate its current "Crusades" (possibly the only accurate word ever used by some GWB): in Afghanistan, in Iraq, in fact all over the Middle East and the Muslim world.

That makes for Christmas having become, with each passing year, a bigger event. It may well be a sign of Westernization and of commercialization. Yet above all, given the true, deep, symbolic significance of Christmas, it remains one of fundamental spiritual decadence.

*** Boris Christoff - Gounod - Faust - Le veau d'or: http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=muy6DtnZ2Xg

Surely the slow commercialization of the Christmas season is a Western phenomenon. Christmas becomes more and more a secular holiday every year. And I like the decorations and the festivities, but its become so popular that it seems there are many people wrapping themselves in the trappings of Christmas with no religious background or belief.

Keeping with the Western mantra of BIGGER means better, we are more awash every year in larger light displays (now EXTREME light displays choreographed to horrendous techno-music), "Christmas sales" in Sept, all-holiday music radio stations beginning before Thanksgiving and 10-ft tall silly inflatable snow-globes appearing on people's front lawns.

Yet there is no larger rememberance that Christmas began as a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ. Where are the extreme calls to be kinder to your neighbor (or the other driver in the mall parking lot?), to live a life of service to others, and above all, to remember that the birth of Jesus Christ was the greatest gift any of us will ever receive? There has to be meaning behind all the lights, music, evergreen draping and such, otherwise its all for nothing.

really, it is more illogical as i reread it-

logic and reason already established should be rejected because of their historical age?