A Libyan al-Qaeda commander who was killed last week in northwestern Pakistan had lived there for years and, despite a $200,000 U.S. bounty on his head, felt secure enough to meet officials and visit hospitals, according to officials and residents of this city...
He met openly with a Pakistani politician and a Libyan diplomat and called on foreign fighters recovering from their wounds...
The Pakistani government contends it has been doing everything possible to capture al-Qaeda figures within its borders. But Libi, who was killed in a missile attack last week, moved unchallenged around the heart of Peshawar, a city of about 1.2 million people, underscoring how freely he and other al-Qaeda leaders have been able to operate in Pakistan.
One day in 2006, Libi strode into the central prison in Peshawar, the administrative capital of North-West Frontier Province. As another Libyan fighter sat nearby behind bars -- in the custody of Pakistani authorities -- Libi, the politician and the Libyan diplomat argued over whether the man should be deported against his wishes to Libya or released to fight another day, according to Javed Ibrahim Paracha, the politician who helped arrange the meeting.
"I knew Abu Laith for quite some time," said Paracha, a former member of the Pakistan National Assembly who is running for a parliamentary seat again in elections this month.
Paracha called Laith "a good and pious Muslim" and said the Libyan had frequently visited hospitals in Peshawar and the nearby city of Bannu to check on foreign fighters who had been wounded fighting alongside the Taliban and other militant groups.
The Pakistani government has barred U.S. forces from searching for al-Qaeda leaders on its soil...
It has been nearly two years since Pakistani forces are known to have killed or captured any significant al-Qaeda figures...
Libi emerged as a major figure among Islamic extremists in 2002, when he announced via videotape that al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden and Taliban leader Mohammad Omar had survived the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan...
Intelligence reports indicate that [when he was killed] Libi had been on his way to a meeting with Baitullah Mehsud, a Pakistani Taliban commander and tribal leader who has been blamed in the Dec. 27 assassination of former Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto, according to an intelligence official in Europe who spoke on condition of anonymity...
Libi's death came two months after he and al-Qaeda deputy leader Ayman al-Zawahiri announced in a joint statement that a Libyan militant network had formally joined forces with al-Qaeda. Libi was a longtime leader in the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, an organization founded in the early 1990s to topple Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi...
Paracha is a regional leader in the branch of the Pakistan Muslim League party that is headed by former prime minister Nawaz Sharif. Paracha is known to have close contacts with Taliban leaders and other militants...
He said he has negotiated the release of hundreds of foreign fighters from Pakistani prisons on the condition that they leave the country. "I've been doing this service for four years," he said...
How about that? Paracha is a regional leader of Nawaz Sharif's party and is buddy buddy with Abu Laith al-Libi who is buddy buddy with bin Laden and was on his way to meet with Baitullah Mehsud, a Pakistani Taliban commander and tribal leader who has been blamed in the Dec. 27 assassination of former Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto...
No, i havent picked up my Tata Nano yet. Will wait for their Micro :). Yes i read that report about the Indian base in Tajikstan. Its a struggle in the UPA (United Progressive Alliance) or dUPA (dis-United PA :)) between the Congress and the Communists when it comes to foreign policy for India in the 21st century, with BJP the main opposition party in agreement with Congress except perhaps on some matter of form for the sake of opposition rather than any substantive difference. Robert Gates the US Defence Secretary visits India this month and wonder if they will sign status of forces agreeement then as is proposed. The communists are congenitally anti-Americans. Witness the furore when they learnt that India had launched a satellite for Israel. With Russia playing its own power game, thats understandable, i suspect one will see US military-industrial complex gaining most from the monies that India has to spend on military purchases for the next 4 to 5 years.
As an aside, Saudi and Pakistani navies are conducting military exercises off Pakistan's coast. Wonder who mans the Saudi ships? As in the past, it was Pakistan who provided pilots to the Saudi Air Force!.
It does seem that India will have to downsize its big-power dreams in Central Asia. Its plan to deploy aircraft at the base at Ayni in Tajikistan is facing opposition from an unexpected quarter - Russia.
Why? The Russian rethink on India's role at Ayni appears to have been prompted by unease over India's new closeness to the Americans.
The net where i am is no problem :). Wonder how ordinary folks who dial in to the call centres are affected? And the problem with the undersea cable was it simply a technical fault or something more malicious. Paranoid i know, but its possible!. Interesting article in atimes today about India & Russia and a military base in Tajikstan.
The police came for me on a cold, rainy Tuesday night last month. They stood in front of my home in Islamabad, four men with hoods pulled over their heads in the driving rain. The senior officer, a tall, clean-shaven man, and I recognized one another from recent protests and demonstrations. Awkwardly, almost apologetically, he handed me a notice ordering my immediate expulsion from Pakistan. Rain spilled off a nearby awning and fell loudly into puddles.
I asked, somewhat obtusely, what this meant. "I am here to take you to the airport," the officer shrugged. "Tonight."
NEW DELHI (AP) -- India's lucrative outsourcing industry struggled Thursday to overcome Internet slowdowns and outages after cuts in two undersea cables sliced the country's bandwidth in half.
The disruption -- which has hit a swath of users from Egypt to Bangladesh -- began to affect much of the Middle East on Wednesday, when outages caused a slowdown in traffic on Dubai's stock exchange.
Thanks for the information. I now have several new sites to peruse for sources of news on Asia.
Perhaps you have figured out by now that you cannot have more than two links to internet sites referenced in a single post. That threw me for awhile too. Like you, I was wondering what was so offensive about my seemingly innocuous posts.
Victoria,
I agree with you about Arun Gandhi. His views on Israel track perfectly with my own. It is a shame that he was forced to resign from his Institute for Peace which he founded. Yes, it’s just one more example of the control over our media and government exerted by the Israeli Lobby.
Check out today's (26th Jan) edition of the daily times.
www.dailytimes.com.pk.
Excellent editorial. The lead article is about the Taliban capturing ammunition truck(s) of the Pakistani Army. And the new Chief of Army denying any threat to Pakistani nuclear sites, as the BBC had reported.
Another good source for views on Pakistan is Ms. Shireen Mazari. Her weekly column is carried by www.pakistanlink.com. She works in a think tank in Pakistan and i scan her articles for anti-India rhetoric as i see it. And am surprised from time to time, when her weekly article doesn't contain any anti-India rhetoric. She is equally if not more harsh on the US and UK for their role in Pakistan :)
Nivedita: Thanx! Forgot to acknowledge you in the last couple of posts :)
1. I have visited the US as a tourist but never stayed there for either studies or work. Though have lived in the true north :). Count a certain carrot eating varmint with a furry tail and long ears as an influence though :).
2. You rightly pointed out the Indo Israeli cooperation has probably blossomed into something deep. India has just launched a spy satellite for Israel. It will spy on Iran, Syria and presumably Pakistan too! And intelligence sharing between the two countries at least when it comes to Pakistan is a certainity. Two news items of note with regard to Pakistan from an Indian stand point. The Indian ambassador there being a target for terrorists as per Pakistani intelligence. Check out www.rediff.com. And the Pakistani nuclear sites on alert for possible terrorist strikes. This on the BBC website.
3. And today was India's 58th Republic day which went off peacefully in Jammu & Kashmir as per news from the rediff site. If so, that is good news indeed! Possily because most of the terrorists are now concentrating on doing battle with the hand that fed them earlier..the Pakistani state.
4. India & France have finalized status of forces agreement today. One of the many agreements signed between India and France during the current visit of President Sarkozy to India. He was the guest of honour for India's Republic Day parade.
4. Thus the likelihood of an Iranian,Chinese,Indian & Russian foursome opposing US led countries in the Gulf is quite unlikely given the above. \
Possibly my article has been held for clearance by the blog owner. Hmmm, i wonder why? How do i know this, because my second attempt at the now unposted post has been held up too!
Nothing objectionable as far as i could make out was written. No profanity or personal attacks except perhaps a humourous reference to the situation in the Gulf what with most countries being under the influence of one or more P5 nations. I did use the word 'carved' :). And how India's sphere of influence in such a situation could be call centres for all the P5 nations in India :).
hi rick- this is off topic a bit, but i just came from onfaith-
there has been some furor over a post by the grandson of mahatma gandhi, arun gandhi.
-
the original post stated that it was time for jewish people to forgive the past, and move forward in their dialogue-
then mr gandhi was forced to resign from the institute of peace which he himself started.
its a frightening pander to mob mentality-
certainly mr gandhis overstated his case when he said
" We have created a culture of violence (Israel and the Jews are the biggest players) and that Culture of Violence is eventually going to destroy humanity."
by saying the jews and israel are the biggest players-
but the lynch mob that has gone for his head, and got it- are far more terrifying than his words-
i know its off topic, and i didnt mean to hog the blog- but it is a scary abuse of power to me to remove the man from his own organization.
My Apology for My Poorly Worded Post
I am writing to correct some regrettable mis-impressions I have given in my comments on my blog this week. While I stand behind my criticisms of the use of violence by recent Israeli governments -- and I have criticized the governments of the U.S., India and China in much the same way -- I want to correct statements that I made with insufficient care, and that have inflicted unnecessary hurt and caused anger.
I do not believe and should not have implied that the policies of the Israeli government are reflective of the views of all Jewish people. Indeed, many are as concerned as I am by the use of violence for state purposes, by Israel and many other governments.
I do believe that when a people hold on to historic grievances too firmly it can lead to bitterness and the loss of support from those who would be friends. But as I have noted in previous writings, the suffering of the Jewish people, particularly in the Holocaust, was historic in its
proportions. While we must strive for a future of peace that rejects violence, it is also important not to forget the past, lest we fail to learn from it. Having learned from it, we can then find the path to peace and rejection of violence through forgiveness. |
Jewish Identity Can't Depend on Violence
Jewish identity in the past has been locked into the holocaust experience -- a German burden that the Jews have not been able to shed. It is a very good example of a community can overplay a historic experience to the point that it begins to repulse friends. The holocaust was the result of the warped mind of an individual who was able to influence his followers into doing something dreadful. But, it seems to me the Jews today not only want the Germans to feel guilty but the whole world must regret what happened to the Jews. The world did feel sorry for the episode but when an individual or a nation refuses to forgive and move on the regret turns into anger.
The Jewish identity in the future appears bleak. Any nation that remains anchored to the past is unable to move ahead and, especially a nation that believes its survival can only be ensured by weapons and bombs. In Tel Aviv in 2004 I had the opportunity to speak to some Members of Parliament and Peace activists all of whom argued that the wall and the military build-up was necessary to protect the nation and the people. In other words, I asked, you believe that you can create a snake pit -- with many deadly snakes in it -- and expect to live in the pit secure and alive? What do you mean? they countered. Well, with your superior weapons and armaments and your attitude towards your neighbors would it not be right to say that you are creating a snake pit? How can anyone live peacefully in such an atmosphere? Would it not be better to befriend those who hate you? Can you not reach out and share your technological advancement with your neighbors and build a relationship?
Apparently, in the modern world, so determined to live by the bomb, this is an alien concept. You don't befriend anyone, you dominate them. We have created a culture of violence (Israel and the Jews are the biggest players) and that Culture of Violence is eventually going to destroy humanity.
Thanks for the interesting post on Gaza Victoria. I posted a piece of it on Post Global Power Barameter under the Asia's Choke Points -Malacca Straights Thread.
With every Palestinian crisis, such as the one currently occurring in Gaza, there is a sense that neither side knows how to respond next. In the meantime, only the innocents suffer.
By Zahed Amanullah, January 23, 2008
I'm a Palestinian... get me outta here!
If the analogy of the Gaza strip as a 1.5 million capacity prison seems like hyperbole, witness the "prison break" this week of hundreds of Gaza's Palestinians into Egypt near the border town of Rafah. Residents broke through the border wall (with the aid of explosives) not to smuggle in more ammunition, but to buy "rice and sugar, milk and wheat."
With Israel's crushing two week old blockade in effect, intended to snuff out militant groups, Gazans have watched their economy crumble. Industrial stockpiles dwindled and food was in short supply. Fuel shipments were cut to Gaza’s sole power plant, leaving much of Gaza City in darkness. Reports on the ground outline relentless suffering.
It's a sign of how far things have come (or not, rather) since Israel's 2005 withdrawal from Gaza strip settlements, a withdrawal seen by Palestinians as one in name only. Israel still has control over nearly every aspect of Gazan life and has applied it mercilessly. Students destined for universities abroad have been trapped by the border closures and restrictions on travel. With the blockade, Gaza is at risk of becoming "virtually 100 percent aid dependent," according to a UNRWA representative.
For Israel, it is the barrage of Qassam rockets, deployed by the Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas’ military wing, that underscores the entire Israeli response in Gaza (suicide bombings from there have become virtually impossible since a border wall was built around it several years ago). Over 1000 Qassams were fired in 2006 alone. Considering the restraints, they are manufactured and deployed with remarkable efficiency.
"It is the duty of all states to ensure the right to life and safety of its people, especially from vicious acts of violence and terrorism," argues Gilad Cohen, Israel's UN representive. But the Qassams are, of course, no existential threat to the Jewish state. It is only poor Sderot, a farming village barely a mile from the border of northern Gaza, that bears the brunt of the rockets (calling them missiles would be an overstatement).
To the extent that Qassams have caused death or injury there, they are indefensible. But if, as the Israelis argue, every life is precious, the grossly disproportionate body count delivered within Gaza as retaliation serves as a reminder of how quickly the argument can turn. Within the past week, over 40 people have been killed and 120 injured, most of them civilians. Targeted killings mean little when aimed within one of the most densely populated areas of the world.
"It is a message to Hamas, and hopefully the people in Gaza, who by the way elected Hamas as the government, to put pressure on that government," adds an Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman. However, when Palestinians are pushed ever further below poverty level (as over two thirds of Gazans currently are), survival is more of a priority for them rather than facing militants with guns. The response is seen, quite rightly, as collective punishment.
It should also be noted that Gazans also helped elect Hamas not to wage endless (and so far, unwinnable) war, but to save themselves from the kleptocracy of a Fatah-led government. Hamas notably rejected a referendum proposed by Fatah leader and Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas on a two-state solution based on 1967 borders (something Hamas abhors). The fact that a clear majority of Palestinians support such an outcome may have been a reason.
The truth is that Qassams are much more a political weapon than a tactical one. To the extent it serves their interests, they are overstated by Israel and understated by Hamas (to the outside world, anyway). The salvos are a reaction of emotion and spite, not practicality. Deep down, most Palestinians probably know this.
If Israel is being goaded into reinvading the territory (as some are pondering), the result could be endless misery. As with any occupation (Iraq comes to mind), Israelis need to ask themselves what could possibly be achieved. Likewise, the Qassams do little more than offer Israel valuable cover. Without the current crisis, the recent decision by Israel to expand the Har Homa/Jabal Abu Ghneim settlement south of Jerusalem by 300 units might have met with more international resistance.
Ultimately, Hamas will have to reconsider the wisdom of their current tactics. The successful liberations of recent times have not relied largely on weaponry. This is no accident. From South Africa to East Timor, there is still tremendous global inertia towards supporting self-determination. That support depends on a moral high ground, which Qassams can only continue to obscure.
For now, Israel will pull back just enough to reduce the boiling over into merely boiling. Fuel shipments to the stricken power plant have now resumed. The lights are back on, but in the scheme of things, there is still darkness. Some Israelis are imagining the crisis to be a charade created by Hamas as a provocation. This in a conflict littered with them. Irony, it seems, is not yet in short supply.
Have you read the article by David Ignatius in today’s WP?// “A Pro for the Pakistani Army? Ashfaq Kiyani May Do What Pervez Musharraf Couldn't”// Admiral William Fallon, US chief of Central Command, visited General Ashfaq Kiyani, new Pakistani Chief of Staff on Tuesday of this week. Fallon’s account of his hour-long discussion with the Pakistani general supports other recent evidence that Kiyani is a professional soldier who wants to rebuild an army whose reputation and morale were tarnished during the Musharraf years. Fallon say’s that He Kiyani will focus less on the external threat posed by India and more on the internal danger posed by extremists like al-Qaeda. "He knows that you can only do so much with military force," Fallon said. To contain an insurgency, "you need to take care of the population" through economic and social development. The danger for Kiyani is that, like Musharraf, he will be seen as so close to the United States that he will lose credibility in his own country. Fallon recognized that problem when he cautioned about unilateral American actions that undercut Pakistani sovereignty. "I suspect there's a fair amount of sensitivity to a very visible U.S. footprint inside the country," he said.
Not only did you forget to sign off on your previous post, you also forgot to send it:) Where is it? You are not referring to your post @ January 22, 2008 3:31 PM are you? That one was signed. What did you tell us? We are dying to know!
I don’t see a reference to India-China joint military exercises. I’m afraid I missed the one that you referred to yesterday. Too bad, I would like to read it.
Thanks for the kind words Nivedita. I think Dolivaw has spent much time in the USA given his/her command of the English language and American popular phrases like “flavor of the month”.
I’m sorry to hear that Dolivaw. I was hoping that the Iran-China-Russia-India axis would team up to kick the Zionists out of Palestine and the Americans out of the Middle East where we continue to make a mockery of the principles on which our nation was founded. One can still hope.
I dont think India is joining the Iranian-Russian-Chinese alliance. The present Govt. has decided to refine the traditional non-aligned influenced foreign policy which was characterised by pro-soviet leanings in the past to one of non-aligned with pro-american leanings. The wish to have better relations with China could be to get their approval for the Indo-US nuclear deal by the present Govt. The joint military exercises which India and China conducted recently are the current flavour of the month :). Even the US is discussing it with China. Read today's Asiatimes online website for some insightful analysis.
Everyone is tiptoeing around everyone else i.e, US, India, China, Russia, EU, Japan..the game is underway which way it will be played out is as yet unclear. There are no clear cut sets of rules just shades of grey!
i just saw a clip on the news where 100s of women from the gaza strip were desparately trying to escape gaza at the egyptian border-
60 women were shot and wounded
Yes it is boomerang time, or payback time for our present and past misdeeds in the Middle East that have enraged the Muslim world and inspires freedom fighters of all stripes to attack the USA and its interests at home and abroad. God help the poor individual or regime that is seen as a US ally on the so called “war on terror”, which is code for our uncontrollable greed to grab unlimited access to all the oil fields in the Middle East and elsewhere in the world and to provide unconditional support to our ally Israel which also relies on imports for 99% of its oil.
This is why we maintain military bases in the Gulf States including three aircraft carrier task groups in the Arabian Gulf region further inflaming the Muslim world. In his recent trip to the region, President Bush continued his lobbying efforts to persuade the Saudis and other Gulf State rulers to keep the spigots open and the cheap oil flowing. Yet he never calls on the American people to sacrifice, to conserve, or to control our gluttony for oil in any way. Like he also never asks us to sacrifice to pay increased taxes to pay for his ill advised misadventure in Iraq, which even further inflames the Muslim world.
The world is further disgusted with news reports as were provided in the NY Times from a reported who accompanied Mr. Bush on his trip of the wretched saga of Gaza children suffering from a lack of food and medicine during the Israeli blockade, blending into the wretched excess scenes of W. being festooned with rapper-level bling [elaborate, gaudy jewelry and other accouterments, and a lifestyle built around excessive spending and ostentation] from royal hosts flush with gazillions from gouging us on oil…the president and his advisers Elliott Abrams and Josh Bolten went native, lounging in floor-length, fur-lined robes…// In Abu Dhabi, Sheik Khalifa bin Zayed al-Nahyan gave the president a gigantic necklace made of gold, diamonds, rubies and emeralds, so gaudy and cumbersome that even the Secret Service agent carrying it seemed nonplussed. Here in Saudi Arabia, the king draped W. with an emerald-and-ruby necklace that could have come from Ali Baba’s cave.// Time’s Massimo Calabresi described the Kuwaiti emir’s residence where W. dined Friday as “crass class”: “Loud paintings of harems and the ruling Sabah clan hang near Louis XVI enameled clocks and candlesticks in the long hallways.”// In Abu Dhabi, the president made a less-than-rousing speech about democracy while staying in the less-than-democratic Emirates Palace hotel’s basketball-court-size Ruler’s Suite — an honor reserved for royalty and W. and denied to Elton John, who is coming later this month to play the Palace.// The president’s grandiose room included a ballroom…The $3 billion, seven-star, 84,114-square-foot pink marble hotel — said to be the most expensive ever built — would make Trump blush. It glistens with 64,000 square feet of 22-carat gold leaf, 1,000 chandeliers, 20,000 roses changed every day, 200 fountains, a dome higher than St. Peter’s, an archway larger than the Arc de Triomphe, a beach with white sand shipped in from Algeria and a private heliport. The rooms, scattered with rose petals, range from $1,598 to $12,251.
It looks like we may be adding India to the Iran-China-Russia alliance, I mean partnership…
From Post Global:
India seeks Chinese approbation of its request for a special waiver from the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) to move ahead with its nuclear deal with the US... Beijing remains silent on the issue…Indian PM Manhoman Singh wraps up his 3-day visit to China as both countries laud their closer bilateral ties….China and Russia emphasize importance of close relationship…Space Ambitions: China says it's interested in Jupiter and that is might get in on Russian ambitions for Mars…"Soft power" is the best term to describe China's rapidly growing global political influence and deterrent power against the US...but a growing number of analysts wonder whether this non-military power is actually any "softer" in its ultimate effect than military action.
It looks like India is seeking but not receiving approval from China to make a deal with the USA.
From the WAshington Post:
India seeks Chinese approbation of its request for a special waiver from the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) to move ahead with its nuclear deal with the US... Beijing remains silent on the issue
Indian PM Manhoman Singh wraps up his 3-day visit to China as both countries laud their closer bilateral ties
Yes, I read that article first thing this morning and was going to send you the link. You beat me to it. It is very interesting and timely giving the upcoming elections; since ISI is accused of manipulating the last election – conveniently dropping corruption charges for those politicians who support Musharraf.
Yes, the practice of supporting “freedom fighters” against the USSR in Afghanistan (USA), against India in Kashmir (Pakistan), and then supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan (Pakistan) is coming home to roost. Now we can’t control them and we have been attacked in New York and Washington by Al Qaeda, and Pakistan is being attacked by a witch’s brew of several different groups including Al Qaeda. Some of these groups were formally on our payroll and are now in opposition that we are trying to rein them in.
You are right Victoria, Musharraf has shown before that he is not above using the ISI to gain or maintain power. The USA is throwing cold water on this theory of course, but that does not mean that it is not true. Just because we are paranoid doesn’t mean that they are not out to get us:)
pakistani newspapers and blogs are all pretty much in agreement that musharraf supplied the weapons to the rebels in the red mosque through the ISI-
the red mosque is about 1 mile from an ISI headquarters and it just not physically possible to have gotten the weapons past them -
this article may play for americans who have no real interest or background knowledge of the incident-
but is clearly an attmept by musharraf and his cohorts to waylay the very loud and very public criticism of the ISI by the familair claims of, infiltration of "extremists"
as always, one asks in any tragic event-
who stands to benefit?
nusharraf unquestionably benefitted greatly politically from this incident internationlally and domestically.
Sort of vindicates what the Indian Establishment has been saying all along..Pakistan's fight against terrorism is just a front and the blow back may consume the country or may weaken it severely.
A prospect that is very welcome from many in India, because the mindset of Pakistani establishment is still to destabilize India even if the Kashmir issue is solved to Pakistan's satisfaction.
“Will Bush rescue the Annapolis accord as he visits the Middle East for essentially the first time?”
And the answer provided by the author is...
No Annapolis rescue...just another photo op to enable radical Islamists.
“Most analysts believe President Bush won't start crafting constructive policies now, in his last year, when he has had no vision for the region for 7 years. What most thought leaders are asking is whether the President has any real priority beyond an attempt to reach for some type of better legacy than he has now. Few believe he does and that will make it difficult for this trip to achieve much if anything other than photo ops. Unfortunately, it provides the opportunity for US opponents, particularly radical Islamists, to achieve much as they direct anger and rage toward the most unpopular US President in memory.”
Taliban Commander Emerges As Pakistan's 'Biggest Problem'
Radical Accused in Bhutto's Death Has Quickly Gathered Power
By Imtiaz Ali and Craig Whitlock
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, January 10, 2008; A17
PESHAWAR, Pakistan, Jan. 9 -- Even as his reputation has grown more menacing and his militia more powerful, the Taliban commander accused of ordering the death of Benazir Bhutto has shrouded himself in mystery.
“Those in the political establishment and outside who are stridently pushing the deal may be a varied lot but share one common trait: None had advocated or desired that India go overtly nuclear…”
Beware this crowd. Don’t let the US trick you into giving up your nuclear option while the US and Israel keep ours. I would like to see every one ban nuclear weapons, but what is fair for one is fair for all. The US has demonstrated in Iraq and Palestine that we certainly don’t hold the moral high ground.
The reason for going nuclear is that it is a relatively cheap deterrent not only for other nuclear adversaries, but also for those with overwhelming conventional military might like the US and soon to be like China.
I didn’t realize that India is so concerned about China.
“No government leader has claimed, or can assert, that the country today can effectively deter China, its primary challenge…”
I thought that Pakistan was your primary challenge.
“Nothing better illustrates this danger than New Delhi’s own action in pulling the wool over public eyes by denying the Chinese demolition of the Indian forward posts, lest questions be asked at home as to what it has done in response to the provocation. It even goes to the extent of needlessly downplaying the increasing cross-border Chinese military incursions…”
Amazing, we never hear this in the mainstream media.
“A decade after declaring itself a nuclear-weapons state, India’s primary focus today is more on buying high-priced conventional weapons from overseas (reflected in its emergence as a top arms importer in the world) than on plugging gaps in its deterrence. Consequently, India’s goal of erecting a credible and survivable nuclear deterrent, as the private intelligence service Stratfor put it, is at least a decade away…”
Asiatimes online is indeed a very good source of news and analysis. Refreshing change from mainstream news reporting. Their correspondent for Pakistan is one of the best and seems to have good sources of news both in official Pakistani as well as in the 'Jihadi/Taliban' circles.
Do read an article on Indo-Nuclear deal in the Asianage by Brahma Chellaney and why a lot of people in India are opposing it. www.asianage.com.
Whew! Indian politics is much more complicated than ours it seems. Maybe it’s just because I live every day with ours. Thanks for your efforts to sort it out for us. From what I see your very tolerant Hindu philosophy is very admirable indeed and much preferable to our Judeo-Christian based society. Your caste system though seems to be not so great, but perhaps that will change with time. Or maybe it is not as bad as it seems to the outsider.
Today, America is much more religious than the more secular European societies, and I think we pay a great price for that. For the past thirteen years or so we have been easily duped and led astray by the right religious wing nuts that have had way too much influence. Maybe this will be the year that we banish them back to the wilderness for another 40 years. I certainly hope so.
I think that you have misunderstood me. I think MikeB may have said that India’s mistreatment of Muslims and Christians is the root cause of Islamic extremism and terrorism. But not me, please point to some statement in my posts that suggests that.
I think that Islamic extremism and suicide bombers were invented in Egypt in March 1928 when the charismatic preacher Hassan al-Banna founded the Muslim Brotherhood with six employees of the Suez Canal Company.
Yes it is proven that the fire couldnot have been started from the outside. Forensic report etc. However, 60 litres of fuel is estimated to have caused the destruction that it did. SIT (Special Investigation Team) of Gujarat Police headed by Rakesh Asthana and his team have deposed before the Nanavati commission that it was a pre-planned conspiracy. http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/1599-hindus-started-it-muslims-took-climax.html
(There are other articles which provide both points of view ..a search on google will yield them..)
Check out the article. Yes, much to think about, the role of karsevaks etc. There are two theories out: One it was an accident, the other by the SIT that it was pre-planned. As with everything in India, this has been politicized by pro and anti hindutva camps and the media is playing its part in keeping its TRP ratings high :). Hence, the truth if it was truly an accident or a conspiracy will never be known.
As to 2000 muslims being killed, that is a number which has been debated..as the number is closer to 900 muslims and about 200 or so hindus. Not to be flippant about it, but accuracy in the media and the lack of judging the post-godhra riots without reference to the original incident or even a reference to it, is bothersome.
As in Gulf War I, these riots were the first TV riots so to say in India. I believe the anti-sikh riots of 1984 were far worse (not to belittle the horrendousness of it) as they affected multiple cities in India. Possibly, we didnt have private media channels then and hence information could be managed better.
RSS and Mahatma Gandhi
Nathuram Godse the killer of Bapu was earlier a member of RSS, but had moved on to the Hindu Mahasabha. A common mistake made by many writers over the years. In fact, in the movie Gandhi, they showed a supposedly Hindu leader with flowing hair and beard (an allusion to the then head of RSS Golwalkar) as nodding to N Godse as he walks to assassinate Gandhiji. That scene is a figment of someone's fertile imagination. At the trial, his defence testimony was censored and not made public for a good many years. (see the link for an English translation of his defence testimony... http://ngodse.tripod.com/defense.htm ).
Apparently, the authorities thought if the public heard it, it would trigger sympathy for him and the reasons why he killed Gandhiji. N Godse was a Maharashtrian Brahmin from Pune and after the killing, Brahmins in Maharashtra had their houses torched. Hindu Mahasabha was founded by V D Savarkar and he advocated that hindu youths should undertake science and technology studies, eat meat and do away with supersitions. For him, the entire subcontinent was mother a more nationalist than religious minded. He had suffered at the hands of British in Andaman cellular jail. The cellular jail operated by the British in pre-independence India was extremely harsh and it took a lot to survive it. He is again a figure to be either eulogised or held in contempt depending on which side of the political debate one is in India. There is evidence to suggest that he may have ultimately collaborated with the British to gain his independence.
RSS was born in Nagpur in 1925 as Rick has suggested. As the only country with majority Hindu population (Ok Nepal is one too)there is a need for such an organization. It encompasses many spheres and has given birth to BJP and its predecessor the Jana Sangh on the political side. Has both male and female wings. Has a cadre of dedicated people who work in all parts of India to counter Christian Missionaries and their insidious activities in rural and tribal areas. And are usually involved in relief activities during natural disasters: floods, earthquakes, Tsunami. Not a religious organization per se. VHP is an offshoot of the RSS as is the Bajrang Dal. They organize evening play time for young hindu kids..shakhas as they are known. In the 70s and 80s before internet :), they were fairly popular. With globalization and the like, they probably dont get as many young recruits as before. They are like an uncle or aunt you dont want to know, but privately admire for their stand. Are they in tune with the times, hmmm good question. They were born at a time when India and the world was pretty different. The biggest event is the annual address by the RSS Chief in Nagpur during the festival of Dussehra or as its known Vijayadashmi. A sort of state of the nation address. Vijaydashmi ..the day when Lord Ram finally vanquished Ravana. Nationalistic and for them a Hindu is for whom India is a mother..Bharat Mata.
As to HRW being neutral hmmmm.. i dont know. I tried searching for any statements or press releases from HRW on the issue of Taslima Nasreen and the rioting by Muslims in Kolkata and earlier attack on her in Hyderabad. Nada..didnt find anything on the HRW website. No statement calling on the Govt of India to provide her with protection. In case of speech made by Narendra Modi during campaigning, the HRW was quick enough to come out with a statement. Leads one to conclude there are double standards operating here.
In India secularism is given a bad name and has come to meant the following:
1. If you are anti-Hindu you are secular
2. Minorities are inherently secular, only hindus are communal. Go figure!
3. Minority institutions can operate the way they want. No Govt. oversight on admissions etc
4. Their religious practices controlled by them, but for Hindus the state govts. control the temples (especially in south)
5. The Govt. of India has a practice of subsidizing the Hajj pilgrimage for Muslims. A rather twisted definition of secularism.
6. Talk of single unified civil code for all Indians, is immediately met with ..Hindu agenda and Fascism. No debate is possible.
Regarding the recent violence in Orissa, it has more to do with reservations i.e., affirmative actions given a communal colour. Read a report on www.ibnlive.com. Converting to christianity and then claiming same privileges as backward Hindus takes the cake! Convert in the name of equality and to escape the curse of caste and then ask for the same privileges after conversion.
As to Benazir Bhutto in relation to India. please read the latest article by Francois Gautier on Rediff.com. Many in India didnt have any illusions about her.
Mike B, Rick Jones and others:
You seem to think that somehow Islamic terrorism is a new phenomenon. The truth is that Islam has been terrorising infidels since its creation. Muhammed himself murdered hundreds of innocents (google Banu Qurayza) and raped many women.
Blaming India for Islamic terrorism is perhaps the most, for lack of a better word, retarded statement I have heard. How about you answer the question as to how Islam is in India in the first place? Let me give you some insight. Islamic invaders plundered and destroyed cities in their paths and killed Hindus in numbers that make the holocaust pale in comparison. And they are still doing so. Muslims deserve everything they get. I hope you learne more.
Here is the quote from the Wikipedia reference that you gave me that led me to say that RSS was formed to combat Muslim riots:
“In 1925, Dr. Keshav Baliram Hedgewar, a Nagpur doctor influenced by recent Hindu-Muslim riots in his town, formed the Rashtriya Swayemsevak Sangh aiming to protect Hindus by organizing together…”
Here is the quote that says they are not separatist or nationalist. Actually they are opposed to separatists and nationalists:
“With regards to claims of having an anti-Muslim stance, RSS spokesperson Ram Madhav has stated that such claims are a "distortion of RSS ideology". He asserts that the RSS "believes in the oneness of our culture and the country" and that "any opposition to this view could lead to disintegration as it in fact happened with the Partition. This accent against divisiveness should therefore not be seen as hatred towards any particular religion…
Vincent Kundukulam, a Christian priest at St. Joseph Pontifical Seminary in Aluva, Kerala, has written a Ph.D thesis in Sorbonne University, Paris, France, that claims RSS to be neither nationalist nor fascist. He states that that RSS cannot be considered as a nationalist organisation in the sense in which the term 'nationalism' is generally interpreted in India. He points out that Indian nationalism and religion are mutually exclusive. Since RSS's primary loyalty is to the Hindus, it can't be called 'nationalist'. He also argues against branding the RSS ideology as "Fascism", "Nazism", "Fundamentalism" and "Communalism". He said the terms fascism, Nazism, and fundamentalism are much abused terms in India. They have a different connotation and meaning in the European context that don't apply to an Indian sociopolitical context. He argues that since communalism is not a part of religion, RSS can be called "communal" only in a limited way…”
So it looks to me like they are only guilty of trying to preserve their Hindu way of life, an admirable quality I think.
I agree with your concern about the contest over Jammu and Kashmir of course, since the contestants are nuclear armed. But I think they are not crazy. I think we should be more concerned about nukes getting into the hands of the Taliban and al Qaeda in NW Pakistan.
the BJP sprang from the RSS- its really far right wing, and only made a statement last year disassociatng itself from the caste system- that article i linked is a film made about the treatment of dalits(untouchables) by the RSS(BJP)
(o btw- the RSS wasnt formed to conuteract muslim riots- but as a spearatist and hindu nationalist movement) not sure were you got that
the muslim brotherhood sprang up as a reaction against exactly those leaders who embraced zionisim-
actually, theyre both kind of separatist, isolationist, and extreme far right orgs- begun at the same time
although as the BJP - the RSS is trying to soften its image for the west
i also dont know why dolivia tinks the BJP is rejecting the indo-us nuke deal- they are the ones who made it-
egyptian politics?
im not getting into that
but the BJP/RSS are relevant now as a political force that is polarized against the muslims to the north-
since they both have nuclear capacity-
and are still fighting over a tiny plot of land i kashmir-
Thanks for the reference on RSS. That was very interesting. I’ve been wondering what the RSS is.
It looks like it is a force in preserving the Hindu religion and way of life. They are supporters of the BJP political party. It was formed in 1925 to protect Hindus from Muslim rioters. It was active in Hindu relief activities during the partition and maintained an “anti-Islamic banner”. It has an estimated 4.5 million active members. They feel that the Hindu tradition is being marginalized by nationalism in India. It feels that Islam threatens the fabric of Hindu philosophy, which is religious tolerance. They believe that India’s Muslims are converts through force of “circumstances”, and would convert back to Hindu given better “circumstances”. They are tolerant of all religions, but they are opposed to anything that divides the nation as indeed happened with the partition. They are opposed to the caste system. They are opposed to Islamic Fundamentalism and Islamist terrorism. They side with Israel in their dispute with Palestinians. They have been called fascist but this does not seem to fit. They are accused of organizing and equipping the rioters that killed 2,000 Muslims across the state following the railway coach burning in Gujarat in 2002.
I looked for a Dolivaw reference to RSS and couldn’t find it. But now I see why you were taking him to task if he said anything positive about RSS. Actually, at the risk of getting on your bad side, I must admit that the organization seems to have many admirable qualities; e.g. charitable relief to the poor and oppressed, opposition to the caste system, preserving the Hindu way of life. I oppose their siding with the Israelis against the Palestinians. But the religious tolerance of Hinduism seems to be far superior to either Christianity, Judaism or Islam:)
Readers’ Responses to Our Question (188)
Say Benazir that ben laden was ded?
April 29, 2008 3:16 AM | Report Offensive Comments
“Hands off please, Uncle Sam”, is the title of an editorial in The News, one of Pakistan’s leading daily news papers.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/26/world/asia/26pstan.html?hp=&pagewanted=print
That sounds like a plan. But do you think that Bush is listening? No way.
March 25, 2008 3:33 PM | Report Offensive Comments
From today’s WP...
A Libyan al-Qaeda commander who was killed last week in northwestern Pakistan had lived there for years and, despite a $200,000 U.S. bounty on his head, felt secure enough to meet officials and visit hospitals, according to officials and residents of this city...
He met openly with a Pakistani politician and a Libyan diplomat and called on foreign fighters recovering from their wounds...
The Pakistani government contends it has been doing everything possible to capture al-Qaeda figures within its borders. But Libi, who was killed in a missile attack last week, moved unchallenged around the heart of Peshawar, a city of about 1.2 million people, underscoring how freely he and other al-Qaeda leaders have been able to operate in Pakistan.
One day in 2006, Libi strode into the central prison in Peshawar, the administrative capital of North-West Frontier Province. As another Libyan fighter sat nearby behind bars -- in the custody of Pakistani authorities -- Libi, the politician and the Libyan diplomat argued over whether the man should be deported against his wishes to Libya or released to fight another day, according to Javed Ibrahim Paracha, the politician who helped arrange the meeting.
"I knew Abu Laith for quite some time," said Paracha, a former member of the Pakistan National Assembly who is running for a parliamentary seat again in elections this month.
Paracha called Laith "a good and pious Muslim" and said the Libyan had frequently visited hospitals in Peshawar and the nearby city of Bannu to check on foreign fighters who had been wounded fighting alongside the Taliban and other militant groups.
The Pakistani government has barred U.S. forces from searching for al-Qaeda leaders on its soil...
It has been nearly two years since Pakistani forces are known to have killed or captured any significant al-Qaeda figures...
Libi emerged as a major figure among Islamic extremists in 2002, when he announced via videotape that al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden and Taliban leader Mohammad Omar had survived the U.S.-led invasion of Afghanistan...
Intelligence reports indicate that [when he was killed] Libi had been on his way to a meeting with Baitullah Mehsud, a Pakistani Taliban commander and tribal leader who has been blamed in the Dec. 27 assassination of former Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto, according to an intelligence official in Europe who spoke on condition of anonymity...
Libi's death came two months after he and al-Qaeda deputy leader Ayman al-Zawahiri announced in a joint statement that a Libyan militant network had formally joined forces with al-Qaeda. Libi was a longtime leader in the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, an organization founded in the early 1990s to topple Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi...
Paracha is a regional leader in the branch of the Pakistan Muslim League party that is headed by former prime minister Nawaz Sharif. Paracha is known to have close contacts with Taliban leaders and other militants...
He said he has negotiated the release of hundreds of foreign fighters from Pakistani prisons on the condition that they leave the country. "I've been doing this service for four years," he said...
How about that? Paracha is a regional leader of Nawaz Sharif's party and is buddy buddy with Abu Laith al-Libi who is buddy buddy with bin Laden and was on his way to meet with Baitullah Mehsud, a Pakistani Taliban commander and tribal leader who has been blamed in the Dec. 27 assassination of former Pakistani prime minister Benazir Bhutto...
February 4, 2008 3:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Rick:
No, i havent picked up my Tata Nano yet. Will wait for their Micro :). Yes i read that report about the Indian base in Tajikstan. Its a struggle in the UPA (United Progressive Alliance) or dUPA (dis-United PA :)) between the Congress and the Communists when it comes to foreign policy for India in the 21st century, with BJP the main opposition party in agreement with Congress except perhaps on some matter of form for the sake of opposition rather than any substantive difference. Robert Gates the US Defence Secretary visits India this month and wonder if they will sign status of forces agreeement then as is proposed. The communists are congenitally anti-Americans. Witness the furore when they learnt that India had launched a satellite for Israel. With Russia playing its own power game, thats understandable, i suspect one will see US military-industrial complex gaining most from the monies that India has to spend on military purchases for the next 4 to 5 years.
As an aside, Saudi and Pakistani navies are conducting military exercises off Pakistan's coast. Wonder who mans the Saudi ships? As in the past, it was Pakistan who provided pilots to the Saudi Air Force!.
Cheers
February 2, 2008 10:44 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Russian turbulence for Indian airbase
It does seem that India will have to downsize its big-power dreams in Central Asia. Its plan to deploy aircraft at the base at Ayni in Tajikistan is facing opposition from an unexpected quarter - Russia.
Why? The Russian rethink on India's role at Ayni appears to have been prompted by unease over India's new closeness to the Americans.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JB01Df02.html
Yep, India had better get back on the winning side of WW III...the Russia, China, Iran, Arab League...India alliance.
February 1, 2008 9:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Dolivaw,
Perhaps you are not so paranoid after all. Cable number three was cut today. Coincidence…? Not likely.
Have you picked up your new Tata Nano yet?
February 1, 2008 8:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Rick:
The net where i am is no problem :). Wonder how ordinary folks who dial in to the call centres are affected? And the problem with the undersea cable was it simply a technical fault or something more malicious. Paranoid i know, but its possible!. Interesting article in atimes today about India & Russia and a military base in Tajikstan.
January 31, 2008 3:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Kicking the truth out of Pakistan:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/30/AR2008013003012_pf.html
For Journalists in Pakistan, That's the Way It Is
By Nicholas Schmidle
Sunday, February 3, 2008;
The police came for me on a cold, rainy Tuesday night last month. They stood in front of my home in Islamabad, four men with hoods pulled over their heads in the driving rain. The senior officer, a tall, clean-shaven man, and I recognized one another from recent protests and demonstrations. Awkwardly, almost apologetically, he handed me a notice ordering my immediate expulsion from Pakistan. Rain spilled off a nearby awning and fell loudly into puddles.
I asked, somewhat obtusely, what this meant. "I am here to take you to the airport," the officer shrugged. "Tonight."
January 31, 2008 11:01 AM | Report Offensive Comments
I mean Dolivaw :)
January 31, 2008 10:58 AM | Report Offensive Comments
How’s your internet bandwidth today Olivaw?
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/technology/AP-Internet-Outages.html?sq=Israel&st=nyt&scp=6&pagewanted=print
Internet Outages Hit India, Middle East
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 9:30 a.m. ET
NEW DELHI (AP) -- India's lucrative outsourcing industry struggled Thursday to overcome Internet slowdowns and outages after cuts in two undersea cables sliced the country's bandwidth in half.
The disruption -- which has hit a swath of users from Egypt to Bangladesh -- began to affect much of the Middle East on Wednesday, when outages caused a slowdown in traffic on Dubai's stock exchange.
January 31, 2008 10:19 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Dolivaw,
Thanks for the information. I now have several new sites to peruse for sources of news on Asia.
Perhaps you have figured out by now that you cannot have more than two links to internet sites referenced in a single post. That threw me for awhile too. Like you, I was wondering what was so offensive about my seemingly innocuous posts.
Victoria,
I agree with you about Arun Gandhi. His views on Israel track perfectly with my own. It is a shame that he was forced to resign from his Institute for Peace which he founded. Yes, it’s just one more example of the control over our media and government exerted by the Israeli Lobby.
January 26, 2008 10:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Check out today's (26th Jan) edition of the daily times.
www.dailytimes.com.pk.
Excellent editorial. The lead article is about the Taliban capturing ammunition truck(s) of the Pakistani Army. And the new Chief of Army denying any threat to Pakistani nuclear sites, as the BBC had reported.
Another good source for views on Pakistan is Ms. Shireen Mazari. Her weekly column is carried by www.pakistanlink.com. She works in a think tank in Pakistan and i scan her articles for anti-India rhetoric as i see it. And am surprised from time to time, when her weekly article doesn't contain any anti-India rhetoric. She is equally if not more harsh on the US and UK for their role in Pakistan :)
Nivedita: Thanx! Forgot to acknowledge you in the last couple of posts :)
Cheers
January 26, 2008 3:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Check out todays (26th Jan) edition of the dailytimes.
www.dailytimes.com.pk
Interesting editorial and a few news items too.
Nivedita: Thankx!
Cheers
January 26, 2008 3:43 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Rick, Victoria:
Third attempt phew!
1. I have visited the US as a tourist but never stayed there for either studies or work. Though have lived in the true north :). Count a certain carrot eating varmint with a furry tail and long ears as an influence though :).
2. You rightly pointed out the Indo Israeli cooperation has probably blossomed into something deep. India has just launched a spy satellite for Israel. It will spy on Iran, Syria and presumably Pakistan too! And intelligence sharing between the two countries at least when it comes to Pakistan is a certainity. Two news items of note with regard to Pakistan from an Indian stand point. The Indian ambassador there being a target for terrorists as per Pakistani intelligence. Check out www.rediff.com. And the Pakistani nuclear sites on alert for possible terrorist strikes. This on the BBC website.
3. And today was India's 58th Republic day which went off peacefully in Jammu & Kashmir as per news from the rediff site. If so, that is good news indeed! Possily because most of the terrorists are now concentrating on doing battle with the hand that fed them earlier..the Pakistani state.
4. India & France have finalized status of forces agreement today. One of the many agreements signed between India and France during the current visit of President Sarkozy to India. He was the guest of honour for India's Republic Day parade.
4. Thus the likelihood of an Iranian,Chinese,Indian & Russian foursome opposing US led countries in the Gulf is quite unlikely given the above. \
January 26, 2008 2:48 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Rick, Victoria:
Possibly my article has been held for clearance by the blog owner. Hmmm, i wonder why? How do i know this, because my second attempt at the now unposted post has been held up too!
Nothing objectionable as far as i could make out was written. No profanity or personal attacks except perhaps a humourous reference to the situation in the Gulf what with most countries being under the influence of one or more P5 nations. I did use the word 'carved' :). And how India's sphere of influence in such a situation could be call centres for all the P5 nations in India :).
Cheers
January 26, 2008 2:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
hi rick- this is off topic a bit, but i just came from onfaith-
there has been some furor over a post by the grandson of mahatma gandhi, arun gandhi.
-
the original post stated that it was time for jewish people to forgive the past, and move forward in their dialogue-
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2008/01/jewish_identity/
then 3 posts regarding mr gandhi-
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/guestvoices/index.htm
then mr gandhi was forced to resign from the institute of peace which he himself started.
its a frightening pander to mob mentality-
certainly mr gandhis overstated his case when he said
" We have created a culture of violence (Israel and the Jews are the biggest players) and that Culture of Violence is eventually going to destroy humanity."
by saying the jews and israel are the biggest players-
but the lynch mob that has gone for his head, and got it- are far more terrifying than his words-
i know its off topic, and i didnt mean to hog the blog- but it is a scary abuse of power to me to remove the man from his own organization.
dont criticize israel- message well received
January 26, 2008 1:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
then mr gandhi was forced to apologize
My Apology for My Poorly Worded Post
I am writing to correct some regrettable mis-impressions I have given in my comments on my blog this week. While I stand behind my criticisms of the use of violence by recent Israeli governments -- and I have criticized the governments of the U.S., India and China in much the same way -- I want to correct statements that I made with insufficient care, and that have inflicted unnecessary hurt and caused anger.
I do not believe and should not have implied that the policies of the Israeli government are reflective of the views of all Jewish people. Indeed, many are as concerned as I am by the use of violence for state purposes, by Israel and many other governments.
I do believe that when a people hold on to historic grievances too firmly it can lead to bitterness and the loss of support from those who would be friends. But as I have noted in previous writings, the suffering of the Jewish people, particularly in the Holocaust, was historic in its
proportions. While we must strive for a future of peace that rejects violence, it is also important not to forget the past, lest we fail to learn from it. Having learned from it, we can then find the path to peace and rejection of violence through forgiveness. |
January 26, 2008 1:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Jewish Identity Can't Depend on Violence
Jewish identity in the past has been locked into the holocaust experience -- a German burden that the Jews have not been able to shed. It is a very good example of a community can overplay a historic experience to the point that it begins to repulse friends. The holocaust was the result of the warped mind of an individual who was able to influence his followers into doing something dreadful. But, it seems to me the Jews today not only want the Germans to feel guilty but the whole world must regret what happened to the Jews. The world did feel sorry for the episode but when an individual or a nation refuses to forgive and move on the regret turns into anger.
The Jewish identity in the future appears bleak. Any nation that remains anchored to the past is unable to move ahead and, especially a nation that believes its survival can only be ensured by weapons and bombs. In Tel Aviv in 2004 I had the opportunity to speak to some Members of Parliament and Peace activists all of whom argued that the wall and the military build-up was necessary to protect the nation and the people. In other words, I asked, you believe that you can create a snake pit -- with many deadly snakes in it -- and expect to live in the pit secure and alive? What do you mean? they countered. Well, with your superior weapons and armaments and your attitude towards your neighbors would it not be right to say that you are creating a snake pit? How can anyone live peacefully in such an atmosphere? Would it not be better to befriend those who hate you? Can you not reach out and share your technological advancement with your neighbors and build a relationship?
Apparently, in the modern world, so determined to live by the bomb, this is an alien concept. You don't befriend anyone, you dominate them. We have created a culture of violence (Israel and the Jews are the biggest players) and that Culture of Violence is eventually going to destroy humanity.
January 26, 2008 1:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Thanks for the interesting post on Gaza Victoria. I posted a piece of it on Post Global Power Barameter under the Asia's Choke Points -Malacca Straights Thread.
January 25, 2008 2:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Crisis in Gaza
Turning out the lights
With every Palestinian crisis, such as the one currently occurring in Gaza, there is a sense that neither side knows how to respond next. In the meantime, only the innocents suffer.
By Zahed Amanullah, January 23, 2008
I'm a Palestinian... get me outta here!
If the analogy of the Gaza strip as a 1.5 million capacity prison seems like hyperbole, witness the "prison break" this week of hundreds of Gaza's Palestinians into Egypt near the border town of Rafah. Residents broke through the border wall (with the aid of explosives) not to smuggle in more ammunition, but to buy "rice and sugar, milk and wheat."
With Israel's crushing two week old blockade in effect, intended to snuff out militant groups, Gazans have watched their economy crumble. Industrial stockpiles dwindled and food was in short supply. Fuel shipments were cut to Gaza’s sole power plant, leaving much of Gaza City in darkness. Reports on the ground outline relentless suffering.
It's a sign of how far things have come (or not, rather) since Israel's 2005 withdrawal from Gaza strip settlements, a withdrawal seen by Palestinians as one in name only. Israel still has control over nearly every aspect of Gazan life and has applied it mercilessly. Students destined for universities abroad have been trapped by the border closures and restrictions on travel. With the blockade, Gaza is at risk of becoming "virtually 100 percent aid dependent," according to a UNRWA representative.
For Israel, it is the barrage of Qassam rockets, deployed by the Izzedine al-Qassam Brigades, Hamas’ military wing, that underscores the entire Israeli response in Gaza (suicide bombings from there have become virtually impossible since a border wall was built around it several years ago). Over 1000 Qassams were fired in 2006 alone. Considering the restraints, they are manufactured and deployed with remarkable efficiency.
"It is the duty of all states to ensure the right to life and safety of its people, especially from vicious acts of violence and terrorism," argues Gilad Cohen, Israel's UN representive. But the Qassams are, of course, no existential threat to the Jewish state. It is only poor Sderot, a farming village barely a mile from the border of northern Gaza, that bears the brunt of the rockets (calling them missiles would be an overstatement).
To the extent that Qassams have caused death or injury there, they are indefensible. But if, as the Israelis argue, every life is precious, the grossly disproportionate body count delivered within Gaza as retaliation serves as a reminder of how quickly the argument can turn. Within the past week, over 40 people have been killed and 120 injured, most of them civilians. Targeted killings mean little when aimed within one of the most densely populated areas of the world.
"It is a message to Hamas, and hopefully the people in Gaza, who by the way elected Hamas as the government, to put pressure on that government," adds an Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman. However, when Palestinians are pushed ever further below poverty level (as over two thirds of Gazans currently are), survival is more of a priority for them rather than facing militants with guns. The response is seen, quite rightly, as collective punishment.
It should also be noted that Gazans also helped elect Hamas not to wage endless (and so far, unwinnable) war, but to save themselves from the kleptocracy of a Fatah-led government. Hamas notably rejected a referendum proposed by Fatah leader and Palestinian Authority president Mahmoud Abbas on a two-state solution based on 1967 borders (something Hamas abhors). The fact that a clear majority of Palestinians support such an outcome may have been a reason.
The truth is that Qassams are much more a political weapon than a tactical one. To the extent it serves their interests, they are overstated by Israel and understated by Hamas (to the outside world, anyway). The salvos are a reaction of emotion and spite, not practicality. Deep down, most Palestinians probably know this.
If Israel is being goaded into reinvading the territory (as some are pondering), the result could be endless misery. As with any occupation (Iraq comes to mind), Israelis need to ask themselves what could possibly be achieved. Likewise, the Qassams do little more than offer Israel valuable cover. Without the current crisis, the recent decision by Israel to expand the Har Homa/Jabal Abu Ghneim settlement south of Jerusalem by 300 units might have met with more international resistance.
Ultimately, Hamas will have to reconsider the wisdom of their current tactics. The successful liberations of recent times have not relied largely on weaponry. This is no accident. From South Africa to East Timor, there is still tremendous global inertia towards supporting self-determination. That support depends on a moral high ground, which Qassams can only continue to obscure.
For now, Israel will pull back just enough to reduce the boiling over into merely boiling. Fuel shipments to the stricken power plant have now resumed. The lights are back on, but in the scheme of things, there is still darkness. Some Israelis are imagining the crisis to be a charade created by Hamas as a provocation. This in a conflict littered with them. Irony, it seems, is not yet in short supply.
January 25, 2008 1:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
i have to admit i looked for an anon post that could have been dolivaws also-
January 25, 2008 1:03 PM | Report Offensive Comments
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/23/AR2008012303288.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
Have you read the article by David Ignatius in today’s WP?// “A Pro for the Pakistani Army? Ashfaq Kiyani May Do What Pervez Musharraf Couldn't”// Admiral William Fallon, US chief of Central Command, visited General Ashfaq Kiyani, new Pakistani Chief of Staff on Tuesday of this week. Fallon’s account of his hour-long discussion with the Pakistani general supports other recent evidence that Kiyani is a professional soldier who wants to rebuild an army whose reputation and morale were tarnished during the Musharraf years. Fallon say’s that He Kiyani will focus less on the external threat posed by India and more on the internal danger posed by extremists like al-Qaeda. "He knows that you can only do so much with military force," Fallon said. To contain an insurgency, "you need to take care of the population" through economic and social development. The danger for Kiyani is that, like Musharraf, he will be seen as so close to the United States that he will lose credibility in his own country. Fallon recognized that problem when he cautioned about unilateral American actions that undercut Pakistani sovereignty. "I suspect there's a fair amount of sensitivity to a very visible U.S. footprint inside the country," he said.
January 24, 2008 4:06 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Dolivaw,
Not only did you forget to sign off on your previous post, you also forgot to send it:) Where is it? You are not referring to your post @ January 22, 2008 3:31 PM are you? That one was signed. What did you tell us? We are dying to know!
January 24, 2008 4:01 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Rick, Victoria, Nivedita:
Forgot to sign off my name on the previous post. But then you knew it was me posting it :).
January 23, 2008 8:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Victoria is suspicious. She is afraid that the US-Israel-India alliance will gang up on the Muslims. She could be right.
January 23, 2008 4:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Is this the article that you refer to Dolivaw?
China and the US remain focused
By Jing-dong Yuan
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/JA23Ad01.html
I don’t see a reference to India-China joint military exercises. I’m afraid I missed the one that you referred to yesterday. Too bad, I would like to read it.
January 23, 2008 4:00 PM | Report Offensive Comments
the covergence of mutual interests of the israel-india alliance, i believe, cannot be overlooked.
January 23, 2008 2:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Hi Victoria,
It is real mess in Palestine, but what is new.
Thanks for the kind words Nivedita. I think Dolivaw has spent much time in the USA given his/her command of the English language and American popular phrases like “flavor of the month”.
I’m sorry to hear that Dolivaw. I was hoping that the Iran-China-Russia-India axis would team up to kick the Zionists out of Palestine and the Americans out of the Middle East where we continue to make a mockery of the principles on which our nation was founded. One can still hope.
January 23, 2008 2:37 PM | Report Offensive Comments
DOLIVAW66 and Rick: I enjoyed reading the discussion between the two of you.
Thanks DOLIVAW66 for presenting views on India and Hinduism in a truly unbiased and open way. You do well to represent the culture you belong to.
January 22, 2008 4:19 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Rick:
I dont think India is joining the Iranian-Russian-Chinese alliance. The present Govt. has decided to refine the traditional non-aligned influenced foreign policy which was characterised by pro-soviet leanings in the past to one of non-aligned with pro-american leanings. The wish to have better relations with China could be to get their approval for the Indo-US nuclear deal by the present Govt. The joint military exercises which India and China conducted recently are the current flavour of the month :). Even the US is discussing it with China. Read today's Asiatimes online website for some insightful analysis.
Everyone is tiptoeing around everyone else i.e, US, India, China, Russia, EU, Japan..the game is underway which way it will be played out is as yet unclear. There are no clear cut sets of rules just shades of grey!
January 22, 2008 3:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
i just saw a clip on the news where 100s of women from the gaza strip were desparately trying to escape gaza at the egyptian border-
60 women were shot and wounded
January 22, 2008 11:25 AM | Report Offensive Comments
In today’s NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/22/opinion/22tue1.html?hp
Yes it is boomerang time, or payback time for our present and past misdeeds in the Middle East that have enraged the Muslim world and inspires freedom fighters of all stripes to attack the USA and its interests at home and abroad. God help the poor individual or regime that is seen as a US ally on the so called “war on terror”, which is code for our uncontrollable greed to grab unlimited access to all the oil fields in the Middle East and elsewhere in the world and to provide unconditional support to our ally Israel which also relies on imports for 99% of its oil.
This is why we maintain military bases in the Gulf States including three aircraft carrier task groups in the Arabian Gulf region further inflaming the Muslim world. In his recent trip to the region, President Bush continued his lobbying efforts to persuade the Saudis and other Gulf State rulers to keep the spigots open and the cheap oil flowing. Yet he never calls on the American people to sacrifice, to conserve, or to control our gluttony for oil in any way. Like he also never asks us to sacrifice to pay increased taxes to pay for his ill advised misadventure in Iraq, which even further inflames the Muslim world.
The world is further disgusted with news reports as were provided in the NY Times from a reported who accompanied Mr. Bush on his trip of the wretched saga of Gaza children suffering from a lack of food and medicine during the Israeli blockade, blending into the wretched excess scenes of W. being festooned with rapper-level bling [elaborate, gaudy jewelry and other accouterments, and a lifestyle built around excessive spending and ostentation] from royal hosts flush with gazillions from gouging us on oil…the president and his advisers Elliott Abrams and Josh Bolten went native, lounging in floor-length, fur-lined robes…// In Abu Dhabi, Sheik Khalifa bin Zayed al-Nahyan gave the president a gigantic necklace made of gold, diamonds, rubies and emeralds, so gaudy and cumbersome that even the Secret Service agent carrying it seemed nonplussed. Here in Saudi Arabia, the king draped W. with an emerald-and-ruby necklace that could have come from Ali Baba’s cave.// Time’s Massimo Calabresi described the Kuwaiti emir’s residence where W. dined Friday as “crass class”: “Loud paintings of harems and the ruling Sabah clan hang near Louis XVI enameled clocks and candlesticks in the long hallways.”// In Abu Dhabi, the president made a less-than-rousing speech about democracy while staying in the less-than-democratic Emirates Palace hotel’s basketball-court-size Ruler’s Suite — an honor reserved for royalty and W. and denied to Elton John, who is coming later this month to play the Palace.// The president’s grandiose room included a ballroom…The $3 billion, seven-star, 84,114-square-foot pink marble hotel — said to be the most expensive ever built — would make Trump blush. It glistens with 64,000 square feet of 22-carat gold leaf, 1,000 chandeliers, 20,000 roses changed every day, 200 fountains, a dome higher than St. Peter’s, an archway larger than the Arc de Triomphe, a beach with white sand shipped in from Algeria and a private heliport. The rooms, scattered with rose petals, range from $1,598 to $12,251.
January 22, 2008 9:09 AM | Report Offensive Comments
It looks like we may be adding India to the Iran-China-Russia alliance, I mean partnership…
From Post Global:
India seeks Chinese approbation of its request for a special waiver from the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) to move ahead with its nuclear deal with the US... Beijing remains silent on the issue…Indian PM Manhoman Singh wraps up his 3-day visit to China as both countries laud their closer bilateral ties….China and Russia emphasize importance of close relationship…Space Ambitions: China says it's interested in Jupiter and that is might get in on Russian ambitions for Mars…"Soft power" is the best term to describe China's rapidly growing global political influence and deterrent power against the US...but a growing number of analysts wonder whether this non-military power is actually any "softer" in its ultimate effect than military action.
January 18, 2008 10:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Dolivaw,
It looks like India is seeking but not receiving approval from China to make a deal with the USA.
From the WAshington Post:
India seeks Chinese approbation of its request for a special waiver from the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) to move ahead with its nuclear deal with the US... Beijing remains silent on the issue
Indian PM Manhoman Singh wraps up his 3-day visit to China as both countries laud their closer bilateral ties
January 18, 2008 9:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
;)
January 18, 2008 6:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
:)
January 15, 2008 4:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Dolivaw and Victoria
Yes, I read that article first thing this morning and was going to send you the link. You beat me to it. It is very interesting and timely giving the upcoming elections; since ISI is accused of manipulating the last election – conveniently dropping corruption charges for those politicians who support Musharraf.
Yes, the practice of supporting “freedom fighters” against the USSR in Afghanistan (USA), against India in Kashmir (Pakistan), and then supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan (Pakistan) is coming home to roost. Now we can’t control them and we have been attacked in New York and Washington by Al Qaeda, and Pakistan is being attacked by a witch’s brew of several different groups including Al Qaeda. Some of these groups were formally on our payroll and are now in opposition that we are trying to rein them in.
You are right Victoria, Musharraf has shown before that he is not above using the ISI to gain or maintain power. The USA is throwing cold water on this theory of course, but that does not mean that it is not true. Just because we are paranoid doesn’t mean that they are not out to get us:)
January 15, 2008 1:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
pakistani newspapers and blogs are all pretty much in agreement that musharraf supplied the weapons to the rebels in the red mosque through the ISI-
the red mosque is about 1 mile from an ISI headquarters and it just not physically possible to have gotten the weapons past them -
this article may play for americans who have no real interest or background knowledge of the incident-
but is clearly an attmept by musharraf and his cohorts to waylay the very loud and very public criticism of the ISI by the familair claims of, infiltration of "extremists"
as always, one asks in any tragic event-
who stands to benefit?
nusharraf unquestionably benefitted greatly politically from this incident internationlally and domestically.
January 15, 2008 11:45 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Rick:
Check out the article
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/15/world/asia/15isi.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
Sort of vindicates what the Indian Establishment has been saying all along..Pakistan's fight against terrorism is just a front and the blow back may consume the country or may weaken it severely.
A prospect that is very welcome from many in India, because the mindset of Pakistani establishment is still to destabilize India even if the Kashmir issue is solved to Pakistan's satisfaction.
January 15, 2008 7:44 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Today’s Post Global GPB
http://www.secure-x-001.net/SecureGeo/Issue/SecureObservationComments.asp
And the topic of discussion is...
“Will Bush rescue the Annapolis accord as he visits the Middle East for essentially the first time?”
And the answer provided by the author is...
No Annapolis rescue...just another photo op to enable radical Islamists.
“Most analysts believe President Bush won't start crafting constructive policies now, in his last year, when he has had no vision for the region for 7 years. What most thought leaders are asking is whether the President has any real priority beyond an attempt to reach for some type of better legacy than he has now. Few believe he does and that will make it difficult for this trip to achieve much if anything other than photo ops. Unfortunately, it provides the opportunity for US opponents, particularly radical Islamists, to achieve much as they direct anger and rage toward the most unpopular US President in memory.”
I concur. Ata boy W!
January 11, 2008 1:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Thanks Victoria,
The link is not working on my computer at work. I'll try it again when I get home.
Here's one for you:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/09/AR2008010903400_pf.html
Taliban Commander Emerges As Pakistan's 'Biggest Problem'
Radical Accused in Bhutto's Death Has Quickly Gathered Power
By Imtiaz Ali and Craig Whitlock
Washington Post Foreign Service
Thursday, January 10, 2008; A17
PESHAWAR, Pakistan, Jan. 9 -- Even as his reputation has grown more menacing and his militia more powerful, the Taliban commander accused of ordering the death of Benazir Bhutto has shrouded himself in mystery.
January 10, 2008 3:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
hi rick, i dont know if youd find this interesting or not-
its on the erosion of our freedom of speech
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/248.html
January 10, 2008 11:13 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Dolivaw,
Thanks for another great news source. Yup:
“Those in the political establishment and outside who are stridently pushing the deal may be a varied lot but share one common trait: None had advocated or desired that India go overtly nuclear…”
Beware this crowd. Don’t let the US trick you into giving up your nuclear option while the US and Israel keep ours. I would like to see every one ban nuclear weapons, but what is fair for one is fair for all. The US has demonstrated in Iraq and Palestine that we certainly don’t hold the moral high ground.
The reason for going nuclear is that it is a relatively cheap deterrent not only for other nuclear adversaries, but also for those with overwhelming conventional military might like the US and soon to be like China.
I didn’t realize that India is so concerned about China.
“No government leader has claimed, or can assert, that the country today can effectively deter China, its primary challenge…”
I thought that Pakistan was your primary challenge.
“Nothing better illustrates this danger than New Delhi’s own action in pulling the wool over public eyes by denying the Chinese demolition of the Indian forward posts, lest questions be asked at home as to what it has done in response to the provocation. It even goes to the extent of needlessly downplaying the increasing cross-border Chinese military incursions…”
Amazing, we never hear this in the mainstream media.
“A decade after declaring itself a nuclear-weapons state, India’s primary focus today is more on buying high-priced conventional weapons from overseas (reflected in its emergence as a top arms importer in the world) than on plugging gaps in its deterrence. Consequently, India’s goal of erecting a credible and survivable nuclear deterrent, as the private intelligence service Stratfor put it, is at least a decade away…”
January 7, 2008 6:19 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Victoria,
Dolivaw for R. Daneel Olivaw :) and Olivia as in Olivia D'Haviland the actress :). Enjoyed all his books including his biography I,Asimov.
Cheers
January 7, 2008 1:35 PM | Report Offensive Comments
hi all- doliviaw- i spent half of my wasted youth with my nose buried in asimovs books- (also his pulp magazines)
i dont remember who doliviaw is-
i googled but couldnt find it-i havent a clue who dolivia is-
im equally clueless about stars in america tho-
whos dolivaw? just curious
January 7, 2008 10:25 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Rick:
Asiatimes online is indeed a very good source of news and analysis. Refreshing change from mainstream news reporting. Their correspondent for Pakistan is one of the best and seems to have good sources of news both in official Pakistani as well as in the 'Jihadi/Taliban' circles.
Do read an article on Indo-Nuclear deal in the Asianage by Brahma Chellaney and why a lot of people in India are opposing it. www.asianage.com.
January 7, 2008 4:16 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Dolivaw,
Whew! Indian politics is much more complicated than ours it seems. Maybe it’s just because I live every day with ours. Thanks for your efforts to sort it out for us. From what I see your very tolerant Hindu philosophy is very admirable indeed and much preferable to our Judeo-Christian based society. Your caste system though seems to be not so great, but perhaps that will change with time. Or maybe it is not as bad as it seems to the outsider.
Today, America is much more religious than the more secular European societies, and I think we pay a great price for that. For the past thirteen years or so we have been easily duped and led astray by the right religious wing nuts that have had way too much influence. Maybe this will be the year that we banish them back to the wilderness for another 40 years. I certainly hope so.
Thank you for your posts.
January 6, 2008 5:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Victoria,Rick :
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Opinion/Columnists/Swaminathan_A_Aiyar/My_murders_are_better_than_yours/articleshow/2677642.cms
Excellent article..
We are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars..
January 6, 2008 3:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Hinduzionkafir,
I think that you have misunderstood me. I think MikeB may have said that India’s mistreatment of Muslims and Christians is the root cause of Islamic extremism and terrorism. But not me, please point to some statement in my posts that suggests that.
I think that Islamic extremism and suicide bombers were invented in Egypt in March 1928 when the charismatic preacher Hassan al-Banna founded the Muslim Brotherhood with six employees of the Suez Canal Company.
Please see this link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/05/books/chapters/1st-chapter-jihad-and-jew-hatred.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print
January 5, 2008
First Chapter
‘Jihad and Jew-Hatred’
By MATTHIAS KÜNTZEL
The Muslim Brotherhood and Palestine
January 6, 2008 12:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Victoria,
Not to nitpick but its Dolivaw and not Dolivia :). I prefer a logical robot courtesy Isaac Asimov to an actress :).
Cheers
January 6, 2008 7:26 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Rick, Victoria,
Gujarat, Godhra
Yes it is proven that the fire couldnot have been started from the outside. Forensic report etc. However, 60 litres of fuel is estimated to have caused the destruction that it did. SIT (Special Investigation Team) of Gujarat Police headed by Rakesh Asthana and his team have deposed before the Nanavati commission that it was a pre-planned conspiracy.
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/1599-hindus-started-it-muslims-took-climax.html
(There are other articles which provide both points of view ..a search on google will yield them..)
Check out the article. Yes, much to think about, the role of karsevaks etc. There are two theories out: One it was an accident, the other by the SIT that it was pre-planned. As with everything in India, this has been politicized by pro and anti hindutva camps and the media is playing its part in keeping its TRP ratings high :). Hence, the truth if it was truly an accident or a conspiracy will never be known.
As to 2000 muslims being killed, that is a number which has been debated..as the number is closer to 900 muslims and about 200 or so hindus. Not to be flippant about it, but accuracy in the media and the lack of judging the post-godhra riots without reference to the original incident or even a reference to it, is bothersome.
As in Gulf War I, these riots were the first TV riots so to say in India. I believe the anti-sikh riots of 1984 were far worse (not to belittle the horrendousness of it) as they affected multiple cities in India. Possibly, we didnt have private media channels then and hence information could be managed better.
RSS and Mahatma Gandhi
Nathuram Godse the killer of Bapu was earlier a member of RSS, but had moved on to the Hindu Mahasabha. A common mistake made by many writers over the years. In fact, in the movie Gandhi, they showed a supposedly Hindu leader with flowing hair and beard (an allusion to the then head of RSS Golwalkar) as nodding to N Godse as he walks to assassinate Gandhiji. That scene is a figment of someone's fertile imagination. At the trial, his defence testimony was censored and not made public for a good many years. (see the link for an English translation of his defence testimony... http://ngodse.tripod.com/defense.htm ).
Apparently, the authorities thought if the public heard it, it would trigger sympathy for him and the reasons why he killed Gandhiji. N Godse was a Maharashtrian Brahmin from Pune and after the killing, Brahmins in Maharashtra had their houses torched. Hindu Mahasabha was founded by V D Savarkar and he advocated that hindu youths should undertake science and technology studies, eat meat and do away with supersitions. For him, the entire subcontinent was mother a more nationalist than religious minded. He had suffered at the hands of British in Andaman cellular jail. The cellular jail operated by the British in pre-independence India was extremely harsh and it took a lot to survive it. He is again a figure to be either eulogised or held in contempt depending on which side of the political debate one is in India. There is evidence to suggest that he may have ultimately collaborated with the British to gain his independence.
RSS was born in Nagpur in 1925 as Rick has suggested. As the only country with majority Hindu population (Ok Nepal is one too)there is a need for such an organization. It encompasses many spheres and has given birth to BJP and its predecessor the Jana Sangh on the political side. Has both male and female wings. Has a cadre of dedicated people who work in all parts of India to counter Christian Missionaries and their insidious activities in rural and tribal areas. And are usually involved in relief activities during natural disasters: floods, earthquakes, Tsunami. Not a religious organization per se. VHP is an offshoot of the RSS as is the Bajrang Dal. They organize evening play time for young hindu kids..shakhas as they are known. In the 70s and 80s before internet :), they were fairly popular. With globalization and the like, they probably dont get as many young recruits as before. They are like an uncle or aunt you dont want to know, but privately admire for their stand. Are they in tune with the times, hmmm good question. They were born at a time when India and the world was pretty different. The biggest event is the annual address by the RSS Chief in Nagpur during the festival of Dussehra or as its known Vijayadashmi. A sort of state of the nation address. Vijaydashmi ..the day when Lord Ram finally vanquished Ravana. Nationalistic and for them a Hindu is for whom India is a mother..Bharat Mata.
As to HRW being neutral hmmmm.. i dont know. I tried searching for any statements or press releases from HRW on the issue of Taslima Nasreen and the rioting by Muslims in Kolkata and earlier attack on her in Hyderabad. Nada..didnt find anything on the HRW website. No statement calling on the Govt of India to provide her with protection. In case of speech made by Narendra Modi during campaigning, the HRW was quick enough to come out with a statement. Leads one to conclude there are double standards operating here.
In India secularism is given a bad name and has come to meant the following:
1. If you are anti-Hindu you are secular
2. Minorities are inherently secular, only hindus are communal. Go figure!
3. Minority institutions can operate the way they want. No Govt. oversight on admissions etc
4. Their religious practices controlled by them, but for Hindus the state govts. control the temples (especially in south)
5. The Govt. of India has a practice of subsidizing the Hajj pilgrimage for Muslims. A rather twisted definition of secularism.
6. Talk of single unified civil code for all Indians, is immediately met with ..Hindu agenda and Fascism. No debate is possible.
Regarding the recent violence in Orissa, it has more to do with reservations i.e., affirmative actions given a communal colour. Read a report on www.ibnlive.com. Converting to christianity and then claiming same privileges as backward Hindus takes the cake! Convert in the name of equality and to escape the curse of caste and then ask for the same privileges after conversion.
As to Benazir Bhutto in relation to India. please read the latest article by Francois Gautier on Rediff.com. Many in India didnt have any illusions about her.
Cheers
January 6, 2008 7:11 AM | Report Offensive Comments
rick meet hinduzionkafir aka kafir mainly on eboo patels threads onfaith
he doesnt believe im an american or a woman, but thinks im a mullah from pakistan with a long grey beard
charming, aint he?
January 6, 2008 3:42 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Mike B, Rick Jones and others:
You seem to think that somehow Islamic terrorism is a new phenomenon. The truth is that Islam has been terrorising infidels since its creation. Muhammed himself murdered hundreds of innocents (google Banu Qurayza) and raped many women.
Blaming India for Islamic terrorism is perhaps the most, for lack of a better word, retarded statement I have heard. How about you answer the question as to how Islam is in India in the first place? Let me give you some insight. Islamic invaders plundered and destroyed cities in their paths and killed Hindus in numbers that make the holocaust pale in comparison. And they are still doing so. Muslims deserve everything they get. I hope you learne more.
January 6, 2008 2:01 AM | Report Offensive Comments
rick- its a deep history-
i knew i shouldnt have given wikipedia as a source- it was late and i was tired-
go to either link- south asia on asia news-
or the indiantogether at 1:34am on 1-5
search rss- then make up your own mind-
i already have my opinions about hinduvta
even dolivia called rss right wing-
i had a few articles to link- but for some reason im not able to link tonight- (my husbands downloading all sorts of stuff)
but its better if you search yourself anyway
peace!
January 6, 2008 1:28 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Victoria,
Here is the quote from the Wikipedia reference that you gave me that led me to say that RSS was formed to combat Muslim riots:
“In 1925, Dr. Keshav Baliram Hedgewar, a Nagpur doctor influenced by recent Hindu-Muslim riots in his town, formed the Rashtriya Swayemsevak Sangh aiming to protect Hindus by organizing together…”
Here is the quote that says they are not separatist or nationalist. Actually they are opposed to separatists and nationalists:
“With regards to claims of having an anti-Muslim stance, RSS spokesperson Ram Madhav has stated that such claims are a "distortion of RSS ideology". He asserts that the RSS "believes in the oneness of our culture and the country" and that "any opposition to this view could lead to disintegration as it in fact happened with the Partition. This accent against divisiveness should therefore not be seen as hatred towards any particular religion…
Vincent Kundukulam, a Christian priest at St. Joseph Pontifical Seminary in Aluva, Kerala, has written a Ph.D thesis in Sorbonne University, Paris, France, that claims RSS to be neither nationalist nor fascist. He states that that RSS cannot be considered as a nationalist organisation in the sense in which the term 'nationalism' is generally interpreted in India. He points out that Indian nationalism and religion are mutually exclusive. Since RSS's primary loyalty is to the Hindus, it can't be called 'nationalist'. He also argues against branding the RSS ideology as "Fascism", "Nazism", "Fundamentalism" and "Communalism". He said the terms fascism, Nazism, and fundamentalism are much abused terms in India. They have a different connotation and meaning in the European context that don't apply to an Indian sociopolitical context. He argues that since communalism is not a part of religion, RSS can be called "communal" only in a limited way…”
So it looks to me like they are only guilty of trying to preserve their Hindu way of life, an admirable quality I think.
I agree with your concern about the contest over Jammu and Kashmir of course, since the contestants are nuclear armed. But I think they are not crazy. I think we should be more concerned about nukes getting into the hands of the Taliban and al Qaeda in NW Pakistan.
January 5, 2008 2:54 PM | Report Offensive Comments
the BJP sprang from the RSS- its really far right wing, and only made a statement last year disassociatng itself from the caste system- that article i linked is a film made about the treatment of dalits(untouchables) by the RSS(BJP)
(o btw- the RSS wasnt formed to conuteract muslim riots- but as a spearatist and hindu nationalist movement) not sure were you got that
the muslim brotherhood sprang up as a reaction against exactly those leaders who embraced zionisim-
actually, theyre both kind of separatist, isolationist, and extreme far right orgs- begun at the same time
although as the BJP - the RSS is trying to soften its image for the west
i also dont know why dolivia tinks the BJP is rejecting the indo-us nuke deal- they are the ones who made it-
egyptian politics?
im not getting into that
but the BJP/RSS are relevant now as a political force that is polarized against the muslims to the north-
since they both have nuclear capacity-
and are still fighting over a tiny plot of land i kashmir-
it needs to be takne seriously
January 5, 2008 1:16 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Here is an interesting article in today’s NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/05/books/chapters/1st-chapter-jihad-and-jew-hatred.html?_r=1&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print
January 5, 2008
First Chapter
‘Jihad and Jew-Hatred’
By MATTHIAS KÜNTZEL
The Muslim Brotherhood and Palestine
January 5, 2008 11:30 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Victoria,
Thanks for the reference on RSS. That was very interesting. I’ve been wondering what the RSS is.
It looks like it is a force in preserving the Hindu religion and way of life. They are supporters of the BJP political party. It was formed in 1925 to protect Hindus from Muslim rioters. It was active in Hindu relief activities during the partition and maintained an “anti-Islamic banner”. It has an estimated 4.5 million active members. They feel that the Hindu tradition is being marginalized by nationalism in India. It feels that Islam threatens the fabric of Hindu philosophy, which is religious tolerance. They believe that India’s Muslims are converts through force of “circumstances”, and would convert back to Hindu given better “circumstances”. They are tolerant of all religions, but they are opposed to anything that divides the nation as indeed happened with the partition. They are opposed to the caste system. They are opposed to Islamic Fundamentalism and Islamist terrorism. They side with Israel in their dispute with Palestinians. They have been called fascist but this does not seem to fit. They are accused of organizing and equipping the rioters that killed 2,000 Muslims across the state following the railway coach burning in Gujarat in 2002.
I looked for a Dolivaw reference to RSS and couldn’t find it. But now I see why you were taking him to task if he said anything positive about RSS. Actually, at the risk of getting on your bad side, I must admit that the organization seems to have many admirable qualities; e.g. charitable relief to the poor and oppressed, opposition to the caste system, preserving the Hindu way of life. I oppose their siding with the Israelis against the Palestinians. But the religious tolerance of Hinduism seems to be far superior to either Christianity, Judaism or Islam:)
January 5, 2008 9:51 AM | Report Offensive Comments
the question that basically always pops up in cases of man made tragedies is always the same-
"who stands to benefit?"
January 5, 2008 1:51 AM | Report Offensive Comments