Readers’ Responses to Our Question (78)

PG,

How about a new question. This one never had any meat on it's bones to begin with. Thanks.

This will put American Afffair on more isolation front.If a great nation like America can move on the past prejudice to denounce a close friend act a criminal act then what will be faith of America.other hand may be in retaliation Turkey passed the resolution regarding American invasion on Iraq as illegal,geonocide,crusdeetc.other hand in my opinion it is jsut a threat from America to stopt turkey to slide in lap of Iran and middles east outcry against israel and America.

Ipersonally hold all representives accountable for mess we are in how do you sleep at night can you look your family in the eye.Do the right thing before it to late you brought us down bring us back up !!!!!!

Didn't Noam Chomsky address this in a book prior to the US invading Iraq?

The US politicos have said that invading Iraq was about WMDs.

They swore it wasn't about the pilferring of Iraqi natural resources. Whilst a wink about protecting America's national interests.

Then they played the underlying card of 'We are invading Iraq because the region needs to be stablized'.

The Cancer is spreading ~ who is going to stop this from going further?

"are we simply hypocritical and selective in what we dare call a genocide."-AMVienna

BINGO!

Calmation & Vic van Meter: I do not believe that anyone claims perfection. However, I do observe that only Turks claim to be not guilty. Either case, what Turks think of their history is irrelevant. What is relevant is whether we (the US) are sufficiently honest to call a genocide 'genocide', or are we simply hypocritical and selective in what we dare call a genocide.

Quote VAn Meter: Does Turkey (and thus EVERY nation) look back at our displays of cultural crime and exclaim shock, or do we realize our nature and let history be history and not current policy?

Of course we have all comitted genocides of one kind or another and all have dirty hands as such. So who are we to condemn the Turks and why just the Turks, why not an all encompassing protest of all the genocides that have been perpertuated by all peoples? Are we singling out the Turks because of their religion? I think so. It also leaves many of us feeling very depressed to realize that America run by Democrats will not be a better place.

Is it just me or can just about any culture look far back enough in history to remember a genocide or two?

I was just thinking about this now, what with everyone tossing back and forth genocide accusations (mostly true). I suppose it might be hard for most people to admit, but the action of recognizing and condemning genocide is disciplinary. Our instinct and nature is to kill everyone of whatever culture we feel threatened by.

I mean, up until maybe a hundred years ago (depending on where you live) genocide was just a political recourse. Turkey's case is nothing new. I don't think we even have to catalogue how murderous we are by figuring out which mass killings are genocide and which are simply mass murders. Truth be told, every nation I've heard of seems to have blood on its hands somewhere.

I suppose this question posed looks at another question about what we define as our moral principle. Screw Turkey and the Armenians and think all through history. Do we, as human beings, look back through our history and declare how terrible we were and are? Or do we simply faze it with time into the past and take the point as understood. I suppose this is the crux of the issue. Does Turkey (and thus EVERY nation) look back at our displays of cultural crime and exclaim shock, or do we realize our nature and let history be history and not current policy?

Ever regret something in your life? Do you look back at it and say that the past is the past? Or do you feel ashamed and vow repeatedly to never repeat the same mistake?

Not really talking about the political point, just more of a personal thing. Congress isn't going to be taken seriously no matter what it does.

MIKEB: My response was specifically to the question posed here. As far as India's role in Burma is considered, I condemn my country's steely silence on the recent brutal crackdown by Myanmar's military on peacefully protesting monks. I strongly believe that India as the largest functional democracy should have supported the restoration of democracy in Burma which only till recently - 1937 - was an integral part of the Indian mainland. Whatever arguments our diplomats have on their plates to profer - natural gas, etc. etc. - I sincerely belive that a politically stable state - a democratic country - is a much better business destination than a military ruled nation.

I also belive that the entire world needs to unite on this issue - may be under the UN flag - and ensure the ouster of the illegal dictators and restore Aung San Suu Kyi as Myanmar's legal head of state. The US and India could play pivotal role here and prevent China and Russia from exercising their veto power in the UN's initiative in this regard.

Some have asked about the timing of the U.S. House Foreign Affairs Committee resolution, "why now?" Apparently it is a Democrat priority, and that party newly has the reins in Congress. The timing illustrates the folly of legislative incursion into Foreign Policy.

But there's never a GOOD time to take a principled stand that's going to make an ally mad, make him face up to a real problem about which he's in denial. Probably only bad times and worse times. Unfortunately for us, now is a worse time. But U.S. has not made that principled stand in better times; the bad news hasn't improved with age.

Why am I writing about this? I recognized I was having a knee-jerk response to the U.S. House Committee resolution, and sought out some facts on which to base an opinon. I remembered reading of Hitler's question re: who remembers the Armenians, and realized, "Not me." I was gap-filling.

So, I picked up on the adverse and highly emotional Turkish reaction to the House Foreign Affairs Committee vote (27-21) approving a non-binding resolution. The resolution "says the deportation of nearly 2 million Armenians from the Ottoman Empire between 1915 and 1923, resulting in the deaths of 1.5 million of them, amounted to 'genocide.' " http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/10/us.turkey.armenians/index.html The CNN.com article is quite good.

The topic of the Armenian Genocide is relevant because:

(1) Acknowledgement of any genocide sets the precedent that genocide anywhere elses will be recognized and not suffered quietly. That it is long past does not make its silent acceptance, acceptable.

(2) "good relations with Turkey are vital because 70 percent of the air cargo intended for U.S. forces in Iraq and 30 percent of the fuel consumed by those forces flies through Turkey." Id.

Turkey is a pro-Western democracy in the Middle East, one of only three real democracies there -- Israel and Iran being the other two, (admittedly both are substantially theocratic democracies). ( Okay, Iraq may be a nacent democracy.)

Turkey is moving toward military incursion into Northern Iraq, (where the U.S. is the Occupying Power), to hunt Turko-Kurdish separatist paramilitary forces that Turkey claims harbor there). That is potentially a much bigger problem for U.S. than the over-flight and shipping-through rights.

(3) The Armenian genocide is only one manifestation of a policy and mindset that in some measure continues today. It is not merely in the past. Turko-Kurdish unrest, and separatist militancy, is exacerbated by historically heavy-handed Turkish repression of the Kurdish minority's self-identification as Kurdish, of their use of the Kurdish language in public, prohibition of their teaching Kurdish children in the Kurdish language, etc. Turkish government and cultural practice has been to deny the existence of Kurds as a non-Turkic ethnic minority in the country, describing them as "mountain Turks."

The basic issue is Turkish ethnic-nationality as the political foundation of the State of Turkey; that continues to manifest itself in lack of minority rights, etc.

(Ethnic-nationality as a political foundation of the State is not unique to Turkey. Nations large and small suffer the same problem: China, Russia, Thailand, even Japan (though less violently), notoriously suppress and derogate ethnic minorities. The United States, the only nation founded on an idea, still struggles with ethnic tensions and to maintain minority rights, though it does so openly, and therefore more successfully.)

World acknowledgment of the massacre of the Armenians as a Genocide would bring that fundamental fact of Turkish existence into the open, for public discussion, condemnation, and change. Denial that the massacre amounted to genocide means never having to accept responsibility for the fundamental agreement of the Turkish people with Turkic ethnic supremacy over, and repression of, ethnic minorities in Turkey. "Identifying Armenian killings as genocide is considered an insult against Turkish identity, a crime under Article 301 of the Turkish penal code." (NYTimes article, link below).

Turkey would like to avoid having to confront its own genocide issue at home.

However, resolution of Turkic ethno-supremacy, and thus recognition of minority rights in Turkey, could dry up the seed-bed for Turko-Kurd conflict, and eliminate a huge problem for Turkey, and a potentially big problem for us, and for Iraq in future days. It would also ease Turkey's way into NATO.

I think the CNN.com article (link above) is better, but here are also some pertinent excerpts from the NY Times Europe edition story on the matter a few days back. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/europe/12turkey.html?ref=europe

Some have asked about the timing of the U.S. House Foreign Affairs Committee resolution, "why now?" Apparently it is a Democrat priority, and that party newly has the reins in Congress. The timing illustrates the folly of legislative incursion into Foreign Policy.

But there's never a GOOD time to take a principled stand that's going to make an ally mad, make him face up to a real problem about which he's in denial. Probably only bad times and worse times. Unfortunately for us, now is a worse time. But U.S. has not made that principled stand in better times; the bad news hasn't improved with age.

Why am I writing about this? I recognized I was having a knee-jerk response to the U.S. House Committee resolution, and sought out some facts on which to base an opinon. I remembered reading of Hitler's question re: who remembers the Armenians, and realized, "Not me." I was gap-filling.

So, I picked up on the adverse and highly emotional Turkish reaction to the House Foreign Affairs Committee vote (27-21) approving a non-binding resolution. The resolution "says the deportation of nearly 2 million Armenians from the Ottoman Empire between 1915 and 1923, resulting in the deaths of 1.5 million of them, amounted to 'genocide.' " http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/10/us.turkey.armenians/index.html The CNN.com article is quite good.

The topic of the Armenian Genocide is relevant because:

(1) Acknowledgement of any genocide sets the precedent that genocide anywhere elses will be recognized and not suffered quietly. That it is long past does not make its silent acceptance, acceptable.

(2) "good relations with Turkey are vital because 70 percent of the air cargo intended for U.S. forces in Iraq and 30 percent of the fuel consumed by those forces flies through Turkey." Id.

Turkey is a pro-Western democracy in the Middle East, one of only three real democracies there -- Israel and Iran being the other two, (admittedly both are substantially theocratic democracies). ( Okay, Iraq may be a nacent democracy.)

Turkey is moving toward military incursion into Northern Iraq, (where the U.S. is the Occupying Power), to hunt Turko-Kurdish separatist paramilitary forces that Turkey claims harbor there). That is potentially a much bigger problem for U.S. than the over-flight and shipping-through rights.

(3) The Armenian genocide is only one manifestation of a policy and mindset that in some measure continues today. It is not merely in the past. Turko-Kurdish unrest, and separatist militancy, is exacerbated by historically heavy-handed Turkish repression of the Kurdish minority's self-identification as Kurdish, of their use of the Kurdish language in public, prohibition of their teaching Kurdish children in the Kurdish language, etc. Turkish government and cultural practice has been to deny the existence of Kurds as a non-Turkic ethnic minority in the country, describing them as "mountain Turks."

The basic issue is Turkish ethnic-nationality as the political foundation of the State of Turkey; that continues to manifest itself in lack of minority rights, etc.

(Ethnic-nationality as a political foundation of the State is not unique to Turkey. Nations large and small suffer the same problem: China, Russia, Thailand, even Japan (though less violently), notoriously suppress and derogate ethnic minorities. The United States, the only nation founded on an idea, still struggles with ethnic tensions and to maintain minority rights, though it does so openly, and therefore more successfully.)

World acknowledgment of the massacre of the Armenians as a Genocide would bring that fundamental fact of Turkish existence into the open, for public discussion, condemnation, and change. Denial that the massacre amounted to genocide means never having to accept responsibility for the fundamental agreement of the Turkish people with Turkic ethnic supremacy over, and repression of, ethnic minorities in Turkey. "Identifying Armenian killings as genocide is considered an insult against Turkish identity, a crime under Article 301 of the Turkish penal code." (NYTimes article, link below).

Turkey would like to avoid having to confront its own genocide issue at home.

However, resolution of Turkic ethno-supremacy, and thus recognition of minority rights in Turkey, could dry up the seed-bed for Turko-Kurd conflict, and eliminate a huge problem for Turkey, and a potentially big problem for us, and for Iraq in future days. It would also ease Turkey's way into NATO.

I think the CNN.com article (link above) is better, but here are also some pertinent excerpts from the NY Times Europe edition story on the matter a few days back. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/europe/12turkey.html?ref=europe

American Atomic-Genocide of the People of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, August, 1945http://www.intellnet.org/resources/american_terrorism/Atomicvictims.html

I would welcome the move. So that the savage holocausts pepetrated by the Americans are duly recognised at some point. The annihilation of the entire populations of the land now called America has only a parallel in Australia. The greatest European trade for more than 3 centuries had been the trade in humans. Killing over 20 million people and abducting 60 million from their African homes to build America.
These savage holocausts beg for recognition and reparations.
The British killed over a million Indians in ten years following the 1857 revolt. THis genocide must not go unrecognised too.
Iqbal, India

I would welcome the move. So that the savage holocausts pepetrated by the Americans are duly recognised at some point. The annihilation of the entire populations of the land now called America has only a parallel in Australia. The greatest European trade for more than 3 centuries had been the trade in humans. Killing over 20 million people and abducting 60 million from their African homes to build America.
These savage holocausts beg for recognition and reparations.
The British killed over a million Indians in ten years following the 1857 revolt. THis genocide must not go unrecognised too.
Iqbal, India

I would welcome the move. So that the savage holocausts pepetrated by the Americans are duly recognised at some point. The annihilation of the entire populations of the land now called America has only a parallel in Australia. The greatest European trade for more than 3 centuries had been the trade in humans. Killing over 20 million people and abducting 60 million from their African homes to build America.
These savage holocausts beg for recognition and reparations.
The British killed over a million Indians in ten years following the 1857 revolt. THis genocide must not go unrecognised too.
Iqbal, India

Hello World folks!

Why this planet earth has had quite a few of the very worst human-crimes as: mass-murdering, massacres, genocides in several continents, spreading from all world corners as: asia, europe, east europe, middle east, to american continent! Many many genocides have known and recorded! While misters Allah, Jesus Christ, Budha, and all the alikes could only prove to themselves and all mankind as the so-called the "n'existe plus!" (means no longer exist in English)!

Who on earth can believe that the so-called: "God" (if exists? in term of human self-misconcepted) can help this sinful and treacherous and murderous human being?
While these human-being folks or human-erectuses are definitely in love with their everyday treachery-of-all-sorts and murdering-of-all-sorts and born-to-count-money-and-enjoy-sex-and-lie-only mostly! and only very few of them are living like saints or angels in this filthy and odorous world! (i.e., few are good and too many are bad as proven)
It is quite funny, while seeing Billions of world folks have pointed their asses relentlessly and arrogantly into the blue sky to pray their god everyday!!! but funnily, while this world can only have only one-way to head into its own destiny is the destination of destructions-of-all-sorts and murdering-of-all-sorts and lying-of-all-sorts each others as all seen in the world corners everyday!
Sad! sad! sad! for this rotten world! that we all have to live in and smell this bad-smell alltogether!
It seems to be that this sinful world can only be taught by few asteroids heading in from the heaven as did before to cleanup this dirty world!

For sure! This world citizens do need to come back to live with their valuable conscience that has been lost for a long time ago!

Thanks

conscience-to-the-world

If you are seeking the truth, you can start with the more recent events in Azerbaijan's Karabagh where so called "Armenian Victims" have slaughtered many innocent Azerbaijani Turks simply because of their ethnicity. Today, you can check the map of Azerbaijan and see that ~20% of its territory is occupied by the Karabagh rebels backed by Armenia. Please note that these are not simplistic moves and politics behind these maneuverings go well beyond Turkey and Armenia. To learn more about the truth on this topic, please refer to the following URL addresses:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D_iMpJLfYo
http://www.khojaly.net/

{please note that the photos and videos posted in these sites display extremely unpleasant "human" brutality:(}

Peace, equality, and freedom for all mankind ...

Conscience-to-the world,

Turkey has been founded in 1923,so,how can you blame Turkey for 1915.
If you have *conscience*,why do you escape to study and search *what happened during WWI* by bilateral historians committee.

JhutchIII,

You are either both *Judge* and *Witness*.Is this your *justice*.Shall you not listen *other side* ?

Theater of armenian diaspora has *three stages*
1-Recognition 2-Compensation 3-Territorial claims from Turkey.

Hello World!

In this case, it is so simple to make a correct conclusion, even millions with their biased minds could react fooly agains you as by following the truthful and scientific format/procedure as suggested below:

No any early "PRO" or "CON"! no any early "CONDONE" or "CONDEMN"! or fallen into a naive "BEING BIASED FOR PERSONAL REASONS" should occupy a person who starts to make a judgement like in this case!. But when a "conclusion" or a "judgement" or a "comdemn" or "condone" issue can be made, it should be based absolutely scientifically and truthfuly and unbiasedly! then you with your clear and unbiased mind just feel free to go ahead and sticking with your faithful CONSCIENCE to judge a fact, a real problem, a crime, a world mistake, or a human sin, a mass-murdering, a genocide, etc., and you can immediately and comfortably conclude clearly and precisely as that it is Right or Wrong!. In other words, this is simply a pure, scientific way for judging anything properly, such as a problem or fact without making human dumb mistake at all! and you also should forget all sorts of "crying fooled" that may be on your way! to cheer you! or even ripping you aparts! by human behaviour as usual!

For simplity, the answer as "YES" or "No" to the question: "The U.S Congress is going to pass one of those resolutions condemning another country for its pasts: this time, Turkey for Armenian massacres" that it can be frankly and correctly to answer as:

1/ During the past, if Turkey did commit its world criminal as massacred en-mass Armenians or genocide, then Turkey must be treated as the criminal state as the answer is: "YES" for complying with the world conscience and world justices and laws and orders! and it is absolutely fair to all!

2/ Otherwise, if Turkey didn't commit a such very serious human crime as massacre or mass-murdering or genocide then no one has any reason to condemn Turkey at all! and it is damned fair to all as well!
And that's all! and it's 100% fair to all concerned folks! as Turkey and Armenia and all these folks!
Pls. do not condone crimes of any reasons! and all judgements must be fair and frank and scientifically and all concerned folks must behave as civilized, unbiased citizens and nations no matter what!
In addition, and importantly, no one have enough times to think back and forth for a fact or world problem! such as with this issue! due to this world has many more bigger problems and are much much more urgent! as world problems than this one!

Make senses? world folks? Also, pls do simplify thing(s)or problem (s) more than making a thing, subject, a problem, etc., to become too complicated to solve and lose too much efforts as it should not be! while it or they canbe solved wisely and simply as it or they should!

Thanks

conscience-to-the-world

P.S: REMEMBER! TO MAKE A PROPER JUDGEMENT! IT MUST BE WELL THOUGHT, WELL UN-BIASD! WELL TRUTHFUL! WELL SCIENTIFICALLY, AND COMPLY WITH CONSCIENCE AND FAIRNESS AT ALL TIMES! THAT'S THE WAY IT SHOULD BE!

Posted by: conscience-to-the-world

BobL

Oh, I couldn't agree with you more. That is the way the election SHOULD go, but the Repubs have reason to be optimistic - well as much as can be expected anyway.

Hillary is perceived as cold and calculating (which is a positive on the Van Meter scale) and she has the highest negative ratings for any candidate. Giuliani is charismatic (although he looks like a mafioso figure) and has a positive record in New York. He is decisive whereas Hillary has flip flopped on Iraq.

Democratic Congressional policy and strategy has been all over the map (failed basically) and is reflected in their negative ratings which are lower than Bush's.

There is still a long ways to go and the economy could tank as the housing market is grim with a poor outlook in the short term (a definite Godsend for the Dems). The negative impact of Iraq could be erased or softened if conditions continue to improve but is a nail in the Republican Presidential coffin if the situation does not improve or gets worse. Outside factors could influence the election such as terrorism which works to the advantage of Republicans.

Regardless, Clinton has very smartly positioned herself as the most conservative Democratic candidate seeking the independents you are talking about. She has an experienced staff.

It will be interesting. I wonder who I'll vote for. Oh, the decisions.

To all:

For simplity, the answer as "YES" or "No" to the question:"The U.S Congress is going to pass one of those resolytions condemning another country for its pasts: this time, Turkey for Armenian massacres can be frankly and correctly to answer as:

1/ If during the past, Turkey committed the world criminal as massacres en mass Armenians then Turkey must be treated as the criminal state as the answer is: "YES" for complying with the world conscience and world justices and laws and orders!
otherwise, if Turkey didn't commit a very serious human crime as massacre then no one has any reason to condemn Turkey! That all and fair to all Turkey and Armenia and all these folks!
Pls. do not condonne crimes of any reasons! and all must be fair and frank and must behave as civilized citizens and nations no matter what! and more over, no one have enoght times to think back and forth due to this world has many more urgent problems than this one!

Make senses world folks?

Thanks

Turkey’s self‐serving offer to commission a joint study is absurd, especially considering that it is a crime for Turkish scholars to even speak about the Genocide.

Ankara is using this tactic to attempt to delay or derail the rising international tide of Genocide recognition.

This is akin to Iran’s recent Holocaust denial conference, a thinly veiled effort to advance a hateful agenda by opening for “debate” a long‐established historical fact.

Armenia, which is on record with its willingness to normalize ties without preconditions, answered Turkey by publicly inviting it to drop its objections to normal relations and discuss this matter in a bilateral context.

In October 2007 the International Association of Genocide Scholars wrote: “It is disingenuous of the government of Turkey to use the red herring of a ‘historians commission,’ half of whose members would be appointed by the Turkish government, to ‘study’ the facts of what occurred in 1915. . . [T]he historical record on the Armenian Genocide is unambiguous. . . A ‘commission of historians’ would only serve the interests of Turkish genocide deniers.”

Vic van Meter - And, this would be the same Hillay that is part owner of a company that provides outsourcing services, the same Hillary that wants to increase the number of H1-B visas at a time when 20% of our engineers and software workers are unemployed, the same Hillary so wedded to globalization that she had been called "The Senator From India" in a recent visit to that country? This is the same radical feminst nutcase quoted in two new biographies as hating men? My suspicion is that blue dog Democrats and every male with his privates still under his control will flee from the Democratic Party if Ms. Clinton is the nominee. I certainly will.

As for what this has to do with the Middle East, Ms. Clinton has been cozying up to the Jewish vote in New York, some of them genuine nut cases. No one knows if this is simply more of her craven posturing for votes and she will dump that position as easily as she does eery other position she has ever held. What I do know is, she will follow the Middle Eastern model. If ever there has been a petty dictator wannbee, it's Hillary Clinton.

Anybody but Clinton in '08

Democrats versus Republicans... Would you like to have a slimeball politician that will make cold, calculated decisions to move us towards the top and take, as an exchange, infidelities and some moral case studies? Or would you rather have someone who will vote based on their own moral, religious, and antiquated beliefs which ruin our standing worldwide and make us the world's bullseye?

There are two choices. We can go the way of Europe or of the Middle East. Do we want dirty and effective career scumsuckers in office or blind, deaf, and dumb crusaders? Given that model, I'd rather go with choice one. I mean, every now and then, you'll get a media firestorm over some sex scandal or another (usually get glossed over for Democrats though because, let's be honest, there's no news that Democratic lawmakers are sometimes dishonest) or a pardon of some kind, but we always get what we need and seem to come out ahead. I'd rather have a rotten, dirty, double-speaking Democrat in office. The slimier the better, in this case.

Hillary in '08!

Tom Wonacott,

The only thing that is going to be close in the 2008 elections is how many republicans will have to close down their offices in Washington and go home. While a republican might not be an endangered species after 2008 they will certainly be on the EPA's watch list.

The group that put Bush in office has felt utterly betrayed by him. This group isn't the Christian Right (they'll pretty much vote for any republican because they have an intelligence problem) It isn't the conservative movement in the US as there isn"t enough of them to put a republican in office. No, the group is the Independents. They put Bush in office and every poll out there shows this group would rather have spikes driven through their feet then vote for another republican. Add to this group the polarizing effect has had on democrats and the republicans can forget about cross over democratic votes. I don't ecpect very many republican cross over votes, but I do sense a feeling of futility in my republican friends about voting at all in the next election. They, as I, are expecting the republicans to take a beating.

Don't worry, if history has taught us anything it is politics goes in cycles and after the dems abuse the process we'll go back to the repubs. Even the pains of what has turned out to be torturous presidency (pun intended) will diminish over the years. After all. we elected repubs after Nixon turned out to be a crook. We'll elect repubs again, but you can go to the bank on the fact it won't be 2008, 10 or 12. The intense displeasure with GW and his legacy will have to wane first.

It is quite unfortunate that the US Congress, led by the Democratic Party, is pursuing this resolution; and coincidentally, at a time when they are calling for the withdrawal of our troops from Iraq. This is the epitome of playing politics. By approving the Armenian resolution, the democrats can possibly accomplish one of their main objectives; bringing troops home. The democrats know full well that Turkey is going to be displeased, to say the least, and one of their stated retaliatory actions will be to withdraw our access to Incirlik Air Base, in southeastern Turkey. The great bulk of the supplies and other necessities to fight the war in Iraq go through this vital air base and by losing access to it, the democrats know full well that it will be quite difficult to resupply our troops, and thus, drawing down our troops could begin. And to their great pleasure, it will have been caused by an outside force, the government of Turkey. Never mind that the democrats directly hastened this retaliatory action by voting on a poorly timed resolution. They will have accomplished one of, if not their main, objective and escape culpability. It is a shame, though, that they did not take into account the fact that they will be depriving our own troops of the very equipment they need to survive. This is politics at its worst.

Victoria

The Iran issue is potentially the most dangerous on earth and continues to escalate as Iran comes closer to acquiring the ability to develop nuclear weapons. France and Germany are now aligning with the US, while Russia is protecting her interest. Russia's role is the most interesting since what Putin says in public may be entirely different than what he tells Ahmadinejad in private.

The attack by Israel on the Syrian facilities is no small hint to Iran. The world regularly condemns Israel but not this time, and that is very significant also. I have no clue what will happen in the long run, but Russian influence is probably the key.

Victoria, given Bush's popularity in the polls, there is only one organization in the world that is capable of looking so incompetent that there is still a significant chance that the White House could be won by a Republican in 2008, and that's the Democrats.

Considering the national debt, way too much (Republican) spending when the Republicans controlled Congress, an unpopular war in Iraq, a multitude of corruption charges and to top it off, a pro life candidate as the probable nominee and the Democrats should control all fifty states in 2008, but the Dems have been working overtime to make this a close race...

Anyway, thanks for the post.

The question precisely posted by Mr. Fareed Zakaria is that either US trying to correct the history or unneccessary meddling with an issue with its close ally.

My opinion is that US congress is unnecssarily involving itself with the issues which may be sensitive for a close long term ally of US.

The question is why now ?

Honestly speaking I find no reason that why US is creating more and more controversies in the region.

US presense in this region is from the cold war days. However for last ten years the region is witnessing prime presense of US forces. US interests in the region now more visible than pacific and central europe.

US considers most of its enemies present in this region only and where US forces are physically fighting with the adverseries. So at that moment maintaining and holding good relations with existing and old freinds is a logical requirement.

At the moment when russia is back in game and Iran is in defiance mood , situation in Afghanistan is not under control and Iraq becoming a nightmare any other front how small it may be will be considered as unnecessary.

tom you were right, it looks like the dems are backing off of this resolution

kudos to your punditry

mr asta made a good point in that the motives of the dems may have been to stick it to the bushies -

but even though bush looked into putins eyes, and saw a good soul and man- yesterday putin stood with ahmadenijad nd excalined that all of the neighbors of russia on the caspian sea were their firends.
the US was casting about for a replacement strategic base, and azerbaijian was looking pretty good -

today- bush- that genius of the subtleties of foreign relations, gave the dalai lama the first interview and a gold medal too-

the chinese werent so very thrilled with this

and in another peace pursuant and brilliant move- bush made a speech today in which he declared that an attack on israel is an attack on america, and he even used the words WW3

lets hope cooler heads prevail and can reign that cowboy in before he blows us all up

i mean, and even tom might agree here-
if you were bush, and the dems are backing down- wouldnt you use this opportunity to trumpet the dem failure in foreign policy acumen instead of posturing and locking and loading?

he seems to be a marvel of misspent opportunities
(look at the world supprt after 911, who could have blown that all way? only dubya)

sorry- getting off topic
the difference of a day in american politics is like a lifetime though

and all of this snowballing from the 100 year old toothless resolution

First of all i want to Thank all of you who supported and Voted the Armenian Genocide
Resolution to pass... And this message below Goes to those that oppose the Resolution... clearly the actions taken by Turkey shows how scared and guilty they are...
Why is American Government so hung up , saying we need Turkey a key ally of NATO, because 70% of military cargo is shipped from there easy access strategically located and its a crucial time and will mess thing up in Middle east right now? Well Middle east and Iraq is already messed up, and if your worried about strategic location; if America recognizes Armenian Genocide, we will be a step forward to getting our LANDS back and then you'll have a better strategic position by a nation thats not going to bully you around and make you pay million dollars a day for using their Air base. And Plus Almost ever nation in Middle East Hate Turkey!!! I wonder why??? Turkey is good at Barking Like a dirty desperate Dogs, Just like when they threatened France when they Recognized the Armenian Genocide in 2001, and look at them now, total forgotten what treats they made against France, They will bark and bark and then after forget short memory Cowards, thats why they wont recognize , because they don't remember lol... Wake up and smell the Coffee Mr.Bush , Rice , CNN etc; We are Losing in Iraq, Afghanistan , So Turkey two face traders is Helping with the terror worth crap, There just using playing us,part of there PLAN? ...
Turks have been Keeping this a secret and always finding excuses, How long can you hide the truth ,its going to come out sooner or later, either you like it or not...
The truth has come out and nothing can stop it now...
For those who is saying " It's not the right time"...can anyone tell me when is the right time for recognizing the truth about 1.5 million brutally raped, tortured, massacred? Isn't 92 years of indifference and denying enough?
Let our dead rest in peace recognizing their sufferings...

The Armenian debate
The following countries have passed, at varying levels of legislature, motions to declare the 1915-17 mass killings in Armenia as "genocide":
Chile passed a Senate Resolution in 2007.

Argentina passed a law in 2006.

Lithuania passed an Assembly Resolution in 2005.

Slovakia passed a National Assembly Resolution in 2004.

Canada passed a House of Commons Resolution in 2004.

Switzerland passed a National Council Resolution in 2003.

France passed a law in 2001.

Greece passed a Parliament Resolution in 1996 establishing a day of the commemoration of the genocide.

European Parliament passed a Parliament Resolution in 1987.

Cyprus passed a House of Representatives Resolution in 1982.

Source: National Academy of Science of the Republic of Armenia, The Armenian Genocide Museum-Institute

I think the more important question is Why Armenians, Greeks and some few Kurds stillhold grudge against Turks at this moment of history ? If you can give the answer to that question you'll understand why Armenians still trying to get Turks down.

If you know a little bit about Middle East region and have been reading and watching the developments of the last several hundred years, you'll easily notice that grudges are held for so long. The Middle Eastern mind set is not as rational as the Western mindset. Pride, self importance, prestige is much more important than welfare, peace and etc, especially for illiterate parts of the population.In some of these countries you can even get beaten or killed just because you didn't let the other car pass on a junction. If you think this is a joke, then I'll send you many newspaper headlines about this, but you need to be able to understand the language.

This situation is getting better with education and eventhough Islam suggests to be kind to all other humanbeings, this is the situation. One can also say most mediterranean countries have a similar situation including Italy,Spain, Portugal evcenthough these countries are richer and have relatively better education systems. People are quick tempered and can hold grudges longer.

So the answer lies in between somewhere, I mean most Greeks accuse Turks to be the only reason that they are not a big country now, they don't own parts of Anatolia that they used to have, especially Istanbul. Armenians blame Turks for their current situation as if everybody else in that region have a prosporeous life and some few Kurds, I say few Kurds because as you know Kurds share the same religion,to a greater extent same language and same history with Turks, they lived together in the last 1000 years and many Kurdish descendant became prime minister or predisent in Turkey. So only few separatist Kurds blame Turks as the sole reason that they don't have a state of their own regardless of the impact of other Arabic states, Iran and Syria in that matter. Turkey is the best target for these groups, because it's not like Iran,Syria nor Russia who are not listening to anyone in the world except themselves. Turkey is trying to find a delicate balance between Islam and secularism, Turkey is trying to find a delicate balance between West and East, Turkey is trying to find a delicate balance between the imperial past where it could dictate much of it's will and now operating in a global world where there is a need for consensus in many things.

That's the reason, Armenians and some others can intimidate Turks this much, because these people(Turks) are trying to do some good stuff. What if Turkey becomes a dictatorship, who would listen to Armenia ? Turkey needs help in her quest to West not bashing like this.

Many people understand this in western countries and do whatever they can to help Turkey, but some don't get this. They hold this grudge against Turks for their imperial history, like Armenians and Greeks. Lately Greece understood that it's not a good way to hold grudges against Turks and many things can be solved inside EU and they started showing friendship. If anybody knows Turks since they are an eastern minded country with a target to go to west would know that Turks don't bend down with power, this is a prideful nation. Armenian diaspora is not helping anyone and they are actually destroying the current ties between Turkey and Armenia. Armenia is one of the poorest country in the region and Turkey could help it a lot if there weren't these problems.

But again Armenians are Armenians and they don't have rational minds, grudge is grudge and it had to be taken from Turks at all costs. The eastern mindset again. :(

Many historians say that the events took place between 1915 to 1918 cannot be called as "genocide" as there were the Armenian militia fighting together with Russians and attacking Turks. So why can't we find a middle way in between these 2 countries to settle up their disputes but instead trying to make the problem worse by taking these claims to the senate, voting it. Are all senators historians ? If one day Turks prove that it was not a genocide wouldn't you be ashamed of what you have voted and accepted ?

Besides when you interfere in relations between 2 groups for the favor of one than you make them more aggressive and they don't want to talk and agree upon any issue, you spoil them. For the last 10 years Turkish government repeatedly has called Armenians to form a joint committee to examine the events and Armenians said "NO", well why would they say yes ??? While they can get many countries" support to claim it a "genocide". Even if they already know it was not a "genocide" because this interference of other countries now it's too late for them to go back and revisit their intentions, acts.

Ottoman Empire was in a war and lost many more people than what Armenians lost even in that region and also to some extent they were killed by Armenians. So how can you call this a "genocide" making it a same thing that happened in WW2 in Germany. I'm adding Bernard Lewis' thoughts around this issue to the bottom so you can see the same thinking there as well.

One another point is unfortunately as far as there are some big countries using these minorities( you need to know some more history to understand how Armenians were used and how Kurds are used at the moment by big powers) they will behave like childs. In WW2 25 M Russians died and I don't see any Russian complaining about this, because if you go to war you either expect to kill or die, than you don't complain about the enemy unless they killed you with some banned weapons. But these small ethnic groups, they like to have their own states and in the time of imperial collapsing they have a dream of getting their own states, some gets it, some don't, and if they don't then instead of thinking what went wrong they start whining like kids, but nobody asks them how many people they killed, what were they doing together with Russians and backstabbing Turks. What should have Turks done ? Give their land to Armenians without fighting ? If you know guerrilla terrorists a little bit you would know that they are hiding behind the innocent people, they shoot and when you search for them they go inside innocent people's houses, so can someone pls tell me how can you fight against these people ?? Think about the war timeframe and these militias, some fight with you face to face and some just behind the innocent people, somebody need to take the innocent people out of the way and that's what Ottoman's tried to do but they couldn't do it successfully and many people died unfortunately while they were deported from the country. Again ottoman was collapsing and they didn't have necessary means to accomplish the tasks in a better way, but this cannot be called genocide. If Ottomans wanted to kill all Armenians they could have done it hundreds of years ago and much easier. Turks never killed women, kids and elderly people. They only fought against people who fought against them. Turks are a prideful nation and they are prideful about their army and their way of fighting and it's first of all forbidden and unethical for Turks to kill any women, kids and elderly.

If Turks wanted to exterminate a nation they could have done much earlier, if they had done that for example there wouldn't be Greeks today, there wouldn't be Serbs today, there wouldn't be Armenians today. They didn't do this.

Turks have saved Jewish from Spain in 1492 and had always a religious and ethnical tolerance. I'm not saying this alone, you can read this in many history books, so one becomes curious why then Armenians.

The answer is again same, it was just a fight in between 2 groups but not a genocide.

Here is what Bernard Lewis thinks :

Statement of Professor Bernard Lewis
Princeton University
Distinguishing Armenian Case from Holocaust
April 14, 2002
C-SPAN2
www.bookstv.org
Question: “The British press reported in 1997 that your views on the killing of one million
Armenians by the Turks in 1915 did not amount to genocide and in this report in the Independent
of London, says that a French court fined you one frank in damages after you said there was no
genocide. This obviously triggered a debate in Israel where this quoted article (Moderator cuts
in and asks him to ask his question as their running out of time). My question is, sir, have your
views changed on this whether the killing of one million Armenians amounts to genocide and
your views on this judgment?”
Bernard Lewis responds: “This is a question of definition and nowadays the word "genocide"
is used very loosely even in cases where no bloodshed is involved at all and I can understand the
annoyance of those who feel refused. But in this particular case, the point that was being made
was that the massacre of the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire was the same as what happened
to Jews in Nazi Germany and that is a downright falsehood. What happened to the Armenians
was the result of a massive Armenian armed rebellion against the Turks, which began even
before war broke out, and continued on a larger scale.
Great numbers of Armenians, including members of the armed forces, deserted, crossed the
frontier and joined the Russian forces invading Turkey. Armenian rebels actually seized the city
of Van and held it for a while intending to hand it over to the invaders. There was guerilla
warfare all over Anatolia. And it is what we nowadays call the National Movement of Armenians
Against Turkey. The Turks certainly resorted to very ferocious methods in repelling it.
There is clear evidence of a decision by the Turkish Government, to deport the Armenian
population from the sensitive areas. Which meant naturally the whole of Anatolia. Not including
the Arab provinces which were then still part of the Ottoman Empire. There is no evidence of a
decision to massacre. On the contrary, there is considerable evidence of attempt to prevent it,
which were not very successful. Yes there were tremendous massacres, the numbers are very
uncertain but a million nay may well be likely.
The massacres were carried out by irregulars, by local villagers responding to what had been
done to them and in number of other ways. But to make this, a parallel with the holocaust in
Germany, you would have to assume the Jews of Germany had been engaged in an armed
rebellion against the German state, collaborating with the allies against Germany. That in the
deportation order the cities of Hamburg and Berlin were exempted, persons in the employment
of state were exempted, and the deportation only applied to the Jews of Germany proper, so that
when they got to Poland they were welcomed and sheltered by the Polish Jews. This seems to me
a rather absurd parallel.”

Christ, people, grow up!

The Armenians and Turkish grudge is all theirs to have and bicker with however they want. Neither Armenia or Turkey really care that much what America thinks. Or, at least, they ought not to. We're guilty of a great, big genocidal program ourselves. We paid restitution. We got over it. Today, I can already name at least one ex-girlfriend of mine who was at least fifty percent Cherokee, and we certainly didn't spend much time discussing the historical bloodbath.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that people in OTHER countries care more about what happened in our country post-colonialism than the Native Americans and European decendents themselves are. Why? Because we had time to heal and, quite frankly, we didn't even have grandparents old enough to remember what happened that early. Give it enough time. Eventually, both countries will remember that the mutual dislike of America can unite the world. They may even make a podcast about it.

I mean, Germany admitted to genocide. Doesn't mean Volkswagen, BMW, or Mercedes-Benz disappeared. They do a killer business anywhere in the world. I mean, come on, H&K are making a ton of our guns now! We're sharing our best market with the people whose government admitted genocide.

Why? Because we forgave them. The Germans aren't their grandparents and their grandparents probably weren't the ones gassing Jews anyway. We grow up and get over it all.

In time, things will get sorted out. They'll never forget, but they'll forgive. And above it all, the Turks and Armenians will deal with it themselves.

In the meantime, hopefully the American Congress can sit this issue on the table for a while and let it go. It's not like anyone's going to listen to some resolution the American government passes. Most of you would probably shrug ME off for being American, let alone the government that we don't like to begin with.

Until we can get some credibility again, nobody cares what the American government says. We're a world away from this issue and, truth be told, one way or another I'm going to be waking up to another lousy day of studio work tomorrow. If tomorrow Congress calls this a genocide, I'll probably not know about it until I get the time to read the paper. It's not exactly going to impact my day. So can we possibly shelf this little history lesson for a time when I'm NOT more worried about health care and other domestic issues?

I'm sure the genocide of the Armenian people isn't going anywhere in the next five years. If the Turks and Armenians don't sort it out by then, we'll have all kinds of time to define it as whatever we feel like.

Who knows, maybe by then someone will care what we say.

Anju Chandel, New Delhi, India - That's right. Let's not do anything to upset all of that money being made by India. And, before you trash the U.S. for it's admittedly stupid invasion of Iraq (but one based on reports of WMD's), I want to know how India justifies selling attack helicopters, guns and ammunition, land mines, and poison gas to Burma? This ain't innocent "free enterprise, you know, those weapons are used to murder tens of thousands of innocent people. So, pray tell, what IS India's excuse? Profit before human lives doesn't cut it!

In an already disintegrating world, it is absolutely absurd to rake up an issue which has very less importance in the current times but has very high potential to divide it further.

The US could have been a bit more imaginative in its head rather than having this idiotic idea of coming out with some ridiculously irrelevant resolution.

How about passing of a resolution by the US Congress, condemning its own continuing role in the destruction of a country - Iraq - to start with? Then, may be, continue with condemning all its past atrocities on the humanity - one by one?

It is Wrong to call it a Genocide

"So if the aim was to get to the bottom of the historical truth, to understand what had happened and how it had happened, to set the historical record straight despite all sorts of obfuscation and denial on the part of official historians – if that was the aim, then that aim is now far removed. That is a shame." THANK YOU. That's the main point.

Kurds already publicly announce that they want southeastern part of Turkey along with Northern Iraq. In the past two months killed 30 Turkish soldiers. Should Turkey just sit there and do NOTHING!!! Iraqi President and Vice President have already visited Turkey and there is nothing happening. Head of PKK Mr. Karayilan (which means black snake by the way ) is still not been jailed by the Iraq'i authorities. He sits there and gives AlJazeera interviews. Unbelieveable!!!

Turkey opened the national archieves for international hitorians to review. Nobody is taking Turkey up on that to bring this mess to an end still use it to play POLITICAL GAMES!!! Armenia was invited but refused to delagate historians to review the FACTS!!!

Yes Armenians died but, so did Turks.. during and after WWI a huge empire collapsed... so where is Turkish Genocide BILL.

halozee- what in the wide wide world of sports does my bloodline have to do with anyhting?
besides, ihave alot more irish than french in me-
im an american mongrel-

ummm- well 99% of the population of turkey consider themsleves muslim-

so by that contention i guess the former presidnets were muslim -

but no- the former government of turkey was an extreme secualr version that actually disallowed freedom of religious expression. run by the military.

so, even if they were technically muslims- no- politically they were military secualarists

the difference is that the prime minister and president who was just voted in on july 22nd are OBSERVANT muslims and have loosened the restrictions on religious expression

which is a very good thing

tom- as of tuesday the house dems state they are proceeding with the resolution-
time will tell i guess

o, and sorry i couldnt get back on saturday to the bosnian post- i get easily sidetracked as you see and have been pressed for time- but i havent forgotten

interestingly enough- as the USA casts about for a new place to base their supply lines, putin met with ahmadenijad yesterday where he pointedly declared that all of the caspian sea neighbors are under the protection of his government-
which seems like a pretty straightforward message to america not to be looking at azerbaijian as an alternative.

actually one of the recent presidents of turkey was a KURD.
and the PKK, the kurdish terrorist group has killed 30,000 turks in the last several years.

are you saying along with america, that the turks dont have the right to across THEIR OWN BORDER after the terrorists (by USA definition) who have been killing their civilians?

thats 10 times the amount of people lost on 911!

The iraqis and kurds in north iraq dont even agree with you.

an interesting note on the subject is that the PKK is armend with the m-16-

an american made weapon

also the turks have allowed 70% of the supplies into iraq flow through incirlik- which is now under consideration of being closed-
also prompting the world market to price oil at 87 dollars a barrel - so the effects of this are more far reaching than "turks are bad people".

do people here think that kurds and armenians are the same people?

Kurds in Armenia
See also: Kurdish-Armenian relations
Between the 1930s and 1980s, Armenia was a part of the Soviet Union, within which Kurds, like other ethnic groups, had the status of a protected minority. Armenian Kurds were permitted their own state-sponsored newspaper, radio broadcasts and cultural events. During the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, many non-Yazidi Kurds were forced to leave their homes. Following the end of the Soviet Union, Kurds in Armenia were stripped of their cultural privileges and most fled to Russia or Western Europe.[85]

the kurds have been shoved around and disposessed for a looong time

personally, i hope they can manage to get their hands on the great oil reserves in kurdistan, and dont get tricked by USA business dealings to steal it

however, i dont hold out much hope for that

as a beleauguered people, my sympathies tend to lean towards the kurds- but i have to be consistent in my condemnation of terrorists-

as im called upon constantly to denounce muslim terrorists- i also have to condemn kurdish terorrists-

and if the turkish government with the coopperation of the iraqi and kurdistan government want to be able to pursue the PKK terrorsits across their own border- it seems like it isnot the business of america or americans to decide their won policies for them.

Well, the penny has dropped and the Turkish government has given the okay to their military to invade Iraq and slaughter god only knows how many tens of thousands of Kurd's and take over those oil fields - which has been their intention all along. In the meantime, some blathering idiot of the American politcal chattering class will justify it as being in our national interests and the swine from Turkey on this forum will likely claim that the Kurd's were in cahoots with the Russian's. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that a thuggish culture, one of the most racist and demeaning collection of evil ever in one place, an entire country that make Osama Bin Laudoin and the Taliban look like a collection boy scouts, has announced it's intentions to massacure another minority people and the world doesn't appear to be prepared to do one thing. If we sit by, history will judge this as the worst mistake the west has ever made. If Turkey crosses that border, it ought to be wiped off the map.

Keerkor,Vartanian,Arshaloz,Zodic and Tom Wonacott,
Armenian Diaspora,

You are doing *manipulation*.
You are doing *wrong*.

Date 1915,Ottoman Empire was at war with Russia during WWI.Armenians were fighting within Russian Army against Ottoman and *armenian armed gangs* were helping Russia.

Many Ottoman peasents and villigers had been murdered by *armenian armed gangs* as well.
Tragedy was NOT *unilateral*,but *mutual*

Let me ask you a little question.All Christians celebrate December 25 as the birth date of Jesus,but only armenians celebrate on January 6.
Do you the reason ? Because,armenians know everything wrong.

VICTORIA,
Dear Frenchwoman who born in USA and living,at this moment,in Hamasistan.

You say *the Turkish People chose another muslim to be their president*
Were not the former Presidents of Turkey *muslim* ?

Victoria

“…because any action against a muslim is an action against terror as all muslims are clearly terrorists (in the under-developed american intellect)…”

That statement is nothing more than playing the “bigotry card”. If anything the US is extremely tolerant toward Islam while the intolerance of Islam has been recorded all over the world. I could give you many examples from Islamic countries starting with the Saudis and, of course, my favorite, the Taliban - the radical Islamist dream society.

“…TURKS CLAIM THE ARMENIANS WERE TREASONOUS IN THEIR ALLIANCE WITH RUSSIA
ARMENIANS CLAIM THE TURKS RUTHLESSLY MASSACRED AN INNOCENT POPULATION

it is likely that the truth lies somewhere in between…”

"...But historians argue over the extent to which Turkish policy towards Armenians during that period was motivated by wartime conditions..."

"...it is worth noting that most of the conditions of genocide are not met in the armenian situation..."

The truth lies in the deaths (believed to be as high as 1.5 million) caused by the systematic removal of a population of people (including mass murder) by the Turkish authorities - regardless of the war. You have no problem referring to the killing of Bosnian Muslims as “genocide” (and I agree) even though the Bosnian Serbs were also at war (and were certainly motivated by wartime conditions).

You did a good job in your first post:

“…In May 1915, the Armenian minority, two or three million strong, was forcefully deported and marched from the Anatolian borders towards Syria and Mesopotamia (now Iraq). Many died en route and numerous eyewitnesses reported massacres by Turkish forces. Atrocities against Armenians continued until the Ottoman empire collapsed after the war…”

The systematic removal of the Armenians reminds me all too much of the Bosnian genocide by the Serbs. The whole idea of mass, systematic ethnic cleansing and murder becomes much easier when the ENTIRE Armenian population is believed to be “allied with the Russians“. The Muslim civilians killed by the Serbs were certainly aligned with the Muslim separatist but is that any justification (what so ever) for the mass killing?

"...the resolution proposed by congress has no real meaning to the world- but it is a clear message to muslims everywhere-..."

Really? What is that message? Is there something about the truth that bothers Muslims everywhere? Should we bury Muslim atrocities because they're Muslim?

Don't worry, Victoria, the resolution will fail because the Democrats are already backtracking (something they do quite well) on the issue because they (suddenly) realize that our alliance with Turkey is more important(today)than the designation of "genocide" for an event that happened nearly 100 years ago.

Pages of, blah blah blah.. It seems like each individual here tries to rewrite the history.. during the end of, WWI, War of Independence for Turkey.. It is a war, and Armenians were with the enemy! Millions and millions Turks have also died.. Plz let all rest in peace, and pray for them, without asking for an another war. Live the history aside.

To Victoria :

Yes you are right and here is a link to his "hidden"( by Armenians) reports :

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/1923Manifesto-FULLrecord.htm

also for some more information about one of the biggest lies of the century you can check :

www.ermenisorunu.gen.tr , there is an English section as well.

One last comment, looks like Kurds are now trying to get US and Turkey head to head by whining about Turkish intentions to attack Kurdish terrorists that are hiding in Northern Iraq, they are called as PKK and they are different than Barzani's "pesmerges'. Problem is neither US nor Barzani is doing much about them while they also don't allowe Turkey to do anything, in the last 30 days these terrorists killed 15 civilians just by stopping a midibus, taking everyone out and killing them on the spot plus 15 soldiers a week after. So Turkish intention to go and find the terrorists in Northern Iraq has nothing to do with Armenian resolution thing. They are completely separate issues. Just fyi.

"Who is Katchaznouni?

Hovannes Katchaznouni is the first prime-minister of the Armenian state founded in July 1918. He was in power as the head of government until August 1919, for thirteen months. He was among the founders of the Dashnagzoutiun Party and one of its top leaders. He was the prime authority of Armenia and the Dashnagzoutiun Party.

Katchaznouni voices a self-criticism of the past in this conference report. This self-criticism is actually a confession. Katchaznouni honestly and sincerely resolves that the Dashnagzoutiun Party is responsible for the past agonies. He concludes, at the end of the report, that the Dashnagzoutiun Party should dissolve itself and leave the political arena. His last words are significant: “Yes, I propose suicide, the party should commit suicide,” he says.

Katchaznouni publishes his report very urgently, that same year. The title he uses once more emphasizes his proposal of suicide: “Dashnagzoutiun Has Nothing to do Anymore”

Katchaznouni omitted some three or four pages concerning his proposals about the inner organizational issues of the party when he first published this report as a book. However, he included in the book a letter he wrote to a fellow party member who had criticized his report in his letter.

The book published in Armenian was translated into Russian four years later and and an edition of only 2000 copies was published in Tbilisi in 1927 as a significant warning or lesson. The Russian edition included an introduction in Russian. [1]

The English edition of the book was was published in 1955 with the title The Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnagsoution) Has Nothing To Do Any More by the “Armenian Information Service” in New York. However, this was an abridged edition.

What is interesting but what seems natural when the content of the book is taken into consideration, is the fact that this historical report by the first Armenian prime minister was banned in Armenia. It is also a fact that all the copies were collected from the libraries in Europe by Dashnags. All the copies in all the languages were collected from European libraries. The book is included in the catalogues but no copies can be found in the racks." *

*Taken from the www.tallarmeniantale.com web site.

PG

The massacre of the Armenians by the Young Turks is the second most studied “genocide” in history. Only the genocide of the Jews in WWII has been studied more. The evidence supports the assertion that the slaughter of the Armenians constitutes genocide as defined by the UN, despite the denial by the government of Turkey. To date, twenty two countries and numerous human rights organizations and advocates have officially recognized the 1-1.5 million deaths as “genocide”.

Although the "designation" seems simple enough, political reality suggests otherwise. The timing of the actions taken by the US Congress could not be worse since Turkey is a key ally in the “war on terror“, allows the use of Turkish territory to resupply American forces in Iraq, and has shown great restraint from retaliating against the PKK, a Kurdish terrorist organization, which has found a sanctuary in northern Iraq from which to attack the Turks. The issue of the PKK is particularly sensitive since a Turkish military incursion into northern Iraq has potentially broad regional implications. Bush is vehemently against the Congressional action.

For the Turkish government’s part, they have threatened the US and Israel with political repercussions like refusing to allow the US to resupply through Turkey. The Turks (a key Israeli ally) have threatened retaliation against Israel because the Jewish Anti Defamation League (ADL) supports the American Congressional action, so this is a way for Turkey to pressure Israel to pressure the ADL and the US. Israel does not want to offend an important ally and has historically supported forming an independent commission to study the Armenian massacre so it doesn't have to take a stand on the issue (ironically enough). One such example of Turkish-Israeli cooperation was the recent bombing of the alleged Syrian nuclear facility in which Israel used Turkish airspace to stage the successful raid.

There is obviously a lot of intense politics resonating from this seemingly simple legislation to designate (rightfully) a wrong committed by Turkey nearly 100 years ago. So the answer to the PG question is yes on both accounts, however, in this case, in my opinion, modern political consideration supersedes the historical humanitarian consideration. Congress should shelve the issue for now.

To all:

As usual, we all know this world is full with nations that commonly have bad reputations in all sorts of from "very" to "serious" and "less serious" crimes of all sorts!
Genocides can be found in the entire human history for so many and can take days to read them all!
Numerous nations have committed themselves in of sorts of criminal activities from domestically (such as: Khmer Rouges in Cambodia trained and supported by red China) to internationally (such as: Russia, etc.,) or on both (such as: red China) as all known! In other words, Genocides therefore are also included in the "world recipes", even that look odorous and filthy and too much to bear but human-beings are quite been familiarized with!

No matter how world people have to cry fooled and condemn it but the world genocides have been invented by human-beings with the assisting of human sins and hatred, and therefore they have always well found places in the world history to stay!

The good thing now is as how the world populace can find ways to stop the genocides to show up again? ssuch as a last global genocide as the third world war! and that is more important and more urgent than to sit and put the blames on others! and can only do very little!
In other words, the world should spend more time to embrace human-conscience into each individual of the entire mankind as that can be said as the job-one to all! beside the money-counting task of all human-being wwho are so dedicated to it than anything else!

Thanks,

conscience-to-the-world

Ahhh, the nonbinding recognition of genocide. Tastes like politics to me! Then again, I'm a cynical man. American government can make an American a very mistrusting individual.

The whole idea of petty bashing each others' countries through these resolutions is largely symbolic. I mean, I hate bringing it up in these words, but this fight is for recognition of the killings with America (because, obviously, America is the foremost authority on peaceful relations) between Armenians and the nation of Turkey. Honestly, I don't feel any differently about it today than I did a year ago.

The irony of the fight being so vocal when America comes to deciding what to call this particular flavor of killings is more than a little amusing. Though I have to admit, if anyone's going to know whether this was a mass genocide, an ethnic cleansing, a true war, a skirmish, a conflict, or just your average everyday police action, it's best to ask the people who know the flavors pretty well.

And when we say it's genocide, well then, WE know what we're talking about! So of course Turkey wants to sweep it under the rug.

Then again, this would be like when you're talking to a friend helping you with a homework project with and, randomly in the middle of the proceedings, you look at him and say, "But you know what you did to Heather a few years ago was pretty messed up. I'm just saying..." And then you go back to work.

I'm just pointing out tha