Thanks for the post. Hope you had some quality time away from school over vacation.
"...Ahmed Rashid, a rabidly anti Musharraf/Military journalist, has an excellent book called the Taliban that discusses this aspect..."
I read the book and found it to be extremely difficult to get through, but in the same respect, full of really good regional information. Mr. Rashid has amazing experience in that part of the world.
At any rate, thanks for the discussion, and hope to see your post in the future.
There is still time left for us.
Please for God ,s sake donot go into the vagaries of who did wrong for whom.Have mercy for the poor irrespective of their religion,whose children roam around naked searching for life in garbage and dust bins.We are a poor nations .Donot make mockery of poor. They want two square meals a day.It is a sin to divide the poor and innocent on the religious lines.Love is the greatest force in the world.It demolishes all the barriers of hatred and religions,for which you require a very enlightened leadership which we simlply lack for several hundred of years.Had we got one, we would have lived like brothers and sisters and lovers.The subcontinent was singularly unlucky not to have leaders who could unite but we had enough who led us to hell and ignorance because we were one WHO QUALIFIED FOR IT.Western nations have reached the pinnacle of supremacy,because they were lucky to have hard working ,honest leadreship from George Washington to Lincoln even Clinton,but what we had ,we had detached leadership engaged in stealing million of rupees .Those who do good for the people are just proclaimed as tyrants.People as a whole are stupid and know not who are good for them.A time has come for the supreme leadreship in the subcontinent to emerge,who would be just,kind and loving to all like the father is to his sons.Like the sun shine dispells darkness so would the miseries of people of subcontinent perish when a moment comes when we get down togather to live peacefully with sympathy and consideration for each other.It is sad to see our people steeped in ignorance and petty issues of ethnicity and religious divide and ignoring the real human issues.Pre partition leaders of both communities failed to rise to the occasion giving the British a handle to see the mayhem,which probably they desired.Let there be an occasion when our future generations ignore the divisive tendencies and come togather as any two loving hearts come togather.Any body having not a loving heart is not even an animal, he is not even a stone,he is just a person who is insane .I say Oh ! fellow human beings life is short,live it with jest and freedom ,love and sympathy,tomorrow we will all repent because we wont we there.Leave not the hatred but love for your future generations.I have faith in God and He will do so.Let us wait.A smile and good words to each other without malice but with child like innocence is the only solution ,otherwise,I donot know what happens to our future generations.Never wish or think bad or evil for any one and if we really practice it ,such questions like ,was the partition a mistake ,will never arise.I learned it because never in my life my father talked ill of any religion or faith nor I never knew that human beings could be compartmentalised into segments.For a person like me the world which is full of strife and haterd is not for me .I wish I could have been some where else with those who donot require illwill to live.Let all the good people unite.DUNIYA BHAR KAY SACHE ,SHARIFF LOGO EK HO JAO.
There is still time left for us.
Please for God ,s sake donot go into the vagaries of who did wrong for whom.Have mercy for the poor irrespective of their religion,whose children roam around naked searching for life in garbage and dust bins.We are a poor nations .Donot make mockery of poor. They want two square meals a day.It is a sin to divide the poor and innocent on the religious lines.Love is the greatest force in the world.It demolishes all the barriers of hatred and religions,for which you require a very enlightened leadership which we simlply lack for several hundred of years.Had we got one, we would have lived like brothers and sisters and lovers.The subcontinent was singularly unlucky not to have leaders who could unite but we had enough who led us to hell and ignorance because we were one WHO QUALIFIED FOR IT.Western nations have reached the pinnacle of supremacy,because they were lucky to have hard working ,honest leadreship from George Washington to Lincoln even Clinton,but what we had ,we had detached leadership engaged in stealing million of rupees .Those who do good for the people are just proclaimed as tyrants.People as a whole are stupid and know not who are good for them.A time has come for the supreme leadreship in the subcontinent to emerge,who would be just,kind and loving to all like the father is to his sons.Like the sun shine dispells darkness so would the miseries of people of subcontinent perish when a moment comes when we get down togather to live peacefully with sympathy and consideration for each other.It is sad to see our people steeped in ignorance and petty issues of ethnicity and religious divide and ignoring the real human issues.Pre partition leaders of both communities failed to rise to the occasion giving the British a handle to see the mayhem,which probably they desired.Let there be an occasion when our future generations ignore the divisive tendencies and come togather as any two loving hearts come togather.Any body having not a loving heart is not even an animal, he is not even a stone,he is just a person who is insane .I say Oh ! fellow human beings life is short,live it with jest and freedom ,love and sympathy,tomorrow we will all repent because we wont we there.Leave not the hatred but love for your future generations.I have faith in God and He will do so.Let us wait.A smile and good words to each other without malice but with child like innocence is the only solution ,otherwise,I donot know what happens to our future generations.Never wish or think bad or evil for any one and if we really practice it ,such questions like ,was the partition a mistake ,will never arise.I learned it because never in my life my father talked ill of any religion or faith nor I never knew that human beings could be compartmentalised into segments.For a person like me the world which is full of strife and haterd is not for me .I wish I could have been some where else with those who donot require illwill to live.Let all the good people unite.DUNIYA BHAR KAY SACHE ,SHARIFF LOGO EK HO JAO.
Some of the posts adhere are based on bigotry or lack of knowledge of the situational history.
The question is not clear as to "Mistake by whom?". There were two major communities and one occupying power involved, and all three were involved in the decision making process that culminated in the separation of Pakistan from India. Except for some die-hard secularists, most Pakistanis do not believe it was a mistake despite the hardships under unpleasant dictatorships after independence. They still believe in the purpose and will eventually shed off all internal and external selfish masters.
Leaders of Muslims of India were part of All India Congress from 1906 in a struggle for independence from colonial rule. As the realization came that because of the great war(s) in Europe and the changing world , Britain will not be able to hang on to India forever, the thoughts went to post-independence India, its structure and its constitution. Muslim Leaders worked with the leaders of the majority Hindu leaders in Congress until 1930 for an acceptable structure of post-independence India and on issues related to relations between various post-independence Indian provinces and the Central Government, its Constitution and its contents as related to permanent protection of minorities rights and their way of life. The hawks in Congress from the majority community of Hindus wanted a strong Central Government omnipotent over provinces and constitution reflecting the views of the majority in all respects. Gandhi’s efforts failed to convince these hawks to entrench assurance that the Muslims were seeking. The case of Muslims minority was not the case of a sprinkled minority but a 30 to 40% strong minority with its distinct religion, culture, way of life and Canons that it wanted to preserve and observe and wanted enshrined constitutional assurance that their values shall never be subject to the whim of Hindu majority. This was the crux of the problem that was faced by the Muslim leaders, Gandhi, the Indian Congress and its hawks like Patel and others. Seeing that such assurances were not coming, the Muslims of India started campaign for a separate homeland after 1930. The rest is history.
If mistake has to be assigned, it was the inability of the Congress, deliberate or weakness, that it could not sideline the hawks in Congress and come up with a mutually acceptable Federation formula and constitution. That forced Muslim to opt for a separate homeland instead of being at the mercy of a majority that had shown unwillingness at such critical time to accommodate some of their core requirements.
Some of the posts adhere are based on bigotry or lack of knowledge of the situational history.
The question is not clear as to "Mistake by whom?". There were two major communities and one occupying power involved, and all three were involved in the decision making process that culminated in the separation of Pakistan from India. Except for some die-hard secularists, most Pakistanis do not believe it was a mistake despite the hardships under unpleasant dictatorships after independence. They still believe in the purpose and will eventually shed off all internal and external selfish masters.
Leaders of Muslims of India were part of All India Congress from 1906 in a struggle for independence from colonial rule. As the realization came that because of the great war(s) in Europe and the changing world , Britain will not be able to hang on to India forever, the thoughts went to post-independence India, its structure and its constitution. Muslim Leaders worked with the leaders of the majority Hindu leaders in Congress until 1930 for an acceptable structure of post-independence India and on issues related to relations between various post-independence Indian provinces and the Central Government, its Constitution and its contents as related to permanent protection of minorities rights and their way of life. The hawks in Congress from the majority community of Hindus wanted a strong Central Government omnipotent over provinces and constitution reflecting the views of the majority in all respects. Gandhi’s efforts failed to convince these hawks to entrench assurance that the Muslims were seeking. The case of Muslims minority was not the case of a sprinkled minority but a 30 to 40% strong minority with its distinct religion, culture, way of life and Canons that it wanted to preserve and observe and wanted enshrined constitutional assurance that their values shall never be subject to the whim of Hindu majority. This was the crux of the problem that was faced by the Muslim leaders, Gandhi, the Indian Congress and its hawks like Patel and others. Seeing that such assurances were not coming, the Muslims of India started campaign for a separate homeland after 1930. The rest is history.
If mistake has to be assigned, it was the inability of the Congress, deliberate or weakness, that it could not sideline the hawks in Congress and come up with a mutually acceptable Federation formula and constitution. That forced Muslim to opt for a separate homeland instead of being at the mercy of a majority that had shown unwillingness at such critical time to accommodate some of their core requirements.
To zain
For your information the issue of cow.
It is as a good a relation of mine as of any body else.Some have insight to feel the pain of others and some dont .That is the difference between those who truly love God and some dont .It is a matter of enlightenment and perception.Some react violently in revenge and some just forgive because of Godness in them.By the way just before partition and violence broke out,MA Jinnah had said'We eat cow and Hindus worship it,our traditions and ways of living are sepatare,There is nothing in common in us.That did inflamme the passions.Small thing for you the killing of precious life of innocent ,helpless creature,but painful and bleeding heart for some one who shed blood tears for agony and pain of the poor animal who is a child for us at the same time mother too.God is truly either not there or just ignoring the torture of innocents of all kinds everywhere.Oh God have mercy on mankind for they not what they are doing.
I am in no way suggesting that Pakistan is blameless in this. This creation brought about by the CIA-Saudi-ISI nexus is coming back to haunt all three nations. There was an article a few months back, regarding missing stingers, that mentioned that at the height of the Taliban's power, their leadership, in response to requests about the location of some of these stingers, stated that they would not be turned over because they were being kept "charged for the inevitable, existential war with Iran" (The fundamentalist Sunni ideology of the Taliban and Saudi Wahabi's considers the Shia apostate) - which brings up the question, Was the US really uninvolved in Afghanistan during the Taliban heyday?
I don’t believe this was a case of simply turning a blind eye to what Pakistan was doing - there were tremendous financial interests (the UNOCOL TAP pipeline) and the potential use of the Taliban against Iran. Ahmed Rashid, a rabidly anti Musharraf/Military journalist, has an excellent book called the Taliban that discusses this aspect. The Northern Alliance, that the US is in bed with today, was being supported by the Iranians before 911. It was but logical that Iran extended a helping hand to topple the Taliban. 911 forced the US's hand, and that particular "ally" (Taliban) had to be dropped. So I don't believe the US ever stopped support, overt or covert, for the Taliban until 911. It is ironic that both regimes, Taliban and Saddam, propped up and supported as a bulwark against Iran, ended up being demolished by the US itself. The Iranians have been on the winning side, since 911, in this geo-strategic chess game.
One point that I believe you are only partially correct about are the Madrassa’s. Almost all of those were the brainchild of, and funded by, the Saudis, and still are to this day. The Pakistani establishment, other than Zia-ul Haq, was never quite as virulently pro “Islamic extremism” as the Saudis, but did allow their funding to continue since a sanctioned and bankrupt Pakistan could not afford to damage the Saudi relationship.
Another misconception is that the “Tribal leaders” Pakistan supported are the ones behind this. They are not. Most of the ex-Mujahideen leadership that Pakistan built relations with is gone, or inconsequential. The “Tribal Leaders” that Pakistan has traditionally had influence with and supported are actually quite weak right now, and are being threatened and killed by a new breed of Taliban in collusion with Al Qaeda and foreign militants form the CAR’s. Approximately 250 pro-Government Tribal Elders have been killed in FATA since 2004. Soldiers and opponents being beheaded, mutilated and tortured – these barbarities were never practiced in the FATA- they have been brought about by this “new terrorist”.
“…Talibanization is a huge threat to Pakistan, and unfortunately the US presence is contributing to it…”
I agree and in addition, the US war in Iraq has also contributed to the "Talibanization" in Pakistan, but, in my opinion, Pakistan has also created many of their own problems.
Pakistan funded (through the ISI) and supported the Taliban throughout their rise to power and rule of Afghanistan. The tribal areas supplied the Taliban army thousands of Afghan refugees and Pakistani students that attended radical madrasses in the northwest territories. The Taliban owe their unique interpretation of Islam to these madrasses. The (radical) madrasses were funded by the Pakistani government and students were given a free education. In return, the students fought for the Taliban. As you know, Pakistan, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia were the only countries in the world that recognized the Talaban even after ruling the country for five years.
The CIA and the ISI also financed jihadist (from Saudi Arabia etc.) in the war to liberate Afghanistan from the Soviet Union. So the ISI (Pakistani government) has supported radical Islamic fundamentalist to "liberate" Afghanistan (and Kashmir/India) for nearly thirty years. Foe example, Harkatul Jihad Al-Islami (HuJI) is suspected to be behind the terrorist attack in southern India in late August. They are a fundamentalist Sunni terrorist organization based in Bangladesh and are closely affiliated with al Qaeda. The organization has received training in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
The war in Afghanistan and US policy in Pakistan are inseparable because the same (Pakistani) government that empowered the leaders in northern Pakistan to support the rise of the Taliban in Afghanistan must now confront the tribal leaders who, today, protect, supply and harbor the Taliban in their fight to regain power. The government has no control over the Northern Frontiers at this point, and Islamic fundamentalist operate with impunity. The emboldened tribal leaders have now begun a war against Pakistan as well. The Red Mosque is a good example of a madrassa that brainwashes children on an Islamic philosophy that is contrary to what most Pakistanis believe. It seems to me that Pakistan has created their own monster, but the US support of Musharraf has certainly exasperated the situation.
A recent Pugh poll shows that Bin Laden is supported by about 50% of the population of Pakistan which, in my opinion, is an obvious anti US sentiment. The bad news is that "force" may be the only effective method to get the NW territories under control.
The way the situation is right now, Pakistan does not see the situation in Afghanistan improving under the US, it also does not see the US remaining their indefinitely, and the diversion of resources to the Iraq theater seems to be a sign that the US doe snot really care.
But what is in this for Pakistan? We actually had less instability along our border, and in most of Afghanistan, when the Taliban were in charge, most "Jihad" and "talibanization" resources were going into Afghanistan, rather than Pakistan. Now we have no stability either on the border or in Pakistani tribal areas. To pursue current US policy is to just continue this macabre game with no end in sight.
Bhutto's popularity is limited to "cult followers" - her followers will inevitable bring in her father as a sign of her "leadership qualities". Most polls are taken in urban areas, and are not necessarily reflective of the views of a vast majority of Pakistanis living in rural areas.
At the end of the day, Pakistanis will vote either based on "Biradri" (tribal, clan affiliations) or, where such attachments are weak, on the basis of improvements in their districts, where the current incumbents will have a huge advantage.
The US does not have to go away, but it has to stop interfering based on its own short term interests, which at this point seems to be a fixation with Pakistani Nukes, and a paradigm shift in the way Pakistan has been dealing with the Taliban, despite the fact that its policy has resulted in zero progress in Afghanistan.
And like Iran has become the scapegoat for explaining away the failings and violence in Iraq (though there is probably some support from them), Pakistan has become one for the US's failure in Afghanistan.
The failure is all of US policy - focusing much more on military solutions rather than development - the Afghan poppy crop is estimated to be about 54 percent of GDP this year. With those kinds of socio-economic issues, you could have all 500,000 Pakistani soldiers in FATA and still not get anywhere.
Talibanization is a huge threat to Pakistan, and unfortunately the US presence is contributing to it. But simply leaving is not the answer either because we would be back at square one, with warring factions.
Another view, that might be shed some light on why the Pakistan military is not going all tongs and hammers at the Taliban, and the distrust of the US, Afghanistn, India nexus is presented here:
Based on what you are saying, you are no fan of Bhutto who you see as a tool of the US. She has had many opportunities via the US press to campaign in the US, thats for sure, and it's obvious, the US government prefers Bhutto. Bhutto is also popular in Pakistan, however.
So what would you desire, just free and fair elections? If you are hoping the US will just go away, I don't believe that will happen as the US and Pakistan are coupled through the war in Afghanistan (Taliban), al-Qaeda terrorist training camps in the NWFP, and nuclear weapons.
Do you see the Talabanization of Pakistan as a threat to Pakistan? Do you see the Talabanization as a result of US interference?
There is unrest in the Tribal areas bordering Afghanistan, but don't believe everything you hear about "turmoil" related to the "emergency" in the Western Media.
The lawyers are all affiliated with one political party or the other, and there have been no protests by regular Pakistanis, who may dislike the emergency, but dislike the politicians the US is trying to shove down our throats even less.
My opinion is that Musharraf's second "coup" preempted a "soft coup" by the US using Bhutto. She has already made statements in public that amount to compromising Pakistani national Security for a chance at power, God knows what she has promised in private.
Back to the lawyers and politicians protesting - as an acquaintance said, "lawyers and politicians deserve a few beatings from time to time".
School is going quite well. The light at the end of the tunnel grows ever brighter and closer.
"At the time the Balfour Declaration (1917) was included in the League of Nations mandate for Britain (giving the Zionist a homeland), the Palestinians were not a nation, nor had they ever been a nation or state. Do you believe your reasoning (above) can be applied to the Palestinian-Israel conflict?
"
My interest has sort of moved away from Middle East politics to those of my home, Pakistan, so excuse me if I make any incorrect assumptions.
First off, I have no issues with the existence of Israel as a nation.
Moving on to whether my reasoning can be applied to Israel and Palestine, some differences - Pakistan was not populated by immigrants, though we have absorbed immigrants from Arabia, Central Asia and Persia - we were the center of the Indus Valley civilization and boasted advanced cities as far back as 7000 BCE (look up Mehrgarh, an interesting series of posts on it here:
And this is real history, not the mythological Abrahamic kind. Culture, beliefs and languages evolved and changed, but the Pakistanis are primarily descended from those ancient inhabitants, and we demanded a nation based on land that our people had called home for thousands of years.
There are a lot of diverse opinions, rants, and beliefs posted here which I will not get into all of that but actually aim at trying to post the answer to the question that was poised:
Retrospectively it may be a futile task and is purely academic however interesting in taking part in this exercise. Based on some of the posts it sickens me but is unsurprising at the level of ignorance that is prevalent in our world.
Muslims are not evil, nor are they worse then Nazis and nor is it the root of Pakistan's and other Muslim nations. Please show a little more maturity in expressing your opinions in a public domain. Courtesy and respect is something that could really change how people treat each other yet we choose to ignore it.
Lest this become a sermon on becoming a better person I will return to the topic; In my view point Bangladesh, Pakistan and India should have remained a single entity. A lot of people's discussions above have ignored Bangladesh in their dialogue however I feel that this is a mistake because it was part of the entire deal. Separating East and West Pakistan was a mistake, it makes no sense wedging a country in between one country, not sure on my history but it is not sound strategy.
The other premise that is prevalent here is that the British imperial power at that time was acting on the basis of what would be best for the Sub-continent, which is simply false. As an imperialist power facing unrest in its colony, to the point they had decided to leave meant they wanted to get out of there as quick as possible.
Another point which is important to note here is the lack of revolutionary thinkers / intellectuals that was a result of the British stay in India. White man's burden was the prevalent ideology that created a certain inequality between the indigenous population and the colonizers. They were not going to make the same mistake as they did in North America.
Moving on, in India, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Maoists, Zoroastrians, Christians, Sikhs, etc lived together in relative peace until the partition. A word to the wise their was a specific reason for this. Yes it is agreed there may not have been political power parity and the prevalent caste system did not help much either. However, these issues would have been worked out post-independence like every other country has worked their respective issues. The US of A had a civil war that was based on basic human rights, it divided the nation to the point where it was very possible that two sovereign entities could have emerged. Every nation at its inception has to work through economic, social and cultural issues. I believe there could have been collateral damage due to this but my feeling is that it would have been less in light of the violence that ensued partition. I have heard the horror stories and both sides are guilty of atrocities. Most of my family had to move because of threats to their lives. These were people who lived next to each other for decades and because they were polarized by a higher power decided to take due process into their own hands.
Sans partition I think we as a region would have been more powerful both economically and culturally. Kashmir would not have been an issue, we would not have had to fight wars over disputed territory, thus not having countries which would have to pour the majority of their GDP and FDI into the military to protect its borders. A joint military would arguably have required less funding and without any "enemies" on the border would not have to have an arms race. Bangladesh would not have lost a lot of its industrial base and infrastructure, the Iran pipeline would have happened sooner, natural resources of Balochistan could have been tapped sooner, the country could have in theory enjoyed a higher literacy rate (highly debatable). At the same time you would have to take into account the countless difficulties that would have arisen due to governing such a vast and diverse population, however it would not have been impossible.
Finally, because I think I have gone on long enough without having a specific thesis I want to write a short note on extremism that people are correlating to Islam and Pakistan.
Afghanistan and subsequently all the refugees that poured into Pakistan because of the war there was an American made thing. The Soviets attacked and the US reacted by doing anything and everything they could to stop it. Which meant arming the "freedom fighters" and having the CIA train people like Osama Bin Laden with the sole aim of repelling the Soviet invasion. What was done for the Afghan population after the war was done? So how do you expect autonomous tribes, with an immense stockpile of arms and with the lack of any guidance to do? A lot of the extremist problems that Pakistan, the US, and other nations are facing is dated back to this event in history. NOT ALL PROBLEMS... Not to say that Pakistan is not guilty of fueling extremism when it has been convenient for them, like funding and supplying "freedom fighters" in Kashmir. It is important to note that extremism exists for a variety of reasons that cannot simply be generalized as a Muslim problem. The Palestine / Israel issue is as complex not because Mulsims are crazy and all they spend their time doing is killing, and blowing up things. Yeah it works great for the media powerhouse which paints a completely bias picture as compared to ground realities.
There are a lot of diverse opinions, rants, and beliefs posted here which I will not get into all of that but actually aim at trying to post the answer to the question that was poised:
Retrospectively it may be a futile task and is purely academic however interesting in taking part in this exercise. Based on some of the posts it sickens me but is unsurprising at the level of ignorance that is prevalent in our world.
Muslims are not evil, nor are they worse then Nazis and nor is it the root of Pakistan's and other Muslim nations. Please show a little more maturity in expressing your opinions in a public domain. Courtesy and respect is something that could really change how people treat each other yet we choose to ignore it.
Lest this become a sermon on becoming a better person I will return to the topic; In my view point Bangladesh, Pakistan and India should have remained a single entity. A lot of people's discussions above have ignored Bangladesh in their dialogue however I feel that this is a mistake because it was part of the entire deal. Separating East and West Pakistan was a mistake, it makes no sense wedging a country in between one country, not sure on my history but it is not sound strategy.
The other premise that is prevalent here is that the British imperial power at that time was acting on the basis of what would be best for the Sub-continent, which is simply false. As an imperialist power facing unrest in its colony, to the point they had decided to leave meant they wanted to get out of there as quick as possible.
Another point which is important to note here is the lack of revolutionary thinkers / intellectuals that was a result of the British stay in India. White man's burden was the prevalent ideology that created a certain inequality between the indigenous population and the colonizers. They were not going to make the same mistake as they did in North America.
Moving on, in India, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Maoists, Zoroastrians, Christians, Sikhs, etc lived together in relative peace until the partition. A word to the wise their was a specific reason for this. Yes it is agreed there may not have been political power parity and the prevalent caste system did not help much either. However, these issues would have been worked out post-independence like every other country has worked their respective issues. The US of A had a civil war that was based on basic human rights, it divided the nation to the point where it was very possible that two sovereign entities could have emerged. Every nation at its inception has to work through economic, social and cultural issues. I believe there could have been collateral damage due to this but my feeling is that it would have been less in light of the violence that ensued partition. I have heard the horror stories and both sides are guilty of atrocities. Most of my family had to move because of threats to their lives. These were people who lived next to each other for decades and because they were polarized by a higher power decided to take due process into their own hands.
Sans partition I think we as a region would have been more powerful both economically and culturally. Kashmir would not have been an issue, we would not have had to fight wars over disputed territory, thus not having countries which would have to pour the majority of their GDP and FDI into the military to protect its borders. A joint military would arguably have required less funding and without any "enemies" on the border would not have to have an arms race. Bangladesh would not have lost a lot of its industrial base and infrastructure, the Iran pipeline would have happened sooner, natural resources of Balochistan could have been tapped sooner, the country could have in theory enjoyed a higher literacy rate (highly debatable). At the same time you would have to take into account the countless difficulties that would have arisen due to governing such a vast and diverse population, however it would not have been impossible.
Finally, because I think I have gone on long enough without having a specific thesis I want to write a short note on extremism that people are correlating to Islam and Pakistan.
Afghanistan and subsequently all the refugees that poured into Pakistan because of the war there was an American made thing. The Soviets attacked and the US reacted by doing anything and everything they could to stop it. Which meant arming the "freedom fighters" and having the CIA train people like Osama Bin Laden with the sole aim of repelling the Soviet invasion. What was done for the Afghan population after the war was done? So how do you expect autonomous tribes, with an immense stockpile of arms and with the lack of any guidance to do? A lot of the extremist problems that Pakistan, the US, and other nations are facing is dated back to this event in history. NOT ALL PROBLEMS... Not to say that Pakistan is not guilty of fueling extremism when it has been convenient for them, like funding and supplying "freedom fighters" in Kashmir. It is important to note that extremism exists for a variety of reasons that cannot simply be generalized as a Muslim problem. The Palestine / Israel issue is as complex not because Mulsims are crazy and all they spend their time doing is killing, and blowing up things. Yeah it works great for the media powerhouse which paints a completely bias picture as compared to ground realities.
There are a lot of diverse opinions, rants, and beliefs posted here which I will not get into all of that but actually aim at trying to post the answer to the question that was poised:
Retrospectively it may be a futile task and is purely academic however interesting in taking part in this exercise. Based on some of the posts it sickens me but is unsurprising at the level of ignorance that is prevalent in our world.
Muslims are not evil, nor are they worse then Nazis and nor is it the root of Pakistan's and other Muslim nations. Please show a little more maturity in expressing your opinions in a public domain. Courtesy and respect is something that could really change how people treat each other yet we choose to ignore it.
Lest this become a sermon on becoming a better person I will return to the topic; In my view point Bangladesh, Pakistan and India should have remained a single entity. A lot of people's discussions above have ignored Bangladesh in their dialogue however I feel that this is a mistake because it was part of the entire deal. Separating East and West Pakistan was a mistake, it makes no sense wedging a country in between one country, not sure on my history but it is not sound strategy.
The other premise that is prevalent here is that the British imperial power at that time was acting on the basis of what would be best for the Sub-continent, which is simply false. As an imperialist power facing unrest in its colony, to the point they had decided to leave meant they wanted to get out of there as quick as possible.
Another point which is important to note here is the lack of revolutionary thinkers / intellectuals that was a result of the British stay in India. White man's burden was the prevalent ideology that created a certain inequality between the indigenous population and the colonizers. They were not going to make the same mistake as they did in North America.
Moving on, in India, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Maoists, Zoroastrians, Christians, Sikhs, etc lived together in relative peace until the partition. A word to the wise their was a specific reason for this. Yes it is agreed there may not have been political power parity and the prevalent caste system did not help much either. However, these issues would have been worked out post-independence like every other country has worked their respective issues. The US of A had a civil war that was based on basic human rights, it divided the nation to the point where it was very possible that two sovereign entities could have emerged. Every nation at its inception has to work through economic, social and cultural issues. I believe there could have been collateral damage due to this but my feeling is that it would have been less in light of the violence that ensued partition. I have heard the horror stories and both sides are guilty of atrocities. Most of my family had to move because of threats to their lives. These were people who lived next to each other for decades and because they were polarized by a higher power decided to take due process into their own hands.
Sans partition I think we as a region would have been more powerful both economically and culturally. Kashmir would not have been an issue, we would not have had to fight wars over disputed territory, thus not having countries which would have to pour the majority of their GDP and FDI into the military to protect its borders. A joint military would arguably have required less funding and without any "enemies" on the border would not have to have an arms race. Bangladesh would not have lost a lot of its industrial base and infrastructure, the Iran pipeline would have happened sooner, natural resources of Balochistan could have been tapped sooner, the country could have in theory enjoyed a higher literacy rate (highly debatable). At the same time you would have to take into account the countless difficulties that would have arisen due to governing such a vast and diverse population, however it would not have been impossible.
Finally, because I think I have gone on long enough without having a specific thesis I want to write a short note on extremism that people are correlating to Islam and Pakistan.
Afghanistan and subsequently all the refugees that poured into Pakistan because of the war there was an American made thing. The Soviets attacked and the US reacted by doing anything and everything they could to stop it. Which meant arming the "freedom fighters" and having the CIA train people like Osama Bin Laden with the sole aim of repelling the Soviet invasion. What was done for the Afghan population after the war was done? So how do you expect autonomous tribes, with an immense stockpile of arms and with the lack of any guidance to do? A lot of the extremist problems that Pakistan, the US, and other nations are facing is dated back to this event in history. NOT ALL PROBLEMS... Not to say that Pakistan is not guilty of fueling extremism when it has been convenient for them, like funding and supplying "freedom fighters" in Kashmir. It is important to note that extremism exists for a variety of reasons that cannot simply be generalized as a Muslim problem. The Palestine / Israel issue is as complex not because Mulsims are crazy and all they spend their time doing is killing, and blowing up things. Yeah it works great for the media powerhouse which paints a completely bias picture as compared to ground realities.
How's school Zain? It has been awhile since I've seen you on this site.
"...But Indians continue to mislead - ther ewas no partition becasue there was no united India. The word India throughout history referred to the "indian subcontinent" as a region, not aas a nation or state..."
At the time the Balfour Declaration (1917) was included in the League of Nations mandate for Britain (giving the Zionist a homeland), the Palestinians were not a nation, nor had they ever been a nation or state. Do you believe your reasoning (above) can be applied to the Palestinian-Israel conflict?
Note that Zionist began immigrating to Palestine in about 1880 (when Palestine was under the control of the Ottoman Empire) and built their population from 10,000 to about 80-90,000 by the time the British were given control of the Palestinian territory.
You're right that the cow has functioned as a mother for mankind. But, I honestly believe you are overestimating this issue as a cause for partition. Nor did anyone criticize the British for eating beef in India. That never came up in times of the freedom struggle.
The only problem I have, is that so many like you just seem to be concentrating on the ugly violence in the Muslim world, and failing to realize how much violence there is in your Indian society as well.
Jinnah really tried to come into an understanding with the All India Congress party. And for your information, Day of Action--at least as far as Jinnah was concerned--was not meant for violence. He never ever advocated violence. Mullahs hated him. That was called as a result of Hindu Maha Saba's threats at that time. It is another story that Ghoons took over and caused violence. Please read 'Freedom at Midnight'.
In the United States of America, one becomes a citizen after five years of residents. Most Muslims in India are natives of India. Even if some came from outside, they have been there at least 500 years. And are supposed to be equal before the law. You can not ethnically cleanse them, without giving them their share of resources. And please don't comment about other groups birth rates as if that was just to upset you. Please listen to your own voice. Are you tolerant?
If you're talking about the Ghujaar woman being raped in Punjab by Thakur men, both the victim and the criminals were Muslims. Maybe you were thinking about the atrocities in Bangladesh.
The partition is now a reality. However, I still consider it a major faillure by the leaders of all sides. I cannot believe how vicious those acts were against peoples of all religions. And thank you saying that there are good and bad in every community. The majority of humans are good, always have been; otherwise, our species would not have survived.
With all humility,there is a difference.One only has to have a sensitive heart to understand the pain and suffering of a innocent creature butchered for no fault but just because for its innocence and harmlessness.That is why the killers and those who save and love life should live separately and distantly. The great God has all his designs for those who believe in ruthless killings of his innocent creatures and those who donot.Partition or separatism was not his deed but it did reduce and minimise the subsequent killings inspite of the ongoing efforts to keep it going .Let us wait till he decides. Man is at fault everywhere all of us included.The lesson is just have free and independent,inquisitive mind.Let one not go astray just because some one said :Follow me:.
Yes for sepration of Pakistan from India. This could be better when you rethink any thing after some gap of time. But at that time it was the reality that muslims donot want to live with hindus and so we have pakistan.
Yes for sepration of Pakistan from India. This could be better when you rethink any thing after some gap of time. But at that time it was the reality that muslims donot want to live with hindus and so we have pakistan.
TO
Zain
It is nothing in person.You find good kind,innocent people in all nations and communities and religions.Only thing was that all good people should have come togather on the basis of shared values of love and mutual sympathy rather than on ungodly ,inhuman dogmas of religious biogotry,hatred and personal gains.This exacly was the stand of Swami Vivekanand (if at all you have read about him) and the politicians like Subhash Bose.
Pakistan was basically demanded by those who never went to Pakistan but were never ousted.And those who didnot demand it like Punjabis were forced to get it.Any way by going from your kind of arithmatic you got the land mass in proportion to your than population in entire sub continent ,therefore the question of asking for 20% of additional land for adjusting another 200 million doesnot arise.Please keep birth control measures in mind.It is not our fault in case you keep on increasing your population to enslave your self once again.Any body from any where is most welcome in India since time immemorial but there is one condition that you must profess tolerace,peace equality of all religions and should be grateful to your ancestors,the great ancient saints of yours and above all the commitment for respect of all kinds of lives including the lives of mothers which nourishes all of us with milk.The mother which gives us milk throughout our lives,we are grateful to her and we rightly worship her but you respond by killing her and not stopping at that even eating that most innocent creatures of all only to spite your ancestors.The difference between us and you is that we admire cows for her motherly love whereas you kill it mercilessly.Who is right, killer and eater of mothers flesh or those who have given their lives to save it.I leave it to you and to God to think and do fair justice as an angel who doesnot require cows flesh just to live for a few moments.That exactly was the cause of partition.Had you not indulged in gruesome killing of this innocent animal,India would have never been partitioned and till the time this goes on no God and nature will everlet us live in peace.Unless we learn to respect each others feelings and emotions and learn to love each other with depth,sincerity we will be ruined by infighting and evil.Let us march head to the lofty ideals for respect and love of life and not head towards killing of all sorts. God is never on the side of killers .This is the ancient law.
TO
Zain
It is nothing in person.You find good kind,innocent people in all nations and communities and religions.Only thing was that all good people should have come togather on the basis of shared values of love and mutual sympathy rather than on ungodly ,inhuman dogmas of religious biogotry,hatred and personal gains.This exacly was the stand of Swami Vivekanand (if at all you have read about him) and the politicians like Subhash Bose.
Pakistan was basically demanded by those who never went to Pakistan but were never ousted.And those who didnot demand it like Punjabis were forced to get it.Any way by going from your kind of arithmatic you got the land mass in proportion to your than population in entire sub continent ,therefore the question of asking for 20% of additional land for adjusting another 200 million doesnot arise.Please keep birth control measures in mind.It is not our fault in case you keep on increasing your population to enslave your self once again.Any body from any where is most welcome in India since time immemorial but there is one condition that you must profess tolerace,peace equality of all religions and should be grateful to your ancestors,the great ancient saints of yours and above all the commitment for respect of all kinds of lives including the lives of mothers which nourishes all of us with milk.The mother which gives us milk throughout our lives,we are grateful to her and we rightly worship her but you respond by killing her and not stopping at that even eating that most innocent creatures of all only to spite your ancestors.The difference between us and you is that we admire cows for her motherly love whereas you kill it mercilessly.Who is right, killer and eater of mothers flesh or those who have given their lives to save it.I leave it to you and to God to think and do fair justice as an angel who doesnot require cows flesh just to live for a few moments.That exactly was the cause of partition.Had you not indulged in gruesome killing of this innocent animal,India would have never been partitioned and till the time this goes on no God and nature will everlet us live in peace.Unless we learn to respect each others feelings and emotions and learn to love each other with depth,sincerity we will be ruined by infighting and evil.Let us march head to the lofty ideals for respect and love of life and not head towards killing of all sorts. God is never on the side of killers .This is the ancient law.
TO
Zain
It is nothing in person.You find good kind,innocent people in all nations and communities and religions.Only thing was that all good people should have come togather on the basis of shared values of love and mutual sympathy rather than on ungodly ,inhuman dogmas of religious biogotry,hatred and personal gains.This exacly was the stand of Swami Vivekanand (if at all you have read about him) and the politicians like Subhash Bose.
Pakistan was basically demanded by those who never went to Pakistan but were never ousted.And those who didnot demand it like Punjabis were forced to get it.Any way by going from your kind of arithmatic you got the land mass in proportion to your than population in entire sub continent ,therefore the question of asking for 20% of additional land for adjusting another 200 million doesnot arise.Please keep birth control measures in mind.It is not our fault in case you keep on increasing your population to enslave your self once again.Any body from any where is most welcome in India since time immemorial but there is one condition that you must profess tolerace,peace equality of all religions and should be grateful to your ancestors,the great ancient saints of yours and above all the commitment for respect of all kinds of lives including the lives of mothers which nourishes all of us with milk.The mother which gives us milk throughout our lives,we are grateful to her and we rightly worship her but you respond by killing her and not stopping at that even eating that most innocent creatures of all, only to spite your ancestors.The difference between us and you is that we admire cows for her motherly love whereas you kill it mercilessly.Who is right, killer and eater of mothers flesh or those who have given their lives to save it.I leave it to you and to God to think and do fair justice as an angel who doesnot require cows flesh just to live for a few moments of life.That exactly was the cause of partition.Had you not indulged in gruesome killing of this innocent animal,India would have never been partitioned and till the time this goes on no God and nature will everlet us live in peace.Unless we learn to respect each others feelings and emotions and learn to love each other with depth,sincerity, we will be ruined by infighting and evil on one pretext or the other regardless of religious differences.Let us march head to the lofty ideals for respect and love of life and not head towards killing of all sorts of creatures. God is never on the side of killers .This is the ancient law.
Whether partition can be justified or not depends upon the situation on the looking at the Balkans violence for example...
But Indians continue to mislead - ther ewas no partition becasue there was no united India. The word India throughout history referred to the "indian subcontinent" as a region, not aas a nation or state. The region was comprised of several independent and different Kingdoms and civilizations , with different cultures, languages and even races. Just because the British "united" it into one colony does not automatically create a single "India".
By that reasoning, if someone conquered South East Asia, and united it into one colony for administrative purposes, would you now say that its "one nation"? The same with Europe - just because people look similar does not mean that they are "automatically one nation".
India was never partitioned, it was always a fragmented region, the British conquered it, and India and Pakistan were in fact a UNIFICATION of different princely states, autonomous territories and provinces into two large nations.
Partition of any country cannot be justified with whatever arguments. However, keeping the current and continuing chaos in Pakistan in mind, it seems, now, that the division of India in 1947 wasn't that bad an idea after all. Because, otherwise, today India too would have become a breeding ground and bastion for terrorism and extremism.
Also, India's annexation took place due to full-fledged support and motivation to Muhammad Ali Jinnah from people belonging to his "faith": Indian muslims, who conveniently got manipulated by that smart politician into believing about a paradise called Pakistan.
However, I sincerely feel very sorry for all those people from both sides of the Line of Control for all those horrible experiences they had to undergo during that most unfortunate phase in the history of India.
Interesting how the majority of Pakistanis by and large are united in their Pakistaniat (or Pakistani hood) but the West and Indians insist that somehow Pakistan was a mistake. Err.. thats for Pakistanis to decide, and whatever the ills of our nation, as it struggles to evolve, we are quite happy to be an independent Pakistan.
By the way your question is misleading - there never was a united India - it was always a disparate collection of kingdoms, princely states etc. and the only "unity" it saw was as a "territory" conquered by the British -but then the British conquered a lot of the world -Is all of that supposed to be part of India too?
To Surender:
Pakistan would be quite happy to welcome the Muslims in India, at about 200 million out of I billion they comprise twenty percent of your population, so we'll also accept 20 percent of current Indian territory adjacent to Pakistan to make it a fair transition. The Muslims in India in 1947 were not living in trees you know - they owned land and assets, as do the ones now - a transfer of territory along with people is the fair thing to do - otherwise its just ethnic cleansing.
The story of partition of India is a story of human failure.Both sides of the dispute are wrong .Both have been equally misguided .People on both sides are basically intolerant ,unreasonable,hypocrites,self righteous and arrogant.One side appears to have the faith which they claim is the only true merciful religion while others are just Godless and hence deserve to be killed because they donot follow what they expect others to do and what they would like them to believe in.Pakistan has no system for introspection of their faults unlike Christianity which had the guts and martyrs to question the authority of the Church.The present Western society has a liberal attitude towards religious faiths except the inherent motive of gathering profit from everywhere.One of the reasons of partition was the memory of millions of Hindus killed by Moslem invaders.One of the rulers in Delhi killed thousands of Brahmins because they refused to convert,while others did and today the same people who converted from Hinduism under duress and sword are thw worst enemies of HINDUS.Another reason for partition was existence of hateful system of despising the poor and downtrodden under the rigid caste system,existence of inherent violent madness in spreading the jehadi way of intolerant thought process.Above all the discredit for spreading the communal virus goes to than political leadership and bad luck of the people of not possesing greatmen to guide their destinies.The fate of the people was decided by halfbaked false saints on oneside and diseased mind on the other side compounded by tuberculosis affecting the brainof one separatist leader who could breathe fire and put water on fire by his call for direct action of killing nonmuslims.
The partition of India was good for both the communities, muslims and non muslims but than justice demands all the Muslims should have gone to Pakistan and left India,the land of their dreams,the paradise.Till that happens Kashmir should be part of India and also the nonmuslims who have been killed or evicted from Kashmie too should be remembered.No one ever talks of the lives of nonmuslims living in Pakistan,who are living the lives worse than animals as they are abused and treated like that.They were used to be called dogs, ther women raped in rural areas on the pretext of insulting the religion of Pakistan. This has happened many times and has always gone unreported unlike in a soft state like India.God save this world from those who take their inspiration for going to heaven by killing innocent even in this era.
The story of partition of India is a story of human failure.Both sides of the dispute are wrong .Both have been equally misguided .People on both sides are basically intolerant ,unreasonable,hypocrites,self righteous and arrogant.One side appears to have the faith which they claim is the only true merciful religion while others are just Godless and hence deserve to be killed because they donot follow what they expect others to do and what they would like them to believe in.Pakistan has no system for introspection of their faults unlike Christianity which had the guts and martyrs to question the authority of the Church.The present Western society has a liberal attitude towards religious faiths except the inherent motive of gathering profit from everywhere.One of the reasons of partition was the memory of millions of Hindus killed by Moslem invaders.One of the rulers in Delhi killed thousands of Brahmins because they refused to convert,while others did and today the same people who converted from Hinduism under duress and sword are thw worst enemies of HINDUS.Another reason for partition was existence of hateful system of despising the poor and downtrodden under the rigid caste system,existence of inherent violent madness in spreading the jehadi way of intolerant thought process.Above all the discredit for spreading the communal virus goes to than political leadership and bad luck of the people of not possesing greatmen to guide their destinies.The fate of the people was decided by halfbaked false saints on oneside and diseased mind on the other side compounded by tuberculosis affecting the brainof one separatist leader who could breathe fire and put water on fire by his call for direct action of killing nonmuslims.
The partition of India was good for both the communities, muslims and non muslims but than justice demands all the Muslims should have gone to Pakistan and left India,the land of their dreams,the paradise.Till that happens Kashmir should be part of India and also the nonmuslims who have been killed or evicted from Kashmie too should be remembered.No one ever talks of the lives of nonmuslims living in Pakistan,who are living the lives worse than animals as they are abused and treated like that.They were used to be called dogs, ther women raped in rural areas on the pretext of insulting the religion of Pakistan. This has happened many times and has always gone unreported unlike in a soft state like India.God save this world from those who take their inspiration for going to heaven by killing innocent even in this era.
Mike B. is definitely not a Muslim.
However, despite your misleading name, your blatant Islamophobia is showing!
You might want to tuck that in a little so it's not so obvious.
This gentleman named MikeB is an Al Qaeda sympathiser, a propagandist for Pakistan's dangerous Islamists and probably a "Jihad" marketing agent. And this christian name MikeB is definitely not his real name, its just a pseudonym to disguise his Jihadi leanings. PERIOD.
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Zain
Thanks for the post. Hope you had some quality time away from school over vacation.
"...Ahmed Rashid, a rabidly anti Musharraf/Military journalist, has an excellent book called the Taliban that discusses this aspect..."
I read the book and found it to be extremely difficult to get through, but in the same respect, full of really good regional information. Mr. Rashid has amazing experience in that part of the world.
At any rate, thanks for the discussion, and hope to see your post in the future.
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There is still time left for us.
Please for God ,s sake donot go into the vagaries of who did wrong for whom.Have mercy for the poor irrespective of their religion,whose children roam around naked searching for life in garbage and dust bins.We are a poor nations .Donot make mockery of poor. They want two square meals a day.It is a sin to divide the poor and innocent on the religious lines.Love is the greatest force in the world.It demolishes all the barriers of hatred and religions,for which you require a very enlightened leadership which we simlply lack for several hundred of years.Had we got one, we would have lived like brothers and sisters and lovers.The subcontinent was singularly unlucky not to have leaders who could unite but we had enough who led us to hell and ignorance because we were one WHO QUALIFIED FOR IT.Western nations have reached the pinnacle of supremacy,because they were lucky to have hard working ,honest leadreship from George Washington to Lincoln even Clinton,but what we had ,we had detached leadership engaged in stealing million of rupees .Those who do good for the people are just proclaimed as tyrants.People as a whole are stupid and know not who are good for them.A time has come for the supreme leadreship in the subcontinent to emerge,who would be just,kind and loving to all like the father is to his sons.Like the sun shine dispells darkness so would the miseries of people of subcontinent perish when a moment comes when we get down togather to live peacefully with sympathy and consideration for each other.It is sad to see our people steeped in ignorance and petty issues of ethnicity and religious divide and ignoring the real human issues.Pre partition leaders of both communities failed to rise to the occasion giving the British a handle to see the mayhem,which probably they desired.Let there be an occasion when our future generations ignore the divisive tendencies and come togather as any two loving hearts come togather.Any body having not a loving heart is not even an animal, he is not even a stone,he is just a person who is insane .I say Oh ! fellow human beings life is short,live it with jest and freedom ,love and sympathy,tomorrow we will all repent because we wont we there.Leave not the hatred but love for your future generations.I have faith in God and He will do so.Let us wait.A smile and good words to each other without malice but with child like innocence is the only solution ,otherwise,I donot know what happens to our future generations.Never wish or think bad or evil for any one and if we really practice it ,such questions like ,was the partition a mistake ,will never arise.I learned it because never in my life my father talked ill of any religion or faith nor I never knew that human beings could be compartmentalised into segments.For a person like me the world which is full of strife and haterd is not for me .I wish I could have been some where else with those who donot require illwill to live.Let all the good people unite.DUNIYA BHAR KAY SACHE ,SHARIFF LOGO EK HO JAO.
November 23, 2007 2:01 PM | Report Offensive Comments
There is still time left for us.
Please for God ,s sake donot go into the vagaries of who did wrong for whom.Have mercy for the poor irrespective of their religion,whose children roam around naked searching for life in garbage and dust bins.We are a poor nations .Donot make mockery of poor. They want two square meals a day.It is a sin to divide the poor and innocent on the religious lines.Love is the greatest force in the world.It demolishes all the barriers of hatred and religions,for which you require a very enlightened leadership which we simlply lack for several hundred of years.Had we got one, we would have lived like brothers and sisters and lovers.The subcontinent was singularly unlucky not to have leaders who could unite but we had enough who led us to hell and ignorance because we were one WHO QUALIFIED FOR IT.Western nations have reached the pinnacle of supremacy,because they were lucky to have hard working ,honest leadreship from George Washington to Lincoln even Clinton,but what we had ,we had detached leadership engaged in stealing million of rupees .Those who do good for the people are just proclaimed as tyrants.People as a whole are stupid and know not who are good for them.A time has come for the supreme leadreship in the subcontinent to emerge,who would be just,kind and loving to all like the father is to his sons.Like the sun shine dispells darkness so would the miseries of people of subcontinent perish when a moment comes when we get down togather to live peacefully with sympathy and consideration for each other.It is sad to see our people steeped in ignorance and petty issues of ethnicity and religious divide and ignoring the real human issues.Pre partition leaders of both communities failed to rise to the occasion giving the British a handle to see the mayhem,which probably they desired.Let there be an occasion when our future generations ignore the divisive tendencies and come togather as any two loving hearts come togather.Any body having not a loving heart is not even an animal, he is not even a stone,he is just a person who is insane .I say Oh ! fellow human beings life is short,live it with jest and freedom ,love and sympathy,tomorrow we will all repent because we wont we there.Leave not the hatred but love for your future generations.I have faith in God and He will do so.Let us wait.A smile and good words to each other without malice but with child like innocence is the only solution ,otherwise,I donot know what happens to our future generations.Never wish or think bad or evil for any one and if we really practice it ,such questions like ,was the partition a mistake ,will never arise.I learned it because never in my life my father talked ill of any religion or faith nor I never knew that human beings could be compartmentalised into segments.For a person like me the world which is full of strife and haterd is not for me .I wish I could have been some where else with those who donot require illwill to live.Let all the good people unite.DUNIYA BHAR KAY SACHE ,SHARIFF LOGO EK HO JAO.
November 23, 2007 1:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Some of the posts adhere are based on bigotry or lack of knowledge of the situational history.
The question is not clear as to "Mistake by whom?". There were two major communities and one occupying power involved, and all three were involved in the decision making process that culminated in the separation of Pakistan from India. Except for some die-hard secularists, most Pakistanis do not believe it was a mistake despite the hardships under unpleasant dictatorships after independence. They still believe in the purpose and will eventually shed off all internal and external selfish masters.
Leaders of Muslims of India were part of All India Congress from 1906 in a struggle for independence from colonial rule. As the realization came that because of the great war(s) in Europe and the changing world , Britain will not be able to hang on to India forever, the thoughts went to post-independence India, its structure and its constitution. Muslim Leaders worked with the leaders of the majority Hindu leaders in Congress until 1930 for an acceptable structure of post-independence India and on issues related to relations between various post-independence Indian provinces and the Central Government, its Constitution and its contents as related to permanent protection of minorities rights and their way of life. The hawks in Congress from the majority community of Hindus wanted a strong Central Government omnipotent over provinces and constitution reflecting the views of the majority in all respects. Gandhi’s efforts failed to convince these hawks to entrench assurance that the Muslims were seeking. The case of Muslims minority was not the case of a sprinkled minority but a 30 to 40% strong minority with its distinct religion, culture, way of life and Canons that it wanted to preserve and observe and wanted enshrined constitutional assurance that their values shall never be subject to the whim of Hindu majority. This was the crux of the problem that was faced by the Muslim leaders, Gandhi, the Indian Congress and its hawks like Patel and others. Seeing that such assurances were not coming, the Muslims of India started campaign for a separate homeland after 1930. The rest is history.
If mistake has to be assigned, it was the inability of the Congress, deliberate or weakness, that it could not sideline the hawks in Congress and come up with a mutually acceptable Federation formula and constitution. That forced Muslim to opt for a separate homeland instead of being at the mercy of a majority that had shown unwillingness at such critical time to accommodate some of their core requirements.
November 22, 2007 10:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Some of the posts adhere are based on bigotry or lack of knowledge of the situational history.
The question is not clear as to "Mistake by whom?". There were two major communities and one occupying power involved, and all three were involved in the decision making process that culminated in the separation of Pakistan from India. Except for some die-hard secularists, most Pakistanis do not believe it was a mistake despite the hardships under unpleasant dictatorships after independence. They still believe in the purpose and will eventually shed off all internal and external selfish masters.
Leaders of Muslims of India were part of All India Congress from 1906 in a struggle for independence from colonial rule. As the realization came that because of the great war(s) in Europe and the changing world , Britain will not be able to hang on to India forever, the thoughts went to post-independence India, its structure and its constitution. Muslim Leaders worked with the leaders of the majority Hindu leaders in Congress until 1930 for an acceptable structure of post-independence India and on issues related to relations between various post-independence Indian provinces and the Central Government, its Constitution and its contents as related to permanent protection of minorities rights and their way of life. The hawks in Congress from the majority community of Hindus wanted a strong Central Government omnipotent over provinces and constitution reflecting the views of the majority in all respects. Gandhi’s efforts failed to convince these hawks to entrench assurance that the Muslims were seeking. The case of Muslims minority was not the case of a sprinkled minority but a 30 to 40% strong minority with its distinct religion, culture, way of life and Canons that it wanted to preserve and observe and wanted enshrined constitutional assurance that their values shall never be subject to the whim of Hindu majority. This was the crux of the problem that was faced by the Muslim leaders, Gandhi, the Indian Congress and its hawks like Patel and others. Seeing that such assurances were not coming, the Muslims of India started campaign for a separate homeland after 1930. The rest is history.
If mistake has to be assigned, it was the inability of the Congress, deliberate or weakness, that it could not sideline the hawks in Congress and come up with a mutually acceptable Federation formula and constitution. That forced Muslim to opt for a separate homeland instead of being at the mercy of a majority that had shown unwillingness at such critical time to accommodate some of their core requirements.
November 22, 2007 10:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
To zain
For your information the issue of cow.
It is as a good a relation of mine as of any body else.Some have insight to feel the pain of others and some dont .That is the difference between those who truly love God and some dont .It is a matter of enlightenment and perception.Some react violently in revenge and some just forgive because of Godness in them.By the way just before partition and violence broke out,MA Jinnah had said'We eat cow and Hindus worship it,our traditions and ways of living are sepatare,There is nothing in common in us.That did inflamme the passions.Small thing for you the killing of precious life of innocent ,helpless creature,but painful and bleeding heart for some one who shed blood tears for agony and pain of the poor animal who is a child for us at the same time mother too.God is truly either not there or just ignoring the torture of innocents of all kinds everywhere.Oh God have mercy on mankind for they not what they are doing.
November 22, 2007 1:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Tom:
Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family.
I am in no way suggesting that Pakistan is blameless in this. This creation brought about by the CIA-Saudi-ISI nexus is coming back to haunt all three nations. There was an article a few months back, regarding missing stingers, that mentioned that at the height of the Taliban's power, their leadership, in response to requests about the location of some of these stingers, stated that they would not be turned over because they were being kept "charged for the inevitable, existential war with Iran" (The fundamentalist Sunni ideology of the Taliban and Saudi Wahabi's considers the Shia apostate) - which brings up the question, Was the US really uninvolved in Afghanistan during the Taliban heyday?
I don’t believe this was a case of simply turning a blind eye to what Pakistan was doing - there were tremendous financial interests (the UNOCOL TAP pipeline) and the potential use of the Taliban against Iran. Ahmed Rashid, a rabidly anti Musharraf/Military journalist, has an excellent book called the Taliban that discusses this aspect. The Northern Alliance, that the US is in bed with today, was being supported by the Iranians before 911. It was but logical that Iran extended a helping hand to topple the Taliban. 911 forced the US's hand, and that particular "ally" (Taliban) had to be dropped. So I don't believe the US ever stopped support, overt or covert, for the Taliban until 911. It is ironic that both regimes, Taliban and Saddam, propped up and supported as a bulwark against Iran, ended up being demolished by the US itself. The Iranians have been on the winning side, since 911, in this geo-strategic chess game.
One point that I believe you are only partially correct about are the Madrassa’s. Almost all of those were the brainchild of, and funded by, the Saudis, and still are to this day. The Pakistani establishment, other than Zia-ul Haq, was never quite as virulently pro “Islamic extremism” as the Saudis, but did allow their funding to continue since a sanctioned and bankrupt Pakistan could not afford to damage the Saudi relationship.
Another misconception is that the “Tribal leaders” Pakistan supported are the ones behind this. They are not. Most of the ex-Mujahideen leadership that Pakistan built relations with is gone, or inconsequential. The “Tribal Leaders” that Pakistan has traditionally had influence with and supported are actually quite weak right now, and are being threatened and killed by a new breed of Taliban in collusion with Al Qaeda and foreign militants form the CAR’s. Approximately 250 pro-Government Tribal Elders have been killed in FATA since 2004. Soldiers and opponents being beheaded, mutilated and tortured – these barbarities were never practiced in the FATA- they have been brought about by this “new terrorist”.
I have to run, enjoy your holidays.
November 22, 2007 12:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Zain
“…Talibanization is a huge threat to Pakistan, and unfortunately the US presence is contributing to it…”
I agree and in addition, the US war in Iraq has also contributed to the "Talibanization" in Pakistan, but, in my opinion, Pakistan has also created many of their own problems.
Pakistan funded (through the ISI) and supported the Taliban throughout their rise to power and rule of Afghanistan. The tribal areas supplied the Taliban army thousands of Afghan refugees and Pakistani students that attended radical madrasses in the northwest territories. The Taliban owe their unique interpretation of Islam to these madrasses. The (radical) madrasses were funded by the Pakistani government and students were given a free education. In return, the students fought for the Taliban. As you know, Pakistan, the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia were the only countries in the world that recognized the Talaban even after ruling the country for five years.
The CIA and the ISI also financed jihadist (from Saudi Arabia etc.) in the war to liberate Afghanistan from the Soviet Union. So the ISI (Pakistani government) has supported radical Islamic fundamentalist to "liberate" Afghanistan (and Kashmir/India) for nearly thirty years. Foe example, Harkatul Jihad Al-Islami (HuJI) is suspected to be behind the terrorist attack in southern India in late August. They are a fundamentalist Sunni terrorist organization based in Bangladesh and are closely affiliated with al Qaeda. The organization has received training in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
The war in Afghanistan and US policy in Pakistan are inseparable because the same (Pakistani) government that empowered the leaders in northern Pakistan to support the rise of the Taliban in Afghanistan must now confront the tribal leaders who, today, protect, supply and harbor the Taliban in their fight to regain power. The government has no control over the Northern Frontiers at this point, and Islamic fundamentalist operate with impunity. The emboldened tribal leaders have now begun a war against Pakistan as well. The Red Mosque is a good example of a madrassa that brainwashes children on an Islamic philosophy that is contrary to what most Pakistanis believe. It seems to me that Pakistan has created their own monster, but the US support of Musharraf has certainly exasperated the situation.
A recent Pugh poll shows that Bin Laden is supported by about 50% of the population of Pakistan which, in my opinion, is an obvious anti US sentiment. The bad news is that "force" may be the only effective method to get the NW territories under control.
November 22, 2007 8:40 AM | Report Offensive Comments
The way the situation is right now, Pakistan does not see the situation in Afghanistan improving under the US, it also does not see the US remaining their indefinitely, and the diversion of resources to the Iraq theater seems to be a sign that the US doe snot really care.
But what is in this for Pakistan? We actually had less instability along our border, and in most of Afghanistan, when the Taliban were in charge, most "Jihad" and "talibanization" resources were going into Afghanistan, rather than Pakistan. Now we have no stability either on the border or in Pakistani tribal areas. To pursue current US policy is to just continue this macabre game with no end in sight.
November 21, 2007 12:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Tom:
Bhutto's popularity is limited to "cult followers" - her followers will inevitable bring in her father as a sign of her "leadership qualities". Most polls are taken in urban areas, and are not necessarily reflective of the views of a vast majority of Pakistanis living in rural areas.
At the end of the day, Pakistanis will vote either based on "Biradri" (tribal, clan affiliations) or, where such attachments are weak, on the basis of improvements in their districts, where the current incumbents will have a huge advantage.
The US does not have to go away, but it has to stop interfering based on its own short term interests, which at this point seems to be a fixation with Pakistani Nukes, and a paradigm shift in the way Pakistan has been dealing with the Taliban, despite the fact that its policy has resulted in zero progress in Afghanistan.
And like Iran has become the scapegoat for explaining away the failings and violence in Iraq (though there is probably some support from them), Pakistan has become one for the US's failure in Afghanistan.
The failure is all of US policy - focusing much more on military solutions rather than development - the Afghan poppy crop is estimated to be about 54 percent of GDP this year. With those kinds of socio-economic issues, you could have all 500,000 Pakistani soldiers in FATA and still not get anywhere.
Talibanization is a huge threat to Pakistan, and unfortunately the US presence is contributing to it. But simply leaving is not the answer either because we would be back at square one, with warring factions.
Another view, that might be shed some light on why the Pakistan military is not going all tongs and hammers at the Taliban, and the distrust of the US, Afghanistn, India nexus is presented here:
http://www.ahmedquraishi.com/latest_col.php?id=6
November 21, 2007 12:23 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Zain
Based on what you are saying, you are no fan of Bhutto who you see as a tool of the US. She has had many opportunities via the US press to campaign in the US, thats for sure, and it's obvious, the US government prefers Bhutto. Bhutto is also popular in Pakistan, however.
So what would you desire, just free and fair elections? If you are hoping the US will just go away, I don't believe that will happen as the US and Pakistan are coupled through the war in Afghanistan (Taliban), al-Qaeda terrorist training camps in the NWFP, and nuclear weapons.
Do you see the Talabanization of Pakistan as a threat to Pakistan? Do you see the Talabanization as a result of US interference?
Thanks
November 21, 2007 9:12 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Tom:
There is unrest in the Tribal areas bordering Afghanistan, but don't believe everything you hear about "turmoil" related to the "emergency" in the Western Media.
The lawyers are all affiliated with one political party or the other, and there have been no protests by regular Pakistanis, who may dislike the emergency, but dislike the politicians the US is trying to shove down our throats even less.
My opinion is that Musharraf's second "coup" preempted a "soft coup" by the US using Bhutto. She has already made statements in public that amount to compromising Pakistani national Security for a chance at power, God knows what she has promised in private.
Back to the lawyers and politicians protesting - as an acquaintance said, "lawyers and politicians deserve a few beatings from time to time".
November 21, 2007 12:59 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Zain
Thanks for the reply and information. There is a lot of turmoil in Pakistan these days.
November 20, 2007 6:19 PM | Report Offensive Comments
And hello to you Tom,
School is going quite well. The light at the end of the tunnel grows ever brighter and closer.
"At the time the Balfour Declaration (1917) was included in the League of Nations mandate for Britain (giving the Zionist a homeland), the Palestinians were not a nation, nor had they ever been a nation or state. Do you believe your reasoning (above) can be applied to the Palestinian-Israel conflict?
"
My interest has sort of moved away from Middle East politics to those of my home, Pakistan, so excuse me if I make any incorrect assumptions.
First off, I have no issues with the existence of Israel as a nation.
Moving on to whether my reasoning can be applied to Israel and Palestine, some differences - Pakistan was not populated by immigrants, though we have absorbed immigrants from Arabia, Central Asia and Persia - we were the center of the Indus Valley civilization and boasted advanced cities as far back as 7000 BCE (look up Mehrgarh, an interesting series of posts on it here:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/history-culture/7650-ancient-history-not-appreciated-pakistanis-7.html#post107824
And this is real history, not the mythological Abrahamic kind. Culture, beliefs and languages evolved and changed, but the Pakistanis are primarily descended from those ancient inhabitants, and we demanded a nation based on land that our people had called home for thousands of years.
November 20, 2007 12:37 PM | Report Offensive Comments
There are a lot of diverse opinions, rants, and beliefs posted here which I will not get into all of that but actually aim at trying to post the answer to the question that was poised:
Retrospectively it may be a futile task and is purely academic however interesting in taking part in this exercise. Based on some of the posts it sickens me but is unsurprising at the level of ignorance that is prevalent in our world.
Muslims are not evil, nor are they worse then Nazis and nor is it the root of Pakistan's and other Muslim nations. Please show a little more maturity in expressing your opinions in a public domain. Courtesy and respect is something that could really change how people treat each other yet we choose to ignore it.
Lest this become a sermon on becoming a better person I will return to the topic; In my view point Bangladesh, Pakistan and India should have remained a single entity. A lot of people's discussions above have ignored Bangladesh in their dialogue however I feel that this is a mistake because it was part of the entire deal. Separating East and West Pakistan was a mistake, it makes no sense wedging a country in between one country, not sure on my history but it is not sound strategy.
The other premise that is prevalent here is that the British imperial power at that time was acting on the basis of what would be best for the Sub-continent, which is simply false. As an imperialist power facing unrest in its colony, to the point they had decided to leave meant they wanted to get out of there as quick as possible.
Another point which is important to note here is the lack of revolutionary thinkers / intellectuals that was a result of the British stay in India. White man's burden was the prevalent ideology that created a certain inequality between the indigenous population and the colonizers. They were not going to make the same mistake as they did in North America.
Moving on, in India, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Maoists, Zoroastrians, Christians, Sikhs, etc lived together in relative peace until the partition. A word to the wise their was a specific reason for this. Yes it is agreed there may not have been political power parity and the prevalent caste system did not help much either. However, these issues would have been worked out post-independence like every other country has worked their respective issues. The US of A had a civil war that was based on basic human rights, it divided the nation to the point where it was very possible that two sovereign entities could have emerged. Every nation at its inception has to work through economic, social and cultural issues. I believe there could have been collateral damage due to this but my feeling is that it would have been less in light of the violence that ensued partition. I have heard the horror stories and both sides are guilty of atrocities. Most of my family had to move because of threats to their lives. These were people who lived next to each other for decades and because they were polarized by a higher power decided to take due process into their own hands.
Sans partition I think we as a region would have been more powerful both economically and culturally. Kashmir would not have been an issue, we would not have had to fight wars over disputed territory, thus not having countries which would have to pour the majority of their GDP and FDI into the military to protect its borders. A joint military would arguably have required less funding and without any "enemies" on the border would not have to have an arms race. Bangladesh would not have lost a lot of its industrial base and infrastructure, the Iran pipeline would have happened sooner, natural resources of Balochistan could have been tapped sooner, the country could have in theory enjoyed a higher literacy rate (highly debatable). At the same time you would have to take into account the countless difficulties that would have arisen due to governing such a vast and diverse population, however it would not have been impossible.
Finally, because I think I have gone on long enough without having a specific thesis I want to write a short note on extremism that people are correlating to Islam and Pakistan.
Afghanistan and subsequently all the refugees that poured into Pakistan because of the war there was an American made thing. The Soviets attacked and the US reacted by doing anything and everything they could to stop it. Which meant arming the "freedom fighters" and having the CIA train people like Osama Bin Laden with the sole aim of repelling the Soviet invasion. What was done for the Afghan population after the war was done? So how do you expect autonomous tribes, with an immense stockpile of arms and with the lack of any guidance to do? A lot of the extremist problems that Pakistan, the US, and other nations are facing is dated back to this event in history. NOT ALL PROBLEMS... Not to say that Pakistan is not guilty of fueling extremism when it has been convenient for them, like funding and supplying "freedom fighters" in Kashmir. It is important to note that extremism exists for a variety of reasons that cannot simply be generalized as a Muslim problem. The Palestine / Israel issue is as complex not because Mulsims are crazy and all they spend their time doing is killing, and blowing up things. Yeah it works great for the media powerhouse which paints a completely bias picture as compared to ground realities.
November 20, 2007 1:47 AM | Report Offensive Comments
There are a lot of diverse opinions, rants, and beliefs posted here which I will not get into all of that but actually aim at trying to post the answer to the question that was poised:
Retrospectively it may be a futile task and is purely academic however interesting in taking part in this exercise. Based on some of the posts it sickens me but is unsurprising at the level of ignorance that is prevalent in our world.
Muslims are not evil, nor are they worse then Nazis and nor is it the root of Pakistan's and other Muslim nations. Please show a little more maturity in expressing your opinions in a public domain. Courtesy and respect is something that could really change how people treat each other yet we choose to ignore it.
Lest this become a sermon on becoming a better person I will return to the topic; In my view point Bangladesh, Pakistan and India should have remained a single entity. A lot of people's discussions above have ignored Bangladesh in their dialogue however I feel that this is a mistake because it was part of the entire deal. Separating East and West Pakistan was a mistake, it makes no sense wedging a country in between one country, not sure on my history but it is not sound strategy.
The other premise that is prevalent here is that the British imperial power at that time was acting on the basis of what would be best for the Sub-continent, which is simply false. As an imperialist power facing unrest in its colony, to the point they had decided to leave meant they wanted to get out of there as quick as possible.
Another point which is important to note here is the lack of revolutionary thinkers / intellectuals that was a result of the British stay in India. White man's burden was the prevalent ideology that created a certain inequality between the indigenous population and the colonizers. They were not going to make the same mistake as they did in North America.
Moving on, in India, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Maoists, Zoroastrians, Christians, Sikhs, etc lived together in relative peace until the partition. A word to the wise their was a specific reason for this. Yes it is agreed there may not have been political power parity and the prevalent caste system did not help much either. However, these issues would have been worked out post-independence like every other country has worked their respective issues. The US of A had a civil war that was based on basic human rights, it divided the nation to the point where it was very possible that two sovereign entities could have emerged. Every nation at its inception has to work through economic, social and cultural issues. I believe there could have been collateral damage due to this but my feeling is that it would have been less in light of the violence that ensued partition. I have heard the horror stories and both sides are guilty of atrocities. Most of my family had to move because of threats to their lives. These were people who lived next to each other for decades and because they were polarized by a higher power decided to take due process into their own hands.
Sans partition I think we as a region would have been more powerful both economically and culturally. Kashmir would not have been an issue, we would not have had to fight wars over disputed territory, thus not having countries which would have to pour the majority of their GDP and FDI into the military to protect its borders. A joint military would arguably have required less funding and without any "enemies" on the border would not have to have an arms race. Bangladesh would not have lost a lot of its industrial base and infrastructure, the Iran pipeline would have happened sooner, natural resources of Balochistan could have been tapped sooner, the country could have in theory enjoyed a higher literacy rate (highly debatable). At the same time you would have to take into account the countless difficulties that would have arisen due to governing such a vast and diverse population, however it would not have been impossible.
Finally, because I think I have gone on long enough without having a specific thesis I want to write a short note on extremism that people are correlating to Islam and Pakistan.
Afghanistan and subsequently all the refugees that poured into Pakistan because of the war there was an American made thing. The Soviets attacked and the US reacted by doing anything and everything they could to stop it. Which meant arming the "freedom fighters" and having the CIA train people like Osama Bin Laden with the sole aim of repelling the Soviet invasion. What was done for the Afghan population after the war was done? So how do you expect autonomous tribes, with an immense stockpile of arms and with the lack of any guidance to do? A lot of the extremist problems that Pakistan, the US, and other nations are facing is dated back to this event in history. NOT ALL PROBLEMS... Not to say that Pakistan is not guilty of fueling extremism when it has been convenient for them, like funding and supplying "freedom fighters" in Kashmir. It is important to note that extremism exists for a variety of reasons that cannot simply be generalized as a Muslim problem. The Palestine / Israel issue is as complex not because Mulsims are crazy and all they spend their time doing is killing, and blowing up things. Yeah it works great for the media powerhouse which paints a completely bias picture as compared to ground realities.
November 20, 2007 1:35 AM | Report Offensive Comments
There are a lot of diverse opinions, rants, and beliefs posted here which I will not get into all of that but actually aim at trying to post the answer to the question that was poised:
Retrospectively it may be a futile task and is purely academic however interesting in taking part in this exercise. Based on some of the posts it sickens me but is unsurprising at the level of ignorance that is prevalent in our world.
Muslims are not evil, nor are they worse then Nazis and nor is it the root of Pakistan's and other Muslim nations. Please show a little more maturity in expressing your opinions in a public domain. Courtesy and respect is something that could really change how people treat each other yet we choose to ignore it.
Lest this become a sermon on becoming a better person I will return to the topic; In my view point Bangladesh, Pakistan and India should have remained a single entity. A lot of people's discussions above have ignored Bangladesh in their dialogue however I feel that this is a mistake because it was part of the entire deal. Separating East and West Pakistan was a mistake, it makes no sense wedging a country in between one country, not sure on my history but it is not sound strategy.
The other premise that is prevalent here is that the British imperial power at that time was acting on the basis of what would be best for the Sub-continent, which is simply false. As an imperialist power facing unrest in its colony, to the point they had decided to leave meant they wanted to get out of there as quick as possible.
Another point which is important to note here is the lack of revolutionary thinkers / intellectuals that was a result of the British stay in India. White man's burden was the prevalent ideology that created a certain inequality between the indigenous population and the colonizers. They were not going to make the same mistake as they did in North America.
Moving on, in India, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Maoists, Zoroastrians, Christians, Sikhs, etc lived together in relative peace until the partition. A word to the wise their was a specific reason for this. Yes it is agreed there may not have been political power parity and the prevalent caste system did not help much either. However, these issues would have been worked out post-independence like every other country has worked their respective issues. The US of A had a civil war that was based on basic human rights, it divided the nation to the point where it was very possible that two sovereign entities could have emerged. Every nation at its inception has to work through economic, social and cultural issues. I believe there could have been collateral damage due to this but my feeling is that it would have been less in light of the violence that ensued partition. I have heard the horror stories and both sides are guilty of atrocities. Most of my family had to move because of threats to their lives. These were people who lived next to each other for decades and because they were polarized by a higher power decided to take due process into their own hands.
Sans partition I think we as a region would have been more powerful both economically and culturally. Kashmir would not have been an issue, we would not have had to fight wars over disputed territory, thus not having countries which would have to pour the majority of their GDP and FDI into the military to protect its borders. A joint military would arguably have required less funding and without any "enemies" on the border would not have to have an arms race. Bangladesh would not have lost a lot of its industrial base and infrastructure, the Iran pipeline would have happened sooner, natural resources of Balochistan could have been tapped sooner, the country could have in theory enjoyed a higher literacy rate (highly debatable). At the same time you would have to take into account the countless difficulties that would have arisen due to governing such a vast and diverse population, however it would not have been impossible.
Finally, because I think I have gone on long enough without having a specific thesis I want to write a short note on extremism that people are correlating to Islam and Pakistan.
Afghanistan and subsequently all the refugees that poured into Pakistan because of the war there was an American made thing. The Soviets attacked and the US reacted by doing anything and everything they could to stop it. Which meant arming the "freedom fighters" and having the CIA train people like Osama Bin Laden with the sole aim of repelling the Soviet invasion. What was done for the Afghan population after the war was done? So how do you expect autonomous tribes, with an immense stockpile of arms and with the lack of any guidance to do? A lot of the extremist problems that Pakistan, the US, and other nations are facing is dated back to this event in history. NOT ALL PROBLEMS... Not to say that Pakistan is not guilty of fueling extremism when it has been convenient for them, like funding and supplying "freedom fighters" in Kashmir. It is important to note that extremism exists for a variety of reasons that cannot simply be generalized as a Muslim problem. The Palestine / Israel issue is as complex not because Mulsims are crazy and all they spend their time doing is killing, and blowing up things. Yeah it works great for the media powerhouse which paints a completely bias picture as compared to ground realities.
November 20, 2007 1:33 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Zain
How's school Zain? It has been awhile since I've seen you on this site.
"...But Indians continue to mislead - ther ewas no partition becasue there was no united India. The word India throughout history referred to the "indian subcontinent" as a region, not aas a nation or state..."
At the time the Balfour Declaration (1917) was included in the League of Nations mandate for Britain (giving the Zionist a homeland), the Palestinians were not a nation, nor had they ever been a nation or state. Do you believe your reasoning (above) can be applied to the Palestinian-Israel conflict?
Note that Zionist began immigrating to Palestine in about 1880 (when Palestine was under the control of the Ottoman Empire) and built their population from 10,000 to about 80-90,000 by the time the British were given control of the Palestinian territory.
November 19, 2007 7:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Surrender,
You're right that the cow has functioned as a mother for mankind. But, I honestly believe you are overestimating this issue as a cause for partition. Nor did anyone criticize the British for eating beef in India. That never came up in times of the freedom struggle.
The only problem I have, is that so many like you just seem to be concentrating on the ugly violence in the Muslim world, and failing to realize how much violence there is in your Indian society as well.
Jinnah really tried to come into an understanding with the All India Congress party. And for your information, Day of Action--at least as far as Jinnah was concerned--was not meant for violence. He never ever advocated violence. Mullahs hated him. That was called as a result of Hindu Maha Saba's threats at that time. It is another story that Ghoons took over and caused violence. Please read 'Freedom at Midnight'.
In the United States of America, one becomes a citizen after five years of residents. Most Muslims in India are natives of India. Even if some came from outside, they have been there at least 500 years. And are supposed to be equal before the law. You can not ethnically cleanse them, without giving them their share of resources. And please don't comment about other groups birth rates as if that was just to upset you. Please listen to your own voice. Are you tolerant?
If you're talking about the Ghujaar woman being raped in Punjab by Thakur men, both the victim and the criminals were Muslims. Maybe you were thinking about the atrocities in Bangladesh.
The partition is now a reality. However, I still consider it a major faillure by the leaders of all sides. I cannot believe how vicious those acts were against peoples of all religions. And thank you saying that there are good and bad in every community. The majority of humans are good, always have been; otherwise, our species would not have survived.
November 19, 2007 5:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
To
Zain,
With all humility,there is a difference.One only has to have a sensitive heart to understand the pain and suffering of a innocent creature butchered for no fault but just because for its innocence and harmlessness.That is why the killers and those who save and love life should live separately and distantly. The great God has all his designs for those who believe in ruthless killings of his innocent creatures and those who donot.Partition or separatism was not his deed but it did reduce and minimise the subsequent killings inspite of the ongoing efforts to keep it going .Let us wait till he decides. Man is at fault everywhere all of us included.The lesson is just have free and independent,inquisitive mind.Let one not go astray just because some one said :Follow me:.
November 19, 2007 6:55 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Yes for sepration of Pakistan from India. This could be better when you rethink any thing after some gap of time. But at that time it was the reality that muslims donot want to live with hindus and so we have pakistan.
November 19, 2007 6:41 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Yes for sepration of Pakistan from India. This could be better when you rethink any thing after some gap of time. But at that time it was the reality that muslims donot want to live with hindus and so we have pakistan.
November 19, 2007 6:35 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Right!
The Cow was the reason behind the creation of India and Pakistan!
Now I've heard everything!
November 19, 2007 2:44 AM | Report Offensive Comments
TO
Zain
It is nothing in person.You find good kind,innocent people in all nations and communities and religions.Only thing was that all good people should have come togather on the basis of shared values of love and mutual sympathy rather than on ungodly ,inhuman dogmas of religious biogotry,hatred and personal gains.This exacly was the stand of Swami Vivekanand (if at all you have read about him) and the politicians like Subhash Bose.
Pakistan was basically demanded by those who never went to Pakistan but were never ousted.And those who didnot demand it like Punjabis were forced to get it.Any way by going from your kind of arithmatic you got the land mass in proportion to your than population in entire sub continent ,therefore the question of asking for 20% of additional land for adjusting another 200 million doesnot arise.Please keep birth control measures in mind.It is not our fault in case you keep on increasing your population to enslave your self once again.Any body from any where is most welcome in India since time immemorial but there is one condition that you must profess tolerace,peace equality of all religions and should be grateful to your ancestors,the great ancient saints of yours and above all the commitment for respect of all kinds of lives including the lives of mothers which nourishes all of us with milk.The mother which gives us milk throughout our lives,we are grateful to her and we rightly worship her but you respond by killing her and not stopping at that even eating that most innocent creatures of all only to spite your ancestors.The difference between us and you is that we admire cows for her motherly love whereas you kill it mercilessly.Who is right, killer and eater of mothers flesh or those who have given their lives to save it.I leave it to you and to God to think and do fair justice as an angel who doesnot require cows flesh just to live for a few moments.That exactly was the cause of partition.Had you not indulged in gruesome killing of this innocent animal,India would have never been partitioned and till the time this goes on no God and nature will everlet us live in peace.Unless we learn to respect each others feelings and emotions and learn to love each other with depth,sincerity we will be ruined by infighting and evil.Let us march head to the lofty ideals for respect and love of life and not head towards killing of all sorts. God is never on the side of killers .This is the ancient law.
November 18, 2007 7:48 AM | Report Offensive Comments
TO
Zain
It is nothing in person.You find good kind,innocent people in all nations and communities and religions.Only thing was that all good people should have come togather on the basis of shared values of love and mutual sympathy rather than on ungodly ,inhuman dogmas of religious biogotry,hatred and personal gains.This exacly was the stand of Swami Vivekanand (if at all you have read about him) and the politicians like Subhash Bose.
Pakistan was basically demanded by those who never went to Pakistan but were never ousted.And those who didnot demand it like Punjabis were forced to get it.Any way by going from your kind of arithmatic you got the land mass in proportion to your than population in entire sub continent ,therefore the question of asking for 20% of additional land for adjusting another 200 million doesnot arise.Please keep birth control measures in mind.It is not our fault in case you keep on increasing your population to enslave your self once again.Any body from any where is most welcome in India since time immemorial but there is one condition that you must profess tolerace,peace equality of all religions and should be grateful to your ancestors,the great ancient saints of yours and above all the commitment for respect of all kinds of lives including the lives of mothers which nourishes all of us with milk.The mother which gives us milk throughout our lives,we are grateful to her and we rightly worship her but you respond by killing her and not stopping at that even eating that most innocent creatures of all only to spite your ancestors.The difference between us and you is that we admire cows for her motherly love whereas you kill it mercilessly.Who is right, killer and eater of mothers flesh or those who have given their lives to save it.I leave it to you and to God to think and do fair justice as an angel who doesnot require cows flesh just to live for a few moments.That exactly was the cause of partition.Had you not indulged in gruesome killing of this innocent animal,India would have never been partitioned and till the time this goes on no God and nature will everlet us live in peace.Unless we learn to respect each others feelings and emotions and learn to love each other with depth,sincerity we will be ruined by infighting and evil.Let us march head to the lofty ideals for respect and love of life and not head towards killing of all sorts. God is never on the side of killers .This is the ancient law.
November 18, 2007 7:38 AM | Report Offensive Comments
TO
Zain
It is nothing in person.You find good kind,innocent people in all nations and communities and religions.Only thing was that all good people should have come togather on the basis of shared values of love and mutual sympathy rather than on ungodly ,inhuman dogmas of religious biogotry,hatred and personal gains.This exacly was the stand of Swami Vivekanand (if at all you have read about him) and the politicians like Subhash Bose.
Pakistan was basically demanded by those who never went to Pakistan but were never ousted.And those who didnot demand it like Punjabis were forced to get it.Any way by going from your kind of arithmatic you got the land mass in proportion to your than population in entire sub continent ,therefore the question of asking for 20% of additional land for adjusting another 200 million doesnot arise.Please keep birth control measures in mind.It is not our fault in case you keep on increasing your population to enslave your self once again.Any body from any where is most welcome in India since time immemorial but there is one condition that you must profess tolerace,peace equality of all religions and should be grateful to your ancestors,the great ancient saints of yours and above all the commitment for respect of all kinds of lives including the lives of mothers which nourishes all of us with milk.The mother which gives us milk throughout our lives,we are grateful to her and we rightly worship her but you respond by killing her and not stopping at that even eating that most innocent creatures of all, only to spite your ancestors.The difference between us and you is that we admire cows for her motherly love whereas you kill it mercilessly.Who is right, killer and eater of mothers flesh or those who have given their lives to save it.I leave it to you and to God to think and do fair justice as an angel who doesnot require cows flesh just to live for a few moments of life.That exactly was the cause of partition.Had you not indulged in gruesome killing of this innocent animal,India would have never been partitioned and till the time this goes on no God and nature will everlet us live in peace.Unless we learn to respect each others feelings and emotions and learn to love each other with depth,sincerity, we will be ruined by infighting and evil on one pretext or the other regardless of religious differences.Let us march head to the lofty ideals for respect and love of life and not head towards killing of all sorts of creatures. God is never on the side of killers .This is the ancient law.
November 18, 2007 7:08 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Anju:
Whether partition can be justified or not depends upon the situation on the looking at the Balkans violence for example...
But Indians continue to mislead - ther ewas no partition becasue there was no united India. The word India throughout history referred to the "indian subcontinent" as a region, not aas a nation or state. The region was comprised of several independent and different Kingdoms and civilizations , with different cultures, languages and even races. Just because the British "united" it into one colony does not automatically create a single "India".
By that reasoning, if someone conquered South East Asia, and united it into one colony for administrative purposes, would you now say that its "one nation"? The same with Europe - just because people look similar does not mean that they are "automatically one nation".
India was never partitioned, it was always a fragmented region, the British conquered it, and India and Pakistan were in fact a UNIFICATION of different princely states, autonomous territories and provinces into two large nations.
Stop parroting this lie of "partition".
November 16, 2007 11:17 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Partition of any country cannot be justified with whatever arguments. However, keeping the current and continuing chaos in Pakistan in mind, it seems, now, that the division of India in 1947 wasn't that bad an idea after all. Because, otherwise, today India too would have become a breeding ground and bastion for terrorism and extremism.
Also, India's annexation took place due to full-fledged support and motivation to Muhammad Ali Jinnah from people belonging to his "faith": Indian muslims, who conveniently got manipulated by that smart politician into believing about a paradise called Pakistan.
However, I sincerely feel very sorry for all those people from both sides of the Line of Control for all those horrible experiences they had to undergo during that most unfortunate phase in the history of India.
November 15, 2007 1:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Interesting how the majority of Pakistanis by and large are united in their Pakistaniat (or Pakistani hood) but the West and Indians insist that somehow Pakistan was a mistake. Err.. thats for Pakistanis to decide, and whatever the ills of our nation, as it struggles to evolve, we are quite happy to be an independent Pakistan.
By the way your question is misleading - there never was a united India - it was always a disparate collection of kingdoms, princely states etc. and the only "unity" it saw was as a "territory" conquered by the British -but then the British conquered a lot of the world -Is all of that supposed to be part of India too?
To Surender:
Pakistan would be quite happy to welcome the Muslims in India, at about 200 million out of I billion they comprise twenty percent of your population, so we'll also accept 20 percent of current Indian territory adjacent to Pakistan to make it a fair transition. The Muslims in India in 1947 were not living in trees you know - they owned land and assets, as do the ones now - a transfer of territory along with people is the fair thing to do - otherwise its just ethnic cleansing.
November 15, 2007 12:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
The story of partition of India is a story of human failure.Both sides of the dispute are wrong .Both have been equally misguided .People on both sides are basically intolerant ,unreasonable,hypocrites,self righteous and arrogant.One side appears to have the faith which they claim is the only true merciful religion while others are just Godless and hence deserve to be killed because they donot follow what they expect others to do and what they would like them to believe in.Pakistan has no system for introspection of their faults unlike Christianity which had the guts and martyrs to question the authority of the Church.The present Western society has a liberal attitude towards religious faiths except the inherent motive of gathering profit from everywhere.One of the reasons of partition was the memory of millions of Hindus killed by Moslem invaders.One of the rulers in Delhi killed thousands of Brahmins because they refused to convert,while others did and today the same people who converted from Hinduism under duress and sword are thw worst enemies of HINDUS.Another reason for partition was existence of hateful system of despising the poor and downtrodden under the rigid caste system,existence of inherent violent madness in spreading the jehadi way of intolerant thought process.Above all the discredit for spreading the communal virus goes to than political leadership and bad luck of the people of not possesing greatmen to guide their destinies.The fate of the people was decided by halfbaked false saints on oneside and diseased mind on the other side compounded by tuberculosis affecting the brainof one separatist leader who could breathe fire and put water on fire by his call for direct action of killing nonmuslims.
The partition of India was good for both the communities, muslims and non muslims but than justice demands all the Muslims should have gone to Pakistan and left India,the land of their dreams,the paradise.Till that happens Kashmir should be part of India and also the nonmuslims who have been killed or evicted from Kashmie too should be remembered.No one ever talks of the lives of nonmuslims living in Pakistan,who are living the lives worse than animals as they are abused and treated like that.They were used to be called dogs, ther women raped in rural areas on the pretext of insulting the religion of Pakistan. This has happened many times and has always gone unreported unlike in a soft state like India.God save this world from those who take their inspiration for going to heaven by killing innocent even in this era.
November 15, 2007 11:11 AM | Report Offensive Comments
The story of partition of India is a story of human failure.Both sides of the dispute are wrong .Both have been equally misguided .People on both sides are basically intolerant ,unreasonable,hypocrites,self righteous and arrogant.One side appears to have the faith which they claim is the only true merciful religion while others are just Godless and hence deserve to be killed because they donot follow what they expect others to do and what they would like them to believe in.Pakistan has no system for introspection of their faults unlike Christianity which had the guts and martyrs to question the authority of the Church.The present Western society has a liberal attitude towards religious faiths except the inherent motive of gathering profit from everywhere.One of the reasons of partition was the memory of millions of Hindus killed by Moslem invaders.One of the rulers in Delhi killed thousands of Brahmins because they refused to convert,while others did and today the same people who converted from Hinduism under duress and sword are thw worst enemies of HINDUS.Another reason for partition was existence of hateful system of despising the poor and downtrodden under the rigid caste system,existence of inherent violent madness in spreading the jehadi way of intolerant thought process.Above all the discredit for spreading the communal virus goes to than political leadership and bad luck of the people of not possesing greatmen to guide their destinies.The fate of the people was decided by halfbaked false saints on oneside and diseased mind on the other side compounded by tuberculosis affecting the brainof one separatist leader who could breathe fire and put water on fire by his call for direct action of killing nonmuslims.
The partition of India was good for both the communities, muslims and non muslims but than justice demands all the Muslims should have gone to Pakistan and left India,the land of their dreams,the paradise.Till that happens Kashmir should be part of India and also the nonmuslims who have been killed or evicted from Kashmie too should be remembered.No one ever talks of the lives of nonmuslims living in Pakistan,who are living the lives worse than animals as they are abused and treated like that.They were used to be called dogs, ther women raped in rural areas on the pretext of insulting the religion of Pakistan. This has happened many times and has always gone unreported unlike in a soft state like India.God save this world from those who take their inspiration for going to heaven by killing innocent even in this era.
November 15, 2007 11:11 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Um, no "Neutral".
Mike B. is definitely not a Muslim.
However, despite your misleading name, your blatant Islamophobia is showing!
You might want to tuck that in a little so it's not so obvious.
September 29, 2007 2:50 AM | Report Offensive Comments
This gentleman named MikeB is an Al Qaeda sympathiser, a propagandist for Pakistan's dangerous Islamists and probably a "Jihad" marketing agent. And this christian name MikeB is definitely not his real name, its just a pseudonym to disguise his Jihadi leanings. PERIOD.
September 19, 2007 6:06 PM | Report Offensive Comments
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