Readers’ Responses to Our Question (58)

I am looking at the General's past for clues on what he might do next.
He launched a 'strategic' operation in 1999 to capture heights of Kargil; an operation based on audacity indistinguishable from flawed judgement (Indians will not retake the peaks) and no apparent thought through endgame. His approach to governance increasingly appears to trace the same trajectory.
Then, when chips were really down, he blinked. It can be argued, of course, that Nawaz Sharif did. But it is unlikely that such a capitulation would have been possible without atleast tacit approval of Musharraf. I suspect that he would be yearning to blink again.
Oh well, he gave us a glimpse of that yearning already, did he not, when he stuffed all the bluster in some deep recess and reached out to the intransigent tribals of Waziristan and later to Ms Bhutto.
The trouble, of course, is that there are no takers for the 'blink' now. Justice Choudhary has gone to far on the Road of History Making to accept a compromise. The momentum of cheering and petal showering masses will not let him, even if he showed an incipient inclination.
Ms Bhutto knows that this is the worst possible time to strike even a cynical deal with the sinking General. No one else counts.
So where could he go from here? Obviously we will have to read the signs on a daily basis. A war with India (or even a provocation) does not appear viable. An issue with Afghanistan might be tried, as a desperate measure.
His frustration is boiling over as is obvious from the diatribe against 'Q' League's lack of support to him in these hard times. I know this is a wild one but if I was to put my money on anything, I would hazard the guess that after a tear-jerker public gesture, he might flee.
Watch this space....

The question should have been Will Pakistan survive? Or better stiil Will the two genocidal cults survive?

Like Pakistan the nation born out of hate will die out of hate so would these cults whose time are up. How long can they fool the world with their weird stuff? The two competing desert cults have done enough damage to this otherwise peaceful till they came along 2000 and 1400 years respectively. Already there signs the unthinking followers have started to think and soon there will be an exodus from these cults. I only hope Malaichi's prediction of the present Pope being the last but one is true! Let's pray to nature that the world be free from these genocidal cults who between them have killed 150 and 100 million people in 2000 and 1400 years respectively just to ensure that evryone believed in their utter lies.

Salamon,

Why do the hairs stand up on the back of my neck every time I hear someone invoking the words Justice, Democracy and the Rule of Law as if they were absolutes in America? These concepts are ideals we strive for and they are subjective concepts that change over time. Compound the subjective nature of these concepts with large buacracies that make mistakes on a regular basis and it behoves a person to use these concepts in context.

I wasn't arguing Libby wasn't guilty of lying to Fitzgerald, the FBI and the Grand Jury. Considering he was found guilty by a jury of his peers I'll take it at face value and believe they rendered the correct decision. The rule of law has been upheld by the conviction itself.

My issue was simply on the penalty phase of the trial. Now we're getting into the justice issue. What is a just punishment for the crimes committed by Libby? Walton believed 30 months in jail, $250,000 fine and an additional 2 years probation was just. I can respect his opinion, but I am certainly not obligated to agree with it.

Before I go and advocate incarerating an individual I apply a simple test. Is this person a danger to society and are they likely to commit the offense or other offenses again. In Libby's case it is very difficult to argue he is a threat to society. Yes, he impeded an investigation when he should have just kept his mouth shut. Will he ever be in a postion to commit this act again? No. Did he have any history of breaking the law before? No. Was he an individual who truly believed in public service and served? Yes. Did I like the man? No. Justice to me is not incarcerating this individual. Justice to me is finding a more appropriate way of him serve his sentence for his transgression. Community service comes to mind. Lots of community service comes to mind.

I'm just not in favor of taking non-violent first time offenders who are unlikely to commit another act which could be prosecuted and ripping them from their families and putting them behind bars. That's justice to me. The society needs to find a better way of handling sentencing besides incarcerating these type of offenders.

Let's look at what has happened and will happen to Libby for this conviction. He has lost his job and any chance of ever getting it back. He will lose his license to practice law. He will never hold another public service position again. He has been disgraced. He is now a convicted felon. Were it not for people like Fred Thompson he would have already filed for bankruptcy by now and who knows he still might. How much punishment does this man deserve for lying to Fitzgerald, the FBI and a Grand Jury? Even Valerie Plame's real complaint can't be with Libby, but it has to be with Cheney and Bush.

There has been an alarming tendency in this country lately to go after high profile people and incarcerate them. As much as it pains me to say it I'm beginning to think prosecutors feel they can make a name for themselves by doing it. I know I stopped locking my doors when that villanous Martha Stewart was in jail. I felt so much safer knowing she was behind bars. I also witnessed Nifong going after a "bunch of rich kids" at Duke without any evidence at all trying to make a name for himself. Now we have the dangerous Paris Hilton. Does she or doesn't she belong in jail or home detention? Ah, that's the question inquiring minds want to know. Not that anyone really cares, but they love the soap opera aspect of it.

Anyway, be careful of what you advocate because it might come to pass. Truly equal justice and a strict interruptation of the Rule of Law will make us all criminals (it's just about impossible not to break a law today on a regular basis). Then we'll all end up in jail and who will be left to tend to society?

Salamon

How right you are about US justice. Maybe the US should use the Pakistan model for the rule of law (Washington Times, June 2, 2007):

"...A Christian was sentenced to death for purportedly insulting Islam's prophet Muhammad, and a human rights activist yesterday urged Pakistan's president to spare the man's life...Younis Masih, 29, was arrested in September 2005 on the outskirts of the eastern city of Lahore after residents told police he made derogatory remarks against Islam and Muhammad.
On Wednesday, a court sentenced Masih to death under Pakistan's harsh blasphemy laws, which rights groups say have been misused against Christians since former President Zia ul-Haq enacted them in the 1980s to win support of hard-line religious groups..."

Tom W; & BobL Va:

With respect to Libby any action to ease the penalty by Presidential fiat will cause major disgust with the US Justice System ,especially after the "CHANGE in PARIS Hilton's" penalty. Justice is meted based on social status, not in accordance with law. Putting an END TO THE FICTION THAT DEMOCRACY IS DEFINED BY THE RULE OF LAW -- in the USA it seems bush prefers the rule of LAWLESSNESS .

MikeB:

Your observations on the war in Kurdistan are hopefully not prescient. Uncle Sam is totally powerless in the issue, for can not attack NATO member, Turkey, has dismally failed to control Kurdish and other "freedom fighters/terrorist" [view form USA vs view from Turkey/Iran].

This issue is the unintended consequence of the BUSh's WAR CRIME: Preemeptive War [if Uncle Sam can do it, the so can Turkey].

The New ME is being born: designed by the HOLLOW MEN [TS. Eliot] and resulting in the SECOND COMING {Yeats] - pity the uneducated leadership of the USA, ignorance of other cultures, ignorance of the limits of power - UNFORTUNATELY OTHERS PAY THE PRICE IN BLOOD for such monumental iognorance of the NEO-CON EGOMANIACS.

From Afganistan to Lebanon the fires are burning fiercer and fiercer, while the motto of the USA President and Congress is STAY THE COURSE. As an added attraction to this mess, WE THE BRAIN [dead] are picking on Russia and China, one a superpower, the other the banker.

I do believe that perhaps the USA needs a "revolutionary regime change" for the peace ot the world [if it not already too late].

While I do not expect it, I hope that the conflict will not enlarge is such manner that today's children of the WORLD will have to pay the price for this MONUMENTAL ERROR by an IGNORANT PRESIDENT of the USA.

What most "dictators" of the modern era do not realise is that the spirit of a people cannot be broken. It can be weakened but never broken. History is our lesson. Just look at all the dictators of the modern era for examples. Soon all the remaining ones will topple. The only hope is for the people to pick up the pieces quickly and learn from history and move on. I have visited Pakistan and the people is generally well-educated and very intelligent. They will survive this and more to come. The world will be surprised at its final outcome! Let us pray for the Pakistan people that not too much blood will be spilled.

BobL

Considering no one was charged with revealing the identity of Valerie Plame, then the whole investigation was about lying and impeding the investigation. Thirty months seems a bit much, but I agree with you that some time was warranted.

If Libby's appeal fails, my guess is that Bush will pardon him.

Musharraf, the wannabe Kamal Attartuk of the Ottoman Empire(Turkey). He shows to the West that he can make Pakistan a secular Islamic democracy like Turkey, however fails miserably to deliver.
Every one knows about all the failings of the general from Kargil, to overlooking the 911 plot originating in his backyard.

If Pakistan has to succeed as a modern Islamic Republic, it has to make some difficult choices.Musharraf can emulate Attartuk from Turkey and make the Pakistini Army the defender of the secularist constition of Pakistan.That means any Pakistani Political party, or a group of people trying to subvert the law, can be taken off the political office. Perfect way to dismantle the so called Madrassa system. Inform Saudi Arabia( biggest contributor of faith based donations) that only donations for social projects or programmes can be accepted, i.e. like building modern schools in the smaller towns or villeges of Pakistan to give childern hope towards life, and not laying their lives as martyrs for Islam. Ban all faith based political parties in Pakistan. Change the constition of Pakistan, to give women equal rights. Well this laundry list of things is a tall order, and the General can achieve them, if he wants to leave a positive legacy for his people and for the general Islamic world. He has talked a number of times about Islamic countries to take care of their populace. Well Sir , it is time,"THAT YOU LEAD, FOLLOW, OR GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY".

Musharraf, the wannabe Kamal Attartuk of the Ottoman Empire(Turkey). He shows to the West that he can make Pakistan a secular Islamic democracy like Turkey, however fails miserably to deliver.
Every one knows about all the failings of the general from Kargil, to overlooking the 911 plot originating in his backyard.

If Pakistan has to succeed as a modern Islamic Republic, it has to make some difficult choices.Musharraf can emulate Attartuk from Turkey and make the Pakistini Army the defender of the secularist constition of Pakistan.That means any Pakistani Political party, or a group of people trying to subvert the law, can be taken off the political office. Perfect way to dismantle the so called Madrassa system. Inform Saudi Arabia( biggest contributor of faith based donations) that only donations for social projects or programmes can be accepted, i.e. like building modern schools in the smaller towns or villeges of Pakistan to give childern hope towards life, and not laying their lives as martyrs for Islam. Ban all faith based political parties in Pakistan. Change the constition of Pakistan, to give women equal rights. Well this laundry list of things is a tall order, and the General can achieve them, if he wants to leave a positive legacy for his people and for the general Islamic world. He has talked a number of times about Islamic countries to take care of their populace. Well Sir , it is time,"THAT YOU LEAD, FOLLOW, OR GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY".

Musharraf, the wannabe Kamal Attartuk of the Ottoman Empire(Turkey). He shows to the West that he can make Pakistan a secular Islamic democracy like Turkey, however fails miserably to deliver.
Every one knows about all the failings of the general from Kargil, to overlooking the 911 plot originating in his backyard.

If Pakistan has to succeed as a modern Islamic Republic, it has to make some difficult choices.Musharraf can emulate Attartuk from Turkey and make the Pakistini Army the defender of the secularist constition of Pakistan.That means any Pakistani Political party, or a group of people trying to subvert the law, can be taken off the political office. Perfect way to dismantle the so called Madrassa system. Inform Saudi Arabia( biggest contributor of faith based donations) that only donations for social projects or programmes can be accepted, i.e. like building modern schools in the smaller towns or villeges of Pakistan to give childern hope towards life, and not laying their lives as martyrs for Islam. Ban all faith based political parties in Pakistan. Change the constition of Pakistan, to give women equal rights. Well this laundry list of things is a tall order, and the General can achieve them, if he wants to leave a positive legacy for his people and for the general Islamic world. He has talked a number of times about Islamic countries to take care of their populace. Well Sir , it is time,"THAT YOU LEAD, FOLLOW, OR GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY".

...All the connections, similarities, differences between the Pakistan situation and Turkey and Palestine...In all three places a wrenching away of a military wing toward modernity and secularism the more a regressive, Islamist tendency emerges...Proof of the violence of Islam that the militaries in Muslim countries must be wrenched from Islam? Or is it proof that modernity can be born only by an act of violence, by pitting a military against society with the purpose of wrenching it toward modernity? What does this bode for the world as a whole as civilizations close in on one another?

It was a fallacy to think that Musharaf is a man oriented towards secularism or modernism. The main reason for the overthrow of Nawaz Sharif govt. was the Kargil conflict. There in the heights of Kashmir Musharaf had already demonstrated his capability to deceive both Sharif, the elected PM of Pakistan, and also India. If you remember, Musharaf then had utilised Islamic terrorists and the Pakistan army in a clandestine and unprovoked and more importantly unsanctioned (by his own elected govt.) attack against India.
A man who was in bed with terrorists and fundamentalists in both Kashmir and Afghanistan, suddenly, after 9/11 becomes a moderniser and poster boy for secularism. Woe to anyone who believed it.
As to his promise to close Madrasas and expel foreign terrorists from Pakistan and another promise of his to crack down on jehadists - does anyone even remember them now? Jaish-e-mohammed and Lashkar-e-Tayyiba operate stil, under same or different names, unfettered and indeed probably aided by Pakistani intelligence agencies. Same with Harkat ul Ansar and Hizbul Mujahideen.
Truth is that these elements are far too powerful for Musharaf to even contemplate moving effectively against them. He might have made the right noises but had no intention of following up. Indeed they were helpful in maintaining his power base both in Pakistan and in America.
For Pakistan to be a truly functioning nation it has to move against these elements with the public truly behind the government. For that the govt. will have to do some peoper governing first, earn the trust of people, change laws to empower women, improve the education system to wean the young away from the madrasas and return power to elected officials.
Tall order indeed, but it is not too late for Musharaf to include popular politicians and bring in a coalition ministry and then gradually restore general elections which are truly fair.
If he does not seize this last chance future will be dark not only for Pakistan, but also for all of South Asia. Not to mention an unstable nation which has nuclear weapons and in which Jehadists and fundamentalists will be the dominant force. In fact a Wahabbi Iran with proven nuclear weapons with the most powerful elements openly admiring and hiding Osama bin Laden.
This is the worst case scenario, but I suspect what will happen is Musharaf will limp on till he loses all credibility and then will be replaced by another general or a unholy alliance of military and some of the Islamic parties favoured by the current ruling establishment or even the PML.

I have always thought that Musharraf has the most difficult job in the world. He must pander to U.S. needs while making sure the U.S. doesn't get too close with India, all the while making sure he's not too close with the U.S. or be labelled a stooge. Quite a precarious path.

While he did come to power as a U.S. backed Pakistani General by overthrowing a liberal leader who had socialist leanings (same song different verse) which probably makes him a stooge, he has also been, from my distant perspective, a benign dictator. Who else could have held the country together? Not Bhutto. I feel Pakistan needed someone like Musharraf in the immediate post 9-11 era.

But now the only way that he is to survive (I think I mean politically) is to have an election. Let the people decide. The initial rush of feelings about U.S. vs. Muslim world is over and things are relatively peaceful with India. Now is the time to see if Musharraf can be a legitimate leader. Afterall, U.S. backed Generals are a dime a dozen.

I think parvez Musharraf's rule has come very close to an undignified end.He hasnt been able to do his job efficiently for the salary he receives from the united States.Talban have resurfaced,usama is still strong and NATO commanders are finding it difficult to do their job.He is helpless in front of the uprising in the heart of the capital,Isamabad.Lal Masjid Imam is running a state within a state.The issue of chief Justice have triggered a natoinwide movement spearheaded by bar.He blundered into taking his unjustified anger on independent broadcasting tv channels,journalists and and public at large.

The united states should learn a lesson from betting the wrong horse and help restore jenuine democracy.In this way she can win the hearts and minds of people who are denied their basic human right since 1958.

I think parvez Musharraf's rule has come very close to an undignified end.He hasnt been able to do his job efficiently for the salary he receives from the united States.Talban have resurfaced,usama is still strong and NATO commanders are finding it difficult to do their job.He is helpless in front of the uprising in the heart of the capital,Isamabad.Lal Masjid Imam is running a state within a state.The issue of chief Justice have triggered a natoinwide movement spearheaded by bar.He blundered into taking his unjustified anger on independent broadcasting tv channels,journalists and and public at large.

The united states should learn a lesson from betting the wrong horse and help restore jenuine democracy.In this way she can win the hearts and minds of people who are denied their basic human right since 1958.

Mushareff will not survive, if we bail out on Iraq. The rest of the mideast that has ever shown pro American leanings will lose total faith in our promised support. Pakistan and Afghanistan will go into panic stricken free fall. Egypt and Turkey's governments will find themselves in very tenous positions.

As I have been predicting for some time, Turkish troops, at least 20,000 (and some estimates make it more like 50,000) have just invaded Iraq. Ostensively, the reason is to attack Kurdish separatists and guerrillas. But, most of the Kurds have been fighting Arab terrorists and have never been into Tuekey. The real reason is to eliminate any possibility of a free and independent Kurdistan and a naked grab for the northern oil fields. Opposing them are Iranian irregular troops and some elements of IRan's regular army, along with Kurdish regular troops. This, boys and girls, is the beginning of the end. A full scale war will ensue from this with the new Ottoman wannabees fighting Sunni Fundimentalists and Shia. Thank you George Bush (and the Democratic Congress that inherited this mess and did absolutely nothing exit, instead playing 2008 Presidential politics with it....and immigration - history repeats itself...Nero fiddled as Rome burned.).

Tom Wonacott,

I don't really know enough about Pakistan to comment, but I did want to drop you a note on Libby. Even as a staunch liberal who detests Bush/Cheney I was saddened by the sentencing. I see no useful purpose putting him in jail for 30 months. His life is already basically ruined. As a convicted felon he'll lose his law license and will never again be able to hold a government position or even work for a company that has government contracts. He has a family to support and the sentence imposes unnecessary hardships on them. Putting Libby in jail for two and a half years isn't going to make me feel safer nor do I believe it will deter other administration officals, regardless of political affiliation, of crossing the line in the future.

He has already paid a high enough price for his transgression and jailing him for 30 months is overkill. I'd would have felt a lot better seeing him get 30 days in jail (just to reflect on what he did), 5 years probation and community service.

Musharraf mian will survive whther he is supported by america or not.in present time america needs more pakistan support to face the heat of war of terrorism,presenc of america in asia and show face to other muslim country.the present time disturbance is creation of musharraf mind just to fool america.by shaking cheif justice he called bull to fight and reason behind is that to show the america about the challnges that mian sahib facing so america and CIA stop giving lesson to musharraf mian.other hand musharraf mian know that interest is mother of american relation so want to extract as much as from american coffer in the name of terrorism.and he also know that he is not going to complete the work assigned to him so,best way is to give new drarama on international scene.
other hand in islamic countires coming of democracy means coing of anti american people in power and a challnge to american interest.the case of democratic nawaz sharif who made nuclear test.if nawaz would not there no test would be there from dictator like musharraf.so in my opinion there is no challnege to musharraf.
other hand one year is left in next aemrican president.the trend of american president shows that new president will foloow pacific policy so make it time pass with bush ,musharraf created this problem of chief justice so no insistance from america.
IN pakistan elite group which is of feudal mentality knows that without two A pakistan cannot be a player in asia.while third A now in the ahnds of islamic party to work as balance at the time of need.
so i donot think he has any exit point till he himself give the position of army commander to any one.vcause Army is life line of pakistan political system.

From the days of SEATO/CENTO Pakistan has been playing the game of " BALANCING " India for the Military Industry complex of USA. The military got in return the power to rule the people of Pakistan(ZIA,MARCOS,SUHARTO ETC). The ruling elite of Pakistan has also another agenda orchestrated by SaudiArabia which they were following in Afghanistan but got punctured after 9/11. Now also they are working covertly for cheney/Prince bandar through Jundoallah and inflicting casulaties in Iran.They have betrayed the maximum number of alqueada/taliban operatives(Musharaff's own creation) except those who escaped through helicopters from Kunduz and got 4.5 billion dollars in blood money.
With Neocons blundering in russia,Iraq, american military industry complex desperately needs Musharaff and so he will EASILY SURVIVE THIS CRISIS.

As long as America support General Musharraf he will remain in power regardless of what people wants. Having strong governement in Pakistan is not US interest or any where else for US interest. It is easy for US make use of weak Governements... Pakistan, Jordan, Egypt etc are very common example and we can add Afghanistan, and Iraq as well.

There is a popular saying that Pakistan is run by 3 "As": Allah (God), Army and America! (Not necessarily in the same order!)

Currently Pervez Musharraf seems to be enjoying the confidence of Army and America, so he will survive! However, "Allah ke Bande" (children of God – citizens of Pakistan) do not seem to be in favor of the General anymore. Therefore, in order to survive – even in the most literal sense of the word – Gen. Mush will have to continue to cooperate with Mr. Bush!

PG

"Can President Musharraf survive as the leader of Pakistan if he continues to cooperate with the U.S.?"

Musharraf cannot survive without cooperation from the US. The Pakistani military is in control of the country, and US aid (mostly military support for the "war on terror") is keeping the military well funded (approx. $5.6 billion in aid since 2001). The military, in general, supports Musharraf.

The general population wants a return to true democratic elections, and wide-spread demonstrations resulted from the suspension of independent minded Chief Justice Mohammad Chaudhry with whom Musharraf, apparently, had some disagreements. Popular Benazir Bhutto, head of the relatively liberal Pakistan's People Party and currently in exile, has said she will return in late 2007 adding pressure for Musharraf to step aside.

Musharraf is in a real pressure cooker. Congress is talking about cutting off aid (military reimbursement for the war on terror) because the US has seen little results. There has even been some reports of the Pakistan military firing on coalition forces in pursuit of The Taliban into Pakistan.

Every once in awhile, Musharraf throws the US a fish such as the report in the New York Times this morning of the arrest of two men involved in the murder of Daniel Pearl, but Pakistan remains the world leader in the training of terrorist. The Taliban supported by Pakistani terrorist and foreign fighters (including Al Qaeda) have made strong headway in Afghanistan.

The US should pressure Musharraf to step aside for the elections in 2007, and support the probable winner Bhutto. SHE is very much a moderate by Islamic standards and her recent column in the Washington Post (March 12, 2007; Page A13) was meant to reassure Americans of her support for the "war on terror".

It is not a issue if musharaf survive, the issue is bigger than that. US need musharaf, I truly beleive that Pakistan is progressing economically which indirectly bother lot of friends too. If USA try to do something unusual and let this nation fall into the hand of islamic exremist, it will create an alarming situation throughout EU and the rest of the world. The majority of pakistan beleived that, now they need US more than ever, since the possible nuclear agreement with rival India. To keep the balance between india and pakistan US must do something positive, especially the issue of Kaskmir is settled, I beleived 50% of extremism will be eliminated and ofcourse same applied for the people of palestinian 90% of extremism can be eliminated from the world. Also pakistan must be given a chance to help Iraq situation and let US move out of there with respect. I can add something positive if Kashmir and palestine issues are resolved, I think pakistan want to emerge as a true Islamic nation and may drop nuclear ambitions.

It is not a issue if musharaf survive, the issue is bigger than that. US need musharaf, I truly beleive that Pakistan is progressing economically which indirectly bother lot of friends too. If USA try to do something unusual and let this nation fall into the hand of islamic exremist, it will create an alarming situation throughout EU and the rest of the world. The majority of pakistan beleived that, now they need US more than ever, since the possible nuclear agreement with rival India. To keep the balance between india and pakistan US must do something positive, especially the issue of Kaskmir is settled, I beleived 50% of extremism will be eliminated and ofcourse same applied for the people of palestinian 90% of extremism can be eliminated from the world. Also pakistan must be given a chance to help Iraq situation and let US move out of there with respect. I can add something positive if Kashmir and palestine issues are resolved, I think pakistan want to emerge as a true Islamic nation and may drop nuclear ambitions.

It is not a issue if musharaf survive, the issue is bigger than that. US need musharaf, I truly beleive that Pakistan is progressing economically which indirectly bother lot of friends too. If USA try to do something unusual and let this nation fall into the hand of islamic exremist, it will create an alarming situation throughout EU and the rest of the world. The majority of pakistan beleived that, now they need US more than ever, since the possible nuclear agreement with rival India. To keep the balance between india and pakistan US must do something positive, especially the issue of Kaskmir is settled, I beleived 50% of extremism will be eliminated and ofcourse same applied for the people of palestinian 90% of extremism can be eliminated from the world. Also pakistan must be given a chance to help Iraq situation and let US move out of there with respect. I can add something positive if Kashmir and palestine issues are resolved, I think pakistan want to emerge as a true Islamic nation and may drop nuclear ambitions.

It is not a issue if musharaf survive, the issue is bigger than that. US need musharaf, I truly beleive that Pakistan is progressing economically which indirectly bother lot of friends too. If USA try to do something unusual and let this nation fall into the hand of islamic exremist, it will create an alarming situation throughout EU and the rest of the world. The majority of pakistan beleived that, now they need US more than ever, since the possible nuclear agreement with rival India. To keep the balance between india and pakistan US must do something positive, especially the issue of Kaskmir is settled, I beleived 50% of extremism will be eliminated and ofcourse same applied for the people of palestinian 90% of extremism can be eliminated from the world. Also pakistan must be given a chance to help Iraq situation and let US move out of there with respect. I can add something positive if Kashmir and palestine issues are resolved, I think pakistan want to emerge as a true Islamic nation and may drop nuclear ambitions.

It is not a issue if musharaf survive, the issue is bigger than that. US need musharaf, I truly beleive that Pakistan is progressing economically which indirectly bother lot of friends too. If USA try to do something unusual and let this nation fall into the hand of islamic exremist, it will create an alarming situation throughout EU and the rest of the world. The majority of pakistan beleived that, now they need US more than ever, since the possible nuclear agreement with rival India. To keep the balance between india and pakistan US must do something positive, especially the issue of Kaskmir is settled, I beleived 50% of extremism will be eliminated and ofcourse same applied for the people of palestinian 90% of extremism can be eliminated from the world. Also pakistan must be given a chance to help Iraq situation and let US move out of there with respect. I can add something positive if Kashmir and palestine issues are resolved, I think pakistan want to emerge as a true Islamic nation and may drop nuclear ambitions.

It is not a issue if musharaf survive the issue is bigger than that. US need musharaf, I truly beleive that Pakistan is progressing economically which indirectly bother lot of friends too. If USA try to do something unusual and let this nation fall into the hand of islamic exremist, it will create an alarming situation throughout EU and the rest of the world. The majority of pakistan beleived that, now they need US more than ever, since the possible nuclear agreement with rival India. To keep the balance between india and pakistan US must do something positive, especially the issue of Kaskmir is settled, I beleived 50% of extremism will be eliminated and ofcourse same applied for the people of palestinian 90% of extremism can be eliminated from the world. Also pakistan must be given a chance to help Iraq situation and let US move out of there with respect. I can add something positive if Kashmir and palestine issues are resolved, I think pakistan want to emerge as a true Islamic nation and may drop nuclear ambitions.

It is not a issue if musharaf survive the issue is bigger than that. US need musharaf, I truly beleive that Pakistan is progressing economically which indirectly bother lot of friends too. If USA try to do something unusual and let this nation fall into the hand of islamic exremist, it will create an alarming situation throughout EU and the rest of the world. The majority of pakistan beleived that, now they need US more than ever, since the possible nuclear agreement with rival India. To keep the balance between india and pakistan US must do something positive, especially the issue of Kaskmir is settled, I beleived 50% of extremism will be eliminated and ofcourse same applied for the people of palestinian 90% of extremism can be eliminated from the world. Also pakistan must be given a chance to help Iraq situation and let US move out of there with respect. I can add something positive if Kashmir and palestine issues are resolved, I think pakistan want to emerge as a true Islamic nation and may drop nuclear ambitions.

.............,,,,,,,NO,,,,,,,,...................

it is up to the pakistanis - and not based on israeli protectionist hyperbole left over from wwii ineffectually imposed on arab countries.

Pakistan, shall eventually become what would be another Islamic badland and a graveyard of all the customs that the civilized world knows. For, Pakistan survives on a hate-India/hate-anything-un-Islamic agenda. This is complemented by the AAA syndrome: Allah, America and Army. Pakistan has nothing intrinsic, and its biggest export is Islamic terrorism. Even its nuke program is stolen from Holland by Dr. Abdul Qadir Khan. The problem is not with General Pervez Musharraf. It is with a very large section of the general people of Pakistan who are mostly uneducated and radicalized, all poised to board the Jihadi omnibus. Just look at the recent Lal Masjid fiasco in Islamabad. Muslims clerics and many hardline groups have called for an implementation of the barbaric Sharia laws else they have promised to abduct and kill innocent Pakistani citizens, who are Muslims. How can the western world look the other way when all that Pakistan has proudly achieved is to jihadize its rank and file ? Pakistan needs to be recolonized and brought under UN rule for indefinite time. It's creation reminds one of a Mohammedan menace.

He may fall. If so, don't be surprised to see US Special forces attempt to capture all of the nukes in country. It may be the most daring military action of the century.

He may fall. If so, don't be surprised to see US Special forces attempt to capture all of the nukes in country. It may be the most daring military action of the century.

in order for "ANY" governmet to survive in pakistan they have to be american "puppets' otherwise they go down!!!

in order for "ANY" governmet to survive in pakistan they have to be american "puppets' otherwise they go down!!!

With no support from master , and his pockets full of green and all the religious fanatics on the rise, he will need some time to spend all that cash, It s time for Paviz to retire to canary islands :)

With no support from master , and his pockets full of green and all the religious fanatics on the rise, he will need some time to spend all that cash, It s time for Paviz to retire to canary islands :)

Simply put: Musharraf going down is a death-nail for the War on Terror efforts in that region. The vaccum will be filled by Taliban-esque elements. The only way he can survive and give some stability to the US Ops in that region, is to hold free (wink wink) elections and allow whoever wins to be the Prime Minister (~ Bhutto or whoever he allies with) and delegate himself as President as part of the deal. This is a highly unlikely outcome, but one that is the superior option under the circumstances.

If Musharraf goes down, Indian military will have to move in, invade and seize Pakistan with full support of US military in that region. With nukes abound, political instability with extremist elements floating around is not an option for either India or the US.

(1) One needs to understand the history of Pakistan. Culture of Pakistan is a family oriented system just like many villages in India from which it received separation in 1947. Rather than building friendly relationships via cultural exchange and trade, Pak leaders chose a military rule, and encouraged Islamic fundamentalism to rise through Saudi funded Madrassas that trained youth to hate people of other nations, cultures and faiths. Kashmir would have been a non-issue, if Pak has allocated national resources for education of their masses, and moved towards democracy. South Asia would have been the greatest buyer of Pak produced goods and services.

(2) Military dictators, including Musharaf, have always ruled like Mogul kings and Pak has remained economically backward nation at the mercy of rich Moslem nations like Saudis who support Madrassas. Many countries like China and western nations have manipulated Pak's inherent hate towards India and help retain military regimes.

(3) With this historical background, like China, Pak has an obligation to get bi-lateral trade agreements with nearby countries without making Islam and Kashmir as an issue. If Indians can do business in Middle Eastern countries, they can help establish infrastructure and viable financial system in Pak. There are more successful Moslems in nearby countries than in Pakistan. They have achieved their successes w/o any help from rich Moslem countries or western countries.

India's growth rate is high similar to China. One is a democracy and other has communist regime. Pak has neither. US now want Pak to go towards Democracy and Pak has lost 60 years to accept democracy since its partition from India.

(4) As an American, I believe it is a hard task for Musharaf to lead Pakistan in social changes-economic growth issues, and spend less on nuclear development and military spending w/o a bi-lateral agreement with India. Musharaf must make sure that cross-border infiltration of Pak based terrorists into India is not a part of his ISI/military regime or foreign policy.

(5) Like Iraq, Pak is also experiencing regional and tribal conflicts, and it is hard to unite people of Pakistan under one flag or one religion. Pak has sold nuclear technology to Iran, N. Korea which are identified as threats US interests. Like Bush, Musharaf's influence on American people has diminished to low 20%. Some 40% Pakistani population is under 15 years old and they are being trained to hate people of other faiths, India, U.S., England, and Israel in their school system. Musharaf is now caught between Rock and hard place. He will lose election to Pak's People Party, or be eliminated by his countrymen. Pak has a nuclear power and US has armed them with F-16's. So, Americans need to watch the transfer of power closely because it is now a safe heaven for Bin Laden and his followers.

(1) One needs to understand the history of Pakistan. Culture of Pakistan is a family oriented system just like many villages in India from which it received separation in 1947. Rather than building friendly relationships via cultural exchange and trade, Pak leaders chose a military rule, and encouraged Islamic fundamentalism to rise through Saudi funded Madrassas that trained youth to hate people of other nations, cultures and faiths. Kashmir would have been a non-issue, if Pak has allocated national resources for education of their masses, and moved towards democracy. South Asia would have been the greatest buyer of Pak produced goods and services.

(2) Military dictators, including Musharaf, have always ruled like Mogul kings and Pak has remained economically backward nation at the mercy of rich Moslem nations like Saudis who support Madrassas. Many countries like China and western nations have manipulated Pak's inherent hate towards India and help retain military regimes.

(3) With this historical background, like China, Pak has an obligation to get bi-lateral trade agreements with nearby countries without making Islam and Kashmir as an issue. If Indians can do business in Middle Eastern countries, they can help establish infrastructure and viable financial system in Pak. There are more successful Moslems in nearby countries than in Pakistan. They have achieved their successes w/o any help from rich Moslem countries or western countries.

India's growth rate is high similar to China. One is a democracy and other has communist regime. Pak has neither. US now want Pak to go towards Democracy and Pak has lost 60 years to accept democracy since its partition from India.

(4) As an American, I believe it is a hard task for Musharaf to lead Pakistan in social changes-economic growth issues, and spend less on nuclear development and military spending w/o a bi-lateral agreement with India. Musharaf must make sure that cross-border infiltration of Pak based terrorists into India is not a part of his ISI/military regime or foreign policy.

(5) Like Iraq, Pak is also experiencing regional and tribal conflicts, and it is hard to unite people of Pakistan under one flag or one religion. Pak has sold nuclear technology to Iran, N. Korea which are identified as threats US interests. Like Bush, Musharaf's influence on American people has diminished to low 20%. Some 40% Pakistani population is under 15 years old and they are being trained to hate people of other faiths, India, U.S., England, and Israel in their school system. Musharaf is now caught between Rock and hard place. He will lose election to Pak's People Party, or be eliminated by his countrymen. Pak has a nuclear power and US has armed them with F-16's. So, Americans need to watch the transfer of power closely because it is now a safe heaven for Bin Laden and his followers.

It is most unfortunate that it is the educated class of Pakistan without understanding the true meaning of democracy and freedom of speech are causing so much of chaos and damage to thier own country.Majority of common man have no interest in street agitation and have stayed away with opposition's oppurtunistic attempt to grab power and restart thier exploitation and corrupt rule again. Musharra's government has contributed so much for the progress of country that Pakistan is emerging as a real economic power.Democracy is not like a bus which if you miss you don't have another chance. There are no two opinions that democracy is the best political system which no body in Pakistan has understood better than musharaff himself .His contribution in establishing democracy at gross rootlevel is unparallel but every country has its own requirements.In a country where parliament has always been dominated by feudal lords and Political parties never have elections within thir ranks with few exceoptins and where party leadership is transfered on heriditary basis and once appointed leader of a plotical party it is perpetual with no term limits, democracy needs time to evolve. Pakistan nedds economic prosperity and education first which Musharraf's government is targeting very well, rest of things can come later. I am sure muharraf will emerge even stonger with present crisis as he has full support of common man. M.Shahid Kamal

For Fifty years, Pakistani rulers have tried their utmost to keep the common people away from breathing into a fresh democratic society. We can easily argue that basic institutions in Pakistan such as judiciary, have not played their roles responsibly and that is why we are facing problems but the fact of the matter is that Pakistani rulers have never allowed basic institutions to function in a free manner. Majority of Pakistani people and the ones who were running the institutions were not trained to know the difference between democracy and dictatorship, between fair and rigged elections, between basic human rights and the imposed rules, between free civil society and a corrupt military society. Now, fortunately the MEDIA in Pakistan is getting competitive and it’s exposing the difference between right and wrong to the wider areas in Pakistan and is educating people even in rural areas and enabling even uneducated public to form opinions based on facts, not just lies and propaganda. Unfortunately, now we can see that military rulers are attacking media and is busy in imposing bans just to keep public in dark as much as possible. First victim of attack was a judge, then lawyers and now its media's turn to face the music and that certainly leads to the last days of any kind of a ruler. President Musharaff never tried to create the political vacuum by bringing in new faces and therefore when Musharraf is gone we will continue to see the old faces.
So far there is no fresh breathing for Pakistani people.

What about the bomb?

The majority of Pakistanis are not hostile to the US (or to the UK where many have family), they seek peace with India and with the world, there is no tradition of radicalism outside the tribal areas; in short Pakistan could be a good democracy and international citizen;

However, the army and ISI will have to retain independence. Political instability in Pakistan could jeopardize the security of the nuclear arsenal and hence the integrity of the current controlling agencies (army and security services) would have to be guaranteed before Pakistan returns to democracy. So, the army and security services would have to remain 'guarantor of the state'; more than the Turkish military they would have to retain independence from the democratic institutions. The alternative could well be that the army and ISI would create worse situations in Kashmir, the border areas and Afghanistan and that politicians would require their assistance to can control them. Worst case scenario is that parts of army and ISI would arm radicals with progressively more dangerous options and that WMD would find their way to terrorist organisations.

Pakistan needs mature parties. In the previous democratic cycle the parties were heavily populist; they won election by making emotional appeals and making too many impossible promises; populism fundamentally undermines democracy which is why it was so terribly easy for Musharraf to seize power. Pakistan also needs mature politicians; Nawaz Sharif's inability to control events in the Kargil war, his battles with the judiciary and his inability to compromise with Musharaff and the armed forces lead to his and democracy's downfall. He played too dangerous a game without understanding the rules.

It will probably take generations for a Pakistani democracy to gain full control over its army, nuclear arsenal and security services but I sincerely hope they'll prove me wrong.

The only reason for Pakistan's existance is because of India. The colonial muslims did not wish to live under a kiffir rule and therefore created the islamic republic of Pakistan. However they were still colonial master - see the subjugation of the Bagladeshis after the partition.

However, the colonialists created a new subjugative power over the indiginous rule in the tribal regions. The only resolution is another partitioning of Pakistan per ethnic lines.
Even at that it may not work. This is a thousand year war, starting with in initial muslim conquest going to the Persian and Mughal conquest. - And we are trying to resolve it?

the white house will make sure that musharraf survives at least until after the next election. simply stated: musharraf knows way to much about bin laden and al-qaeda as well as the money network pre-afghanistan war. for the dictatorship to fall at this time or in the near future for that matter would be highly inconvienent for bush and cheney, but would also inconvienence poor friends like unocal,delta oil of saudi arabia and chevron. where will their pipeline(tap) be if the govt. of pakistan fails? the u.s. and musharraf both have placed themselves in a highly vulnerable position to their own detriment. the oil "cat" is out of the bag so to say, and the civilians of all of the countries of central asia smell a rat. after all, will the people themselves really benefit fron the "benevolence" of their respective dictators, or suffer under the yoke as those in such oil producing countries as nigeria? musharraf will fall eventually whether be by politics or violence but not quite yet. the moment has not ripened to fruition. but when the next american presidential rolls around we will have entered the "danger zone."

A very under estimated fact here in the states is the degree of importance Musharraf's acquiescence to the US was in aftermath of 9/11 and the beginning of Bush's War on Terror. I personally believe Musharraf's claim that Richard Armitage threatened to bomb Pakistan back into the stone age if Musharraf didn't comply. Without Pakistan "being on board" the invasion of Afghanistan would have looked very different if in fact Pakistan hadn't come first. Musharraf has always seemed to be a reluctant participant in Bush's war and does just enough at the right times to look as if he's doing his part and keep face with the administration. While the bones he throws in the US's direction may keep Bush out of his country for now, his continued compliance with the US will in the end be his downfall at home.

Musharraf doesn't have a chance of surviving his association with Bush (or the American government or Amercian busines, in general). What is particularly awful is the entire West's being hated. They hate our businessmen, who they think of as corrupt Crusaders, quite as much as they hate Bush. And it is NOT going to something that a regime chance in the U.S. will fix, either. The entire Islamic world is spiralling out of our control, out of our sphere of influence. In the near term, either Arab and Islamic leaders will pull back from the West or they will be overthrown. This is what will happen, not just in Pakistan, but in Saudi Arabia, Hordan, Egypt, Yeman, Indonesia, everywhere. We are, to put t bluntly, screwed.

I have a lot of friends from Pakistan. My family used to live in Sweden, where there is a huge community of Pakistani businessmen and expats that regularly go home. These are the educated and wealthy of that society and THEY detest Musharraf. What does that tell you? The religious extremist movements are growing in leaps and bounds becasue of rampant corruption, lack of infrastructure (basic things like water and electricity and food), brutal and capricious police police and military actions, and mutual hatred and intolerance between the various communities. We are living in a fanasy world if we think there is some magic quick fix for this.

Are people so naive that they think that Americans donot know why People of Pakistan are protesting and what'd happen one Musharraf is removed and Army is sent to do what it has been hired to do?

Americans surely know what they are doing, they always helped and assisted Army in Pakistan in the last 60 years and its no coincidence that huge amounts of money are going to them directly.

Americans have simply outsourced their battle tasks to Pak Army, just the way they were outsourced to Northern Alliance in Afghanistan and Kurds and Black Water in Iraq.

Under Musharraf, Pak Army has been reduced to mercenaries and worse against its own pakitanis citizens who provide themeverything. What a shame!

Down with Generals!

The question presumes that it is Musharraf's relationship with the United States that is his biggest political liability in Pakistan. It is actually a very distant third.

First is his position as an unelected general under whom Pakistan has not known notably greater prosperity or progressed appreciably toward resolving its many domestic problems -- and who has given every indication that he doesn't intend to give up office. Musharraf has had (and any Pakistani leader would have) a terribly difficult task, perhaps an impossible one; the point is that given the way he took power, all the blame for things Pakistanis see headed in the wrong direction in their country gets tracked back to Musharraf. No leader not able and prepared to rule through naked force could survive this indefinitely. Musharraf, to his credit, is not such a leader.

There is something else here that I don't think Americans appreciate. Among the most extreme Islamist types in Pakistan Musharraf is disliked even more for his attempts to reduce tensions with India than for his friendship with the United States. The focus of Pakistani Islamist enmity, at least since the Russians cleared out of Afghanistan, has always been India. The plain on which that enmity has found expression has been Kashmir. Musharraf may not be able to prevent terrorists moving from the Northwest Territories to Afghanistan and back, but he can and has inhibited terrorist attacks in Indian Kashmir, and sought better relations with India generally.

I don't know this for sure, but my guess is that most Pakistanis actually approve of this policy direction. They are not such fools as to have any doubt what a disaster war with India would be for their country, and war with India was what Islamist terrorism supported by Pakistani intelligence in Kashmir was leading Pakistan toward. But, the people in Pakistan who don't approve reducing tensions with India dislike the policy intensely, as intensely as some Arabs dislike the idea of reducing tensions with Israel. They are the source of the security issues that require Musharraf to govern as he has.

Musharraf's relationship with the Bush administration is not popular, but if that were his only problem he'd be in office forever.

Raakin writes: "... "democratic"(!?) Musharraf..." Written by ORL. I would like to challenge that, Musharraf was never a “democratic” leader, but a dictator."

Raakin, I meant US protégé Musharraff was as "democratic"(!?) as were other US protégés like the great "humanistic" (!?) Greek colonels (1967), the "patriotic" (!?) Vietnamese rulers in the South, during the Vietnam conflict, Chile's US militarily educated "hero" (!?) Pinochet, as were most of South and Latin American "leaders"(!?), etc., as now are the "leaders" of Afghanistan, of Iraq, and most US supported "leaders" in North Africa and in the Middle-East.

Having said that, you will readily admit, I hope, that I had done my best, with quotation, exclamation and question marks, to make it as clear as I could that I was using the word "democratic" derisively.

Please don't now remind me Pinochet was no hero, the Greek colonels no humanists, South Vietnamese authorities no patriots, and most South and Latin American "leaders" US appointed.

Please be nice to me: It is enough that I recently had to listen to someone insisting the Americans had not lost the Vietnam war...

Mr Rashid,

While Musharraf has gotten himself into a series of crises, mostly of his own making, I am unable to fathom the rationale for your assertion that he will lose power by the end of the year.

His back is to the wall. But Washington appears determined to see him last another term, perhaps in some form of co-habitation with Ms Bhutto. Second, while we can't take it at face value, the recent meeting of the Corps Commanders (which he has stuffed) suggests that the Army does not think it is time yet for him to be jettisoned. The only rumbling we've heard is a Stratfor report that claims Brig (retd) Ijaz Shah is being blamed (or made a scapegoat) for being a 'mole' within the Musharraf regime. More than a challenge to Musharraf, it appears to be one intelligence agency trying to blame another for the fiasco.

Washington remains silent. It's election time, and the Democratic candidates have come out in favour of Musharraf. So, at least until the US elections are over, we won't see a change in US policy towards Pakistan, which I contend is already in rigor mortis.

Perhaps you could substantiate your belief in a subsequent post.

No, I don’t think he will survive because he is messing up all over region, from policies to "special" groups to help keep the dictator in power. For Instance he is suppressing the exact same media which he allowed be created to show the "free press" of Pakistan. To Musharraf all that matters to him is to stay in power for another 5 years and after on...like I see these elections coming up in November, aren’t really going to be elections, but is going to be a "media" circus to try gaining some "brownie points for the dictator". These upcoming elections are going to be rigged, or either be canceled. If Pakistan wants to move on to a democratic state, then I recommend to have these upcoming election results be verified by a 3rd party. I bet you Musharraf wont do that ;) .

Seriously, be realistic, he even created a "PEMRA amended ordinance 2007". The PEMRA has been given powers to seal any building where it believes the illegal transmission is aired (I wonder what these "Illegal transmissions can be?).

The PEMRA also has the power to cancel the license of any TV channel and can forfeit the broadcasting equipment for the said reason (Free Speech?).

The Ordinance called the Pakistan Electronic Media Regulatory Authority (Amendment) Ordinance, 2007, shall come into force at once (Act of being despite).

Also one thing I read in this discussion was “The fact of the matter is that after supporting "democratic"(!?) Musharraf for so long, world "democratic"” Written by ORL.

I would like to challenge that, Musharraf was never a “democratic” leader, but a dictator. A guy who mixed personal expenses with Governmental expense. 1.) He took over office in improperly manner, gaining reelection in a improperly manner, and maintaining fear within the poor class while kissing up to the rich class.

And I can go on for hours stating by he was a bad leader domestically, but a good "doll" figure internationally. This is why the Bush Admin does not want him to loose....hmmm...

I am sure after reading this you may assume I am his opposition party supporters, but I am not. I have no favor for Bhutto, Nawaz Sharif, etc… All I am calling for is elections which are verified by a 3rd party.

All indications in the past three months point to the break down of a Goverment with no moral right left to rule.

There are enough indications to show the people in Pakistan are 'fed up' of this rule that has no basis except to cater to a few Generals, Beaurocrats and politicans.

The Generals should ponder why the people are out protesting in the streets. The answer is quite obvious and the moment they acknowledge publically ,they will do a favour to their country and make it easy for themselves to exit with respect of the instition still generally intact.

I am not sure whether the General's survival has anything to do with the US or not. The current protests against him seem to be directed more at the fact that he is still a General and shows no signs of giving up his army uniform or for that matter the presidency. Most of the protestors supporting the suspended Chief Justice are attacking Musharraf for not keeping his word and resigning as army chief and for trying to subvert the judiciary at the same time. Musharraf might have added some more fat to the fire by restricting the independent TV channels recently. If Musharraf were to leave and truly fair elections held, a centrist party would probably win.
This political trouble has very little to do with the US. The US gives itself too much credit if it thinks people in Pakistan are tiring of Musharraf becuase of his association with the US and not because he has made a number of major political blunders recently

Possibly, but that is not so very important. Merely surviving (and at what cost?...) has never been, anywhere, a sustainable political solution.

The fact of the matter is that after supporting "democratic"(!?) Musharraf for so long, world "democratic" preacher USofA is now having serious misgivings and a few second thoughts about its protégé... The latest proof of that lies in the reappearance of "democratic"(!?) Benazir Bhutto on the political scene (back from surviving on black bread and water in Dubai and London...). There was even a substantial article in the International Herald Tribune, t