It's the fourth anniversary of the Iraq War. Looking at Iraq and your own region, why do ethnic and religious groups fight each other? And what is the solution?
Posted by Fareed Zakaria on March 20, 2007 10:58 AM
would you try to give a rattle snake a treat or back up and shoot him with a shotgun? your answer to that question is how you should answer the hamas wimp question!@!!!!!
As far as ethnic groups fighting each, I think Chris G covered it pretty well.
As far as religious groups fighting each other: the majority of religious disputes are actually ethnic disputes. Shia versus Sunni is really Persian versus Arab (in the larger world), and one tribe versus another (in Iraq were sunni and shia are divided along tribal lines).
When the religious and ethnic lines are not the same, conflict will occur when their is a large proportion of unemployed young men who feel their world view is threatened and want a cause and an outlet for their frustration. However, the critical issue is not religion, its un-employment. You will never never ever in modern times see two adjacent religious groups fighting each other when the employment rate and relative quality of employment is high. Religion is merely an excuse because it provides a dividing line so that the other side can be blamed for ones problems. If it wasn't religion, some other dividing line would be devised, rich/poor, long-time resident/recently arrived, sharks/jets, and so on. In my opinion, it is pretty naive to blame religion for any significant amount of conflict and war that is going on in the world. The underlying economic and ethnic causes are much more compelling.
Short answer: selfishness, willingness to ensure the security and vital resources of oneself and ones tribe/clan/family at total expense of other tribes/clans/families.
Long answer: Look at the entire history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, the one that begins around 1880. Before that time, Palestine was practically empty. British officials estimated between 70,000 and 120,000 permanent residents comprised of Moslems (mostly), Jews and Christians. Visitors described the region as a wasteland. After 1880, Jews and Moslems began pouring into that region almost simultaneously.
At first, the vast majority of them might not have trusted each other, but were happy to live together in peace. It was later in the 1920's and 1930's that very small minorities of both groups began committing atrocities in order to stir a conflict up (France and England didn't help things much as they sometimes used these occurrences to further their own political ends in the region). This in turn led to revenge killings, which led to more revenge killings and so on until by the end of World War 2, large, well armed groups from both sides were spoiling for fight. Technically, Palestinians started the official war with the siege of Jerusalem, but a large group of militant Zionists had actually been pushing for it so they would have an excuse to establish a secure homeland at the expense of anyone else. In some cases, the Israeli army drove Palestinian civilians from their homes. In many cases they did not. However, in the vast majority of cases, Parisians fled into Jordan an Syria without seeing an Israeli soldier at all because their fellow Palestinian militants told them the Israelis would kill them when they arrived and Jordan and Syrian actually told them they would host them and protect them until the Jews had been defeated. However, the Jews were not defeated. The Arab nations saw this war as an injustice and an affront to Arab pride and dignity. Therefore, they refused to grant the refugees opportunities for citizenship and integration. That would be admitting that they had lost the fight. Therefore, Palestinian refugees remained poor, angry, and without a country or sense of belonging and of course they put all the blame on Israel (who wouldn't in their situation). Ironically, as soon as Israel solidified its gains, all the surrounding Moslem nations forced most of the Jewish population out of their native Arab countries and into Israel. The number of Jews forced out of Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt and Jordan after the Israeli war of Intendance is approximately equal to the number of Palestinians forced out (when you are talking orders of magnitude.
Anyway, so that is how it happens. Two groups nervously sharing limited resources and power. Their is mistrust and bigotry among a minority. The idiotic minority of both groups pick a fight with each other and someone dies. Everybody gets involved and pretty soon it’s a never ending conflict. Sometimes in times of very limited resources (like drought) you don’t even have to have an idiotic minority, just crazy starving, afraid people.
As long as men such as David Kuttab & David Makowsky show us that none should automaticallly hold expectations of agreement with our own peceptions (i.e.our "world), but rather, peacefully explain our own deliberately-reasoned contemplations--there is an alternative to warfare.
( "Military Budgets" are not synonymous with "Defense Budgets", are they? )
Jacob Jozefs: ISRAELI APOLOGY TO ALL PALESTINIAN PEOPLE :
Wa Salam & Sholom.
Greeting Brothers and Sisters.
The S.O.L.U.T.I.O.N. to most of the Mid East (Internal/External Conflicts) POLLUTION is E.V.O.l.u.t.i.o.n. and NOT REVO.lution! See what I see Brothers & Sisters here on Space-Ship Momma Tellus?
I am a "SABRA" and my Father (expired) was in the HAGANA (The Resistence) up to 1955 (When our Prophet Albert Einstein died.
You see my dear Humates, my Father was very upset with Menachin Bahgen from the URGOON faction. So your infighting is the same CHARRA (s..t).
But the beautiful thing is that there is, In Shalah, HOPE. Please do not squander, by infighting and disrespect for each other which is equal to HUMANITY.
PALISTINE NEEDS A BRIDGE & TUNNEL AUTHORITY instead. They need to connect both end through this mechanism so GAZA & West BANK will be linked as one. So here is my gift to you.
behold: This is the main focus and priority. The will be Jobs, Commerce, Happy people, Economic growth. And best of all your own chance to prove yourselves not to the world, but to and among yourselves as a [secular} UNITED PALESTINE.
So Please Brothers and Sisters give peace a chance and your selves as a National & Soveriegnty!
I;m attaching something for your critique if any. Please let keep intouch. SHOOKRON. PEACE HUGGS KISSES HANDSHAKE L/o/v/e/ for neighbors & U.N. et al. GOOD LUCK!
I think, all problems in the east middle are the religius, because the knoledge in the people history is based in saint land, 2000 years ago Joshua told us, in this place born a new civilitation, the catholic church, has been power in the world by the vatican bank.
This article points to another reason why war is fought [sometimes by others than the group, who gives the reason] a vulnerable class of society is scared SH*TLESS, due to the faith/poltics encouraged scaremongering. Is it not ENLIGHTENING that the students in a repressive society ask DANGEROUS QUESTIONS, while in the LAND OF THE FREE [USA] the students are scared, and do not ask dangerous questions.
Perhaps this article points to the reason why even after 4 years of expensive, bloody, endless war there are still approximately 30% of the USA wants to continue the war,
A sad note on USA society's so called future leaders. Mr. Ignatius should investigate this sociological pathalogy.
AMviennaVA
"Many interesting comments. But I think the answer is relatively simple: People fight for Land and its resources: those who want it fight to get it; those who lose it, fight to gain it."
If it were only that simple. 9-11 had little to do with land. In most wars, acquiring land is just a byproduct of the reasons for fighting. It's peoples beliefs in certain things (like certain religions or political ideas) and non-beliefs in other things (like a pluralistic society or democracy). The battles resulting from the Cold War were more about the ideas than actually wanting the land. Same with WWII, US revolution, civil war. It's the ideas that are the problem. The US, for instance, believes in individuals personal freedoms. Those countries that are communist don't. Those ideas are incompatible, with each side believing they are right.
Dear Brother & Sisters on Space Ship Tellus & elsewhere; ATTENTION ALL HANDS:
There is nothing like a good Philosophy right? So:
LET HISTORY BE OUR JURY!
Before you start please say, “Thank You my Holy heart Beat. Praise SOURCE ONE. Peace n Love to ALL MANKIND”. Note: To “Pray” means to SPEAK to G-d and to “Meditate” is to LISTEN to the Lord. So Happy every Day folks. :-)'
P.R.E.A.M.B.L.E:
Today, the struggles and infighting over a name for IT (G-d) will slowly but surely go POOF-TIME, and then and only then will there be Genuine F.R.E.E.D.O.M of THOUGHT on SPACE-SHIP MOTHER EARTH and beyond for HAPPYNESS, WORLD PEACE, HEALING OF THE NATIONS, VERY LONG LIVES, ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT in GRIDARIAN DEMOCRACY via the Global VOTARY ASSOCIATION(S) and enjoyment via our FUTURE BOUND MINDS and for our SPACE FORTH ACTIVITIES & beyond.
(((((((((((((((THERE IS A MIRACLE IN OUR GENESIS)))))))))))))))
(1) In the Beginning of the DUE TO BE: (Utero)
ECLAT said, In my TRANSFINITY (reality) Let there be TEMPERATURE (Time) and, let therein and thereof, Space Forth ALL my PHOTONS (Light), and G-d saw that this was RIGHTEOUS.
(2) Then ECLAT said, let there be my HOLY HEART BEAT, so that I may spread thyself in ALL the lights and in ALL places via my vibrations as testament of my eternal LOVE .
(3) And ECLAT said, Unto my ether, I Command there be scattered from my abode ALL my 127 ATOMICS, and ECLAT saw that this was pure as the matter of TRUTH.
(4) Then ECLAT said, Let there be my ETERNITY AVOIDING LONLINESS so that I may Create, Destroy, and Recreate again and again ALL the Inanimate things, and the Almighty saw that this was indeed GOOD. THEN:
(5) ECLAT said, Let there be a UNIVERSE and my CONSTITUTION therein and thereof , as thou LAWS OF THY NATURE, and transcribe forever my Clauses so that thee creature may always know that nothing shall be external their Dominion nor can anyone escape my BRILLIANCE BURSTING FORTH. (Space Expansion from Absolute HEAT towards Absolute COLD) THEN:
(6)ECLAT said, Let there be TRANSFINITY (Reality) so that ALL may form via my 9 Dimensions, as thyself, and ECLAT was HAPPY. THEN:
(7)ECLAT said, Let there be my MAGMATRICULATION so that out of this WARMTH there may arise LIFE forms via thy CHEMISTRY so that I will adjoin, move about and EVOLVE into a variety lot as my ANIMATE creatures, and they shall have my Inanimate things as objects within their temporary WORLD for them to enjoy, at my WILL so they may know me as thy SELF.
ALL this CHEMISTRY (draw/erase/redraw) took 4.98 Billion LIGHT YEARS of HUMATE time to create..
SECRET: The "DUE-TO-BE" is where ECLAT contemplates WHAT TO DO NEXT. All this mysterious work takes place in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th Dimension. This place is EXCLUSIVE TO G-D ITSELF. Now, this 5th Dimension is the very place or spot where our known "Visible Light Spectrum" emanates from and this is also the very INTERFACE ,where Lord G-d ITSELF, bridges our REALITY of IT through us. Important: IT is the here, the now & the thereafter where LIFE/Birth is ITSELF released . And where Death Returns!
Hence, We & the Microbial do coexist and of course we are BORN, LIVE & DIE as Carbon Life-Forms, only in the 6th, 7th, 8th & 9th dimensions NOW! This is your NEW PHILOSOPHY. Praise THE LORD! Eeeee Haaaa. Holy No Man. :-).
“life is a Miracle & there is Zero Sin about being born in IT. Did You know, There is Life in Light?
(((((((((((((((((((WE NEVER DIE)))))))))))))) Just be Good In This LIFE FORM. PEACE/LOVE.
AND THIS IS THE BEGGINING OF THE END FOLKS! :-)' CooooooooL
Virtually all wars are about some combination of a fight over resources, the vanity of self-aggrandizing leaders, and promotion of the interests of powerful elites. Religion and ethnicity serve the same function for warmongers that alcohol serves for a wife-beater. They cloud the judgement, encourage sloppy, uncritical thinking, and enable behavior that would be unthinkable if the individual were evaluating the situation rationally. I don't know what the solution is, but getting religion completely out of government would be a good start.
Many interesting comments. But I think the answer is relatively simple: People fight for Land and its resources: those who want it fight to get it; those who lose it, fight to gain it.
It would be easier to express,what are not the solutions. (i.e.)Militarism,Arrogance,and disdain, for the opinions, of the world at large,than to honestly express that, which may really ameliorate, the quagmire, into which this illegitimate administration, has plunged the world . Obviously the honest debate of concerns, of all parties, involved, is manditory. To think this mislead administration has the hubris to foist such an arrogant policy onto the world stage,is almost to much to comprehend. It's morally irresponsible, and a humanitarian failing, of immeasurable proportions. GOD HELP US;the sooner, the better.
I am sure my comment will be deleted but here goes: The US will not be able to talk to palestinians becasue any congressman/senator that supports talking to them will not be elected next time over, MONEY from new york 'people' will go to their plitical opponents and the meda attack machine will go on full swing. Ask former congressman Paul Findley 'They dare to speak out'.
The palestinians want their freedom and they want US help to get there, what they dont understand is
the US has to gain its freedom first.
I am sure my comment will be deleted but here goes: The US will not be able to talk to palestinians becasue any congressman/senator that supports talking to them will not be elected next time over, MONEY from new york 'people' will go to their plitical opponents and the meda attack machine will go on full swing. Ask former congressman Paul Findley 'They dare to speak out'.
The palestinians want their freedom and they want US help to get there, what they dont understand is
the US has to gain its freedom first.
I have read and searched thou a lot of the comments before posting this. The feelings expressed are truly genuine. As are those of the panelist.
However, it one very critical thing seems to be missing. Certianly in light of the fact this discussion is being held shows that man has gotten very little from his idea of hoe to live in peace.
If everyone wants to know why humans fight you need only go to the very many "claim" to be a "guide" in their lives. I used quotes to separate how many say one thing but turn to doing something that contradicts their very claims.
Yes, men fought in "Bible Times" as one panelist put it. It seems this is somehow written to give us an understanding but it leaves out the true "why" this fighting and bloodshed occurs.
If its your claim that you "believe" in the Bible, then look at the Ecclesiastes 8:9. This has been true from the time Adam and Eve choose to rebel against God. Genesis 3:1-19
Take note too of the instigator of that murderous lie that they both followed. Satan now holds sway of the entire earth. Its it any wonder that people are doing and have done some of the most horrible things to one another? 2 Corinthians 4:4
Consider this...even though humans have progressed from the Jesus time they are still agitated and glutted with grief and pain at their own hands. We can send electronic messages to one another while we travel from one spot to another, fly to far away places in record times and even our cars are highly sophisticated computers on wheels and yet we all are still in fear of each other because of the way a person looks, talks and believes and this leads to hatred, injustice and murder.
And what of Religion? Its interesting to note how Jesus looked at his own people who wad been in a covenant relationship with God to uphold this ways. John 8:42-47
And very simple test to prove your beliefs are even stated by Jesus himself..."By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit" Mathew 7:16-18
Today men are displaying exactly what was foretold in the Bible..."But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away. 2 timothy 3:1-5
These attitude permeates every structure of human society today. Each time you turn on the news you see a glimps of this in some way shape and form.
And try not to resort to what is listed as a warning to us all..."For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning." 2 Peter 3:3-4.
Note that beside the sad behaviors mentioned above, Jesus also spoke of another "sign" that would tell us something very important...
"And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet.
For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.
"Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU, and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."
This is where we all are right now. So it should not come as a suprise to any of us that those who again, "claim" they follow such higher tenents as the found in the Bible but belie that claim with their actions.
But regardless of this higher forces are at work. Fist, Satan is the one who instigate this "air" (Ephesians 2:2). So no matter how many debatres, laws or wars to stop wars man have, Satan is the one behind the cause of much of mans suffering.
Second, because man has chosen to either totally ignore God's ways or has watered down his word, humans fall victim to their own mismanagement of their lives and this frequently turns men to kill others in personal, racial, social and international crimes like war and terrorism.
third, established religion has NOT done anything to help man live lives free from this. In fact the very opposite is true as it, especially the more popular religions, are implicated in mass bloodshed through mankind's existence. It favored crusades, inquisitions, injustice upon the masses, immorality, slavery, both World Wars, civil strife and unrest, genocides just to name a few.
Imagine if those who practices religion actually followed 2 of the most important cammands uttered by Jesus?
"And one of them, versed in the Law, asked, testing him: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets." Mathew 22:35-40
Even if that fails to drive the point home the one of the most famous illustrations Jesus gave us is of the "good Samaritan". An illustration showing how men who wanted to serve God as they "claimed" should treat their fellow men. Luke 10:29-37.
How many wars would be fought if those were truly followed?
Forth and finally, God has purposed that man WILL live in peace. The very fact that his word the Bible Has survived and in massive quantities to this day shows that he will indeed make sure that those of us who long to be peaceable with our fellow man will, sometime very soon (remember the signs mentioned above) see that as a reality.
The Bible lays out for us the theme of God's kingdom ruling vs those of humans, (which was never the purpose to begin with) in his word.
A book that many "claim" to believe in and follow but that each of us can go to and then actually PROVE the right way to worship God for ourselves.
The first part of your question, i.e., "Why do ethnic and religious groups.." makes the second part "..fight?" redundant. An identification with any one group to the exclusion of others entails the possibility, and often likelihood, of relegating the other to a supposedly inferior ethnic, or moral, etc. level. I believe that human conflict arose before any major religious or ethnic development, and is an essential part of the human condition. It does "pigyback" on religion and ethnicity, though, giving the "lizard brain" a chance to express itself through socially-sanctioned violence. Movements that are aware of the tendency to violence in group identification, and that make the conscious effort to transcend sectarian division, have a chance of producing human beings operating at a higher level. I think that trans-national religions such as Buddhism, and super-national political movements such as the European Union have the best shot at developing our potential as real human beings, and not just members of a "tribe".
The real question is, Why do the rich kill? It was Bush and his oligarchic friends who fomented this war, and it is the rich who are profiteering from it. Religion and ethnicity are symbols, but the rich are the key to the underlying violence and corruption in this world.
Subject "a" says his Holy Book entitles his people to a certain piece of land "for all of his generations." Subject "b" says, "no, my different Holy Book says that my people and my generations are entitled to the same plot."
A person who worships in spirit and in truth does not need a particular tract of land and some faiths could be practiced for a lifetime, without a pilgrimage, on the moon.
A former Professor once answered the question with one word, "Nationalism." Her expansion of that word was echoed in John Lennon's song Imagine, in which it is suggested that all of the world's resources be distributed to all of the world's people.
Biblical Christianity does not require any piece of land, any pilgrimages and any annual rituals - only a moment-by-moment faith in the Perfect Resurrected One and two Great Commandments - the first being vertical.
It has been that way since the earliest hominids began walking upright. There is an innate need to dominate, it seems. Before religion it was tribal affiliation that was the sticking point. If you had two groups of people that had no religion, and were identical in look, with the exception of hair color, they would use that as an excuse to fight.
The real question is: Can man overcome what appears to be trait buried in his genes.
I am sorry for the masculine, but the word person didn't seem to fit my purpose here.
This is becoming tiring: the only questions asked in PostGlobal are about the USA: "are we great ?", "why do they hate us ?", "will the rest of the world forgive us about Iraq ?", "how is my belly button looking ?", "Is Russia stronger than the USA ?"
Aren't you interested in really GLOBAL questions ? Like:
"How are the industrialized countries going to survive without cheap fossil sources of energy ?"
"Should mankind build more nuclear reactors to face global warming ?"
"Why is Africa always such a poor continent ?"
"Should mankind explore the Moon and build there a permanent base ?"
"Is parliamentary democracy as the West has known for 2 centuries still a good political system ?"
There is an actual God of war called Aries,
it is interesting, He says man "needs" Him.
But not anymore, it would seem we're past that.
Did you know 30 percent of war victims are children?
Also another large percentage are women.
What does this tell you? What does it tell you that this isnt even known about generally speaking? Its true, check it out.
"War will end when leaders cease to act like children"- some quote I remember..
Also, I for one refuse to participate in any group that allows genocide. This is why I have dropped out of the human race a while ago. I do not wish to dirty myself so.
Read the Nobel laureate Amartya Sen's "Identity and Violence - The Illusion of Destiny", and you would understand why people fight in the name of religion, region, ethnicity, etc. ... The solution is to be aware of, adopt, believe in and be comfortable with our multiple identities: ... e.g., a person can be an Indian, a Hindu, a literate, a fan of cricket, an admirer of Shashi Tharoor's works, respect Ratan Tata, love Formula One (Michael Schumacher !), from New Delhi, have brownish-green eyes, a firm believer in an individual's rights, a leo, ... etc. etc. and be a human being at the core! ... Simple :)
It was Charles Darwin who noticed that similar species would evolve at varying phases.
Our closest relatives in nature the chimpanzees also exhibit the same differing phases in evolution.
However there is only one creature on this planet that has the creative ability to change his environment for better or for worse. The evolution of the human condition has seen the transitions of societal formats. Tribal communities into fedual communties into capitalist communties (urban). All pushed forward by technological change which were pushed forward by challenges to human survival. The camel in the desert to the elephants in South Asia to the horses used by the Mongol hordes, to the space shuttle. Man evolving to show his supposed mastery over nature (and other men).
Economics,politics and culture are all part of human social formats. Religion is part of evolving culture.
In todays world where rapid advances in communciation have shown most of the worlds populations that life can be better the planet is in for interesting times.
The late Pope said it best. "El pobre no pueden esperar" The poor cannot wait. Where 18% of the worlds population consume 80% of the worlds resources, the 80% is slowly realizing it and it wants it share.
World views are clashing and as the speed of information is traveling at light speed. However understanding of what one knows becomes problematical.
Human power to animal power to a carbon based economy and who knows what comes next?
Dilithium crystals and the Starship Enterprise and its prime directive not to interfere with planets that are lower on the evolutionary ladder.
Fighting/killing is part of the very nature of what it means to being a creature. One of the earliest developments in the genesis of life is mobility --- a move towards light and/or food source.
All organisms need light and/or food source; we therefore all inch our way toward those goals. Overcrowding caused mobility acceleration: the faster developers got to the food source before and grew and develop even faster and stronger.
This still is the most superseding part of our make-up, as a species. Evolution and time don't change this "repitlian" drive to move faster, to grow bigger and stronger (and "smarter"), to seek better and more food and space. Nor does the extremely recent development of symbolic expressions (e.g., language and the myriad things that oral and written language is able to impart us as a species).
Indeed, language (including what's called reason) was invented and used, to a very great degree, mostly as interpretive tools to "explain" and to rationalize away our competitive and violent-based nature... What we call "ethics" and "morality" are, for the most part, accidental features of symbolic expressions, very much like arts, mathematics, etc.
Superstitious beliefs like religions were invented to give hope to the hopeless and weak. They were also stories to explain why some are naturally stronger/masters and others weaker/slaves. They serve as soothing balms, on the one hand, and scare-tactics, on the other, to achieve social consensus.
Ultimately and paradoxically competition, war, violence, and death --- including germs, bacteria, viruses, and other deadly diseases and how they play their roles --- are integral parts of what we call the cycle of life: all are necessary for the functionality of the various ecosystems as well as for life itself, from the atomic/molecular level, to the cellular/organelle level, to the human/animal level, and finally to the stellar level....
This is not a silly attempt at "philosophy"; it is a mere observation of what people like to call "reality."
(Escapism is not found only on the "silver screen;" it is also found in what we call "rationality," a trick we all --- WE ALL --- use when we get up on our soap respective soap boxes and moralize and intellectualize and explain away and "justify" our purpose for being the way we are, and why others, especially the "bad guys," are the way they are, and if they'd just listen to us, we're all be happy...
A major split occurred in Islam over a thousand years ago. "Sunnis and Shias differ in doctrine, ritual, law, theology and religious organisation".
The violence between Sunnis and Shias predates Saddam's rule in Iraq, but Saddam's rule magnified the Muslim split and relegated Shia Muslims to second class citizens even though they represented the majority of the population.
Saddam ruthlessly tortured, murdered and oppressed the Shias (and Kurds) during his twenty(+) year rein of terror. During the “oil for food” program, the Sunnis preferentially received more food, thus the Shias were burdened with a higher percentage of deaths due to the International sanctions. The US encouraged the Shia to revolt after the Gulf War and then watched as Saddam crushed the rebellion killing thousands of Shia (and Kurds) in the process.
When the US invaded in 2003, the Shia (and Kurds) were liberated from the oppression of Saddam's rule. The Shia and Kurds welcomed the overthrow of Saddam, although the Shia (rightfully) are against the US occupation of their country. Over eight million Iraqis voted in three elections to elect a government that is ruled primarily by the MAJORITY Shia Muslims. The Shia, RIGHTFULLY, have been placed in the position of ruling the country. There are only two countries in the world with a majority Shia population - Iran and Iraq.
Is the US responsible for the violence that we see in Iraq on a day to day basis? EMPHATICALLY NO. The US is caught, just as the average Iraqi citizen, in the middle of a regional conflict pitting Shia and Sunni interest. Iraq has become the regional flash point for this conflict. The violence between Sunnis and Shias has the mark of a decades or centuries old rivalry (sometimes deadly) fueled by Saddam's severe oppression, torture and genocidal murder of the Shias. There is a large (regional, in my opinion) resistance to the new Shia rule in Iraq.
Saudi Arabia, and other Sunni countries such as Egypt and Jordan are alarmed by the rise of Iranian influence in the Middle East. They are also concerned over Iran’s development of nuclear weapons, and have threatened to begin their own nuclear program. Clearly the Sunni ruled countries are supporting the Sunni insurgency in Iraq. Iran is supplying arms and finances to Sadr and other militias to counter the Sunnis. The recent attacks on Shia pilgrims in Iraq was carried out by SAUDIS. The Shia marched defiantly in the face of these brutal attacks.
“…More than 115 people were killed in Iraq Tuesday when two suicide bombers blew themselves up among pilgrims making their way to a holy city for one of the most important days on the Shia Muslim calendar…”
Finally, whoever believes that the US invaded on a divide and conquer strategy is not viewing the region correctly. In fact, divide and conquer was exactly the strategy of Zarqawi, the Al Qaeda leader in Iraq who planned his attacks against Shia Muslims to start a civil war. After the invasion, the US has been unable to control the surge in violence between the different Muslim factions. The civil war is clearly not in the interest of the US.
The typical, average, market dwelling Iraqi citizen has born the brunt of the violence from Sunni insurgents and Shia death squads.
Yes why do they fight. This is something the British learned of the weakness that some communities have for each other. The British used this tool to go on their conquest of the world by getting the different ethnic groups to fight with each other and then go on to conquer the nations. Example: In India beef and pork are things that are religious for Hindus and Muslims. Getting the story spread that the bullets were greased with pork and beef resulted in a mutiny. Who helped to quell the mutiny were the Sikhs, of which I belong to. I am not proud of what the Sikhs did in this instant. Is this all being repeated now too by the world powers, something that has been learned from the British? I am sure this will be a good debate.
For next week, why not pose as your topic The Nature of Free Will in the Hopeless or maybe The Origins of Consciousness? What presumption for two pop journalists to choose such a topic in such a forum. Daddy having left you a box of new pencils and some ribbons from St. Albans does not make of you a philosopher. Mr. Ignatius, write another potboiler (the remainder tables are in need of books to stack as bookends) and Mr. Zakaria, save your right-wing blather for the aged Sunday morning viewers.
Religion is like any other "ism" that soceities use to organize themselves in a hierarchy and differentiate themselves from the "Other". It is the inherent duality in human nature that searches for commonality with fellow human beings as well differences in order to maintain its own self.
Yes why do they fight. This is something the British learned of the weakness that some communities have for each other. The British used this tool to go on their conquest of the world by getting the different ethnic groups to fight with each other and then go on to conquer the nations. Example: In India beef and pork are things that are religious for Hindus and Muslims. Getting the story spread that the bullets were greased with pork and beef resulted in a mutiny. Who helped to quell the mutiny were the Sikhs, of which I belong to. I am not proud of what the Sikhs did in this instant. Is this all being repeated now too by the world powers, something that has been learned from the British? I am sure this will be a good debate.
Yes why do they fight. This is something the British learned of the weakness that some communities have for each other. The British used this tool to go on their conquest of the world by getting the different ethnic groups to fight with each other and then go on to conquer the nations. Example: In India beef and pork are things that are religious for Hindus and Muslims. Getting the story spread that the bullets were greased with pork and beef resulted in a mutiny. Who helped to quell the mutiny were the Sikhs, of which I belong to. I am not proud of what the Sikhs did in this instant. Is this all being repeated now too by the world powers, something that has been learned from the British? I am sure this will be a good debate.
Yes why do they fight. This is something the British learned of the weakness that some communities have for each other. The British used this tool to go on their conquest of the world by getting the different ethnic groups to fight with each other and then go on to conquer the nations. Example: In India beef and pork are things that are religious for Hindus and Muslims. Getting the story spread that the bullets were greased with pork and beef resulted in a mutiny. Who helped to quell the mutiny were the Sikhs, of which I belong to. I am not proud of what the Sikhs did in this instant. Is this all being repeated now too by the world powers, something that has been learned from the British? I am sure this will be a good debate.
Yes why do they fight. This is something the British learned of the weakness that some communities have for each other. The British used this tool to go on their conquest of the world by getting the different ethnic groups to fight with each other and then go on to conquer the nations. Example: In India beef and pork are things that are religious for Hindus and Muslims. Getting the story spread that the bullets were greased with pork and beef resulted in a mutiny. Who helped to quell the mutiny were the Sikhs, of which I belong to. I am not proud of what the Sikhs did in this instant. Is this all being repeated now too by the world powers, something that has been learned from the British? I am sure this will be a good debate.
All higher order social behavior is taught and learned. The cultural norms and attitudes that define religous and ethnic groups are not innate. Hate groups do not exist in a state of nature. While it is true that in primitive societies a competition for scarce resources may have created a social need for self defense and offense, not all societies created feuds lasting millenia. I am not sure why. Once you are programmed with your tribe or cultures beliefs, you will act accordingly. Sunni and Shia, Christian, Jew, western capitalist and soviet communist all were programmed to know and respect their beliefs, hold them to be the best, recognize contrary belief as a threat, and be willing in many cases to defend your way of life to the death. The Iraq war was created through the spread of fear of terrorists, the threat to the american way of life. After 9-11 this was easy to use to scare people. When leaders choose to manipulate the beliefs of their followers, to spread fear, and fan flames of us vs them, the programming takes over. Rationality will not be a useful appeal to people who believe that they can die as a martyr for such a culturally or religiously noble cause. If you can go to paradise by killing someone defined as your enemy, you can not be reasoned with. the programming is complete. Laws against murder and other violent crimes do not stop all such transgression. But they do help to keep a lid on many individual conflicts that in many lawless areas escalate to death. Ironically it seems that the only conflict that contained itself was during the Cold War with Mutually Assured Destruction. It seems that when two somewhat rational actors end up in a standoff, they refrain from conflict. The problem with religious fanatics is they believe they will be better off in their afterlife, and find it reasonable to die for the cause. It is not clear whether a nuclear conflagration in the middle east would settle things, or simply escalate further. Bottom line, if you cant deprogram people from this nonesense, there is no solution.
A local psych prof proposed the question: what is a terrorist and the mindset they have? At the end of her discourse it was evident from a scholarly point of view, there is no conscensus. It doesn't make sense, from one suicide killer another is born as if ancestral. As if a land was claimed from conflict. Take N Ireland, a history I know well, from my ancestors. Imagine the hatred in Gaza, Iraq or the Irish counties of Ulster...Spring and summer bring a season of the apprentice, the passing of tradition from old to young. Will the Orange parades march this year again without significant violence? The IRA ceasfire seems to be holding, the guns are silent as a new devolved unity is to be given the chance of overdue civility. I do not condone violence of any sort, my weapon of choice is a pen or pencil. Could this perhaps be the mindset of any terrorist: I am young and ignorant, we do not worship the same God and having been called upon by a higher power, I divorce myself from my religion. Turning around, taking you by the hand and escorting the both of us to hell for the occupation of my country, my ancestors...
For those of us older and educated, and wiser, we comprehend the causes of all wars. After all, it is better to live longer than to die young.
A local psych prof proposed the question: what is a terrorist and the mindset they have? At the end of her discourse it was evident from a scholarly point of view, there is no conscensus. It doesn't make sense, from one suicide killer another is born as if ancestral. As if a land was claimed from conflict. Take N Ireland, a history I know well, from my ancestors. Imagine the hatred in Gaza, Iraq or the Irish counties of Ulster...Spring and summer bring a season of the apprentice, the passing of tradition from old to young. Will the Orange parades march this year again without significant violence? The IRA ceasfire seems to be holding, the guns are silent as a new devolved unity is to be given the chance of overdue civility. I do not condone violence of any sort, my weapon of choice is a pen or pencil. Could this perhaps be the mindset of any terrorist: I am young and ignorant, we do not worship the same God and having been called upon by a higher power, I divorce myself from my religion. Turning around, taking you by the hand and escorting the both of us to hell for the occupation of my country, my ancestors...
For those of us older and educated, and wiser, we comprehend the causes of all wars. After all, it is better to live longer than to die young.
A local psych prof asked the question: what is a terrorist, and what motivates them...? She pondered the mindset and at the end of her article, from a scholarly point of view, there is no conscensus. It doesn't make sense but it is happening as if for every 1 suicide killer another is born...as if something happened to an ancestor. A land was claimed from a war. Take N. Ireland for example, a story I know well, from my ancestors. Imagine the level of hatred in Gaza, in Iraq, in the Irish counties of Ulster. Spring and summer bring another season of the apprentice, a torch is passed from the old to the young, will this years Orange parades pass without significant violence? The IRA ceasefire seems to be holding, the guns are silent while a historic peace process takes form in a devolved unity. I personally renounce violence of any sort, my weapon of choice is a pen or pencil. But I understand the mindset, from my ancestors: I am young and ignorant and we do no worship the same God, as I am called upon by a higher power and divorce myself from my religion. Turning around, taking you by the hand, and if necessary, escort you to hell for occupying my country, my ancestors...
For those of us older and educated, and wiser, the cause of all war is...It is better to live longer than to die young.
None of the comments posted thus far have pointed out the obvious but disturbing truth: humans like war and find it exciting. The ordinary, boring business of making a living is swept away and the individual can feel fully accepted as a member of the armed forces. It doesn't matter if you're kind of dumb, or clumsy, or unlucky in love or money. You're accepted, period. No wonder soldiers report that it wasn't love of country or flag or conquest or glory that kept them fighting: it was the love of their buddies, whom they felt closer to than it's possible for anyone else to understand. In the Spring of 1864, the 3 year draft period of many of the veteran Union soldiers was expiring and there was nothing the government could do to stop it. Thousands of them went home, but by the end of the year they drifted back into the army. (As a result some of the Union forces assembled in the Spring of 1865 were crack outfits filled with seasoned veterans.) They did it because they didn't want to let their buddies down, and because civilian life is mundane by contrast with the experience of living in the moment in a war. As Oliver Wendell Holmes said, "We have shared the incommunicable experience of war. We have felt -- we still feel -- the passion of life to its top. In our youths, our hearts were touched with fire."
Doug writes: "I honestly believe that the solution to most problems is economic prosperity. Prosperity breeds contentment."
Does not seem to have worked with greedy imperial Great Britain... Neither with European colonial countries, all of them the most economically prosperous at the time.
Does not seem to have worked with the imperial United States of America, arguably the most prosperous society in the history of mankind, yet the most discontented, the most insecure, the most violent, the most agressive, the most dangerous (refer to previous conversation on PostGlobal) in the world.
What is interesting here is NOT to criticize and indict any particular nation. That is not the point at all. This is not an exercise in anti-americanism.
The interesting question is rather: WHY? WHY is economic prosperity apparently not at all a/the solution to ethnic and religious strife?
May there be other causes over and above money and riches, after all?
Since ancient times three theories have been advanced as to why humans fight wars:
1. To gain power and help unify the nation.
2. Because powerful factions want to get rich.
3. Because war is basic to our nature.
None of these theories are capable of explaining every war. For instance, none of the European leaders wanted to fight WW I. Many regimes which initiate wars end up being toppled and sometimes the leaders do not survive; there are better and less uncertain ways of consolidating power than fighting wars. Similarly, the prospect of gaining wealth is iffy. Saying that war is basic to our nature is an empty tautology explaining nothing.
Just because X was an outcome of the war, it doesn't follow that the war was begun as a deliberate effort to achieve X.
Furthermore, the reasons why the war was begun tend to be quite different from the reasons why it is continued. Once a war is underway people tend to lose interest in why it began. All they care about is not-losing, which they fear as an annihilation, the end of history. In the actual event things seldom work out that way, but during the war people do not reason in the same way as during peacetime.
Volt Rare writes: "Human beings continue to behave like animals..."
Animals do not naturally behave like human beings conduct themselves. We need a better explanation than that, and one that does not keep disparaging animals.
Let's be clear about something here: there are important differences between the motives for murder and war. Murder is perhaps the ultimate assertion of the individual self. War, on the other hand, the self is submerged into the group -- war is a collective act. Thus, framing the question as "why do humans kill" mixes together these two very different psychological drives.
For a good treatment of this subject, see LeShan, L., The Psychology of War. New York: Helios Press, 2002.
The key cause of conflict is that some (not all) religions believe that theirs is the only right way and others are in error. That is why they feel compellled to proselytize. I emphasize that not all religions do this. Among the major ones only two do this. So let us not blame all religions. If we can say like Mahatma Gandhi that all major religions are right then most of the fighting will disappear. But can one make a Pope or an Ayatollah accept this?
Let's not kid ourselves. We are a modern industrial society, and we have intitutional killing in the death penalty and military. We don't have to look at warring tribes, but ourselves. We spend vast resources killing people in large numbers on a daily basis. It is a profitable and respectable enterprise. One could say our whole economy is based on it. Do you seriously beleive that a disadvantaged peasant blowing up himself or a car makes more difference than the influential powerful billionares? Where should we really direct our urge to reform? Thank you for reading this post.
Human tribes have always fought each other since the dawn of time, and even before then because it is characteristic of our animal ancestors.
Pack animals of genetic/family relation form social groups and fight other packs in order to gain or defend hunting terrority. Male animals of the same species fight each other for mates and territory.
Human beings continue to behave like animals because as a civillization, our efforts at introspection and self understanding have not risen above our animal natures.
Recent science has shown a phenomenon where the brain makes a decision or preference and the conscious mind makes a rationalization in order to explain it.
MRI/PET scans are not required to explain such obvious human nature when a man committs an act of dishonesty or violence and tries to morally or rationally justify it to himself or to his friends.
If people haven't "got it" yet due to recent events, just look at the Iraq invasion example. Masses of people, perhaps the majority of American voters have eagerly supported invasion of another country, with the consequence of killing or disfiguring 100,000's of people. The reasons that punctured the justifications where always there, but as a group, all that was needed was a justification in order to rationalize an emotional, tribalistic urge for revenge (albiet, grossly misplaced).
GW Bush and the neo-cons eagerly exploited the collective unconscious of the group, tapping deep primeval group urges for terrority, domination, and revenge. Don't be surprised to think it couldn't have happened before, a look at history shows that true motivations for territory, domination of land and other peoples, and revenge has been a continuous theme of human warfare. However, in the past such motivations weren't as well papered over with sophisticated rationalizations.
As a semi-religious person, I would say that the spark of God is within us and this gives us the divinely given potential (logic, reason, knowledge, compassion, wisdom, self-awareness) to rise above our beastial nature.
However, some manifestations of religion & political thought have instead encouraged human social groups to dumb-down their own independent moral/ethical/logical reasoning ability and have instead encouraged tribalistic thinking and blind obedience to demogogues spouting illogical propaganda and shallow platitudes.
Perhaps as a human species we can pass the tests that mark us as truly civillized. We could avoid self-annhiliation by allowing reason and civility to triumph over our animal urges to fight and seek domination. Perhaps we could also, as a group, strategize ahead in time, much farther than a herd of grazing animals, to exercise willpower and plan ahead on how we need to restrain ourselves and our greed for glitter, in order to safely steward our environment.
The instinct to dominate another human being, intellectually, economically, or spiritually, is hard to ignore. My own children exercise this behavior in microcosm. There is a strong desire to be in control in all of us. When you feel deprived, or threatened with deprivation, the instinct is to fight back.
Throughout history, we can find examples of this behavior on large and small scales. In modern times, economic prosperity has lead in many cases to a diminishment of inherent violence within a given society, but the instinct to fight and kill for what we want or need lies very near the surface. One only needs to look at the chaos of New Orleans following hurricane Katrina to see an example of how quickly our own civilized notions fall away.
Iraq demonstrates perfectly this principal. Shia and Sunni, held in check by a more dominant power (Saddam), lived in harmony until the status quo was broken. In the face of perceived grievances (Sunni minority dominance under Saddam), and a marked reduction of economic resources, the instinct to impose ones views, or protect yourself from such violence with proactive acts of your own, should easily have been predicted.
I honestly believe that the solution to most problems is economic prosperity. Prosperity breeds contentment. Unfortunately, that is a very high standard to meet and/or provide. I have no solution, and a doubt there will be one anytime soon. There will always be those who have, and those who have not. Until that dichotomy is solved, we humans will continue to be a violent lot.
We as a civilized society recognize that there are killing fields all over the world. Young men are the most common fodder more so than child soldiers or female fodder.
Young men who have not started their families or who have no economic resources or who have no stake are the best fodder in these destructive wars.
As a civilized society we came up with a Social Security program that solved the problem of poverty among old people. Can we not think of a Youth security plan that will reward young men/women to start families, develop a stake in their societies and start up the ladder of economic success?
Humans so easily dispatch one another because of where they put religion and ethnicity in the hierarchy of their social associations. At some point, it became more important to be a devotee of a certain religion or a member of a certain ethnic group, rather than simply a human -- an association that is universal. If people could see that their common humanity is the most fundamental bond, and not some supernatural mythological nonsense or some wholly man-made social grouping, all of us would live in a better, safer place.
The question is strange in the context of Iraq, and the Shuni/Shia civil war that started after USA deliberately destroyed a stable govt which had kept the place together (by force if necessary). Under Saddam Iraqis were not blown-up going to attend school or buy food at local markets!! The implicit bias is to say look at these savage muslims and how they are killing each other! My genearl comments are: nothing can compete with the brutality of white people in mass murders: whether it was the slave-factories and concentration camps run b
Readers’ Responses to Our Question (89)
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December 5, 2007 5:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
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December 5, 2007 5:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
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November 3, 2007 10:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
would you try to give a rattle snake a treat or back up and shoot him with a shotgun? your answer to that question is how you should answer the hamas wimp question!@!!!!!
June 4, 2007 7:22 PM | Report Offensive Comments
As far as ethnic groups fighting each, I think Chris G covered it pretty well.
As far as religious groups fighting each other: the majority of religious disputes are actually ethnic disputes. Shia versus Sunni is really Persian versus Arab (in the larger world), and one tribe versus another (in Iraq were sunni and shia are divided along tribal lines).
When the religious and ethnic lines are not the same, conflict will occur when their is a large proportion of unemployed young men who feel their world view is threatened and want a cause and an outlet for their frustration. However, the critical issue is not religion, its un-employment. You will never never ever in modern times see two adjacent religious groups fighting each other when the employment rate and relative quality of employment is high. Religion is merely an excuse because it provides a dividing line so that the other side can be blamed for ones problems. If it wasn't religion, some other dividing line would be devised, rich/poor, long-time resident/recently arrived, sharks/jets, and so on. In my opinion, it is pretty naive to blame religion for any significant amount of conflict and war that is going on in the world. The underlying economic and ethnic causes are much more compelling.
April 24, 2007 11:50 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Short answer: selfishness, willingness to ensure the security and vital resources of oneself and ones tribe/clan/family at total expense of other tribes/clans/families.
Long answer: Look at the entire history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, the one that begins around 1880. Before that time, Palestine was practically empty. British officials estimated between 70,000 and 120,000 permanent residents comprised of Moslems (mostly), Jews and Christians. Visitors described the region as a wasteland. After 1880, Jews and Moslems began pouring into that region almost simultaneously.
At first, the vast majority of them might not have trusted each other, but were happy to live together in peace. It was later in the 1920's and 1930's that very small minorities of both groups began committing atrocities in order to stir a conflict up (France and England didn't help things much as they sometimes used these occurrences to further their own political ends in the region). This in turn led to revenge killings, which led to more revenge killings and so on until by the end of World War 2, large, well armed groups from both sides were spoiling for fight. Technically, Palestinians started the official war with the siege of Jerusalem, but a large group of militant Zionists had actually been pushing for it so they would have an excuse to establish a secure homeland at the expense of anyone else. In some cases, the Israeli army drove Palestinian civilians from their homes. In many cases they did not. However, in the vast majority of cases, Parisians fled into Jordan an Syria without seeing an Israeli soldier at all because their fellow Palestinian militants told them the Israelis would kill them when they arrived and Jordan and Syrian actually told them they would host them and protect them until the Jews had been defeated. However, the Jews were not defeated. The Arab nations saw this war as an injustice and an affront to Arab pride and dignity. Therefore, they refused to grant the refugees opportunities for citizenship and integration. That would be admitting that they had lost the fight. Therefore, Palestinian refugees remained poor, angry, and without a country or sense of belonging and of course they put all the blame on Israel (who wouldn't in their situation). Ironically, as soon as Israel solidified its gains, all the surrounding Moslem nations forced most of the Jewish population out of their native Arab countries and into Israel. The number of Jews forced out of Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt and Jordan after the Israeli war of Intendance is approximately equal to the number of Palestinians forced out (when you are talking orders of magnitude.
Anyway, so that is how it happens. Two groups nervously sharing limited resources and power. Their is mistrust and bigotry among a minority. The idiotic minority of both groups pick a fight with each other and someone dies. Everybody gets involved and pretty soon it’s a never ending conflict. Sometimes in times of very limited resources (like drought) you don’t even have to have an idiotic minority, just crazy starving, afraid people.
April 24, 2007 11:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Politics and power. Ethnic tensions are a smoke screen for the two.
April 24, 2007 10:36 AM | Report Offensive Comments
The decision is for the Israelis to make. When they tell the Americans (i.e my government) what to do, then they will do it.
So, whats to worry? Rice doesnt know what to do anyway, and Bush is clearing brush or the other way around, when he is not talking to God.
April 23, 2007 11:07 PM | Report Offensive Comments
As long as men such as David Kuttab & David Makowsky show us that none should automaticallly hold expectations of agreement with our own peceptions (i.e.our "world), but rather, peacefully explain our own deliberately-reasoned contemplations--there is an alternative to warfare.
( "Military Budgets" are not synonymous with "Defense Budgets", are they? )
April 8, 2007 1:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Jacob Jozefs: ISRAELI APOLOGY TO ALL PALESTINIAN PEOPLE :
Wa Salam & Sholom.
Greeting Brothers and Sisters.
The S.O.L.U.T.I.O.N. to most of the Mid East (Internal/External Conflicts) POLLUTION is E.V.O.l.u.t.i.o.n. and NOT REVO.lution! See what I see Brothers & Sisters here on Space-Ship Momma Tellus?
I am a "SABRA" and my Father (expired) was in the HAGANA (The Resistence) up to 1955 (When our Prophet Albert Einstein died.
You see my dear Humates, my Father was very upset with Menachin Bahgen from the URGOON faction. So your infighting is the same CHARRA (s..t).
But the beautiful thing is that there is, In Shalah, HOPE. Please do not squander, by infighting and disrespect for each other which is equal to HUMANITY.
PALISTINE NEEDS A BRIDGE & TUNNEL AUTHORITY instead. They need to connect both end through this mechanism so GAZA & West BANK will be linked as one. So here is my gift to you.
behold: This is the main focus and priority. The will be Jobs, Commerce, Happy people, Economic growth. And best of all your own chance to prove yourselves not to the world, but to and among yourselves as a [secular} UNITED PALESTINE.
So Please Brothers and Sisters give peace a chance and your selves as a National & Soveriegnty!
I;m attaching something for your critique if any. Please let keep intouch. SHOOKRON. PEACE HUGGS KISSES HANDSHAKE L/o/v/e/ for neighbors & U.N. et al. GOOD LUCK!
March 25, 2007 11:32 AM | Report Offensive Comments
I think, all problems in the east middle are the religius, because the knoledge in the people history is based in saint land, 2000 years ago Joshua told us, in this place born a new civilitation, the catholic church, has been power in the world by the vatican bank.
March 24, 2007 11:21 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Came accross an interesting article most important to this issue:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article2387832.ece
This article points to another reason why war is fought [sometimes by others than the group, who gives the reason] a vulnerable class of society is scared SH*TLESS, due to the faith/poltics encouraged scaremongering. Is it not ENLIGHTENING that the students in a repressive society ask DANGEROUS QUESTIONS, while in the LAND OF THE FREE [USA] the students are scared, and do not ask dangerous questions.
Perhaps this article points to the reason why even after 4 years of expensive, bloody, endless war there are still approximately 30% of the USA wants to continue the war,
A sad note on USA society's so called future leaders. Mr. Ignatius should investigate this sociological pathalogy.
March 24, 2007 11:12 AM | Report Offensive Comments
AMviennaVA
"Many interesting comments. But I think the answer is relatively simple: People fight for Land and its resources: those who want it fight to get it; those who lose it, fight to gain it."
If it were only that simple. 9-11 had little to do with land. In most wars, acquiring land is just a byproduct of the reasons for fighting. It's peoples beliefs in certain things (like certain religions or political ideas) and non-beliefs in other things (like a pluralistic society or democracy). The battles resulting from the Cold War were more about the ideas than actually wanting the land. Same with WWII, US revolution, civil war. It's the ideas that are the problem. The US, for instance, believes in individuals personal freedoms. Those countries that are communist don't. Those ideas are incompatible, with each side believing they are right.
March 23, 2007 6:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Greetings & Hello World:
Dear Brother & Sisters on Space Ship Tellus & elsewhere; ATTENTION ALL HANDS:
There is nothing like a good Philosophy right? So:
LET HISTORY BE OUR JURY!
Before you start please say, “Thank You my Holy heart Beat. Praise SOURCE ONE. Peace n Love to ALL MANKIND”. Note: To “Pray” means to SPEAK to G-d and to “Meditate” is to LISTEN to the Lord. So Happy every Day folks. :-)'
P.R.E.A.M.B.L.E:
Today, the struggles and infighting over a name for IT (G-d) will slowly but surely go POOF-TIME, and then and only then will there be Genuine F.R.E.E.D.O.M of THOUGHT on SPACE-SHIP MOTHER EARTH and beyond for HAPPYNESS, WORLD PEACE, HEALING OF THE NATIONS, VERY LONG LIVES, ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT in GRIDARIAN DEMOCRACY via the Global VOTARY ASSOCIATION(S) and enjoyment via our FUTURE BOUND MINDS and for our SPACE FORTH ACTIVITIES & beyond.
The JOKTAN ( a/k/a us, United) Hebrews [SECULAR THINKERS W/ FUTURE MINDS]
Vs..
PELIG (a/k/a they, Divided) Hebrews [ANCIENT THINKERS W/BACKWARD MINDS]
(((((((((((((((THERE IS A MIRACLE IN OUR GENESIS)))))))))))))))
(1) In the Beginning of the DUE TO BE: (Utero)
ECLAT said, In my TRANSFINITY (reality) Let there be TEMPERATURE (Time) and, let therein and thereof, Space Forth ALL my PHOTONS (Light), and G-d saw that this was RIGHTEOUS.
(2) Then ECLAT said, let there be my HOLY HEART BEAT, so that I may spread thyself in ALL the lights and in ALL places via my vibrations as testament of my eternal LOVE .
(3) And ECLAT said, Unto my ether, I Command there be scattered from my abode ALL my 127 ATOMICS, and ECLAT saw that this was pure as the matter of TRUTH.
(4) Then ECLAT said, Let there be my ETERNITY AVOIDING LONLINESS so that I may Create, Destroy, and Recreate again and again ALL the Inanimate things, and the Almighty saw that this was indeed GOOD. THEN:
(5) ECLAT said, Let there be a UNIVERSE and my CONSTITUTION therein and thereof , as thou LAWS OF THY NATURE, and transcribe forever my Clauses so that thee creature may always know that nothing shall be external their Dominion nor can anyone escape my BRILLIANCE BURSTING FORTH. (Space Expansion from Absolute HEAT towards Absolute COLD) THEN:
(6)ECLAT said, Let there be TRANSFINITY (Reality) so that ALL may form via my 9 Dimensions, as thyself, and ECLAT was HAPPY. THEN:
(7)ECLAT said, Let there be my MAGMATRICULATION so that out of this WARMTH there may arise LIFE forms via thy CHEMISTRY so that I will adjoin, move about and EVOLVE into a variety lot as my ANIMATE creatures, and they shall have my Inanimate things as objects within their temporary WORLD for them to enjoy, at my WILL so they may know me as thy SELF.
ALL this CHEMISTRY (draw/erase/redraw) took 4.98 Billion LIGHT YEARS of HUMATE time to create..
SECRET: The "DUE-TO-BE" is where ECLAT contemplates WHAT TO DO NEXT. All this mysterious work takes place in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th Dimension. This place is EXCLUSIVE TO G-D ITSELF. Now, this 5th Dimension is the very place or spot where our known "Visible Light Spectrum" emanates from and this is also the very INTERFACE ,where Lord G-d ITSELF, bridges our REALITY of IT through us. Important: IT is the here, the now & the thereafter where LIFE/Birth is ITSELF released . And where Death Returns!
Hence, We & the Microbial do coexist and of course we are BORN, LIVE & DIE as Carbon Life-Forms, only in the 6th, 7th, 8th & 9th dimensions NOW! This is your NEW PHILOSOPHY. Praise THE LORD! Eeeee Haaaa. Holy No Man. :-).
“life is a Miracle & there is Zero Sin about being born in IT. Did You know, There is Life in Light?
(((((((((((((((((((WE NEVER DIE)))))))))))))) Just be Good In This LIFE FORM. PEACE/LOVE.
AND THIS IS THE BEGGINING OF THE END FOLKS! :-)' CooooooooL
Lets WALLASHALLOHM!
March 23, 2007 6:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Virtually all wars are about some combination of a fight over resources, the vanity of self-aggrandizing leaders, and promotion of the interests of powerful elites. Religion and ethnicity serve the same function for warmongers that alcohol serves for a wife-beater. They cloud the judgement, encourage sloppy, uncritical thinking, and enable behavior that would be unthinkable if the individual were evaluating the situation rationally. I don't know what the solution is, but getting religion completely out of government would be a good start.
March 23, 2007 5:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Salamon, re: war crimes
Well, the Pentagon taking advise from an architect of ethnic cleansing should be disturbing...
http://neretvariver.blogspot.com/2007/03/veljko-kadijevi-former-yugoslav-general.html
And:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/22/europe/EU-GEN-Croatia-War-Crimes.php
If it's true, we'll probably see a divided Iraq.
March 23, 2007 1:10 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Many interesting comments. But I think the answer is relatively simple: People fight for Land and its resources: those who want it fight to get it; those who lose it, fight to gain it.
March 23, 2007 12:35 PM | Report Offensive Comments
It would be easier to express,what are not the solutions. (i.e.)Militarism,Arrogance,and disdain, for the opinions, of the world at large,than to honestly express that, which may really ameliorate, the quagmire, into which this illegitimate administration, has plunged the world . Obviously the honest debate of concerns, of all parties, involved, is manditory. To think this mislead administration has the hubris to foist such an arrogant policy onto the world stage,is almost to much to comprehend. It's morally irresponsible, and a humanitarian failing, of immeasurable proportions. GOD HELP US;the sooner, the better.
March 23, 2007 10:13 AM | Report Offensive Comments
I am sure my comment will be deleted but here goes: The US will not be able to talk to palestinians becasue any congressman/senator that supports talking to them will not be elected next time over, MONEY from new york 'people' will go to their plitical opponents and the meda attack machine will go on full swing. Ask former congressman Paul Findley 'They dare to speak out'.
The palestinians want their freedom and they want US help to get there, what they dont understand is
the US has to gain its freedom first.
March 23, 2007 9:57 AM | Report Offensive Comments
I am sure my comment will be deleted but here goes: The US will not be able to talk to palestinians becasue any congressman/senator that supports talking to them will not be elected next time over, MONEY from new york 'people' will go to their plitical opponents and the meda attack machine will go on full swing. Ask former congressman Paul Findley 'They dare to speak out'.
The palestinians want their freedom and they want US help to get there, what they dont understand is
the US has to gain its freedom first.
March 23, 2007 9:55 AM | Report Offensive Comments
I have read and searched thou a lot of the comments before posting this. The feelings expressed are truly genuine. As are those of the panelist.
However, it one very critical thing seems to be missing. Certianly in light of the fact this discussion is being held shows that man has gotten very little from his idea of hoe to live in peace.
If everyone wants to know why humans fight you need only go to the very many "claim" to be a "guide" in their lives. I used quotes to separate how many say one thing but turn to doing something that contradicts their very claims.
Yes, men fought in "Bible Times" as one panelist put it. It seems this is somehow written to give us an understanding but it leaves out the true "why" this fighting and bloodshed occurs.
If its your claim that you "believe" in the Bible, then look at the Ecclesiastes 8:9. This has been true from the time Adam and Eve choose to rebel against God. Genesis 3:1-19
Take note too of the instigator of that murderous lie that they both followed. Satan now holds sway of the entire earth. Its it any wonder that people are doing and have done some of the most horrible things to one another? 2 Corinthians 4:4
Consider this...even though humans have progressed from the Jesus time they are still agitated and glutted with grief and pain at their own hands. We can send electronic messages to one another while we travel from one spot to another, fly to far away places in record times and even our cars are highly sophisticated computers on wheels and yet we all are still in fear of each other because of the way a person looks, talks and believes and this leads to hatred, injustice and murder.
And what of Religion? Its interesting to note how Jesus looked at his own people who wad been in a covenant relationship with God to uphold this ways. John 8:42-47
And very simple test to prove your beliefs are even stated by Jesus himself..."By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit" Mathew 7:16-18
Today men are displaying exactly what was foretold in the Bible..."But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away. 2 timothy 3:1-5
These attitude permeates every structure of human society today. Each time you turn on the news you see a glimps of this in some way shape and form.
And try not to resort to what is listed as a warning to us all..."For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning." 2 Peter 3:3-4.
Note that beside the sad behaviors mentioned above, Jesus also spoke of another "sign" that would tell us something very important...
"And in answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads YOU; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. YOU are going to hear of wars and reports of wars; see that YOU are not terrified. For these things must take place, but the end is not yet.
For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.
"Then people will deliver YOU up to tribulation and will kill YOU, and YOU will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name. Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."
This is where we all are right now. So it should not come as a suprise to any of us that those who again, "claim" they follow such higher tenents as the found in the Bible but belie that claim with their actions.
But regardless of this higher forces are at work. Fist, Satan is the one who instigate this "air" (Ephesians 2:2). So no matter how many debatres, laws or wars to stop wars man have, Satan is the one behind the cause of much of mans suffering.
Second, because man has chosen to either totally ignore God's ways or has watered down his word, humans fall victim to their own mismanagement of their lives and this frequently turns men to kill others in personal, racial, social and international crimes like war and terrorism.
third, established religion has NOT done anything to help man live lives free from this. In fact the very opposite is true as it, especially the more popular religions, are implicated in mass bloodshed through mankind's existence. It favored crusades, inquisitions, injustice upon the masses, immorality, slavery, both World Wars, civil strife and unrest, genocides just to name a few.
Imagine if those who practices religion actually followed 2 of the most important cammands uttered by Jesus?
"And one of them, versed in the Law, asked, testing him: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets." Mathew 22:35-40
Even if that fails to drive the point home the one of the most famous illustrations Jesus gave us is of the "good Samaritan". An illustration showing how men who wanted to serve God as they "claimed" should treat their fellow men. Luke 10:29-37.
How many wars would be fought if those were truly followed?
Forth and finally, God has purposed that man WILL live in peace. The very fact that his word the Bible Has survived and in massive quantities to this day shows that he will indeed make sure that those of us who long to be peaceable with our fellow man will, sometime very soon (remember the signs mentioned above) see that as a reality.
The Bible lays out for us the theme of God's kingdom ruling vs those of humans, (which was never the purpose to begin with) in his word.
A book that many "claim" to believe in and follow but that each of us can go to and then actually PROVE the right way to worship God for ourselves.
March 23, 2007 9:37 AM | Report Offensive Comments
The first part of your question, i.e., "Why do ethnic and religious groups.." makes the second part "..fight?" redundant. An identification with any one group to the exclusion of others entails the possibility, and often likelihood, of relegating the other to a supposedly inferior ethnic, or moral, etc. level. I believe that human conflict arose before any major religious or ethnic development, and is an essential part of the human condition. It does "pigyback" on religion and ethnicity, though, giving the "lizard brain" a chance to express itself through socially-sanctioned violence. Movements that are aware of the tendency to violence in group identification, and that make the conscious effort to transcend sectarian division, have a chance of producing human beings operating at a higher level. I think that trans-national religions such as Buddhism, and super-national political movements such as the European Union have the best shot at developing our potential as real human beings, and not just members of a "tribe".
March 23, 2007 9:12 AM | Report Offensive Comments
The real question is, Why do the rich kill? It was Bush and his oligarchic friends who fomented this war, and it is the rich who are profiteering from it. Religion and ethnicity are symbols, but the rich are the key to the underlying violence and corruption in this world.
March 23, 2007 8:53 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Zoltan
For once, I completely agree with you. Even questions that avoid the US, for example, Chinese foreign policy, end up being a discussion on the US.
There is much to learn from the rest of the world. Here's to hoping PG listens.
March 23, 2007 8:49 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Postage-sized dots of land.
Subject "a" says his Holy Book entitles his people to a certain piece of land "for all of his generations." Subject "b" says, "no, my different Holy Book says that my people and my generations are entitled to the same plot."
A person who worships in spirit and in truth does not need a particular tract of land and some faiths could be practiced for a lifetime, without a pilgrimage, on the moon.
A former Professor once answered the question with one word, "Nationalism." Her expansion of that word was echoed in John Lennon's song Imagine, in which it is suggested that all of the world's resources be distributed to all of the world's people.
Biblical Christianity does not require any piece of land, any pilgrimages and any annual rituals - only a moment-by-moment faith in the Perfect Resurrected One and two Great Commandments - the first being vertical.
March 23, 2007 8:33 AM | Report Offensive Comments
It is simple: man fights man because he is man.
It has been that way since the earliest hominids began walking upright. There is an innate need to dominate, it seems. Before religion it was tribal affiliation that was the sticking point. If you had two groups of people that had no religion, and were identical in look, with the exception of hair color, they would use that as an excuse to fight.
The real question is: Can man overcome what appears to be trait buried in his genes.
I am sorry for the masculine, but the word person didn't seem to fit my purpose here.
March 23, 2007 7:10 AM | Report Offensive Comments
This is becoming tiring: the only questions asked in PostGlobal are about the USA: "are we great ?", "why do they hate us ?", "will the rest of the world forgive us about Iraq ?", "how is my belly button looking ?", "Is Russia stronger than the USA ?"
Aren't you interested in really GLOBAL questions ? Like:
"How are the industrialized countries going to survive without cheap fossil sources of energy ?"
"Should mankind build more nuclear reactors to face global warming ?"
"Why is Africa always such a poor continent ?"
"Should mankind explore the Moon and build there a permanent base ?"
"Is parliamentary democracy as the West has known for 2 centuries still a good political system ?"
There is no shortage of interesting questions.
March 23, 2007 6:50 AM | Report Offensive Comments
There is an actual God of war called Aries,
it is interesting, He says man "needs" Him.
But not anymore, it would seem we're past that.
Did you know 30 percent of war victims are children?
Also another large percentage are women.
What does this tell you? What does it tell you that this isnt even known about generally speaking? Its true, check it out.
"War will end when leaders cease to act like children"- some quote I remember..
Also, I for one refuse to participate in any group that allows genocide. This is why I have dropped out of the human race a while ago. I do not wish to dirty myself so.
March 23, 2007 6:42 AM | Report Offensive Comments
The solution is to realize that we are all ONE and what we do to others we do also unto ourselves.
March 23, 2007 6:21 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Read the Nobel laureate Amartya Sen's "Identity and Violence - The Illusion of Destiny", and you would understand why people fight in the name of religion, region, ethnicity, etc. ... The solution is to be aware of, adopt, believe in and be comfortable with our multiple identities: ... e.g., a person can be an Indian, a Hindu, a literate, a fan of cricket, an admirer of Shashi Tharoor's works, respect Ratan Tata, love Formula One (Michael Schumacher !), from New Delhi, have brownish-green eyes, a firm believer in an individual's rights, a leo, ... etc. etc. and be a human being at the core! ... Simple :)
March 23, 2007 4:43 AM | Report Offensive Comments
It was Charles Darwin who noticed that similar species would evolve at varying phases.
Our closest relatives in nature the chimpanzees also exhibit the same differing phases in evolution.
However there is only one creature on this planet that has the creative ability to change his environment for better or for worse. The evolution of the human condition has seen the transitions of societal formats. Tribal communities into fedual communties into capitalist communties (urban). All pushed forward by technological change which were pushed forward by challenges to human survival. The camel in the desert to the elephants in South Asia to the horses used by the Mongol hordes, to the space shuttle. Man evolving to show his supposed mastery over nature (and other men).
Economics,politics and culture are all part of human social formats. Religion is part of evolving culture.
In todays world where rapid advances in communciation have shown most of the worlds populations that life can be better the planet is in for interesting times.
The late Pope said it best. "El pobre no pueden esperar" The poor cannot wait. Where 18% of the worlds population consume 80% of the worlds resources, the 80% is slowly realizing it and it wants it share.
World views are clashing and as the speed of information is traveling at light speed. However understanding of what one knows becomes problematical.
Human power to animal power to a carbon based economy and who knows what comes next?
Dilithium crystals and the Starship Enterprise and its prime directive not to interfere with planets that are lower on the evolutionary ladder.
But that was science fiction wasn't it.
March 23, 2007 3:23 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Fighting/killing is part of the very nature of what it means to being a creature. One of the earliest developments in the genesis of life is mobility --- a move towards light and/or food source.
All organisms need light and/or food source; we therefore all inch our way toward those goals. Overcrowding caused mobility acceleration: the faster developers got to the food source before and grew and develop even faster and stronger.
This still is the most superseding part of our make-up, as a species. Evolution and time don't change this "repitlian" drive to move faster, to grow bigger and stronger (and "smarter"), to seek better and more food and space. Nor does the extremely recent development of symbolic expressions (e.g., language and the myriad things that oral and written language is able to impart us as a species).
Indeed, language (including what's called reason) was invented and used, to a very great degree, mostly as interpretive tools to "explain" and to rationalize away our competitive and violent-based nature... What we call "ethics" and "morality" are, for the most part, accidental features of symbolic expressions, very much like arts, mathematics, etc.
Superstitious beliefs like religions were invented to give hope to the hopeless and weak. They were also stories to explain why some are naturally stronger/masters and others weaker/slaves. They serve as soothing balms, on the one hand, and scare-tactics, on the other, to achieve social consensus.
Ultimately and paradoxically competition, war, violence, and death --- including germs, bacteria, viruses, and other deadly diseases and how they play their roles --- are integral parts of what we call the cycle of life: all are necessary for the functionality of the various ecosystems as well as for life itself, from the atomic/molecular level, to the cellular/organelle level, to the human/animal level, and finally to the stellar level....
This is not a silly attempt at "philosophy"; it is a mere observation of what people like to call "reality."
(Escapism is not found only on the "silver screen;" it is also found in what we call "rationality," a trick we all --- WE ALL --- use when we get up on our soap respective soap boxes and moralize and intellectualize and explain away and "justify" our purpose for being the way we are, and why others, especially the "bad guys," are the way they are, and if they'd just listen to us, we're all be happy...
Her Lao
March 23, 2007 12:36 AM | Report Offensive Comments
PG
A major split occurred in Islam over a thousand years ago. "Sunnis and Shias differ in doctrine, ritual, law, theology and religious organisation".
The violence between Sunnis and Shias predates Saddam's rule in Iraq, but Saddam's rule magnified the Muslim split and relegated Shia Muslims to second class citizens even though they represented the majority of the population.
Saddam ruthlessly tortured, murdered and oppressed the Shias (and Kurds) during his twenty(+) year rein of terror. During the “oil for food” program, the Sunnis preferentially received more food, thus the Shias were burdened with a higher percentage of deaths due to the International sanctions. The US encouraged the Shia to revolt after the Gulf War and then watched as Saddam crushed the rebellion killing thousands of Shia (and Kurds) in the process.
When the US invaded in 2003, the Shia (and Kurds) were liberated from the oppression of Saddam's rule. The Shia and Kurds welcomed the overthrow of Saddam, although the Shia (rightfully) are against the US occupation of their country. Over eight million Iraqis voted in three elections to elect a government that is ruled primarily by the MAJORITY Shia Muslims. The Shia, RIGHTFULLY, have been placed in the position of ruling the country. There are only two countries in the world with a majority Shia population - Iran and Iraq.
Is the US responsible for the violence that we see in Iraq on a day to day basis? EMPHATICALLY NO. The US is caught, just as the average Iraqi citizen, in the middle of a regional conflict pitting Shia and Sunni interest. Iraq has become the regional flash point for this conflict. The violence between Sunnis and Shias has the mark of a decades or centuries old rivalry (sometimes deadly) fueled by Saddam's severe oppression, torture and genocidal murder of the Shias. There is a large (regional, in my opinion) resistance to the new Shia rule in Iraq.
Saudi Arabia, and other Sunni countries such as Egypt and Jordan are alarmed by the rise of Iranian influence in the Middle East. They are also concerned over Iran’s development of nuclear weapons, and have threatened to begin their own nuclear program. Clearly the Sunni ruled countries are supporting the Sunni insurgency in Iraq. Iran is supplying arms and finances to Sadr and other militias to counter the Sunnis. The recent attacks on Shia pilgrims in Iraq was carried out by SAUDIS. The Shia marched defiantly in the face of these brutal attacks.
“…More than 115 people were killed in Iraq Tuesday when two suicide bombers blew themselves up among pilgrims making their way to a holy city for one of the most important days on the Shia Muslim calendar…”
Finally, whoever believes that the US invaded on a divide and conquer strategy is not viewing the region correctly. In fact, divide and conquer was exactly the strategy of Zarqawi, the Al Qaeda leader in Iraq who planned his attacks against Shia Muslims to start a civil war. After the invasion, the US has been unable to control the surge in violence between the different Muslim factions. The civil war is clearly not in the interest of the US.
The typical, average, market dwelling Iraqi citizen has born the brunt of the violence from Sunni insurgents and Shia death squads.
March 22, 2007 10:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Yes why do they fight. This is something the British learned of the weakness that some communities have for each other. The British used this tool to go on their conquest of the world by getting the different ethnic groups to fight with each other and then go on to conquer the nations. Example: In India beef and pork are things that are religious for Hindus and Muslims. Getting the story spread that the bullets were greased with pork and beef resulted in a mutiny. Who helped to quell the mutiny were the Sikhs, of which I belong to. I am not proud of what the Sikhs did in this instant. Is this all being repeated now too by the world powers, something that has been learned from the British? I am sure this will be a good debate.
March 22, 2007 10:37 PM | Report Offensive Comments
For next week, why not pose as your topic The Nature of Free Will in the Hopeless or maybe The Origins of Consciousness? What presumption for two pop journalists to choose such a topic in such a forum. Daddy having left you a box of new pencils and some ribbons from St. Albans does not make of you a philosopher. Mr. Ignatius, write another potboiler (the remainder tables are in need of books to stack as bookends) and Mr. Zakaria, save your right-wing blather for the aged Sunday morning viewers.
March 22, 2007 9:44 PM | Report Offensive Comments
To add to my earlier comment. Human conflicts are inevitable. They cannot be completely eliminated only managed from getting out of control.
March 22, 2007 9:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Religion is like any other "ism" that soceities use to organize themselves in a hierarchy and differentiate themselves from the "Other". It is the inherent duality in human nature that searches for commonality with fellow human beings as well differences in order to maintain its own self.
March 22, 2007 9:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Yes why do they fight. This is something the British learned of the weakness that some communities have for each other. The British used this tool to go on their conquest of the world by getting the different ethnic groups to fight with each other and then go on to conquer the nations. Example: In India beef and pork are things that are religious for Hindus and Muslims. Getting the story spread that the bullets were greased with pork and beef resulted in a mutiny. Who helped to quell the mutiny were the Sikhs, of which I belong to. I am not proud of what the Sikhs did in this instant. Is this all being repeated now too by the world powers, something that has been learned from the British? I am sure this will be a good debate.
March 22, 2007 9:21 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Yes why do they fight. This is something the British learned of the weakness that some communities have for each other. The British used this tool to go on their conquest of the world by getting the different ethnic groups to fight with each other and then go on to conquer the nations. Example: In India beef and pork are things that are religious for Hindus and Muslims. Getting the story spread that the bullets were greased with pork and beef resulted in a mutiny. Who helped to quell the mutiny were the Sikhs, of which I belong to. I am not proud of what the Sikhs did in this instant. Is this all being repeated now too by the world powers, something that has been learned from the British? I am sure this will be a good debate.
March 22, 2007 9:18 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Yes why do they fight. This is something the British learned of the weakness that some communities have for each other. The British used this tool to go on their conquest of the world by getting the different ethnic groups to fight with each other and then go on to conquer the nations. Example: In India beef and pork are things that are religious for Hindus and Muslims. Getting the story spread that the bullets were greased with pork and beef resulted in a mutiny. Who helped to quell the mutiny were the Sikhs, of which I belong to. I am not proud of what the Sikhs did in this instant. Is this all being repeated now too by the world powers, something that has been learned from the British? I am sure this will be a good debate.
March 22, 2007 9:17 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Yes why do they fight. This is something the British learned of the weakness that some communities have for each other. The British used this tool to go on their conquest of the world by getting the different ethnic groups to fight with each other and then go on to conquer the nations. Example: In India beef and pork are things that are religious for Hindus and Muslims. Getting the story spread that the bullets were greased with pork and beef resulted in a mutiny. Who helped to quell the mutiny were the Sikhs, of which I belong to. I am not proud of what the Sikhs did in this instant. Is this all being repeated now too by the world powers, something that has been learned from the British? I am sure this will be a good debate.
March 22, 2007 9:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
All higher order social behavior is taught and learned. The cultural norms and attitudes that define religous and ethnic groups are not innate. Hate groups do not exist in a state of nature. While it is true that in primitive societies a competition for scarce resources may have created a social need for self defense and offense, not all societies created feuds lasting millenia. I am not sure why. Once you are programmed with your tribe or cultures beliefs, you will act accordingly. Sunni and Shia, Christian, Jew, western capitalist and soviet communist all were programmed to know and respect their beliefs, hold them to be the best, recognize contrary belief as a threat, and be willing in many cases to defend your way of life to the death. The Iraq war was created through the spread of fear of terrorists, the threat to the american way of life. After 9-11 this was easy to use to scare people. When leaders choose to manipulate the beliefs of their followers, to spread fear, and fan flames of us vs them, the programming takes over. Rationality will not be a useful appeal to people who believe that they can die as a martyr for such a culturally or religiously noble cause. If you can go to paradise by killing someone defined as your enemy, you can not be reasoned with. the programming is complete. Laws against murder and other violent crimes do not stop all such transgression. But they do help to keep a lid on many individual conflicts that in many lawless areas escalate to death. Ironically it seems that the only conflict that contained itself was during the Cold War with Mutually Assured Destruction. It seems that when two somewhat rational actors end up in a standoff, they refrain from conflict. The problem with religious fanatics is they believe they will be better off in their afterlife, and find it reasonable to die for the cause. It is not clear whether a nuclear conflagration in the middle east would settle things, or simply escalate further. Bottom line, if you cant deprogram people from this nonesense, there is no solution.
March 22, 2007 8:58 PM | Report Offensive Comments
A local psych prof proposed the question: what is a terrorist and the mindset they have? At the end of her discourse it was evident from a scholarly point of view, there is no conscensus. It doesn't make sense, from one suicide killer another is born as if ancestral. As if a land was claimed from conflict. Take N Ireland, a history I know well, from my ancestors. Imagine the hatred in Gaza, Iraq or the Irish counties of Ulster...Spring and summer bring a season of the apprentice, the passing of tradition from old to young. Will the Orange parades march this year again without significant violence? The IRA ceasfire seems to be holding, the guns are silent as a new devolved unity is to be given the chance of overdue civility. I do not condone violence of any sort, my weapon of choice is a pen or pencil. Could this perhaps be the mindset of any terrorist: I am young and ignorant, we do not worship the same God and having been called upon by a higher power, I divorce myself from my religion. Turning around, taking you by the hand and escorting the both of us to hell for the occupation of my country, my ancestors...
For those of us older and educated, and wiser, we comprehend the causes of all wars. After all, it is better to live longer than to die young.
March 22, 2007 8:34 PM | Report Offensive Comments
A local psych prof proposed the question: what is a terrorist and the mindset they have? At the end of her discourse it was evident from a scholarly point of view, there is no conscensus. It doesn't make sense, from one suicide killer another is born as if ancestral. As if a land was claimed from conflict. Take N Ireland, a history I know well, from my ancestors. Imagine the hatred in Gaza, Iraq or the Irish counties of Ulster...Spring and summer bring a season of the apprentice, the passing of tradition from old to young. Will the Orange parades march this year again without significant violence? The IRA ceasfire seems to be holding, the guns are silent as a new devolved unity is to be given the chance of overdue civility. I do not condone violence of any sort, my weapon of choice is a pen or pencil. Could this perhaps be the mindset of any terrorist: I am young and ignorant, we do not worship the same God and having been called upon by a higher power, I divorce myself from my religion. Turning around, taking you by the hand and escorting the both of us to hell for the occupation of my country, my ancestors...
For those of us older and educated, and wiser, we comprehend the causes of all wars. After all, it is better to live longer than to die young.
March 22, 2007 8:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
A local psych prof asked the question: what is a terrorist, and what motivates them...? She pondered the mindset and at the end of her article, from a scholarly point of view, there is no conscensus. It doesn't make sense but it is happening as if for every 1 suicide killer another is born...as if something happened to an ancestor. A land was claimed from a war. Take N. Ireland for example, a story I know well, from my ancestors. Imagine the level of hatred in Gaza, in Iraq, in the Irish counties of Ulster. Spring and summer bring another season of the apprentice, a torch is passed from the old to the young, will this years Orange parades pass without significant violence? The IRA ceasefire seems to be holding, the guns are silent while a historic peace process takes form in a devolved unity. I personally renounce violence of any sort, my weapon of choice is a pen or pencil. But I understand the mindset, from my ancestors: I am young and ignorant and we do no worship the same God, as I am called upon by a higher power and divorce myself from my religion. Turning around, taking you by the hand, and if necessary, escort you to hell for occupying my country, my ancestors...
For those of us older and educated, and wiser, the cause of all war is...It is better to live longer than to die young.
March 22, 2007 7:53 PM | Report Offensive Comments
None of the comments posted thus far have pointed out the obvious but disturbing truth: humans like war and find it exciting. The ordinary, boring business of making a living is swept away and the individual can feel fully accepted as a member of the armed forces. It doesn't matter if you're kind of dumb, or clumsy, or unlucky in love or money. You're accepted, period. No wonder soldiers report that it wasn't love of country or flag or conquest or glory that kept them fighting: it was the love of their buddies, whom they felt closer to than it's possible for anyone else to understand. In the Spring of 1864, the 3 year draft period of many of the veteran Union soldiers was expiring and there was nothing the government could do to stop it. Thousands of them went home, but by the end of the year they drifted back into the army. (As a result some of the Union forces assembled in the Spring of 1865 were crack outfits filled with seasoned veterans.) They did it because they didn't want to let their buddies down, and because civilian life is mundane by contrast with the experience of living in the moment in a war. As Oliver Wendell Holmes said, "We have shared the incommunicable experience of war. We have felt -- we still feel -- the passion of life to its top. In our youths, our hearts were touched with fire."
March 22, 2007 7:21 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Doug writes: "I honestly believe that the solution to most problems is economic prosperity. Prosperity breeds contentment."
Does not seem to have worked with greedy imperial Great Britain... Neither with European colonial countries, all of them the most economically prosperous at the time.
Does not seem to have worked with the imperial United States of America, arguably the most prosperous society in the history of mankind, yet the most discontented, the most insecure, the most violent, the most agressive, the most dangerous (refer to previous conversation on PostGlobal) in the world.
What is interesting here is NOT to criticize and indict any particular nation. That is not the point at all. This is not an exercise in anti-americanism.
The interesting question is rather: WHY? WHY is economic prosperity apparently not at all a/the solution to ethnic and religious strife?
May there be other causes over and above money and riches, after all?
March 22, 2007 5:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Since ancient times three theories have been advanced as to why humans fight wars:
1. To gain power and help unify the nation.
2. Because powerful factions want to get rich.
3. Because war is basic to our nature.
None of these theories are capable of explaining every war. For instance, none of the European leaders wanted to fight WW I. Many regimes which initiate wars end up being toppled and sometimes the leaders do not survive; there are better and less uncertain ways of consolidating power than fighting wars. Similarly, the prospect of gaining wealth is iffy. Saying that war is basic to our nature is an empty tautology explaining nothing.
Just because X was an outcome of the war, it doesn't follow that the war was begun as a deliberate effort to achieve X.
Furthermore, the reasons why the war was begun tend to be quite different from the reasons why it is continued. Once a war is underway people tend to lose interest in why it began. All they care about is not-losing, which they fear as an annihilation, the end of history. In the actual event things seldom work out that way, but during the war people do not reason in the same way as during peacetime.
March 22, 2007 5:20 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Volt Rare writes: "Human beings continue to behave like animals..."
Animals do not naturally behave like human beings conduct themselves. We need a better explanation than that, and one that does not keep disparaging animals.
March 22, 2007 5:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Let's be clear about something here: there are important differences between the motives for murder and war. Murder is perhaps the ultimate assertion of the individual self. War, on the other hand, the self is submerged into the group -- war is a collective act. Thus, framing the question as "why do humans kill" mixes together these two very different psychological drives.
For a good treatment of this subject, see LeShan, L., The Psychology of War. New York: Helios Press, 2002.
March 22, 2007 5:06 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Well, interests, why do they US kill innocent Iraqis?
March 22, 2007 5:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
I think that people fight because they want power. like refering to wars, why war? because they want to see who is more powerful.
March 22, 2007 5:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
all this killing just so western oil countries get their 30 year oil contracts?
March 22, 2007 5:01 PM | Report Offensive Comments
The key cause of conflict is that some (not all) religions believe that theirs is the only right way and others are in error. That is why they feel compellled to proselytize. I emphasize that not all religions do this. Among the major ones only two do this. So let us not blame all religions. If we can say like Mahatma Gandhi that all major religions are right then most of the fighting will disappear. But can one make a Pope or an Ayatollah accept this?
March 22, 2007 4:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Let's not kid ourselves. We are a modern industrial society, and we have intitutional killing in the death penalty and military. We don't have to look at warring tribes, but ourselves. We spend vast resources killing people in large numbers on a daily basis. It is a profitable and respectable enterprise. One could say our whole economy is based on it. Do you seriously beleive that a disadvantaged peasant blowing up himself or a car makes more difference than the influential powerful billionares? Where should we really direct our urge to reform? Thank you for reading this post.
March 22, 2007 4:03 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Human tribes have always fought each other since the dawn of time, and even before then because it is characteristic of our animal ancestors.
Pack animals of genetic/family relation form social groups and fight other packs in order to gain or defend hunting terrority. Male animals of the same species fight each other for mates and territory.
Human beings continue to behave like animals because as a civillization, our efforts at introspection and self understanding have not risen above our animal natures.
Recent science has shown a phenomenon where the brain makes a decision or preference and the conscious mind makes a rationalization in order to explain it.
MRI/PET scans are not required to explain such obvious human nature when a man committs an act of dishonesty or violence and tries to morally or rationally justify it to himself or to his friends.
If people haven't "got it" yet due to recent events, just look at the Iraq invasion example. Masses of people, perhaps the majority of American voters have eagerly supported invasion of another country, with the consequence of killing or disfiguring 100,000's of people. The reasons that punctured the justifications where always there, but as a group, all that was needed was a justification in order to rationalize an emotional, tribalistic urge for revenge (albiet, grossly misplaced).
GW Bush and the neo-cons eagerly exploited the collective unconscious of the group, tapping deep primeval group urges for terrority, domination, and revenge. Don't be surprised to think it couldn't have happened before, a look at history shows that true motivations for territory, domination of land and other peoples, and revenge has been a continuous theme of human warfare. However, in the past such motivations weren't as well papered over with sophisticated rationalizations.
As a semi-religious person, I would say that the spark of God is within us and this gives us the divinely given potential (logic, reason, knowledge, compassion, wisdom, self-awareness) to rise above our beastial nature.
However, some manifestations of religion & political thought have instead encouraged human social groups to dumb-down their own independent moral/ethical/logical reasoning ability and have instead encouraged tribalistic thinking and blind obedience to demogogues spouting illogical propaganda and shallow platitudes.
Perhaps as a human species we can pass the tests that mark us as truly civillized. We could avoid self-annhiliation by allowing reason and civility to triumph over our animal urges to fight and seek domination. Perhaps we could also, as a group, strategize ahead in time, much farther than a herd of grazing animals, to exercise willpower and plan ahead on how we need to restrain ourselves and our greed for glitter, in order to safely steward our environment.
March 22, 2007 3:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
The instinct to dominate another human being, intellectually, economically, or spiritually, is hard to ignore. My own children exercise this behavior in microcosm. There is a strong desire to be in control in all of us. When you feel deprived, or threatened with deprivation, the instinct is to fight back.
Throughout history, we can find examples of this behavior on large and small scales. In modern times, economic prosperity has lead in many cases to a diminishment of inherent violence within a given society, but the instinct to fight and kill for what we want or need lies very near the surface. One only needs to look at the chaos of New Orleans following hurricane Katrina to see an example of how quickly our own civilized notions fall away.
Iraq demonstrates perfectly this principal. Shia and Sunni, held in check by a more dominant power (Saddam), lived in harmony until the status quo was broken. In the face of perceived grievances (Sunni minority dominance under Saddam), and a marked reduction of economic resources, the instinct to impose ones views, or protect yourself from such violence with proactive acts of your own, should easily have been predicted.
I honestly believe that the solution to most problems is economic prosperity. Prosperity breeds contentment. Unfortunately, that is a very high standard to meet and/or provide. I have no solution, and a doubt there will be one anytime soon. There will always be those who have, and those who have not. Until that dichotomy is solved, we humans will continue to be a violent lot.
March 22, 2007 3:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
We as a civilized society recognize that there are killing fields all over the world. Young men are the most common fodder more so than child soldiers or female fodder.
Young men who have not started their families or who have no economic resources or who have no stake are the best fodder in these destructive wars.
As a civilized society we came up with a Social Security program that solved the problem of poverty among old people. Can we not think of a Youth security plan that will reward young men/women to start families, develop a stake in their societies and start up the ladder of economic success?
March 22, 2007 3:21 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Humans so easily dispatch one another because of where they put religion and ethnicity in the hierarchy of their social associations. At some point, it became more important to be a devotee of a certain religion or a member of a certain ethnic group, rather than simply a human -- an association that is universal. If people could see that their common humanity is the most fundamental bond, and not some supernatural mythological nonsense or some wholly man-made social grouping, all of us would live in a better, safer place.
March 22, 2007 3:18 PM | Report Offensive Comments
The question is strange in the context of Iraq, and the Shuni/Shia civil war that started after USA deliberately destroyed a stable govt which had kept the place together (by force if necessary). Under Saddam Iraqis were not blown-up going to attend school or buy food at local markets!! The implicit bias is to say look at these savage muslims and how they are killing each other! My genearl comments are: nothing can compete with the brutality of white people in mass murders: whether it was the slave-factories and concentration camps run b