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NO PALESTINIAN STATE R2

Imagine that the various people who settled in the United States for the past 300 years decided one day that they one to parcel the United States into an independent State just for them, would the American public go for it. The Answer is absolutely NO.

The situation in Israel today is no different. The Arabs there are not Palestinians, there is no such Arab nation as Palestine or Palestinian people.

Europeans countries today are consisting of numerous people from other countries. Would the Europeans people cede part of their country to set up another State in their midst. The answer is absolutely NO.

All the Arabs in Israel and surrounding areas are from the various Arab nations, such as Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon and other Arab nations.

Prominent PLO Arab says there are no 'Palestinians' and no "Palestine"

PLO executive committee member Zahir Muhsein admitted in a March 31, 1977 interview with a Dutch newspaper Trouw.

"The Palestinian people do not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism. "

The Qur'an 17:104 - states the land belongs to the Jewish people

If the historic documents, comments written by eyewitnesses and declarations by the most authoritative Arab scholars are still not enough, let us quote the most important source for Muslim Arabs:
"And thereafter we [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd'.".
017.104
YUSUFALI: And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (of promise)": but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd.
PICKTHAL: And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.
SHAKIR: And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment.
- Qur'an 17:104 -
Any sincere Muslim must recognize the Land they call "Palestine" as the Jewish Homeland, according to the book considered by Muslims to be the most sacred word and Allah's ultimate revelation.

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Must Israel continue year after year to act out the sad tale of the abused child growing up only to become the adult abuser of a weaker, less advanced child/nation?
Is Gaza tormented by Israeli enforcers with the same degree of evil intent that the Nazis once displayed in ruling over the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto? I say No.
But, do Israeli hard-liners seem determined to make people stop and briefly think about their answer? I'm afraid I must say Yes.

Must Israel continue year after year to act out the sad tale of the abused child growing up only to become the adult abuser of a weaker, less advanced child/nation?
Is Gaza occupied by Israeli enforcers with the same degree of evil intent that the Nazis once displayed in ruling over the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto? I say No.
But, do Israeli hard-liners seem determined to make people stop and briefly think about their answer? I'm afraid I must say Yes.

Must Israel continue year after year to act out the sad tale of the abused child growing up only to become the adult abuser of a weaker, less advanced child/nation?
Is Gaza tormented by Israeli enforcers with the same degree of evil intent that the Nazis once displayed in ruling over the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto? I say No.
But, do Israeli hard-liners seem determined to make people stop and briefly think about their answer? I'm afraid I must say Yes.

If God really did choose the Jewish people over all other peoples He failed all of us, he should have made us all Jewish to avoid the only too human jealousy that would naturally occur. Or could it possibly be that some Jewish scribe put the chosen people thing in there? If so, what does it mean to swear on a bible that states untruths? I refuse to swear on the bible for the reason that I do not believe that God could have chosen such a stupid thing.
AS for Israel and Palestine does any one think any one of these two deserve a piece of the Holy Land?
No!!!!! But they are both there to stay. So the Holy Land should be occupied by the UN, all should be disarmed, and equal rights should be enjoyed by all. International tribunals should settle disputes. The place should simply be called the Holy Land.

Arabs and Jews both want to occupy same piece of land...neither wants to share. Neither is going to disappear. The United States should speak to any parties that renounce violence.

Is the cliche true: "If the Arabs put down their weapons, we'd have peace....if the Jews put donw their weapons, we'd have genocide"

To F.YNGVASON (who asks if Israel is the aggressor)...if you are attacked, but gain the upper hand over your attacker, and hold him down so that he does not resume his attack....are you now the aggressor?

It was the judaio christian that brought the war to native americans.Not arabs.But i dont believe the koran or the torah,they are both self serveing racist doctrine.My point was why is jewish literature accepted as fact.We make policy baced on one peoples interpetation of god.Yes war is the resultbecause god does not allow compromise.

Sorry but hamas represents no possibility of progress anywhere in the area. Like arafat they have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity and negotiating with them will simply waste lots of time for lots of people.

As in Iraq, the only hope of settlement will arise after a civil war among the arabs. That 'community' must find a unified voice or exhaust themselves in other ways.

A comment above notes that the Old Testament is a major roadblock to peace...right. I would guide geronimo to the Quran published by the saudi royal family...by page three they have declared war on the entire west.

Sign me, 'little hope'.

How can you have any peace,when you use the jewish bible as a legitimate souce for history.Does america except the fact that you can not occupy a people on the basis of 2500 year old jewish writeing.What the jewish scribes recorded was not the same as what the egyptions recorded.Yet we are quick to except jewish literature as fact.Why?For 2500 years the palestinians have heard they were the unwanted children of abraham,through their mother the concubine hagar.And that is still the rule of law today.Why should the palestinians play second fiddle to the jewish people,that is admitting that god was not for them.That is twisted logic,and it is not a premise for decideing world policy.America has no right to impose their religion on the palestinian people.I do not believe the creater loved one and hated the other.

No. it is better to leave Hamas to themselves. They will then use their efforts to marshal support within the muslim world, (i.e., Iran) and won't have to subject themselves to pressure of recognizing the Zionist state. Hamas has nothing to gain from recognizing Israel. Israel isn't serious about peace and will not give up it's conquests from 1967 until they see the handwriting on the wall. There will be no peace in the Middle East until people in Israel realize that the choice is between a decent life for Arab Palestinians and no Israel at all. The latter is the more likely outcome, unless one subscribes to the theory that Muslims are stupid.
If the U.S. doesn't talk to Hamas, it won't be a factor in Palestine. The U.S. has painted itself into a corner by rejecting the democratic choice of the Palestinian people, but it can't risk provoking the Zionist lobby in America. By refusing to pay the salaries of the PLO, the U.S. and Europe has left its main clients out in the cold. The Norwegian foreign minister has understood this, but it's probably too late- the bonds between Hezbollah and Hamas are too strong. And politically, they're the only game in town.

I think that there is a zero chance of a negotiated solution of the Palestinian problem through negotiations between the Palestinians and the Israelis. The only way to solve the problem is through forced solution. The world community and powers: US - representing the Israeli interests, Arab states - representing the Palestinian interests, and European states+Russa (being, in general, more neutral) should meet - agree on a just and acceptable solution - and force it upon the two parties. There should be no direct negotiations involving Israel and the Palestinians about borders, security, refugees - they are useless since they can never lead to an agreement. Only a forced solution will work - with a temporary international/US force to keep secure the borders. If the two parties are left to themselves there are two possible outcomes i) one party completely ethnically cleanses the other, ii) endless unrest, terrorism, and intifadas

Q 1: should USA talk with Hamas

R1: yes, unconditionally -- preconditions are not a way to start PEACE TALKS, Preconditions are BLACKMAIL, or to put it more clearly: A loaded GUN held to the other's head.

q2 Did Mr. David Makovsky make a case against talking to Hamas?

r:2 No, Mr. David Makovsky repated all the talk points of AIPAC, and came up with more excuses than CARTER HAD PILLS, on why talking with either Hamas or the Unity government is not the right way forward. MR. David Makovsky is not interested in resolving the I/P problem, he is happy with the advancement of ZIONIST land grab - reflecting the views of AIPAC.

Q3 : Did Mr. Daoud Kuttab make a case for talking with HAMAS/Unity Government?

R3, YES, even though Mr. Daoud Kuttab admitted to some of the problems which has to be resolved, sidestepped.

Q4 Does the position of either party reflect on the corner stones of USA democracy: RULE OF LAW, DEMOCRATIC ELECTION, RESPECT FOR FOR INTERNATIONAL LAW?

R4: While Mr. Daoud Kuttab admitted to some issues which reflect the central tenet of USA DEMOCRACY, and used the points well to indicate that there should be peace talk with Hamas and or the Unification Government; Mr.David Makovsky was very careful to talk about the PRICE OF WHEAT IN CHINA, and desisted form referring to central tenets of democracy. His wisful thinking that the ARAB CONFERENCE will change the rules of engagement as far as the Saudi Peace Plan is concerned, reflects the AIPAC's notions on the invasion of Iraq - misconception leading to total disaster.

General observations:

If it is legal under international conventions and USA Statute LAW that expatriates may partake of DEMOCRATIC ELECTIOSN in their country of origin [e.g. Italy, USA, Lebanon, UK, etc] then the posion of MR David Makovsky regarding Palestanians is as ridiculous as his notions on the coming Ryad Conference.

The Status QUO : 50 plus years of Jewish/Zionist expansion with guns has corrupted the Jewish psyche, to the extent that large part of the Government is under criminal investigation for years on end.

Years of defying international law [aided and abetted by the USA] has not created peace in Israel, and also corrupted its national economy, for the cost of SDI [which should be called anything but DEFENSIVE, for it invades, bombs sovereign nations - Lebanon, Iraq, and abuses the international law of occupied terrytories] is so great that the economy suffers, and depends on incoming FOREIGN ASSISSTANCE, notwithstanding that the median income of Israel indicates that it is a WELL DEVELOPED COUNTRY.

I Thank Mr. David Makovsky and Mr. Daoud Kuttab for presenting the opposing views.

Since everyone seems to agree that a just permanent solution would be for two states to exist along the '67 borders and no right of return to Israel, and that the two sides would never be able to negotiate this deal by themselves, it seemed reasonable to me that the only good approach is for the US (or an international coalition-of-the-willing) to occupy Palestine - speed up the process - and guarantee the territorial safety and integrity of the two states. Of course there are forces in the US that would not allow this to happen - at least not for now.

While the US probably could have been received well, do you really think that Israel would allow for the '67 borders? Their wall would say otherwise. :)
Also, you say that the US should go into Palestine and set up a democracy. What kind of government would we call the current one in Palestine? The government was elected under the supervision of election group watchers. I would say there is corruption and cohesion, but do we only recognize democracies that are allies with us? Democracies can be very disagreeable by nature (look at Italian politics!), but we can’t say it is a failure in other countries just because the policies don’t agree with ours (and we consider our democracy to be the best and the one which all other democracies follow as a model).

Do we even recognize Palestine as a state? We say we do as does Israel, but I don’t think that the separate of Palestine lands, where in the government is not allowed to enforce laws, or control their own borders due to the fact that they are officially ‘occupied’ can be called a recognized state. So, we recognize the theory that there should be a state; while Palestinians and other countries don’t necessarily recognize the theory that Israel should be a state, but recognize the reality.

I do agree that the stability of having a recognized state would help significantly to diminish the power of terrorist groups within Palestine and provide support to government forces to enforce laws as such. There will always be other issues and factors, but states need to have time to work through that; on their own. How else will they learn what works and what doesn’t if another power is being their parent and preventing any boo-boos?

I think that the insistence of most Western Countries (but, thankfully Norway has shown courage in being flexible) and of Ban Ki Moon that the Quartet conditions be accepted unconditionally up front by the PA, including Hamas, is just a stubborn way of keeping the Palestinians and the Arabs under the knuckles of Israel, which itself is aligned to the West rather than to the interests of its Middle-Eastern neighbourhood.

Haniyeh and Khuttab are right in pointing out that there is something unreal in asking a stateless party such as the PA to recognise Israel while Israel itself continues to call one of the parties that make up the PA 'terrorist'.

Hamas has gone a long way in implicitly recognising Israel in the same way that Israel is being expected by peace-lovers to implicitly recognise the right of the Palestinians to a separate, viable state by agreeing to the Mecca agreement without insisting on the Quartet conditions.

The negotiations will clarify outstanding issues on a trustful give-and-take basis.

I think that the insistence of most Western Countries (but, thankfully Norway has shown courage in being flexible) and of Ban Ki Moon that the Quartet conditions be accepted unconditionally up front by the PA, including Hamas, is just a stubborn way of keeping the Palestinians and the Arabs under the knuckles of Israel, which itself is aligned to the West rather than to the interests of its Middle-Eastern neighbourhood.

Haniyeh and Khuttab are right in pointing out that there is something unreal in asking a stateless party such as the PA to recognise Israel while Israel itself continues to call one of the parties that make up the PA 'terrorist'.

Hamas has gone a long way in implicitly recognising Israel in the same way that Israel is being expected by peace-lovers to implicitly recognise the right of the Palestinians to a separate, viable state by agreeing to the Mecca agreement without insisting on the Quartet conditions.

The negotiations will clarify outstanding issues on a trustful give-and-take basis.

The US should have invaded and occupied the Palestinian territories as defined by the '67 borders and created a democratic state there instead of in Iraq. This would have cost less and would have solved more mid-east problems than the Iraq invasion. The US or the International forces would also have been met with much more sympathy by the local population in Palestine if it was clear that their goal was to create a democratic and independent state along the '67 borders. These forces would also have been able to disarm Hamas and all terror organizations - once the local population realizes that soon they will live in their own independent state with Jerusalem as capital and the '67 borders as permanent borders. Thus all problems would have been solved. Of course, all palestinian refugees should go to the palestinian state - not Israel.

Engaging with Hamas and integrating its militants in the regular police force is the best strategy to tame it. Read this interesting article:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/02/28/opinion/edmagh.php

From a Jewish standpoint I can say clearly, that we all we all need to admit the true reality, as following:

There can't be a solution to the Middle East conflict only by recognizing the root cause of the problems, which is the OCCUPATION.

It's about time for world powers to step forward and do whatever it takes to recognize the legitimate right for Palestinian self pride and independence.

Justice & Peace for all mankind.

The United States government is willing to talk to Iran; it is talking to the North Koreans; it is perfectly capable of talking to Hamas. Yes, this will upset the Israelis but when it comes to credibly presenting itself as a "partner for peace" the onus is now on Israel -- not the Palestinians -- to demonstrate that it has a genuine interest in entering into good-faith negotiations.

Whether such negotiations can be entered into any time soon is far from clear. The Olmert government is far too weak to do anything bold, Israeli political culture is mired in corruption and Israel's self-image is still badly bruised because of the IDF's inability to defeat Hezbollah last summer.

At the same time, the formation of a Palestinian National Unity Government should be welcomed from all quarters. Hamas's political leadership has again demonstrated that it has a practical, pragmatic, and realistic approach to governance. A strong Palestinian government, far from posing a threat, should be seen for what it is: a body that can speak for the Palestinian people and exercise a powerful political mandate.

There are those such as Elliot Abrams who subscribe to the view that it serves Israel's interests for the Palestinians to be crippled by factional conflict. According to this simplistic mindset, if Palestinians are busy fighting each other they won't be able to cause problems for anyone else. Aside from the undiluted cynicism in this outlook, it simply isn't true. Israel's security is not served by having strife-torn societies on its borders. Far from it, the lack of peace outside the "Iron Wall" conceived as Zionism's ultimate line of defense is a fault-line that extends right into the heart of this oppositional conception of Israel.

The US-Israeli project to destroy Hamas has failed. The Palestinians have an adult government. It's now time for Israel and the West to stop sulking, start talking and demonstrate that, yes, we too, are capable of acting as adults.

Accepting the new Palestinian government is the only way the US can demonstrate that our democracy is worth the praise we heap on it. We arm the Israeli. We fund the Israeli. Our politicians promised to support the Israeli and defend them. How can an Arab world believe we are going to be fair brokers in a conflict where we take the Isreali side over the Arabs. The British government violated military agreeements with the Arabs during WW II and signed the Balfour Declaration with the Jewish representatives giving them land in the Palestinian area behind the back of the Arabs. America continues this unbalanced, unfair treatment of Arabs and wonders why we have angry Islamists! We force our version of democracy on the Iraqis but we refuse to recognised the legitimate vote that put power in the hands of Hamas. We call Hezbollah terrorists and cheer Israeli forces. Talk to Hamas, absolutely! Talk to Fatah, absolutely! Talk to a combined governmment, Of course. Belioeve the devastation of their country is a result of Israeli "terrorism" , why not.

It is kinda tough to reconcile being a democracy and refusing to recognize a duly elected government. Of course we talk to Hamas, you talk to anyone and everyone in an attempt to get a solution to the problem. You don't act like a spoiled child.

Speaking to ones enemies is acceptable to me
as long as it is done peacefully and has the possibility of accomplishing some good. The fact that each party is willing to talk shows that each party may be looking for compromise.If one of the parties breaks this peacefull discussion
the injured party will have the moral right to retaliate. As the old expression quates "Give peace a chance" On the other hand we have seen many such discussion in the past with all sort of negative results. Lets hope this one will succeed.

Speaking to ones enemies is acceptable to me
as long as it is done peacefully and has the possibility of accomplishing some good. The fact that each party is willing to talk shows that each party may be looking for compromise.If one of the parties breaks this peacefull discussion
the injured party will have the moral right to retaliate. As the old expression quates "Give peace a chance" On the other hand we have seen many such discussion in the past with all sort of negative results. Lets hope this one will succeed.

For 30 years Israel has with superior power
beaten the Palestinians to pulp. Exhausted they
dont understand why these people dont give up.
US is experiencing the same in Iraq and Afganistan. The French found out in Algeirs.
Israelis found out in South Lebanon.The Shah with the US equipped super army found out in Iran. History repeats itsself. What is the dynamic behind these resilent resistance of Islamic
people.

We should talk to everyone.

http://www.peaceisactive.com

Yes, US should speak to Hamas. US has killed more than 100,000 Iraqis, at least, in past couple of years and make itself called the liberator in the world. Since injustice is hardly seen in today’s world because of religious bias, I think it will be very unfair to Hamas by not having dialogues with them.

I oppose any human killing. And I hope my right of freedom of speech, since people who don’t like Bush are called unpatriotic, is not being monitored by FBI, CIA or NSA. Peace cannot be bought or seek by killing people!

Everyone Should watch this Hamas Tv music video and then tell me the US should give them money.

Pay attention to the end and what the child sings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqHUdwePfbM&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Flittlegreenfootballs%2Ecom%2Fweblog%2F

If the United States is opposed to negotiating with the Palestinian National Unity government because of the latter's inclusion of Hamas -- and that group's refusal to explicitly recognize Israel's legitimacy -- than the U.S. must also cease its support for Israel because nearly a quarter of the Israeli Knesset is comprised of individuals (e.g. Deputy PM Avigdor Lieberman) who reject any/all Palestinian claims to the "Land of Israel," publicly entertain the prospect of Palestinian population transfers, and incite their Israeli-Jewish constituencies with racist vitriol.

If America ever hopes to reclaim its reputation as an honest broker within this conflict, than the hypocrisy -- at least in its most egregious forms -- must stop.

Only American policymakers can press the Israeli government to pursue the peaceful paths that Israel's leaders are either to incompetent, indifferent, or cowardly to take, and only the United States can revitalize Palestinian society, neutralize its most extremist elements, and help support its nascent -- but increasingly democratic -- institutions.

Nevertheless, I wouldn't hold my breath and expect this particular Administration to see the light and contribute to promoting the necessary breakthrough. For many reasons -- but especially this -- the 2008 election carries historical consequences for the future of Israel-Palestine.

The Palestinians are suffering from all kinds of
oppression and hardship forced upon them by the
Israelis. Mass imprisonment, public executions
from the air ,other executions labeled accidents
(IDF a very accident prone army). Then starvation
and systematic destruction of infrastructure.
How can that be fought against? By turning the other cheek? The Israelis were not invited,they
are occupying power as US in Iraq.
Aren't they the aggressor??

Looking forward to the debate!