Readers’ Responses to Our Question (206)

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No, it must not. I know Turkey, it's a nice country, and Ata-Turk & his successors did a great job. But they do not fit EU. Not because of the religion (at least, not only because of it) or Armenians or Greek or Cyprus problems. They all can be overcome. It's more a civilization question, if you want. It's simply unsuitable.

I want to advise people who say bad things about Turkey to visit Turkey to understand how Turks live and behave minorities who live with them peacefully. For centuries Turkey has been a home for Christions, Jews and Armanians. Turks are not monster or evil. It is a democratic and secular country. If EU didnt want to a country %99 muslim population, they would accept to be Christian Union and head of religious separatist movement.

Best Regards

I want to advise people who say bad things about Turkey to visit Turkey to understand how Turks live and behave minorities who live with them peacefully. For centuries Turkey has been a home for Christions, Jews and Armanians. Turks are not monster or evil. It is a democratic and secular country. If EU didnt want to a country %99 muslim population, they would accept to be Christian Union and head of religious separatist movement.

Best Regards

I want to advise people who say bad things about Turkey to visit Turkey to understand how Turks live and behave minorities who live with them peacefully. For centuries Turkey has been a home for Christions, Jews and Armanians. Turks are not monster or evil. It is a democratic and secular country. If EU didnt want to a country %99 muslim population, they would accept to be Christian Union and head of religious separatist movement.

Best Regards

I am a Turkish citizen. A lot of people can say a lot of bad things about my country. For example i am not surprise some Greek people say bad things here about my country and about Turkish people. We dont like such games ! So i will not say my opinions about them. Easy to believe lies if nobody say against of it.. if you want to learn what is the truth about Turks and Greek read more history i will not say anything more. Even they are not civilised when they play football ! But they are member of EU. Anyway, my country has some econimical problem..that is true.. but please tell me which country has not such problem in the world? Another point is our religion ... I dont think that EU is for Christians.. if it is, we can seriously start to worry about common future of humanity. I DONT WANT MY COUNTRY BE THE MEMBER OF EU. I DONT BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE SINCERE ABOUT US TO BE MEMBER OF EU.

IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT TURKISH PEOPLE PLEASE GO TO www.helloturks.com

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as far as i am concerned turky is in the eu. how can you have turkey as a nato member but not be part of the western economic block. let the turks in they have backed the west silently on almost every issue we have asked them to. they deserve to be welcomed.

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for hundreds of years, the only thing the enormous amount of political entities in Europe shared was their prospensity (e.g.: of their leaders) to fight each other, a process halted only 50 years ago when the 'German problem' was resolved by American aid, interest and blackmail, a new common (Soviet) threat and the courage of, as De Gaulle put it, 'two very old man'(him and Adenauer) to let the past behind and to do away with the structural geo-political mechanisms hitherto bringing the Old Contient to the brink of war. The project has gone forth ever since, at slow paces sometimes, but the last 16 years it has crossed some lines very significant to every citizen socialized in a nation-state. Over half of legislation originating in Brussels, a single currency and no monetary autonomy, no souvereignty in matters of intra-European trade and immigration and expanding from some 15 to 27 member-states (including a reinified Germany that out performes every other member at all levels of power, exept militairy capabilities able to be engaged outside Europe), it might be argued that Europe has achieved something, especially as war among its member states seems more remote than ever.
Nevertheless, a common European identity is growing but slowly (how could it be otherwise, historically, all but a few national identities are born out of state indoctrination required for mass-mobilising events as war). On the international level, the EU is as weak as this common identity, and as weak as the enthusiasm Europeans currently have for the project. This said, the EU still exists, as something far more than something many outsiders can imagine (a kind of free-trade NAFTA arrangement). How disperse it is, how weak it may seem, it is a polity. Due to it's structural weaknesses, it cannot but evolve by using soft power, a much more lengthy, invisible, and democratic process, and, as no elite is fully able to -from a top-down point of view- appropriatly direct this process, the outcome is far more unpredictable, both in nature as in time-table. All the social transformations imposed on the Europeans now starting to sink in, a lot of Europeans feel insecure about their identities, the social models governing their daily lives etc, economic neo-liberal globalization, ageing of populations, and furthering processes of individualisation only adding to these sentiments.
Hence the passionate debate about Turkish asseccion. At this point in time, it is not as much about Turkey as it about the current European citizens themselves. Before the members of the EU become more at ease in their new surroundings, before the turmoil of the last 15-20 years has sunken down, it will be very hard for European elites to convince their constituencies of any benifit of Turkish assencion to this strange and somewhat shizofrenic entity, and efforts of the US and Turkey to let the latter enter the Union will probably only backfire, making out of Turkey the 'negative other' a European identity will be constructed on. The European project is historically unique, and there are good reasons to -someday- ambrace the Turks into it. But as it is a project aiming to withdo to a certain extent the nation-state based international system by democratic ways, it will have to adapt its pace to the people. Currently, they are not ready. Going to fast will only cause damage up to the irreparable.

About Turkey not being part of Europe: They were insulted by the new maps of Europe enclosed with the Natonal Geographic showing both the Ukraine and Russia as part of Europe but Turkey blotted out.

They thought it would be better to convert to Islam than to ally with barbaric, yet uncivilized nations that are communistic.

The ancient city of Constantinople was there in the Ice Age when Russia was covered by a glacier! The area used to be called the "Near East." There are traditional rivalries between Greeks and Turks. Bulgaria was part of the Ottoman Empire at one time but provinces now in Turkey like Cicilia, were not under the Ottomans. Therefore they did not have the "benefits" of the Ottomans, such as the public baths and showers. They bathed in the sea.

Turkey used to have "clothes laws" such as outlawing the wearing of the fez in 1932. The Greeks objected to any article of clothing being against the law, since people can change their clothes.

Turkey uses the Roman alphabet, more "European" than Bulgarian, which is written down in the Cyrillic alphabet. In fact the script used in Turkey is more "European" than the Greek alphabet used in Greece. Previously it had all records in the Arabic alphabet and converting all the written material was one of the jobs in the 1930s. A lot of material was lost during the conversion.

Bulgaria, Ukraine, and Russia, with the Cyrillic alphabet used throughout, are the ones that should not be in the EU. Soldiers in Yugoslavia also saw Cyrillic on street signs in Serbia during the war with the Yugos..

The feeling of identification with the EU and the West, rather than the Communist bloc, which looms over their border, is their newest alliance since the acceptance of Islam. However, the EU is going to bring the high prices of the European bloc. Turkey never was a "moneyless economy", they like to barter and trade in the open market. The fixed standard prices of the European Union, are going to be imposed on them, and only wealthy foreigners will be able to afford it.

Then there will be the sad situation of most of the jobs organized around the "tourist industry", catering to the foreigners, and that is often a waste of talent. In Greece, mothers of "children" who smoked a hubble-bubble at a restaurant at the Plaka caused a scene. Also, they might level parts of old towns to prepare the way for the wonderful tourists that are coming in.

The country developers have done this so many times, alleviating poverty that the "tourists might see" by forcible relocation of the traditional population for Olympic games that last a few weeks. The people who go to Turkey are seasoned travelers. If Turkey join the EU they are going to meet the wonderful child-babies that come to the Olympics who cant make it out on the street and have to be "pampered."

I don't think they should do it. They should keep prices low and develop the counrty gradually. The development grants could come from countries other than the EU.

The Catholic Pope said that Turkey should be part of the EU but did he take the time to think how many great reasons why Turkey should be part of the EU and ask to himself why Turkey should be part of EU?

I do not believe Turkey has the right to be part of the EU unless it meets the conditions set forth by the EU being Turkey has caused way too many problems for many ethnic groups such as Greece, Cyprus, Kurds and Armenians. I am sick and tired of hearing people defend Turkey even though they have committed Genocides of different ethnic cultures and they have gotten away with it and ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!

Turkey must publically acknowledge the Genocide of the 353,000 Greek Pontions that were killed thanks to Kemal Ataturk, second they must publically apologized to the Greek Pontions, they must acknowledge the Genocide of the Armenians, The Genocide of the Kurds, open their ports to Cyprus, inform the Greek Cypriot Authorities where are all the lost Greek Cypriots from the invasion of Cyprus in 1974, remove all of their troops out of Cyprus once and for all! The USA must stop defending Turkey being has done nothing but cause problems and grief for everyone and no matter what Turkey does the USA does not believe that Turkey does anything wrong. In my eyes I believe the only country who has a financial advantage in the USA being they have easy access to the Middle East to gain access to the oil fields.

Turkey refuses to believe that they have done anything wrong nor that they have committed any crimes for which Genocide is a crime rather MASS CRIMES>

One particular gentleman wrote on this site that quote "I have great faith in Turkey, even if its EU membership drive is derailed, it not turn against the West." How could this man have faith in Turkey when he does not know what Turkey is capable of and what they have done in the past of the crimes that they have committed against Humans..Let this man sit down and speak some Greeks, Kurds and Armenians to get acquainted somewhat with the History....

This gentleman also said " It's Europe that concerns me." Let me inform this gentleman that he should be concerned about Europe but instead he should worry what Turkey would do. He forget at some and time when the US asked Turkey for permission to use their ports and army bases to gain access to IRAQ Turkey said no and was trying to bribe the USA....

Lets talk about what the Turks are doing to the Greek Churches in Turkey for which are being destroyed by vigilants and the Authorities are doing nothing about it and it is a sin to destroy a church and the icons...

Turkey has not been civil to the Greek Cypriots as one other gentleman stated in his remarks for as long as Turkey does not get what it wants they will not be civil to any ethnic country including Cyprus..

The history goes on and on and so do the horrible stories that people have to share with the rest of us. These are people who have in fact experienced some kind of torture or lost loved ones after being killed by the Turks including my own family who lost everything they have while living in the now Turkish occupation of Trapezus now called TREBZON by the Turkisg government...Turkey claims that all the land that they have is theirs even though that is an out right lie....

I could go on and on but will not do so. I also believe that the USA should not have any word as if Turkey joins the EU for the USA has no involvement with the EU and they should also mind their own business being this country has enough problems that need to be resolved.

All the countries that are part of the EU should put a plan into place and force Turkey to abide by it if they want to join EU. Turkey must comply with the rules and regulations set forth by EU and if they want to prove they are worthy of being a member of EU then they should comply with the conditions/rules set forth by the EU. All the countries that joined the EU complied with the conditions they were given so why is Turkey different than any other country and why should they do what they want? Is Turkey an acception to rule?

You would get more with Honey than vinegar so my message to the Turkish officials is sit down with the EU officials and comply with the conditions given and come to some kind of resolutuon in order to be allowed to join the EU. I am not against Turkey joining as long as they comply with the conditions issued by the EU..

I hope the Turkish officials will take the time and listen and understand that PEACE is the answer not WAR.....

The genocide isnt happened in Ottoman Empire lands .
if Ottoman Empire wanna be genocidedto that time ?
can anyone thinking ?? in 1400 ? in 1350 or in 1500 ?
ısnt you heared Magnificent Kanuni Fatih Sultan Mehmet ...
if they had do genocide ,,
we dont see europa or usa , or what is it ..
But they dont do ,
becoz Ottoman E. is stil missing state ,
they had equity for all kind of humans,
not only muslum ....

if Turks do genocide , never 1 ermanians lived
All of Turks history none have genocide ,
but if can wanna do ??
u will not there now!! ...
650 years only Ottoman Empire ,,,,, We will back soon .... maybe 20 years maybe 50 year ...
The Turks power must be continue ===>

if you see real genocide ,
look philistin ,
look germany,
look france,
look blody europe!!
And biggest usa ..
find it ,
your will be more than, what wanna find ...

ª Johan de Vries, Utrecht, Netherlands | Permalink

Dutch "allowed genocide" in Srebrenica

ZAGREB: Bosnian survivors of the first act of genocide in Europe since the Holocaust, the Srebrenica massacre of 1995, went to court on Thursday seeking to prove illegal conduct by the Dutch peacekeeping troops who stood aside while Serb forces butchered the male inhabitants of the enclave. The district court in The Hague opened hearings to decide whether the suit, brought by the family of a Bosnian victim of the July 1995 atrocities, Rizo Mustafic, should proceed to full trial. If the pioneering case succeeds, there are likely to be demands for financial compensation and it could presage a wave of litigation by Srebrenica victims, relatives of the dead, or Bosnians employed by the Dutch peacekeeping contingent. Lawyers for some of the victims have previously failed to reach an out-of-court settlement with the Dutch Government, demanding around £27,000 for each of the 7,942 dead, or missing presumed dead, recorded by the Bosnian Government.

- Guardian Newspapers Limited 2005

I think it is worse than some fictional genocide story.it just happened. it is fresh and it is real.

If your troops were so incompetent, what the heck they were doing in Bosnia? Were they vacationing over there?

"Basically your argument is based on inducing guilt."

I think it is worse than some fictional genocide story. it just happened. It is fresh and it is real.

If your troops were so incompetent, what the heck they were doing in Bosnia? Were they vacationing over there?

"Basically your argument is based on inducing guilt."

Apparently I am not doing a good job since your government just rewarded the soldiers that stood by while real GENOCIDE happened under your watch. Your government approved their job and the genocide they watched over(or participated too) and gave them 'Exceptional Service' just a week ago.

Did you ever sit down and think about how incompetent EU really is on everything? You let the people under your watch to be killed. First you need to judge those people who were there and than you need to judge yourselves instead you are giving them rewards.That shows your colours.

I think Turkey will be better off leaving you hanging and shut the door to your double standards, rotten EU politics and stinking EU parliaments.

NotoEU: well, you certainly show your colours; you've lowered yourself to insulting me.

To sum up; there is no moral imperative for the EU to let Turkey join. Not because of supposed riches in the EU, not because of supposed religious tolerance, not because of a supposed need to stabilize the Middle East (which amounts to destabilizing the EU in my view), not because of working immigrants (they came here, which is fine, there's no logical consequence that entails obligations to their _former_ fatherland) etc.

I think our politicians should be honest and say; circumstances have changed (the cold war is over and we've lost our faith in changing the world by being reasonable), we changed our mind, no.

Basically your argument is based on inducing guilt. For a long time that was the way to get your way in the Netherlands and in the EU. But there is no relevant moral obligation in this respect.

And with regards to Srebrenica; the Dutch were stupid to take on a insufficiently defined mission, the Dutch were weak in their military power, we failed in a dishonourable way.
You show that your own moral compass is wildly incalibrated when you equate Turkish denial of wilful genocide with the Dutch self-avowed incompetence in stopping genocide in a civil war in a different country. Let me try to spell it out for you; it's the difference between being a perpetrator or being a weak bystander...

But then you're grasping at straws.

Basically I haven't heard any argument that isn't wildly speculative why Turkey joining the EU would be advantagous to existing EU members.
Yes, there's one reason; land based access to the oil/gas from Kazachstan. But that comes necessarily with a direct EU border with the Middle East and the issues with contended Kurdistan, etc. It's just not worth it in my opinion.

Peace.

To BobL

"...A country as young as ours (225 years) with our checkered historical past really isn't in a moral position to throw stones at different cultures. Slavery was only abolished 141 years ago. The genocide committed against the Native Americans didn't stop until around 100 years ago. The way we treated the African-American community through the 1970's was disgraceful and only marginally better today..."

1. Bob - the US supports Turkey's entrance to the UN!!! So why are you ripping the US? It is Europe that is setting conditions for their entrance. Your attack against the US makes no sense!!!

2. We are a democracy. We own up to our past. We cannot change it, but we don't deny it or sweep it under a rug. Conditions have improved dramatically for minorities in this country especially in the last 40 years. Your statement about African Americans is entirely false. Do conditions need to improve for all minorties? Absolutely, but conditions are much better than 50 years ago.

3. Turkey has signicant problems which it is addressing including minority rights (the Kurds), womens rights (in part, cultural) and other issues which have been discussed throughout this forum.

4. American history is not a basis for allowing Turkey (or anyone) into the European Union just as Germany's history does not qualify Turkey either.

What is this talk about linking something called Genocide nobody know what it is it is like a moving target, with Turkey's accession talks to Europe, Armenians are not in Europe.

If Europe is so inclined about genocides I first suggest them take a look at theirs while French was murdering Algerians, and as recently as late 90s Dutch troops were watching while Serbians were massaccaring Bosnians in Srebrenitza.

Two issues are not related at all.
Along the history there were wars and everybody killed everybody.
Such has happened during the Crusades and nobody calls them Genocide?

BobL - A great conclusion to this discussion!

First and foremost, i am an Armenian who was born in Iran. I do beleive the Genocide happened. Turkey should abide by the rules and regulations of the EU if in fact it wants to join the EU. However what do they really have to offer in order for the EU to accept them? money? (they took 6 zero's off there currency to make it worth something) but it still isnt for a dime. The people are nice (some of them not all), also the world has to see and view the Turks as what they really are. I have always given the 2nd chance to the turk, but i always get burned and spit on when they find out that i am Armenian. So what i am saying if they want to join let them, what is it really going to change? if anything EU will realize there mistake, kick them out, and they will be the laughing stock of the world...They still have to acknowledge the Genocide, Crimes against huamnity, what they did to the Kurds and what they did to the Greeks and return Cyprus back to Greece.

Overall they are hungary savages who have no human morals what so ever, and they should all burn in hell.

Previous posting was from me.

Johan de Vries,
"where is the freedom of speech' etc. etc. That's the US way of doing things. We do things differently; denying genocide or incensing to hatred is criminal here. So we are not the US; and we are not going to give away gifts to make up for the wrongs that the US is doing in Iraq."

Exactly my point, you are requiring Turkey to void the Turkish law 301 that punishes anyone who insults the "Turkishness" but you yourself has laws that defends a Genocide argument that is not event discussed by Historians thoroughly and much of that argument is hearsay.

"Since you are not european it's not for you to decide wether Turkey is. Even if, let's say Korea, were remarkably western etc. it would not be a candidate for joining the EU. It's the same with Turkey. It's not in one specific thing like geography. As a gestalt Turkey does not share the centuries of shared culture that the other countries in the EU do."

'where is the freedom of speech' etc. etc. That's the US way of doing things. We do things differently; denying genocide or incenting to hatred is criminal here. So we are not the US; and we are not going to give away gifts to make up for the wrongs that the US is doing in Iraq.'

I am aware of that. That is why I thank God that I am not in one of those EU countries instead I am in US. God Bless America!
On the other hand, don't if that is your case don't force upon other countries that you don't belive such as Religious freedoms, Freedom for Kurds etc. That is not really honest. By looking at Europe from here I can see you guys are way behind us on many issues.

"The reason that a lot of people in the US want Turkey to join the EU is that there are substantial differences between the two and people hope these will become lesse as a result of membership. But that's not how things work in my view. Cultures are the result of developments that span centuries. These differences will not vanish suddenly. A coalition like the EU will not work anymore when differences get so big."

Yeah, right, these differences were not there when Turkish guest workes were invited to Germany after WWII and built the whole country from ground up and many other countries I might add.

"But it's not about discrimination. It is the right of european citizens to choose how they want their societies to be."

If it looks like a duck, walk like a duck, it is a duck.

My point was EU's double standarts which you proved my point by your post. Gracias!

"Your remark about me supposedly smoking marihuana is void of argumentation." Is it? otherwise how else will you come up with such noble ideas?

NotoEU: wether Turkey will join the EU is not about tolerance. It's just not in our interest. I repeat; if the US want to make up for bombing a muslim country and having 600.000 civilians killed they should have Turkey join the US.
Since you are not european it's not for you to decide wether Turkey is. Even if, let's say Korea, were remarkably western etc. it would not be a candidate for joining the EU. It's the same with Turkey. It's not in one specific thing like geography. As a gestalt Turkey does not share the centuries of shared culture that the other countries in the EU do.

The reason that a lot of people in the US want Turkey to join the EU is that there are substantial differences between the two and people hope these will become lesse as a result of membership. But that's not how things work in my view. Cultures are the result of developments that span centuries. These differences will not vanish suddenly. A coalition like the EU will not work anymore when differences get so big.

Your remark about me supposedly smoking marihuana is void of argumentation.

'where is the freedom of speech' etc. etc. That's the US way of doing things. We do things differently; denying genocide or incenting to hatred is criminal here. So we are not the US; and we are not going to give away gifts to make up for the wrongs that the US is doing in Iraq.

'what about the head scarf ban'; that's a matter of dutch internal politics. I will not go into that; wether Turkey is allowed to join the EU has nothing to do with discrimination.

'you are the intolerant ones to anyone not white, rich and Christian'.
Yes, a lot of people try to make the Turkey-EU issue about discrimination. Because that used to be the argument with which people always got their way in europe.
But it's not about discrimination. It is the right of european citizens to choose how they want their societies to be. And nobody wants f.i. that gays get beaten up even more because their sexual preferences do not agree with Islam. And that's something that is happening right now. The idea of live and let live goes very deep in the Netherlands but there's a very visible set of Muslims immigrants that use physical intimidation to get their way. That stance is imo not compatible with the way we want to do things in the Netherlands.

In other words; since you don't know what life is like in the EU at the moment and you don't have to live with the results of EU-Turkey your opinion does not really matter.

3. Turkey just isn't European in my view. It isn't called the European Union for nothing. Further ideas about letting Marocco etc join are absurd.

Johan de Vries, Turkey is European when it comes to European Council, European parliament, European Security Council etc. etc. and it is not European when it comes to EU. What kind of convoluted logic is that?

If you are referring to geography, last time I checked Turkey had a bigger land in European Continent than Netherlands did.

"The USA should offer Turkey to become a new state of the United States; that is something that US diplomats and US journalists (Washington Post, Newsweek, ..) and citizens can offer."

I think you are puffing too much chi cha chon in Amsterdam. Take it slow.

"2. with recent tensions in the Netherlands around Muslim immigrants I think the addition of Turkey in the EU will have the effect of Turkey meddling in these internal politics. Turkey is already trying to influence Dutch internal politics as it is through trying to manipulate voting behavior of citizens of Turkish descent."

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't your government forcing their thoughts onto the descendents of Turkish immigrants that also happens to be Dutch citizens by saying they have to accept the Armenian Genocide otherwise they cannot be candidates to Dutch Parliament elections?
Where is the freedom of speech and thought in that that EU tries to impose on other countries that is REQUIREMENT to become a EU member?

What about head scarf ban?
We can go on and on.

I think you are the intolerant ones to anyone not white, rich and Christian.

I do not know how moderate the Turkey is. I believe in religious leaders who use their religious credentials to promote peace for all human beings. Pope is one of the world leaders who believes in peace. He proved this by visiting Turkey. By visiting muslim religious places he proved himself that he equally respects other religions. This is very important to note in the given political atmosphere in middle east. There is a lot to learn for every one from this event. I am one hundred percent sure that Pope requested Turkey to join EU to promote peace in that region. I believe in his view, I respect his view and I hope that world leaders pay attention to his views.

This is all about money and religion, the EU is filled with unfaithfull people whom are afraid of GOD! Turkey should ask itself if they will be treated as TRUE allies to the Union. Europe with its EURO is trying to gain power just as Nazi Europe was trying to do in the last century world wars. So we should all think very critically, what does being a member of the EU really means? Has Europe really changed after the horrendous World Wars??? The US got so powerfull because it is a country of FAITH! Can we say the same about the European Nations???!!!

ATTENTIVELY,

D.P.

Amid all the talk about the EU being a Christian Club, we seem to be missing the less controversial fact that the EU was intended to be a European Club.

I am aware that 3% of Turkey is on the European Continent. While Hawaii is located in mid-Pacific, it is generally recognized that the US is a North American country, and not a Pacific Island nation.

Apart from the obvious geographical inconsistency, Turkey's culture, demographics, and history are all clearly at odds with the notion that Turkey is a European country. The small part of Europe that remains under Turkish control is the last vestige of an Asian empire that once spilled into Europe. When the Turks conquered Constantinople, they instantly changed it into a Middle Eastern, Islamic city, as would be expected of an Middle Eastern, Islamic nation.

The Turkish toe-hold on the European continent is the only reasonable underpinning for the claim that Turkey is a European country. Yet the UK was not considered an Asian country when it possessed Hong Kong, nor is the US considered to be an Asian country because it owns Diego Garcia. Turkish membership in the EU does not make sense.

It's all very well for the US and other countries to offer Turkey membership of the EU to increase world peace and what not. But that's not for them to offer since it will have no effect on their taxes or their internal politics.

The USA should offer Turkey to become a new state of the United States; that is something that US diplomats and US journalists (Washington Post, Newsweek, ..) and citizens can offer.

But the EU is not an ideology like Newsweek claims and neither a panacea in front of which differences will melt.

There are 3 reasons why I voted against Turkey joining the EU in a referendum:
1. I'm not convinced it's economically in the interest of existing members. The EU is a bureaucratic system of cross-subsidization. I expect new members who lag with respect to investment in infrastructure for instance to benefit greatly from these subsidies. I do not trust politicians to be able to judge how the addition of all these new members will play out. So to me Turkey is too big, too poor and powerful.

2. with recent tensions in the Netherlands around Muslim immigrants I think the addition of Turkey in the EU will have the effect of Turkey meddling in these internal politics. Turkey is already trying to influence dutch internal politics as it is through trying to manipulate voting behaviour of citizens of Turkish descent.

3. Turkey just isn't european in my view. It isn't called the European Union for nothing. Further ideas about letting Marocco etc join are absurd. A coalition like the EU only works when the members have enough interests and ways of thinking in common. I have great doubts about the recent additions like Latvia, Roumenia and Bulgaria too, with their levels of corruption. But I'm especially sceptical at the moment about the possibilities of coming to a shared understanding with muslims on a political level. Twenty years ago everybody in the Netherlands still thought that goodwill and an effort for mutual understanding was enough to build a society together. With recent problems with a subset of Muslim immigrants there is a feeling that sometimes differences in background are so big that it's almost impossible to come to an understanding.

In letting Turkey join the EU politicians are gambling and I don't believe them when they say the outcome will be for the best. They told us that accepting the Euro wouldn't affect prices and look what happened: everything doubled instantly in price.

I literally don't know anybody among my acquaintances, plain educated middle class people, who wants Turkey to join the EU and politicians have been going on with the process regardlessly.

I read a lot of comments on the web of people from Turkey who are angry and see the whole process as smacking of contempt; aren't they good enough? Personally I'd like to say that I don't think people within the EU have anything against Turkey. It's just that our goals and interests do not align.

Darius (Persian), Iran - I owe you an apology. I had no idea that there were Southern Ute's...I looked it up! So much for knowing our own cultural heritage. In any event, from what I read, the Ute's are identified by their liguistic family, all speaking a version of Shoshone, but their rituals and customs are very different. Anyways, the band I am associated with (and I asked last night) doesn't have a sun-moon dance. There used to be some "medicine" dances dances that brought the world in harmony, but no one practices them anymore. Rather like the world today, harmony-peace-humanity-community, have all gone out of style. We get right wing nut cases that look upon things like Turkish atrocities as an excuse for their racism and left wing nuts like Zoltan who look upon any criticism of cultural practices as an excuse to propound their neo-marxist form of anarchy. May they all disappear into history, consigned to the garbage heap of humanity.

ª AM, Vienna, VA | Permalink

NoToEU,Las Vegas, USA at December 7, 2006 11:37 PM
There is no 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' (except in Turkiye's mind), so there was no such promise. The EU has approved aid packages for the people who live there.

Really? If this is so how come they are a member of many international organizations such as Islamic Conference etc.?

You might night recognize it but others do. Even it is only Turkiye.
Heck even it is only me. The right to freedom was not given to Turkish
Cypriots in a golden plate, they fought for it and won. So talking about self determination and governing right who in the world has more right to say that I don't want to be treated as a minority and get massacared again by Greek Cypriots. If status quo is so bad how come there is peace on the island for 32 years.
So don't try to look the other way in denial, if you want to see something there keep looking and you will see it. Just because you donít want to see it does not mean it is not there.

"The EU has approved aid packages for the people who live there."
We are not talking about aid package here. They supposed to lift the embargo and give the same money they pouring into south. That is not nickels and dimes we are talking here. Obligations. You are not honoring the signuture you put on dotted line but you expecting that other side do. It is preposterous.

World history is full of examples of mans inhumanity to man. These examples aren't by any means limited to the Arab/Muslim world. Unless I'm mistaken aren't we (the US) vandalizing Iraq as we speak. Aren't thousands of Iraqis dying each and every month?

A country as young as ours (225 years) with our checkered historical past really isn't in a moral position to throw stones at different cultures. Slavery was only abolished 141 years ago. The genocide committed against the Native Americans didn't stop until around 100 years ago. The way we treated the African-American community through the 1970's was disgraceful and only marginally better today.

There is no doubt America has developed into a world economic and military force of super power status. However, our devoutly Christian Forefathers had no problems enslaving people, massacring people and actively engaging in discrimination to suit their needs. Our country wasn't built on a moral model as much as it was built on an economic model.

When I read posts villifying the Turks I wonder why someone would write something so hateful. Since there is no reasonable chance (sorry Pope) that the rest of the world is going to convert to Christianity (or for that matter Islam) we can either find ways to coexist in a peaceful prosperous way or continue the conflicts indefinitely. I for one would rather have peace and prosperity. In that light the inclusion of Turkey into the EU would be a step in the right direction.

NoToEU,Las Vegas, USA at December 7, 2006 11:37 PM

An interesting attempt to muddy the waters. There is no 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' (except in Turkiye's mind), so there was no such promise. The EU has approved aid packages for the people who live there.

In other words, the EU has fulfilled the obligation to assist the people. It has not satisfied Turkiye's desire to impose its will. But that is because the EU negotiated with Turkey, not Turkiye.

Jim K, Fort Worth,TX, USA at December 7, 2006 06:12 PM

'Exchange' ignores the events prior to the exchange. The Christians in the Ottoman Empire and Turkey were massacred. The population was reduced from the millions (about 5 million - Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians) to a few hundred thousand. (that was from 1895 - 1923: Ottoman Empire into Turkey; interesting, don't you think?) The exchange reduced that to 100000. The events in the 50's and 60's (that by the way is Turkey not the Ottoman Empire) reduced the number to less than 10000. The Muslim minority in Greece numbers in the hundreds of thousands, having continuously increased.

If Turkey is concerned about their lot, then Turkey can appeal to the Council of Europe and other organizations, where of course Turkey must provide evidence. Interestingly, there is no such appeal. In other words, this is noise.

The condition of the Kurds, however, is not noise. It is well documented, and it is not Greece who is raising the issue, but every country, except for Turkey.

Please tell the Turkish people to forget this applicastion
to join EU. Deep in the heart of European people will never
accept Turkey as equal. They will find the smallest excuse
to block the attempt. The other main reason is double standard
and bigot.
Let the Turkish people feel happy and contend that they are Turkish.
They can never be European, forget the big ego to be treated like
a white man.The only time E.U. need Turkey is when at war, they
need some suckers to die for them.

to Andy and Bob: Where to begin with such debilities ?

"I agree with the Pope let Turkey be part of EU."

He had also said exactly the opposite.

"I've traveled all over the world several times and the nicest people I've ever met were in Turkey"

"I was there (Turkey) this past summer mostly on the west coast and Turkey is more modern and european than some old traditional european countries."

And I've been to a McDonalds and it sucks: therefore the USA are awful. I've been to a Pizzeria, and I liked it: therefore, Italy is a nice country.

"For those of you who are complaining about Turkey."

And what about those who don't complain about Turkey "as a such" but about Turkey joining Europe ?

"get over it, we're in the 21st century."

learn to have intelligent arguments, we're in the 21st century.

to Darius (Persian), Iran:

"Greetings from snowy and cold Tehran!"

Hi !

"We appreciate the fact the Turkey needs to fulfill certain obligations. That is all fine. However, our concern is the never ending shifting and moving of the end post, our concern is that as soon as Turkey tries to fulfill one obligation Europe moves the post again."

You should recognize this for what it is: some politicians got overexcited and had proposed Turkey's entry into Europe, and today they realize they shouldn't have and are finding new conditions to meet to postpone that undesired event. Compare this with when a girl you're trying to date postpones each time the rendez-vous with new excuses, just because she doesn't want to hurt your feelings. Tough, but be a gentle-man: just walk away.


about MikeB: "No my dear fellow; you are no American Indian. You are a frustrated and angry individual (whatever you background is)."

Well said. Thank-you. I've been looking for such a precise description for a long time.

I beg to differ:

"The European Union has never been about borders or geographical limits"

one of the main reasons for the french refusal to the European Constitution is that people were afraid to not be the masters of their borders. Since Schengen, there are no more internal borders in Europe (well, sort-of) so the only effective borders are vis-a-vis the outside. If there were no questions about borders up to today it's simply because in everybody's opinion every European country joining was really part of "Europe", so the question was implicit. But in people's mind Europe is _very_much_ about borders.

For me and many Europeans, Europe's borders go to the Bosphor. Which means that a little part of Turkey is truly in Europe. So we have a hard question to answer. My answer would be that Turkey as it is today (including Kurdistan) will and should _never_ be part of Europe. If Turkey gets smaller, ideally reduced to Istanbul on both sides of the Bisphor, then I would very much welcome it.

"The Pope has changed his mind about Turkey's accession to Europe"

He only did that - I think - because of his lamentable statements about muslims being aggressive. This new pope is a jerk compared to Jean-Paul 2.

I too agree with the Pope and Andy (even if he can't spell) that Turkey be part of the EU. I was also in Turkey recently and had a great time. Everywhere I went, met the nicest people, beautiful scenery, and great food. I don't know what these people have against Turkey, but my experience was superb.

One prime example of turkish hospitality: was when my rental car ran out of gas late one night outside of Troy. Middle of nowhere, a trucker stopped to help, asked me if I needed to use his cell phone with broken english. Took me in his 2-seater truck with his 70 year old father and 9 year old son riding beside him. Found an open gas station and made the station attendant get gas for me, while his son flagged down another trucker to take me back. The other trucker drove me back to my car. Watched me try to fill my gas tank as I spilled it all over the car. He stopped me, dumped the water out of his water bottle, cut it to make a funnel and filled up my car with gas. Now that is hospitality!

I've traveled all over the world several times and the nicest people I've ever met were in Turkey. So those of you historians sitting on your lazy ass in front of your computer writing about what may or may not have happened in the past and criticizing the turkish people, I say to you go experience Turkey for yourself or SHUT UP!

ª AM, Vienna, VA | Permalink

"However the conditions that Turkey must satisfy are clearly spelled out in the accord that Turkey signed last year. What has 'changed' is that the EU is requiring Turkey to adhere to these terms. That is: recognize ALL members of the EU; Stop threatening war against members of the EU; Respect for minorities and other human rights.

Apparently Turkey did not expect to be required to adhere to an agreement Turkey signed. That means that Turkey is shifting the posts, not the EU. This is not an academic matter; it is essential to whether Turkey can be a member of the EU."

Yes. You are correct with your verdict. But on the same agreement, EU has signed to lift the Economic Embargo that it is imposing on Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus, which they are yet to honor. Why Turkey should be the only side making all the concessions? Isn't this double standard and double face of EU which is as divided in itself as a broken wine glass?

Read the following sickening crap.

Turkish converts to Christianity stand trial for insulting 'Turkishness'
(Canadian Press, 2006 November 24)
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=e60f1178-efe0-462b-a70d-16ff812b14be&k=72983
—————————————————————————————————————————————————
"ISTANBUL, Turkey (AP) - Two Turkish men who converted to Christianity went on trial Thursday for allegedly insulting 'Turkishness,' and of inciting religious hatred against Islam, the Anatolia news agency reported."

Academic's publisher found not guilty of "insulting Turkishness"
(Associated Press, 2006 November 29)
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/11/29/professors_publisher_found_not_guilty_of_insulting_turkishness/
—————————————————————————————————-
"ISTANBUL, Turkey —A Turkish court ruled Wednesday that a publisher who printed a book by an MIT international studies expert that criticized the U.S.-Turkey military alliance was not guilty of 'insulting Turkis