Readers’ Responses to Our Question (121)

I am a single mother of two, a nurse, and a student getting my. I am hard
working, sex dating and most people
say that I am very pretty I really don't know what I am looing for,
because this is http://sexdatingclubs.com pretty new to me.

I work in education and I am passionate about my job. I am very
close to my family adult dating I'm looking
for a guy to have some fun with. I'm a little overweight,
but who cares ... I know http://101-adultdating.com how to have fun.

All fetish and other weird stuff, links of weird fetish sex pictures
fetish I love to dress
up in fetish wear and be http://fetish.ads6x.com mistress to
my gimps and slaves.

"For success today look first to yourself."frank jvdfz[link=http://frankthefrank.info/]frank jvdfz[/link][url=http://frankthefrank.info/]frank jvdfz[/url]

Texas swingers, advice for adult Texas swingers,
Texas adult dating texas swingers service,
adult Texas personal http://texas.ads6x.com ads,
Texas adult photo personals, Texas adult singles ads

The active swingers kept me up most of the night
Information on the swingers lifestyle including swingers
clubs listingpennsylvania swingers
Every weekend there are swinger http://pennsylvania.ads6x.com parties
and events around the world.

The active swingers kept me up most of the night
Information on the swingers lifestyle including swingers
clubs listingpennsylvania swingers
Every weekend there are swinger http://pennsylvania.ads6x.com parties
and events around the world.

I am a very kind,caring and loving person.
I am very sexy females
polite and well mannered.I have a great personality and a
great sense of humor. Friendly couple with bisexual female
seeks other females http://sexyfemalesin.com for sexy wrestling matches

Swingers are groups of people who engage in open
ohio swingers sexuality
with others outside their own relationships.
Swinging married couple, singles, adutl dating.

For a woman seeking man sex and love culminate and unite as a heavenly experience.
Adult Dating, love, sex, friends and romance related articles.
man seeking woman
Free online dating on internet. People look for love and romance on the
internet in an online adult dating site. Others look for sex and only sex
it may be straight or alternate sex. http://manseekingwomanx.com Search our
Personals Classifieds. Post Your Free Personals Ad Today.

Meet real local single women and men looking for what interest you.
Singles looking for love. meet single woman
Dating service where successful men meet single women.
Online date free love friendship romance marriage relationship dating
matchmaking single man woman date personal ads. http://hotsinglesclubs.com

Meet real local single women and men looking for what interest you.
Singles looking for love. meet single woman
Dating service where successful men meet single women.
Online date free love friendship romance marriage relationship dating
matchmaking single man woman date personal ads. http://hotsinglesclubs.com

Find lots of new friends, partners or relationships
horny girls
but before the guys get this all they must like from
these horny girls the pussy http://hornygirlsin.com
A few hot and horny girls looking for a few studs

sale@mp3.com

sale@mp3.com

Free adult personals designed for singles and swingers to meet and share their
same sexual interests. Online personal ads, find new friends or an intimate encounter.
Place your free adult personal ad today. adult personals
http://adultpersonalsclubs.com - Photo ads for a variety of relationships.

Search Adult Personals of people who are actively looking for hot Sexual Encounters!
We have something for everyone. You can find ads from women who are seeking couples,
men seeking women, couples seeking men, women seeking men, groups and more...
We have the largest and most up-to-date adult personals of couples, men, and
women seeking new friendships.adult dating
http://datingadultclubs.com

I like to imagine myself as a model, like a fashion type.
It never happened for me, so now I'm going the
glamour route. http://www.geocities.com/swingers_ads_2005/ I came back
for the one in my green heels two days later.
The weather was warm so being bottomless was actually a lot of fun.

pymntfqv rglcxfv qenjks pmcefkzdh gquayz gixyz msgucbf [URL=http://www.iwvjnkz.cdajfyb.com]pwajvxirm ypfiuxma[/URL]

wonm nkxdufrmy vjcqugz utcfl ybazsg iajhs mqnjkdy gjpnwbi oxnuqa

nqpohcsm gernvikms cufgv smhzeivu dioafve tydnwcgru hzvokyw http://www.szbpqx.flsv.com

nqpohcsm gernvikms cufgv smhzeivu dioafve tydnwcgru hzvokyw http://www.szbpqx.flsv.com

nqpohcsm gernvikms cufgv smhzeivu dioafve tydnwcgru hzvokyw http://www.szbpqx.flsv.com

xmkpfhzr urixvw aiekc sgft tsxpmc iyvsmqnbp otiaju

xmkpfhzr urixvw aiekc sgft tsxpmc iyvsmqnbp otiaju

xmkpfhzr urixvw aiekc sgft tsxpmc iyvsmqnbp otiaju

Managed Hosting, Colocation and Data Center Services by victoryushchenkonashpresudent ...

HELP THE TAMILS IN SRI LANKA, THE DEATH TOLL IS INCREASING EVERYDAY!!!1

uNITED NATIONS: IN SRI LANKA PEOPLE ARE DYING. GET OFF YOUR LEATHER CHAIRS AND HELP THE TAMIL PEOPLE FIGHT FOR AN INDEPENDANY NATION.

THE UN IS STILL SITTING DOWN AFTER AN 175 SCHOOL CHILDREN'S LIVES AND 9 STAFF WERE AT STATE WHEN SLA DROPPED SEVERAL BOMBS OVER A SCHOOL IN TAMIL EELAM. WTF IS THE UN DOING, STILL SITTING DOWN WHEN THIS IS HAPPENING TO INNOCENT PEOPLE.

175 schoolchildren, 9 staff narrowly escape air strike on school

Sri Lanka Air Force (SLAF) Kfir bombers Monday morning bombed a school in Chundikulam, wounding a female teacher and two schoolboys, attending 7th grade and 9th grade at the school, Chundikulam Vidyalayam, located 21 km northeast of Kilinochchi, in the southern part of Vadamaradchi East region in Jaffna district. Three bombs were dropped 25 meters from a class room. A bomb that hit a tree exploded in the air, wounding two children and a teacher. Around 175 schoolchildren, 8 teachers and the principal of the school narrowly escaped from the aerial attack. TamilNet correspondent who visited the site of the attack witnessed a second air strike at 11:45 a.m.
(TamilNEt)

To B

"...The only Param Vir Chakra - India's highest gallantry award - to be awarded for combat in the Siachen area went to Naik Subedar Bana Singh (retired as Subedar Major/Honorary Captain), who assaulted and captured a Pakistani post in daring daylight atop a 22,000 foot (6 700 m) peak, now named Bana Post.[..."

Are you kidding me? How long could it have taken this guy to walk up to that peak at that altitude? He probably could make quite a bit of money running marathons in the US.

Actually, the whole situation is a shame. What a great area to explore if you are a mountain climber.

To B:

Thanks for the info. Sorry I am alittle late getting back.

Tom,

There are many disputes. Briefly, China and Pakistan are friends and China helps Pakistan to arm itself against India. Inspite of what Pakistan says about Kashmir belongs to them etc, Pakistan actually gave a slither of Kashmiri land to China just to win its friendship. The enmity is really of religious foundation but is never really spoken in those terms because India is secular and has more Muslims than Pakistan.

But one dispute is on the Siachen glacier. If you google search it you will find info.

To "B":

Because I knew very little about India when that region was mentioned in this forum, I did some reading and am totally amazed at the complexity of the politics i. e., border disputes etc.

As this forum touches on that part of the world, I'll be interested in your take on several issues regarding India, Pakistan, China, Afghanistan and the US role in the region. I'm sure you can provide some interesting insight.

Thanks for the response,

Tom

Tom,

Both US and India don't allow dual citizenship - it's a good idea. I was born in Philadelphia, UPenn hospital. But my parents went back to India after my dad was done with his PhD at Upenn, Wharton. I grew up in Calcutta. When I was 18, my dad asked me where I wanted to be, I said America had the opportunities and it was just a different kind of fun, so from then on, I am back to the motherland by birth. I am a US citizen and America is the land that feeds me and my duties are here. But because I grew up in India, I know about India and even though I am Indian by ethnicity, India still strikes me as a very a mysterious, mystical place, with a lot of history, and ultimately a place that has striking natural beauty, which has been dwindling very, very fast. It has some of the most close-minded people, and yet some of the most open-minded as well. I do like the Indian government, because it is a full democracy, even though it is corrupt, and many poor vote rather than the rich. Its constitution was written by someone from an 'untouchable' caste. Today it has 2 minorities in its top 2 positons, president and prime minister.

Traveling to India though is still going to be a shock for many Westerners, because there is so much chaos, poverty, pollution and law and order is not very well observed.

Hope this helps.

Regards.

Physicians for Human Rights (PHR) shared the Nobel Peace Prize in 1997.

When you read the following quote from a PHR report documenting how the Chinese torture Tibetans, ask yourself, "What kind of sick monster would torture a child by forcibly drawing blood from the victim?"

"Striking Hard: Torture in Tibet" (PHR, 1997)
http://www.phrusa.org/research/torture/tortib2.html
—————————————————————————-
PHR found that reports of torture among Tibetan refugees were alarmingly common. More than one in every 7 Tibetan refugees interviewed reported a personal history of torture by Chinese authorities. Many of these cases of torture had occurred since 1995. Many of those tortured were children or young adults. [...] Torture survivors were subjected to repeated episodes of torture throughout their detention and multiple forms of torture including repeated beatings, electric shock with cattle prods on the face, arms and genitals, being suspended in painful positions, witnessing others being tortured, deprivation of food or sleep, mock executions, being forced to stare at the sun for extended periods, and having blood drawn against the individual's will.

To "B"

I have a couple of questions for you if you get a chance:

Do you have a dual citizenship?

Where in India did you live? work? Does your job take you back and forth to India? India sounds like it has some beautiful scenery.

Actually, I was born in Boston (well, Chelsea). Personally, I love the northwest and have lived in different places in the NW for the last 30 years. I enjoy the mountain scenery.

Shen,

No one cares about each other's paradigm. The world is made of people, not of paradigms - the US paradigm maybe one too many I personally don't want to see yours. The total poulation of Tibet autonomous region is around 2.5 million. Tibetans in other 'Chinese' provinces will bring the total to upto around 5 millions, perhaps about 6 million. But the Tibetan population did not jump from 2 to 6 million in Tibet.

To Joshua Shen:

You have a tremendous knowledge of Chinese (and American) history. Just a few observations on China.

China is a repressive one party dictatorship with more than its share of human rights violations. While it is true, the US has a "tortured past", China's still continues.

Several hundred thousand missing (dead)Tibetans from the 50's, One Hundred Flowers Campaign (how many died?), millions died from failed economic policies (Great Leep Forward) and religious and political persecution that still continues to this day (although in recent years has improved).

China (and Russia) have propped up North Korea's dictatorship for more than 50 years. North Korea's brutal dictatorship is responsible for several million deaths of its own people by execution and starvation.
It is obvious that China has not made human rights an issue in their relationship. How can it not when a regime has been so brutal? Would you consider this a test case for China's sink or swim foreign trade policy that you mentioned earlier in this forum?

I find it ironic that the world applauds China's efforts to get NK back to six party talks when it helped created the monster that got off its "leash"; however, it is good that NK is back to the table.

With that being said, I have great admiration for the success in American society of Chinese immigrants.

The six million is not the total population of the Tibet province. It is ACTUALLY the number of ethnic Tibetans... please don't distort facts just because they don't fit your paradigm.

Joshua Shen,

"THE FACT IS: The number of Native Americans have been violently reduced to a bare fraction of the original numbers since Europeans arrived. The population of ethnic Tibetans in China have grown from 2 million to 6 million since 1950s. Their per capita income have also arisen since the days of serfdom under the Dalai Lama."

????!!!What are you talking about?? By importing mainland Chinese into Tibet, you canot claim that Tibetan population has increased from 2 to 6 million in 60 years.

Atheist, Boston, USA wrote:
"There is no equivalence between the USA (or the West) and China. For example, Americans do not deport an illegal alien who would be tortured by his government. By contrast, the Chinese regularly and forcibly (at the point of a gun) deport North-Korean refugees back to certain torture and death in North Korea."

You're right, atheist. We don't forcibly deport refugees to be tortured - we get the CIA to fly them express to countries that will torture them... or we bankroll regimes who commit torture until a decade or two later we decide they're an embarassment and invade on the basis of non-existent weapons of mass destruction... OR we forgo the quick and dirty route of "conventional torture" entirely, and let whole populations slowly suffer after dumping thousands of tons of depleted uranium in their backyard.

Gee, whiz, atheist - I sure am glad we don't support torture in this country!

There is no equivalence between the USA (or the West) and China. For example, Americans do not deport an illegal alien who would be tortured by his government. By contrast, the Chinese regularly and forcibly (at the point of a gun) deport North-Korean refugees back to certain torture and death in North Korea.

Time (Asia Edition)
http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/501060501/story.html
————————————————————————————-
[The Chinese soldiers, with the full support of the Chinese people, forcibly handed Kim Myong Suk into Korean custody.] As [Kim Myong Suk] lay on the prison floor, [a North Korean guard] demanded that she abort the fetus herself. Kim refused, so the guard began kicking her over and over again in the stomach. Then he beat her, and continued beating her as her sister screamed, until Kim Myong Suk blacked out. When she regained consciousness, she says, she "was taken to a clinic in the camp, and in the most blunt manner, they removed [the fetus] from my body.

sounds good josh - I posted the response before I saw that. I'll check out CSIS.
d

Just one last response to daniel: Please refer to my retraction. You're right, your comments are equally valid, and I applaud you making good efforts to understand the situation. I also refer you to the CSIS report and my comments on building common ground.

We all agree the race shouldn't be a factor, but the facts are that race IS a factor. We can't discount it just because we'd like to live in a more ideal world.

josh said: "It's no point debating someone on China who hasn't got his facts right and is based on some 'gut check'. Let's just talk about North Korea, shall we?"

haha... well... that was the point of my initial disclaimer. I'd hoped I could make a comment even if I didn't have your apparent expert knowledge.

The fact of the matter is, as sociologists tell us, race is socially constructed. It's has no biological basis anyway, so it's completely in the eyes of the beholder. Genetically, the Irish and the English come from essentially the same stock, but don't go to Dublin and tell them that the English aren't racist. So if you want to call it a regional thing rather than a race thing - fine - whatever. I'm not going to get mired in the fine print. But if you're only argument for why the the US is MORE racist is that African Americans and white Americans look less like each other then Han and Cantonese, that doesn't seem to be a very solid rationale - again I'd direct your attention to the Irish/English issue, or even Germans/European Jews, etc.

Besides, I think you were the only one that said that people ONLY talk about burning Tibetan temples. Sterilization of the Han, and the entire history of the Cultural Revolution are just as prominent in American's minds as Tibet and the Uighars (I hate to say it, but I doubt most Americans even know who the Uighars are).

Here's the point: China is growing and its growing fast and it's going to be a major player on the world stage. It has a violent, imperial, and racist history just like every other empire that we've seen - British, American, Islamic, Soviet, German, etc. WE SHOULDN'T DENY THAT IF WE WANT TO BE PREPARED TO DEAL WITH A RISING CHINA. It's not a pissing contest - I'm not trying to say that they're worse or better than America. I think it's sick to try and quantify those kinds of things. I'm just trying to say that we need to be honest about what China is and what it will be if we want the next three or four or five decades to stay peaceful. That's all I'm saying.

Also - the question may have been about North Korea in part, but when I got into this discussion I clicked on a link that said something about "what are China's ambitions..."

daniel

Okay, my last comment was uncalled for. I appreciate you all taking an interest in China, and I hope everyone realizes the importance for the U.S. to manage this relationship with China in the future. The fact is that we are increasingly interdependent, and a cooperative future is better than antagonistic future for both countries.

CSIS recently published a good report on "Meeting the Challenges and Opportunities of China's Rise". We engage with China not to coddle dictators, but for our OWN self-interests. We need to work on common ground issues like energy, environment, public health, regional stability to build trust to tackle less concordant issues of human rights and democratization.

Alright... that's it for me... I'm working on a massive China project and writing on this blog is time better spent for my work.

daniel:

How is that racist? Northern Chinese laugh at Southern Chinese, Shanghainese are arrogant to everyone, Southern Chinese stereotypes Northerners as macho louts... (by the way, you should see how people in Hong Kong look with disdain at Mainland Chinese folks... if anything, the Southerners are far more prejudiced than the Northerners)

Seems like we do the same thing with stereotyping (usually good-natured) between different regions of the U.S.

I'm sure that Chinese folks can be racist, but people keep trying to link it with the tortured history of the U.S. The problem is that there is no institutional policy of racial oppression in China like there was in the U.S., yet everyone wants to pretend that China only destroys Tibetan temples (no—they do it to all religions and ethnicites), don't hire Uighurs (no—they don't hire people who can't speak Mandarin—imagine if a Mexican immigrant tried to get an office job without any English skills) and generally sterilize minorities (no—they actually allow most minorities to have 3 children rather than 1 for the 'Han').

It's no point debating someone on China who hasn't got his facts right and is based on some 'gut check'. Let's just talk about North Korea, shall we?

Joshua Shen wrote: "Let me reiterate: I'm not defending China's human rights abuses. I'm against creating false racial parallels with America's tortured racial history."

I'm no expert on Chinese history or current events, but my understanding from people who lived over there is that they're pretty racist as well. I believe I was talking to a Cantonese person, and they said they were treated as inherently inferior by Chinese who spoke Mandarin. This was in a class I took on Hong Kong - and a native of China who was also in the class who spoke Mandarin just went off when the Cantonese person mentioned that and went on and on about how Cantonese people were just less intelligent people and were always so obnoxious, etc. and this guy was really laughing it up. Then the professor - who's lived in Hong Kong for a significant amount of time - just laughed with him and basically summarized the discussion by saying "ya, I guess other Chinese do view Cantonese people that way... kinda funny"

My jaw dropped as I listened to all this in class- I couldn't believe what I was hearing - it was the same kind of stuff that racists in the US say about African Americans; less intelligent, lazy, drink too much, etc. etc., but when its a Mandarin Chinese-speaking student ripping on a Cantonese student, the American professor just chuckles and moves on.

I'm not mentioning this to be too rough on China - I'm mentioning this to point out that racism is pervasive in every human society. It wasn't invented in Alabama in the 1850's. Josh would be foolish to think that the heirs of the Middle Kingdom wouldn't harbor these views as well. Usually, if your civilization starts out as an imperial power that thinks the universe literally revolves around them, you're probably going to have some residual racism - I think its usually been a pretty good predictor.

BobL wrote:

"Lunacy based human rights violations are different from racially motivated human rights violations?

I'm just guessing here, but I think people on the receiving end of human rights violations would fail to understand this point."

The answer: YES. You can attack China for human rights abuses, but don't tie it to the more offensive ethnic cleansing/abuses violations. When the regime oppresses everyone equally, then it's not the same as U.S. history of racism.

Let me reiterate: I'm not defending China's human rights abuses. I'm against creating false racial parallels with America's tortured racial history.

Joshua Shen,

You wrote:

"Discussion of Chinese treatment of Uighurs or Tibetans in comparison to African American/Native American racism is only valid if Americans adopted the same policies to white people."

THE FACT IS: Chinese repression policies are not ethnically based. They are lunacy based, with a even stronger oppression of Han Chinese. And reread my post about what exactly IS a Han Chinese."

This is an interesting argument.

Lunacy based human rights violations are different from racially motivated human rights violations?

I'm just guessing here, but I think people on the receiving end of human rights violations would fail to understand this point.

I really think you should check out Professor Cutler's Blog (www.profcutler.com). He writes a lot about Iraq, the middle east, iraq/iraq/n. korea and I have found a lot of his material very insightful.

By the way, when I talk about human-rights abuses committed by the Chinese, I am referring to the horrific crimes that occur in the present: 1996 ~ 2006. I am not referring to 1950.

"Kill and cull: China rejects doctor's testimony"
(CNN, 2001 June 28)
————————————————————————-
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/06/28/china.organ/

CNN reporter, "[Wang Guoqi is a Chinese doctor who worked in Beijing's program to extract human organs from unwilling prisoners.] He said his conscience was tortured after an incident in October 1995 when he was ordered to remove skin from a prisoner still alive. The prisoner — sentenced to death for robbery and murder — was administered an anti-blood clotting agent and then shot. Wang said the prisoner did not die immediately and was taken into the back of an ambulance where urologists removed his kidneys. Wang and other surgeons then harvested the prisoner's skin before putting the body — still not dead — in a plastic bag then into a truck."

To understand the nature of Chinese propaganda, feast your eyes on the web page at the following link.

"China Returns Sharp Retort to U.S. Report on Human Rights"
("New York Times", 2006 March 9)
—————————————————————————————-
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/09/international/asia/09cnd-china.html?ei=5070&en=1ba864e600234e08&ex=1162962000&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1162871082-0m/ltcoCdRLRDSUZj2hPgw

The Times states, "China today criticized the human rights record of the United States, arguing that racial discrimination remained pervasive and that the American military abused prisoners held at detention centers abroad. In a sharply worded response to the annual State Department report on human rights conditions globally, which was released in Washington on Wednesday, China's State Council, or Cabinet, said the American government should concentrate on improving its own rights record."

When any Westerner raises the issue of human-rights abuses in China, the Chinese propagandist immediately responds by accusing Americans of racism. The Chinese strategy is to exaggerate the claims to such an extent that they represent the horrific brutality that the Chinese have inflicted on Tibets, Uighurs, etc.

The Chinese then "enhance" their criticism by comparing human rights in the China of 2006 with human rights in the USA of 1830 (or better yet, 1780).

What is interesting is that most Chinese (not only the agents of the Beijing government) actually support this criticism. This observation is not an exaggeration in any way. Their concept of right and wrong is radically different from the Western concept of right and wrong.

We Westerners should reconcile immigration policy with foreign policy: our immigration strategy should be a subset of our foreign policy. The central assumption in immigration policy is that we allow Chinese immigrants to enter the USA and other Western nations because our living conditions — specifically, our freedoms — are vastly superior to what exists in China. In light of what the Chinese propagandists claim, we Westerners should rescind this assumption and prohibit any more Chinese from entering Western society: USA, Canada, Japan, etc. According to the Chinese, Western society is no better than Chinese society.

To understand the nature of Chinese propaganda, feast your eyes on the web page at the following link.

"China Returns Sharp Retort to U.S. Report on Human Rights"
("New York Times", 2006 March 9)
—————————————————————————————-
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/09/international/asia/09cnd-china.html?ei=5070&en=1ba864e600234e08&ex=1162962000&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1162871082-0m/ltcoCdRLRDSUZj2hPgw

The Times states, "China today criticized the human rights record of the United States, arguing that racial discrimination remained pervasive and that the American military abused prisoners held at detention centers abroad. In a sharply worded response to the annual State Department report on human rights conditions globally, which was released in Washington on Wednesday, China's State Council, or Cabinet, said the American government should concentrate on improving its own rights record."

When any Westerner raises the issue of human-rights abuses in China, the Chinese propagandist immediately responds by accusing Americans of racism. The Chinese strategy is to exaggerate the claims to such an extent that they represent the horrific brutality that the Chinese have inflicted on Tibets, Uighurs, etc.

The Chinese then "enhance" their criticism by comparing human rights in the China of 2006 with human rights in the USA of 1830 (or better yet, 1780).

What is interesting is that most Chinese (not only the agents of the Beijing government) actually support this criticism. This observation is not an exaggeration in any way. Their concept of right and wrong is radically different from the Western concept of right and wrong.

We Westerners should reconcile immigration policy with foreign policy: our immigration strategy should be a subset of our foreign policy. The central assumption in immigration policy is that we allow Chinese immigrants to enter the USA and other Western nations because our living conditions — specifically, our freedoms — are vastly superior to what exists in China. In light of what the Chinese propagandists claim, we Westerners should rescind this assumption and prohibit any more Chinese from entering Western society: USA, Canada, Japan, etc. According to the Chinese, Western society is no better than Chinese society.

By the way, when I talk about human-rights abuses committed by the Chinese, I am referring to the horrific crimes that occur in the present: 1996 ~ 2006. I am not referring to 1950.

"Kill and cull: China rejects doctor's testimony"
(CNN, 2001 June 28)
————————————————————————-
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/06/28/china.organ/

CNN reporter, "[Wang Guoqi is a Chinese doctor who worked in Beijing's program to extract human organs from unwilling prisoners.] He said his conscience was tortured after an incident in October 1995 when he was ordered to remove skin from a prisoner still alive. The prisoner — sentenced to death for robbery and murder — was administered an anti-blood clotting agent and then shot. Wang said the prisoner did not die immediately and was taken into the back of an ambulance where urologists removed his kidneys. Wang and other surgeons then harvested the prisoner's skin before putting the body — still not dead — in a plastic bag then into a truck."

To understand the nature of Chinese propaganda, feast your eyes on the web page at the following link.

"China Returns Sharp Retort to U.S. Report on Human Rights"
("New York Times", 2006 March 9)
—————————————————————————————-
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/09/international/asia/09cnd-china.html?ei=5070&en=1ba864e600234e08&ex=1162962000&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1162871082-0m/ltcoCdRLRDSUZj2hPgw

The Times states, "China today criticized the human rights record of the United States, arguing that racial discrimination remained pervasive and that the American military abused prisoners held at detention centers abroad. In a sharply worded response to the annual State Department report on human rights conditions globally, which was released in Washington on Wednesday, China's State Council, or Cabinet, said the American government should concentrate on improving its own rights record."

When any Westerner raises the issue of human-rights abuses in China, the Chinese propagandist immediately responds by accusing Americans of racism. The Chinese strategy is to exaggerate the claims to such an extent that they represent the horrific brutality that the Chinese have inflicted on Tibets, Uighurs, etc.

The Chinese then "enhance" their criticism by comparing human rights in the China of 2006 with human rights in the USA of 1830 (or better yet, 1780).

What is interesting is that most Chinese (not only the agents of the Beijing government) actually support this criticism. This observation is not an exaggeration in any way. Their concept of right and wrong is radically different from the Western concept of right and wrong.

We Westerners should reconcile immigration policy with foreign policy: our immigration strategy should be a subset of our foreign policy. The central assumption in immigration policy is that we allow Chinese immigrants to enter the USA and other Western nations because our living conditions — specifically, our freedoms — are vastly superior to what exists in China. In light of what the Chinese propagandists claim, we Westerners should rescind this assumption and prohibit any more Chinese from entering Western society: USA, Canada, Japan, etc. According to the Chinese, Western society is no better than Chinese society.

By the way, when I talk about human-rights abuses committed by the Chinese, I am referring to the horrific crimes that occur in the present: 1996 ~ 2006. I am not referring to 1950.

"Kill and cull: China rejects doctor's testimony"
(CNN, 2001 June 28)
————————————————————————-
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/06/28/china.organ/

CNN reporter, "[Wang Guoqi is a Chinese doctor who worked in Beijing's program to extract human organs from unwilling prisoners.] He said his conscience was tortured after an incident in October 1995 when he was ordered to remove skin from a prisoner still alive. The prisoner — sentenced to death for robbery and murder — was administered an anti-blood clotting agent and then shot. Wang said the prisoner did not die immediately and was taken into the back of an ambulance where urologists removed his kidneys. Wang and other surgeons then harvested the prisoner's skin before putting the body — still not dead — in a plastic bag then into a truck."

To Zoltan, hungarian, Paris

When I was much younger, I read a book called "The Bridge at Andau" (which I am sure you are very familiar with)) which chronicles the Hungarian revolution against Communist rule. It is the story of a people who overthrow their repressive government only to be crushed by the Russian army.

The courageous Hungarian civilians bravely fought against overwhelming odds for their freedom. Well, anyway, I enjoyed the book.

"...I thought it was Iraq that had the 5th largest military in the world ! Is this some sort of repetitive joke ?..."

It may be a repetitive joke to you but it probably isn't funny to the North Korean people as an estimated 2 million may have starved to death while building this huge military. In addition, an estimated 2 million more have been executed.

Now, take off your anti US blinders for just one minuit and answer a couple of questions:

1. If the US military had left South Korea after the Korean War, how many people (South and North Koreans) would have died when North Korea supported by China attacked for the reunification of the Koreas?

2. How many more people would have starved and been executed under the rule of Kim Il-sung after South Korea was defeated?

3. How many lives has the deterrant US military force stationed at the border separating the two Koreas saved over 50 years? (Hint: add 1. and 2.)

4. Is South Korea better off being a free and democratic state with an economy ranked in the top 15 in the world or as a unified Korea under Kim Il-sung and his son, Kim Jong-il?

"...On North-Korea, I'll rather take the opinion of a Korean."

That is a statement that you and I can agree on. In the US and South Korea, and in democracies around the world, the opinion of the people is clearly stated in the form of a VOTE.

I suggest you hop on a plane to North Korea and convince Kim Jong-il that you would like the "opinion" of all the people of North Korea.

Srikanth Raghunathan said:

"Surely, you must rememeber that China is not helping African nations becuase of goodwill. Africa has vast reserves of mineral resources (inlcuding oil and natural gas), and China wants to exploit them (just like the U. S. has its priorities elsewhere!). That is all."

No doubt, no doubt. I never ascribed to China any other intention more noble than the U.S. However, my point as I've repeated is that I'm willing to give the Beijing Consensus some time — that is, the idea that we'll stay out of a country's internal political affairs while expanding trade with them.

This concept has worked for Asia, which emerged since WWII through trade, not aid. They almost all had authoritarian governments, even Japan's one-party, tightly controlled LDP until the 1980s. Did the U.S. force Taiwan or Korea to democratize? Hell no. Did the U.S. break up the Japanese pre-WWII cabal of leaders after the war? No again. Did Britain offer Hong Kong any democracy until the few years before 1997? No once again.

So let's give it a shot. Provide Africans the trade incentives and allow their country to either sink or swim. I'd apply that to the entire world, especially against European agricultural subsidies.

Atheist wrote:

"FACT: The West — including, the USA — provides billions of dollars of humanitarian aid to Africa. "

Leave the USA out of this. The US contributions (relative to its GDP) pales in front of the other Western countries or other donor countries.

Most Europeans do not identify with American ideals. Not only many don't identify with American ideals in terms of social responsibility, government duties, business practices, many even reject American's style democracy. Shocking huh?

I can provide you with polls if you want me to.

The US government does not even help its own citizens in terms of social benefits, and you want us to believe that it thrives to help the black people of Africa? Are you kidding us?

The only reason the US government offers any "help" to these black or brown countries is because the whole process is part of a PR campaign to make up for the other countries it bombs and the so many human beings it killed and still kills with impunity.

daniel, Arlington, VA:

Your comment:
"Back in that Israel discussion we thought we were so opposed to each other initially, but we really are on the same page initially."

To be sure, I did not realize that I opposed your stance on Israel (as stated in your first post on this question); perhaps, I have amnesia?!

I, for some reason, instinctively felt that your first point covered my fourth point. However, I wanted to clarify to those who "might" interpret your point #1, which is "A renewal of American industry and American productive capacity," as increasing our productivity using the status quo. IMHO, your point DOES indeed cover my Point #4.

In my opinion, you will NOT sound like a xenophobe by making your case based on facts. You have NOT, despite what Joshua Shen, Washington, D. C., takes umbrage at some of your innocuous (IMHO) comments.

The facts are as follows:

1. We are educating a significant number of international students, albeit to a less extent in the recent years (especially after 09/11/2001).

2. Our economy was so good that most (almost 90%) of those students WANTED to stay back in our country and enhance our economic and technological capabilties.

3. Lately, international students' home countries' economies (Perhpa, to unsustainable levels, as some might argue) are booming to record levels and our employment is shrinking (Yes, I know that unemployemnet numbers are quite low at 4.4%, but that does not tell us whole story). Hence, they want to go back to their home countries. Those countries used to have a massive brain drain, now we have the "reverse" brain drain. Unlike you and I, daniel, they are NOT beholden to our country. (Do you catch my drift?) In fact, many of colleagues (99% of these are native-born Americans!) are working in India, China, Singapore, Dubai, Malaysia, et al. Most of them leave the U. S., becuase they cannot find jobs, here. And these are NOT mediocre people, either!

4. We ARE losing competitiveness, across the board.

Now, how do we staunch this? The following is my feeble attempt:

1. We MUST strengthen our high-school (K12) system. Our system is dismal.

2. We must enhance our undergraduate-level program to include hands-on experience. (Here, I am speaking only as a technologist. You may other suggestions, which I do not know.)

3. The whole world knows that we have graduate programs par excellence, bar none. However, even that edge is blunting, because most of the professors are focusing on "spinning out" their technologies into companies and benefit personally. Oh, by the way, they also use cheap graduate- and undergraduate-student labor for their start-up companies. How do you expect our competitiveness to increase? To top it all off, these professors completely ignore the undergraduates, because they are a darg on their "publish-or-perish" system. Furthermore, these professors are REQUIRED to obtain grants, or leave.

Joshua Shen, Washington, D. C.:

I believe that I understand what you are stating. I certainly understand that China is NOT as monolithic society as most people think that it is.

Surely, you must rememeber that China is not helping African nations becuase of goodwill. Africa has vast reserves of mineral resources (inlcuding oil and natural gas), and China wants to exploit them (just like the U. S. has its priorities elsewhere!). That is all.

Joshua, you are getting worked up unnecessarily over daniel's (Arlington, VA) comments on immigration and education. I am certain that he would have included others, too.

I truly believe that China will NOT be satisfied with being a regional superpower. They are finessing the Kroean situation to suit their own needs. Having said that, we should use all the help we cam get.

As Andy Grove said:

"Only the paranoid survive."

And, as Ronald Reagan said:

"Trust, but verify."

to: Joshua Shen, Washington, D.C. |

We do not count bodies - famous remark of USA General in Iraq; another sign of caring for Human Rights by the USA government.

China does not need to exaggerate USA inhumanity to man, just cite, Lebanon, Iraq, Afganistan, prisoner rendering, respect for democratically elected governments on Iran {1953], Allende in Chile, Chavez in Venezuela, Ortago in Nicaragua, the Panama Canal incident, Lebanon [2006}, ad infinitum.

enough said

Atheist wrote:

"In the case of Beijing, its agents (of whom some write essays in this forum) often use the following standard strategy for rebutting negative commentary about China.

Chinese Propaganda Techniques
1. Accuse Americans of racism and exaggerate it so that it appears to be as horrific as the Chinese slaughter of Tibetans, Uighurs, etc.
2. ...

I have identified only 1 technique — on purpose. I will identify #2, #3, etc. as time progresses. I do not wish to show all my cards at the moment."

(I can't believe I'm debating with a lunatic...)

MUHAHAHAHAAA.... Advantage: Secret Chinese Spy. You've revealed TOO much, Atheist-man.

It's not inconceivable that China does its own "regime change" in NK if NK remained a incorrigible problem which might interrupt current yearly one-way trade inbalance of $100B, in favor of China, should both sides (US and China) force to cross sword because kim no.2 is left uncheckered. China's permanent interest is not about pleasing or angering its friends/enemies; it's about its ambition to be great and its need to grow in a favorable political and trade relationship w/ the world, which it has now. Any obstacle to its grow will be treated as a grave threat to China; in this case, it's Kim no.2's wayward adventure.

A quick Chinese blitz from North (where every NK's gun is facing south), followed by a Chinese "Marchall plan", and a give-back to SK will ensure SK's permanant gratitude. And in the same time, edging out our influence on Asia mainland by been a "good guy" w/o antagonizing the U.S. Also, the action can be served as a dress-rehersal to gauge & improve its military capability, should its relationship w/ Taiwan start going south.

Discussion of Chinese treatment of Uighurs or Tibetans in comparison to African American/Native American racism is only valid if Americans adopted the same policies to white people.

THE FACT IS: Chinese repression policies are not ethnically based. They are lunacy based, with a even stronger oppression of Han Chinese. And reread my post about what exactly IS a Han Chinese.

THE FACT IS: Racial or ethnic constructs are completely different across different countries. You cannot apply America's tortured history to China, even though most Americans love to demonize China.

THE FACT IS: The number of Native Americans have been violently reduced to a bare fraction of the original numbers since Europeans arrived. The population of ethnic Tibetans in China have grown from 2 million to 6 million since 1950s. Their per capita income have also arisen since the days of serfdom under the Dalai Lama.

I'm not excusing China's horrible human rights conditions. However, I don't find any validity in comparing racial constructs.

Given the history of Western/Islam culture versus Chinese culture, why do we still ascribe to the Chinese the worst of intentions? Did China colonize Africa during the Ming dynasty (the most powerful in the world at the time)? Did China invade Japan during WWII (or ever)? Did China conquer Siberia, or was that the white Russians? Did China decimate the population of ethnic Hui, Tibetan, Mongolian, or Uighur?

No doubt China has been guilty of cultural centrism. THAT, however, should not be confused with race-based slaughter or far-flung colonialism. Indeed, the Chinese tended to accept any race that adopted Chinese norms. Of course, their cultural centrism was also their downfall during the Qing dynasty and Britain's drug wars.

Atheist brings up the billions of aid the West has offered Africa. Great, is that enough compensation for centuries of exploitation, random map-redraws, stirring up ethnic divisions (examine post-Belgian Congo practices). And what's more, what good has it done?

I'm a meat-and-potatoes type of guy. I could care less about lofty ideals of Amnesty International when they can't feed the population. You can't EAT freedom. Liberty is important, but food comes first. How has the West's billions of aid changed Africa?

This reminds me of Bangladesh's response to the Tsunami disaster of 2005. When the U.S. Congress was authorizing millions in aid relief, Bangladesh responded simply with this: Don't give us any aid; just eliminate all those tariffs and duties against our products.

So China now has become the biggest trader with Africa. Hundreds of billions in the past few years. I'm not saying the Chinese will save Africa, but I'm willing to give the Beijing Consensus a chance after decades of Western failure.

To daniel, Arlington VA

I agree with your analysis of the need for education change for USA citizens. I only wish to clarify one issue for you regarding foreign students attending university. There are more foreign students at university in EU than in USA - among them my daughter [both in absolute terms and as % of total student body].

with respect to science, math and engeneering it appears that Anglo-Saxon cultural heritage is in opposition to these fields of study for the vast majority of our [I am Canadian, with same national heritage] students.

Perhaps the solution would be to hire all these foreign students with advanced degrees in math and science and have them teach their subjects in grades 8-12. The nonsense that most teachers in these fields do not have at least a major [preferebly a degree] is contrary to good educational outcomes. You are right, fix k-12, then universities would not be short of native science majors.

Another issue, on the same line is that LAW and BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION [MBA] is overvauled on the market place, so the bright student will choose these fields rather than science and or engeneering /math.

Gl in reforming your ed system.

daniel,

Yes, the United States did some pretty horrific things to African and Native Americans, you'd be hard pressed to find many who would argue against that, but I fail to see how this excuses China's actions in Tibet.

In 2002, Chinese police (with the support of most Chinese, including the ones in Singapore, Hong Kong, and Taiwan province) tackled a North-Korean mo