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Tom wrote: Although it was not the "diplomatic" thing to do, I definitely support Bush's use of the term "axis of evil" to descibe NK.
———————
I'm not sure how you can say that, but I reply because I doubt that you are alone in thinking it.

What if I said, "Diplomacy" = "National Security" in the 21st Century? In other words, diplomacy is not a courtesy, it is vital.

On that score, Bush et. al. should be fired. Why do we tolerate or excuse these reckless indulgences?

Besides, one might wonder why there was an 'axis of evil' to contend with in the first place. Iran has no natural relationship with DPRK, except that they, for a time, both ended up on D.C.'s sh— list, which, in the hands of folks like Woolsey and Perle, sometimes, starts to look like a bully list, more than a carefully constructed policy engagement.

Do you support Hugo Chavez's right to call Mr. Bush 'el diablo'? If you read through Chomsky's book (that he referenced), US foreign policy starts to look, in some places, almost inconsistent enough that you might conclude whomever was running it was a 'madman', yes?

A little humility is in order when making pronouncements.

Should the world community punish North Korea and if so, how?
As the question stands, my response is for what?

Shouldn't you have said 'a handful of nations in the West plus Japan' in place of 'World' wanting to punish N.Korea? Have you not noticed that not everybody in the world views the matter on N.Korea in the same light as the US and her few other friends do? Scanning English newswebsite, I couldn't believe how the world's(yes, as opposed to just English, American and Australian) private opinion is evenly divided down in the middle. That's just in English domain. Herein lies the problem because, the US led alliance against North Korea is troding on a very thin line as a result of it's own perceived bankruptcy on moral/legal legitimacy. A lot of people believe that there is a clear double standard in operation, not only in relation to N.Korea and Israel but also regarding Iran. I wouldn't go so far to suggest that the US and it's allies, especially Britain, lead by examples but it will be in their collective interests to read the world consensus through multi-dimentional perspective, instead of an extremely narrow, polarised Anglo-American one. These two nations are the ones who are currently in war with other nations, along with Israel who in a habit of crossing the border line with Palestine and Lebanon to use it's high-tech machines on literally defenceless people, fully confident that it could do so and get away with it everytime thanks to their own nuclear stockpile and their friends the US and Britain. Also there's Japan, who officially has not apologied to North Korea for the invasion and occupation of that country for 36 years, during which time uncountable crimes against humanity were committed. Crazy or not, there must be a lot of North Koreans still living with the memories of the Japanese brutality. What do you suppose they must think whenever Japan cries out loud about the 'threats' N.Korea poses on itself and kidnapping few of it's citizen, though abominable as it is, when they have butchered hundreds of thousands of Koreans during the occupation which wasn't really that long ago ? I would presume'speechless'. As you can see, the problem with the N.Korean situation is, none of these nations at the front line against N.Korea does not seem to possess any moral authority in the eyes of the world. This situation is of course exploited by very devious North Korean leader to divide and rule the world consensus. It seems almost that the North Koreans are quite happy to play the victim of what they must regard as 'an agressive campaign' of 'bullying and hatred' led by the US and a few nations, probably because they believe it will end up earning them more sympathy from the rest of the world. We better be careful that this doesn't happen by not giving into the emotional games.

RDJRDJ, Princeton, NJ

Your post was interesting.

Shaky ground is right. The better basis for analysis is what has happened, what is, and what can happen. Reading minds and motives is a foolís errand.

As to the question, should we punish DPRK or not. I donít think ìpunishî is the right word. There is an implication in it that they have done something immoral or illegal for which we are to hold them to account. Certainly they have done something we and most of the world didnít want them to do, but at the same time it is hard to see where they have exceeded their sovereign rights in doing it. They havenít done anything we havenít already done many many times ourselves now, have they?

Personally, I am indifferent to the question of Regime Change vs. Regime Reform. That is an issue for the people of North Korea to resolve. Need I point out that Iraq is a daily display of just how awful we are at changing Regimes!!!

DPRK may have done what it has done for offensive or defensive reasons. In a way, it doesnít matter. No one, least of all us, has an intent to attack the DPRK so their nukes will remain unused for defensive purposes. That leaves offensive use to be dealt with. Who might they be used on? South Korea or Japan. They are not yet a serious threat to the US as they really donít have Intercontinental delivery systems. In any case it suffices to say that a nuclear attack by the DPRK on either Japan or South Korea will be treated like an attack on the US and the DPRK will be destroyed immediately. The Dear Leader is not interested in committing suicide, so his new weapons are useless for direct offensive operations.

That still leaves one concernÖ.that he might sell or gift some nuclear materials to Bin Laden or some other like non-state group. Actually, he would have to sell them a complete bomb since he is using plutonium which takes some pretty sophisticated manufacturing skills to trigger. HEU is much more easily assembled into a bomb. He would still have to worry about it being traced back to the DPRK, and if so, he just committed suicide.

My personal preference would be a slightly different policy. As I see it, this is not our problem, it is Asiaís problem, particularly Chinaís problem. Since the DPRK now has nuclear weapons we have to worry about our 35k or so troops sitting there at the DMZ. The first thing we should do is arm them with enough tactical nukes for their own and South Koreaís nuclear defense. Then we should make plans to remove both the troops and our nukes in a year or two which gives South Korea and Japan enough time to manufacture their own nuclear weapons for their own defense. China may very well then decide that disarming the DPRK of its nuke program is truly in their national interest.

I donít know if you would call this soft power, hard power or what; but it doesnít take organizing 60 million folk in the streets. I just want us to quit acting like RoboCop to the world and let others shoulder some of that burden.

To RDJRDJ, Princeton, NJ |

On your "...action-reaction-counteraction." point, China seemed genuinely surprised by NK's nuclear test. Diplomacy is definitely more art than science!

Although it was not the "diplomatic" thing to do, I definitely support Bush's use of the term "axis of evil" to descibe NK. At the time he delivered that phrase, he apparently was aware of NK's secret weapons program. North Korea's dictator is ruthless and wacko by western civilization standards, but knows how to play the international community like a flute. He is smart.

Thanks for the discussion and I agree with your concept. Much more effort and cooperation is needed.

To Cyril Edmonton Canada

Israel reportedly assembled a nuclear bomb in the early 1970s mostly with the help of France. Israel really hasn't needed nuclear weapons to keep the Arab states at bay...yet, but Iran's nuclear program threatens not only Israel but could cause an arms race in the Middle East with other Arab states

It may sound outlandish to say "Give them all neclear weapons - maybe we will be a lot more safe." But, I do have a question: What are all the countries with nuclear weapons - I heard a report on CNN that named most but said that no one knew if Israel has nuclear weapons. How could that be? Is our intelligence that weak or are we just looking the other way? Is the possibility of Israel having nuclear weapons enough to upset the regional balance in the Middle East? Do we think that North Korea is crazy enough to use that technology. I agree with most that we are more afraid of them SELLING that technology to some very bad characters out there.

I think we are on shaky ground, if we try to psychoanalyze leaders and base a policy on that most prominently. It may be possible to fine tune an approach or tactics, using an understanding of this kind of analysis.

The truth is that dictators do things often for the same reason as others and often for other reasons, as well, and it is hard to sort the two out, even more so for a secretive regime like DPRK. Stasis is sometimes not in favor of the dictator, in the way the it might be for a liberal democracy. A dictator sometimes needs to reassert authority, in order to keep the totalitarian regime 'in line' or for any number of other purposes. To the untrained eye, these actions can appear 'rogue' or 'madman', unprovoked attacks and actions. However, some of them might well have a logic to them, an internal political calculus, that is masked to us. True, some of them may be the result of "fits" (of anger, etc.) or other deeply seated paranoias (cf. Stalin's infamous insecurities).

All I am saying is that one ought not to throw up hands and say, "Wacko!", simply because it is difficult to analyze.

Your sense is not complete enough that the problems started with Clinton and center around a 1994 agreement, the breach of which you find somehow particularly instructive. The DPRK nuclear effort has been going on a long time. They entered NPT in 1985 (Reagan), but as you allude to, dragged heals on verification. Clinton's team responded to a breakdown in those prior agreements, just as Bush-43 did to the recent breakdown, after getting himself behind the eight-ball with his "axis of evil" gambit.

Putting that aside...

Suppose we start with a proposition that what we want is Regime Reform, not the hapless "regime change", which is such a open-ended loose cannon in the way I described in my first post. If one has a clear vision of where they want to go, then you don't have to worry so much about individual motivations. Instead, you can start to work to ply those motivations into the policy, instead of tailoring the policy to perceived motivations.

lumens:
Pretend that you don't have sanctions and armies and everything else. How do you start a public pressure campaign?

-60 million people turn out to protest nuclear arms proliferation, staging rallies, marches, 'die-ins', vigils. 20/20/20 North America, Europe, Asia
-A Conference of Religious Scholars is immediately convened as many places as necessary, London, Cairo, New York, ... Naturally, they disagree on everything, but eventually they agree to do what they can to re-invigorate the 'world communities' commitment to nuclear non-proliferation, the point that the fewer countries with WMD, the less chance that they will eventually be used.
-Russia, China, and the U.S. meet to agree what 'reforms' in the short-term they can seek from the DPRK. The Russian minister calls for "Perestroika". The Chinese Premier calls for 'responsible modernization'. The U.S. President calls for a new openness. All decide/chose a common list of a few things to press as case-in-point.
-The South Koreans reinvigorate their Sunshine Policy. They decide to hold a conference to decide the future of their policy and region. Potsdam was something like eight days, so they decide that "fly bys" from various State representatives are not sufficient. In the end, they are able to coordinate five days of open and instructive debate, with the help of the Japanese and the U.N., among 42 world leaders, scholars/experts, everyone who went to Davos for a week of fun and networking, and all of the world's press.

Slowly, what is "face" in DPRK starts to change, the sands to shift. The elites in DPRK start to get increasingly nervous about leaving everything to Kim. When the time is right, China signals that it believes it is time for Kim to "graduate", because the pace of Reform is not satisfactory. They come up with a possible golden-parachute for him, that further weakens his hand, promising him position and immunity and money and respect.

After two or three years of this or more, and some light sanctions along the way; it is finally time to continue the momentum of reform by pressing for more serious sanctions.

What's different about this? Well, it is hard work! One cannot just negotiate an agreement and pass it off to the CIA and the IAEA. You cannot just rely on threats. What's worse, there is going to be push-back along the way, so you have to be ready diplomatically for action-reaction-counteraction.

Basically, it calls for a fully integrated, applied, and multi-dimensional strategy. It's so much easier to just write a UNSC resolution and call for sanctions than to try to exercise true soft power ...

RDJRDJ, Princeton, NJ |

Sometimes dictators are dead set on acquiring nukes possibly for national pride and/or to build themselves up as a leader. In that respect, maybe nothing would have worked. When did NK restart their weapons program?

More lumens?:

1.There has to be a better system of verification e.g., there cannot be any games played like Saddam with the UN inspectors.

2. Sanctions work, but only if the world is unified against the perpetrater. Economics is the driving force although ideology is extremely important, for example, a democracy formed in the Middle East puts pressure on the monarchies and dictatorships. Maybe some system of compensation for countries that lose economic opportunities? (very costly and maybe impractical)

3. At least to some leaders, face is important, so maybe more recognition by heads of states (as you suggested), however, this tends to legitimize murderous regimes like NK. It is better than nukes though.

4. Sweeten the pot with more economic incentives (initially). Of course, that is nuclear blackmail.

5. Maybe Clinton should have hired you to look at that very same question, and we wouldn't be where we are at today.

As far as I know, the current administration adhered to the 1994 treaty as was put in place by the Clinton administration. North Korea broke the treaty. What kind of message would it send to Iran (or others) to just offer another treaty with economic incentives? The Bush administration was obviously backed into corner regardless of their foreign policy philosophy. Although it does matter how the world views our administration, in this case, NK is at fault and the US had no choicebut to take a tough position.

On the hypothetical nuclear explosion:

Even if we knew who supplied a terrorist with a nuke, it seems unlikely that most countries in the west would allow a nuclear retaliation simply because of the innocent lives lost. I see alot of tough talk in this area but look at the reaction when Israel bombed civilian targets where Hezbollah was suspected of hiding in the population.

On the fall of the Russian empire.

Let me turn the question around. What if the US had provided a huge economic package to Russia to end the arms race? The Russian economy was in shambles in the late 1980s. Would Eastern Germany and the dozen or so other countries under Soviet control be independent today? Finally, why would Libya all of a sudden see the light on WMDs especially since the US had invaded Iraq, and must have been seen as a huge threat? For diplomacy to work, there must be some teeth behind it in the form of sanctions or military action. Yes, speak softly and carry a big stick.

MikeB

Can YOU read your own materials? Nowhere in the Wisconsinproject.org link that you gave has anything about India selling anything to anyone. It was about Foreign powers helping India. In fact India used that to build missiles that report of your claimed, to hit China - this they claimed repeatedly. Isn't that the US's whole point? TO POINT INDIAN MISSILES AGAINST CHINA and VICE VERSA?? HUH??? TO FIND A DETERRENCE AGAINST CHINA?

Who the heck is "Johannes Leithaeuser"? None of the articles mention that name.

Perhaps you did not know this about the US. The US govt is decidedly MORE than just PRO-LABOR or just the American citizen. It has military bases around the world. It has to bring in the oil and the other natural resources that the Americans need to consume! Ok??? So in order to do that - to help people like you live - it has to be more involved in the world. So that's why all this. Otherwise it has to follow an isolationist policy and get out from the rest of the world.

I am smack in the center. Yes, I am pro-labor to an extent - but let us also not create a welfare state. Look at Harvard, Princeton, MIT? How many geniuses are really coming out of those places every year? If there aren't enough geniuses, don't blame anyone else.

So...I guess my exercise has proven that Boston B either cannot read or he chioises to selectively ignore what his eyes see. What part of the quote from Johannes Leithaeuser didn't you understand? And, as for identity theft, a Yahoo search simply points up an astonishing number of mainstream media stories for you to read. What's to trust? The Wisconsin project, if you go back and actually read my post, was in reference to Indian companies selling missile and other weapons systems. Denigrating it for not also adressing identity theft is pretty silly of you. It would be akin to my criticizing you for, oh say, not answering the question about sending U.S. jobs overseas and/or employing foreign workers in preference to Amercian workers. Which reminds me, ARE YOU PRO-LABOR, FOR AMERICAN JOBS FOR AMERICANS FIRST? Please let us know that at least, then we can figure out where you are cominfg from. No "wiggle words", now. Either you are for American labor or you are against it. The voters, readers of this forum, qand everyone else is holding the breath with antipation of your answer.

MikeB

I will never trust yahoo/google searches - especially referring to random websites. However, thanks for the few posts - let us go through them.

Your ID theft post does not mention India anywhere - so that doesn't help your case. Find something else.

As for Indian engineer spy, the one spy example, read it carefully, he belonged to the Northrop Corp. - "Noshir S. Gowadia, 61, who had designed the propulsion system on the radar-evading B-2 stealth bomber". First of all - a side issue, your 'crown jewel' technology was contributed by an Indian as well. The reason he sold his technology, "According to the FBI, Gowadia did all this for money" - on this I agree with you. It is about money. Is he a criminal? damn yes! But the US just doesn't give away positions to third world countries out of mercy - he had the brains to contribute. The US took a risk.

Lastly, your wisconsinproject.org link - where is the spying and and stealing? There is no mention of it! When China attacked India in 1962, India cannot remain a sacrificial goat - this is only real politik - it sought help not through spying or anything but through negotiations. Compare this with US real politik - bring all the European scientists after WWII to the US to boost its own scientific/space/engineering pursuits. BTW, it's how the US makes much of its income. By selling fighters planes and military equipments to India, Pakistan etc. And thus the politics to keep some of these animosities alive.

As for spies again, there are spies from the CIA in India who fund separatists in India. Don't you think that's an even bigger issue for India when the US govt sends agents to disrupt another country?
But I am not here to air my grievances against the US govt, even though there may be many. I am trying to refute your paranioa coming from misinterpretations and misinformation.

If the US is a victim, it is a victim of it's own foreign policies. Perhaps sometimes, it tries to be like the British empire of yesteryear. But those days are long gone.

"B" Boston, all - Well, I *have* posted references to these activities in the past. As a start, look here, for information on India's building and staffing missile and missile fuel plants: http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/india/misshelp.html

AND

"Iraq builds a facility for the production of ammonium perchlorate at the Al-Ma'moun fuel manufacturing plant. This chemical is one of the three components necessary for solid fuel production. NEC Engineers Private Limited, a New Delhi-based Indian chemical engineering firm, acts as an overseas buyer for the project. The firm delivers products to Iraq by way of Dubai and Malaysia. [NOTE: NEC Engineers Private Limited is on the German Economics Ministry's list of enterprises known to have been involved in arms proliferation.]
—Johannes Leithaeuser, Main Frankfurter Allgemeine (Frankfurt), 24 February 2001, in "German Intelligence Service Reports Expansion of Iraqi Weapons Program," FBIS Document EUP20010224000093, 24 February 2001."

ANd, here's another from InfoWorld on Indian companies being repsonsible for more than 80% of the identity theft:
http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/03/31/77031_HNidtheft_1.html

And, the theft of the B2 Bomber and other stealth tehnology by India, is under the headline "FBI arrests Indian-origin engineer for selling B-2 bomberís secrets" in the Free Republic:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1516042/posts

ANd, it goes on and on and on. So, "B", if I can use a search engine like Yahoo and come up with more than one million hits for India Espionage, most of it U.S. directed, how are you having such very hard time coming up with examples?

There is one other undeniable fact, Indian and Chinese guest workers and outsourcing aree not simply dangerous to the interests of this country, they take jobs from Amercian's. So, please proclaim proudly your politcial affiliations and the candidates you support and who think like you and post them. I'm sure we all want to know who is anti-labor, as I am certain that the U.S. voting public would be very interested in knowing who is all for shiping their jobs overseas.

Tom from Boise:

Few outside the US believe what you wrote about he Bush Administration policy. And that is a problem, because perceptions are almost as strong as reality in building up the kind of give-and-take that a true diplomatic exchange requires. 'Talk Tough' is not a policy or careful strategy, either for nuclear non-proliferation or for terrorism, frankly. How about, 'talk softly and carry a big stick"?

Libya most likely came to its conclusions as a result of the Islamic conference efforts to 'just say no' to WMD. From what we now know about the fall of the Soviet regime, we can safely say, without hyperbole, that Thatcher/Reagan bluster that precipitated so much spending was a massive waste of time and money (as well as accompanied by one of the greatest intelligence failures of the 20th century).

As for Sunshine Policy, I agree that would be interesting to elaborate. I was going to post some ideas, but I think that is the wrong approach. We need to unleash >all< our creative energies, which have been sapped by how lazy and comfortable we have become, lazy enough that threats of such magnitude are only thought of in terms of how they might impact America's domestic political machinations.

So here goes: It is three years down the road. A nuclear bomb has exploded in the North of Japan, not in a major city, though. No one knows where it came from, since it was not a missile launch. The world is at the brink. No one knows what is next. People are terrified, rightly so, almost beyond the capacity for rational thought (in other words, it doesn't look like a good time for decision making and/or national debate in the Congress about what to do).

1. Looking back, do you feel everything - absolutely everything - was done on the "Sunshine Policy" to prevent the outcomes?

If not, what more could have been done. Feel free to be creative. (So far as I know, the highest ranking delegation to visit was a Swedish lead EU mission in c. 2001.)

2. Is the question posed in this forum not forward looking enough or not precise enough?

Should it be, how should the U.S. respond to a nuclear detonation, the origin of which is unclear? Or, how should the world community recalibrate if China doesn't force regime change on PDRK (via rigorous sanctions, etc.)?

Is "Regime Reform" a better policy than "Regime Change", for China, for the U.S. (i.e. is there a way successfully and simply to articulate that missing end-game from the Rumsfeldian "Time will Tell" b.s.?)

Don't mistake me, I have no problem 'confronting' DPRK. However, the means to do it and the clarity of the policy are paramount. It won't do to 'muddle through' on this one.

Going by media reports the two greatest threats we currently face are acts of Terrorism and Nuclear Proliferation. Nobody seems to be concerned about the one country which is a proven and prime source for both.

The fact is that a) Pakistan not only possesses WMD's but is also the prime source of proliferation to regimes like Libya, possibly Iran, and in particular North Korea; b)It is also a prime and proven source of Terrorists, trained at local Madrassas; and, c) It is in the hands of a military dictator known for his adventurism (Kargil), there is no established system of checks and balances to prevent him from pressing the button.

Call it a lethal combination or a deadly cocktail, that is really what Pakistan is all about. AQ Khan is actually being protected by the Pakistani regime, under the guise of being placed under house arrest, US sources indicate that Osama may also be hiding there.

So you have a country that not only trains terrorists but also has the nuclear weapons at hand to arm them. It is ruled by a dictator who provides protection to the likes of AQ Khan and possibly Osama. What are you waiting for, a dirty bomb on the subway?

Srikanth and Thom,

In mentioning Senator Allen I was just being rhetorical. My little point: gross stereotyping works both ways.

It is people like Ron Ben-Yishai that will drive this world into the abyss.To imagine that there are still people like Ron who still think the USA and Israel will forever decide the way of the world is not only unfortunate but a clear lack of understanding of human development in genaral.Poor Ron needs to be answered the way North Korea did.Why is it that you Jews and Americans do not learn?You are ever making mistakes killing people around the globe.The devil or beast wants us to follow him all the way by crying God and Jesus each time he commits murder.To Ron I say the 911 event was your baby,Why?Because you people can do anything to convince other nations that terrorism is a threat.I know you can't even come to grasp that how can our governments(USA and Israel)pull such a big one and catastrophic for that matter?You are your own terror and soon the chickens will be coming home to roost.Like your failures in Iraq and Afghanistan you will also fail in North Korea.Did you know that when Hitler embarked on his murderers spree and invassions of the 1940s he had allies backing him.Today we have coallitions of the willing doing mayhem in Afghan and Iraq.But you know what Ron just like we view Hitler today,tomorrow some guy with his war on terror will be vied likewise.Watch history and wake up to the realities of this world.You are wrong to think that a nuclear bomb is for rogue states to invade neighbours NO,why don't you think it on the side of protection in a world where a superpower has been released like a cannon and is invading nations willynilly.Wake up Ron.

Srikanth:

George Allen, incumbent (not for much longer) senator from Virginia, is from Southern California. He grew up near Disneyland.

A point of interest when he passes himself off as a good ole southern boy.

(A good thing our president doesn't do that, who would vote for a cowboy from Connecticut?)

The US should sign an treaty with N Korea that, in exchange for N Korea's destroying its nuclear weapons program, the US will not seek regime change in N Korea. The treaty should contain provisions allowing the US and the UN to conduct inspections anytime, anywhere in N Korea to verify compliance. That's a win win for both sides. After Bush's invasion of Iraq for regime change and naming N Korea a member of the three part "Axis of Evil" along with Iraq, N Korea fears it is vulnerable to a US attack. The treaty would provide that. The US wants a non-nuclear wepons N Korea. The treaty would provide that. Simple.

Read the article at the following web link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/16/world/asia/16korea.html?hp&ex=1160971200&en=14bae32d5f71c3be&ei=5094&partner=homepage

Beijing is refusing to interdict shipments of goods crossing the Chinese-Korean border.

This information is excellent news for the aggrieved Islamic groups living in China. If you are a member of a group whom Beijing has repeatedly harassed (and tortured), you have an excellent opportunity to make a "fashion statement": you should buy and use a nuclear weapon made by Pyongyang.

Keep in mind that you should detonate the weapon only on Chinese soil. We Westerners will take action if you attempt to detonate the weapon outside of the Chinese soil.

The best site for a detonation is Tienanmen Square. That is where Beijing slaughtered about 300 students demonstrating against Chinese oppression in 1989.

Exploding a nuclear bomb in Tienanmen Square would be viewed, by most Westerners, as just desserts for Chinese brutality. Tienanmen Square is a large place and has several crevices where a device can be hidden from public view. As well, Beijing has an excellent transportation system, so you could easily zoom away from the blast center before the bomb explodes. I recommend that you explode the bomb in December. Ideally, the explosion should occur on June 4 to commemorate the Tienanmen Square incident of 1989, but around June 4, Beijing usually increases the number of police patroling the square. So, December is the best time. No one will suspect anything.

Good luck.

No, I am not joking.

MikeB

I agree there can be petty criminals who just sell stuff to get money. The Russian government has been doing that for a while now. Just for money. But I have been looking for proof of your allegations. There hasn't been any such news. In fact, Germany has been blamed for providing arms to Iraq, perhaps using Indians. But these are not the actions of the Indian govt. You are fearful that Indians are like some viruses, parasites etc. who will spill the US technology.

Which is ridiculous because - the US never allows foreigners to work with any sensitive information. All the off shoring work is silly stuff. Technicall helplines?? - that worries you? By your fears you are actually complimenting the Indians because you think somehow the Indians will figure out by reverse engineering some advanced technology. I have been to Bangalore - really, there is not much.

But also you have got to be a little less disrespectful. Indians did give the world the numerals, decimal system and algebra. Yes, Past glory but my point is they are not stupider than anyone else.

"B" Boston and all - All I was pointing out was the very real fact that Indian guest workers have stolen a great deal of critical and very dangerous U.S. defense technology and sold it on the international market. Now, I don't much care why they do this, I am simply pointing out that they do in fact do it. Now anyone can take a tour through the many newspaper stories about the incidents. You can also take a gander at the FBI statistics concerning espionage (more than 5000 cases in 2005) from these workers. You can toss off cheap insults all day long, too, but that does not mitigate what hs and IS happening. And, I do not "blame" the Indian's. I blame the U.S. government and the corporate swine who hire them to begin with. It's flat out insane to offshore the crown jewels of our technology and to permit foreign nationals to work on our defense projects, especially given that there are thousands of fuly qualified Amercian engineers and scientists who would be delighted to do the work.

maybe we could just replace the current USA administration because of their failures,
and get some responsible, hard working, non-napping executives to protect the USA.

Analyst, New York city

Nazism, Fascism were also Western ideologies. Please remember that before spouting off personal bias as information.

"On a final note, the comments that are expressed by Indians or Americans of Indian ancestry are quite typical of what you will find in the Indian communities in the USA and India. Most Indians disparage Western values and claim to not even know what "Western values" are. Despite this attitude, the Indians demand that Washington open the door to Indian immigration. Indians do indeed fight with tooth and nail to enter the USA.

The Indians themselves destroyed Indian society yet disparage the incredibly successful society created by people who espouse Western values. While the Indians disparage Western society (e.g., the USA), they demand to be allowed to live permanently in Western society. Who is the hypocritical bigot? You make the call."

Is this your personal call for the 'final solution'?

Steve, Atlanta, US wrote:

"So if you think India is "winning" somehow by sending it's best and brightest to the U.S., let me assure you what's happening to India is the equivalent of cutting the head off a dinosaur. You seem smart, so I trust you to fully understand that analogy."

I don't have any discord with what you wrote. I have tried hamburgers, visited and danced in night-clubs, argued endlessly with gays and lesbians in my graduate student days, and I have appreciated and remain grateful to the open liberal society that we see in USA. The scenario has changed, however. While in 1960s, 70s, 80s,and early 90s, we saw "smart, hard-working Indians" enter USA with a F-1 visa, getting MS and PhD degrees, and then looking for a decent job, we DON'T see that anymore. I would be cursed for writing this, but in my view, to settle in a foreign country one needs to get to know and appreciate the existent culture of the place. Appreciation and also assimilation in the same. You should try to see if you can find a life partner from the "foreign culture". Quite to the contrary a sub-culture of Indian Americans is getting created in San Jose, Atlanta, NY, Boston, Chicago, Seattle, Houston etc. The reason is that many Indians are coming here with plush and cushy jobs and making the big $$$, without having to be a graduate student like their predecessors. They did not get the opportunity to assimilate and appreciate the open, liberal society of the USA. They had the option of being shielded and, as far as I have seen, led a insulated life surrounded mostly by co-workers and fellow expatriate countrymen. This culture is most prevalent in the cities mentioned (where I have visted). Many (expatriate Indian techies) have the singular objective of maintaining minimal contacts with US life/society, get quickie rich, educate their children and see them married off, and return back to India. While this is not a very harmful engagement, it does create an alien nation within USA. (The situation of the Pakistani Muslim immigrants in UK and spread of Islamic fundamentalism in the world is a culmination of similar situations - cultural/societal insulation from the mainstream.)

The graduate student life of a the Indian in USA allows to break these taboos of insulation, whereby a student can afford to see thru' the cultural barriers and start accepting what is convenient and feasible for him/her. He/she cannot and should not consciously obliterate the past and become rootless. For example, when I go out with my son - who was born in USA, I normally take him to McDonalds, Pizza Hut and etc. We also frequent the ethnic Indian and Chinese restaurants, but we cannot forget the taste of a great food at Red Lobster. From my own personal life, though my wife and myself are Hindus and visit local Hindu temples on religious occassions, we don't have hatred for Christianity. Rather I have deep respect for the teachings of Jesus Christ, and consider him as divine as most American Christians do. (Remember that M. K. Gandhi was inspired by Christ's message of non-violence and derived the concept of non-cooperation and civil disobedience in his freedom struggle against the British.) However, would I just sit complacent if my son wants to convert religiously - for the heck of it ? NO. I would argue with him and in great detail and try to show him both sides of the coin. (Certainly Islam is a religion whose theories I abhor and very strongly disagree.)

The bottomline is that had I not been a graduate student, and worked thru' the system, I would not have the broad knowledge of who am I and where do I stand with my innate values and their relevance in a opne, liberal society like USA. This is what I am writing here.

Regarding the dinosaur analogy, I must state that Indians want to come and settle here in USA because of the still existent "American Dream" with the attendant liberal, open society - where individual freedoms are held supreme - 1st Amendment of the US Constitution. When these singular virtues will die, USA will be reduced to such countries like UK, or worse the Third World ones where corruption in the democratic institutions have forced people (Indians) to abandon their motherland for a better future. Thus, if India maintained its corruption-free and transparent institutions, migration to the USA would not have happened. But then again, if there was never this disparity in societal standards, and India had very good system that works for almost all its citizens to their satisfaction, population influx (immigration) would have been minimal. For in the latter case the enchantment with USA would not be that great to lure the the best and brightest from India.

Here is some advice. Do not attempt to discuss anything with anyone in this forum since you have no idea who the other person really is. There are known agents (of foreign governments — e.g., Beijing and New Delhi) who write articles in this forum.

If you wish to write an article, always address a point but never address a participant in this forum. Always write with the intent of convincing your audience (i.e., the roughly 1000 passersby who visit this web page), not the other anonymous participants.

On a final note, the comments that are expressed by Indians or Americans of Indian ancestry are quite typical of what you will find in the Indian communities in the USA and India. Most Indians disparage Western values and claim to not even know what "Western values" are. Despite this attitude, the Indians demand that Washington open the door to Indian immigration. Indians do indeed fight with tooth and nail to enter the USA.

The Indians themselves destroyed Indian society yet disparage the incredibly successful society created by people who espouse Western values. While the Indians disparage Western society (e.g., the USA), they demand to be allowed to live permanently in Western society. Who is the hypocritical bigot? You make the call.

Note that the Japanese have long committed themselves to the West. What is wonderful about Prime Minister Shinzo Abe is that he has publicly called for strengthening ties between Japan and the rest of the West simply because we Westerners share a common system of values. Shinzo Abe believes that Western ties should be given preference over ties between Japan and, say, China. Awesome! I like Shinzo Abe.

Finally, on the matter of Fareed Zakaria. He hosts a PBS program called "Foreign Exchange". In the inaugural episode of the TV program, he criticized Patrick Buchanan for not considering people like Zakaria to be culturally American. Yet, in a later episode of "Foreign Exchange", Zakaria openly supports Indian aspirations to acquire nuclear technology even though New Delhi rejects the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and is aggressively building nuclear warheads. To add insult to injury toward Buchanan, Zakaria then interviews and promotes the Indian candidate for the post of Secretary-General of the United Nations.

Buchanan may be a nativist, but Zakaria is not culturally American — no way, no how.

I agree with your comments.

daniel,

Democracy as a political ideology is Western but it also went through modernization after the enlightenment era. However, tolerance of other civilizatons is not Western idea. Greece was very homogeneous in race. Anyone who belonged to other races were often slaves. Buddhism and Hinduism alike [Not everyone in HInduism is from the uppermost 5% caste, there were many activists from the lower castes in history] preached tolerance of other ideas. So really, I think due appreciation of other's contribution is also a part of getting along with the world and diplomacy. India has given shelter to Zoroastrians, Tibetans, Jews from persecution all this before the British came to India. The West has done a lot, but all humanitarian ideas are not exclusively Western.

To Srikanth. Srikanth, I really have no desire to argue about this anymore. If you must know much of my frustration is due to all these problems clearly being beyond my intellectual abilities—which is really frustrating for someone with really nothing going for him at all except a mind. I state this as fact. I do not need pity.

But if you want me to define Western Civilization, I just imagine it as something of the extraordinary ability to allow for difference without loss of societal coherance—individuality and yet society holds together somehow. That is not a manifestation to take lightly. We rightly worship the manifestation of such in art and science. There is of course much more I could say...

My frustrations are due to increasing globalization breaking down national coherance within the U.S. People rightly blame the Bush administration for this and that, but what all too many do not realize is that the Bush administration can be spoken of as an extreme reaction to increasing national chaos—chaos which for some strange reason half the nation—the Democratic party—does not seem to see. But I can certainly see that there is an increasing bleeding into and confusion between the Democratic party and not only moderates from other nations but hostiles from other nations.

The only good thing about this development is that other nations are in the same position and no doubt feel their moderates are not exactly "of the people" in their own nations.

This Postglobal page is illuminating a lot and showing how far we have to go for worldwide unity and understanding. I am extremely pessimistic about the outcome. I would go so far as to say I understand why that woman reporter was killed in Russia recently. Putin seems to understand this terribly uncertain phenomenon plaguing all of us of a loss of national—even civilizational—coherance. I find it sad that I sympathize with Putin when he would have had me killed before that woman reporter if I was in Russia...

I really do not want to argue with anyone here on Postglobal, but I feel all too many people do not understand that Americans are fearful, uncertain, wondering what the hell is happening to their nation. And the rest of the world should be terribly fearful of their own identities because if Western Civilization is fearful—yes the Western Civilization which has made so many marvellous feats of integrating disparate ideas—then other nations really have no chance faced with increasing globalization.

Honestly, what does it mean for the rest of the world if not even in Western Civilization tolerance can exist anymore? I hope people reflect on these words because...Well because all I can do is pray.

As a final note to you Srikanth, I find it disturbing that you assert democracy is not just associated with Western Civilization and that essentially it has existed here and there for millenia. That kind of offhand reasoning about so complex and wonderful an idea which is virtually identical to Athens in all its glory should not be taken lightly (and yes I know the Athenians held slaves.—I am talking about the sudden jump in knowledge and art which occured by a sudden miraculous coordination between the ideas of individuality and collectivity.

Trust me Srikanth, I wish India well, but I am more concerned with the preservation of the highest aspects of human existence and I see those aspects in the perpetual solution to the problem of individuality and collectivity. And that is something of Western civilization....

North Korea is definitely a problem - but the real threat lies in China and Russia. As the United States seeks sanctions with "teeth," as usual Russia and most importantly China - watered-down any meaningful sanctions against North Korea just as they have with Iran.

Both of these countries are supposed allies to the United States, however if you look deeper, Russia is selling advanced weaponry to the Chinese and Iran - weapons that are built specifically to counter American warships and aircraft. Even worse, American corporations are still investing in China as they build-up their military and thwart us at every opportunity in the UN Security Council.

It's time for America to wake-up and realize where the real threats lie - and Russia and China are contributing to nuclear proliferation and supporting governments that are in direct conflict with the United States. Wal-Mart helped to build-up China's economy to the point they are a major player in world events, hold much of our debt - so anything the US tries to do is tempered with kind words towards China instead of condemnation for their obvious support of North Korea.

The Bush administration has allowed itself to be neutered by financial interests in China and now we have to bow to their will - and it's time for a change. Our anti-trust laws are not being enforced and Washington is more interested in profit than national security.

President Bush ÔøΩ ItÔøΩs Time for you to Resign!
http://justanothercoverup.com/?p=165

To RDJRDJ, Princeton, NJ

"The reason we are at this impasse is partly a failure to have concerted, long-term policy. A "Sunshine Policy" is fine, but it's lazy if you aren't constantly turning up the lumens. It doesn't work if your rhetoric is about one policy, while you pursue another (this kind of double-speak has become legend for the Bush Administration)."

North Korea signed a treaty in 1994 which promised everything necessary for NK to work toward normal relations with the US (in addition to economic incentives) in exchange for the abandonment of their nuclear weapons program. North Korea broke the treaty which has brought us to the current crisis. The sunshine policy failed (Although I believe the Clinton administration made the right decision).

I agree that the current administration is following the Reagan approach to foreign policy. This approach has clearly worked in Libya (knock on wood), and, in my opinion, was the reason for the fall of the Russian empire in 1990. This policy was born out of the appeasement strategy of pre World War II.

I don't believe regime change is the primary goal for us, although that would be a nice result for the people of North Korea. A return to six party talks and an end to their nuclear weapons program are the primary goals and the Bush administration believes that sanctions will will lead to the desired result.

You are entirely correct that China really is the key to reining in NK. Sanctions will not work if China doesn't sign on, and I have little hope that China will cooperate (even though they signed the UN resolution today). China does, however, have a stake in regional stability so "time will tell".

I'm interested in what you mean by sunshine policy while turning up the lumens. Maybe you can explain that in your next posting.

daniel:

Profiling based on anything, at this time, has proved to be futile. If that makes me unpatriotic AND selfish, then so be it. Also, speaking of my skin color, I am a mongrel with a "weird" color, but I can tell you that I certainly cannot be labeled a "white." If you are interested, you may also want to read Spencer Wells' "The Journey of Man." (There was also a TV documentary on PBS.)

As a matter of fact, I do see a lot of difference between what you term "Western civilization" and India and other countries. However, before I started pointing those out, I wanted YOU to define what the West means. Only then can I be meaningful; I would rather not assume. (I am sure that you know what "assume" means, do you not?) If you are referring to DEMOCRATIC prinicples, then it need not be pigeonholed as "Western civilization," for democracy has been around for millenia, if not longer in many parts of the world.

"B," Boston:

Senator George Allen is from Virginia.

Steve, Atlanta:

What you said is true; however, the trend is reversing, i. e., Indians are going back to India taking the skills taught in our country. (This applies to the Chinese even more than Indians.) In the final analysis, we stand to lose greatly, if we do not shape up - fast!

that what the United States is doing with PNAC as the hidden agenda for this administration and Complicit Congress, is destroying the integrity of the United States at the National Security Level.

Why did the Soviet Union Collapse?

What is the United States doing that looks just like that overexpansion, emphasis on the military at the expense of the countries infrastructure............

How stupid is this administration and complicit congress, that they don't see that robbing peter to pay paul leads to bankruptcy?

_ALL_ kinds of bankruptcy. They've already bankrupted the people morally and emotionally by playing the hatred, gawd, and jingoist cards...........stupidity and emotional responses to intellectual issues are rampant.

The middle class is missing and the manufacturing section has moved overseas. The Customer Service sector of the population is almost exclusively outsourced, and according to a recent television show, you may be shipped overseas to have your next surgery, if you belong to certain HMO's.

How stupid are you America? Your leaders are w/o a clue, and yet you leave them in office.

Arrest them, attach their properties, stick them in Guantonamo, let them feel _your_ pain as their own...someday, give them a military tribunal.

are at the bottom of the food chain intellectually.

But his use of the pejorative starting with N, would definitely mark him as being one of the disenfranchised brothers that is simply trying to use his citizenship as his pedigree for being better than.

Although it is the disenfranchised that make up a majority of the prison population.

Dumping a slave population out to compete against poor whites, with the plantations destroyed, and carpet baggers buying up the South....is really the reason for segragation.

The slaves could not for the most part, read or write, had no land, and no training in business or social skills that would allow them to compete. The jobs that were filled by the low class whites, were not offered to them. They were forced to stay seperate by selfishness, not choice. _That_ has never been fully remedied.

40 Acres and a mule would have eliminated a good portion of it, a hundred years ago. But for the record, there were indentured servants, serfs still in the United States in the mid 40's...they were called share croppers....they had no rights and could be turned out with no warning.

.

Steve,

India is aware of the brain drain for a long time now. I just want to add this as someone of Indian origin. The US selects for a certain kind of brain. Generally - for Indians who are very bookish. Other Indians here will take offense to my comment. But other kinds of Indians are there - certainly the people running the country are not lacking in brains.

Because this is what India has to deal with:

Really hostile neighbor on the west [Pakistan who has vowed to bleed India by a 1000 cuts],
hostile neighbor on the North [China who provides assistance to Pakistan],
poverty,
extreme corruption within the system,
protecting it's magnificent wildlife, environment,
and yet come up with something viable for the 1.1 billion people [US is already riled up about its 300 million].

It does take not just bookishness to come up with solutions for such an existence. It takes strategic thinking of the highest kind. You have not met the Indian politician yet ;-)

To: B Boston,

I would agree current Indian political ideologies fall within the broad scope of Western political ideologies.

However, our shared experiences (culturally and socially) pretty much ends there and that's a good thing. Both India and Japan have rich religous, cultural and social histories that are very different from the rest of the "Western Nations."

The fact that India and Japan can align themselves with the west should give all of us hope different cultures can coexist and prosper peacefully. It would be naive to assume western nations won't have issues with each other. They will. Be it trade, immigration, military action, etc., etc. However, the alliances formed have provided frameworks for working out these differnces in a peaceful way.

As far as western nations having identified human principles I would also agree. Now we just have to learn to practice what we preach.

A vote for 'punishment' is a vote for regime change.

Inheritor of the worst of the Reagan/Thatcher tradition, this weak President has fallen into the mold of the Richard Perles of the world, who believe in brinkmanship in almost all things, that 'talking tough' to Communism (or whatever) is actually a policy formulation!

Starving the PDRK with sanctions and penalties is their policy of regime change.

Unfortunately, the PDRK have Richard Perle's brain (something maybe he didn't count on). They know what is going on - even anticipated it. So now, Perle et. al., via their warped view of foreign policy, have brought us to this point in the world: nuclear blackmail (possible) vs. Regime Change (most-hoped-for-result).

Of course, nuclear proliferation is an issue for the whole world's peoples (and one reason to support six-party talks, not bi-lateral). Time was when nuclear issues would bring millions to the streets in protest. Today, the Western citizenry is fat and happy, and they have outsourced proliferation to the staid and weak levers of the old-world UNSC, mostly.

The Iranians, hot in nuclear pursuit, understand the changes in the world, and took time to develop a popular propaganda for their pursuit, to bring "the peoples" to heal (recall, its about "scientific rights" and there is jingle on the radio if you don't believe it).

The reason we are at this impasse is partly a failure to have concerted, long-term policy. A "Sunshine Policy" is fine, but it's lazy if you aren't constantly turning up the lumens. It doesn't work if your rhetoric is about one policy, while you pursue another (this kind of double-speak has become legend for the Bush Administration).

So far, brinkmanship has accrued mostly to the benefit of China, who are likely not to push hard enough on the sanctions front to give sail to 'regime change'.

In the end, nobody supports 'military action', not US, China or ROK. So, we have an unspoken policy of regime change with the vain hope that it will somehow be bloodless, effortless.

So how do you "sell" such a reckless, incomplete policy? At this week's DOD briefing, Rumsfeld showed how. When asked, against the now famous non-electricity picture of north-south, how more sanctions would help, he simply replied, "Time will tell."

And, doesn't that say it all? We go through the motions because we sense we ought to do something; but, yet again, this Administration appears to have no realistic end-game in sight.

William bob

Your comment just sounds bad with your 'Gunga din' portrayal of Indians. Wasn't politician Allen who called this Indian guy 'Macaca' from Arkansas as well? I guess they make them all the same in the South!

daniel

Western civilization [huge topic!] as Huntington puts it is about ideas - it's not about culture/society. Yes, he does talk about culture but not the malls, rockbands, sports etc.

According to Professor Huntington, both capitalism and communism are Western ideas. I am surprised you think Indians are just different, when Western ideologies represent the opposites of the spectrum of ideas. And my opinion is, current Indian political ideologies merely fall within this spectrum of Western Ideologies.

Western civilization for a long time has stood for dynamism - habits changed in the West faster than anywhere else. It stood for slavery once, but not anymore. But today the fear of being overtaken now brings up the need to identify what is Western. But honestly, today Western civilization did so well in identifying 'human' principles, that it has now deal with still old 'tribe' principles from the much of the rest. But even so, what practices are characterized as Western? You cannot say you must eat what we eat, or wear what we wear, otherwise you are not Western.

In anycase, you doth protest too much about Indians :-)

I would like to pose a question to everyone in this forum. Boise State University, which is located in...well, Boise, is undefeated in football this year. They are a mid major sports program that competes in the weak Wac conference. Question.

If Boise State goes undefeated this season, do they deserve to play in a BCS bowl game? David Ignatius and Fareed Zakaria...your opinions would also be welcome on this important (to people in Idaho, anyway) matter.

daniel:

Firstly, Sorry about the confusion. But your opinions are yours - I can't say much regarding that except suggest not stereotyping too much. I will attack wrong factual statements, because they are disinformation and they lead to propaganda and for majority who do not have to time to read in depth, such propaganda is very hurtful.

Back to you opinions, I will only say this. You mentioned Zakaria. Heck, I don't agree with him either. After studying in India, he voices quite anti-India opinions, perhaps because it is majority Hindu and he is Muslim. But that is his opinion. Even many Indians cannot stand other Indians much like many Americans cannot stand Americans. The first mistake is stereotyping people. There are all kinds of Indians. There are even Indians who are in race, Asian. Because there are all kinds of people in India, just simply sub-racewise, but perhaps you see a minute cross section in the US, you cannot give the same identity/characteristic to a billion Indians. Even a more homogeneous China has a problem trying to maintain unity among its 1 billion people. And India is very hetergeneous.

To Deb

You say:
"The average (median) income of an Indian family exceeds that of a white American."

That's great. Because it means all the smart, hard working indians are coming to the U.S. where their children will become 100% US, joining U.S. institutions. That's the thing about the U.S. nobody sticks by their heritage much beyond 1 generation.

So if you think India is "winning" somehow by sending it's best and brightest to the U.S., let me assure you what's happening to India is the equivalent of cutting the head off a dinosaur. You seem smart, so I trust you to fully understand that analogy.

P.S. I love working with Indian guys. I've managed to get every one of them to try a beef hamburger, and they all watch American football now. I'm doing my part to make this country a great melting pot.