All Comments (38)

The thing with religion is that people are human first. There is no perfect religion, let alone a perfect human. There are more Muslims killing Muslims in the world than any other religion, and this is what society sees as well. How well-taken would it be for a Christian or someone from any non-Muslim religion to move into a Muslim country and try to pass laws of Christianity that precede the current(Muslim)laws of the land?

The US has been known as the "melting pot" for centuries. An "American" is described as someone who respects and believes in the traditions and cultures that founded this nation. By the analogy of cell culturing all people who live in the US as Americans (there's about 12 million illegal immigrants in the US currently) and claiming that all American's are Christians, I must say that this leads to fallacy. Singling out point by point discrepancies in the Bible can be done with any religion, so going down the slippery slope is what happens to logic when it pertains to faith. This could also fit under the category of a hasty generalization or poisoning the well.

"The Iraqi says that the Shias and the Sunnis are settling old scores--as old as 1,400 years of hatred." So much for forgive and forget. How many versions of Islam are there? On one hand, you have "moderate Muslims" speaking out verses of the Koran saying that any type of killing is unacceptable. Then we have "radical Muslims" quoting verses that legitimize taking another's life due to Jihad and infidels. As an ordinary citizen, I don't want to have to decide which religion is the right religion regarding Islam. But from the looks of it, the people who practice and follow Islam still have yet to figure it out. There's just too much wordage for an ordinary person to have a differing perception on religion.

As far as our vicar's, they're not all powerful. That's what makes the Constitution the Constitution - a living doctrine, if you will. It has the power to be changed by those in power - the people of the United States. The only one true power the US sees is written on it's currency: "E pluribus unum".

To those atheists out there, prove to me that God does not exist. In order to stand for something, you have to believe in something. We live in a 3-dimensional world, how can you be sure there isn't a 4th dimension? Science even dictates that there are other dimensions through black holes and dark matter, which pretty much shatters the beliefs that God does not exist or never was.

America made a big mistake going into Iraq. It's not a war worth fighting for--not a drop of our soldiers' lives are worth spilling for that country and its people. First, they have to join the ranks of civilized nations. It is not our responsibility to force them to join that rank. A nation's people who are fighting like savages among themselves do not qualify in my mind to be called civilized. Today's Washington Post quotes an Iraqi as saying that even hundred of thousands of American troops cannot quell the violence among the Sunni and the Shias, let alone the twenty odd thousand that President Bush is proposing. The Iraqi says that the Shias and the Sunnis are settling old scores--as old as 1,400 years of hatred. What are we doing there for God' sake! Trying to bring peace to these idiots? They have to have some human qualities first like letting go of hatred which they have harbored for each other for 1,400 years! If Islam cannot even live in peace with itself, how can it espouse peace with others? There is something terribly wrong with this "peaceful religion".

thanks for the post. One of few posts I yearn to read ;)

This is a delightful and thought-provoking piece by Mr. Shakir. I find myself in agreement with him especially the sentence "If how the 10 Commandments were the yardstick to judge...we find ourselves willfully short on Christian morality."

But whoever said the 10 commandments were "a yardstick to measure Christian-ness?" They were given to Moses on Mt. Sinai and are followed by Jews, Christians, and equally revered by Muslims.

I love and agree with the line on "Thou shall not kill." How this supposedly "Christian nation" aka Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson crowd is in breach of the fundamentals as they supported the killing of thousands of innocent Iraqis on the morally-legally bankrupt concept of 'pre-emption' which was a nicer way of saying aggression. They cheer-leaded the invasion and egged born-again Bush's so that may fulfill their ever-changing interpretations of world events of the "Book of Revelations" so they may profit from more best sellers. They wanted turmoil in Mesopotamia to bring about Armaggedon and they got one. Ask those quarter million dead Iraqis if they care about this liberatation.

You gotta love "TruthSeeker's" comment above. A typical, pro-Jewish, Israeli-festive, anti-Muslim propaganda. For shame.

He doesn't admit that few thousands Turks did indeed protest the Pope's visit. But he fails to mention and convieniently omits that:

1) It was peaceful protest.

2) Organized by Turkish nationalists who felt betrayed by the Pope's call to exlude their nation from the EU purely because it was an "Islamic majority" nation.

3) Also it wasn't forgotten that a month before the Pope willfully, flagrantly, cleverly denigrated Prophet Muhammad by quoting a rival Christian Emperor who claimed he brought "nothing but evil in the world."

4) If 20,000 Turks doth protested the Pope's visit: 59,187,000 didn't and many welcomed him as a "guest."

The claim that Israel (LOL) protects Muslim holy places (Al-Aqsa mosque) is laudable...but the mount majority of Jews claim as their own, especially a growing right-wing constituency who want to tear it down.

Its no wonder Ariel Sharon provoked the latest Palestinian uprising, the intifada in 2000, by willfully denigrating the holy place by walking in on the Muslim Dome of the Rock with not only his shoes (considered offensive and dirty in Middle Eastern culture) but with 1,000 armed and loaded security guards to send a message that "this is ours."

Let us not forget that while Jews were driven out by the Christians, it was Muslims under Caliph Omar who welcomed them back to the city and kept sacred their holy places and granted Jerusalem's inhabitants freedom to worship their faith in their church.

I haven't heard of ONE INSTANCE where the Jewish Temple Mount has been destroyed by a pious OR a deviant Muslim ruler as it was by Babylonians and the Romans.

It is therefore a testament to Muslim tolerance that the Western Wall still stands and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre's keys till this day is entrusted to a Muslim-keeper.

IN THE DAYS before Pope Benedict XVI's visit last Thursday to the Hagia Sophia complex in Istanbul, Muslims and Turks expressed fear, apprehension and rage. "The risk," according to Turkey's independent newspaper Vatan, "is that Benedict will send Turkey's Muslims and much of the Islamic world into paroxysms of fury if there is any perception that the pope is trying to re-appropriate a Christian center that fell to Muslims." Apparently making the sign of the cross or any other gesture of Christian worship in Hagia Sophia constitutes such a sacrilege.

Built in the 6th century, Hagia Sophia — Greek for "Holy Wisdom" — was Christendom's greatest and most celebrated church. After parrying centuries of jihadi thrusts from Arabs, Constantinople — now Istanbul — was finally sacked by Turks in 1453, and Hagia Sophia's crosses were desecrated, its icons defaced. Along with thousands of other churches in the Byzantine Empire, it was immediately converted into a mosque, the tall minarets of Islam surrounding it in triumph. Nearly 500 years later, in 1935, as part of reformer Kemal Ataturk's drive to modernize Turkey, Hagia Sophia was secularized and transformed into a museum.

Protests aimed at keeping the pope out of Hagia Sophia rocked Istanbul right up to the morning of his visit to the site. Contrast that intolerance with the tolerance granted Muslims in regard to the Al Aqsa mosque — this time, an Islamic site in Jerusalem annexed by Judaism.

Unlike the permanent Muslim desecration of Hagia Sophia, after Israel's victory in the 1967 war, the Jews did not deface or convert the mosque into a Jewish synagogue or temple, even though the Al Aqsa mosque is deliberately built atop the remains of the Temple Mount, the holiest site of Judaism and, by extension, an important site for Christians. Moreover, since reclaiming the Temple Mount, Israel has granted Muslims control over the Al Aqsa mosque (except during times of crises).

All this illustrates the privileged status that many Muslims expect in the international arena. When Muslims conquer non-Muslim territories — such as Constantinople, not to mention all of North Africa, Spain and southwest Asia — those whom they have conquered as well as their descendants are not to expect any apologies, let alone political or territorial concessions.

Herein lies the conundrum. When Islamists wage jihad — past, present and future — conquering and consolidating non-Muslim territories and centers in the name of Islam, never once considering to cede them back to their previous owners, they ultimately demonstrate that they live by the age-old adage "might makes right." That's fine; many people agree with this Hobbesian view.

But if we live in a world where the strong rule and the weak submit, why is it that whenever Muslim regions are conquered, such as in the case of Palestine, the same Islamists who would never concede one inch of Islam's conquests resort to the United Nations and the court of public opinion, demanding justice, restitutions, rights and so forth?

Put another way, when Muslims beat infidels, it's just too bad for the latter; they must submit to their new overlords' rules with all the attendant discrimination and humiliation mandated for non-Muslims. Yet when Islam is beaten, demands for apologies and concessions are expected from the infidel world at large.

Double standards do not make for international justice. Either territorial conquests are always unjust and should therefore be ameliorated through concessions, or else they are merely a manifestation of the natural order of things — that is, survival of the fittest.

If some Muslims wish to wage eternal jihad until Islam dominates the globe, they are only being true to Islam and its doctrines as they understand it. However, in that case, where the world is divided into two warring camps, Islam and Infidelity — or, in Islamic terms, the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War — how can these Muslims expect any concessions from the international community? The natural conclusion of the view that "might makes right" is "to the victor go the spoils."

The fact that Turkey conquered Constantinople more than 500 years ago does not prevent the Turkish government from returning Hagia Sophia to Christendom today, which would undoubtedly be a great gesture. But of course that can never be. The Muslim world would undergo a "paroxysm of fury" if a Christian pope dares pray in the conquered church; what would the Muslim world do if Hagia Sophia were actually converted back to a church?

But perhaps Muslims cannot be blamed for expecting special treatment, as well as believing that jihad is righteous and decreed by the Almighty. The West constantly goes out of its way to confirm such convictions. By criticizing itself, apologizing and offering concessions — all things the Islamic world has yet to do — the West reaffirms that Islam has a privileged status in the world.

And what did the pope do in his controversial visit to Hagia Sophia? He refrained from any gesture that could be misconstrued as Christian worship and merely took in the sights of the museum. Moreover, when he was invited into the Blue Mosque nearby, he respectfully took off his shoes and prayed, eyes downcast, standing next to the grand mufti of Istanbul like a true dhimmi — a subdued non-Muslim living under Islamic law and acknowledging Islamic superiority.

And therein is the final lesson. Muslims' zeal for their holy places and lands is not intrinsically blameworthy. Indeed, there's something to be said about being passionate and protective of one's own. Here the secular West — Christendom's prodigal son and true usurper — can learn something from Islam. For whenever and wherever the West concedes ideologically, politically and especially spiritually, Islam will be sure to conquer. If might does not make right, zeal apparently does.

Victoria,

I disagree. Babies are born innocent, free of intolerance and hate. These are taught to them (inserted in their hearts) by their parents and peers later on. Religion accelerates the process.

Although I agree that the government of the US was set up to avoid enshrining any religion or subset of a religion as part of the government, Americans take their religious obligcations to their fellow man very seriously.

This passage of the Gospel has found its best expression so far in American political and social policy.

Matthew 25:31-46
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

This specific quote is not part of the Jewish tradition. What IS part of the Jewish tradition is reiterated and expanded in the Christian tradition:

Luke 10:25-37
25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? 27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. 28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. 29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? 30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, 34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. 36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? 37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Americans love their country because they see what other countries do to the "least" among them. The implementation is not perfect, but it is a good start.

And what is an islamic state? One that oppresses women, discriminates vs. non-Muslims and even Muslims of a different sect? One that encourages suicide bombers?

Get your body down and your butts in the air!

Victoria,

I have no interest in discussing anything with you. I simply responded to the question and this fellow's comment.

Thank you.

you cant insert hate and intolerance into someones heart. if it is not there, no amount of blind allegiance will create it. its just a sad fact that some people possess these attributes and will seek out ways to justify their actions.

there are good and bad in every category of human you can find to put them in

Arif Nurwahyu,

Are you a practicing whack-job or does it come naturally?

Your religion allows you honor killing. There is no honor in killing, only eternal shame.

Get a grip bud, and worry about your own morality, what little of it there is.

Roy:

When visited by Mormon missionaries demand to be heard first. Be brief. I've found that they can't take a sermon longer than 30 minutes before the give up.

When Jehovah's Wittnesses show up at your door insist that you are God. Give them a thorough tongue lashing for bothering your people. Works!

When a Baptist shows up, and they do too, insist on knowing what they are saving you from. Then invite them to hear the true interpretation of the Bible, #1501, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul

What to do in case of a Muslim missionary I can't tell you. Yet. I'll think of something.

Don't go missionaring in China. It's against the law and they will throw you in Jail. Has something to do with religionlessness. I think a strong desire for a cohesive society has something to do with it too.

Some of the comments by Muslims in this thread demonstrate their intolerance and disdain for people of other religions is no less onerous than that of the Christian extremists or hypocrites they attack. In a nutshell, blind allegiance to the demagogues of any faith breeds hate and intolerance unlike the supposed tenants of the very religion itself. May a plague of Mormon missionaries infest your Mosques.

In my intense daily-lived 'jihaad' to try to be a good Muslim, I must strongly disagree with brother Zaid Shakir. He writes " From a moral point of view, one could also argue against America being a Christian nation. The basis of such an argument would be a general lack of traditional Christian morality. That morality could be measured by two sets of variables: The Ten Commandments, and the fundamental moral virtues, namely prudence, justice, temperance, and fortitude."

The Ten Commandments are not an appropriate yardstick to measure any religion's relevance to a society if a sample of its practitioners' bahaviour is taken as characteristic of that society. If we did so, one would have to say there is no Islamic nation as such, either.

As regards the fundamental moral virtues, namely prudence, justice, temperance, and fortitude (plus also an aptitude for hard work, forgiveness, compassion) America is as much a Christian nation as it could be an Islamic, Hindu Buddhist, Jewish or Humanist nation by another name.

Wayne:

You don't seem to understand constitutional freedoms. What you're obviously thinking of as "immoral" has absolutely nothing immoral about it. Morality is in your head. You are limited to saying immoral for yourself. Don't be surprised to find some folks disagreeing with you, your version of morality.

People have a right under the constitution to throw God's law in the trash can. That's not immoral, it's constitutional. To you perhaps God's law is the determiner of morality. The problem is the absence of God.

Is it God's law? The astute will wait for God to tell us that it's Her law and not phoney balogny. The dummies, in my opinion, will take the word of people claiming to represent God. The ones that claim to represent God get their license from a PROVED HOAX, the holy bible.

We should be more careful when declaring an act and in particular a person immoral. Be sure you're right first for declaring people in particular to be immoral can only lead to trouble. There's enough trouble in the world already.

BOB
to quote myself at the very beginning

there are instances always of intolerant and angry people in power who for their emotionally lopsided reasons make incredibly unforgiving and unjust judgements- just as we see christianity not being fully or conscientiously acted- this is the state of human weaknesses-

and to quote myself at the end-

these are the best behaviors of course and you can CITE ANY ABUSES for anything, but the POINT IS AS AN IDEOLOGY there is little you can find wrong.

i would have to replicate basically the entire article and its right there above your own- no- there are many instances that really dont apply to muslim countries-

i posted this to discuss ideas not provoke pointless mudslinging

i put these statements at the beginning and end
so theyd be easy to see- so people dont just point fingers at actions- i was anticipating it and responded in advance- and still people see what they want.

if you want to talk about ideas im here for that
these are observations of american society- my society- not slurs on christians.

This is always a confusing subject. I suggest a distinction has to be drawn between the idea of "nation" (a collection of people, a demographic) and "government" or "state" (as defined by the U.S. Constitution). Technically the U.S. is a "christian nation" in that the majority of its citizens say they are "christian" when polled.

Of course the Constitution intentionally and clearly draws a distinction between any and all religions and the government, separates the two entities and, by law, prohibits the recognition of any religion above any other religion by the state.

So, while most Americans say they are Christian, The United States of America is not a christian state.

Additionally, the comments you make about "christian" America, apply identically to any "Islamic" nation you might mention -- the wanton murder of women for "sexual crimes", and"non-belivers" for not believing, and (take your pick) Sunni or Shiite, depending on whomever has control of the electric drill today.

Have a warm and peaceful holiday!

i think there are alot of things in islam that could benefit american society- it is strong in its enets to be followed, but gentle in the way they are enforced in society- there are instances always of intolerant and angry people in power who for their own emotionally lopsided reasons make incredibly unforgiving and unjust judgements- just as we see christianity not being fully or conscientiously enacted- this is the state ofhuman weaknesses-
there is so much knowledge of human nature inherent in islam (sociology was invented by muslims long before anyone considered even thinking about this subject)
for instance- people are constantly misunderstanding the treatment of women in islam.
islam first and foremost protects the weakest members of its own society- orphans-widows-the stranger in their midst-and women also who are physically weaker and uptil recently financially also-(women in america werent allowed to own land til the 20th century) while in islam women have had the proected right to own land, and use all oftheir earnings for their own purposes- theProphet(swa)s wife Khadijah was a wealthy businesswoman who traded from syria to points east and this is 1400 years ago- marriage is half of the religion of the muslim- in other wqords you are only practicing half of your marriage until you marry- then you are fully engaging- its the first step in loving another human unconditionally and then creating children where this love grows and expands- it takes the childish receiving of love form parents and develops into the mature love of giving- and how can you try to "love" your God if you dontlove any of God's creatures? it is our nature as hum,ans and builds the nuclear family which is the keystone of society at large-
disconnected people with no spouses have no emotional tie to their own society- and also nothing to lose so therefore no reason to truly and emphatically try to hold society together-
this unity creates a solidified sense of purpose- you can intellectually care about society- but in islam we feel like all children are ours and if we see something being done to a child or even a child doing something that will clearly hurt them, we can gently show them that their actions are cared about- that they matter- in the abuse of freedom there seems to be neglect also- these are issues that christianity with all of its beauty- it hasnt ripened to social consciousness- in fact Jesus(ata) told his followers they could marry if they had to, but it was best if they followed his example- if christains throughout history had actually followed his example they would have taken their sandals and begging bowls and gone out preaching- and not married- what would a society of preaching unemployed single people result in?
eventually- because they would not be procreating they would have died out- and who would be there to feed them if not the stable householders who are gluing everything together? but no- even with the message of christianity people still followed their own TRUE nature- getting married, having children building homes schools cities-- states countries---
in islam the husband is responsible for the maintenance of his wife- her housing-food-all the necessities of living-even down to the little extras like perfume or jewerly- she is to be dressed at the same social staus as her husband- so many tiny details have been accounted for and reasonable - if the woman is of another religion its her husbands responsibility to give her transportation to her place of worship- even to pay for her religious education if this is what she desires! and still any monies she has are her own- they cannot be touched by her husband- she doesnt pay for her or her childrens upkeep at all if she doesnt want to- socially women proclaim their faith and modest attire- as women have been in the workforce now for a little while- they are seeing the incredible stress of being halfman in the day- bringing home the money- (at 71cents for every dollar a man makes) and being a halfwoman at home because thats all they have energy for- and taking care of the cleaning cooking laundry domestic duties and care for the children and also trying to keep a husband happy! what mother is really happy leaving her babies with strangers to raise? but it is the seeking of so many distractions- excitement- validation from the outside world- joining the $9,000.00 in credit card debt that is the average for americans-
buying more and more and having less and less security and peaceof mind-some lucky ones find a balance and get enough outside help but they are not the norm today. in islamic societies women are also protected (or should be) sexually- overt sexual behavior is noticed and people have to control their own impulses- yes in christian society of america we have freedom- but that includes the freedom to make mistakes- some irrevocable ones( i know this well, ive been taking care odf people with aids for 15 years)

i know some people will take offense at the thought of their "freedoms" being regulated in any way- but who will regulate the behavior of the sexual predator? and young girls need to be cared about because although they think they are adults- they dont have adult experience to draw upon and end up in adult situations without the resources to deal with them- if the peer pressure is genteel and ladylike behavior- they learn to regulate themselves and also dont have the babies they cant possibly begin to afford (as they havent learned to be self- sufficent yet) or the diseases that can last a lifetime or even end a life- also they dont have that inner self esteem that comes with offering oneslef in a purity that creates such a strenght in the bond of marriage- such a sense of belonging and being cared for- people have created their own modes of living all over the world, but they always recreate he marriage system- and men everywhere have the instinct to protect their women-
these are the best behaviors of course you can cite any abuses for anything but the point is as an ideology there is little you can find wrong
with many of these ideas. i could surely go on but ive noticed this is a really long post thanks for the patience hope i didnt bore anyone
peace

Shabba -

You're deluding yourself and demonstrating a complete failure to understand atheism. I'm an atheist. Trust me on this, I really, really do not think, deep down in my heart, that any god exists. Really.

You appear to believe that morality is discerned only by reference to "a bible or a koran or whatever book for some sort of guidance." You wonder how one can know right from wrong without recourse to "whatever book." Is that really your view, that taking some book's - any book's - word on what is right and wrong is superior to figuring it out for yourself? That scares me!

Look at any of those books, Shabba, and see if you don't find instances of violence, rape, theft, and various other things that you evidently recognize as being wrong. How do you manage to recognize those things as wrong, when the books you cite promote them? Is slavery wrong, Shabba? Don't both the Bible and the Koran contain passages approving of slavery? Either you also support slavery, or else you're ignoring those passages. How do you know which passages are to be ignored and which should be followed? It can't be by reference to the book itself - that's circular. Slavery is actually an excellent example; in the U.S., for years leading up the the Civil War, slavery proponents debated abolitionists on the moral question involved - and both sides cited the Bible in support of their respective positions!

You are blindly accepting, and repeating, a fallacy concerning atheists, which portrays us as necessarily immoral beings for lack of a "book" to adhere to. It's not true, Shabba. Ask yourself this: If you truly derive your morality from the Bible (just to choose one, as you never say which book you follow), why do you not advocate slavery, stoning adulterers and disobedient children to death, handing your own daughters over to be gang-raped, and stealing other people's land - or do you?

The truth is that your own conscience tells you what's right and what's wrong, and then you embrace the biblical (or koranic, or "whatever book") passages that agree with your conscience and ignore the rest. We atheists also consult our consciences, but we skip the second step. We don't need literature from a bronze-age, desert-nomad culture to confirm the dictates of our consciences for us.

Maybe you do need to consult a book to confirm your conscience, and I honestly have no problem with that. But to accuse the rest of us of being incapable of thinking or behaving morally, just because we skip that second step, is defamatory and ignorant - and I have a big problem with that. Atheists have consciences, too. Please make a note of it, and please stop repeating the fallacy; we're too widely misunderstood and unfairly misrepresented already.

Paul

As an Indonesian, I am so much embarrassed by the bigotry shown by Mr. Arif Nurwahyu. He is just like many bigots in Indonesia, I sadly have to admit this fact.

As a christian in Indonesia, I really want to know what Mr. Nurwahyu will say on incidents of 22 (twenty two) chrurches were bombed on Christmas eve 2000 plus hundred others being closed down forcely simply because of bigotry.

But this doesn't lead me to think that Islam is not good nor are moslems. I have a lot of muslim friends in Indonesia and they are genuinely nice.

It's just unfortunate that there are also too many Indonesian muslim who Mr. Arif Nurwahyu proudly emulates.

To Mr. Nurwahyu "Anda benar-benar memalukan!"

Shabba: God exists because the unanwered question will always be there. Humans ( and other beings) will answer questions set by a previous intelligence, and ask themselves questions they cannot answer. As humans evolve, they will answer these questions and ask themselves questions they cannot answer. There will always be an unanswred question. The yet unanswered question is God and therefore exists.

The problem is that religion is completely unnecessary for the pursuit of God. It is an unncessary middleman, and like all middlemen creates problems and divisions. God the all supreme does not need prophets or religions as interlocutors. Seek and you shall find your God.

You cannot be religious and follow God at the same time. Choose.

to all u atheists, y'all r funny as hell .. well hell aint funny but anyway, y'all know deep down inside ur hearts, God exists. ur problem is that ur too arrogant and prideful to see it, its clouding ur judgement. all morals come from religion, from God, whether or not the religion is correct or not, thats up to a person to decide after he studies religion.

how will any atheist know what is morally right or wrong ? if u didnt have a bible or a koran or whatever book for some sort of guidance .. how would u know the difference between right and wrong ?? the reason i say this is bcuz u could have a child molesting fool, or a child pornography junkie tell u that he thinks he's doing the 'right' thing .. according to him he hasn't had any guidance, he doesnt know the difference between right and wrong .. he thinks he's doing right. So in an atheist world, there should be no such thing as crime, adultery, stealing etc. -- these things cannot be labeled as bad .. it is up to the person who is doing it to judge if he's doing bad or not .. if there was no such thing as God or religion how in the world would u even know stealing, and raping a little girl are bad ?

anyway .. its in u .. u know God exists .. im not saying to join Islam or Christianity .. or whatever ... all im saying is that, u have to get off ur high horse and admit that God exists.

"To revive the deeper moral dimensions of Christian teachings"---IS THE NEED!!

And as this can't be communicated in the usual manner of physical instruction; but has been acquired through personal meditation--no matter what the religious affiliation; it seems vital religious establishments stop seeking power; and instead reach academic agreement on the relativity of our capacity to love to the existence and nature of God.

The American founders recognized, and defended the only freedom possible,--or necessary! It may also be our only equal endowment! They were free from the oppressive leadership mentality of their era,-- and gave us the same opportunity to find personal freedom. 'Because God hath created man with a free mind' --was their reason. Credence was in God; not the opinions of mankind; not a religious establishment; but in Christian principles; in a Golden Rule of all religions; in a natural social conscience.

Do we really want to return to human guidance? To a master-slave affair?

I think that a person who reveres an invisible spirit has the elements of insanity. To take arms aggainst someone who believes otherwise is totally insane. When things preedicted tto shortly come to passs haven't happened in 2000 years why cling to a myth. You believe what you believe necause it is what you were taught and for no other reason. There is no absolute truth and you all have different beliefs, thrrefor you must all be wrong.
Agnostic

Anonymous (Sir/Madam),
I am quite agree with you but this point that Islam forces people; I don believe in all of these (organized religions) but I studied both Koran and Bible (old and new). In koran you will find: "There is no force in Islam to accept or not" this is in the second "Sura" called "Baghare", somewhere in middle because it is quite long one. you can refer. Sincerely

The U.S may not be a Christian nation, but there is nothing here that Islam can fix. Islam itself is broken and not true. To say muslims follow Jesus' teachings is laughable. This nation is full of humans who are not perfect, Christianity is not pushed by threats of death, it is a choice unlike Islam. This country was founded on the ability of individuals to choose, to make a choice, God granted us choice, he wants us to choose Him from our heart, not by the sword. Although this nation is not perfect it is better than any nation that does not tolerate diversity( see all muslim countries), if you find the nation or its' people offensive then go back to your wonderful land and make it better, if you like it here, adhere to your beliefs and learn to be tolerant.

Wayne:

Pay attention. Christianity is NOT voilntary. The evil demon creeps and crawls it's way into everyone's life just like in the Islamic church states. Your president was elected on the grouds he would shove Christian principles down everyone's throats, establish the kingdom of God here and now.

Just one more thing. God is nowhere to be found so in God's absence, by default the ministry, God's representatives, vicars - attorneys in fact with the power to sign God's name, it is them that will rule. They will decide a woman's right to choose, that homosexuals are subhuman and need to be eliminated by force, just to mention a couple along with their contention that the constitituin is "just a guideline" and those in power may and MUST dictate Christian principles.

Interpretation 1501, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul tells us where the ministry is coming from. Can you rebut it?

Richard Dawkins was on Stephen Colbert the other night talking about the New Atheism. There's also a cover article on the New Atheism for Wired this November. With all the religious fascists in the US and around the world maybe it's right to try and establish a religion of reason. If we could end ignorance and superstition and establish a world base on the universal declaration of human rights; that is a worthwhile goal.

I find these religious statements in the Post very interesting, even though I am very ignorant about religion and religious thought in general. However, I take exception when Shakir-san limits American breaches of the 10 commandments to three. By my count at least 6 more need to be added to those he cites as regularly compromised by Americans. The two having to do with coveting are definitely among those omitted, and all the commandments admoni$hing di$respect of God whether through fal$e wor$hip of another god or god$$$ or simpler forms of disrespect. By my count, that new total is 9 (I cannot believe we are not thieves as well). So, since we claim to be a Christian nation that must mean that Christians are among the largest violators of the 10 commandments. In the end, therefore, there is far too much working against the good old US of A resembling the example of Christ.

A final word of advice to Schuyler DuQuesne - stop eating the Sams Club toilet paper you use so liberally - the matter it carries taints the words you spew. Besides, it is not a healthy practice to consume your own refuse. Ciao stinky!

nice post zaid. religion is not causal in its relationship with morality (in general) -- if anything religous belief causes more violent and selfish actions than (purely) altruistic ones.

Goodness, if you read the posts above, you would think that the US was the cesspool of the planet!
Reading many of the other comment threads, I have seen that pretty much everywhere.

But in what Muslim nation would disparaging comments against Islam be accepted? Why is the number one cause of death for Muslims other Muslims? Why are the terrorists of 9/11 venerated by Muslims when they spent the night before their cowardly attacks looking at naked women, drinking alcholic beverages?

As to why a so-called Christian nations has had so many immoral and unethical citizens, leaders and politicians, it is that Christians and Americans are human. Christianity is voluntary, as is the behaviors that are advocated by Christianity. We, as fallen and broken humans, will never be perfect. Far too many seem to rejoice in that, Christian and everyone else too.

Christy Hoover, while I do not share your faith, I certainly can share this planet with as wise a person as yourself!

a salaau alaikum-The mosaic laws werent in place before the time of Jesus(ata) but were in place when he was alive- there is no reason to imagine that Jesus(ata) ate pork at all- won't he come back and kill the pigs and doesnt that rather support his disdain of pork?
the covering of the head for women is also in the new testament- although admittedly the questionable author of that verse is paul.(women cover your heads while you pray)
the bible does not say antwhere that new light was shed and the mosaic restrictions no longer applied.
there certainly is a breakdown of what are considered christian morals- but this is a phenomenon all over the world,and the us has contributed largely to it.
Jeisis(ata) lived as an obedient jew respectful of his own traditions- he did not come to destroy the law but uphold it.

until a century ago- the us was proclaiming to be a cohesive christian unit- but weve still exported all manner of corruption- greed-corporate
mentality- sexual freedom-alcoholism-drug addiction- i would say that Jesus(ata would barely recognize it as a christian entity if he were here now, but id also say islam as it was intended would be hard to recognize in some places also.
i dont think moses would be working on a kibbutz in israel- and i always thought it was interesting that krishna was blue- neatly sidestepping the caste-color issue.

its up to muslims to have better manners and through their behavior show the gentle superiority of islam as a way of life-

peace

The constitution can be ignored. And it is being ignored too! If the tax laws do not violate the first amendment then it can't be violated.

The thrust is to make America an "official" Christian nation. A substantial majority giving lip service to "being Christian" gives those who would make Christianity official encouragement. They know the constitutioin can be ammended.

Muslim Americans should be more alarmed than atheists. Not only can the first amendment be striken and replaced with an official Christian religion the tax laws can be upgraded to include tithing. That alarms atheists. Your faith has a lot of common alarm with atheists.

Big name Christian minister was heard to say that tithing should be the law on the Geraldo program MSNBC. I can only guess that he wasn't collecting enough money on the "gift to God" basis. NewsWeek and WT should be able to get MSNBC to find that enlightening tidbit in their archives.

Perhaps Muslim Americans should become more overt in the protection of the thing that protects religious freedom, the constitution. The next time a jihad warrior shows up intending to destroy America and in turn the constitution maybe you should turn him in,, if you're out of amo. Can't help but notice that Muslims don't mind shooting other Muslims. Same thing with Christians.

Having ready access to plenty of toilet paper, I have no need of a bible. But in case I run out of toilet paper, I keep a copy of the Qur'an close at hand.

"He who quoteth scripture endlessly hath neither job nor hobby."
II Mumbleonians 4:19

"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." - Buddha

"Life and love are life and love, a bunch of violets is a bunch of violets, and to drag in the idea of point is to ruin everything. Live and let live, love and let love, flower and fade, and follow the natural curve which flows on, pointless." - D. H. Lawrence

"And the end of all our exploring,
Will be to arrive where we started,
And know the place for the first time."
- T. S. Elliot

"Ten thousand flowers in spring
the moon in autumn,
a cool breeze in summer,
snow in winter.
If your mind isn’t clouded by unnecessary things,
this is the best season of your life."
- Wun-Men

Asalaamu'alaykum brother Arif and Imam Zaid.

Br. Arif: With all due respect, I think you may have misunderstood the point Imam Zaid is making here in that he didn't seem to speak in a judgemental way whereas you are.

Also, as a Muslim convert myself who was raised as a Christian, I felt compelled to shed some light on some things you said.

When understanding Christianity, one needs to understand that the Bible is in many ways different than the Qur'an. The Old Testament has its place and the New Testament has its place. It is difficult to read a random passage in the Bible and understand it without knowing context. In my understanding, the Bible works much more like a historical narrative or a novel in the way that it reads.

So, the alcohol, pork and covered hair comments from the Old Testament are out of context, in all fairness. These were Mosaic Laws imposed upon the Jewish people before the time of Prophet Isa (Jesus) and there are reasons which they were imposed (which I won't go into here). In the time of Jesus, new light was shed on these restrictions (and the reasons for them) and *Christians* (followers of Jesus) were no longer under these rules.

You mention laws/punishments (adultery/stoning) in the Bible which are not followed in America. But you cannot single out America in this aspect, nor Christianity. I'm quite sure Indonesia isn't currently stoning people for adultery, correct? Though Indonesia is a Muslim country and this *is* the punishment prescribed in the Qur'an for the offense. Nor are any of our 'Muslim' nations 100% following Shari'a or fiqh as defined in the Qur'an, as far as I can tell.

Religious description of a country is generally based on the demographic, this is why America might be called a Christian nation. As a Muslim, I do not feel marginalized by this, it is just a fact that currently there are more Christians than non-Christians in the U.S.

It gets a bit tricky when we start pointing out all the ways a country and people are not 'properly' following their religion. Our Muslim nations have just as many moral problems b/c every nation is just a collection of people, and as humans we are inherently weak and flawed. That doesn't mean one should accept it, but one would be foolish not to expect it.

Assalamu'alaykum, Bravo Imam Zaid. America is not a Christian Nation Today. They (American Christians) proclaim to be followers of Jesus Christ,unfortunately, they follow the teaching of Paul. Look at these for example:

1. In Book of Leviticus, it is said that pork (flesh of swine) is forbidden --> Many of "followers of Christ" consume pork in America.
2. In the Old Testament, it also said that intoxicant (liqouir/hard drink) is forbidden --> Americans are almost drunk people.
3. Still in Old Testament, it also said Those who committed to adultery should be stoning death --> What is the official punishment for rape& adultery in America? How many free sex/illegal sexual intercouse in America?
4. Old Testament & New Testament--> Women should cover their hair (veil) --> Why American women today wear swimsuit,bikini,miniskirt or even nude in "Playboy" or "Penthouse"?
5. Did'n Jesus Christ said that He would not change anything eventhough a little bit the teaching in the Old Testament?
6. Jesus Christ said that there will be a Comforter (Paraclete) that is Prophet Muhammad Peace be Upon Him. Why the "followers of Christ" accuse Prophet Muhammad PBUH?

If Christians mean ones who follow the teaching of Christ, I would like to say Muslims are the real follower of Prophet Eesa (Jesus) peace be upon him.

Arif Nurwahyu - Jakarta INDONESIA