All Comments (113)

Daniel in the Lion's Den

Everything you said is true & irrelevant to humanism, which in my first paragraph I designated as the (secular-HUMANIST) problem.

Dear Dr Elliott

One of my pet peeves is the insistence of people in calling "secularism" a philosophy or a religion. If you are so smart, it seems like you would know better.

Secularism is whatever is not religious. But it is not a philosophy. It has more to do with social custom, and cultural norms. Tell, me what is the philosophy of "secularism" and not what you read into it, or what you infer about secularists based on their behavior, but tell me, what it is the philosophy of "secularism?"

Can a person major in "secularism" in college? Or is the most anyone can say about it, just a terse dictionary definition?

And how is "secularism" a religion? Are there ceremonies for initiation? Are there any rites at birth, death, and weddings? do they have special places and buildings of worship? do they have secular prayers, and moments of silence? do they read from very old text, or even from modern text? to substantiate their secular belief? So they have a business organization that maintains all of their worldly affairs, and raised money for self-maintenance and for all kinds of "secular" projects?

I do not think so.

"Secularism" is a socio-economic trend, that seems to accompany the progress of history as cultures go from more primitive to more complex, at least so far. YOu can name it, identify it, control it, or do anything about it. But, I think it is rude, to forever and always be labelling people as secularists, in a negative way, when they are just behaving and reacting to the world in which they were born.

Secularism is an attribute of culture, a quality of person's life, not a philosophy, not a religion; it seems like someone as smart as you would understand that.

The difference between not-paradise and paradise, is like the difference between "god in the machine", and "god in the human machine".

The story in Genesis of Adam and Eve is allegorical.

Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Apples had nothing to do with it, and there were no actual trees. They presumed to know or decide what is good and what is evil.

The tree of life (the Son of God) is wisdom, i.e. absolute obedience to God without question. "The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, but fools despise knowledge and instruction."

The serpent is symbolic of man's nature, the will of the flesh, if you will. "For we find in our members a war against the Spirit..."

Eve's primal sin was that she doubted God. Doubt is the antithesis of faith. "In the day that you eat thereof, thou shalt surely die." She reasoned to the contrary, most likely because she had never seen death.

The first death was that of perfect innocence, because they now had the knowledge of evil.

Equally culpable, but typically male, Adam blamed their problems on Eve and God. "The woman that you gave me told me to eat..."

This story of the loss of innocence and the fall from grace due to our own errors or poor judgement has been played out again and again in great literature, and in our lives.

Doctor, you failed to mention proctology.

By your own declaration, you believe in the Trinity, a false doctrine. One often hears church pastors pray "...in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

What is the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost? (It's one name.)

Dude, one of your strings is wound too tight, and you aren't wrapped too tight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeZB2EsPqGE&feature=related

See:

A*N*O*N*Y*M*O*U*S on Heels of Tom Cruise & His TOP-GUNS!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eiUqewgQqBI&feature=related

--
See:
--

TOM CRUISE & His TOP-GUNS Chasing A*N*O*N*Y*M*O*U*S on the EHERNET!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Hh7tF3PkUio&feature=related

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STOP! In the Name Of HILLARY CLINTON! STOP In The Name of THE-LAW! STOP WE Say Stop!

Better a CLINTON than a McCAIN!
Better a CLINTON than a McCAIN!
Better a CLINTON than a McCAIN!
Better a CLINTON than a McCAIN!
Better a CLINTON than a McCAIN!
Better a CLINTON than a McCAIN!
Better a CLINTON than a McCAIN!
Better a CLINTON than a McCAIN!
Better a CLINTON than a McCAIN!
Better a CLINTON than a McCAIN! Thank You HUMATE>

I like this column and all past columns. Not perfect, but they have spirit.

Mr Mark

AND
btw

what are you doing pulling out Ulysses when you want something difficult!!!!

What's wrong with good ole American Henry James?????

Mr Mark, with his usual frighteningly penetrating analysis, notes to the good Dr:
"A few months ago, you suggested that those of us who didn't "get you" re-read your columns over and over again. Might I suggest that you save us all the trouble by employing a competent editorial assistant who can read your columns pre-posting? Such an assistant may well be able to suggest changes that would add clarity to your columns."

Mark
a couple of months ago I vowed to read Dr Elliott's columns as many times as he has gotten Ph.Ds of various stripes. Sixteen, I think is the number.

One MIGHT think a person with sixteen PhDs could write an understandable paragraph. On the other hand, being here near Harvard and seeing more PhDs than you can shake a Graduation Gown at, I believe that the opposite correlation pertains, and the Good Dr is a perfect example

The greater the number of PHds
the less comprehensible the prose.

I UNDERSTAND what the Good Dr is trying to say, as I know you do. I just continue to marvel at his obscurantism. (sic_)

terra - I beg to differ - mankind is immortal, and so are you if you belong to mankind, i.e. if you are on the tree of life which is _all_ mankind. The self is the human form which is also God's form, and everyone has that. But while people still have outward selves ("in God's image"), their inner selves ("being") have been replaced by "being right" and someone else being wrong. Some people are right, some people are wrong, and as long as there is a single person that you think is wrong (i.e. an alien), then you are not part of mankind, but of some subset of mankind.
When I say "God" I don't mean some demiurge, but to me God, Self and "the human form" are interchangeable and equivalent notions. The demiurge notion of god appears at the same time you turn a human into an alien.

Dw,
Well seems the bible says what the trees are...one the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil...the Other the Tree of Immortality.

Having eaten of the apple means to have self knowledge; To be self aware and to have gone from animal and instinct, to man and useing awareness and thought.

Personally, I would rather have the knowledge to create my own garden, then wait for some egotistical god to do it for me.

In the myth God says what the trees are...so you needn't rewrite the story.

terra

Dear Rev Elliot -

Once again, you have written a difficult-to-decipher column, and once again, you have been forced to post additional messages in an attempt to decipher your column for the rest of us.

Perhaps "no one commented on the column's basic affirmation" because for the life of us, we couldn't figure out what that basic affirmation was.

A few months ago, you suggested that those of us who didn't "get you" re-read your columns over and over again. Might I suggest that you save us all the trouble by employing a competent editorial assistant who can read your columns pre-posting? Such an assistant may well be able to suggest changes that would add clarity to your columns.

Or, you can keep blaming the rest of us for not having the intellect to "get" your musings.

If I'm in the mood to read something difficult, I'll pull down my copy of Ulysses.

Joyce, you ain't.

- in terms of rights and wrongs.

..and things go to hell when God is talked about. :)

DW: why complicate it? Paradise isn't heaven, so, whatever was there is here now. Tree of life - mankind (family tree, in a sense). Tree of knowledge - what people know.

Terra,

The analogy of the two trees is much deeper than the few scriptures it was alloted...and, IMO, a good analogy even to this day in how it not only set in play the way mankind has gone, but also applies to us today in many ways. (My opinion, of course)

The tree of knowledge (of good and evil) and the tree of life:

The way I read it, one can deduce that both trees symbolized knowledge. The former representing carnal knowledge (carnal in the sense of 'knowledge', 'habits', 'tendencies'etc that have created problems for mankind) vs. knowledge that does benefit every man, woman and child as a whole. I beleive we can see these battles today in our time. And the subsequent outcome of partaking of that tree seems to also symbolize the ongoing differences of what is right and wrong in this world. Does that mean the question of right and wrong in every matter? No, I dont think so...only those things and matters that are common to every individuals well-being, mentally and physically.

The difference in the tree of life, I feel, is that there is knowledge also, and the knowledge within it will fulfill the human experience to a much higher degree, as well as how it also symbolizes, according to scripture, our potential to become part of the family of God.

Just some additional thoughts on the subject. I see much more to the subject that it would take a looooonnng manuscript to comment...but will leave it as is. :-)

Regards

GaryD's behavior makes sense when you think about how threatened animals behave.

He'll be along shortly to puff himself up again.

I have a problem with GaryD. In almost every post, he has to get in a dig at someone. But, he is also telling us what a conciliatory fellow he is. Of course I know that there is alot more to a person than what they write here, but if all I had to go on were these postings, I would think he is not a very nice person.

He does not present his opinions and beliefs; he lets us all know, sometimes by name, that we are all dumber than he is, and he knows more than we do, and he is trying to help us by letting us in on all the things he knows.

This style of arguing fot he cause of Christ and Chritianity, will never, in a million years, win any converts.

Well, as selection bias and superstition are valid elements of argument for you, I'll answer your silly binary assertion with a question:

If the universe is binary, why do things always happen in threes?

Because what's left of the apple after it has been eaten has no business sitting on an idea-tree - it's much better off as fertilizer.

This ain't to say that I believe in going to paradise, but rather in kicking the **** out of the angels with flaming swords - been there done that (and it's all in the mind, off course).

..and the Self is God within and without (as long as it's sitting on the tree of knowledge - a wordless idea in one's head)

Apple is the Self-idea. Apple in mouth is the word for Self, i.e. ego (= "I"). Paradise is what is not the ego-world and the ego-idea.

You know, Terra, that was something I could never get my brain around either about the Genesis story.

They would just have been sloths sitting around the garden.. and yet someone told me that one of the most deadly sins in Christian theology was sloth.

I will be the first to admit I don't know a thing about Christianity, having come from a similar background to our Starhawk's, but nobody was able to answer that question, among many others for me.

Go figure.

DW,
I have read the book...I think that when a person is a seeker, what they seek within first is what they know, what is around them. Most Pagans come from a Christian background...I know with me, it didn't take.

As far as Adam and Eve and the Garden? I am so gratful that Eve ate the fruit of knowledge. For where would we be without knowledge.

Still sitting in the garden like a couple lazy sloths...I like striving, failing, learning and succeeding. I like dareing and willing and reaching and stretching. I like that Mother Eve ate that apple...I like sex and sorrow and joy and life.

Gary, it's always interesting that when a Christain tells a non Christian that the reason they aren't Christian is they do not understand the bible...because they do not have the Holy Spirit.
ummm um.
terra

Arminius,

I promise if I turn you into a newt I will make sure you get your dram of Guiness. lol.

Oh you have not seen me riled...lol.
Last year our parish council decided to pass a law against something they have never had a problem with...only because it made a point against those of us who are Wiccan. They passed a "soothsayer" law. In other words it is against the law for us to use any kind of divination, which is a pratice of our faith. Oh they are being suied in Federal court by a Wiccan Priest, and a bunch of us went to the open meeting tonight, but they had already decided. They would rather be suid...and the parish pay.

Even the parish president said that the statement we gave was complete and agreed with what the State's attourney said...they would not change their mind. The Prish president said..."I love the Lord, I am Christian and I will not change my mind." We shall see.

They claim fighting fraud...but not one person has ever been arrested for any divination fraud in this parish, ever. It's not fraud they are fighting...there are already laws against fraud. It's Wicca they are fighting. But see I have a 501 c incorporated church, and our practices are protected, even those that others do not like.

So, any way I am a little angry right now...but I promise Arminius, if I could turn any one into anything, it would be those sanctimonious dufi council members, into truffle seeking pigs (with no Guiness).

terra

If you read the Bible without the benefit of the Holy Spirit while looking for something to carp about you won't understand it and certainly won't be able to see the reality you will however find exactly what you set out looking for , something to carp about.

Here's Willis Elliott once again playing his idiotic one-note kazoo. Over and over again. Will he ever see that his "American mind" is all IN HIS MIND? It's an absurd construct developed as a way of obfuscating the incompatibility of reason and "revealed" faith. This fact must be sinking in, because now he's defensively building an entire metaphysics out of it. Imangine that! And he seems upset that people aren't basking in it's ontological glory!

>>Read the old testament (and quite a bit of the new one!) and conclude that that horrible, primitive entity called god in this book is the first candidate to go to hell, for every imaginable crime, hatred, jealousy, murder, genocide, stupidity, greed, vengeance etc.. You name it, he has it.

Actually, the horrible, primitive entity in the OT (whether you are a beliver or not) was the family of man. Mankind, if you REALLY read the accounts took life into their own hands and made their own rules...and consequently suffered, and still suffer, the consequences of their own 'wisdom'. God was angry at times? You bet. Consider the scenario of many fine parents. The ones that do their children a favor when the child gets in deep trouble time after time after time arent going to play pansy-a** with them. Same with God in the OT. Man wanted to do it their way. God still had a purpose..but ok, let them do it their way. Still has his guidelines. And remember (again whether youre a believer or not) God has the ability to give life back to those who have lost life..it whatever way. If you read the end of the book...all who have lived will have a chance to be a WINNER (emphasis mine)..

Many just dont read the book enough to understand those who believe.

>>I am so happy I got over this darkness early in my life.

Truly sorry you feel that way, my friend. As stated above, If one really studies scripture..there is a lot more potential to mans destiny that the erroneously belived heaven or hell...part of the religious deception of Rev 12:9 that has confused the whole world with regard to the actual destiny to be offered to all mankind...those who choose to partake.

Unfortunately, IMHO, the darkness comes from mans reign over man...for they are the ones who really offer us a darkness...such as a potential nuclear winter...among other things

Regards

Garyd:

Read the old testament (and quite a bit of the new one!) and conclude that that horrible, primitive entity called god in this book is the first candidate to go to hell, for every imaginable crime, hatred, jealousy, murder, genocide, stupidity, greed, vengeance etc.. You name it, he has it.

I am so happy I got over this darkness early in my life.

Unbelievable that even today people who can read and write resort to "heaven and hell", against every possible experience they can easily make in every minute of their lives, and stick to the archaic most primitive Manichean concept ever created.

Forgot to mention one point on which we are in total agreement, Shaman Elliot. You opened with:

"The reason secular ideas are “getting shorter shrift” in this year’s presidential campaign is that the people are scared and angry that secularism has taken over so much in American life"

I think you are exactly right, though it certainly isn't a brand-new phenomena. Islam and non-belief are the only categories of "faith" that are growing as a percentage of worldwide population. Islam is growing simply because of its higher birth rate; only non-belief is gaining enough "converts" to expand. Much of the bitterness and anger we see from religionists (such as our very own GaryD) is an reaction (indirectly) to that trend and its many consequences.

Hilarious thread. Dr. Willie, I think your post has been treated with the light-hearted contempt it deserved. Social conciousness is not 'faith's string on the lyre' (as you claim), because social behavior is not and never has been the sole province of the faithful. Our apelike ancestors were grooming each other and choosing leaders eons before the first humans credited ravenous celestial wolves for the movements of the sun.

Your binary model for reason/faith is clearly wrong, because it does an exceptionally bad job at explaining people's actual behavior, just as it did when Gould called it NOMA. Faith continues to inform our understanding of the natural world despite the fact that it is clearly a horrible tool for the job. And when you say, "Being monolingual, religious and secularist fundamentalists need not apply", you are simply excluding everyone who doesn't fit your model. With such methodology, no wonder you cherish your own ideas so!

GARYD-

Obviously, whether you are right or wrong isn't up to me. I don't think I was claiming it was.

I can assure you that I don't secretly harbor the belief that you are correct, and simply can't face the horror of it (and I am a definitive expert on what I believe).

I just find it particularly strange when people gravitate to a belief system where they describe their God as a colossal jerk. Why create a universe and fill it up with pathetic losers, just so you can spare a few souls from eternal damnation for no reason other than your own amusement. Where is the dignity in this?

Those running for President need is to come to grips with the flaws in the foundations of religions i.e.

(for those unfamiliar with said flaws)

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably an embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

And you ought to be ashamed of your self.

Anonymous: asked, "What's a Lyre?"

Dr Elliott said, "....In early-ancient Greece, [t]he two-string lyre was more a[for] story-telling than a musical instrument."

So there you have it, "story telling" as in LIAR. It has two strings because there's two sides to every LYE.

Dr Elliott goes on to explain one of the two sides of the LIE making sure to be correct by pointing out the BINARY nature of LYING. The Greeks plunked either one string or the other depending on which side of the LIE was being told at the moment. That way an element of truth was added.

Conclusion: There's a little truth to every LIE even if it's limited to being honest about the structure of the LIES told or just plunking a LYRE's strings.

Mr. Elliot I firmly agree. That is what I tried to point out to them. Most don't get it largely for the same reason they don't get the Bible. It isn't that it is hard to understand but rather that it is difficult to accept. We human beings wish to think far better of ourselves than we ought. Case in point being the next individual I will address.

TD, my boy, the fact that you won't admit it even to yourself changes nothing. Further it isn't God's vengeance that sends people to hell but his justice.
Hell is a place of absolute justice, heaven of complete and total mercy. One goes to hell because one wasn't saved from one's mistakes. One goes to heaven because God chose to rescue one from the fate one richly deserved.

Oh and to whom it may concern those being rescued in Darfur are the remnant of the Coptic church that has existed there for nearly two millenia now. In other words they are Christians. Darfur is the Hell it is in most regards because it is both a religious war and a race war. The more I see about this mess the more firmly convinced I become that what the average American and not a few others knows about Africa wouldn't fill a thimble.

Reality is not binary.

For that matter, neither is sex. (Or sexuality, to which I think he was referring in a veiled heterosexist metaphor)

But I thought I'd point out that intersex people and conditions are surprisingly-common, and that's *with* a binary way of looking at such things. Societies just tend to bury or ignore the inconvenient variations and claim they're the 'way the world is.'

In fact, the way the world is has nothing to do with binary thinking, ...that's just how some filter a real diversity of things through their own sorting.

False analogy, anyway. 'Under God' was added to the Pledge of Allegiance during the Red Scare when certain right-wingers wanted to divide 'One Nation Indivisible' over religion.

In other words, it's pointless to discuss something that just isn't there, as far as some of the participants of the dialog are concerned, because then you'll be talking about yourself - the place where they think that thing is, and that wouldn't really be the thing, nor the place.
And it's better to be silent than to talk about things that can't be talked about (Wittgenstein)... unless some way is found to talk about them.
Heh..:) I think I've actually said more than what is useful

Sry, TD450, I don't believe in "believing", I believe in "seeing is knowing"; I have never believed in anything in my life, by the way of blind faith. Hence, all I can do is reveal things (and I'm doing it, within the larger context of the topic, and the totality of my comments).

BRIAN-
Statements like that may be meaningful to people of faith, but in this context, they tell non-believers that you don't want to have a dialog with them. It would be nice to exchange some ideas here.

point is - God is not just the inner and the outer light. God is also the darkness of the night sky, and the depths of the ocean.

... Tao FTW :)
http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~bobba/tao.jpg

Romancing the Pope

We are at the point of prophetic history where the final powers are courting each other. The American politicians currently do this for ideology or for political survival. The Catholic church does this for world domination.

At least since 1989, this is the known involvement of the government with Catholic goals.

1989 - Joined forces under Ronald Reagan and Pope Paul II to end communism.

2001 - Religious education assistance (School Voucher Bill) which was stated in the language of Catholic canon law on education.

2001 - Religious charity assistance (Faith-Based Initiative). George W. Bush publicly seeks the approval and advice of the Catholic Bishops. In the months after his inauguration he did the following:
-Proposed the two religious laws on the day of his inauguration.
-That Friday he had dinner at the home of the Archbishop Theodore McCarrick.
-Met twice with the pope (once while campaigning for president).

March 1, 2001 - spoke at the opening of the John Paul II Cultural Center
-Met with Miami Archbishop John Favalora
-Met with Donald W. Wuerl, Roman Catholic Bishop of Pittsburgh
-Met with Archbishop Justin Rigali of St. Louis
-Met with Anthony Cardinal Bevilacqua Archbishop of Philadelphia

July 2001 - Awards the congressional medal of honor (the highest civilian honor bestowed by Congress) to the late Cardinal Cardinal O'Connor.
-Met with 120 Catholic bishops where he was overheard telling the bishops in an open microphone that not even the republicans want the school voucher bill.

January 2001 - meeting with Archbishop Egan and thirty other Catholic leaders to discuss the new faith based initiative.
-Appointed John J. DiIulio, a Catholic as head of the new office of Faith-Based Initiatives
-He has weekly conferences between his administration and Roman Catholic advisers. He reportedly tries to meet with any Catholic leaders he can when he visits other cities.

Protestants, are you sleeping! Read Revelation 13.

Speaking of the growing power of the church in the top layers of government, "The Central Intelligence Agency", page 271 Jim Marrs:

"Politically, she looms ever larger in the White House, in the Senate and in the Congress. She is a force in the Pentagon, a secret agent in the FBI and the most subtly intangible prime mover of the S.S. wheel within a wheel."

Who's running this country, the Pope? Who's Bush taking orders from, we see who he's reporting to and who he seeks advice from.

If I were a betting person, I would say that we will soon have talks about making Sunday a national day of rest...Keep Watching...

Also...In the final days of President Clinton's frustrated attempt to make a peace agreement in the Middle East, they called on Pope John Paul II to intervene. The Pope told Secretary of State Madeleine Albright that he would - on condition that he becomes the ruler of Jerusalem with the United Nations forces as the army.

Will this be the only option for President Bush and any subsequent leader?

ANONYMOUS-
There is a huge difference between finding instances of horror in the human condition, and seeing humanity as fundamentally horrible. It is just as easy to come up with stories of dignity and kindness.

WILLIS E. ELLIOTT-
I never asked what the faithful are missing in public school. I asked how speaking to the transcendental can inform a political issue. Bringing up this idea of the need to teach "binary" thinking in schools is just a way to repeat your argument.

When these kids leave school, how do they go out into the world and use this second channel of thought to improve their lives? How does it connect back to politics and the choices we make in the real world? I assert that it is a cop-out. We can take a position on an issue without the need to explain it in language which holds up to anyone who doesn't share the same scope of faith.

At its best, faith gives large number of people an obtuse but strangely comfortable rationale to behave well when they are too weak to come up with one on their own. It just fills an uncomfortable vacuum. I think we can do better.

ANONYMOUS-
There is a huge difference between finding instances of horror in the human condition, and seeing humanity as fundamentally horrible. It is just as easy to come up with stories of dignity and kindness.

WILLIS E. ELLIOTT-
I never asked what the faithful are missing in public school. I asked how speaking to the transcendental can inform a political issue. Bringing up this idea of the need to teach "binary" thinking in schools is just a way to repeat your argument.

When these kids leave school, how do they go out into the world and use this second channel of thought to improve their lives? How does it connect back to politics and the choices we make in the real world? I assert that it is a cop-out. We can take a position on an issue without the need to explain it in language which holds up to anyone who doesn't share the same scope of faith.

At its best, faith gives large number of people an obtuse but strangely comfortable rationale to behave well when they are too weak to come up with one on their own. It just fills an uncomfortable vacuum. I think we can do better.

Dr Elliott's Distorting Oversimplification on Intelligence

In response to my point that
the more intelligent a person is
the less like she is to believe in God

Dr Elliott responded
"the reason that intelligence, for the time being, correlates with atheism is that in our public education, the balance of faith/reason has been lost, & the kids more gifted with reason WIN. What we have is not good "public" education, but "government" education on what I might call a reverse-madrassa basis (the Islamist madrassa being faith, NOT reason)."

An incredible response, when you think about it.
1. Public Education in the US DOES NOT teach faith!!!! When I was in school in the 50s and 60s, Jesus was never mentioned.
2. The smart kids and the less smart kids ALL went to the same school.

So to argue that
"the balance of faith/reason has been lost" is absurd.
If it has been lost, it has been lost for all kids, smart and dumb.
and its the smart kids who realize God is a Fraud.

(should not be viewed as an endorsement for anyone)

Oh, and one more thing:
see this video:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=PMq4akUZr8c
then look and the last several covers of the Economist and the New Scientist online (in parallel) - see if you can find where "the wall" is/was.
That's what "The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life" is about.

Oh yes, I forgot to mention that Almighty me can turn on a light in my house by flipping a light switch. I believe that entire process actually is dependent on about 2000 people working day and night. Wow, I am a peon.

Dr. Elliot the problem is that a small group of the general voting populus, about five-percent, sold themselves as higher and ethical human beings. They have been exposed in public as nothing of the sort, as a group they are viewed as pedophiles, perverts, customers of prostitutes, over-spenders and I would include arrogance and ignoring the needs of the flock, in this case the general American populus.

Watching the Government in action or inaction, I see lip service given to the Rule of Law. Some think that lawyers actually run the country. And so exfacto arguments defending past actions are in public display all over the media. One could suggest that when an Attorney General of The United States sounded like a very forgetful Defense Attorney for the Whitehouse, we were in trouble. Besides, Lawyers really don't like that leave your gift at the alter thing to reconcile differences with a neighbor, ain't no money to be made in that concept.

Now, this past week shows Pennsylvania in action for benefit of the populus in the area of Public Safety. Senator Specter wants to introduce legislation streamlining the deportation of criminal illegal aliens. Some would say there needs to be balance as in James the Justice. We must accomadate those here legally who qualify for the Right to earn citizenship under the Law, it's the Christian thing to do if you were to ask me.

Politicians threatening to deport 12 million illegal aliens were uncool. The proposal nearly sparked civil unrest that threatened every major city in our country. So look, does threatening the security of 12 million people with deportation fall under the categories of "under God" and "under the Constitution" ? I think not, I really do.

One other possible scenario is that abusing assets of Federal Government could lead to charges of (among other things) Industrial Espioniage. So in general, I suggest fear of the populus makes no room for under Gawd or Allah and ignoring the Rule of Law (as in criminal negligence) has got some people behind a rock and a hard place we can only imagine. I don't think a charactor trait known as "panic" is a Gawd given trait either.

You have given me something to be included into a meditation, good sir, thank-you.

"while in fact when I look at the night sky I see mostly darkness"

Your night sky are the heavens to me:

"Had I the heavens' embroidered cloths,
Enwrought with golden and silver light,
The blue and the dim and the dark cloths
Of night and light and the half-light.."

PS. Link didn't paste OK, here it is again:
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/charles_w_chuck_colson/2008/02/do_not_be_deceived/all_comments.html

The secular society, Doctor, is the product of the secular mind. The middle-ages mind was all dark, and the Enlightenment mind pretends to be light, by ignoring the inner darkness.
Such 'binarity' is irreconcilable, on one hand because the age-of-reason minds pretend there is nothing to be reconciled, and on the other hand because the middle-ages-minds claim that "God is light", while in fact when I look at the night sky I see mostly darkness - the sun is but a tiny insignificant speck of Creation.
This is what T.S. Elliot's "The Hollow men" is all about - The Shadow, something neither side of this false modern 'binarity' is prepared to acknowledge.

(also mentioned in my previous comment, here:
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/charles_w_chuck_colson/2008/02/do_not_be_deceived/all_comments.html)

What's a Lyre?