All Comments (29)

GaryD: you are truly a scholar of things one has no way of knowing.

Wiccan I pester no one I merely speak unpleasant truths. I am the watchman who is required to sound the alarm.

By the way though the Book of life was written before the foundations of the world were laid I was never given a copy nor would I want one.

From the Christian spiritual perspective there are four broad categories of people in the world. They are:

1)Those who are God's and are informed.

2)Those who are God's and are not informed.

3)Those who are not God's and do not care.

4)Those who think they are God's and are not.

2&3 are often all but indistinguishable in their actions.

Those of 4 often look better to the world at large than do those of 1 simply because 4 is where those who follow after theologies of works reside and after all if you are going to earn heaven/impress God you have to be mighty good. By the way based on several scriptures and a bit of logic I suspect that the more acclaim one receives for one's deeds in this life the less note is taken of those same deeds in heaven for As Jesus said of the man praying in public He has already received his reward.

It seems that most of the people commenting here are expressing signs of desperation as they defend superstition. It really is tragic and frankly a frustrating aspect of existence in America that Americans who have every opportunity for intellectual freedom seem to be lazy, unwilling or perhaps too fearful to take the leap towards enlightenment preferring to embrace the claptrap that emanates from the superstition peddlers, circus huckster clerics. Who in their right mind believes that Noah’s Ark is a true story or that Creationism offers insights into anything? Way too many Americans do for sure. BTW The 10 Commandments are basically wicked and misogynist. What’s the deal with a jealous boyfriend god that threatens damnation and hellfire if you dare check out another god? Isn’t that the modus of ex-lovers who stalk, assault and murder?

Yes of course there is no difference between Astrology, I Ching, crystal ball gazing, Judaism, Christianity or Islam etc. Religion is by definition the practice of myth, magic and superstition. Why we don’t as people seeking the common good take action and indict clerics for marketing something that isn’t proven is beyond me. Superstition peddlers and the whacky beliefs they continue to infect the gullible with deserve ridicule and criticizing for deluding the emotionally immature. When the pope/king dresses up like a Las Vegas show girl and parades on stage chanting magic words while waving a wand a la Harry Potter everyone really should break out in laughter yet thanks to the emotional bullying from childhood religious conditioning most can only genuflect as feudal serfs before a monarch. How crazy is that?

What part of reality aren’t you people eager to embrace? Why are you so willing to regurgitate the wretched rants of primitive, cave people as if any of their vile ways should be used as guidance today?

“Both Dawkins and Hitchens detail the Bible's disturbing violence, with the former submitting that the Old Testament God is "arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction. Jealous and proud of it, a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak, a vindictive bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." That's from Dawkins' 'The God Delusion' chapter one.

Growing up emotionally, being skeptical and thinking abstractly can only lead one to the truth and that is there are no gods or to date none are proven to exist, that clerics are frauds, and that Creationism/ ID are just plain stupid and inane etc. Oh and the fear of death is a waste of life.

Mumtaz,

you don't seem to know much about your Islam. Don't you remember that a guy recently was officially sentenced to death in Kabul for converting to Christianity and would have been killed if the international community had not intervened?

And "no compulsion IN Islam" means WITHIN Islam. It doesn't make any statement about changing your creed OUT OF Islam.

Dr. Elliot,

"I agree that church & school have separate spheres of work; but we're in trouble if the spheres are SO separate that either EXCLUDES reason or faith."

"I agree that chemistry & alchemy have separate spheres of work; but we're in trouble if the spheres are SO separate that either EXCLUDES chemistry or alchemy".

As a Muslim, I have read the Qur'an many times. The Qur'an advocates freedom of religion. Sura 2, v. 256; "There is no compulsion in religion".

Nowhere in the Qur'an have I seen a verse that advocates the death penalty for conversion out of Islam.

I question why Islam is the only faith used by Dr. Elliott as a contrasting example. The history of Islam does not support his strong indictment.

Instead, one may acknowledge that denying an individual's right to religious freedom is not limited to any one faith or people.

Merry meet, Wiccan!

I've been busy fighting religious persecution against Pagans closer to home, helping my daughter and her boyfriend move into their first apartment, stage managing a play, and buying a house.

Merry Meet, Lep! I was wondering where you were.

Does it seem to you that Dr. Elliott posts some of the things he does to get a rise out of the Pagans? :-)

Dr. Elliot:

Please tell me exactly why my Pagan child, or my neighbor's Muslim child, or my best friend's Buddhist child, or my cousin's atheist child should be subjected to a teacher-led Christian prayer and a Bible reading to begin her school day.
We take care of our morning religious rituals at home before leaving for work and school. Why can't the Christians do the same?
If my child wants to learn about the Bible, she has my permission to attend the Christian church of her choosing.

Jeff P:

I'm glad somebody got the story straight. I was beginning to worry that all 100,000 Christian denominations were in error. So Presbyterians are where they're SUPPOSED to be. Good show.

It's about time Billy Graham got fired and, what's his name, the Presbyterian minister that finally got the story straight, he, (it is a he?) should be America's pastor.

Lucifer loves it but I'm betting Wiccan doesn't to say nothing of the Billy Graham ministries.

Thanks, Jeff P. Coming from you, that is praise indeed.

There seems to be as many Christian Gods as there are Christians. Canyon Shearer and Kerusso assure me that God hates my guts, but Willis Elliot says,"As for God hating any people, Jesus smothered that evil: "Love your enemies.""

Who's right?

Wiccan:

well said, LOL!

That's an "internal problem" with some of the Christian writings. I believe apostle Paul was having some trouble with his thinking when some of the writings were in the draft form, or maybe some of this was revised during the re-writes throughout history.

Nevertheless, there's a joke about/among Presbyterians regarding the "predestination" stuff, that goes something like this:

Why don't we see Presbyterians evangelizing door-to-door? Answer: because they figure if you're saved, you're already sitting in the pews because you're SUPPOSED to be there!

"Garyd:
The fact is that The Book of Life was written before God ever said "Let there be light". Put simply If you were saved then you are saved now. What you do has nothing to do with whether or not you are saved."

Then why in hell are you pestering me about being "saved"? If I'm in that book, then it's all good. If not, nothing you or I do will change that. In my opinion, your God has very silly rules. Why urge someone to "salvation" when it's already been decided that he's going to burn? What's the sense in that?

Prof.Elliott

you say;

".....9/11 was only the most dramatic evidence of the fragility of our technological world and of the religion (scientistic secularism) and philosophy (materialism) emergent with it. Stay tuned for “awakenings.”

9/11 was about religion. If the terrorists had realized that there is no Allah, and no Paradise, and no celestial virgins, they would not have committed suicide. While we know they are dead, their outrageously nonsensical beliefs persuaded them otherwise. That's religion.

"Mr. Elliot
"I agree that church & school have separate spheres of work; but we're in trouble if the spheres are SO separate that either EXCLUDES reason or faith.

Faith is believing in something that cannot be proven. It can not be measured, quantified, etc. So a teacher of faith can only teach his own concept of faith. No person’s concept of faith is more or less correct, true, or provable, than anyone else’s.
Math teachers have standards, rules, and measurable and demonstrable methods. If you ask a teacher “Why does three minus two equal one?” They can actually show you. One does not simply have to believe it because the teacher, or even the school said it was so.
If that same teacher says in a devotion: “God has a special place in his mansion for firemen, prostitutes and soldiers.” That statement cannot be questioned or examined or proven, and in fact may even fire up the passions of those that do not agree with that interpretation.
Public schools are required to teach to all students, regardless of creed/religion. Students are required to attend school. Private schools are not available to most families.
When communities and churches built and ran schools there was flexibility and choice. The simple problem sir, is that when we turned education over to the government, and made laws regarding attendance, we eliminated much freedom of choice. Now, public school teachers are government employees, constitutionally required to maintain religious neutrality.
Faith belongs to individuals, families, churches, as a choice. Would you have it any other way?

Mr. Elliot
“Since you didn't tell me what "fragile" means to you, I can only expand on what I meant. “

Frankly sir, ‘fragile’ is not the part I was having trouble understanding.
I simply cannot decipher your connection between 9/11, philosophy, and technology

Are you saying we were attacked because of our materialism? Are you saying that technology is responsible for materialism? Ergo; Technology = Getting attacked?

I am not trying to bait/trap you sir, at least until I am more sure I understand what it is you are saying…

Of course you left out the fact that millions of Americans and folks world wide are for the first time being shown what faith is actually all about -the possibility it was Devil and not God in the famous and critical for faith burning bush. Can't blame you for that.

Does http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul have anything to do with the PEW finding? Will it have any effect in the future?

Christian religion as originally chartered was a government that templates the old USSR communist variety -run by a central governing body that rules with an iron fist. The Reformation was somewhat of an improvement but not much. Calvin continued with Inquisition and burning witches at the stake -difficult to see any real difference except who got the money from the collection. Don't you think we Americans with all our cold war experience might not be experiencing a bit of subconscious, not rebellion but acceptance that such governments are inherently evil and we are simply doing as our government has told us to do by rejecting them.

In the notation of Ronald Regan, religions are evil empires -communist dictator "Castro's Cuba" look-alike. From that perspective it's easy to equate Hoax Buster to Luke Skywalker. And Americans have been propagandized in the direction of destroying evil empires to say nothing of the fact that Luke has been painted lillywhite, as pure as the driven snow. What sort of person would embrace communism or bad mouth Luke Skywalker?

No to belabor the point but what kind of free election was held to make Billy Graham America's pastor? How about the pope? Wasn't he elected by the central committee just like the Soviet Chairman?

What PEW has discovered may well be a subtle subconscious, "Manchurian Candidate" sort of thing. We can be sure there is no one thing that has caused or will continue to causes faith hopping but there is probably one that overwhelms all others. Could that be Hoax Buster? Maybe it's the government? Are we simply getting a little smarter as a whole? Did ecumenical cause Catholics to bolt and scandalize Baptists? How many causes are there?

The Matrix (short version)

Ego - Neo (as Son of Man)
Anima - Trinity
Shadow - Morpheus
Self - Smith (as Adam, the Man)

Ego becomes inner self, demiurge (Architect) looses power over mankind.

"Scientistic secularism" a religion? I think this presumption was debunked long ago: The fanatic non-stamp-collector - an oxymoron. The expression is one of your polemic attempts to disguise superstition using a serious-sounding sheepskin, to use another ill-fitting metaphor.

Non-religionists cannot be described by the term "materialists" anymore, neither in the shallow pejorative sense of materialism as a synonym with superficiality, nor in the classical (Marxist) sense nor even in an honest scientific sense. Science is not "materialism".

A new possibility of the "spiritual atheism" looms large, and it will prevail, as a valid and beautiful view of the world (closer, but not identical to paganism), compared to the ugly threats and carrot and sticks corruptions of established religions.

The results of the survey do not surprise me at all. Religious folk believe in the things they do because they want them to be true. Moving to another faith is simply the mind adjusting its idea of what it wishes reality to be just a bit. I say "just a bit", because at a high level, various religions are not that much different from each other. All claim to have a monopoly on the ultimate truth, pretty much all claim that those of other religions are being mislead by their leaders (some even say those of other religions will be damned for all eternity), and pretty much all say that belief in any god(s) is better than no belief at all. So once your mind is set in a mode where it believes in things without proof ("faith") the rest is simply shopping around for better "peripherals".

The variability of religions, to an unbeliever like me, is just window dressing.

The fact is that The Book of Life was written before God ever said "Let there be light". Put simply If you were saved then you are saved now. What you do has nothing to do with whether or not you are saved.

Willis,

You complicate the issue.

Why are many of us dropping our orthodox affiliation and becoming persons with religious reservations, secularists or atheists??

The answer is simple, the "pew sitters" and "bowers" are becoming more aware of the flaws in the founders and foundations of religion and no longer accept the myths, embellishments and lies associated with these religions.

Once these flaws are promulgated, there will be little left to teach other than some form of a godless set of commandments and the US Bill of Rights.

Dr. Elliot,

madrassa is Arabic for School. There are public madrassas and religious madrassas.

If kids want to pray, they can do it at home, around the flag pole or silently before their math tests..I did. Me saying a quick silent plea to the Goddess to pass a test, did not make it of less value or more if I would have screamed it over the PA system...if I did not study.
Even as a young girl my faith was private to me. I did not need a crowd to pray with me...it was between me and my Deity...and none of anyone elses business.

Evolutionism? What happened to Science?

And again...was it the Gays, Pagans, and the ACLU that caused 9-11? It could not possibly be because we back a country that has been tyrants over others and we have given them the means to accomplish it? That we are bullies and stomping on other's sacred land? It just has to be those who you and your ilk do not agree with...those who do not carry YOUR American Mind..Thank the Gods.

~"there was a shifting away from God-centeredness (theocentricity) to humanity-centeredness (“the anthropocentric shift”)..."

I am special! as are you...there is no other like me...I am created by the same Being that created the Universe..WOW!! I was touched by the Divine and I carry that touch with me. As do you. We are each the center of the universe...as is each star, planet and blade of grass.

There is a part of the sun in an apple,
A part of the moon in a rose,
a part of the flameing stars,
In every leaf that grows.

terra

Dr. Elliott:

"Today, dropping “out of any formal religious group” is the most noticeable phenomenon. Tomorrow?"
--But isn't such a situation more than just an ebb and flow? What is the status of the eternal souls who ebb? Who flow? Shouldn't this be of eternal concern?

"Every religion appeals for converts as the best way to live. / A society open to religious conversion potentially advantages every religion.."
--isn't this just a celebration of believing anything supernatural, just so long as it's believing? Would this be a celebration of deism?

"For conversion out of Islam, the Qur’an threatens the ultimate punishment, death."
--yet, for conversion out of Christianity, comes the promise of eternal death and suffering. What's up here?

".....An ironic side-benefit of this increased religious mobility in America is its effect on an old argument that no religion can be the true one or even the most true one.."
--does this religious mobility then disprove the "old argument?"

"there was a shifting away from God-centeredness (theocentricity) to humanity-centeredness (“the anthropocentric shift”)..."
--what can be more anthropocentric than thinking that I am a special person in the eyes of the creator of the universe, that every hair of my head is numbered in the accounts of heaven, and that God's got my picture in his wallet?

"Give a little boy a hammer, and he looks around for something to hit. Give adults (scientists) commensurability, and they look around for something to measure: what is “real” is what is measurable, which is matter and its spacetime extensions."
--give a person a case of colonic cancer and see if he goes exclusively to his reverend faith-healer or to his board-certified oncologist...

"...our schools are reverse madrasaas, reason excluding faith..."
--I don't send my son to school to learn faith. There are other avenues for that learning. And reason isn't a bad place to start, in school.

"9/11 was only the most dramatic evidence of the fragility of our technological world and of the religion (scientistic secularism) and philosophy (materialism) emergent with it."
--absolutely unbelievable. What utter hogwash. I can't even pretend to be hospitable to this garbage statement. Shame on you.

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN

POSSUM::

Since you didn't tell me what "fragile" means to you, I can only expand on what I meant. / Faith & reason are human potentials, to work together. / Thousands of Islamist' madrassas are faith only: our public-schools are reason only, & do not represent (as the American civilization has done & is doing) the BALANCE AND BLEND of the two - as they did 45 years ago, the school-day beginning with an act of devotion (teacher-led prayer & Bible-reading). / "Fragile" is the condition when either reason or faith are left out of education or (as I said) philosophy (materialism, & not only in Marx's "scientific materialism") or religion (scientistic secularism). / The more complex our technological world becomes, the more fragile it is - of which 9/11 is - is it not? - "dramatic evidence."

WICCAN

Dictionaries are always behind. At a recent colloquy in Berkeley CA, "evolutionism" was used in the new sense: a materialist philosophy derivative from considering that "science" (in the sense of commensurability + experiment) is the sole source of "knowledge" & "truth." As a Christian, I rejoice in evolution & reject evolutionism (& creationism, which is a literalistic reading of the Bible's beginning).

(As for God hating any people, Jesus smothered that evil: "Love your enemies.")

SOCKPUPPET

In speaking (above) for the balance & blend of faith & reason, I implicitly rejected your statement that religion/churches are "faith excluding reason." / I agree that church & school have separate spheres of work; but we're in trouble if the spheres are SO separate that either EXCLUDES reason or faith.

Where is Susan Jacoby? Has she been deleted by WAPO? Didn't fit the fascist mold of religionists, what?

Secular Public Schools are:” reason excluding faith"
Churches (religion) are 'faith excluding reason'

I really don't see the problem, The two have nothing to do with each other and therefore are completely compatible as separate entities. I no more want my kid's math teacher explaining the book of Acts than I would want a Baptist preacher teaching him calculus.

"7.....Public-school factors pushing Americans into secularistic churchlessness: (1) the evolutionism (bio-scientism) taught in our public schools, and (2) the fact that for the past 45 years, teacher-led prayer and devotional Bible-reading have been forbidden. The effect is that our schools are reverse madrasaas, reason excluding faith."

I'm getting the feeling that you think this is a bad thing. Is this another instance where the minorities (Jews, Muslims, Pagans, Atheists) need to shut up and sacrifice their rights in order not to upset the "American Mind"? A lot of Christian theology is reprehensible in my opinion; Canyon Shearer and Kerusso assure me that God hates me with a passion. Why should I allow my child's mind and spirit be poisoned by "God's hatred for mankind" as part of his school-day?

As for "evolutionism (bio-scientism)", let's start with Wiki:

"In the creation-evolution controversy, those who accept the scientific theory of biological evolution by natural selection or genetic drift are often called "evolutionists", and the theory of evolution itself is referred to as "evolutionism" by creationists. This label is used by creationists to suggest that evolution is similar to other "isms", such as Creationism, Evangelism, Judaism, Socialism, Communism, Capitalism, Nationalism, Catholicism. In this way, creationists bolster their claim that the scientific theory of evolution is a belief, dogma, ideology or even a religion, rather than a scientific theory. The terms "evolutionism" and "evolutionist" are rarely used in the scientific community as self-descriptive terms.

"Evolutionism", is defined by the OED as "[t]he theory of evolution, evolutionary assumptions or principles". Creationists tend to use the term evolutionism in a misleading sense in order to suggest that evolution and creationism are equal in a philosophical debate."

Sir, if you support teaching creationism as an equal to the theory of evolution, I'm afraid you have just lost whatever respect I had for you.

Mr. Elliot;
Could you please explain this line:
"9/11 was only the most dramatic evidence of the fragility of our technological world and of the religion (scientistic secularism) and philosophy (materialism) emergent with it"

Seriously, I do not wish to falsely continue thinking it means what I think it means....