An ordained United Church of Christ and American Baptist minister, "On Faith" panelist Dr. Willis E. Elliott has been a pastor, teacher, lecturer, administrator, consultant (to Newsweek for 38 years), church executive, and the author of six books. His five earned degrees in religion include a PhD, University of Chicago, where he was divinity research librarian. He taught in colleges, seminaries, & universities--including the University of Hawaii, where he taught "The World's Great Religions" and "Religion and the Meaning of Existence." At the 1966 Triennium of the National Council of Churches, he was the interlocutor with Billy Graham.
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Willis E. Elliott
Minister, teacher, author
An ordained United Church of Christ and American Baptist minister, "On Faith" panelist Dr. Willis E. Elliott has been a pastor, teacher, lecturer, administrator, consultant (to Newsweek for 38 years), church executive, and the author of six books.
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4. I was raised as a muslim but I became attached to Islam during the past 10 years.
3. I was lucky to be able to read the Quran and life of Prophet Mohammad in the arabic language and understand it. I also had friends from all walks of life and denominations. I was not looking for a way to distinguish Islam from all other religions, but rather to find a connection to all of them with Islam. To me, if this connection is broken, nothing made sense as far as God's existance is concerned. So I read the bible (old and new testaments). I focused on these scriptures and the Quran because these are the only people who claim that they received a divine message from the heavens above. I prepared myself for big shocks. I can tell you now that without such an experience I would have not been here posting around this board. The beauty in the Quran is that it reshuffles everything down to the very basic nature of a human being. The language, the coverage, and the effect of the verses of the Quran are so powerful that no human can even imagine. The Quran came to people who were masters in their language and the most honorable among them were the poets. Yet, God challenged them (in some verses in the Quran) to produce just one verse like it. The Quran is full of direct challenges on many levels. These challenges induce confidence in the hearts of the believers. There are many levels of complexities in the Quran that 100s of scholars spent their lives studying. One thing that separates the Quran from other scriptures is the wealth of information that need to be explained. Muslim scholars approached it from a linguistic view, a scientific view, a do's and don't view, and so on. The fact that the Quran is the most authenic divine book on earth gave these scholars more reasons to pursue its intrepretations on many levels. Some tried to find a single error in the many aspects of their research but they couldn't find any!
As for prophet Mohammed, you really need to read his life story. I have no doubt that what you will find about him will amaze you even if you are not a muslim.
1&2- I really think you should approach the Quran with its many aspects in mind, not just the scientific ones. Put a goal in front of you, like trying to find "anything" that makes no sense, whether it is scientifc, social, human laws, etc. Right from verse one to the last verse in the Quran, there is ALWAYS new things to learn. There is one condition for you to receive the Quran properly in your heart, make an intention to learn and to seek guidance.
Thank you for your interest in my seeing the light. I have 4 questions that will help me to discern better whether you're honestly speaking the truth which I can understand.
1. Do you share Moody's conviction that Quran among other things is a collection of scientific wisdom that was given out 1400 years before it was actually discovered? and that it is one of the proofs of Quran's divine origin?
2. If that's the case can you accompany each piece of knowledge in Moody's list with exact page number reference in the Quran so I can check it for myself?
3. What kind of homework did you do, Somalitrade, that convinced you that Quran and Mohammad are from God?
4. Did you become a believer in adult age or were you raised as a Muslim?
Please allow me to intervent in the discussion between you and Moody. You wrote:
"Your #1 & #2 are cancelled by this at the end of the New Testament’s first book: “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always....” Jesus said that we Christians are to worship the Holy Trinity, in which he is the Son."
Is it not ironic that the kingpin of christianity is not found in all four books (Mathew, John, Mark, and Luke)? Amzingly, the oldest of these books does not contain your quoted statement! Yet, you can find Jesus' words to the gentile woman in all four books, Jesus said it clearly: "I am only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel". He went on telling her that "dogs should not eat of the childeren's food!", meaning she is out of the equation. He was called the king of the jews and he preached only to the Jews. He stuck to the teachings of the Torah and when asked which commandment they should follow, he pointed to the first one, "worship the only God that is there in heavens". Then you stress the sonship of god again, yet you know that Jews were called sons of God and even more interestingly were called gods as in "Ye are gods"!. This is exactly what I am talking about. You need to stop for a while and re-evaluate your beliefs because, if you execuse the words, they are unreliable and doubtful at best.
You say “muslims obey Jesus...more than Christians.” What Islam means by “Jesus” is far less than what the New Testament means, namely, that “Jesus” is our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ. Muslim interpreters cherry-pick the NT for phrases allegedly confirmatory of the Qur’an, but the spin job violates the NT’s spirit & message.
Your #1 & #2 are cancelled by this at the end of the New Testament’s first book: “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always....” Jesus said that we Christians are to worship the Holy Trinity, in which he is the Son.
On your #4: The orant (prayer) position in the Bible was mainly standing with arms raised together. The early-Christian orant position added extended arms, in mimesis of Jesus’ Cross. Prostration was only for special occasions.
On your #5: Jesus says it’s OK to eat pig: Gospel of Mark 7.15-19, Jesus “declared all food clean.”
On your #6: Jesus turned water into wine (Gospel of John 2.7-10) & did not say (4 times!) that wine has “bad attributes.” Further, it was not Paul but the Gospel of John (2.11) which declared that this miracle was Jesus’ first.
On your #8: We Christians say Islam is wrong where it differs from the Bible: you Muslims say the Bible is wrong where it differs from the Qur’an. A standoff.
On your #9: We Christians say that in & as Jesus, God became a human being & it is blasphemous to refuse to worship the Holy Trinity—which, you Muslims claim, it is blasphemous to worship. Another standoff.
On you #10: No, we Christians are not “divided” about Jesus death on the Cross; and your saying there are “dozens of Bible verses” to the contrary (the fact being that there is not even one) evidences your dismal ignorance of the Bible, which you Muslims are not encouraged to read. Too, you show here no inkling of the Christian doctrine of the atonement, of Jesus’ voluntary vicarious suffering for the world’s sins, of God’s self-sacrifice for our salvation; indeed, you deny even the possibility.
On your #11: The Qur’an accuses Christianity of making Jesus a “partner” of God, but we Jews-Christians-Muslims are monotheists—so God has no “partner.” The anti-monotheistic notion that Jesus for Christians is a partner with God is ditheistic (worship of two gods)--a misunderstanding of the Christian doctrine of God as Holy Trinity (“tri-[u]nity” is the word coined to mean One God in Three “Persons” [two technical terms]).
I don’t mind your laying out contrasts between Islam and Christianity—but, as Sergeant Friday said, “only the facts, please.”
"My kind", as you put it, isn't trying to impose anything on you. My earlier post exactly reflects that. Prophet Mohammad could not convince one of his beloved uncles to enter Islam. God gives guidance and inspiration to EACH soul. Rejection comes for different reasons. The pophet's uncle did not want to leave his tribe's tradition, even though he defended the prophet and protected him as long as he lived on this earth. I always think that Athiests are the closest to become muslims because they detached themselves from any religious dogmas, right or wrong, and they ask for proofs. The issue with Athiests is that they made their minds before they do their homework. Researching what's in the scripture is a time well spent and you are in a no-bias position that should enable you to pick what makes sense and reject the nonsense. If, after you've done your work, you still think you want to continue on your path, at least you can argue that you did your best. I did exactly what I am asking you to do and I am happy where I am. I don't have any inner struggle and all I wanted to make others feel the same. As for forcing others into Islam, as you hinted to the people of "my kind", I only have the Quran to defend me:
2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
You can close your eyes or do not accept for what ever reasons you have..
BUT YOU CAN'T DENY THAT EVERY RATIONAL INTELLIGENT LOGICAL KNOWLEDGE & SICENCE IS TESTIFYING FOR QURAN....AFTER EVERY NEXT DISCOVERY AND AWARENESS!
MODREN SCIENCE AND QURAN (ISLAMIC DIVINE BOOK)
Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (WHICH BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK. THE ONLY LOGIC IS THAT ITS FROM SOMEONE WHO IS COMMUNICATING TO A HUMAN AND KNOWS BETTER THAN HUMANS)
- For some people ONE sign is enough to believe.
- For some people 10 signs are enough.
- But some people don't come to believe even after more than 1000 miraculous signs.
Verses about:
1- Big bang theory (in a nut shell).
2- Geo spherical Ostrich egg shaped earth (spherical which is the exact shape)
3- Cosmic dust (referred more perfectly as smoke).
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Earth, sun and stars revolving on their axis and path (orbits).
8- Sun and moon have different paths (orbits).
9- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
10- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.
11- Upper thin layer of earth, which is hold by mountains as nails (bigger in size deep in earth) from shacking.
12- Perfect shape and stages of human embryo.
13- All living being made out of water.
14- All plants and even fruits have male and female atributes.
15- The exact way of plants and animals behaviour and how they communicate.
AND MANY MORE............
THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.
MUSLIMS OBEY JESUS (A.S.) AND HIS GOD OF ALL CREATURES MORE THEN CHRISTIANS:
BRINGING PROOF FROM YOUR OWN BIBLE BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN IT SO YOU NEED IT TO VARIFY, AS MUSLIMS PROOF AND WHAT WE BELIEVE IS QURAN.
Lies or Truth: Evidence speaks for it self !
1- There is not a single verse in ANY VERSION of Bible where Jesus (A.S) said, worship me OR I'm god. Instead he said,” I speak what I hear from father”, “My Father is greater than me."
2- Again word "Trinity" is not mentioned in ANY VERSION of the Bible. The closest verse to trinity that,” Father, Holy Ghost & spirit is one" is thrown out in your REVISED VERSION of Bible. As all your high priests said,” It was a concoction, fabrication, addition, a lie in the Bible, as no such verse is found in the most ancient scriptures".
So please ask your own priests who is lying and fabricating??????
3-We Muslims FOLLOW more in Jesus (A.S) commandments then you Christians:
(You say, you love Jesus (A.S.), but you disobey his every commandment).
4-From Adam to Jesus (PBUT) MENTIONED IN YOUR BIBLE, all prophets when prayed to God, they prostrated like we Muslims.
Do you follow Jesus, how to pray?
5- In ALL Bibles more than 3 times Jesus said swine-pig is forbidden to eat. We Muslims follow him, but you Christians follow PAUL and disobey Jesus (A.S.) commandments.
6- More than 4 occasions in ALL Bibles Jesus (A.S) told wine has bad attributes on the humans. But Paul quotes the "FIRST MIRACLE OF JESUS" and since then wine is flowing like water in Christendom and NOT AT ALL in Muslimdom. (Bible said water tasted like wine and never said turned into wine).
7- Jesus said," I came to keep all the commandments of the God and not to break them". But you Christians broke EACH AND EVERY of them.
Hale-aluu-Yaa to Church, Paul, Mathew, John and Luke!!!!!
8-According to Christian Bible first miracle of Jesus (A.S.) was turning water taste like wine and recovering the shortage in the gathering. But according to Quran the first miracle of Jesus was talking to Jews when he was infant in his mother’s arms.
When after birth, Mary came:
According to the BIBLE she told the Jews that she hear voices and then had a child birth. Do you believe your daughter or sister, if she come and tell you she had birth after hearing voices? Do you think when “IF” Mary had told that to the Jews, they would have believed her???
But Quran tells that the Jews accused her, she knows that Jesus (A.S) was the miraculous birth. So she told the Jews ask the infant. And miraculously Jesus (A.S) talked to them and told them that I’m the messenger from God, therefore be nice and respectful to my mother as she is among the highest of the pious. Quran gives highest respect to Mary, even there is a complete chapter by her name in Quran. You have chapters named by Mathew, Luke, John or lying Paul and many others but not a single by his mothers name Mary.
Which version would you like to tell to your children, HEARING VOICES AND GETTING PRAGNANT or MIRACULOUS TALK????
9-Christians says Jesus (A.S) was the BEGOTTEN SON. What are you trying to apply here? So what you are trying to put in all the humans throat is that the All Mighty God Who made every thing miraculously from Adam to every thing of this world needs to come done to seed…. (God forgive us for such satanic thinking). Allah tells in Quran that when He wants to do some thing, He just says and it happens. He begets not nor He begotten. Human miracles are not the proof of any kind of divinity. Jesus (A.S) was the prophet like all other prophets with miracles.
10-Christians says Jesus (A.S) get crucified for there sins. And a son of god (not mentioned any where in the Bible he himself never said that). And dozens of Bible verses proving that he was not died through crucifixion. You Christians are also divided about it.
So basically what you are making to swallow us (the whole human race) is that the whole nation rape, kill and do bad atrocities and when brought for justice there King hang his own son instead of punishing them. IT DOES REALLY MAKE SENSE! Hale- alu- Yaa PAUL and the greatest deceiving of the human history.
11- Jesus says “ He is jealous God only pray to Him”. But Christians are eager to make partner to Him. We Muslims only pray to God and don’t make any partners to Him.
So I am asking you a question:
Next time does Jesus (A.S) come to the house of people who are obeying his commandments OR who are TOTALLY disobeying his commandments???
1But know this, that in the last days grievous times shall come. "
I think someone has a ready quote from some millenia BCE about how surely the end of the end of the world was at hand, Matthew.
Your world is *always* ending. I'm not sure you'd have any clue what to *do* if it *wasn't* ending.
Which is basically the track record.
Do you want to live?
It does take some effort, and thinking the world ends with you is easier, but, really.
"3:6For of these are they that creep into houses, and take captive silly women laden with sins, "
Great. Keep me up all night, why don't you. I'll have you know that few can rival *my* silliness, and now you're talking about more stalkers than I already dealt with. What's this? :)
Gods. You know, there's enough people out there talking about the nasty things they either want to do to me or are 'merciful' for *not* doing quite so much to me over *sins,* and now you book-people are doing home-invasions against the *silly?*
Mother of Punk, what's a girl to do in your world?
*ahem* Btw, the guys who wrote that thought the world was coming to an end, immediately, too.
Go figure.
It was a long time ago, but maybe you can understand why they were talking all bad trip and all. :)
1But know this, that in the last days grievous times shall come. 3:2For men shall be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, railers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3:3without natural affection, implacable, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, 3:4traitors, headstrong, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; 3:5holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power therefore. From these also turn away. 3:6For of these are they that creep into houses, and take captive silly women laden with sins, led away by divers lusts, 3:7ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 3:8And even as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also withstand the truth. Men corrupted in mind, reprobate concerning the faith. 3:9But they shall proceed no further. For their folly shall be evident unto all men, as theirs also came to be. 3:10But thou didst follow my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, patience, 3:11persecutions, sufferings. What things befell me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. 3:12Yea, and all that would live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 3:13But evil men and impostors shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 3:14But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them. 3:15And that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 3:16Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. 3:17That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.
Oh, thank you, Somalitrade, for choosing that quote from the Quran as it’s supposed to show your gracious intentions with the unbeliever like myself. But you can skip the consequences part for my non-belief as I already know of them: hell and fire and “draughts of boiling fluids”, since it’s said:
8.14. Thus (will it be said): "Taste ye then of the (punishment): for those who resist Allah, is the penalty of the Fire." 8.55. For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.
So first of all you leave me puzzled over the sincerity of your intentions. Because if I persist in rejecting Allah can I really go around in plain sight unpunished even though I am a living epitome of the offense against Islam? I have my doubts as it is also said:
4.76. Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan. 4.101. For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.
So let me inform you in honesty of my plans with you and your kind. I intend to “fight” mentally (as you put it) the believers of all stripes be that religious or secular. I intend to not let your kind inherit the Earth as I think this planet is mine not less than yours. That is if we, after we present our best arguments, do not find a common ground then neither your understanding of what shall be a universal law of good for all men nor mine shall govern. In other words, we’ll have no choice in the end but leave each other alone and part our ways. At best our dealings with each other will be strictly economic.
But if some of your kind wants his beliefs to still be everybody’s law and work to impose it then we’ll fight not mentally but physically until one of us kills the other. It is a possibility as I know how serious your beliefs are in and for your life. But so are mine. And I want you to know that I am not less than your kind prepared to fight and die for my beliefs.
That said, let’s get back to business of mental persuasion.
What I am also puzzled about is this:
Since Allah as you believe is the creator of all things and men then he is responsible for hardening my heart so that I don’t believe in him. And I am telling you - since I was once a believer but then rejected god not only because of no evidence but as an evil concept that enslaves human minds – that you can skip your prescribed role to “Invite (me) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching” and think of me simply as an un-chosen one.
Why did your “Lord” chose you to believe and be righteous and good man and chose me not to believe and be wicked and evil? Who knows. Maybe it’s just his (evil, in my opinion) way to show YOU his power. Since I won’t listen to your beautiful preaching what’s left for you now is only to pray to Allah that he really have mercy on me and change my ways or else - kill me.
Wait. There is another choice. If you have any human compassion, any empathy whatsoever to my horrible plight created by Allah how about that YOU, Somalitrade, show mercy on me?
How about revolting against Him, standing up for your fellow mortal whose mind is so irreversibly blinded? How about telling Him that it is cruel not to soften my heart, not to show me His power, hide from me and instead convincing me that He IS NOT just ‘because He CAN? How about telling Allah that your heart grieves so badly for me that you, Somalitrade, will reject Him if He doesn’t end this centuries old merciless show, if He doesn’t bring me and in fact ALL the humans to Allah now?!
But… I know and you know that you’ll pay the price for it…
Or will you?...
Or too afraid of losing your spot in the Heavenly Caribbean?
in Holland and Germany and Scandanavia, where they don't count on the Abstinence only nonsense and have birth control information and "equipment" regularly available
Abortion is much lower than in the US
and STDs are ASTOUNDINGLY lower.
the Morality of Abstinence only is that it leads to more abortions, and more STDS, many more.
what kind of morality is that? Wishful morality, for one. trait.
the US has the highest abortion rate and the highest STD rate among the highly developed countries. and homicide rate. and infant mortality rate. and child poverty rate.
6 out of 10 women who have abortions are already mothers..finances are the biggest reason for the abortions. As the economy for all the people get better, abortions go down.
From the 1990's to 2003 the rate of abortion was going down...maybe due to contreception, it seems that since 2003 there has been a rise, even though there are less clinics who do abortions.
There were 27% less teen pregnancies during the years 1990-2000. This during the time when there were was better sex education.
Now there is abstanance only being taught and I was informed that 40% of the girls here in the bible belt are leaving school because of being pregnant. I was also informed by a health worker that in a Colledge here ( a good one) that STD's and HIV are60 to 75%.
horrible..
This has nothing to do with god..it has to do with those teachers and schools being as conservative as possible so that they do not get in trouble with the parents and faith based groups. For every known case of HIV there are five that is unknown...and those are majority young folks under the age of 25. Why are they taking their lives in their hands...because of stupid, god pushing moralizeing dumb@$$es that lie about facts. Just say NO has worked so well with drugs...hasn't it?
Tell the truth, teach the kids to respect themselves and their partners, and stop moralizeing, it's a health issue!
Sex outside of marriage has no redeeming social value, converesly it creates a lot of problems i.e. You can get AIDS, hundreds thousands in this country have died from it, You can get sexual diseases from it, hundreds have died from it, You can cause an out of wedlock pregnancy from it,as a result we have a million abortions a year and have millions of single parent families, the largest cause of poverty and kids with no fathers and all the associated problems, you can destroy families, yourself, your partner and societie's recognition of what is right and wrong with it. Maybe that is why Christ condemed fornification.
Sex outside of marriage has no redeeming social value, converesly it creates a lot of problems i.e. You can get AIDS, hundreds thousands in this country have died from it, You can get sexual diseases from it, hundreds have died from it, You can cause an out of wedlock pregnancy from it,as a result we have a million abortions a year and have millions of single parent families, the largest cause of poverty and kids with no fathers and all the associated problems, you can destroy families, yourself, your partner and societie's recognition of what is right and wrong with it. Maybe that is why Christ condemed fornification.
There is one common rule in Islam when reasoning with non-muslims. This rule is plainly clear in the holy Quran:
16:125 Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.
A muslim role is not to force others into Islam, but rather carry the message and explain it to them. After that, it is upto them. It is also important for a muslim to explain the consequences, being good or bad, of their actions. A muslim will do the same with an athiest.
Surely not having sex outside marriage is more about not having kids outside marriage rather than not having love outside marriage, otherwise people would never get married in the first place. Apart from that, frustrated sexual energies may sublimate into spiritual energies, so that's one and the same potential.
it very simple obedience. It will my thoughts and flesh under God will. Whenever we do our own things well you see what happen. God give choices .but we cannot choose the results.
it very simple obedience. It will my thoughts and flesh under God will. Whenever we do our own things well you see what happen. God give choices .but we cannot choose the results.
I would like to begin with saying that although your opinions are very Christianly biased, and thus contradictory to my general nature, that they are pretty valid. Sometimes it takes a strong conservative to “overstate” something in order to even bring it back to a middle ground.
The issues that I have tend to revolve around assertions stated in your intro section. The conclusions seem to me to be pretty sound in both their ideas and practicality/applicability to life (as in the forgiveness matter). First, you assert that America is “obsessed with sex”. I would like to say that America is far form the extreme side of sex obsessed, but that the problem stems from the religious roots in which most of us were brought up. In this case religion has created the problem. It has created this by presenting us with a taboo. When a child is told not to touch the stove, he wants to do so anyway. But upon breaking this rule, he gets hurt, thus learning the lesson. When regarding sex, there is no immediate, visible, or even understandable adverse experience. I say all this under a presumption of safe, consensual sex. So we are brought up thinking that something is not only bad, but also a big deal. It makes it that much more intoxicating. It is the exact same thing with underage drinking. As a youth we are told that this is bad, and a big deal… until one reaches a certain age. Now when one is an adult and looks back on this it is an understandable position, but as a kid looking forward, it is a hypocritical and preposterous position. If we look at our European counter parts they have embraced sex. It is natural. It is a part of who we are. We cannot erase the desire without erasing part of our humanity. In Europe, sex is a normal part of life, and there is no “obsession” with it because it is not a taboo, and is not hypocritically taken away until “one is of age”. I believe that its is this extreme opinion, that say “sex has to be experienced under this set of constraints” that leads us to take it to far and to extremes. If it is a normal part of life and didn’t have a forbidden fruit context, many issues would disappear and it would become more middle ground.
I also believe that this issue with sex is linked but not causative of consumerism. In fact the degradation of religion could be just as much to blame. As a culture, we have become sinners on Sat. and saints for and hour on Sun. Religion as a whole has become lax in its teachings and too lenient on its congregation. People no longer are pushed to study and read and discover form themselves, rather they come to church for an hour and a half and listen to the pastor as if it were a TV show, and thus doesn’t apply to life. I believe that it has been this general slipping of American values based on making the most of what we have, in religion, school, family life, and life in general that has led to this sad state of consumerism.
I did enjoy reading you opinion and it had some interesting points, I think that u should take this view on sex scandal and apply it to a reflection on the masses who watch. You addressed cheating on a national and highly public level, but most of us will never achieve that notoriety and are thus obsessed with it. Perhaps if you were able to bring it down to earth people might learn form it, instead of saying that “it doesn’t apply to me”.
- Are you saying that you never got drunk and did some "silly" stuff? Most of the people who get killed in drunk driving accidents are those who drink responsibly! Ironic!**
No, I'm not saying that I've never gotten drunk and done silly stuff. I can say that I have never harmed anything other than my own dignity while drunk. I'm saying that the fact that SOMETIMES people get drunk and do silly or even dangerous things is no more reason to prohibit alcohol than the fact that sometimes people do silly or even dangerous things due to caffeine poisoning is to prohibit coffee.
**- Religions don't stretch paychecks. Islam, at least, shows you how to be thankful and how to spend it in a way that helps you, your family, and others in the society.**
And I have it on good authority that religion is not needed in order to learn budgeting skills.
**- Teaching kids patients and endurance starts at early age, not when you start seeing problematic behavior.**
Agreed. Which is why I started teaching her what her parts were and how they worked as soon as she wa old enough to ask questions about them. by the time she was five, she knew what a penis was, what a vagina was, and had a rudimetnary understanding of where babies came from that had nothing to do with storks, cabbage patches, or angels. When she had her first period at age nine, she knew exactly what was happening to her, and she and I went out and celebrated. And by the time her sex drive began to kick in, she knew what those feelings were about, she knew a few effective ways to masturbate, and she knew how to prevent STD's and pregnancy if and when she decided to have sex with someone other than a fantasy partner.
The post above signed Anonymous about the dangers of religion and other speculative thinking with regards to sex issues was from me.
I understand your point, thank you. But I didn't speak of alcoholics and drug addicts who of course can (or cannot) be helped and of adulterous people in marriage who can (or cannot) be reasoned.
I was talking of people who use drugs, drink, have multiple sexual encounters or live in polyamorous or say polyandrous families, or who are like myself are non-believers and atheists but who lead normal lives otherwise and don't bother anybody? What do you do about them?
What does it mean that atheists "need to be mentally confronted head on", for example?
"Jesus paid the bill, but we are still to be responsible stewards of the utility."
I thought that the "bigger the sin, the greater the redemption!". Please, for the sake of goodness and true stewardship, stop the philosophy lines and deal with the realities. The truth is Jesus paid no bill and you wish he did. You will be judged for every sin you made and will make!
"The system of self control, the system of moral values, the system of respect for the institution of marriage..."
Where you find these values in the bible? The old testament is full of anti-marriage-values! In the new testament, Jesus shot off all the taps! Marry one, if you look to another woman you commit adultary! There is no ESCAPE!
"How do you control the drinking masses? This statement is the epitome of mankinds problems. Out of control. Doesnt want to be in control. Control is bad. Control is not fun. Control limits me."
Perhaps you never heard about that religion, called Islam!
>>1. Why are you concerned about this being a sin or not? I thought that Jesus already paid the bill.
Jesus paid the bill, but we are still to be responsible stewards of the utility. And this worlds view of sex ever increasingly does not equal responsibility.
>>2. What system does christianity has that ensures the virginity of men and women in society? I mean a realistic system, not just abstaining from having sex, say when kids hit their teenage time!
The system of self control, the system of moral values, the system of respect for the institution of marriage...all which used to be more prevalent until the likes of Hefner, Flynt, et. al. came along. Much more to it than that..but - thats the gist of it in our most recent times.
>>3. With alcohol permitted and the christians always boasting that the first miracle of Jesus is turning water into wine, how do you control the drinking masses from having half-conscious inter-course which leads to millions of abortions a year?
How do you control the drinking masses? This statement is the epitome of mankinds problems. Out of control. Doesnt want to be in control. Control is bad. Control is not fun. Control limits me.
They wanted more, more, more freedoms in Rome.
Greek socities were filled with scholars..but not scholarly enough to hold a society together.
And we see it again...the very reason why this country is in a moral free fall. Time will tell if we turn it around.
Every problem you mentioned has its root in societies where great stress (financial, emotional, political, ..) is put on the people. These are very tough times relative to a few centuries ago. Contrary to the assumption that the first order in Islam is to get rid of these people, Islam actually urge muslims to reason with these people. Some need emotional support (such as drug addicts and drinkers), some need financial support, and some need to be mentally confronted head on (like athiests). Islam provides clear and un-contradictory paths to all these issues that would meet at the end to build a good social behavior.
A story that I always like to tell is one where I was visiting a muslim country. I was looking down from a balcony, and I saw a poor man who works in moving scraps of metal on a small wooden cart driven by a mule. It was over 45 degrees celcius. The man, apparently thirsty, went to a wter tap on the side of the street and took a bucket with him. He drank from the tap, then he put some water in the bucket. He took the bucket to the mule to let it drink. When the mule finished drinking, there was some water left in the bucket and i thought that the man will just throw it away on the street. Instead, he crossed the street carrying the bucket and threw the rest of the water at the root of a tree.
I thought, what a civilized individual!!! He felt thirsty and figured that the animal is thirsy as well. He didn't want to waste the water and provided the water to another creature (the tree). That man prbably doesn't know how to read or write, but what kind of values did he learn in that society that made him, inspite of his apparent need, is willing to give and not to feel deprived! Islam taught these people how to feel content for what they have and be responsible regardless where they are in the society.
Yes. And sadly, yet not unexpectedly, they suffered great loss due to their adulterous affair. To clarify 'not unexpectedly' - seems that there was a post on another commentors thread on this subject that basically questioned..'whats the big deal' regarding this particular subject. This is truly a 'head in the sand' mentality.
Without the marriage commitment between a man and a woman, the unit known as family breaks down first, then community, then society as a whole. It is a moral absolute just as 1 + 1 = 2 is a mathematical absolute.
>>That said, religion often distorts and perverts people's attitude towards sex, which is a natural if volatile thing. Many religious teachings make people so neurotic about sex that they can't integrate sex into the rest of their relationship without Jesus or Satan getting in the way of the personal connection, even within marrieage.
I must respectfully disagree. People such as Hefner and Flynt distorted and perverted peoples attitudes towards sex. Sadly, they were only the beginning. No neurosis in God's view of sex. It was made for marriage. As we have seen in the last half century...mans perversion of it has and is taking its toll. You were half right. Satan has gotten in the way...but Jesus would not have stood for what He would have seen today.
- Are you saying that you never got drunk and did some "silly" stuff? Most of the people who get killed in drunk driving accidents are those who drink responsibly! Ironic!
- Religions don't stretch paychecks. Islam, at least, shows you how to be thankful and how to spend it in a way that helps you, your family, and others in the society.
- Teaching kids patients and endurance starts at early age, not when you start seeing problematic behavior.
Your Islamic ways are crystal clear. You can live your ways fine. But there are polyamorous and homosexual families, drinkers, drug users, atheists etc. What do you do about it?
Why? Not everyone who drinks commits stupid or violent acts as a result. In fact, I'd venture to say that most people who drink do so responsibly. Prohibiting anyone fromconsuming alcohol just ecause some people use it irresponsibly is like prohibiting sugar because some diabetics binge on sweets, get behind the wheel, pass out, and hurt or kill someone.
**- Raise the spiritual level of people to help them face the daily stress that comes from financial and emotional issues**
I have yet to find a religion that stretches my paycheck.
**- Raise awareness in the society about the importance of early marriage as a way to protect the new generation from falling into adultary**
My daughter started going through puberty at the age of 9. Surely you don't think we should hae married her off then. Surely you don't advocate people getting married before they've even finished high school. My daughter is 17, and she and her boyfriend are tossing around the idea of marriage. I told them that I would prefer that they live together for at least a year before getting married. It is possible to love someone dearly, yet not be able to tolerate living with them day in and day out. If that's going to be the case with them, I'd rather they find out while it's possible to simply gather their things and go, rather than involve lawyers and judges.
**- Teach your kids patience and endurance, rather than rather than greed and selfishness.**
I taught my daughter why it was best to put off sex until she was an adult. I also taught her about contraceptives.
I have a lot to say (in response to your post) that might upset you because I do believe that christians have completely lost their way, but you seem like a decent man, so I will be brief.
1. Why are you concerned about this being a sin or not? I thought that Jesus already paid the bill.
2. What system does christianity has that ensures the virginity of men and women in society? I mean a realistic system, not just abstaining from having sex, say when kids hit their teenage time!
3. With alcohol permitted and the christians always boasting that the first miracle of Jesus is turning water into wine, how do you control the drinking masses from having half-conscious inter-course which leads to millions of abortions a year?
The inconsistencies in the christian society are overwhelming and it is not because Jesus said something wrong, but because he said the right things to the right people at the right time. Afterall, Jesus came ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and his message ended there as well. The Jews needed a hard-liner and Jesus was what they needed.
Jesus promised of another prophet who will come and give answers to all your problems. Jesus never asked you or anyone to follow his doctorine because it was intended for a limited number of people and a limited time. You need a system that fulfills your hopes and answers your three questions above. You need to:
- Prohibits the consumption of alcohol
- Raise the spiritual level of people to help them face the daily stress that comes from financial and emotional issues
- Raise awareness in the society about the importance of early marriage as a way to protect the new generation from falling into adultary
- Teach your kids patience and endurance, rather than rather than greed and selfishness.
Without you saying it, you seem to like the Islamic way of life....
As a non-believer and a skeptic I have a range of only negative emotions towards religious or any other presumptuous judgments about sex - from anger to sadness.
Religion perverts. Paganplace hit the nail here, didn't she: "... if I'd remained a 'virgin' till the day I got raped".
Talking about God's mysterious playful ways: he commands you to stay a virgin until married and then sends a rapist your way! If the system doesn't disgust you stay away from me. We will never make friends.
Paganpalce is also absolutely right about the dark meaning of the word "lust" in your head.
The important question always, always and always in anything in life is how we know of what we claim is right or wrong?
How do we know, what evidence do we have that lust is bad in and of itself? None. Just like we pass no judgment on our sense of hunger.
It's only when you obtained additional, external to your desire reason through faith in (god, objective love, the right one, the monogamy) that judges your lust as dark, sinful, abnormal that invades your psychology, your life and makes you feel guilty, not quite normal, not a good person. Your belief in unseen, unsupported objective entities creates your psychosis, a self-imposed stress, a personality split.
Dangerous and stupid!
I'm still trying to figure out why having played the chaste St. Joan made Ingrid Bergman's affair worse. It's called "Acting" for a reason - you
re ACTING like someone or something you aren't. It has nothing to do with the reality of your life.
I perform in community theatre - I've played a Jewish woman, a fanatical evangelical Christian (I'm Pagan), a lesbian (I'm straight), a secretary (I can't type worth a damn), and a maid (I don't do windows, and at my house "Dust" tends to more of a noun than a verb).
A few years back, one of the fundamentalist groups got all upset because the actor playing the role of some missionary in a bio-pic was not only openly gay, but a BGLT rights activist. So what? The important question is not "How closely do the actor's life and values parallel those of the character?" but rather "Can s/he act?"
"He was not lying when he said, “I didn’t have sex with that woman” (in his correct Southern Baptist sense, “sex” meant heterosexual intercourse)"
Just a reminder for readers-
It may not pass for Southern Baptist sex- but it is a risk..
"The sexually transmitted virus that causes cervical cancer also sharply increases the risk of certain types of throat cancer among people infected through oral sex, according to a study being published today."
I would include employer-employee in the list of abusive, and therefore, disallowed situations. If someone is consenting, even willingly, but the other person is in a position of authority, IMO, it's a form of coercion, even if it's unconscious.
Personally, I've always avoided getting involved with co-workers, even if there were no authority issues, simply because if the situation did sour, it could make for 40 hours of extreme awkwardness every week. But I have no objection to my other co-workers daing if they so choose. But I think that's why a lot of employers have prohibitons agaisnt employee "fraternization."
Ok... The Reverend is describing his spiritual practice. However, I'd suggest he consider that the 'numinous' and the 'sexual' aren't separate and opposed in the hearts and minds of everyone.
Thus the conditions by which he defines certain sex as 'sin' ...mean that imposing this religious practice on others is ...dare I say... Unamerican.
A lot of Christians like to use the words 'Lust' and 'Titillation' when describing what they imagine others are thinking or feeling.
I don't actually understand what these words *mean* (and I consider myself something of a wordsmith) ...unless in terms of 'A judgmental label for a thought about a hypothetical feeling probably someone else is having.'
The very words seem displaced from what sexuality *is*. The word 'Lust' seems full of shame and irresponsibility of itself. 'Titillation' seems to be about vicarious imaginings.
I don't see this thing about being a 'virgin' having anything to do with how deeply-connected one is to a partner, ...if this were so, I'd hardly see what it'd have done for my current partner, or my partner of the time, or the Gods, for that matter, if I'd remained a 'virgin' till the day I got raped.
Seriously. I'm glad I *knew* that wasn't what 'sex' was, or something thought I 'had:'
this 'thing' called 'virginity' that 'validated' my love and connection with other people...
Cause then some man who thought I needed to learn about his penis-power could have taken something irreplaceable from me.
Which seems to be part of the dark side of these ideas about 'sin' and 'purity' and 'sanctimony about virginity.'
Forget about it. It's not books or mechanical actions or ceremonies that define what's good and real and loving and sacred.
It's what the people involved bring to it.
"Lust." "Titillation." What the Hel are those words supposed to mean?
I must say that I respect this post of yours, even if I have a different point of view on most of your conclusions.
People should be free, as you are, to confine their sexual relations to marriage.
Sexual relations is surely a moral matter, as Lepi and Norrie state. Many of us don't think that marriage defines whether it is moral or immoral, but you stated your reasons in a respectful and pretty non-judgmental way.
I must say that I think you OVER state the emphasis placed on sex in American society. I suspect that our sexual drives are innately strong enough that people have concentrated on sex in roughly equal measure throughout history.
Remember David and Bathsheba.
That said, religion often distorts and perverts people's attitude towards sex, which is a natural if volatile thing. Many religious teachings make people so neurotic about sex that they can't integrate sex into the rest of their relationship without Jesus or Satan getting in the way of the personal connection, even within marriage.
Well, Norrie and Lepi, I can't quite agree. It may not be sinful, but it may certainly be unethical and maybe even unlawful. Having consensual sex in the workplace, depending on who is boinking whom, can most certainly create all kind of havoc.
A doctor, pastor, or counselor having consensual sex with one their patients, parishoners, or clients would definitely be considered unethical if not unlawful.
I am also in agreement with the two commenters, above.
Orthodox Christian taboos and restrictions regarding sex are wrong, and based on ignorance. If that makes me an apostate, then, I would ask, how do I re-capture my ignorance, once I have knowledge? I do not know how to do that, nor do I see that as a desirable goal. I do not think that the Bible should be used as a weapon to make people unhappy and ruin their lives.
That's the way I see it.
Any mutually agreed on sexual behavior among consenting adults is fine. Doesn't matter how many, doesn't matter what gender(s), doesn't matter what organs, orifices, or toys are employed. As long as all involved agree and are eligible to enter into such an agreement, it's all good.
No consent - it's not sex, it's rape. It's abuse.
Not an adult - it's not sex, it's rape. It's abuse.
If you've made a promise of monogamy, then you forfeit your right to consent with anyone else.
Let's consider the possibility that no consensual sexual activity can be considered sinful unless it involves some sort of abuse by one partner toward the other in the course of the activity.
And, if abuse does take place, the sin is really in the abuse, not the sex.
All Comments (48)
Indie:
I will start with the easy ones.
4. I was raised as a muslim but I became attached to Islam during the past 10 years.
3. I was lucky to be able to read the Quran and life of Prophet Mohammad in the arabic language and understand it. I also had friends from all walks of life and denominations. I was not looking for a way to distinguish Islam from all other religions, but rather to find a connection to all of them with Islam. To me, if this connection is broken, nothing made sense as far as God's existance is concerned. So I read the bible (old and new testaments). I focused on these scriptures and the Quran because these are the only people who claim that they received a divine message from the heavens above. I prepared myself for big shocks. I can tell you now that without such an experience I would have not been here posting around this board. The beauty in the Quran is that it reshuffles everything down to the very basic nature of a human being. The language, the coverage, and the effect of the verses of the Quran are so powerful that no human can even imagine. The Quran came to people who were masters in their language and the most honorable among them were the poets. Yet, God challenged them (in some verses in the Quran) to produce just one verse like it. The Quran is full of direct challenges on many levels. These challenges induce confidence in the hearts of the believers. There are many levels of complexities in the Quran that 100s of scholars spent their lives studying. One thing that separates the Quran from other scriptures is the wealth of information that need to be explained. Muslim scholars approached it from a linguistic view, a scientific view, a do's and don't view, and so on. The fact that the Quran is the most authenic divine book on earth gave these scholars more reasons to pursue its intrepretations on many levels. Some tried to find a single error in the many aspects of their research but they couldn't find any!
As for prophet Mohammed, you really need to read his life story. I have no doubt that what you will find about him will amaze you even if you are not a muslim.
1&2- I really think you should approach the Quran with its many aspects in mind, not just the scientific ones. Put a goal in front of you, like trying to find "anything" that makes no sense, whether it is scientifc, social, human laws, etc. Right from verse one to the last verse in the Quran, there is ALWAYS new things to learn. There is one condition for you to receive the Quran properly in your heart, make an intention to learn and to seek guidance.
I wish you the best.
December 6, 2007 11:45 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 6, 2007 11:45
Somalitrade,
Thank you for your interest in my seeing the light. I have 4 questions that will help me to discern better whether you're honestly speaking the truth which I can understand.
1. Do you share Moody's conviction that Quran among other things is a collection of scientific wisdom that was given out 1400 years before it was actually discovered? and that it is one of the proofs of Quran's divine origin?
2. If that's the case can you accompany each piece of knowledge in Moody's list with exact page number reference in the Quran so I can check it for myself?
3. What kind of homework did you do, Somalitrade, that convinced you that Quran and Mohammad are from God?
4. Did you become a believer in adult age or were you raised as a Muslim?
Thank you
December 5, 2007 7:30 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 5, 2007 19:30
Mr. Elliott:
Please allow me to intervent in the discussion between you and Moody. You wrote:
"Your #1 & #2 are cancelled by this at the end of the New Testament’s first book: “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always....” Jesus said that we Christians are to worship the Holy Trinity, in which he is the Son."
Is it not ironic that the kingpin of christianity is not found in all four books (Mathew, John, Mark, and Luke)? Amzingly, the oldest of these books does not contain your quoted statement! Yet, you can find Jesus' words to the gentile woman in all four books, Jesus said it clearly: "I am only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel". He went on telling her that "dogs should not eat of the childeren's food!", meaning she is out of the equation. He was called the king of the jews and he preached only to the Jews. He stuck to the teachings of the Torah and when asked which commandment they should follow, he pointed to the first one, "worship the only God that is there in heavens". Then you stress the sonship of god again, yet you know that Jews were called sons of God and even more interestingly were called gods as in "Ye are gods"!. This is exactly what I am talking about. You need to stop for a while and re-evaluate your beliefs because, if you execuse the words, they are unreliable and doubtful at best.
December 5, 2007 1:35 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 5, 2007 13:35
MOODY 12.5.07 / 6:36a
I must correct your mistakes & misunderstandings:
You say “muslims obey Jesus...more than Christians.” What Islam means by “Jesus” is far less than what the New Testament means, namely, that “Jesus” is our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ. Muslim interpreters cherry-pick the NT for phrases allegedly confirmatory of the Qur’an, but the spin job violates the NT’s spirit & message.
Your #1 & #2 are cancelled by this at the end of the New Testament’s first book: “make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always....” Jesus said that we Christians are to worship the Holy Trinity, in which he is the Son.
On your #4: The orant (prayer) position in the Bible was mainly standing with arms raised together. The early-Christian orant position added extended arms, in mimesis of Jesus’ Cross. Prostration was only for special occasions.
On your #5: Jesus says it’s OK to eat pig: Gospel of Mark 7.15-19, Jesus “declared all food clean.”
On your #6: Jesus turned water into wine (Gospel of John 2.7-10) & did not say (4 times!) that wine has “bad attributes.” Further, it was not Paul but the Gospel of John (2.11) which declared that this miracle was Jesus’ first.
On your #8: We Christians say Islam is wrong where it differs from the Bible: you Muslims say the Bible is wrong where it differs from the Qur’an. A standoff.
On your #9: We Christians say that in & as Jesus, God became a human being & it is blasphemous to refuse to worship the Holy Trinity—which, you Muslims claim, it is blasphemous to worship. Another standoff.
On you #10: No, we Christians are not “divided” about Jesus death on the Cross; and your saying there are “dozens of Bible verses” to the contrary (the fact being that there is not even one) evidences your dismal ignorance of the Bible, which you Muslims are not encouraged to read. Too, you show here no inkling of the Christian doctrine of the atonement, of Jesus’ voluntary vicarious suffering for the world’s sins, of God’s self-sacrifice for our salvation; indeed, you deny even the possibility.
On your #11: The Qur’an accuses Christianity of making Jesus a “partner” of God, but we Jews-Christians-Muslims are monotheists—so God has no “partner.” The anti-monotheistic notion that Jesus for Christians is a partner with God is ditheistic (worship of two gods)--a misunderstanding of the Christian doctrine of God as Holy Trinity (“tri-[u]nity” is the word coined to mean One God in Three “Persons” [two technical terms]).
I don’t mind your laying out contrasts between Islam and Christianity—but, as Sergeant Friday said, “only the facts, please.”
December 5, 2007 12:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 5, 2007 12:15
Indie:
"My kind", as you put it, isn't trying to impose anything on you. My earlier post exactly reflects that. Prophet Mohammad could not convince one of his beloved uncles to enter Islam. God gives guidance and inspiration to EACH soul. Rejection comes for different reasons. The pophet's uncle did not want to leave his tribe's tradition, even though he defended the prophet and protected him as long as he lived on this earth. I always think that Athiests are the closest to become muslims because they detached themselves from any religious dogmas, right or wrong, and they ask for proofs. The issue with Athiests is that they made their minds before they do their homework. Researching what's in the scripture is a time well spent and you are in a no-bias position that should enable you to pick what makes sense and reject the nonsense. If, after you've done your work, you still think you want to continue on your path, at least you can argue that you did your best. I did exactly what I am asking you to do and I am happy where I am. I don't have any inner struggle and all I wanted to make others feel the same. As for forcing others into Islam, as you hinted to the people of "my kind", I only have the Quran to defend me:
2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
December 5, 2007 11:32 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 5, 2007 11:32
You can close your eyes or do not accept for what ever reasons you have..
BUT YOU CAN'T DENY THAT EVERY RATIONAL INTELLIGENT LOGICAL KNOWLEDGE & SICENCE IS TESTIFYING FOR QURAN....AFTER EVERY NEXT DISCOVERY AND AWARENESS!
MODREN SCIENCE AND QURAN (ISLAMIC DIVINE BOOK)
Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (WHICH BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK. THE ONLY LOGIC IS THAT ITS FROM SOMEONE WHO IS COMMUNICATING TO A HUMAN AND KNOWS BETTER THAN HUMANS)
- For some people ONE sign is enough to believe.
- For some people 10 signs are enough.
- But some people don't come to believe even after more than 1000 miraculous signs.
Verses about:
1- Big bang theory (in a nut shell).
2- Geo spherical Ostrich egg shaped earth (spherical which is the exact shape)
3- Cosmic dust (referred more perfectly as smoke).
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Earth, sun and stars revolving on their axis and path (orbits).
8- Sun and moon have different paths (orbits).
9- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
10- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.
11- Upper thin layer of earth, which is hold by mountains as nails (bigger in size deep in earth) from shacking.
12- Perfect shape and stages of human embryo.
13- All living being made out of water.
14- All plants and even fruits have male and female atributes.
15- The exact way of plants and animals behaviour and how they communicate.
AND MANY MORE............
THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.
December 5, 2007 6:40 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 5, 2007 06:40
MUSLIMS OBEY JESUS (A.S.) AND HIS GOD OF ALL CREATURES MORE THEN CHRISTIANS:
BRINGING PROOF FROM YOUR OWN BIBLE BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN IT SO YOU NEED IT TO VARIFY, AS MUSLIMS PROOF AND WHAT WE BELIEVE IS QURAN.
Lies or Truth: Evidence speaks for it self !
1- There is not a single verse in ANY VERSION of Bible where Jesus (A.S) said, worship me OR I'm god. Instead he said,” I speak what I hear from father”, “My Father is greater than me."
2- Again word "Trinity" is not mentioned in ANY VERSION of the Bible. The closest verse to trinity that,” Father, Holy Ghost & spirit is one" is thrown out in your REVISED VERSION of Bible. As all your high priests said,” It was a concoction, fabrication, addition, a lie in the Bible, as no such verse is found in the most ancient scriptures".
So please ask your own priests who is lying and fabricating??????
3-We Muslims FOLLOW more in Jesus (A.S) commandments then you Christians:
(You say, you love Jesus (A.S.), but you disobey his every commandment).
4-From Adam to Jesus (PBUT) MENTIONED IN YOUR BIBLE, all prophets when prayed to God, they prostrated like we Muslims.
Do you follow Jesus, how to pray?
5- In ALL Bibles more than 3 times Jesus said swine-pig is forbidden to eat. We Muslims follow him, but you Christians follow PAUL and disobey Jesus (A.S.) commandments.
6- More than 4 occasions in ALL Bibles Jesus (A.S) told wine has bad attributes on the humans. But Paul quotes the "FIRST MIRACLE OF JESUS" and since then wine is flowing like water in Christendom and NOT AT ALL in Muslimdom. (Bible said water tasted like wine and never said turned into wine).
7- Jesus said," I came to keep all the commandments of the God and not to break them". But you Christians broke EACH AND EVERY of them.
Hale-aluu-Yaa to Church, Paul, Mathew, John and Luke!!!!!
8-According to Christian Bible first miracle of Jesus (A.S.) was turning water taste like wine and recovering the shortage in the gathering. But according to Quran the first miracle of Jesus was talking to Jews when he was infant in his mother’s arms.
When after birth, Mary came:
According to the BIBLE she told the Jews that she hear voices and then had a child birth. Do you believe your daughter or sister, if she come and tell you she had birth after hearing voices? Do you think when “IF” Mary had told that to the Jews, they would have believed her???
But Quran tells that the Jews accused her, she knows that Jesus (A.S) was the miraculous birth. So she told the Jews ask the infant. And miraculously Jesus (A.S) talked to them and told them that I’m the messenger from God, therefore be nice and respectful to my mother as she is among the highest of the pious. Quran gives highest respect to Mary, even there is a complete chapter by her name in Quran. You have chapters named by Mathew, Luke, John or lying Paul and many others but not a single by his mothers name Mary.
Which version would you like to tell to your children, HEARING VOICES AND GETTING PRAGNANT or MIRACULOUS TALK????
9-Christians says Jesus (A.S) was the BEGOTTEN SON. What are you trying to apply here? So what you are trying to put in all the humans throat is that the All Mighty God Who made every thing miraculously from Adam to every thing of this world needs to come done to seed…. (God forgive us for such satanic thinking). Allah tells in Quran that when He wants to do some thing, He just says and it happens. He begets not nor He begotten. Human miracles are not the proof of any kind of divinity. Jesus (A.S) was the prophet like all other prophets with miracles.
10-Christians says Jesus (A.S) get crucified for there sins. And a son of god (not mentioned any where in the Bible he himself never said that). And dozens of Bible verses proving that he was not died through crucifixion. You Christians are also divided about it.
So basically what you are making to swallow us (the whole human race) is that the whole nation rape, kill and do bad atrocities and when brought for justice there King hang his own son instead of punishing them. IT DOES REALLY MAKE SENSE! Hale- alu- Yaa PAUL and the greatest deceiving of the human history.
11- Jesus says “ He is jealous God only pray to Him”. But Christians are eager to make partner to Him. We Muslims only pray to God and don’t make any partners to Him.
So I am asking you a question:
Next time does Jesus (A.S) come to the house of people who are obeying his commandments OR who are TOTALLY disobeying his commandments???
December 5, 2007 6:36 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 5, 2007 06:36
Or was that going back to the 'Wandering genitals' thing.
Can't beat that. :)
December 5, 2007 12:20 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 5, 2007 00:20
Really. Look out: Now the God Of The Universe has a problem with *silly* We're *really* F'ed *now.*
Of this 'sin,' I plead guilty. Got your silly right here, spud. :)
December 5, 2007 12:19 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 5, 2007 00:19
" Matthew Joseph:
1But know this, that in the last days grievous times shall come. "
I think someone has a ready quote from some millenia BCE about how surely the end of the end of the world was at hand, Matthew.
Your world is *always* ending. I'm not sure you'd have any clue what to *do* if it *wasn't* ending.
Which is basically the track record.
Do you want to live?
It does take some effort, and thinking the world ends with you is easier, but, really.
"3:6For of these are they that creep into houses, and take captive silly women laden with sins, "
Great. Keep me up all night, why don't you. I'll have you know that few can rival *my* silliness, and now you're talking about more stalkers than I already dealt with. What's this? :)
Gods. You know, there's enough people out there talking about the nasty things they either want to do to me or are 'merciful' for *not* doing quite so much to me over *sins,* and now you book-people are doing home-invasions against the *silly?*
Mother of Punk, what's a girl to do in your world?
*ahem* Btw, the guys who wrote that thought the world was coming to an end, immediately, too.
Go figure.
It was a long time ago, but maybe you can understand why they were talking all bad trip and all. :)
December 5, 2007 12:13 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 5, 2007 00:13
1But know this, that in the last days grievous times shall come. 3:2For men shall be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, railers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3:3without natural affection, implacable, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, no lovers of good, 3:4traitors, headstrong, puffed up, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God; 3:5holding a form of godliness, but having denied the power therefore. From these also turn away. 3:6For of these are they that creep into houses, and take captive silly women laden with sins, led away by divers lusts, 3:7ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 3:8And even as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also withstand the truth. Men corrupted in mind, reprobate concerning the faith. 3:9But they shall proceed no further. For their folly shall be evident unto all men, as theirs also came to be. 3:10But thou didst follow my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, patience, 3:11persecutions, sufferings. What things befell me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. 3:12Yea, and all that would live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 3:13But evil men and impostors shall wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 3:14But abide thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them. 3:15And that from a babe thou hast known the sacred writings which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 3:16Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. 3:17That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.
God Bless and Peace Always. Matthew
December 4, 2007 10:11 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 22:11
Oh, thank you, Somalitrade, for choosing that quote from the Quran as it’s supposed to show your gracious intentions with the unbeliever like myself. But you can skip the consequences part for my non-belief as I already know of them: hell and fire and “draughts of boiling fluids”, since it’s said:
8.14. Thus (will it be said): "Taste ye then of the (punishment): for those who resist Allah, is the penalty of the Fire." 8.55. For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.
So first of all you leave me puzzled over the sincerity of your intentions. Because if I persist in rejecting Allah can I really go around in plain sight unpunished even though I am a living epitome of the offense against Islam? I have my doubts as it is also said:
4.76. Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan. 4.101. For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.
So let me inform you in honesty of my plans with you and your kind. I intend to “fight” mentally (as you put it) the believers of all stripes be that religious or secular. I intend to not let your kind inherit the Earth as I think this planet is mine not less than yours. That is if we, after we present our best arguments, do not find a common ground then neither your understanding of what shall be a universal law of good for all men nor mine shall govern. In other words, we’ll have no choice in the end but leave each other alone and part our ways. At best our dealings with each other will be strictly economic.
But if some of your kind wants his beliefs to still be everybody’s law and work to impose it then we’ll fight not mentally but physically until one of us kills the other. It is a possibility as I know how serious your beliefs are in and for your life. But so are mine. And I want you to know that I am not less than your kind prepared to fight and die for my beliefs.
That said, let’s get back to business of mental persuasion.
What I am also puzzled about is this:
Since Allah as you believe is the creator of all things and men then he is responsible for hardening my heart so that I don’t believe in him. And I am telling you - since I was once a believer but then rejected god not only because of no evidence but as an evil concept that enslaves human minds – that you can skip your prescribed role to “Invite (me) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching” and think of me simply as an un-chosen one.
Why did your “Lord” chose you to believe and be righteous and good man and chose me not to believe and be wicked and evil? Who knows. Maybe it’s just his (evil, in my opinion) way to show YOU his power. Since I won’t listen to your beautiful preaching what’s left for you now is only to pray to Allah that he really have mercy on me and change my ways or else - kill me.
Wait. There is another choice. If you have any human compassion, any empathy whatsoever to my horrible plight created by Allah how about that YOU, Somalitrade, show mercy on me?
How about revolting against Him, standing up for your fellow mortal whose mind is so irreversibly blinded? How about telling Him that it is cruel not to soften my heart, not to show me His power, hide from me and instead convincing me that He IS NOT just ‘because He CAN? How about telling Allah that your heart grieves so badly for me that you, Somalitrade, will reject Him if He doesn’t end this centuries old merciless show, if He doesn’t bring me and in fact ALL the humans to Allah now?!
But… I know and you know that you’ll pay the price for it…
Or will you?...
Or too afraid of losing your spot in the Heavenly Caribbean?
December 4, 2007 6:08 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 18:08
adding to Terra's truth
in Holland and Germany and Scandanavia, where they don't count on the Abstinence only nonsense and have birth control information and "equipment" regularly available
Abortion is much lower than in the US
and STDs are ASTOUNDINGLY lower.
the Morality of Abstinence only is that it leads to more abortions, and more STDS, many more.
what kind of morality is that? Wishful morality, for one. trait.
the US has the highest abortion rate and the highest STD rate among the highly developed countries. and homicide rate. and infant mortality rate. and child poverty rate.
a Christian country, that's for sure.
December 4, 2007 5:34 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 17:34
AEBA
6 out of 10 women who have abortions are already mothers..finances are the biggest reason for the abortions. As the economy for all the people get better, abortions go down.
From the 1990's to 2003 the rate of abortion was going down...maybe due to contreception, it seems that since 2003 there has been a rise, even though there are less clinics who do abortions.
There were 27% less teen pregnancies during the years 1990-2000. This during the time when there were was better sex education.
Now there is abstanance only being taught and I was informed that 40% of the girls here in the bible belt are leaving school because of being pregnant. I was also informed by a health worker that in a Colledge here ( a good one) that STD's and HIV are60 to 75%.
horrible..
This has nothing to do with god..it has to do with those teachers and schools being as conservative as possible so that they do not get in trouble with the parents and faith based groups. For every known case of HIV there are five that is unknown...and those are majority young folks under the age of 25. Why are they taking their lives in their hands...because of stupid, god pushing moralizeing dumb@$$es that lie about facts. Just say NO has worked so well with drugs...hasn't it?
Tell the truth, teach the kids to respect themselves and their partners, and stop moralizeing, it's a health issue!
terra
December 4, 2007 4:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 16:29
Sex outside of marriage has no redeeming social value, converesly it creates a lot of problems i.e. You can get AIDS, hundreds thousands in this country have died from it, You can get sexual diseases from it, hundreds have died from it, You can cause an out of wedlock pregnancy from it,as a result we have a million abortions a year and have millions of single parent families, the largest cause of poverty and kids with no fathers and all the associated problems, you can destroy families, yourself, your partner and societie's recognition of what is right and wrong with it. Maybe that is why Christ condemed fornification.
December 4, 2007 12:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 12:46
Sex outside of marriage has no redeeming social value, converesly it creates a lot of problems i.e. You can get AIDS, hundreds thousands in this country have died from it, You can get sexual diseases from it, hundreds have died from it, You can cause an out of wedlock pregnancy from it,as a result we have a million abortions a year and have millions of single parent families, the largest cause of poverty and kids with no fathers and all the associated problems, you can destroy families, yourself, your partner and societie's recognition of what is right and wrong with it. Maybe that is why Christ condemed fornification.
December 4, 2007 12:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 12:46
Indie:
There is one common rule in Islam when reasoning with non-muslims. This rule is plainly clear in the holy Quran:
16:125 Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.
A muslim role is not to force others into Islam, but rather carry the message and explain it to them. After that, it is upto them. It is also important for a muslim to explain the consequences, being good or bad, of their actions. A muslim will do the same with an athiest.
December 4, 2007 10:33 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 10:33
Surely not having sex outside marriage is more about not having kids outside marriage rather than not having love outside marriage, otherwise people would never get married in the first place. Apart from that, frustrated sexual energies may sublimate into spiritual energies, so that's one and the same potential.
December 4, 2007 10:07 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 10:07
it very simple obedience. It will my thoughts and flesh under God will. Whenever we do our own things well you see what happen. God give choices .but we cannot choose the results.
December 4, 2007 4:23 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 04:23
it very simple obedience. It will my thoughts and flesh under God will. Whenever we do our own things well you see what happen. God give choices .but we cannot choose the results.
December 4, 2007 4:23 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 04:23
I would like to begin with saying that although your opinions are very Christianly biased, and thus contradictory to my general nature, that they are pretty valid. Sometimes it takes a strong conservative to “overstate” something in order to even bring it back to a middle ground.
The issues that I have tend to revolve around assertions stated in your intro section. The conclusions seem to me to be pretty sound in both their ideas and practicality/applicability to life (as in the forgiveness matter). First, you assert that America is “obsessed with sex”. I would like to say that America is far form the extreme side of sex obsessed, but that the problem stems from the religious roots in which most of us were brought up. In this case religion has created the problem. It has created this by presenting us with a taboo. When a child is told not to touch the stove, he wants to do so anyway. But upon breaking this rule, he gets hurt, thus learning the lesson. When regarding sex, there is no immediate, visible, or even understandable adverse experience. I say all this under a presumption of safe, consensual sex. So we are brought up thinking that something is not only bad, but also a big deal. It makes it that much more intoxicating. It is the exact same thing with underage drinking. As a youth we are told that this is bad, and a big deal… until one reaches a certain age. Now when one is an adult and looks back on this it is an understandable position, but as a kid looking forward, it is a hypocritical and preposterous position. If we look at our European counter parts they have embraced sex. It is natural. It is a part of who we are. We cannot erase the desire without erasing part of our humanity. In Europe, sex is a normal part of life, and there is no “obsession” with it because it is not a taboo, and is not hypocritically taken away until “one is of age”. I believe that its is this extreme opinion, that say “sex has to be experienced under this set of constraints” that leads us to take it to far and to extremes. If it is a normal part of life and didn’t have a forbidden fruit context, many issues would disappear and it would become more middle ground.
I also believe that this issue with sex is linked but not causative of consumerism. In fact the degradation of religion could be just as much to blame. As a culture, we have become sinners on Sat. and saints for and hour on Sun. Religion as a whole has become lax in its teachings and too lenient on its congregation. People no longer are pushed to study and read and discover form themselves, rather they come to church for an hour and a half and listen to the pastor as if it were a TV show, and thus doesn’t apply to life. I believe that it has been this general slipping of American values based on making the most of what we have, in religion, school, family life, and life in general that has led to this sad state of consumerism.
I did enjoy reading you opinion and it had some interesting points, I think that u should take this view on sex scandal and apply it to a reflection on the masses who watch. You addressed cheating on a national and highly public level, but most of us will never achieve that notoriety and are thus obsessed with it. Perhaps if you were able to bring it down to earth people might learn form it, instead of saying that “it doesn’t apply to me”.
December 4, 2007 3:42 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 03:42
Lepi,
Congratulations on finding very sober, reasonable, respectful of nature, feet-on-the-ground, hence truly loving enlightenment tools for your daughter.
I disagree with your take on monogamy but more generally I love your smarts about life.
December 4, 2007 3:23 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 03:23
somalitrade:
**Lepidopteryx:
- Are you saying that you never got drunk and did some "silly" stuff? Most of the people who get killed in drunk driving accidents are those who drink responsibly! Ironic!**
No, I'm not saying that I've never gotten drunk and done silly stuff. I can say that I have never harmed anything other than my own dignity while drunk. I'm saying that the fact that SOMETIMES people get drunk and do silly or even dangerous things is no more reason to prohibit alcohol than the fact that sometimes people do silly or even dangerous things due to caffeine poisoning is to prohibit coffee.
**- Religions don't stretch paychecks. Islam, at least, shows you how to be thankful and how to spend it in a way that helps you, your family, and others in the society.**
And I have it on good authority that religion is not needed in order to learn budgeting skills.
**- Teaching kids patients and endurance starts at early age, not when you start seeing problematic behavior.**
Agreed. Which is why I started teaching her what her parts were and how they worked as soon as she wa old enough to ask questions about them. by the time she was five, she knew what a penis was, what a vagina was, and had a rudimetnary understanding of where babies came from that had nothing to do with storks, cabbage patches, or angels. When she had her first period at age nine, she knew exactly what was happening to her, and she and I went out and celebrated. And by the time her sex drive began to kick in, she knew what those feelings were about, she knew a few effective ways to masturbate, and she knew how to prevent STD's and pregnancy if and when she decided to have sex with someone other than a fantasy partner.
December 3, 2007 10:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 22:05
DW
I don't believe in Satan or the divinity of Jesus.
I believe in morality.
Most adulterous relationships are probably immoral. But morality is not quite as simplistic as some believers make it out to be.
And you won't convince me by citing Satan or Jesus.
December 3, 2007 10:03 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 22:03
Somalitrade,
The post above signed Anonymous about the dangers of religion and other speculative thinking with regards to sex issues was from me.
I understand your point, thank you. But I didn't speak of alcoholics and drug addicts who of course can (or cannot) be helped and of adulterous people in marriage who can (or cannot) be reasoned.
I was talking of people who use drugs, drink, have multiple sexual encounters or live in polyamorous or say polyandrous families, or who are like myself are non-believers and atheists but who lead normal lives otherwise and don't bother anybody? What do you do about them?
What does it mean that atheists "need to be mentally confronted head on", for example?
December 3, 2007 6:20 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 18:20
SW:
"Jesus paid the bill, but we are still to be responsible stewards of the utility."
I thought that the "bigger the sin, the greater the redemption!". Please, for the sake of goodness and true stewardship, stop the philosophy lines and deal with the realities. The truth is Jesus paid no bill and you wish he did. You will be judged for every sin you made and will make!
"The system of self control, the system of moral values, the system of respect for the institution of marriage..."
Where you find these values in the bible? The old testament is full of anti-marriage-values! In the new testament, Jesus shot off all the taps! Marry one, if you look to another woman you commit adultary! There is no ESCAPE!
"How do you control the drinking masses? This statement is the epitome of mankinds problems. Out of control. Doesnt want to be in control. Control is bad. Control is not fun. Control limits me."
Perhaps you never heard about that religion, called Islam!
December 3, 2007 6:09 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 18:09
>>1. Why are you concerned about this being a sin or not? I thought that Jesus already paid the bill.
Jesus paid the bill, but we are still to be responsible stewards of the utility. And this worlds view of sex ever increasingly does not equal responsibility.
>>2. What system does christianity has that ensures the virginity of men and women in society? I mean a realistic system, not just abstaining from having sex, say when kids hit their teenage time!
The system of self control, the system of moral values, the system of respect for the institution of marriage...all which used to be more prevalent until the likes of Hefner, Flynt, et. al. came along. Much more to it than that..but - thats the gist of it in our most recent times.
>>3. With alcohol permitted and the christians always boasting that the first miracle of Jesus is turning water into wine, how do you control the drinking masses from having half-conscious inter-course which leads to millions of abortions a year?
How do you control the drinking masses? This statement is the epitome of mankinds problems. Out of control. Doesnt want to be in control. Control is bad. Control is not fun. Control limits me.
They wanted more, more, more freedoms in Rome.
Greek socities were filled with scholars..but not scholarly enough to hold a society together.
And we see it again...the very reason why this country is in a moral free fall. Time will tell if we turn it around.
December 3, 2007 5:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 17:55
Indie:
Every problem you mentioned has its root in societies where great stress (financial, emotional, political, ..) is put on the people. These are very tough times relative to a few centuries ago. Contrary to the assumption that the first order in Islam is to get rid of these people, Islam actually urge muslims to reason with these people. Some need emotional support (such as drug addicts and drinkers), some need financial support, and some need to be mentally confronted head on (like athiests). Islam provides clear and un-contradictory paths to all these issues that would meet at the end to build a good social behavior.
A story that I always like to tell is one where I was visiting a muslim country. I was looking down from a balcony, and I saw a poor man who works in moving scraps of metal on a small wooden cart driven by a mule. It was over 45 degrees celcius. The man, apparently thirsty, went to a wter tap on the side of the street and took a bucket with him. He drank from the tap, then he put some water in the bucket. He took the bucket to the mule to let it drink. When the mule finished drinking, there was some water left in the bucket and i thought that the man will just throw it away on the street. Instead, he crossed the street carrying the bucket and threw the rest of the water at the root of a tree.
I thought, what a civilized individual!!! He felt thirsty and figured that the animal is thirsy as well. He didn't want to waste the water and provided the water to another creature (the tree). That man prbably doesn't know how to read or write, but what kind of values did he learn in that society that made him, inspite of his apparent need, is willing to give and not to feel deprived! Islam taught these people how to feel content for what they have and be responsible regardless where they are in the society.
December 3, 2007 5:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 17:25
Henry James:
Interesting comments.
>>Remember David and Bathsheba.
Yes. And sadly, yet not unexpectedly, they suffered great loss due to their adulterous affair. To clarify 'not unexpectedly' - seems that there was a post on another commentors thread on this subject that basically questioned..'whats the big deal' regarding this particular subject. This is truly a 'head in the sand' mentality.
Without the marriage commitment between a man and a woman, the unit known as family breaks down first, then community, then society as a whole. It is a moral absolute just as 1 + 1 = 2 is a mathematical absolute.
>>That said, religion often distorts and perverts people's attitude towards sex, which is a natural if volatile thing. Many religious teachings make people so neurotic about sex that they can't integrate sex into the rest of their relationship without Jesus or Satan getting in the way of the personal connection, even within marrieage.
I must respectfully disagree. People such as Hefner and Flynt distorted and perverted peoples attitudes towards sex. Sadly, they were only the beginning. No neurosis in God's view of sex. It was made for marriage. As we have seen in the last half century...mans perversion of it has and is taking its toll. You were half right. Satan has gotten in the way...but Jesus would not have stood for what He would have seen today.
December 3, 2007 5:21 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 17:21
Lepidopteryx:
- Are you saying that you never got drunk and did some "silly" stuff? Most of the people who get killed in drunk driving accidents are those who drink responsibly! Ironic!
- Religions don't stretch paychecks. Islam, at least, shows you how to be thankful and how to spend it in a way that helps you, your family, and others in the society.
- Teaching kids patients and endurance starts at early age, not when you start seeing problematic behavior.
December 3, 2007 4:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 16:52
Somalitrade,
Your Islamic ways are crystal clear. You can live your ways fine. But there are polyamorous and homosexual families, drinkers, drug users, atheists etc. What do you do about it?
December 3, 2007 4:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 16:39
Somalitrade:
**You need to:
- Prohibits the consumption of alcohol**
Why? Not everyone who drinks commits stupid or violent acts as a result. In fact, I'd venture to say that most people who drink do so responsibly. Prohibiting anyone fromconsuming alcohol just ecause some people use it irresponsibly is like prohibiting sugar because some diabetics binge on sweets, get behind the wheel, pass out, and hurt or kill someone.
**- Raise the spiritual level of people to help them face the daily stress that comes from financial and emotional issues**
I have yet to find a religion that stretches my paycheck.
**- Raise awareness in the society about the importance of early marriage as a way to protect the new generation from falling into adultary**
My daughter started going through puberty at the age of 9. Surely you don't think we should hae married her off then. Surely you don't advocate people getting married before they've even finished high school. My daughter is 17, and she and her boyfriend are tossing around the idea of marriage. I told them that I would prefer that they live together for at least a year before getting married. It is possible to love someone dearly, yet not be able to tolerate living with them day in and day out. If that's going to be the case with them, I'd rather they find out while it's possible to simply gather their things and go, rather than involve lawyers and judges.
**- Teach your kids patience and endurance, rather than rather than greed and selfishness.**
I taught my daughter why it was best to put off sex until she was an adult. I also taught her about contraceptives.
December 3, 2007 4:10 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 16:10
Mr. Elliot:
I have a lot to say (in response to your post) that might upset you because I do believe that christians have completely lost their way, but you seem like a decent man, so I will be brief.
1. Why are you concerned about this being a sin or not? I thought that Jesus already paid the bill.
2. What system does christianity has that ensures the virginity of men and women in society? I mean a realistic system, not just abstaining from having sex, say when kids hit their teenage time!
3. With alcohol permitted and the christians always boasting that the first miracle of Jesus is turning water into wine, how do you control the drinking masses from having half-conscious inter-course which leads to millions of abortions a year?
The inconsistencies in the christian society are overwhelming and it is not because Jesus said something wrong, but because he said the right things to the right people at the right time. Afterall, Jesus came ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and his message ended there as well. The Jews needed a hard-liner and Jesus was what they needed.
Jesus promised of another prophet who will come and give answers to all your problems. Jesus never asked you or anyone to follow his doctorine because it was intended for a limited number of people and a limited time. You need a system that fulfills your hopes and answers your three questions above. You need to:
- Prohibits the consumption of alcohol
- Raise the spiritual level of people to help them face the daily stress that comes from financial and emotional issues
- Raise awareness in the society about the importance of early marriage as a way to protect the new generation from falling into adultary
- Teach your kids patience and endurance, rather than rather than greed and selfishness.
Without you saying it, you seem to like the Islamic way of life....
December 3, 2007 3:40 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 15:40
As a non-believer and a skeptic I have a range of only negative emotions towards religious or any other presumptuous judgments about sex - from anger to sadness.
Religion perverts. Paganplace hit the nail here, didn't she: "... if I'd remained a 'virgin' till the day I got raped".
Talking about God's mysterious playful ways: he commands you to stay a virgin until married and then sends a rapist your way! If the system doesn't disgust you stay away from me. We will never make friends.
Paganpalce is also absolutely right about the dark meaning of the word "lust" in your head.
The important question always, always and always in anything in life is how we know of what we claim is right or wrong?
How do we know, what evidence do we have that lust is bad in and of itself? None. Just like we pass no judgment on our sense of hunger.
It's only when you obtained additional, external to your desire reason through faith in (god, objective love, the right one, the monogamy) that judges your lust as dark, sinful, abnormal that invades your psychology, your life and makes you feel guilty, not quite normal, not a good person. Your belief in unseen, unsupported objective entities creates your psychosis, a self-imposed stress, a personality split.
Dangerous and stupid!
December 3, 2007 2:16 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 14:16
Gods, Lepi, some folks seem to have a distorted sense of what a story is, I guess.
December 1, 2007 3:07 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 1, 2007 15:07
I'm still trying to figure out why having played the chaste St. Joan made Ingrid Bergman's affair worse. It's called "Acting" for a reason - you
re ACTING like someone or something you aren't. It has nothing to do with the reality of your life.
I perform in community theatre - I've played a Jewish woman, a fanatical evangelical Christian (I'm Pagan), a lesbian (I'm straight), a secretary (I can't type worth a damn), and a maid (I don't do windows, and at my house "Dust" tends to more of a noun than a verb).
A few years back, one of the fundamentalist groups got all upset because the actor playing the role of some missionary in a bio-pic was not only openly gay, but a BGLT rights activist. So what? The important question is not "How closely do the actor's life and values parallel those of the character?" but rather "Can s/he act?"
December 1, 2007 9:56 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 1, 2007 09:56
"He was not lying when he said, “I didn’t have sex with that woman” (in his correct Southern Baptist sense, “sex” meant heterosexual intercourse)"
Just a reminder for readers-
It may not pass for Southern Baptist sex- but it is a risk..
"The sexually transmitted virus that causes cervical cancer also sharply increases the risk of certain types of throat cancer among people infected through oral sex, according to a study being published today."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/09/AR2007050902322.html?nav=rss_print/asection
November 30, 2007 12:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 30, 2007 12:57
"I assume they would also be captioned: "Not shown actual size" or "Enlarged to show detail"
HA! Don't forget "Serving Suggestion"!
November 30, 2007 9:44 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 30, 2007 09:44
Paganplace:
**But I got a laugh out of the 'wandering genitals' phrase.
I can just imagine the pictures on a milk carton.
"Lost:"**
I assume they would also be captioned: "Not shown actual size" or "Enlarged to show detail"
November 30, 2007 7:58 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 30, 2007 07:58
Gaby:
I would include employer-employee in the list of abusive, and therefore, disallowed situations. If someone is consenting, even willingly, but the other person is in a position of authority, IMO, it's a form of coercion, even if it's unconscious.
Personally, I've always avoided getting involved with co-workers, even if there were no authority issues, simply because if the situation did sour, it could make for 40 hours of extreme awkwardness every week. But I have no objection to my other co-workers daing if they so choose. But I think that's why a lot of employers have prohibitons agaisnt employee "fraternization."
November 30, 2007 7:52 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 30, 2007 07:52
But I got a laugh out of the 'wandering genitals' phrase.
I can just imagine the pictures on a milk carton.
"Lost:"
Never mind. :)
November 30, 2007 2:58 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 30, 2007 02:58
Ok... The Reverend is describing his spiritual practice. However, I'd suggest he consider that the 'numinous' and the 'sexual' aren't separate and opposed in the hearts and minds of everyone.
Thus the conditions by which he defines certain sex as 'sin' ...mean that imposing this religious practice on others is ...dare I say... Unamerican.
A lot of Christians like to use the words 'Lust' and 'Titillation' when describing what they imagine others are thinking or feeling.
I don't actually understand what these words *mean* (and I consider myself something of a wordsmith) ...unless in terms of 'A judgmental label for a thought about a hypothetical feeling probably someone else is having.'
The very words seem displaced from what sexuality *is*. The word 'Lust' seems full of shame and irresponsibility of itself. 'Titillation' seems to be about vicarious imaginings.
I don't see this thing about being a 'virgin' having anything to do with how deeply-connected one is to a partner, ...if this were so, I'd hardly see what it'd have done for my current partner, or my partner of the time, or the Gods, for that matter, if I'd remained a 'virgin' till the day I got raped.
Seriously. I'm glad I *knew* that wasn't what 'sex' was, or something thought I 'had:'
this 'thing' called 'virginity' that 'validated' my love and connection with other people...
Cause then some man who thought I needed to learn about his penis-power could have taken something irreplaceable from me.
Which seems to be part of the dark side of these ideas about 'sin' and 'purity' and 'sanctimony about virginity.'
Forget about it. It's not books or mechanical actions or ceremonies that define what's good and real and loving and sacred.
It's what the people involved bring to it.
"Lust." "Titillation." What the Hel are those words supposed to mean?
November 30, 2007 2:55 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 30, 2007 02:55
Dr Elliot
While I agree with Norrie and Lepi,
I must say that I respect this post of yours, even if I have a different point of view on most of your conclusions.
People should be free, as you are, to confine their sexual relations to marriage.
Sexual relations is surely a moral matter, as Lepi and Norrie state. Many of us don't think that marriage defines whether it is moral or immoral, but you stated your reasons in a respectful and pretty non-judgmental way.
I must say that I think you OVER state the emphasis placed on sex in American society. I suspect that our sexual drives are innately strong enough that people have concentrated on sex in roughly equal measure throughout history.
Remember David and Bathsheba.
That said, religion often distorts and perverts people's attitude towards sex, which is a natural if volatile thing. Many religious teachings make people so neurotic about sex that they can't integrate sex into the rest of their relationship without Jesus or Satan getting in the way of the personal connection, even within marriage.
November 29, 2007 9:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 29, 2007 21:27
Well, Norrie and Lepi, I can't quite agree. It may not be sinful, but it may certainly be unethical and maybe even unlawful. Having consensual sex in the workplace, depending on who is boinking whom, can most certainly create all kind of havoc.
A doctor, pastor, or counselor having consensual sex with one their patients, parishoners, or clients would definitely be considered unethical if not unlawful.
November 29, 2007 5:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 29, 2007 17:57
I see you can and do speak for yourself, "virginal."
What kind of a world would there be if everyone was just like you? Have you ever given that any thought between your unrealized sexual desires?
November 29, 2007 12:43 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 29, 2007 12:43
I am also in agreement with the two commenters, above.
Orthodox Christian taboos and restrictions regarding sex are wrong, and based on ignorance. If that makes me an apostate, then, I would ask, how do I re-capture my ignorance, once I have knowledge? I do not know how to do that, nor do I see that as a desirable goal. I do not think that the Bible should be used as a weapon to make people unhappy and ruin their lives.
November 29, 2007 11:09 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 29, 2007 11:09
Norrie:
That's the way I see it.
Any mutually agreed on sexual behavior among consenting adults is fine. Doesn't matter how many, doesn't matter what gender(s), doesn't matter what organs, orifices, or toys are employed. As long as all involved agree and are eligible to enter into such an agreement, it's all good.
No consent - it's not sex, it's rape. It's abuse.
Not an adult - it's not sex, it's rape. It's abuse.
If you've made a promise of monogamy, then you forfeit your right to consent with anyone else.
November 29, 2007 10:42 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 29, 2007 10:42
Let's consider the possibility that no consensual sexual activity can be considered sinful unless it involves some sort of abuse by one partner toward the other in the course of the activity.
And, if abuse does take place, the sin is really in the abuse, not the sex.
What do you think, O you posters?
November 29, 2007 10:06 AM | Report Offensive Comments