All Comments (112)

The first thing of his that I recall reading was the short story "Harrison Bergeron" when I was in sixth grade. I wept at the end.
Shortly after that, I found Breakfast of Champions in the school library. I didn't get the whole thing at that age, but I got enough to know that I was reading the work of a genius. From there, I was hooked.

I "discovered" him in college, when I took a modern lit. class. I was skeptical of the "pulp fiction" type paperbacks I had to buy for that class, but was very much surprised as we got into his works. He really affected me with his method of storytelling. Total inspiration...and proof that one cannot judge a book by its cover.

WARNING: COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC POST!

Danny,
I had the pleasure of seeing/hearing him in person many years ago at LSU. It was one of the most memorable nights of my life. I had brought my copy of Breakfast of Champions with me, hoping for the chance to get it signed, but alas, it was not to be. He was extremely agitated and somewhat surly backstage and ran everyone off. The next day, the papers announced that he had collapsed the night before in his hotel room and been hospitalized for exhaustion.

I have, however been fortunate enough to have my copy of Dandelion Wine autographed by Ray Bradbury and my copy of Schindler's List autographed by Thomas Kenealy - I met both of them at SLU literary conventions.

I meant Slaughterhouse-Five...I don't know what's wrong with me this morning.

Lepidopteryx,

Breakfast of Champions was (and is) one of my favorite books of all time! Which, by the way, is the left-over content from Slaughter House Five (as I understand it).

Danny:

I miss Vonnegut. He was my gneration's Twain.

lepidopteryx,

NICE Vonnegut reference! Love him!

"Two practical matters:

1 Medical institutions should accommodate the consciences of particular physicians, for both medical efficiency and religious freedom.

2 As in America we have the mutual freedom of "church and state," we should have also the mutual freedom of medicine and law. Government should stay out of doctors' offices and operating rooms.
"

Does anyone *really* want to live in a place where the above would be true? Should doctors be allowed to do *anything* with absolutely no government over-site?

With respect to (1), if a doctor refuses to operate on people of color, or Jews -- should the medical institutions attempt to accommodate those desires?

With respect to (2), if a doctor wants to employ voodoo or some other experimentation on human subjects should the state refuse to become involved?

The practice of medicine by doctors should be as secular as the practice of law by policemen -- the injection of religious behavior serves no public purpose.

Vie:

I have a feeling that CS is left alone a lot of the time.
But when s/he attacks, s/he should expect a defense to be mounted.

Everybody:
Leave Canyon alone. He or she is obviously an individual of very weak and tenuous faith who needs to speak loudly and forcefully to reasuure himself. Without a big crowd of people to agree with him he might not be safely in the majority. (Is it his tone that makes us all assume Canyon is male?)

RT:

I don't see your finding common elements between our beliefs as trying to twist me into confessing Christianity. I have said before that I find wisdom in your faith - I just don't buy the whole package, and I do see some things differently. I certainly don't think I have an exclusive claim on communion with the Divine, whatever name you wish to call it by. It's good to find common ground, no?

If it works for you, groovy.

Namaste.

I have also heard it recently referred to as 'Red Tea" but tchnically speaking it is not tea at all.

I think it is made from bark... which makes me want to call it "bark juice"

-RT

Lep (regarding your 4:34 PM Aug. 15th): When you say "Whole" (with a capital W...) and similarly "Deity" and "Divine" ... that's the sense in which I use the word God.

When you say "manifestations" and "multiple forms of deity" I would (as a Christian) use words like "glory of God" and "spiritual gifts" and "Living God" and other ways to talk about how God can be seen as working in the world.

When you say "I see it more as a composite that is more than the sum of its parts" That's like the essence of the trinity and communion ... a mysterious ability of the divine to be united with "fleshly" substance and yet still be both worldly and divine. ... hmm... ok this makes me want to find the exact words (googled John 17) ok here it is: "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one" ... even the idea of the virgin birth expresses the idea that the Holy Spirit (the essence of God) was able to be fully united with a Human being in the form of the Virgin Mary. I understand the skepticism there, but one of the ways that people view the Virgin Mary claim is seeing in this claim the explanation of how the Divine and the Mundane can be inseparably united.

I understand that you may see my post here as an attempt to twist your words into confessing Christianity, but I would say I am instead trying to further the dialogue by comparing how you say you see things using athe traditional Christian frame of reference and language I am familiar with. Feel free to point out places if I have interpreted something of your words incorrectly. But it does seem to me that your notion of Christians believing in an "out there not here" God is somewhat ... uhh... not accurate. ... IMHO

Peace,
RT

RT:

Oops. I thought at first you were saying to mix half Chomomile and half rooibos.

My bad. I've never tried rooibos with half and half either - just a drop of honey.

RT:
Thanks for the idea - I love rooibos. I've never tried mixing it with chamomile. Sounds great, though.

Lep: I like Chamomile tea as well, but if you really want someone to chill out I would have you recommend Rooibos... add some 1/2 + 1/2 and it is delish!

-RT

CS:
Berkowitz can worship any god he wants, as long as they keep his criminally insane ass locked up.

Canyon-

Let us pray:

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace.
Where there is hatred, let me sow love,
Where there is injury, pardon
Where there is doubt, faith,
Where there is despair, hope,
Where there is darkness, light,
Where there is sadness, joy.

O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much
seek to be consoled as to console,
not so much to be understood as to understand,
not so much to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
it is in dying that we awake to eternal life.

Or perhaps you would prefer this:

Where there is charity and wisdom, there is neither fear nor ignorance.
Where there is patience and humility, there is neither anger nor vexation.
Where there is poverty and joy, there is neither greed nor avarice.
Where there is peace and meditation, there is neither anxiety nor doubt.

Blessed Be.

Canyon:
Dude, you need to calm down before you blow a gasket. I suggest a cup of chamomile tea. Maybe several cups. Maybe you should bathe in it.

At the risk of repeating myself, I hate no one, including your god. Hating someone else gives them entirely too much power over me.

**"Punishment of descendents for the sins of ancestors." - An atheist will most likely have atheist babies, a muslim will have muslim babies, a pagan, pagan babies...all will go to Hell, not because of their religion but for transgressing the law.**

Actually, I was referring to stories like all of Ham's descendants being cursed because he laughed at his drunk, naked father. Why should people who weren't even born yet be punished generations later for somehting they had no part in?

**"Punishment of all for the sins of some - eg the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah." - Read your Bible. Willfully ignorant. There are none good, no not one. God promised not to destroy Soddom and Gomorrah if He could find a single good person in either city.**

Why flood the earth? Why not just cause the wicked to drop dead on the spot? Your god is highly temperamental.
If there was none good in either city, including Lot, why was Lot spared? Your god plays favorites? That can hardly be called just, now can it?

**Calling a man righteous for offering his daughters to be gang-raped." Willfully ignorant. This action didn't make him righteous, much in Lot's life didn't make him righteous, he was as detestable as the rest of us, except that he sought after God and was thus made righteous. Do you know anything about what Christianity teaches?**

I know that, according to the story, when Lot offered his daughters to the mob, neither of the supposed angels spoke up and said, "Whoa, dude. That's not necessary. We can handle these guys."

**"Punishment of the innocent for the sins of the guilty - eg killing the Egyptian firstborn." - Again, innocent?**

Yes, innocent. It wasn't the firstborn that God was p.o'd at - it was Pharoah. As I recall, firstborn livestock were also killed. I suppose they were somehow guilty as well?

**"Invasion and destruction of indigenous people - eg the carnage wreaked by the Children of Israel on the various cities and towns they sacked under orders from their/your god." - This is not a reason to disbelieve Christianity, this is saying, "I don't agree with God." If you'd read the Bible, then you would. Especially see the conquest of Jericho in the book of Joshua.**

I can't worship a god who orders such wanton destruction. Such a god is not worthy of my worship.

**"Substitutionary atonement, IMO, is invalid. If an innocent person offers to be executed in place of a serial killer, how does that absolve the serial killer?" - Willfully ignorant. The entire Bible is about this very thing, read the story of the Passover, the story of Isaac on Mt. Moriah, Adam and Eve's sin and atonement...**

I have read it. And, again, I cannot worship a god who demands blood sacrifices of innocents.

**You don't have a leg to stand on.**

I've been standing on my own two feet for some time now.

**You may disagree with God, but the true reason you reject Christianity is because you hate God and the fact that He has promised to punish all of your transgressions.**

I don't disagree with your god, because I find it impossible toi believe that such a being exists. And I have no fear of punishment.

Your so-called prayer is too ridiculous to dignify with a response.

And as someone who has had to do battle with doctors who wished to impose their beliefs on my treatment or that of my family members, I think the question is an important one.

CS: You seem to be more concerned with eternity than life right now on earth.

I marvel not just at your arrogance but also at your persistence!! Too bad you have to go denigrating everyone else's beliefs just because they don't agree with you. If you open your mind, perhaps just maybe you'll realise that God by whatever name you may call Him / Her / Energy is within us, all of us.

Speaking of Serial Killers, you're REALLY going to hate that God saved David Berkowitz:
adventuresinchristianity.com/?L=pictures.gallery&id=34&pid=046734ce9e2c93

The knowledge level in this thread has gone way down and the bull-excrement level has gone way up.

There are so many false statements from Terra and various other pagans that it's impossible, and unnecessesary to address all of them. If you become a Christian come back and read them later and laugh at yourself, otherwise make the plea on judgment day to at least have your mind set straight on why you're condemned; we already know the answer, "Because you were willfully ignorant of the Truth."

A couple things that back up your complete hatred of God, the Bible, and the Truth;
"Punishment of descendents for the sins of ancestors." - An atheist will most likely have atheist babies, a muslim will have muslim babies, a pagan, pagan babies...all will go to Hell, not because of their religion but for transgressing the law. Sin is a serious thing.
"Punishment of all for the sins of some - eg the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah." - Read your Bible. Willfully ignorant. There are none good, no not one. God promised not to destroy Soddom and Gomorrah if He could find a single good person in either city.
"Calling a man righteous for offering his daughters to be gang-raped." Willfully ignorant. This action didn't make him righteous, much in Lot's life didn't make him righteous, he was as detestable as the rest of us, except that he sought after God and was thus made righteous. Do you know anything about what Christianity teaches?
"Punishment of the innocent for the sins of the guilty - eg killing the Egyptian firstborn." - Again, innocent?
"Invasion and destruction of indigenous people - eg the carnage wreaked by the Children of Israel on the various cities and towns they sacked under orders from their/your god." - This is not a reason to disbelieve Christianity, this is saying, "I don't agree with God." If you'd read the Bible, then you would. Especially see the conquest of Jericho in the book of Joshua.
"Substitutionary atonement, IMO, is invalid. If an innocent person offers to be executed in place of a serial killer, how does that absolve the serial killer?" - Willfully ignorant. The entire Bible is about this very thing, read the story of the Passover, the story of Isaac on Mt. Moriah, Adam and Eve's sin and atonement...An earthy judge doesn't have the authority, the insight, or the ability to inpute righteousness. If the innocent person was pefectly righteous and had the authority and ability to impute His righteousness onto the serial killer who repented with godly sorrow, then this would make sense. Justice is served, the fine is paid. You think that certain sins are worse than others, the Bible says that all murders and all liars will have their place in the lake of fire.

You don't have a leg to stand on. You may disagree with God, but the true reason you reject Christianity is because you hate God and the fact that He has promised to punish all of your transgressions.

I detest the sinners prayer of today, but if you would, John Gertsner wrote this sinners prayer especially for you:
"Dear God, whom I hate with all my being precisely because you hate and threaten me with hell, I hate this punishment perhaps even more than I hate you. Or, maybe I should say that I love my comfort even more than I hate you. For that reason I am asking a favor of you. I want you to make me love you, whom I hate even when I ask this and even more because I have to ask this. I am being frank with you because I know it is no use to be otherwise. You know even better than I how much I hate you and that I love only myself. It is no use for me to pretend to be sincere. I most certainly do not love you and do not want to love you. I hate the thought of loving you but that is what I'm asking because I love myself. If you can answer this 'prayer' I guess the gift of gratitude will come with it and then I will be able to do what I would not think of doing now—thank you for making me love you whom I hate. Amen."

That said, the original question is stupid, the reply by Dr. Elliott is suprisingly insightful. The truth of this question is we are all going to die someday and it's in your best interest to know where you're going to spend eternity.

RT:

I'd say that I probably fall somewhere between Pantheism and Panentheism.

I see all as part of the One, myself included. The Divine is not separate from the mundane, nor the creator/creatrix from the creation.
I don't see one God OVER everything - rather I see everything as part of one Whole that includes the Divine in all its manifestations. For me, that includes multiple forms of deity, even though I don't see deities as entities separate from the rest of the world. I'm afraid I'm not articulating this very well.

Gods (for me) are manifestations of the Divine in All - you, me, my cats, my azalea bushes, the baby mockingbird one of my cats brought home the other day and I am now hand-raising, every hair I pull out of my head when my daughter is late getting home, the tomatoes and jalapenos I pluck from my garden to make salsa with...and the Divine is a coalescence of all these things as well. The gods are in these things, and in that sense are very real. But I don't see Deity as a force separate from the rest of the world. I see it more as a composite that is more than the sum of its parts. It's kind of like a marraige - there's You, there's Me, and there's Us, and Us is more than just You + Me.

Terra: Good Comments... You should note that what you believe about the mythiness of Genesis is compatible with mainstream Christianity. The creation stories of Genesis are often considered to be more tribal and mythical than say the New Testament chronicle of Luke which is more of an historic record of the early apostles' journeys across modern day Turkey and Greece. Even most mainstream evangelicals agree that you have to read the Bible in context of its form (as poetry or as a letter, depending on what book you are reading.)

Lepidopterix: Panentheism is compatible with mainstream Christianity. *Pantheism* is not. There is one God, but God is not simply the sum of all that is created. Rather, God is the One "in whom we live and move and have our being" (Acts 17 -- Paul at Mars Hill)... God is the essence of reality and not just the substance.

Peace,
RT

Canyon:

Paganism isn't "bringing God down to man's level." It's recognizing that the Divine is infused into everything around you - right here, right now - not separate from you in some far-away kingdom in the clouds that you hope to see after you die.

anon,
All creation stories are alogories. Myths are cultural truths told in a way that the people could understand, useing their symbols.

In the Christian creation myth Eve...whose name means Life...eats of an apple. That apple was the ancient symbol of wisdom and protection. Cut an apple crosswise and the ancient pentagram is seen.
The snake is the symbol of Goddess wisdom and immortality. Or it was one of the animals that missed the boat.

According to the Greek mathematician and philosopher Pythagoras, five was the number of man, because of the fivefold division of the body, and the ancient Greek division of the soul. According to Pythagoras, the five points of the pentagram each represent one of the five elements that make up man: fire, water, air, earth, and psyche. (energy, fluid, breath, matter, and mind; liquid, gas, solid, plasma and aethyr) The Pythagoreans held the pentacle sacred to Hygeia, the Goddess of healing, whose name (HGIEiA) was an anagram in Greek for the elements water, earth, spirit, fire, and air.The pentagram was also found in stone age cave drawings.

All that in the guise of an apple. Eve ate of the apple; she ate of life, so she had to grow as a being. She had to learn through living and striving.
It was not the fall of man, it was the making of humanity.
Oh and Adam just means Clay...he was clay and Eve was life that formed him. Myths are always more then what you think. Don't read them literal...think about the ancients and the cultures and you will better understand.

In my Wiccan tradition we have a creation story...it says in prose what is the big bang. Those in my trad know the symbols... you would not. To you it would be gibberish, to those in the Trad it is science based. In fact science is catching up to magick...it's called Quantun Machanics.

You may not understand the symbols but that does not mean they did not mean anything of importance.

Shearer,

Godlessness?

As far as bringing God down to our level? You know nothing about our Gods, religion or our connection to our Gods.

Pagan universal view is not like your's. You can not put it in the same basket as your own view.

I know that for some people having laws in stone is a comfort...they can just go down the list and check them off. No uncomfortable thinking, no having to reason, no needing to know nuance and history...just go down the list or parrot someone else. It is authortarian and easy.

You are like those, self declaired Wiccans I call IRAB's. I read a book. You read a book. And that is all you need...just that one book...in a book that has many other things to say. But your religion and your God reflects who you are. What you choose to read and to believe reflects your spirit.

And for that I am sorry.
terra

There is an idea-that we should all be wicked if we did not hold to the Christian religion.
It seems to me that the people who have held to it have been for the most part extremely wicked.
You find this curious fact,that the more intense has been the religion of any period,and the more profound
has been the dogmatic belief,the greater has been the cruelty,and the worse has been the state of affairs.
In the so-called ages of faith,when men really did believe the Christian religion in all its completeness,there was
the inquisition,with its tortures;there were millions of unfortunate women burned as witches,and there was every kind of cruelty practiced upon all sorts of people in the name of religion.
You find as you look around the world that every single bit of progress in humane feeling,every improvement
in the criminal law,every step toward the diminution of war,every step towards better treatment of the coloured races,
or every mitigation of slavery,every moral progress that there has been in the world,has been consistently opposed by the organized churches of the world. I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion,as organized in its churches,has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world.
.
from Bertrand Russell

The religious have not seriously considered the arguments against religion or they would not believe anymore. All religions posit ridiculous beliefs that no reasonable person who was not raised in that faith could possibly accept. Here’s the Aztec creation myth (below). Does any reader find this story credible? if you looked at Christianity or Islam, etc. from an unbiased perspective, they would seem just as ludicrous as the Aztec stories.

The mother of the Aztec creation story was called Coatlique (the Lady of the Skirt of Snakes). She was created in the image of the unknown, decorated with skulls, snakes, and lacerated hands. There are no cracks in her body and she is a perfect monolith (a totality of intensity and self-containment, yet her features were square and decapitated).

Coatlique was first impregnated by an obsidian knife and gave birth to Coyolxanuhqui, goddess of the moon, and to a group of male offspring, who became the stars. Then one day Coatlique found a ball of feathers, which she tucked into her bosom. When she looked for it later, it was gone, at which time she realized that she was again pregnant. Her children, the moon and stars did not believe her story. Ashamed of their mother, they resolved to kill her. A goddess could only give birth once, to the original litter of divinity and no more. During the time that they were plotting her demise, Coatlique gave birth to the fiery god of war, Huitzilopochtli. With the help of a fire serpent, he destroyed his brothers and sister, murdering them in a rage. He beheaded Coyolxauhqui and threw her body into a deep gorge in a mountain, where it lies dismembered forever. The natural cosmos of the Indians was born of catastrophe. The heavens literally crumbled to pieces. The earth mother fell and was fertilized, while her children were torn apart by fratricide and then scattered and disjointed throughout the universe.

Canyon Shearer:

Please do not refer to the dharmic religions, paganism etc. in the same breath as the brand of Christianity that you profess. Its very insulting to the rest to be categorized in the same narrow bandwidth as yours. Thanks!

Canyon:
**you were in a confused cult formulated around a false gospel...probably the reason you're not a Christian today.**

Actually, the reason I'm not a Christian today is that, the older I got, the more I found certain critical actions attributed to the Christian god immoral and unacceptable.

To name a few:
Punishment of descendents for the sins of ancestors.
Punishment of all for the sins of some - eg the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah.
Calling a man righteous for offering his daughters to be gang-raped.
Punishment of the innocent for the sins of the guilty - eg killing the Egyptian firstborn.
Invasion and destruction of indigenous people - eg the carnage wreaked by the Children of Israel on the various cities and towns they sacked under orders from their/your god.
Substitutionary atonement, IMO, is invalid. If an innocent person offers to be executed in place of a serial killer, how does that absolve the serial killer?

**all people have come from an Adamic/Judao/Christian background and slipped into godlessness and idolatry.**

Adam was simply a metaphor for early man. And if you believe that all people come from a Judeo-Christian background, you're unstuck in time worse than Billy Pilgrim. Paganism was around long before either Judaism or Christianity.

As Person Unknown pointed out, back to the original question:
Should doctors be allowed to refuse care to patients based on the doctor's religion? Only if they inform the patient at the time the first appointment is made "My religion forbids me performing certain procedures, even at the cost of your life, which, even though they are perfectly legal and fall within the boundaries of generally accepted medical ethics, I consider sinful." That way, the patient won't waste his/her time/money on a doctor who missed his/her calling as a preacher.
Should pharmacists be allowed to cherry-pick what prescriptions they will fill based on their religious beliefs regarding certain drugs? Absolutely not. A pharmacists' job is to fill prescriptions as written. Period.

I came here to simply note that the original thread (remember that??) had to do with the duty of a doctor to care for the patient and if the doctors religion should influence medical decisions and advice. This is not anti-religious since this issue is a valid concern given the behavior of some medical professionals and support for that behavior in legislatures.

For Canyon - you like to quote Paul - I favor Pauli -your statements are not correct, they are not even wrong. Your dedication to one particular book of stories is, however, striking in it's narrowness. When I read tripe such as this, I am reminded of a scene from "Inherit the Wind" with groups standing about singing "give me that old time religion..." Abrahamic religion, that is.

By the way - any thought from you on the original thread?? Something beyond the interesting reading of it to mean "the secular world wants to have lots of sex with young (18 in most of the USA) women." Does a doctor have an ethical right to deny a request for accepted medical care? Should a pharmacist be able to refuse to fill valid 'scrips because of their own beliefs? Should these folks find another career? (my thought, BTW). Well??

Terra...of course they come to you...all people have come from an Adamic/Judao/Christian background and slipped into godlessness and idolatry.

All religions besides the Abrahamic religions can be easily explained with one of two principles.

1. Bringing God down to mans level:
-Paganism
-Hinduism
-Atheism
-Emergent Church
-Post Modernism

2. Lifting man up to God's level:
-Evolution
-Buddhism
-Mormonism
-Free Masons
-Roman Catholicism

See Acts 17 -
So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said:

"Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription,

TO THE UNKNOWN GOD

What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and Everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him.

Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, for 'in him we live and move and have our being' as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we are indeed his offspring.' Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.

The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, "We will hear you again about this." So Paul went out from their midst.

Shearer...
I think you are wrong about me being a postmodernist, I am more a modernist...Modernist thought had its origins in the enlightenment period.It was a celebration of the liberating potentials of the social sciences, the materialistic gains of capitalism, new forms
of rational thought, due process safeguards, abstract rights applicable to all, and the individual.

This is a Pagan song...it gives a good look at our way of thinking.

Teacher's Song

Question everything that I tell you
Ask until you understand
This isn't a system that's perfect
But I'm doing the best that I can
I wasn't always a teacher
Once I was a beginner like you
Listen very carefully to these words
'Cause they're the only I'll swear are true

Just because I say it, doesn't mean it's so
Let your heart and the Goddess within
Guide you as you go
Just because I say it, doesn't mean it's true
Let the Lord and the Lady and your intuition
Find a path for you

Always keep your eyes open
'Cause everything good isn't old
I'm not looking for robots
Who only do things they are told
This is a religion of learning
But it also comes from the heart
Pick and choose among what you use
And you're ready to make a start

Remember...
Just because I say it, doesn't mean it's so
Let your heart and the Goddess within
Guide you as you go
Just because I say it, doesn't mean it's true
Let the Lord and the Lady and your intuition
Find a path for you

Tradition isn't always stagnant
Innovation isn't always wrong
A little infusion dispels the delusion
And makes the tradition strong
What I'm giving you is a foundation
On which you can take root and grow
Someday you'll be telling your own students
What I hope that they already know

That...
Just because you say it, doesn't mean it's so
Let their hearts and the Goddess within
Guide them as they go
Just because you say it, doesn't mean it's true
Let the Lord and the Lady and their intuition
Find a path that's true

Just because I say it, doesn't mean it's so
Let your heart and the Goddess within
Guide you as you go
Just because I say it, doesn't mean it's true
Let the Lord and the Lady and your intuition
Find a path for you

By Breid Foxsong

Shearer, You trying to convert any Pagan with fear is a bit dumb...if you want to convert, you better understand our religion. And you don't. I am sure there are Wiccans that have converted to Christainity...I guess there is any way, I don't know any. Maybe because of the method used,and not even knowing our language. But all the Pagans I know have been Christian or Jewish at one time...and we do not seek converts, they come to us.
terra

Who,in his right mind,wants to become a christian?
And why???

Lepidopteryx...you were in a confused cult formulated around a false gospel...probably the reason you're not a Christian today.

Canyon Shearer
We all know what your posts say and at some point you may have to accept that we DO understand and still we DO NOT agree.
You need to trust the Lord a little better and stop thinking that you are His only instrument. Sounds a bit self-glorifying if you ask me.
Bottom line, what you need to remember if your concern is saving others that it is not about just being right all the time. You are driving people away, not persuading them.

Wiccan a bigot? That's rich.

And growing up Baptist, I was taught in Sunday School that accepting Jesus into one's heart (in those exact words) was how one became a Christian.

Russell...read the Bible the first time. Be anyway you want with it...I have confidence that the word of God will not come back void.

Wiccan, you can pretend you're paying attention all you want, but your, "accepting Jesus into your heart" comment proves you have no idea what my posts say.

I can't argue with Terra anymore because she is a post-modernist, and now I can't argue with you because you're a bigot...

Canyon:

Dude, you have really got to learn to lighten up. I am sure we could have a beer together someday, just.......relaxation is the key.
WOOSAW.......

Peace.

Oh, and reread that Bible of yours. This time, be objective. You may get more out of it this time.

Canyon-

I think we've found you:

"If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."

I have been paying attention; you just haven't said anything that would compel me to turn my back on the Divine, and cower before your concept of God. In fact, as I told you before, your concept of God is downright insulting to the Divine. I can't see through your eyes, Canyon, where I see love and joy and my responsibility to further the same, you see hate, and despair, and a "get out of hell free" card. Why don't you let God and me worry about my soul, and you take care of your own. No offense, son, but it could use some polishing.

Yoyo, some people will believe anything if it's not the Bible. I envy your faith; albeit it's a bit blind for my tastes.

All you "lovey dovey" people:

Wiccan, when exactly are you going to start paying attention. You don't ask Jesus into your heart, that is the cult understanding of christianity, which you rightly deny. I'm glad you haven't bought into that particular facet of falsity.

Read your Bible, Repent and believe the Gospel, and you will be saved.

I love you to the extent that I don't want you to go to Hell. I don't care for your beliefs or your ignorance or you hatred of God; in fact I despise these parts of your soul. But these things can be cleaned, justified, and sanctified.

There was a recent discussion on how there could be no tears in Heaven if the smoke of Hell constantly wafted through it. The inhabitants of Heaven would know that family members, friends, and aquantances were burning for all eternity, how could there possibly be no tears? The reason is because while we love the person, their iniquity is disgusting and the hatred of God is repulsive. God will be glorified either in saving you as a kind and merciful God, or He will be glorified in punishing you as a perfectly just Judge.

"God showed his love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." - Romans 5:8

Lep-

ROFLMAO!! Yes, our Canyon would make a perfect pastor there, or at least a deacon.

But seriously, can we find Canyon here?

1 Corinthians 13:1-13 (English-NIV)
1
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.
2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3
If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5
It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7
It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8
Love never fails.

Its like we're all computers
and our religious beliefs are programed into us
throughout our childhoods.
What we end up believing has nothing to do with truth,
and everything to do with the programing.
And different religion, different program.
If Canyon Shearer had been born and raised in a Muslim country,
today he'd praying 5 times a day facing Mecca:
and he would consider Christians to be infidels.
Had he been raised a Hindu,today he might be
burning incense and praying to Vishnu. Had he been
raised in Utah by Mormons,he'd now be a Mormon.
in Ireland,probably a devout catholic.
Like the rest of us Canyon Shearer believes what he was raised to believe;
and what his community believes.
Why don't we get it?
Religions are just passed-on customs and beliefs
from ancient times that cannot all claim to be true.
The likelyhood is none of it is true.
If it wasn't programed into our heads as kids,
we'd never believe it as intelligent adults,
hearing about God,or Allah,or Vishnu,for the first time.
It would sound perfectly ridiculous.

Wiccan:
**Really, Canyon, you don't witness about the love of Jesus, you use hellfire and damnation as weapons against anyone who doesn't drink your particular brand of Kool-Ade. Why? Do you get a toaster oven if you sign up so many people?**

Nah - Playstation http://www.landoverbaptist.org/index0107.html

Canyon-

Every time I read one of your posts I'm struck by your arrogance and hostility. I thought accepting Christ into your heart was supposed to change you, and for the better. If this is better, glad I didn't know you before...

Really, Canyon, you don't witness about the love of Jesus, you use hellfire and damnation as weapons against anyone who doesn't drink your particular brand of Kool-Ade. Why? Do you get a toaster oven if you sign up so many people?

Interesting point Canyon Shearer, "No one comes to the Father except through the Man who bears these names." Who actually was the Father of Jesus,, the individual on who's life the fictional person you call Jesus life's based?

There's another option, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul Actually, there's two other options, the whole thing is a hoax or, God forbid, the Father of Jesus was the biggest Devil of them all, Lucifer.

The Muslims are coming up fast. Seems Gabriel is horning in on God's business too. No wonder hell is so chaotic, two fallen angels vying for power. Make sure your rocket is pointed towards heaven and not hell. Now where do you think Muslims going? All aboard!!!

Canyon:
**I always wonder why it doesn't bother the Pagans who say, "We can't possibly know." that Christians say, "We absolutely do know."**

It's not your conviction that you know that bothers me. It's your arrogance.

Your travel analogy doesn't hold because it's directional - east/west, up/down. Perhaps your heaven is fixed in locatio. Mine is all around me and I already inhabit it. No baggage, no maps, no vehicle, and no tour guide needed to get there.

**No one comes to the Father except through the Man who bears these names.**

I don't need to come to the Father - I'm already securely held in the arms of the Mother.

I always wonder why it doesn't bother the Pagans who say, "We can't possibly know." that Christians say, "We absolutely do know." These are so polar-opposite that it bears consideration.

It doesn't bother me that Pagans said, "We can't possibly know." Rather I know what they mean is, "We don't want to know."

The peanut butter analogy was stupid.

Imagine we're driving from Los Angeles to New York. You have an affliction to driving East. You don't want you. You say, lets just drive, we'll get to New York, West sounds like a good idea.

As you know, West leads to the Pacific Ocean. Lest you turn around, you'll go to your death.

Consider this analogy, the Moon is Heaven, we all want to go. Pagans are twiddling their thumbs, Buddhists have taken the train, Muslims have rented a rowboat, Catholics have boarded a Jumbo Jet...on the landing pad is the STS-Jesus Christ, a space shuttle equipped with lunar lander.

Who do you think is going to the moon?

I can say with absolute certainty, the Space Transport System is the only one, the only way.

Repent and believe in the Way the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through the Man who bears these names.

Pagan Grace
(©Catherine Deville 1996
Tune: Amazing Grace)

Amazing grace how sweet the sound
that saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now I'm found.
I'm in recovery.

T'was Pagan grace that taught me fear
was something to disown.
and Pagan folk that lead me here,
that helped me find a home.

T'was Mother Earth who set me free
and taught me how to see.
I'll no more look to other men
for my divinity.

I now have freedom, joy and power
I have the Pagan key.
I know my freedom lies in self
responsiblity.

I no more seek for God in fear
and crawl on bended knee.
My Mother's love is full and kind
and wants no such from me.

Ok I love creamy peanut butter...and well done steaks. But Vie and Lepi..I give you the right to your own dietary menues.

Well I do think that the only good place for chunky peanut butter is in cookies, and raw steak on black eyes..; )

Shearer, About Pagan grace:

Amazing Pagan Grace

(Author unknown)

Amazing Grace
How sweet the Earth,
That bore a Witch like me.
I once was burned,
Now I survive.
Was Hanged but now I sing.
'Twas Grace, That Drew
Down the Moon,
and Grace that Raised
the Seas,
The Magick in,
The people's Will
Will Set our Mother Free.
We Face The East,
and breathe the winds,
That move across the Earth,
From gentle breeze to hurricane,
our breath will bring forth change.
Turn Towards the South,
and Feel the Fire,
That burns in you and me,
The Spirit's flame shall rise again,
and Burn Eternally.
We Greet the West
Our Souls awash,
In Tides of Primal Birth,
Our Pain and blood, Our Tears and love
Shall cleanse and heal the Earth.
Reach in to North,
and Know your roots,
Down Deep ancestral Caves.
We find the Wisdom of the Crone,
of Circles we are made.
Amazing Grace
How Sweet the Earth
That bore Witches like We.
We once were burned
Now we survive
were hanged and now we sing.
Goddess bless,
So mote it be
Our Magick Spirals on,
Merry meet and Merry Part
and Merry meet Again.

terra

Oh, Canyon... As for Grace.

Grace is as Grace does.

Patent not pending.

Hee. Peanut butter analogy, very good. :)

Frankly, I think one key difference between Pagans and Christians, not that we don't have our own ideas about spirit:

Christianity seems to be about insisting that one *knows,* and investing everything into that knowing... inciting terror in the very uncertainty that's claimed to be a sign of 'faith.' (nice way to shut people up, that: if you don't have "faith," you're *damned,* so why live life as a 'damned' person when you can try to 'redeem' yourself by converting others?)

Paganism, if I know our kids, is about being *prepared to face the unknown.*

We're free to know things, but also, free to *not* know things.

I mean, seriously. We'd all flip the bird at Gods who said, 'You didn't interpret Apuleius correctly!'

"Did I bring my brain with me? I thought I was dead. Sorry, there."

These so 'justified' premises for *hurting people* just don't fly with us. Don't make a whit of sense, esecially in terms of 'Final Judgement By An Inconsistent Maniac That Likes Dick Cheney.'

I mean, ....what?

As I told some Fundie employers who tried to forbid me from obeying the law and recycling the business' related waste, ...cause it would slow the Second Coming, they said, ...well, to them, I just said,

'There comes a point where if your God did rule the universe, I'd just have to say, 'OK, last I heard, people trying to end the world in suffering, pain, and tyranny were supposed to be the bad guys. Pardon if I missed that bit, but if you thought I needed to extract the one truth from contradictory sources, you shouldn't have sent liars and cowards to tell me."

I mean, there's freedom of religion here in America, but the excuses to *hurt people* with it that just happen to make money for the greedy have worn just *so thin,* it's hard to take it as anything but insane suicidal influences occasionally displaced upon those not-sexually-dominable or something.

I'd say, not only are they desperately-afraid of evolutionary theory cause someone might notice the res