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Why is it in a forum where the Pagan traditions are being smacked by the writer, are there Pagans willing to distance themselves from one group (Dianics) to make themselves seem more acceptable to this Christian writer who displays amazing ignorance of modern Pagan movements? I am ashamed.

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Athena's emblem is the 5 pointed star. You might notice that almost all militaries in the world still use the 5 pointed star. Now, as in ancient times war is governed by a Goddess. Men are traditionally the ones who die in war (while wearing sacrificial symbols to the Goddess such as the chevron).

that little thing that is between womens leg has got the world in a up roar, let me tell you why.first off,no matter how educated women are they still behave like animale,they search for a mate as if they were rearing children for future gladator competion.I am a 5'8" attractive male, one that most women will lok over until she has been used abused and screwed by the man of her dreams. and then that is wher i come in to the picture.once realized that I and many others like me are nice fellows, consideration wants to be give, but who wants somone that all there life has acted like an animale due to there own ignorance. secondly, consider this;a good portion of women only find religion after having been doged out to the point that that is there only refuge.but consider this,now you have 3 kids and you want to attract someone not very inticing because now you to accept you and your children in which you look at and see the father and can not stand,but yet and still you want me to love and accept them, quite a difficult situation.my suggestion is that if you want men to respect you in the long run you have to have respected your self from the begining, because just as tabula rosa means ;there has not been a cleaned slate just because you found religion for ever thing we have done is still inbeded in everybeing, and even though we may not do the same things that we we used to do these urges are manifasted and satified in different manners. so once again if you want respect you have to give respect as the old saying gose,for if i was only "LITTLE MAN" when you were running with the big dogs how an I to believe you when you say now I am the MAN of your life. PEACE LOVE & UNDERSTANDING!

Humans are in fact not intelligent or rational. We are mostly blind. Why can't we discover the absurdity in such beliefs in male gods or female gods? Judaism, Christianity and Islam, for example, worship all male gods. The gods are not only male, but also patriarchial, like the despotic heads of a family. There are no roles for women in these religions. Some other religions have goddesses or both gods and goddesses. Why can't we see that all religions are thus just human creations, reflecting human societies? As the Old-Testment God was too archaic and inhuman, Jesus created a new God, more lenient and forgiving and thus was killed by those who worshipped the old God.

Humans need a new Messiah who can unify all the religions or at least show them that all the gods /goddesses that they have been worshipping are not the true God or gods/goddesses and that God/gods/goddesses, if they exist, have never intervened in human affairs or have never wanted humans to know about Him/them, let alone worship them by killing each other.

This author is missing the point. The truth is God is masculine and feminine. He is our Mother as well as our Father, and a Pope said that. It is not just a matter of picking out an ideal of a woman and worshipping her as as "goddess." The Divine Being, the Primal Parent is NOT a man, nor a woman. Why do we have to call God HE when SHE would do just as well? There are Christian sects (Unity and Religious Science for two) that pray to Mother/Father God outloud in church. True they don't say goddess. But what is the argument here? Goddess is the wrong word to use for the Supreme Deity? A person should not voice an opinion supporting or opposing anything unless they know what it is.

Morgaine,
thank you so very much for that wonderful, articulate and insightful post. It is uplifting to see that there are still people who can state their views in such a beautiful and effective manner while avoiding the habit that so many people have gotten into of belittling and insulting those whose views differ from their own. You are to be applauded. Even if I did not agree 100% with your comments (which I actually did), I would have to respect the manner in which you expressed them.
Thank you again.
Peace and Bright Blessings to you,
Maggie Silentfaun

Hi, Solange -

I have to respectfully disagree. Recent research is finding that people are not naturally violent. Our species was initially successful because of our ability to cooperate. Violence might occur some places in nature, but not everywhere. Everyone is fond of comparing us to the behavior of chimpanzees, but we are more likely to have been sensual and cooperative as bonobos are. There have been human societies without violence. There is evidence that war was virtually unknown to the Minoan culture. Archeologists are looking for it, but they can't find it. They find lots and lots of Goddess statues, though, even though they try to gloss over their gender.

Remember that the prevailing theories in anthropology and archeology have been through the patriarchal filter of academia. We have to sift through the androcentrism to find the truth. It benefits the power structure for us to buy into the lie that we will always be violent. A very few people make a lot of money by keeping us at war, and they don't care who has to die, or how many, as long as their coffers are filled. The rest of us don't count - Hurricane Katrina should have erased any doubt of this.

There have indeed been gender egalitarian civilizations, including some Native American groups. The First Nations were not homogenous - different groups had vastly different cultures and practices. Not all were violent, and most were not patriarchal until forced onto reservations, when they had to have male authorities to interface with the white patriarchal government. The Haudenosaunee still retain a semi-matriarchal structure. You might want to check out some of the surviving matriarchies - the Mosuo of China, for example- to see a culture where there is no marriage, no concept of women as chattel, and no oppression of women.

I guess I have a more positive view of the potential of people. A sensible man is quite capable of making the shift into the Gaian mind - many already are, though they don't fully realize it yet. When enough people realize that "the team" is a racist, sexist, elitist core of a few very rich, very white people who are robbing the rest of us, they'll take back their power. The international Green Party, and the new attention to the environment are a part of this. People are waking up. Why do you think the government is so terrified of "eco-terrorists?" Environmentalism, consumer protection, corporate regulation and social responsibility cut into profits, and money is what really matters to them.

I believe the crisis of climate change is going to accelerate this process. "The team" created this mess, so the team needs to be disbanded, and control returned to the people. It's a change vital not to the Earth, because She is a self-healing organism, but to us. If we continue to act like a cancer that grows out of control and destroys the body, Her body will rid itself of us. It won't be a "punishment" but rather a normal function of Gaia's immune system. We have no choice but to live in harmony with Her - there's no life without Her.

Even if you don't believe the Earth is alive, wouldn't it be more practical to act as if it were? We aren't going to colonize the moon this year. This is our one and only home. It just makes sense to maintain it.

It doesn't take much to put Goddess values into practice, because they are practical. Witches only use what works. As soon as people stop thinking of planets as dead rocks and the Universe as a computer, and understand that they are living organisms, the new paradigm will lead them to understand our place in the world.

The problem right now is that policy is being made by people who are following codes written by nomadic tribes from 5,000 years ago. These might have made sense then, but they are keeping us from moving forward as a species. We have to adapt and grow, and a part of that is getting back in touch with the Earth.

It doesn't require "belief." If anything, it requires doubt. The ability to admit that we might be wrong can put us back on track. Moral certainty is what drives a person to strap a bomb on his back, or to pass legislation that oppresses people for arbitrary reasons, or disenfranchise entire groups or genders or to kill 600,000 people for no reason at all. Would you drop a bomb on someone if you thought you might be making a mistake?

The simple reality is that any one of us can be mistaken. The scriptures people rely upon might be incorrect, inaccurate, deliberately altered for various reasons or mistranslated. Even if they are of divine origin, our understanding of them may not be. We can be wrong, and none of us can know for certain what the nature of the divine is until we die. In the mean time, a little critical thinking would go a long way toward solving our problems.

Goddess sensibilities can save us. Seeing each other as children of the same Source can give us respect for those who differ from us. Seeing the Ocean as the Womb of Life - and it is - discourages dumping waste and chemicals into it. Open, healthy sensuality without guilt, guile or repression reduces the violence in a society. Respecting others as a part of ourselves creates calmer, kinder people. The Goddess demands no sacrifice, discourages violence, encourages cooperation, sees women as the Source of Life, children as gifts of the Goddess, embraces men as Her own children. There's no war, no hell, no damnation, no guilt in the Goddess, there's only love for ourselves and each other. I'll take those blessings over a god of war any day.

Well said. One point of contention: While people are often tempted to believe otherwise, historical, archeological and anthropological evidence overwhelmingly affirms that violence is, indeed, a "natural" part of human nature (as it is in the rest of the animal kingdom).

Much of that violence has, as we know, been carried out by men, in the process of obtaining and accumulating more wealth than the other guy (albeit, often goaded on by women). Again, as noted earlier, this helps men ensure they "spread the seed" before more attractive guys get in there and procreate. There's a reason middle eastern harem guards were all eunachs, know what I mean?

There's just no evidence of a gender egalitarian culture existing, ever, in human history. That includes native americans, who often raided rival tribes, kidnapped new "wives," killed the offspring of other males, and so on (south american cultures, and those that did not cultivate agriculture, were worse).

Patriarchical religious doctrine emerged to bolster those processes, because men were able to develop the power and authority structures necessary to support them. Women were excluded from those structures for reasons mentioned earlier -- no authority for women works to the benefit of the whole "team." The historical mystery, of course, is why women allowed themselves to be excluded from power structures. The logistics of child care was one factor, but there are others that go to biology.

As Morgaine mentions, and I noted earlier, Judeo-Christian-Moslem based cultural practices, do indeed, place human survival at risk. While gender polarity is part of the flawed thinking in those dogmas (Christianity departs somewhat, but of course, nobody really practices it anyway), the prospect of men letting down the "team" to move towards a more Gaiaic sensibility appears remote, at best.

I can't even call that flawed logic, because it's no logic at all. First, you cannot compare post-patriarchal cults to Goddess worship, even if their pantheons include Goddesses. They might provide for some feminine representation of the divine, but always in a subordinate or negative form. The great Goddesses were re-written to be servile or evil, always in service to or opposition of the male deity.

As a Dianic Witch, I see the Universe as a living, female entity that is all inclusive. Gaia is a microcosm of the larger body. A monotheast - one who believes in one Goddess - has a much broader view of deity than most people realize. There's a saying in the Craft that "all gods are Goddesses and all Goddesses are one Goddess." There is no conflict in that statement if you stop thinking in black and white, concrete terms. The Goddess will take any form you need Her to take, and some of those forms are male.

The Feminine Divine is not exclusive of the male, as if it were a reverse of monotheism. It's not "patriarchy in a skirt." In nature the first and favored gender is female. There are species in which females produce without males. There are none where males produce without females. The masculine is a derivative of, and included in, the feminine. The first couple was not a man and a woman, it was a female and her child. Note the pervasive obsession with Virgin Births in modern theology. This could very easily be an unconscious desire to return to the Goddess.

One of the worst things to happen to Pagan culture is the popularity of the yin/yang symbol. There is always a majority in favor of the female gender. Polarity is destructive - it creates either conflict or stagnation. It is the epitome of the black and white thinking that pervades this society. Life comes in many shades, and the Goddess encompasses all of them, not half of them.

There is one major misconception in the world today, and it is putting our survival at risk - the idea that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are different religions. They are variations of worship of the same, singular male deity, and that deity is violent, oppressive, and exclusive. The irony is that the three branches are trying to annihilate each other because they're part of the same poison tree, which values conquest and genocide.

It makes me sad that people cannot even envision a world of cooperation, peace, love of the Goddess and each other. We lived that way for hundreds of thousands of years, at least. Even if we get people to let go of their war god, it won't be enough. We need to create a culture where we see each other as parts of a whole, and people behave in their natural, cooperative way.

Violence is learned, not natural, and Goddess societies lived peacefully while developing agriculture, art and sciences that we're only now rediscovering. Christianity threw the Western world into a Dark Age during which we lost the knowledge of the ancient world - things like atomic theory and evolution, which were known in ancient Alexandria and only relearned in modern times. As patriarchy spread, its sickness of greed and hate became institutionalized in our laws and our scriptures, while remnants of the Old Ways were deliberately obscured, co-opted or destroyed. If we aren't careful, we'll have another wave of darkness - look at the influence of the Religious Right, which is challenging the doctrine of evolution and trying to re-write American histoy to fit their agenda. Are we going to let that happen again? It took several millenia for us to come back from the first wave.

Getting back in touch with the great Goddess is exactly what this planet needs. Sustainable societies are possible. Peace is possible. Patriarchy got us into this violent, polluted mess - Matriarchy could certainly get us out of it. Remember that a few people wield a lot of power, money and control by keeping people at war and in fear. Don't accept the lie that it's "just the way humans are." Get in touch with the power of Nature, then take your own power back from the church and the state and choose to be a part of the world instead of apart from it.

The Goddess is back and She's not going away again.

I can't even call that flawed logic, because it's no logic at all. First, you cannot compare post-patriarchal cults to Goddess worship, even if their pantheons include Goddesses. They might provide for some feminine representation of the divine, but always in a subordinate or negative form. The great Goddesses were re-written to be servile or evil, always in service to or opposition of the male deity.

As a Dianic Witch, I see the Universe as a living, female entity that is all inclusive. Gaia is a microcosm of the larger body. A monotheast - one who believes in one Goddess - has a much broader view of deity than most people realize. There's a saying in the Craft that "all gods are Goddesses and all Goddesses are one Goddess." There is no conflict in that statement if you stop thinking in black and white, concrete terms. The Goddess will take any form you need Her to take, and some of those forms are male.

The Feminine Divine is not exclusive of the male, as if it were a reverse of monotheism. It's not "patriarchy in a skirt." In nature the first and favored gender is female. There are species in which females produce without males. There are none where males produce without females. The masculine is a derivative of, and included in, the feminine. The first couple was not a man and a woman, it was a female and her child. Note the pervasive obsession with Virgin Births in modern theology. This could very easily be an unconscious desire to return to the Goddess.

One of the worst things to happen to Pagan culture is the popularity of the yin/yang symbol. There is always a majority in favor of the female gender. Polarity is destructive - it creates either conflict or stagnation. It is the epitome of the black and white thinking that pervades this society. Life comes in many shades, and the Goddess encompasses all of them, not half of them.

There is one major misconception in the world today, and it is putting our survival at risk - the idea that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are different religions. They are variations of worship of the same, singular male deity, and that deity is violent, oppressive, and exclusive. The irony is that the three branches are trying to annihilate each other because they're part of the same poison tree, which values conquest and genocide.

It makes me sad that people cannot even envision a world of cooperation, peace, love of the Goddess and each other. We lived that way for hundreds of thousands of years, at least. Even if we get people to let go of their war god, it won't be enough. We need to create a culture where we see each other as parts of a whole, and people behave in their natural, cooperative way.

Violence is learned, not natural, and Goddess societies lived peacefully while developing agriculture, art and sciences that we're only now rediscovering. Christianity threw the Western world into a Dark Age during which we lost the knowledge of the ancient world - things like atomic theory and evolution, which were known in ancient Alexandria and only relearned in modern times. As patriarchy spread, its sickness of greed and hate became institutionalized in our laws and our scriptures, while remnants of the Old Ways were deliberately obscured, co-opted or destroyed. If we aren't careful, we'll have another wave of darkness - look at the influence of the Religious Right, which is challenging the doctrine of evolution and trying to re-write American histoy to fit their agenda. Are we going to let that happen again? It took several millenia for us to come back from the first wave.

Getting back in touch with the great Goddess is exactly what this planet needs. Sustainable societies are possible. Peace is possible. Patriarchy got us into this violent, polluted mess - Matriarchy could certainly get us out of it. Remember that a few people wield a lot of power, money and control by keeping people at war and in fear. Don't accept the lie that it's "just the way humans are." Get in touch with the power of Nature, then take your own power back from the church and the state and choose to be a part of the world instead of apart from it.

The Goddess is back and She's not going away again.

Sorry, that second paragraph was meant for Solange.

Terra Gazelle wrote:

"The Goddesses found in the digs were not stand ins for Playboy...but representatives of the Great Goddess; Large breasts that nurish the world, large hips that are good for birth giving. Some of the figures were found in what would have been little niches in walls...they were seen as Goddesses not the ancient view of a fat Tyra Banks.

Please make an effort to learn about Pagans and what they practice."
________________________

Don't speak for all of us, Terra. As a pagan and Wiccan priestess, I believe that many of the figures, based on their look, WERE primitive Playboys. Large breasts/hips were also sexually attractive (still are to many males); not just Mother Earth aspects. Maybe, just maybe, men on long hunts satisfied a sexual need by inspiration. That's not a BAD thing.

The ones that were found in niches might have been household Goddesses, they might have been in storage. We simply don't know. But please make an effort to learn that all pagans don't believe in the idea that gender-based faiths catered to the needs of that gender primarily.

*grin* Solange, we're on the same page. I also believe that most of the figures were sexually oriented and not necessarily religious objects. Re-read my post of January 22, 2007 9:50 AM.

"little niches in walls..."

as opposed to rolled up behind the towels?

Again, sorry to offend. My point is simply that people tailor religion to their own needs, and thus male-created religions are going to cater to male needs. It's my contention that history shows those needs to be, generally, detrimental to women's welfare. I personally believe the process is biologically grounded. Thus I am skeptical of that men and women can participate "equally" in any faith-based program.

WOW!
Solange...
First off, my partner is titled High Priest which means he is a MAN...the ESS is the feminine, meaning I am a woman. He is very happy with his part in the religion and our group, he is strong in areas I am not..and I am strong in areas he is not. We work well together and have an elders counsel in case we need them.

And, as you do not know me, do not insult me that i am morally corrupt. I and the Priest do not have sex in any way as I am not married to him. I am happily married to a man that is not Pagan, and my oath to my husband seems to be stronger then the Christian pastor down the road who landed in jail for abusing 24 children in his church along with some furry animals. He had help, the town cop for one. And not a Witch in the group.

The Goddesses found in the digs were not stand ins for Playboy...but representatives of the Great Goddess; Large breasts that nurish the world, large hips that are good for birth giving. Why is it people do not see the obvious but only what their modern minds are used to? Some of the figures were found in what would have been little niches in walls...they were seen as Goddesses not the ancient view of a fat Tyra Banks.

Please make an effort to learn about Pagans and what they practice.

I will not say there are not Pagans who do partake of sex and other things...but that is not what we are about, no more then Christians are about raping children and beastiality.

For the poster that asked the question how a Wiccan High Priestess can be legally ordained...

Wicca is a legal religion..I am affiliated with a Wiccan church that has legal standing, I have been educated by many years of work and proving myself was ordained.

We do live in a country where there is no State Church that is Established. The courts have conseded that we have all the elements of any other recognized religion....Wicca was also added in the Military handbook for Chaplains...

There are now all kinds of Wiccan churches and seminaries, as well as other institutions such as our version of boy and girl scouts; The Spiral Scouts, 12 step programs and charities. We marry people, have what you all would call baptisms, ficilitate at funerals, counsel the grieving and those needing help, we are also chaplains in hospitals and prisons.

Now just why is that so hard to believe...and I live in the deep south.

While we may not be Christian, Muslim or Jew, we are a religion and like any other should be respected.

Yes, but what a rich bonanza was left over to divide between those who survived the carnage...especially if they never had to step on the battlefield but convinced poorer and younger men to go in their place (did the Texas Air National Guard exist in 500 BC?)

Imagine if it were legal, and indeed, church-sanctioned for women to eliminate rivals in the same way men do: to find some "patriotic" excuse to take out a whole cadre of supermodels, calender girls, Miss America, etc., then take over their cool jobs, condos, cash and football player boyfriends.

Now we begin to understand God-the-Father's very useful contribution to the male side of history.

"... most major 'spiritual' dogmas place males above females..."

You mean Christianity, Islam, Judaism and Hinduism? The male War-God religions? They're 'major' because they've slaughtered anyone who wouldn't join their ranks.

Historically speaking, male fear and hostility towards female power, as expressed in various androcentric "philosophical" and "spiritual" texts like the bible, koran, etc., seem to focus on so-called female emotionality and "unstability" for the same reasons they focus on female bodily functions: as projections of a more general male fear of being bypassed or rejected socially and thus sexually...of losing face.

As noted earlier, men have fewer chances to mate if they do not achieve social status. Most women, on the other hand, will reproduce no matter what. This is why men have historically insisted on monopolizing the concept of "authority" as masculine. If women have no authority, while low-ranking males carry some "inherently male" amount, the odds to mate improve for even low-status males.

These concerns of course become more pressing as men age and grow less vigorous and more unappealing physically (the point in life when people begin to write down their philosophical insights and observations, if they're allowed to). As the older male begins to see younger, more attractive males moving in to replace him (this happens with all animals), those fears naturally drive him to find ways to control women's access to better quality mates. Enter "religion," and with it, the notion of the "divine," as masculine.

While most major "spiritual" dogmas place males above females, they have also historically proved quite useful as a political tool for older, spent-out men to sucker younger, healthy hotties into a "patriotic" frenzy, whence they very helpfully go off and die in battle, thus further reducing youth competition.

So we see that religion has really provided the social backbone to bolster human male mating opportunities, as it has developed through the ages.

Sadly, also wasting a whole slew of hot, young guys on the battlefield.

The historical mystery, of course, is why women have bought into this stuff for these past millenia. Religions that sucker women into "worshiping" a masculinized diety likely play a key role.

But Heaven Forbid we worship the Female divine unless as some Divine handmaiden virgin. Female
fierceness is to be denied yet Abrahamic Temper Tantrums are encouaraged and used by men as role modeling and divine mentorship. But Heaven forbid that women or men be have an example of female divine behaviour, beyond put up Virgin Theotokises, patience and virtue. But then again men must be angry and short tempered and fierce. They have to run the world and we handmaidens must pander their wishes. To say no to a Goddess means you do not Trust the running of the World, life or society to the female sex and are medieval in you beliefs in female autonomy and abilities of women to be responsible. And maybe a deep-seated fear of female emotionality and unstability.

The Venus figurines are unappealing by today's weight standards; but they do share numerous elements in common with modern porn. The total absence of distinguishing facial features or individual identity on most of these carvings emphasize sex characteristics almost to the point of caricature (which may explain the "fat"). Not unlike today's "models" which seem to resemble each other more and more each year.

Sorry to offend, Seshen, but history is pretty clear that when it comes to male "spirituality," religion is just another cool inspiration for whacking material...NOT THAT THERE'S ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT!

Athana wrote on Jan 22, 10:16 am:

"I'm sure men at Catalhoyuk, Turkey, 6000 BC, got a big sex bang outa seeing the grossly fat, nude Goddess seated on a throne flanked by two lionnesses and in the process of giving birth (the head of the newborn is just appearing)."

That's entirely separate from the small, hand-sized, full-figured figures that are being referenced. And "grossly fat" today was considered attractive in times past.

Seshen
http://seshen.livejournal.com

Whoops! Thought we got free ads here for weblogs. Guess not. My address:

http://godmotherascending.blogspot.com/

Dear January 21, 2007 7:36 PM,

"The 'fertility' GodESSes located in ancient digs quite likely served the same purpose as Playboy and Hustler magazines do today."

I'm sure men at Catalhoyuk, Turkey, 6000 BC, got a big sex bang outa seeing the grossly fat, nude Goddess seated on a throne flanked by two lionnesses and in the process of giving birth (the head of the newborn is just appearing).

Come on over to my blog for a pic; I'm sure you'll see what I mean about this figure being a stunning, titillating turn-on.

Solange, I disagree with many of your statements.

"except that you are a priestESS who affords to your male colleague the root term "priest," and has no problem with language that diminutes (female) GoddESSes as secondary, again, to the root concept of god as masculine."

The "ESS" is not a diminutive nor a secondary; languages all over the planet have endings that differentiate gender.

"Are your discrimination-free male colleagues so enthusiastic to "share" authority, promotion opportunities, wealth, etc. in the real world...or take a back seat?"

Absolutely. The pagan community is abundant in this. Secure males in general are not threatened in the "real world" by women who are responsible authority figures.

"Would they be as interested in Wiccan ceremonies if multiple sex partners were not a part of the ideology? Not likely."

Well, since multiple sex partners are NOT part of the Wiccan ideology, that's kind of a moot point. Try studying up on the faith instead of relying on New Age and Hollywood for your information.

"The "fertility" GodESSes located in ancient digs quite likely served the same purpose as Playboy and Hustler magazines do today."

My Wiccan priest husband & I do agree on this. We believe they were likely portable inspiration for hunters away from home for long periods of time.

"Looking to the past will not solve the problems women face from patriarchical traditions..."

Agreed as well, although Wicca is a modern, 20th century faith so we don't have too look very far back. ;) I recommend "Matriarchal Prehistory - Why An Invented Past Will Not Give Women a Future" by Cynthia Eller.

"Wicca is a positive force to counter traditional male cultural authoritarianism, but there is no such thing as a "male witch" and the philosophy contradicts itself when a sexual duality principle is incorporated."

Maybe in the 1960s, but Wicca is not simply a counterculture movement against male authority. In the 21st century, the equality field is much more defined. It's not a women's religion anymore (in fact, it began with men having the higher authority), and there are most definitely male witches in abundance!

"We are equal, each having their duties and strengths..."

except that you are a priestESS who affords to your male colleague the root term "priest," and has no problem with language that diminutes (female) GoddESSes as secondary, again, to the root concept of god as masculine.

No doubt in the process of conducting silly ceremonies your male constituants especially look forward to, which incorporate extracurricular activities in the name of "sacred harmonic union." Are your discrimination-free male colleagues so enthusiastic to "share" authority, promotion opportunities, wealth, etc. in the real world...or take a back seat? I doubt it. Would they be as interested in Wiccan ceremonies if multiple sex partners were not a part of the ideology? Not likely.

The "fertility" GodESSes located in ancient digs quite likely served the same purpose as Playboy and Hustler magazines do today.

Looking to the past will not solve the problems women face from patriarchical traditions...it's going to take a redefinition of what constitutes authority and leadership to achieve "equality..." something you are not going to find, historically, in any culture or time.

Wicca is a positive force to counter traditional male cultural authoritarianism, but there is no such thing as a "male witch" and the philosophy contradicts itself when a sexual duality principle is incorporated.

Athana,
Thank you...that is so true.Wimpy make over goddesses is true. Not like Ishtar... or Isis, Hecate or any number of pre classical deities. Hera went from a Mother Goddess to the shrill jealous wife of the womanizing, egotistcal god Zeus.

I also have a book or two to recommend- When God was a Woman by Merlin Stone and The Chalise and the Blade by Eiane Eisler.

The Gods I honor are the pre classical ones..starting with Gaea, Ouranos/Chaos and Chronus/Time...Gaea,the vessel of life who brought Time out of Chaos, then with Time created the Gods and man. I don't know any one that worships the Gods as living breatheing entities that are running around in Togas, but as energies of creation...we are not so literal.

Wicca from it's start was a religion that honored the balance and harmony of energies..Masculine/Feminine.Even the Dianics have those who honor the male Divine..we are filled with Feminists true. And as a feminist I give equal honor to the man that works along side of me as a High Priest, as he gives me as the High Priestess and Lady of the Temple. I do have the last word, but I also can be asked to step down if I mess up, as is he. We are equal, each having their duties and strengths. Leading Pagans is like herding cats and if people do not pull together it is too easy for things to fall apart.We have a hard enough slog just existing in this world of discrimination. Our Gods teach us in our faith that each are to be respected for "Thou art God/Goddess"...and as such part of the divine.

There are many myths about how the male Gods demoted the Mother Goddesses from their rightful place..
Such as the story of Apollo walking into the throne room of Gaea(the original owner) at Delphi and pulling Her from her Throne, He killed the Pythoness but needed Her powers. He still needed women as seers, men could not cut it.So only women who have see 50 winters could be a seer of Delphi.

And all the way though history there has been myths of the down fall of the powerful Goddesses to be second to the more war like and in the case of some..more stupid male gods.

Maybe some academics need to pay more attention to the ancient myths such as the Descent of the Goddess... start with Ishtar, there are others.(the story of Jesus dieing for three days and then returning, could be seen as a copy of this more ancient feminine Divine myth.) Myths are entertainment that the masses could understand wrapped about a truth. The use and understanding of the ancient symbols have been forgotten, and without that knowledge you can not understand the truth.

Blessed Be,

Wendy,

“Goddess feminists are whistling in the dark when they argue … that everyone used to worship goddesses (some people did, but many did not)….”

Just a tad curious how you know who worshipped what in the past. As an archaeologist I can tell you *we* aren’t certain. One thing we do know, though: thousands of female figurines (but almost no males) have been unearthed in Europe and the Middle East circa 10,000 – 3000 BC. Many are other-worldly – i.e. not dolls, playthings, or porn stuff. A 6000 BC figurine, for example, shows a mammoth nude flanked by two lions, seated on a throne and giving birth. Figurines are often found in temples, on shrines, or mixed among religious paraphernalia.

Another thing we know about 10,000 – 3000 BC: there was no war to speak of. Go get *How War Began,* 2004, by Keith Otterbein, professor of anthropology at SUNY, Buffalo, a director of the well-known Human Relations Area Files, and author of numerous articles on warfare.

Read it.

Here’s the mistake you and most others make about goddesses. They split into two groups. Those after 3000 BC (the date differs by area) are wimpy war-god makeovers. Many before 3000 BC appear to be Great Mother Goddesses.

In a nutshell: After 3000 BC: War gods. Wimpy make-over goddesses. Constant war. Before 3000 BC: Great Goddesses. No war gods. No war.

Go get *The Birth of the Gods and the Origins of Agriculture,* 2002, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, by archaeologist Jacques Cauvin. Read it.

I'm sure you'll agree we’d all be better off if we stuck with the war gods, the wimpy goddesses, and our constant warfare. Hee, hee.

Ms. Doniger's ignorance belies her age. I doubt that many Pagans today still believe in the prehistoric primal fertility Goddess that she describes. Ask most any Pagan and they'll say that balance and equality are key tenets of their beliefs. Hence Gods AND Goddesses. If a Pagan chooses to take a patron God or Goddess that s/he feels has called him/her, that God or Goddess is not necessarily the only on s/he worships.

And if she thinks women's storytelling "mocks men," she's either reading feminist literature from 30 years ago... or listening to men. Given the thousands of years of abject oppression, perhaps storytelling that celebrated women who triumphed over men was a sort of survival tactic, and a clever way of passing on tricks on how to avoid death, rape, or a beating.

Goddesses are a way for women to connect with something they can relate to. Something that shows them that they can be beautiful and powerful and wise. Just as Gods can show men the power and beauty and wisdom in themselves. Or vice versa, really. They aren't "angry goddesses" who seek to destroy men.

Goddesses may not be the only solution, but they are certainly part of it. Because when "God" is forever portrayed as male, there can be no equality. And when there is only "One," there can be no diversity. So tell me again, how does that promote equality?

"There is generally, therefore, an inverse ratio between the worship of goddesses and the granting of rights to human women. Nor are the goddesses by and large compassionate; they are generally a pretty bloodthirsty lot. "

Wendy Doniger continues her cultural genocide of Indian religion/history. An observation needs universal applicability before it can be generalized or made into a law. Forget the numerous religions all through history that have worshipped goddesses, I wonder if Ms.Doniger is familiar with the Nairs of Kerala ( south india ) who have matrilineal system where women have always had equal and in some areas more rights than men. Doniger should exercise more caution before talking about proportional relations, inverse or otherwise.

I have worshipped Hindu Goddesses all my life and I fail to understand what "bloodthirsty" goddesses
doniger is referring to. India is a huge and complex country as are her religions and history.
A generalization of any sort is a fool's errand.

Wendy Doniger's scholarship and her Phd factory at University of Chicago caters to the worst stereotypes and prejudices of western views of Hinduism. Doniger's malevolent and malicious interpretations try to de-legitimize Hindu experiences. De-legitimization of a people and their experience is always a precursor to genocide.

"There is generally, therefore, an inverse ratio between the worship of goddesses and the granting of rights to human women. Nor are the goddesses by and large compassionate; they are generally a pretty bloodthirsty lot. "

Wendy Doniger continues her cultural genocide of Indian religion/history. An observation needs universal applicability before it can be generalized or made into a law. Forget the numerous religions all through history that have worshipped goddesses, I wonder if Ms.Doniger is familiar with the Nairs of Kerala ( south india ) who have matrilineal system where women have always had equal and in some areas more rights than men. Doniger should exercise more caution before talking about proportional relations, inverse or otherwise.

I have worshipped Hindu Goddesses all my life and I fail to understand what "bloodthirsty" goddesses
doniger is referring to. India is a huge and complex country as are her religions and history.
A generalization of any sort is a fool's errand.

Wendy Doniger's scholarship and her Phd factory at University of Chicago caters to the worst stereotypes and prejudices of western views of Hinduism. Doniger's malevolent and malicious interpretations try to de-legitimize Hindu experiences. De-legitimization of a people and their experience is always a precursor to genocide.

I would say that the 'little country down south' Porrin is referring to is New Zealand, in the South Pacific. Our Prime Minister is a woman and many of the other government positions, both national and local, have been held by women in the last few years. Come and visit us when you can - you will be very warmly received, no matter what your race, religion, or gender. On the whole, our people are tolerant and accepting, and our scenery is second to none!

No, Craig, the status of women has NOT been the highest in Christendom, or Judaism, etc.

It is highest in aboriginal societies (not all of them, please note), especially the ones which trace descent in the female line and are matrilocal, meaning that partners live with or near the woman's kin, or bilocal, like many forager societies. Their religions are rarely scriptural in the sense we understand, though they usually have extremely complex oral traditions that pass their spiritual philosophies through the generations. Look into the Mosuo, Hopi, Iroquois, the Tuareg (tho they are starting to lose the matrilineage from what i read) and so on.

It is the institutional Christian church which barred women from the priesthood, persecuted Christians who didn't knuckle under, including women who preached for example, burned witches and heretics at the stake, and lots of non-witches too, preached female submission to men, on and on. There's lots of info out there, educate yourself about what really went on. Of course male supremacy also took hold among Confucians and Muslims and Hindus, but there are other types of religions out there, the indigenous ones, that rarely get talked about, and many of them have the richest and most advanced understanding to offer when it comes to appreciating, respecting and honoring women, and not subordinating them to men.

Max

For a Hindu critique on wendy doniger's work,
read:
http://rajivmalhotra.sulekha.com/blog/post/2002/09/risa-lila-1-wendy-s-child-syndrome.htm

Bobby, re: “The belief that there is no god is a religous principle, not a scientific one because it cannot be proven. I am taking religion here as anything that is taken on faith not provable fact.”

Bobby, I haven’t yet met an atheist who was 100% certain that there are no deities (including Richard Dawkins). Most of us just don’t see any good evidence that any particular deity exists; therefore, we don’t see any good reason to believe in one or have faith in one. Atheism is not a religious principle – it does not require anything to be taken on faith. It just requires good evidence to precede belief. This is the opposite of faith.

Yes, "Equal respect for human men and women is the solution." And remember also, that religion has to evolve. My life has changed wonderfully since embracing Wicca, and the Goddess aspect. And from Wicca comes deep respect for humans. I have never appreciated being male more in my life. And I have gained a deeper respect for women; especially those who respect themselves.

Andy,

You asked how many Atheists I honestly know? that would be three I know about, including my boyfrind of 2 years, and two frinds I work with.
My statment about Divinity having no gender was not directed to you or any Atheist here, but was about the subject. As far as I'm concerned I made no assumption. No, I can't prove there is a God, and on top of that I'm not obligated to. I didn't come here to debate if theres a higher power because I havent been trying to shove my opinion down everyones throat, so the burdon is not on me try and prove anything. My Atheist friends and I have discussed our positions on many occasions and even though we don't agree, we get along fine because we all understand our opinions came from careful concideration and looking at as many viewpoints as possible. None of us just "assumed" whether or not there is a God. My issue is with people who will resort to anything to win an argument without actually caring about listening to another opinion. Calling someone weak minded and stupid is an obvious means or social control. I don't need a universal holy law to know that's counterproductive and behavior like that leads to trouble.

The article, what there was of it, leaves much to be desired, and is frankly disappointing coming from an academic. The points made by the author about "goddess feminists" would have been on target about fifteen or twenty years ago, when feminist historical revision was in vogue even among academics, but currently one would be hard pressed to find anyone pushing the "wouldn't it be great if women were still in charge" idea.

The problem illustrated by this article is that while historic research and theological arguments are both fluid, the printed word is not. Books and papers written decades ago, reflecting the research or attitudes of an individual author at that time, research and attitudes that may or may not receive wide acceptance by their intended audiences, are still being read and cited as evidence of current thinking or belief.

It's important for readers of history to understand that any given text reflects the individual researcher's interpretation of the historical evidence, an interpretation that may or may not be affected by the researcher's own personal attitudes and is therefore always open to challenge and revision. It's also important that researchers and historians who are looking into the beliefs of religious groups understand that the same processes of research, innovation and revision are at work in theological development. Beliefs that were held quite dearly twenty years ago can be completely out-moded in modern circles. Arguing a moot point is at best a waste of everyone's time, and at worst disseminates misinformation and sows confusion.

April,
The Dr. was talking about NOW, not religions of 2000 years ago. She also was very mistaken about saying Goddesses were all "blood thirsty" in the past, that is not in the least true. Another commenter has made a statement about that.

It is not that "women-good, men-bad". Goodness, my first husband was not bad all the time, and my second husband is not good all the time...and neither am I. We are all human in need of patience and mirth. But our Goddess is not blood thirsty, no more then our God is. They come together and create life...and that life is what we make it.

We make the mistake of not takeing responcibility on what we, as self aware beings, do to each other and our planet. How can we blame God or (that non-entity) Devil for what we, with free choice, do? That is what my religion teaches. Goddess gives me hope, because I see Her love and beauty all around. I do not blame Her for Katrina (men made a mild hurricane into a horrible catastrophe), or for the hungry,homelessness, or crime. It's not my Gods have done this...not in their names are laws passed or bigotry caused.

Blacks were not made and kept slaves in the name of Demeter or Hestia...gays are not kept as equal but seperate in the name of Hermes or Pan,an unjust war is not fought in the name of Athena.