Obama, Beck: Who is Christian? Who decides?

President Obama is an American politician, and American politicians mostly don't get elected if they don't profess a religious faith. On the other hand, Obama is quite intelligent, well educated and likely doesn't buy into the supernaturalism on which conventional religions are based.

So, what I'd expect to find if the truth were known is that Obama is really an agnostic leaning toward atheism, but says what he has to say in order to get elected into office so that he can do the secular things he actually cares about.

Unfortunately, many, if not most, organized religions preach that theirs is the ONLY true Religion.

The worst aspect is those religions that preach that ALL (even children) who don't accept THEIR particular image of God are forever condemned to burning agony or at best, purgatory.

Madness! AND, in fact, EVIL!!!!!

Organized religion is the WORST thing that has happened to human civilization. Just look at Religion's bloody history, and modern day CRAP preached by Beck, Jimmy Swaggart, Bob Jones, AND the Dark Ages Vatican! - - Let alone fundamentalist djihad.

> Mormonism as the fourth Abrahamic faith.

Oh, and, though neither group is likely to appreciate the comparison, it does seem that the Mormon foundational narrative is somewhat similar to the Muslim one.

(Ducks and runs for cover.)

The first thing I do every morning is to give thanks to God. I thank Him every morning for His many blessings, for His love and for salvation through Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son. I also ask Him for forgiveness because I can't relate to people who call themselves Christians and who are so FULL OF HATRED towards President Obama, the Democrats, immigrants and the poor. I can understand if Christians disagree on matters related to abortion, illegal immigration and homosexuality because I also disagree but the last thing that Christ wanted of us is the HATRED that is festering in the hearts of so called Christians. Just read the blogs. I know that the liberal left are angry and obnoxious and so full of themselves but if you read the blogs, the really angry ad hateful postings usually come from people who identify themselves as religious right or conservative Christians.

I FEEL LIKE CHRIST AND ALL THAT OUR LORD STOOD FOR HAS BEEN HIJACKED. Just as Islam has been hijacked by terrorists, the Taliban, and Al-Qaeda, so has the message of CHRIST, OUR LORD AND SAVIOR, being hijacked by people like Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, Franklin Graham, Rush Limbaugh and Pat Robertson.

These so-called Christians spit out the word "liberal" and "socialism" and "progressive taxes" as though those are dirty words and wrongly associate it with Nazi Germany. Yet Christ is a liberal and a socialist. Christ never ever look down at the poor and the sinners. He admonishes us time and time again to feed the poor, look after the widows, and take care of the sick. He didn't join the crowd in stoning the fornicator or the prostitute but instead ask which among us is without sin to throw the first stone. CHRIST NEVER HATE NOR ENCOURAGE HATRED, yet all I see from Christians is hate towards the President, hate towards homosexuals, hate towards illegal immigrants and even hate towards "community organizers" who do good.

WE EVEN QUESTION IF PRESIDENT OBAMA IS A TRUE CHRISTIAN when in our outreach, we always tell non-believers that if they confess their sins and accept Jesus as their personal savior, then they are saved. We did not say we need to do checkups in the future to make sure that they are true Christians.

I believe the true Christian is the one who forgives, and who loves the poor and the sick.

As for the anger about ending the Bush tax cuts (which incidentally was meant to last only 10 years ((and which is unconstitutional if they want to use their definition of constitutional but that is another subject)) so it is not ending the tax cuts but only not extending it); did not Christ say to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's (meaning pay your taxes).

I DO NOT MIND THE POLITICS BUT JUST DO NOT HIJACK MY FAITH. Their actions cause non-believers and even believers to turn away from the salvation through Christ because in their hearts they know this kind of hatred is just not right.

@HarryTam THANK YOU! Very well put.

Personally I am agnostic, but most Christians I know are well balanced like Harry. The only problem with these Christians is that you are polite and quiet. I think you should speak out and take back your faith from the hypocritical haters and dividers who are loud and unaccepting of others.

As for the President, he is sort of like a Christmas Tree in front of a Courthouse. Its a public expression that conveys a sympathy toward the Christian faith, without endorsing it. The President like many others has chosen not to adopt a house of worship in DC. He is not Jimmy Carter or W, or Bill Clinton who showed at least their commitment by regularly attending church. Is a Christian a person who goes to church every Sunday, no. But it is a tell as to what is important in one's life. As to Mormons, they are polytheists who believe in a form of deistic reincarnation. The 4th Abrahamic Faith,is charitable.

This is an interesting topic. As a practicing Mormon myself, I have been embarrassed countless times by the antics and comments of Glenn Beck. He doesn't speak for me or for the Church. I cringed when I heard about his characterization of President Obama's Christianity. As someone who has spent hours defending my Mormon faith while others accuse me of not being Christian despite our deep doctrinal belief in the divinity of Jesus Christ and his saving Atonement, I was upset that another member of my faith would also attack how someone practices their Christianity.

Also, I feel like I need to correct something in Ms. Tenety's original post. As I understand it, "The Great Apostasy" in Mormon teachings is a specific time frame that began as the apostles died in the first century AD following the death of Jesus Christ and lasted until the 1800s when God restored his Church to the earth. It was a time period like "The Middle Ages" or "The Reformation." As the passage quoted above by the author seems to indicate, this period is over (past tense).

However, Ms. Tenety implies that Mormons believe that those who are not baptized into the Mormon faith "participate" (present tense) in The Great Apostasy. This is not what Mormons believe.

Like Mr. Beck, I don't speak for the LDS Church. This is just what I have been taught about The Great Apostasy throughout my life attending weekly Sunday services, preaching as an LDS missionary, and studying as a BYU student. It's a technical correction of semantics, but I believe it completely changes the characterization of Mormon belief in ways that are germane to this topic of who decides whether someone else is Christian. Mormons do not believe that other Christians are not Christian because they are not members of the LDS Church. We are all Christians, for we all believe in the saving grace and power of Jesus Christ.

The answer is in the bible. Those who give from the heart without reward God will reward. Bozo Beck and Sister Sarah got paid for their speeches while telling lies. Obama stepped in after Satan had brought a Recession, Two Wars and chaos/torture/lies around the World. God will be the final judge of man and our book of life tells the story.

@ TexLex

I would also be surprised if Obama really believed in the sillier aspects of the religion, virgin birth, etc. I feel like his real religion is the same as W & HW and Bill Clinton, indeed nearly every president that wasn't assassinated, i.e. the Cult of Power. If he wasn't doing occulty shyte before he became the president, I suspect he has started since. They know who their real masters are.

Oh, and your analysis of the Islam/Mormon thing was right on. One guy receives the whole religion in a neat package that no one else can verify...

Who is a Christian? Let's see. How about all those people who claim they are? How about all those who are "pro-life" yet support every expansion of the death penalty and every war the republicans can dream up? How about about those "do unto others" folks who hate the government except when it forces people to do what they want it to, such as forbid abortions or ban gay marriage? How about those people who marvel at "God's creation" yet support every environmental outrage immaginable? How about those folks who spend Sundays in church, then spend the rest of the week spouting as much hate, bigotry and racism as they can? Somehow, I think all of the above qualify.

I am no longer practicing, but I grew up Mormon and I can tell you that Mormon's definitely are Christian in my mind. The Mormon faith is centered on Jesus Christ being the Savior. Attend a Sunday service and you will hear a lot about Jesus and his teachings. It is everywhere. Also, the Mormon Church does spend a lot of time and resources on actively following the teaching of Jesus. The Mormon Church is usually one of the first relief organizations providing comfort and supplies following natural disasters all over the world. The Mormon Church also has a very effective and well run church welfare program to provide locally. Taking care of the each other in the community and people around the world was one of the things I really liked about being a Mormon. There are some teachings and actions that I do not agree with the Mormon Church over, such as ‘you’re not going to heaven if you’re not a Mormon’ and gay rights. However, I think they are doing their best to try to follow the teachings of Jesus as they see them. I think that is what being "Christian" is all about. The only difference is in the specific details of the theology. In practice, those things like “polytheism” and what not, don’t really seem to matter.

As for Glen Beck, he's just a sensationalist fanatic and I’m embarrassed that he is a Mormon. Why does it even matter if the President is "Christian" or religious at all? I thought we lived in a free country. And really, don't we have better things to talk about?

Sad.

Jesus was a Jewish rabbi, not a Christian, who had a ministry of love and compassion for his fellow man.

So-called "Christians" have never followed Jesus' ministry from Rome in 300-ACE to today.

Christianity has been used as an excuse and cover for hatred and domination over the eons.

This does not reflect Jesus' ministry of compassion and love.

Three Points:
1. All major religions have an identical core tenet embodied in their holy books - Treat others as you would wish to be treated, the "Golden Rule".
2. A large majority of the members of these religions and their leaders frequently fail spectacularly in following the true teachings of their religions both in practice and toleration of the teachings and beliefs of others.
3. The Five Abrahamic Religions: "Mormonism, strictly speaking, would be the "Fourth of Five".
Judaism would be the original release, "Abraham 1.0", and a complete break from existing popular religious systems.
Christianity would be "Abraham 2.0" as early Christians remained within the synagogue as practicing Jews with Christian evolved beliefs until rigid "our way or the highway" leaders made them incompatible with remaining as Jews.
Islam ("Abraham 3.0") was proclaimed as the "perfection" of Christian teachings and practices derived from a new revelation to a new Chosen Prophet. It was only predictable that many 2.0 adherents would resent this implication and 3.0 adherents would be insistent that there was something wrong with those who refused to "upgrade". Both of them were dismissive of 1.0---often violently (Inquisition and Kosovo, anyone?)
Mormonism ("Abraham 4.0" or alternatively "Abraham 2.1") once again claimed that its own divine revelation was the answer to correct all previous versions. (1.0~3.0, at least, found it highly antagonistic to their own versions.) 4.0 added some very novel features and espoused the idea that this version (specifically the generous eternal rewards program, Heaven) was an extremely limited edition with a finite number of tickets to be awarded although it would be possible to apply for retroactive registration for family members.
Out of Persia came yet another teacher who told of a new revelation that would correct and unify all the previous versions and incorporate other operating systems. Baha'i ("Abraham 5.0") has never gotten the same momentum as 1.0~4.0 but it really got the previous "Perfect and Final" version (3.0) very riled up, again violently as expected. (See the widespread violent acts against the Baha'i in Persia/Iran.)
>>>>> Hey, 1.0 ~ 5.0!! Can we somehow muster up some love and tolerance to return to the single commonality, the Golden Rule? Peace!

It seems as if a lot of people are in for quite a surprise when they find out that God looks at the person, not the "label" whether the label is self-imposed or imposed by others.

God's Plan is, ultimately, for ALL to be with God in God's Kingdom, this is the GOOD NEWS that we were asked to PROCLAIM.

God's Plan, which God has had since before creation, is unfolding before our very eyes and will come to Fruition.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Yarbroughz,

Hilarious and creative posting @ 6:34 p.m. Thanks for the humor. Still laughing.

Christians believe in Jesus who died on the cross for our sins. It requires faith, confession and belief. No one can offer perfection to match that sacrifice on the cross of Jesus suffering all our sin. This a free gift given to all who ask and confess and change their heart. This is between you and your maker. No one knows your heart but Him. Who am I to say one is saved or not?
i can say that with confession your heart should reflect and desire change. Good works do not get you to heaven but they show your heart.
I find it silly they wish to attack Beck. Beck is but one man and he has done a wonderful job of educating and informing. This movement was to clean up government and bring back honor and integrity to those who serve in this country. So many have served to profit ignoring the people. We have seen an administration that used trickery to pass bills, gives fraudulent numbers on bills, bribes for votes, double talks, deceives, and bold face lies. He can claim to be a Christian which is something I have never heard but he sure does not reflect Christian values.
If you sat in a so called church that preached liberation theology which is against the principles laid out for salvation in the Bible for years listening to this spewed hatred, your judgement deserves to be questioned. Liberation theology is demanding one to profit from the misery of those who you deem persecuted in our history even though no one may have done a thing to you. Blacks are not the only people who have been persecuted in this country or in the world for that matter. That is sick sick sick. Sitting around trying to profit off the misery of others is thievery.

President Obama is an American politician, and American politicians mostly don't get elected if they don't profess a religious faith. On the other hand, Obama is quite intelligent, well educated and likely doesn't buy into the supernaturalism on which conventional religions are based.
So, what I'd expect to find if the truth were known is that Obama is really an agnostic leaning toward atheism, but says what he has to say in order to get elected into office so that he can do the secular things he actually cares about.
Posted by: TexLex | September
_________________

So, *TexLex* thinks that Mr. Obama had to "lie" to get elected, but that is okay so that he can do what he wants to do. IOW, the end justifies the means.

The problem is, how does one trust a liar? Is it okay to have a liar as the president. Why should anyone trust someone who will lie about something as basic as their belief system?

Glen Beck decides if you're Christian. Ann Coulter decides if you're an atheist. Sarah Palin decides if you're a "real American".

And America decided on election day that Barack Obama was the president of the United States of America.

Which world do you want to live in?

I am totally amazed at the hatred, distortions and outright lies by the self appointed deity (Beck,Palin) and the rest of the wing nut crowd.

The American people are not that stupid and I know will recover their sanity by November.

Beck, seems to think he is the modern day nut case, Joseph Smith. The sad thing is that he is allowed a free run on his fanatical ideas.

MichaelJones1:
"...Mormons do not believe that other Christians are not Christian because they are not members of the LDS Church. We are all Christians, for we all believe in the saving grace and power of Jesus Christ."
----------------------------------------------
Oh really? Than why do need all the BS from that false prophet, Joseph Smith? Muslims also believe in Jesus and have their own false prophet. By your definition they're Christians too.

I thought to be a president you need to be democratically elected, which Obama was. Why is his faith important as long as he is not imposing it on anyone. For a country that calls itself first world too many ignoramus are around.it's unfortunate that people who have not crossed their town till last year can still become celebrities and influence others with their arrogant ignorance ( think Sarah palin)

People will continue to make judgments about other folks' religion (or lack thereof). It's in our DNA, and part of that DNA insists that we must be right in our beliefs (otherwise, why believe them?) and that others who disagree with us must be in error, which probably proceeds from them being stupid and morally degenerate to boot. We can't really avoid that, apparently, however much we should. Want a poster child for this phenomenon? How about Glenn Beck?

Full disclosure: I am a committed Christian but not a conservative evangelical like my parents. My mother, for all her strongly held beliefs about her Christian faith (trust me, she was determined!), managed to teach me a great lesson about how we should act toward those who believe differently than we. When as I child I asked her she why she treated my Jewish friend with all the love and respect she afforded to those within our Christian congregation (rather than disdaining him because he was a non-Christian), her response was spot on. She said, "When there's judging to be done, it's God's job to do it. I shouldn't presume to do GOD's job. However, God did give ME a job. MY job to love God's children, not to judge them." Great lesson from a high-principled and saintly woman who happened to be a Christian. Rest in peace, Mom.

Would that all persons of faith (and those of no faith as well) would live by that advice.

Beck doomed Romney so Palin could run and take the hit for republicans.

Palin in 2012 and ... who's the next neo-con in line to fuss-up the country??

Liberation Theology ... republican demand to LIBERATE more of the Middle Class's money to support their life style.
Middle Class ... the republican cash cow.

Judas Jones said: "Oh, and your analysis of the Islam/Mormon thing was right on. One guy receives the whole religion in a neat package that no one else can verify..."

Yeah, kinda like Moses and those ten commandment tablets.

I guess we have the answer in this spate of hate. When people had to justify their behavior by actually facing the the person to be a clown, they were much less willing to do so. Modern Religion has failed to adapt to this, some becoming more biased, others by whistling past the grave yard. There was an editorial a while back on why churches weren't preaching to the problems: loud denunciations of homosexuals, for example, but nothing about the local bank president who refused to work with homeowners to save their homes. Because churches didn't want to live with the fact that the homosexuals would identify themselves, and the bankers would move to other churches where their behavior would be accepted in return for that collection plate envelope. So it doesn't matter -- I think the Mormon argument in general, that churches have to churches again, instead of entertainment over the weekend, has some seed of truth to it.

And it is a shame what Glenn Beck is doing to undermine even that saving grace of religion. And let's face it, Mormonism is akin to Islam, a post-Christian faith. Original Mormonism shared many customs with Muslims until they were persecuted in America, a post-Christian prophet, polygamy, degradation of women; if you look closely, Mormonism has more in common with Islam than any other religion. You have to wonder where Joseph Smith got the idea.

The issue is a fabulous example of how religion crisps the brain.

One person says, in effect that one’s own profession is insufficient, that we should be leave it to others to tell us if we are Christian.

Another loves Beck because “he’s done so much”, which presumably means dividing the Christians and those who according to him aren’t “real Christians” and by denigrating the Martin Luther King Birthday by playing the role of "Mr. Interlocutor", in his white face minstrel act.

Irony upon irony. The Founding Fathers, and the people at large, including Jefferson, Madison, Washington, Franklin and Paine were agnostics or atheists, but understanding the deleterious effects that religion and the real threat to human freedom, which in the past and in the future will continue to pose, attempted to prevent it and its institutions from being embedded in the fabric of our government by adopting Constitutional provisions, such as:

Article VI, Para.3 which reads: “no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States, ”

And, Fhe First Amendment; “Congress shall make no law respecting an Establishment of Religion.”

But the beat goes on despite, as Jefferson noted:

“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.”
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

You can be a Christian and disagree with whoever.. that would include Presidents.I agree spitting out vile comments is unchristian but to say the President could have a socialist agenda and might ruin a country is NOT unchristian.God gave us a brain to think and then make up our mind about things including politics.We might not be right but we still have the God given right to say what we truly believe.Jesus when He walked the earth confronted the Pharisees on many points because He disagreed with what they were telling the people also the disciples after Him.Christians shouldnt be afraid to do the same but it should be done as if Christ was standind beside you (which He is by the way)

obama carries a statue of the hindu monkey god, a false idol...
obama cannot be a Christian for that...

Some quotes that all who consider themselves Christians should consider. These were not made by Christians, but embody what Christ (in my understanding) tried to teach, or others have observed about Christianity and Christians:

"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and study it."
(Rabbi Hillel, in the first or second generation before the Common Era)

(Christ most likely rephrased the above as "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", popularly known as the Golden Rule.)

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
(Mohandas K. Gandhi, date unknown)

"I came to the conclusion long ago … that all religions were true and also that all had some error in them, and whilst I hold by my own, I should hold others as dear as Hinduism. So we can only pray, if we are Hindus, not that a Christian should become a Hindu … But our innermost prayer should be a Hindu should be a better Hindu, a Muslim a better Muslim, a Christian a better Christian."
(Mohandas K. Ghandi, printed in Young India 19 January 1928)

The last quote from Ghandi does not include anything about any of the other great religions of the world (Judaism, Confucianism, Daoism, etc.), but in India and South Africa (the two places he spent the majority of his life), Ghandi only had major acquaintance with Hinduism, Islam and Christianity.

Most conservative Christians would affirm 6 fundamental beliefs (Conservative Christianity is far and away the most popular form of Christianity in American and the reference point for most professing Christians. The reference point is not the liberal Washington post and its secular humanist readers.):

1. The Bible was written by God through the Holy Spirit and contains no errors.
2. Jesus Christ is fully God.
3. Jesus Christ was born of a virgin.
4. Jesus Christ died on the Cross to redeem all of mankind from the death penalty of their sin (eternal destruction in hell), and apart from Jesus Christ you cannot be right with God.
5. Jesus Christ was resurrected from the grave in his body, ascended to heaven, and is now at the right hand of the Father.
6. Jesus Christ will return to judge the world.

If you believe those things then you are a Christian; if you do not believe those things then you may believe in something, but it is not Christianity in any sense.

I found a nice skit on writing.com. It's a conversation between Jesus Christ and Glenn Beck, and Jesus gives his opinion on whether or not Beck is Christian. Check it out.

http://www.Writing.Com/main/view_item/item_id/1703628-No-I-in-Jesus

Like many I suspect President Obama is a Christian for political reasons. Hence, his involvement with Rev. Wright. I back up this opinion, given the fact that he does not take his family to church. Any Church. The vast majority of Christians are concerned about the Christian upbringing of their children, as well as worshiping together. All of this is just conjecture on my part, but worthy of thought.

The "Speech Giver" is a Christian,he is a Muslim, he is a Progressive,he is a Socialist, he is a Communist,he is a Liberal, he is a MODERATE DEMOCRAT. He is the WORST CAREER POLITICIAN that has ever served WE THE PEOPLE. The "Speech Giver" lives a life telling lies for one purpose. "HIMSELF" Why was he a community organizer? To make contacts with the RICH like Rezko who financed his 1.5 million dollar home below cost. Are the people any better on the South side of Chicago because of his hard work or has the "Speech Giver" gained from it?

It is very simple ALL Christians believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior. Religions are tied into a set of beliefs. The many denominations believe in theirs. Some say no dancing,drinking or smoking. Catholics love to drink LOL!!!

You pundits want to make it Beck , "Speech Giver" and RELIGION thing. Lets make it a CHARACTER and HONOR thing like Beck pointed out 8/28.

The "Speech Giver" lacks CHARACTER and HONOR or he would not be LYING to WE THE PEOPLE about everything in HIS AGENDA !!! It was not a TAX to have to mandatory Health-care. But now that he knows it will lose in court, it is a TAX!!! Oh and sooooo much for it all being on CSPAN.

TERM LIMITS NOW !!

FAIR TAX NOW !!

For me, this is all a silly, irrelevant discussion. Most people who claim to be believers do so because of societal peer pressure. I live among the Mormons because I married a Mormon. But, like all other religions and particularly those that feel compelled to evangelize, I tend to see them as populated by people who look for simple, easy answers to the mysteries of life and are simply too intellectually lazy to do the hard work science requires in the search for enduring knowledge and understanding.

I find it perverse in these modern times when science and empirics has revealed the true nature of a dynamic Cosmos that is in constant states of flux--creation, destruction, re-creation--and is far vaster than anyone had ever comprehended, that we still cling to these old superstitions. It persists because people are fearful, lazy and fully willing to turn these questions over to anti-intellectual hacks who use such dialogues to control the hearts and minds of such sheep-like people and make a tidy profit in the process.

Ever notice how all of these large denominations spend most of their time collecting and counting money? To me, that is what most of them are seeking rather than enlightenment.

Why are conservatives so much more likely to accept the fundamentalist, evangelical type religions? Because it does not require anything of you other than strict obedience and a zealous devotion that brooks no challenge or compromise.

Conservatives tend to seek simplicity. They detest complexity. That is why they so childishly accept the delusional hokum that a single, mysterious, SuperBeing somewhere out there created all things in the Cosmos for some unknown reason that only He understands. And of course this SuperBing--this God, if you will--must be an older white human male because as we know older white human males are superior in every way to all other life forms.

Mormonism rejectcts important componenets of Christianity, although it's loosely tied to the Protestant tradition, which includes everything from snake handling to Unitarianism and Christian Science. Given that context almost anything with a weak link to a Christian tradition can apply. It's no wonder some people identify as spiritual rather than place themselves within such a heterogeneous tradition, while others claim to be the only true adherencts of that tradition. The chose of liberation theology was an odd one given its identification with Latin American Catholicism. Protestants from snake handlers to semi-agnistic Unitarians used to be united in their hatred of all things Catholic. Serious religious people, particularly Christians should take issue with Beck's theological incoherence, but also recognize the intellectual and ecclesiastic incoherence of the Christian tradition. the only one who can say if Obama is a Christian is Obama himself. Noatbly, his churchgoing habits aren't much different from those of our previous president--someone who seemed to barely have a "Dummies Guide to Christianty" understanding of the Bible, but a clear understanding of how to pander evangelical voters.

I am a proud Atheist. I find all religions to be nothing but childish fantasies that attract simple minded idiots who prefer to not have to do the hard work that science demands to find the nature of reality.

Look. The Answer is right before you in Nature itself. All things simply recycle--even the Universe itself will one day fly apart as new Universes are popping up out of the same recycling process that created this one. Scientists are very close to discovering the existence of extra dimensions.

But, I digress. Just look around you. It is Autumn. The leaves are dying and falling to the ground. They will be absorbed into the earth, decay and their constituent parts serves as the nutrients for other living things which will also die and serve the same useful purpose. The electrons buzzing about in our brains that provide the fuel for consciousness do not die. They simply find a new home as part of some other conscious life form that itself is recycling through its own process.

One of the world's most renowned scientists, Steven Hawking has renounced his former assertion of the existence of God and proclaimed that new discoveries imply that God is not necessary for Creation and that Universes being born and dying are as common as every other element of creation.

When we die, all that dies is this artificial identity we have created. Our consciousness is all part of the same recycling process. It isn't reincarnation. It is just simply that conscious energy is fixed. And it will always find a new home when its present residence is no longer feasible. And it doesn't really care what the form of that new home is.

Beck:

www.glennbeckisnotmartinlutherkingjr.com

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201005280025

President Obama:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTMrs9vpoqg

Vice President Biden on Medicare:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/video/VP-Biden-Sets-the-Record-Straight-on-Medicare

After President Obama won, Fox "News" stepped up its campaign a notch, encouraging hostility and a mob mentality. You see it regurgitated here on the blogs often. I intend to send a clear message to Roger Ailes, founder and president of Fox "News" (and former Nixon political strategist) this November.

In the meantime progress moves slowly while every advancement not only toward pulling us up from the mire of an economy that was shattered and on the verge of collapse, but helping small businesses and community banks, providing training to vets for green technology industries, healthcare reform legislation, and providing incentives to children seeking a post-graduate degree. The middle class paid the lowest federal taxes in decades while Fox "News" encouraged a rally to be held on April 15, with signs that were an embarrassment to our country. Efforts to move our country forward and to rise above venal corruption and foul play have been smeared and threatened with fillibusters.

Let's vanquish the fearmongering, race-baiting, obstructionist campaign of the far right once and for all and run them out on a rail; let's show the bullies that they may be portraying us as weak, but the content of our character will prevail

Now they are stake-claiming virtue by way of religion and firing up their campaign to divide and conquer on the most destructive and lowest level known to man - even to the point of congregating at the WTC to express their religious intolerance. The last time someone did that, he flew planes into the buildings.

We will vote in November. We are not going to take this lying down.

Why, in God's name would the Washington Post print such venom. Why are you even giving credibility to someone (bekc) who is obviously such a negative promoting person. Why?

How disappointing for Jesus that those who use his last name don't denounce the political treachery of Glenn Beck Christians, the vile hatred of Fred Phelps and the criminal racketeering of the Catholic Church that hides it's "ebephile" priest from civil prosecution. They're no better than Muslims who don't denounce their murderous terrorists.

Abraham was the original Satan and is dancing in delight to Beck's right-wing, shock-jock demagoguery.

All Religion is phony & fake full of lies, bigotry & hate for others who are not like them!!

The President of the United States is president of ALL THE PEOPLE, that includes Christians & non-Christians.

Do the Christians believe that the President works for them and them alone?

Does that mean that a Christian President like Bush only works on behalf of Christians? Does that mean that the rest of the people in America can just convert to their brand of Kool-aid or have NO VOICE IN GOVERNMENT?

Is that what a Christian President is these days? Look where that got us under Bush? TRILLIONS IN DEBT, A NATION LEFT IN SHAMBLES FROM CORRUPTION OF THE CHRISTIAN KIND. 2 WARS WITH OVER 9,000 US TROOPS DEAD! ALL BECAUSE OF A CHRISTIAN PRESIDENT AND FOR WHAT...THE SAKE OF Christianity? What a wast of human life!!

AMERICA IS NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION!!

YOU PHOOEY FAKE CHRISTIANS ARE GOING TO GET MORE PEOPLE KILLED FOR THE SAKE OF YOUR FAKE RELIGION.

KNOW GOD; NO PEACE

NO GOD; KNOW PEACE

NEVER EVER TRUST A REPUBLICAN AND NEVER TRUST A CHRISTIAN EVER AGAIN...THEY BOTH LIE LIKE DOGS & NEED TO BE PUT DOWN (in the voting booth)!

half truths to confuse the idiots who believe the BS lies!

The Jewish traveling rabbi Jesus, should he magically appear in this country, would be first asked for a birth certificate, and then chased out of town by the "real Americans", aka "good Christians, because of his socialist teachings.

Mormonism teaches that Jesus was a god and that you and I can become a god as well if we do what is right. That is clearly not Orthodox Christianity.

Liberal Christianity teaches that the morals Jesus taught are important but that it is NOT important that Jesus actually rose from the dead. Clearly that is NOT orthodox Christianity.

Orthodox Christianity teaches that Jesus is the only begotten Son of God who died and rose physically from the dead, that all who believe in him do not become gods but simply are promised everlasting life.

>>>>> Hey, 1.0 ~ 5.0!! Can we somehow muster up some love and tolerance to return to the >>single commonality, the Golden Rule? Peace!

YARBROUGHZ,

As I'm sure you know, Baha'is have been trying very hard to do just that:

"Consort with all men, O people of Baha, in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and goodwill. If it be accepted, if it fulfill its purpose, your object is attained. If anyone should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning, it is the fountain of the light of wisdom and understanding."

(Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 15)

After Obama gave his speech in Germany during the election he was accused of being a "Bahaist":

http://2164th.blogspot.com/2008/07/citizen-of-world-barack-obama-bahaist.html

Most conservative Christians would affirm 6 fundamental beliefs (Conservative Christianity is far and away the most popular form of Christianity in American and the reference point for most professing Christians. The reference point is not the liberal Washington post and its secular humanist readers.):

1. The Bible was written by God through the Holy Spirit and contains no errors.
2. Jesus Christ is fully God.
3. Jesus Christ was born of a virgin.
4. Jesus Christ died on the Cross to redeem all of mankind from the death penalty of their sin (eternal destruction in hell), and apart from Jesus Christ you cannot be right with God.
5. Jesus Christ was resurrected from the grave in his body, ascended to heaven, and is now at the right hand of the Father.
6. Jesus Christ will return to judge the world.

If you believe those things then you are a Christian; if you do not believe those things then you may believe in something, but it is not Christianity in any sense.
______________________________________

That's one way of looking at it, but Jesus himself says something in the Bible that defies some of what you've just mentioned because unless true Christians believe THIS, you argument could be debated.

Matt. 22:34-46 "After the Pharisees heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they came together in one group. And one of them, versed in the Law, asked, testing him: “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”
Now while the Pharisees were gathered together Jesus asked them: “What do YOU think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him: “David’s.” He said to them: “How, then, is it that David by inspiration calls him ‘Lord,’ saying, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet”’? If, therefore, David calls him ‘Lord,’ how is he his son?” And nobody was able to say a word in reply to him, nor did anyone dare from that day on to question him any further."

Those verses proves true Christians will FIRST acknowledge Jesus Father just as Christ did. Jesus did not call himself "God", he gave that headship to his Father. Everything else in the Bible starts to make sense after this.

IGNORANTHILLBILLY,

"If you believe those things then you are a Christian; if you do not believe those things then you may believe in something, but it is not Christianity in any sense."

Can you please list the things that indicate that I might be a redneck?

Thanks in advance.

To JAXA S70
Here is a list of the "simple minded idiots who prefer to not have to do the hard work that science demands to find the nature of reality." These are men who believed in God

Albert Einstein
William Kelvin
Gregor Mendel
Sir Isaac Newton
Copernicus
Galileo
Sir Francis Bacon

And you do realize by saying that Stephen Hawking does not believe in God anymore as proof for your arguments you are saying people need to put their faith in what Stephen Hawking says. Either way you are still saying that faith is necessary.

Long ago, Sir Richard Burton had it figured out: "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself."

In 2007, the Vatican released a document which said, according to an MSNBC report:

“Christ ‘established here on earth’ only one church,' the document said. The other communities 'cannot be called ‘churches’ in the proper sense” because they do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ’s original apostles."

So Catholics don't think Protestants are true Christians. That's OK because many Evangelical Protestants consider Catholics to not be true Christians because they believe in sacraments, holy works, and extra-biblical Church tradition.

Christianity is a huge squabbling family that only agrees that Jesus was somebody special. That disunity is a sign of Christian apostasy.

John Wesley, the founder of Methodism wrote in his sermon, "The More Excellent Way" the following indictment of Christianity:

"The cause of this [decline of spiritual gifts following Constantine] was not, (as has been vulgarly supposed,) `because there was no more occasion for them,' because all the world was become Christians. This is a miserable mistake; not a twentieth part of it was then nominally Christian. The real cause was, `the love of many,' almost of all Christians, so called, was `waxed cold.' The Christians had no more of the Spirit of Christ than the other Heathens. The Son of Man, when he came to examine his Church, could hardly `find faith upon earth.' This was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian Church; because the Christians were turned Heathens again, and had only a dead form left."

Roger Williams, pastor of the oldest Baptist Church in America at Providence, Rhode Island, refused to continue as pastor on the grounds that, "There is no regularly-constituted church on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any Church ordinance: nor can there be, until new apostles are sent by the great Head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking." (Picturesque America, or the Land We Live In, ed. William Cullen Bryant, New York: D. Appleton and Co., 1872, vol. 1, p. 502.)

Williams also said, "The apostasy... hath so far corrupted all, that there can be no recovery out of that apostasy until Christ shall send forth new apostles to plant churches anew." (Underhill, Edward, "Struggles and Triumphs of Religious Liberty", cited in William F. Anderson, "Apostasy or Succession, Which?", pp. 238-39)

The message of Mormonism is that God himself intervened to restore that which was lost due apostasy. He sent forth new apostles to plant his Church among mankind again.

The Great Apostasy is easily established by a brief study of history. If you would like a short timeline of the apostasy, please visit:

http://www.examiner.com/lds-church-in-national/apostasy-and-restoration-step-by-step-part-1

Who is a Christian? Let's see. How about all those people who claim they are? How about all those who are "pro-life" yet support every expansion of the death penalty and every war the republicans can dream up? How about about those "do unto others" folks who hate the government except when it forces people to do what they want it to, such as forbid abortions or ban gay marriage? How about those people who marvel at "God's creation" yet support every environmental outrage immaginable? How about those folks who spend Sundays in church, then spend the rest of the week spouting as much hate, bigotry and racism as they can? Somehow, I think all of the above qualify.
Posted by: Pearl77
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A question I would raise is, "Are these "facts" which you are citing, or merely stereotypes?" Did you know that the Dalai Lama is opposed to abortion? Or that Gandhi was? Or that Martin Luther King was?

Do these people fall under your stereotype of people who oppose abortion?

And did you know that it was Democrat, Lyndon Johnson who started the war in Vietnam and another Democrat, Truman who nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

I respectfully request you to re-examine your views.

I do not want to pretend, "Oh, it is the Republicans who are actually good." Not so. Bush did start the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. But not all wars in our history were started by Republicans.

And not everyone who opposes abortion is a hateful person.

A Christian, as the term is used today, can be anybody who believes in just about anything. Jesus has no copyright on the term. But those who are followers of Jesus can be identified by doing the kinds of things Jesus did for the same reasons he did them. Jesus never pronounced his followers Christian. That term was adopted by believers themselves.

Monty Keeling

alientech

You wrote in reply to MichaelJones1, "Muslims also believe in Jesus and have their own false prophet. By your definition they're Christians too."

Muslims do not believe that Jesus is God-Incarnate but that Jesus is merely a prophet, as a matter of fact from what I hear the "god of islam", who happens to be satan, gets mighty perturbed if anyone claims that Jesus is God-Incarnate.

At the very "heart" of Christianity is that God became One of us.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

First, let me be clear. Jesus Christ died on the cross for me. He is my Savior. Without him I am doomed. And, yes, I am a Mormon. ...I have a theory that most-not all- but most people that believe Mormons aren't Christians have very little first-hand knowledge about our church. Usually they have only heard what others (who who also have little first-hand knowledge) are saying.
Those who have first-hand knowledge and are willing to be counted see thing differently.
One example...
On 1997-NOV-21, former U.S. President Jimmy Carter criticized SBC leaders for saying that Mormons are not Christians: They "are trying to act as the Pharisees did, who were condemned by Christ, in trying to define who can and cannot be considered an acceptable person in the eyes of God...In other words they are making judgments on behalf of God. I think that's wrong."

Anyway--my advice? If your curious about any religion seek out an official source. In our case www.mormon.org is good place to start. And before you're done go to the real source. As Jesus taught, ask God.
Bruce Brand

This question of who is Christian and who isn't has been with Christianity since practically the beginning. The disciples of Jesus in the Gospels questioned why Jesus would associate closely with certain people, expressing a mentality of "surely he cannot be one of us." Paul's letters subsequently comment on the problem of various Christians identifying themselves by "I follow Paul," "I follow Barnabas," or "I follow Aquinas." Christianity was spreading, and different teachers were leading different communities and developing different traditions. Before this, a similar dispute had arisen over the identities of Jewish and Gentile Christians, and whether Gentiles should be forced to abide by Jewish law. All of these disputes essentially boiled down to defining who is Christian and who gets to decide who is Christian.

Eventually, a series of church councils established formal theology, adopted a canon, and defined Christian from heretic. Even this never really created unity in Christianity, though. Competing theologies and traditions remained. East split from West, and finally the West splintered with the Protestant Reformation. Protestants have been at a loss ever since for how to deal with heresy. When a group like the Mormons takes a bit of Christian terminology, but then entirely rewrites the theology, the identity of the deity, and the nature of our relationship with that deity, the Catholic Church would have simply called an inquisition in the past. Protestants managed a bit of persecution against Mormons, but never really accomplished a strong opposition to them, probably because it's harder to argue for theological consistency and unity when yours is the tradition that smashed that all to bits.

Ultimately, if the Christian message is true, God will decide in the final judgment who is Christian and who is not, and those who are jostling among themselves to claim that power on earth of defining Christianity may be in for quite a surprise. On the other hand, those who claim to be Christians, but who openly tolerate anything and don't keep themselves separate from obvious violations of Christian teaching may likewise be in for a surprise. This is a great challenge of Christianity. God will know his own, and to know on earth who is and is not Christian is to know the mind of God.

Christ: I want to thank Sarah and Glenn for last Saturday. For any of you posters that insist they are not truly Christian, I am at a loss as to your authority. The Great Apostasy still exists here on Earth, if you are not aware of it, you may be part of it if you are a believer, insisting to know the truth. The Devil has often created schismatic churches to waylay those searching for the truth. The Devil is very powerful and has the ability to sway humans to her path. She can visit in the Spirit and tell humans what to do, often times pretending to be God or some other benevolent spirit. In a low tech environment without any information to the contrary it was easy to create churches with doctrine that strayed from the truth. a True Believer searching for the Light needs to be aware that some that pretend talk to God do not. Some error is easy to detect. Many teachings are refuted by their opposition to the Law which is found in the Holy Bible. I know the Mormon Church follows GOD and they are Good People. To say they are not Christian is an error. I think it is important to stick to basics before one wants to explore advance concepts of spiritualization. You know that there are some actions which God does not condone. My advice to is to stop listening to your preacher, many of which are on my bad side, and to throughly review the major works of Scripture which are available. Then we can have a discussion. Im watching.

As a non-theist, non-religious person, I think the less said about the religion of any politician the better. Politics and religion have nothing to do with each other, and I would prefer that religion be left out of politics, and vice-versa.

The history of humankind indicates that when the two are mixed, the result are often tragic, and sometimes result in monstrous crimes against humanity.

I would oppose the election of anyone who was a member of an actively violent faith that called for the submission of all other religions to its beliefs. At present, Islam is such a religion.

President Obama is not a Christian.

Obama believes that all should be free to worship God according to their own tradition and their own conscience. He does not believe that those who do not share his own religious perspective will burn in hell for all eternity. He believes that women, gays and lesbians, and racial minorities should be afforded full rights under the law. He believes that all Americans should have access to decent health care, regardless of their ability to pay. He believes that constructive engagement needs to be a hallmark of the way we deal with enemies; that America needs to do to others, as we would expect others to do to America. He believes that government can have a positive role in the lives of ordinary people, when its power is exercised prudently. Obama respects diverse points of view, and does not believe that people who disagree with him are fundamentally evil.

All of these principles are rarely shared in the contemporary Christian community, particularly in the U.S.

So, no, Obama is probably not a Christian.

It is interesting that once Elizabeth gets done mis-labeling The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints by rudely naming them what the popular press frequently calls them "The Church of Latter-Day Saints", she then cites people calling mormons a non-christian fourth Abrahamic faith. Elizabeth then changes direction and goes on to cite people who label Obama's faith. After feeling that pain she suggests maybye we should not label people. I guess it is not too hard to see who Elizabeth is being hard on and who she likes. I hope everyone understands this article is tying two favorite liberal themes together - beat down Beck and his religion for talking about how the country is being guided and prop up Obama regardless of the way he guides the country.

Let us appreciate each other and celebrate the positive things each of us brings to society. Let us avoid personal attacks while we discuss legitimate issues of our day.

I have no particular opinion of Mormonism, however, it does enlighten me a little about how Glenn Beck can come out with some of the crazy stuff he does. He thinks he has had a revelation and is destined to be a great leader. Not so much different than say, a Warren Jeffs the polygamist leader. Once you get into that mind frame and understand the concept of revelation to the Mormons you understand him. Really Mormonism and Muslims are very close; both believe that Jesus was a prophet but that a prophet came later that fully disclosed the truth. Only men can have a direct line to God in Mormonism. Both Islam and Mormonism have strong ties to polygamy. Both believe women should be subservient to men. As for Glenn Beck claiming that Obama is not a Christian. I would say that Obama is more Christian than Beck based on his respect and caring for the poor, uneducated and disenfranchised. Beck is just a pitiful name caller preying on hatetriots in America and claiming it is religion.

I have no particular opinion of Mormonism, however, it does enlighten me a little about how Glenn Beck can come out with some of the crazy stuff he does. He thinks he has had a revelation and is destined to be a great leader. Not so much different than say, a Warren Jeffs the polygamist leader. Once you get into that mind frame and understand the concept of revelation to the Mormons you understand him. Really Mormonism and Muslims are very close; both believe that Jesus was a prophet but that a prophet came later that fully disclosed the truth. Only men can have a direct line to God in Mormonism. Both Islam and Mormonism have strong ties to polygamy. Both believe women should be subservient to men. As for Glenn Beck claiming that Obama is not a Christian. I would say that Obama is more Christian than Beck based on his respect and caring for the poor, uneducated and disenfranchised. Beck is just a pitiful name caller preying on hatetriots in America and claiming it is religion.

If Beck is a Christian, then why does he LIE constantly?