Murder in the name of honor and caste

Aseem,

I congratulate you on speaking out about the Dalit. The word Dalit means oppressed, and the Dalit are the truly wretched of the earth. There are 250,000,000 of them in India, where they earn as little as 1 USD per day.

Although there are subcategories of Dalit who have done quite well, the majority live in wretched squalor. They are forced to clean sewage with their hands. Crimes against them generally go unpunished.

Although caste is not permitted in Islam, there are more than one million Dalit in Pakistan. There are Dalit in Bangladesh, as well. In fact, they are all over Asia.

There are now Dalit academics in the United States trying desperately to get the world to attend to the plight of these desperate people. I have, in the past, asked David Waters to post on them. It is good to see Aseem's piece here, but it should be showcased on the main page.

Last year, the first international conference on untouchability was held. Dalit.org is also doing all it can to publicize the plight of these millions of enslaved peoples. None of this is enough.

The links below will give you some idea of what the Dalit go through. On the youtube video, you will see the plight of Dalit women, the Dalit of the Dalit.

Dalit.org
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Dalit.org&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBxy1R0jitM&feature=related

When the British abolished suttee, the locals protested that suttee was their custom. The British replied it was their custom to hang anyone who practiced it. Suttee stopped. The problem here is that Indian society is totally hypocritical; the caste system continues because they wish it to. Execute enough perpetrators and enlightened self interest will start to prevail.

The problem here is that human beings are different but we want to treat them the same. In the lack of clarity in our thinking, our ideology, we confuse that human beings are individually known by their actions and that a human's nature can be statistically (population based) largely predicted by their genetic and social background.

The persistence of aristocracy in Europe, misogyny through out the world, black and white churches in the US, and monarchy in Saudi arabia are testament to our inability to separate statistical from anecdotal reasoning.

Oppression is wrong. Any argument to the contrary can only be valid in that brief oppression builds long term freedom.

India has much recovery to do. The laws of the muslim colonialist and anglican colonialist for the last 1000 years could not destroy class / caste distinction in India (let alone their own homelands). With the spur of secularism and humanism, with the scriptures that repeatedly denounce caste in Hinduism, India can and has been addressing the problems of caste. It needs to do a lot more.

I believe this is based in economic and political freedom that will propagate into a dynamic modern society (and thus less secure one for individuals) that will upend the customs and force each individual to fend for and become themselves individually. Of course modernization has its price. But that is a price that India needs to pay to liberate the individuals that are oppressed by a cultural system (as do all ancient systems of oppression based on group identity, the last of which, I suspect, will be the male female oppressions). As the Taitreya Upanishad says - one is trying to get to a point beyond distinctions, beyond caste.

hariaum

I am a Hindu dalit who was denied admissions into Hindu temples many times in our village because I was born an 'untouchable'. Dr.Shukla forgets to mention that Manusrmuti ( a Hindu scripture) commands Hindus on how to treat untouchables. Untouchability is a phenomenon born out of Hindu caste system. There is no equivalence between Untouchability faced by Dalits in India and racism that exists in the West. Blacks and other minorities are faring much much better than the segregation and humiliation faced by Dalits in India. Dr.Shukla is hypocritical when he equates them. The British abolished Suttee system, the burning of widows on funeral pyres of husbands that was practiced by Hindus for millenia. Now, thanks to multicultural sensitivities that are dominating the global arena, the plight of Dalits is going unnoticed in today's world.

The Indian subcontinent's caste system seem to transcend even religious identity. Not only in India, but even in Sri Lanka, Nepal, Pakistan and Bangladesh, Dalit conversions to Islam, Christianity,Sikhism, Buddhism etc do not seem to insulate the Dalits from the oppressive consequences of having been born to Dalit parents. Until the governments of India,Sri Lanka, Nepal, Pakistan and Bangladesh enforce their laws prohibiting the practice of caste system along with elimination of incentives to declare one's caste to benefit from affirmative action benefits in employment, access to higher education etc., the caste millstones will be around the necks of those born in the South Asian subcontinent.

The honor killings such as the one that is being discussed will not disappear unless the perpetrators are tried and hanged for their dastardly act. I have also read recently about am Islamic fundamentalist group chopping off the hand of a Christian professor in Kerala for the "sin" of posing a provocative question in an examination for B.Com degree examination. India will never progress socially as long as its secularism does not muster the courage to have one set of laws for all of its citizens regardless of religion, caste etc. Societal benefits to the disadvantages such as affirmative action programs should be based on economic deprivation of individuals and not based on one's caste or creed.

It was not so long ago the United States had slaves, who were treated with the same equivalence as Dalits in Asia. I have no doubt in time the Caste system will be abolished in India.
Manusmurti is only one of numerous scriptures and cannot be called the authoritative scripture, unlike the bible, which is the authoritative scripture for Christians and which contains numerous passages on how slaves should be treated.

The Christian British came and invented Caste and all Indians have to pay for it. Bloody Christian Colonizers!

Caste as British Creation
http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/h_es/h_es_hobso_caste_frameset.htm

Caste as British Mischief
http://indianrealist.wordpress.com/2009/07/04/1875/
http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Caste_System.htm

Dr. Shukla, it is ingenuous to claim as you did that caste hierarchy was non-existent initially but got rigid later on without much scriptural support. But we know that the Hindu creation myth unambiguously state that the Brahmans came from the Purusha's eyes, Kshatriyas came from the shoulders, Vysyas from the belly and the lowly Sudras from the feet. Hence they are meant to server the upper three castes meekly. In fact the scripture is replete with codification of the hierarchy everywhere. The vile Manusmriti in fact lays down the law as below:

"Let (the first part of) a Brahmana's name (denote something) auspicious, a Kshatriya's be connected with power, and a Vaisya's with wealth, but a Sudra's (express something) contemptible.

(The second part of) a Brahmana's (name) shall be (a word) implying happiness, of a Kshatriya's (a word) implying protection, of a Vaisya's (a term) expressive of thriving, and of a Sudra's (an expression) denoting service."

The scripture is quite specific on the lowliness of scripture. Further on Manu's filth further states that a Brhamana may marry from all 4 castes however, his first wife must be a daughter of Brahmana and on down after that. In case of a Sudra he may not marry anyone else but another Sudra. In fact if a Sudra were to marry a Brahmana girl that is a cardinal sin. The progenies are to be called Chamdala and is not fit to live amongst people, but only in woods.

In Mahabartha, the demi-god Parusrama refuse to teach sudras the art of warfare. When Krana tries to learn the art of warfare from Parusrama and gets discovered Parusrama curses him that the art he has learned would be forgotten at the time of when needs it the most. This demi-god who discovers Karna to be raised by Sutha the sudra, could not figure out that Karna actually was born out of one night stand between Kunti and Sun. I can go on with citation after citation of scriptural blessing to maltreat Sudra in the Hindu scripture. Just like the muslim extremists claim rightly justification for their atrocities in yet another filthy vile book - Koran, the upper caste Hindus rightly claim justification in their scripture and the apologists like you keep coming up with these concoctions.

Indians are pathologically hierarchical, and perhaps Indian Hindus more than others.

Now, with economic growth and the attendant temptations of ostentation, Indians are falling over themselves to live in the right places, drive the right cars, wear the right clothes, study in the right schools, work in the right occupations ... anything in short to demonstrate one's superiority over others.

In this social milieu, consumption and its outward symbols have created a fifth caste in a much riven land, based upon money this time instead of ascribed worth at birth.

I thank you for this piece of self-appraisal and suggest that you go further in future columns and shine a bright light upon the emergence of terrorism by Hindus in India. As you probably know, a few days ago, an alleged Hindu plot upon the life of Indian vice-president Hamid Ansari was discovered.

Siddhartha Banerjee
Oxford, Pennsylvania

ATT: The Judeo-JEW, the Judeo Xrstian, Judeo-Islami, Judeo Hindi & Judeo Buddhists Are Afraid of the "AQUARioUS - AGE; Born'th From The P-i-S-C-E-S - AGE! WHY? (MONEYMONEYMONEY...)

Note: Plagiarizer B R A D -- H I R S H F E I L D & CO., via his "WHY Religious Institutions Fail"

Suddenly 'Blocked' Any Post From "FAiTH-ON-SPACE-SHiP-EARTH" WHY? WHY? Brad, Why ONFAiTH?

Note: Also "REXA ALSLAN'"s, "Harris, Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennett: Evangelical atheists?"

Alao Blocked/Stoped "FAiTH-ON-SPACE-SHiP-EARTH" from Duly Posting 'TRUTH' (Opposite 'MYTH'). WHY?

Note: There are Other's whom hath 'Blocked' "FAiTH-ON-SPACE-SHiP-EARTH"
___

O' O' J-E-A-L-O-U-S-Y! Jealous P-E-L-E-G Eberu's or Wannabe Eberu's! NOt like US 'Yj-O-K-T-A-N' [Made & Prphecied In America; NOt Never JERUSAMEM!
___

Today Is Mr. & Mrs. Hirshfeilds (et Al) "TiSHa BE'Av" Day, {praying To G-D to Forgive Them (JU Ancestors) For Quarreling & then the DESTRUCTION, over such, of Their [Never OUR's]] 1st & 2nd Temples"? O' What FOOLS!

The "P-E-L-E-G" ["WAR BLESSING" Lovers] -- UMMAH Is Inferior To Us 'Eklah-t-iON (not OFF's) aka "Jy-O-K-T-A-N" Nation. That is Precisely What TODAY'S Jewisg Rabbinate et al & None JEW Priesthoods or Immamhoods art Afraid [Of US; APOCALYPiC-ON's; Not OFF's!].

O' JEALOUSY (of The NEW Rewligion Via the NEW Prophecy; from Old Ofcourse! They Seek "ViSION" yet art Still & be Forever Will Be Blind, not only Lame!!

Siddharta?

The true Siddharta was pursuing truth where as you seem to swim in lies perpetuated by Christian media that is bent on using muslims to brutalize Hindus. Read this, wake up!

http://www.haindavakeralam.com/HkPage.aspx?PAGEID=11629&SKIN=B

SECULAR,

"The Christian desire to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Wake up, don't spout venom that is taught in Bible schools. I know your kind are hellbent on Christianizing India.

http://hinduwisdom.info/Caste_System.htm

the hippocratic oath says doctors should not take money

sharia and the bible say eye for an eye...

manu also says there is no fifth caste and all are parts of the divine body.

Those who equate slavery with caste have no clue what slavery in the US was.

The secularist of France declared that one is guilty until proven innocent

The communists of China said possession of any ancient art was worthy of death

so, yes, rigid interpretation of caste is wrong and this happens in India and is wrong. Even if you accept the claim that Manu is scripture, then you have to explain why so many Hindus feel free to disagree with so much of it. Why don't muslims and christians come out and say, yeah parts of the bible and koran are just plain wrong or out of date. It is because there is a difference in the actual scriptures.

Scripture, as the word of god, in the christo-islamic version is of a god that promotes hatred and is hateful directly. I have challenged many an anti-Hindu, find me a passage in which a Hindu God hates. Not found one yet (and I too have looked). Yet there are many scriptures - the Gita, the Ramayana, the vedas that point to the fallacy of caste and other ephemeral social constructs. The scripture tells us to get beyond caste over and over.

Sure enough, there is Manu. I don't know a single Hindu that accepts Manu as current. Science once said that evolution occurred by stretching the giraffe's neck. Do we hold scientific thinking as that of LaMark or that of Darwin that is accepted now?

As to varna, I need proof that this is a false construct. Any evidence that people can not be categorized by genetic and social underpinnings? If there is no proof, then to have one unfounded belief does not disprove another founded belief (genetics and sociology would argue that humans largely behaviorally a result of their birth).

There is a utility to seeing each other as the same, the same utility to see each of us as different parts of the supreme being. But do we care more about utility or about Truth? Obviously we care about both.

hariaum

Rebelwithoutapause

I am sorry for the wrongs done to you. As a Hindu I apologize and say to you that I believe you have the right to enter any temple, worship however you like, and even disagree with me.

India has more poor than most of Africa combined. As you noted, if the British or muslims had wanted to get rid of caste they could have done it. They chose not to. They propagated it in their interest and with the belief in their acting in good faith to their religion.

You are also correct that the sate of Dalits and others in India is worse than the state of blacks in America. But is it worse than the state of blacks in christian of islamic Africa? I doubt it (hint: no major refugee camps and genocides of 100,000 protestants on catholics within a few months).

I don't think your plight is ignored. I know of Hindu groups agitating for the inclusion of all into the Hindu family. I know of Hindu groups working of microloans, on political freedom for everybody, economic development in villages, social change across India and beyond. Their work is not nearly done, but they are at it. Likely, you are at it. India has trebled the life expectancy of Indians in the same time that African and the Middle east have dropped them. India has sustained greater human freedom than teh christian and islamic Africa and the middle east. And India has done that with the unyoking of the Hindu and Secular Indian from the christo-islamic shackles on mind, will, money, and power. The job is not done. But it is being done.

siddharta

"Indians are pathologically hierarchical, and perhaps Indian Hindus more than others. "

that would be about as a racist comment as you can make even if you are among the so called Indian Hindus.

hariaum

More wisdom for "Siddharta" types!

http://satyameva-jayate.org/2010/07/19/myth-of-hindutva-terror/

Futuralogic, stop with innuendo already. If you have seen my other posts you will see that I am equally harsh on all religions. Navin1, you and I have been at it before. It matters little that not many accept Manu as current or whether it is an authoritative text or not. In fact less than 1% of Hindus would have read Manu, same goes for the most religious pious, of all stripes. But the fact of the matter is that the caste meme exists and perpetuates itself in various form with it own mutations. That meme is so prevalent that even some Sudras reflexively hold a brahamin in high regard. The knowledge of these useless stone age texts as some form of wisdom and guidance in this 21st century. Where they spout virtues they are completely wrong. Leave the caste aside these texts heartily endorse polygamy, there is no way you are going to tell me that the hindu scriptures do not. When they try to deal in the real world they are all wrong. Starting with the explanation of eclipses to birth of Makardhwaja off of Hanuman's sweat. These are all nonsensical garbage. I can see already folks jumping up and down saying that I am citing trivial details. They are not. They are some atrocious truth claims that cannot stand light of day. When these texts are so wrong on these, why would you want to organize your lives around the nonsense written in them. When they got every bit of the physical so wrong, why would you want to believe anything these texts say about the metaphysical? This not the exclusive domain of hindu scripture. In fact it is the same plight of every religion of the present and the past. I often see rebuttals that it is worse with the other religions. That is a sure sign of conceding defeat, with defiance that's all it is.

Secular,

You and I agree on some things and disagree on others. That is great.

As to your construct of a meme to explain casteism.

1) Is it a meme if the patent fact by observation is that we are not all the same?
2) Is it a meme if the patent fact by observation that groups of individuals can be sorted into various systems of qualities (gunas) that seem to largely predict their behavior?
3) I do not hold it a meme that there is an idea of discrimination. Discrimination is fundamental to human (and other biological systems) operation in the world. That is not a meme, it is biology.
4) If you are going to argue against a system of beliefs, then that system of beliefs should be what is argued against. If you are saying Hinduism supports unjust discrimination against groups, then, logically, you need to present data (statistical or doctrinal) that supports your contention. If, after you present your data, we still hold to those beliefs then we need to justify why and how so. But to state you realize that most people do not accept Manu as scripture and then to suggest (as you do not, in your last post, state) that Hindus support unjust discrimination is simply an empty argument.

Hariaum

The reason I don't deny what seems to me illogical is that I don't know the totality of reality. I can not for certain say that Hanuman can't fly or that humans and apes can't communicate. Indeed, recent biological data suggests that we genetically co-mingled for perhaps a million years before diverging. And in my uncertainty, in humility before the truth that I worship, I recognize Truth beyond what I know. To live up to this, I can not tell you or anyone else they are deluded without biological definitions of such (bipolar, shiczo...).

Thus, I believe, Hinduism said that it is a dharma of eternal truths. Once we can conclusively prove something is false, then that should be set aside. Until then, we need to accept the belief of truth of others, we must accept and value the multiple gods of others. The person who has lived their whole life in search for a materialist truth, that for a truth of Kali, that for a truth of physics, even that for a truth of allah, is not evidently wrong - there is no positive data indicating the falseness of their beliefs.

Though I may admire Buddhism, as I see it, only Hinduism validates the beliefs of the other. In a world of diverse biological perspectives on reality, that is a powerful ideology that I support whole heartedly.

And, Hinduism says, if you are ready to look beyond names, and look to meaning, then there are a set of teachings that will help you go beyond name and even beyond meaning. Because we manifest our ideas in the physical world, we are bound. But once we Exist beyond manifestation, we can Be Brahman. And here is collapse, and end to materialistic, biological differentiation. Here is where the great scriptures of Hinduism unite and say, there is One Truth called by many names. Tat Sat is within and beyond all categories, male, female, truth, falsehood, caste, class, society, parents, siblings, ... It is the radical oneness of Being in which we are one.

And, the tool to differentiate your process on this scale of personal realization? - the ego with the Buddhi with a teacher who has been there.

If you want to reject all that for a new term, just another meme, because I am Hindu, I have no problem with that. I hope someday, because you are a secularist, you will have no problem with beliefs that are different than yours.

hariaum

As to a system of beliefs

I center my life on Krishna, on that Being that Is, on that Truth that is Being. I do not center my life on stories of Krishna, though the stories of Krishna inform me of how other's saw this great being amongst us. I do not center my life on the story of the Gita. I center my life on Truth that is incredibly well manifest on the Gita.

The common complaint, to which you contribute, against Hinduism is as old as the Buddha. The diversity of gods, the diversity of beliefs, the stories beyond your ken, etc. But where the Buddha said don't worry about the gods, you suggest all teaching (including Yoga, Meditation, love of Truth, Logic, empirical approach to medicine/surgery, studies of economics, love/sex, human nature, etc) should be disregarded. That is an extreme position that I classify in mono-ideological constructs underlying the christians, islamists, and communists when they go about destroying what other have painstakingly built.

Navin1, you have been quite busy at your ke board. Let me try to deal with the issues you suggest I subscribe to and or your objections to my theses. You wrote, "The common complaint, to which you contribute, against Hinduism is as old as the Buddha. The diversity of gods, the diversity of beliefs, the stories beyond your ken, etc. But where the Buddha said don't worry about the gods, you suggest all teaching (including Yoga, Meditation, love of Truth, Logic, empirical approach to medicine/surgery, studies of economics, love/sex, human nature, etc) should be disregarded. That is an extreme position that I classify in mono-ideological constructs underlying the christians, islamists, and communists when they go about destroying what other have painstakingly built". I do not ever say that "Logic, empirical approach to medicine/surgery, studies of economics, love/sex, human nature, etc" should be rejected emprical approach to anything. Where do you get that from? As for the utility of Yoga, meditation I am not sure, but whatever utility these two is the same sans the all religious baggage they come with. Regarding Love of Truth, I am not sure what you mean by it. The word truth is so ephemeral in your vocabulary i am befuddled when you use it.

You wrote, "I center my life on Krishna, on that Being that Is, on that Truth that is Being. I do not center my life on stories of Krishna, though the stories of Krishna inform me of how other's saw this great being amongst us. I do not center my life on the story of the Gita. I center my life on Truth that is incredibly well manifest on the Gita". I am befuddled again, what is the "Being of Krishna"? Other than knowing Krishna through the stories of Krishna, how else are we going to know Krishna or the Truth of his being? The whole notion that there is something intrinsic of Krishna beyond the stories is befuddling to me. Only way you can know of Krishna character is through the stories. If you do not believe or give credence to those stories then there isn't much left his being.

You wrote, "Here is where the great scriptures of Hinduism unite and say, there is One Truth called by many names. Tat Sat is within and beyond all categories, male, female, truth, falsehood, caste, class, society, parents, siblings, ... It is the radical oneness of Being in which we are one". What is the one Truth you keep carping about? these are just inane sentences which mean nothing. What is this radical Oneness of the being? Can you provide physical evidence for that?

The you wrote "And, Hinduism says, if you are ready to look beyond names, and look to meaning, then there are a set of teachings that will help you go beyond name and even beyond meaning. Because we manifest our ideas in the physical world, we are bound. But once we Exist beyond manifestation, we can Be Brahman". First of all what is this Brahman? Can you show its existence, in an empirical or evidentiary manner? Otherwise all the above is silly inanity. If this is not of physical world and or is unknowable, then how do know it?

You also wrote "Thus, I believe, Hinduism said that it is a dharma of eternal truths. Once we can conclusively prove something is false, then that should be set aside. Until then, we need to accept the belief of truth of others, we must accept and value the multiple gods of others". For me even one god is, one god too many. Why should I accept all beliefs until I prove them wrong. In fact it ought to be the other way around. It is you who claim a belief should conclusively show that is true and supported by evidence. You are asking me to be a credulous buffoon.

Secular the buffoon

What level of evidence would you like? And how well have you applied that level of evidence to your own thinking?

What is a meme? Have you ever seen one?
Who are you? Can you point to the part of you that if removed and placed elsewhere would be you? (Is you hand you? is your heart you? is your memory you?) What is light? Can you prove light exists? What is the evidence you would offer that light is a particle v a wave? What is time? Can you prove time exists? Can you point to it?

So in your credulous buffoonery, as to the right moral ethic that modern man has created, what is your evidence?

I asked you for evidence that all men are the same. Can you please provide it for me?

-----

The fact that you don't know or can't see something is not proof that that something exists. The fact that you know things but can't prove them may support your self awareness as a buffoon, but you may still be right. I accept you level of buffoonery. I respect your right to delude yourself into not believing you have a sense of truth.

"The knowledge of these useless stone age texts as some form of wisdom and guidance in this 21st century. Where they spout virtues they are completely wrong." - yourself. Completely wrong is a 100% statement thus including meditation, yoga, evidence based logic, etc. But I respect your right to be a disciple of a set of beliefs, even one in the perfection of your denial of other person's beliefs. Clearly, you do not extend the same respect. Like other mono-ideologist, your demand for the level of proof of the other's ideas is higher than your own demand for the level of proof for your own ideas. (and this is why it is not religion that creates the problem in the world but mono-ideological constructs.)

hariaum

"Why should I accept all beliefs until I prove them wrong. In fact it ought to be the other way around. It is you who claim a belief should conclusively show that is true and supported by evidence."

Who said you have to? Hinduism says we validate the other's belief. You don't have to. You can hate people, you can kill a few hundred million people in the name of modernity like so many atheists before you. You can seek out psychobabble secular humanism like some other atheists before you. You can be a Jain and seek harmony with the universe as it is based on the teaching of Thirtankaras...

I believe in evidence. I have evidence. But the evidence is where subject and object collapse. You want to see knowledge and Being as object. Thus all you see is objects. I have evidence of moral leadership through religious reasoning. You have a belief system that that is not true, but no evidence. You don't have to believe in evidence. You don't have to have an idea of truth (though obviously you do as you try to promote it). You are you and I am I. Surprise. We are different - evidence above.

But I believe, and feel I have sufficient evidence, that we are one. I am not your guru, nor your spiritual guide, nor someone who can help you experience Krishna for yourself (or become aware of the fact that you are already experiencing That). But your lack of the ability to appreciate the obvious colors of the world in front of you, does not deny my ability to enjoy them.

hariaum

Just in case I didn't cause enough confusion, don't get me wrong, I worship also Shiva, Durga, Ganesha, Rama, my books, my parents, my family, my humanity, that which exists, love, friendliness, compassion,... but again, you don't have to.

hariaum

Oh! Mr. Navin1, you theists are so alike, when you run out of points to refute you resort to personal attacks. Actually I had read you to be above all that. Alas, I am wrong again, I guess this wouldn't be the last one either. Please see my comments to Mr. Rcofield's delusions in this blog:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/brad_hirschfield/2010/07/why_religious_institutions_fai.html

Poor thing he is just as deluded as you are he thinks the Abraham's family has some thing to teach us the 21st century folks, in terms of morality, ethics, & justice. Similarly you feel that there is something to be learned from the stone & bronze age texts. I am sure you will find merit in my arguments with him and he will also find merit in my arguments with you. Each of you will demand the same level of evidence for each others truth claims as I am asking of you both.

I hope you do not go around, in your professional life, truth claims of other without laying the burden of proof on them. If that were so why do you expect me to accept your statements of belief (aka truth claims), when you don't in your professional life, or do you?

I am going to humor you despite your personal insults, because I cannot bring myself that low. You wrote, "What is a meme? Have you ever seen one?
Who are you? Can you point to the part of you that if removed and placed elsewhere would be you? (Is you hand you? is your heart you? is your memory you?) What is light? Can you prove light exists? What is the evidence you would offer that light is a particle v a wave? What is time? Can you prove time exists? Can you point to it? ". As I mentioned to you a meme is cultural, social, behavioral construct which replicates itself or replicated from one organism to another. Yes you can see one from the behavior patterns of the organism. For example the 12th man phenomenon at Texas Aggie games is a prime example of it. See the url

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_man_%28football%29

read section 2.1 you will notice how it mutates. Now come on with the body parts, that's nothing but verbal jujitsu what are you trying to prove? For the remaining questions I strongly recommend that you invest s few dollars and buy a set of books by my all time heroes and demigod of mine, Nobel prize for Physics winner And a very accomplished bong player Richard Feynman. I couldn't begin to do justice compared to him.

Navin1 you wrote, "Just in case I didn't cause enough confusion, don't get me wrong, I worship also Shiva, Durga, Ganesha, Rama, my books, my parents, my family, my humanity, that which exists, love, friendliness, compassion,... but again, you don't have to".

Very impressive, NOT. I suppose it doesn't surprise me none, that you are credulous enough to believe that a doll from a person's dirt can come to life. I suppose you must think the cowboy in the Toy Story is real too. (Tsk Tsk I have a great beach property in Kansas to unload, for you I will make a great deal, want it?) Aah! How about the inter-species head transplant, I wonder what kind of anti-rejection Meds your Ganesha takes. I always wondered about Christian Bernard had borrowed that piece of medical technology from your Ganesha. Can you shed some light on that please? But of course we cannot exclude Shiva, after all he is the one who knocked of Gaesha's head and came up with the elephant head transplant. Of course domesticated Lion or is it Lioness? Secular just relax do not start frothing in your mouth about Rama. Is it the great-abandon-er-of-wife-who-is-pregnant-with-twins-after-testing-the-wife's-fidelity Rama you are talking about? Ok, Ok I am relaxed.

By the way I do not worship any of the other things you mentioned either, just cherish them. You can be assured the vile books of fairy tales are not included of course, but I loathe them. Got to read them so I can counter the theists of all stripes. I hope you don't mind, do you?

Secular

rhetoric, empty.

blah blah blah

The ideology of a meme is particularly criticized in its non-scientific reasoning.

If evidence of a meme is in a football team, then evidence of consciousness that transcends materialism is in free will. In my professional life I distinguish for my clients what is known and what is theory. Because I am trained in evaluating evidence, I feel comfortable in doing so. I hope in your personal life you will start good scientific reasoning - null hypothesis would be a good start - there is no such thing as a meme. Then you can try and gather evidence as to why reincarnation has evidence, then you can gather evidence as to why people love something other than a body...

I see no arguments. If you feel you are a buffoon for giving people the benefit of the doubt, you can accept that as an insult.

hariaum

oh yes, secular societies seem to have a higher rate of divorce than say India. Hmm, it seems that secularism has greater evidence of the abandon your wife ethic.

Oh wait, you don't really have an ethic - that's just another mythical meme.

hariaum