Jesus and His App-ostles

Agreed, church is not an app. The writer to Hebrews told us to go to church. When that is physically impossible, however, it's not a bad substitute. My wife is recovering from back surgery, and our church's virtual option has been a blessing when she literally cannot get out of bed on a Sunday morning.

Aren't you just horrified, Mr. Waters, that the word of Jesus Christ is getting out in such a mass-transmission, form? You liked it better when just a few folks got together down in swaller haller, cause you could poke fun at them and their morality and not be too concerned about them having much of an influence on the 'progressive movement'.

"Church is Not an iPhone App"

No of course not -- and here's the difference:

--iPhone apps run on batteries rather than ancient, superstitious gobbledygook;

--they don't go out of their way to make you feel guilty about anything;

--are quickly upgradeable as one's needs change;

--when they die, they can REALLY be resurrected with a simple reset;

--don't care if you're Gay, or if you actually believe woman are equal to men, and don't care whether you're religious or not;

-actually provide real value for money.

Cheers!

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Yes, and going to church is no proof of religious piety or virtuous conduct. Al Capone went to church every Sunday.

This is just another example of religious conservatives resisting progress, be it scientific, moral or technological. If it was up to them, the Bible would still be available only in Latin.

“Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” - Voltaire

Frank57 - loved your comment, it is dead on.

BPAI_99 writes:
"This is just another example of religious conservatives resisting progress, be it scientific, moral or technological. If it was up to them, the Bible would still be available only in Latin."
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You aren't really claiming that David Waters is a religious conservative are you? If you are, I recommend that you read his post history. The *real* irony here is that Mars Hill *is* a religious conservative church.

While I understand Mr. Waters' concerns, I am sure that someone could have said the same thing as soon as sermons were available via that newfangled printing press. The church is the community. The means of spreading the Gospel is a tool used by the church.

I find bpai_99's comments ironic. He used Voltaire as a source. Some of the worst atrocities in human history were committed by athiests. And he might want to study his history a little bit. The ORIGINAL languages of the Bible are Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

As it is, ANY belief system can be abused. Humans are like that.

And the funny thing is that Mars Hill - and Marc Driscoll specifically - is a rather controversial subject among Evangelicals. You either like it, or you don't. There is no middle ground.

Each year the Bible crowd sells out a little more. Each year it takes just a little bit more ignorance to buy into that bunk.

One of the definitions of church is the people of God. Much of the religious experience for many (if not most) people is the coming together and sharing. Mediated sharing through iPhone dilutes that.

I got a kick out of this article. I regularly download homilies from homilies.net because our pastor does not give my kind of sermon. He is great for the young families and gives a kind of Reader's Digest sermon. I need something deeper, and hence the homilies.net site. I used to actually read them on my Palm at church, but felt uncomfortable after a while. So, I listen (kind of) to the pastor's sermons, but usually feel 'hungry' after Mass, and use the homilies on line to fill that void. Why go to church at all you might say? I go of course for the Eucharist, the presence of God, and to be with family there. Also to volunteer and help others, do the readings as a lector, etc. It is MY time during the week when I focus strictly on my faith, and it feels good. I also say extra prayers for those in need and for my loved ones serving in the wars. Not for everyone of course, but it works for me.

Iphone has its own merits.

huguenotklj says that, "Some of the worst atrocities in human history were committed by athiests."

Another amazingly ignorant fallacy promoted by the religious -- I bet he cannot name more than two atheists who committed some of those 'worst atrocities in human history' -- Stalin was apparently an atheist, but contrary to what most conservative, unschooled Christians believe, Hitler was a devout, conservative Lutheran, and said so himself in several speeches. He used religious metaphor and racist fear-mongering to attract the majority of both Protestants and Catholics to the Nazi cause. The religious have proven time and again throughout history they can be easily lead to do anything in the name of fear and God, and there is no question that the greatest amount of misery and death has been meted out by religious organizations throughout history -- including the present day.

Then he says:
:...And he might want to study his history a little bit. The ORIGINAL languages of the Bible are Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek."

Which makes it even more absurd that the MAJORITY of Christians worldwide (which are Catholics by the way) listen to mass in Latin.

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It might be interesting to Frank 57 to know that almost NO Catholics listen to Mass in Latin and haven't for many years. This may be a comment on the accuracy of his judgments.

An interesting new way to milk the faithful. You can pay your weekly bribe to your god using your paypal account.

Stalin and Mao did not kill the millions of people they did kill because they were atheists. They did not do it in the name of atheism, they did it because they were truly evil men who had no compunction against doing so. They did it to consolidate power. Evil men will do evil things.

The vast millions of humans killed by the religious on the other hand - they were specifically killed in the name of one god or another. The faith itself not only justified the murder, it promoted it. Consider the ethnic cleansing the jewish god demanded in the old testament.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
- Steven Weinberg

Nice to see that the "tolerant" liberal bigots are doing their thing and judging people who dare not share their intrninsically correct spiritual beliefs.

The angry hypocrite liberals should take a moment to count up the number of hateful comments towards Christians and then count up the hateful comments from Christians. Doing so will demonstrate who the truly intolerant folks are.

It all just makes it a little easier.

First of all, Church is not an evangelistic outreach program, it is a place where the already converted, born again believers go to worship and praise God, hear His word unpacked and to fellowship with other believers. If you are truly converted and born again, you will want to, love to, look forward to, going to sunday service. It is the highlight of your wk. - getting to lift your voice in worship, listen to exposition of Gods word and then hang out with your favorite people ( other Christians ), and having an app on your iphone wont take its place but it does make it a little easier. You see, just like Nick in the piece, me and most of my Christian friends already download tons of sermons to our ipods to listen to during the wk. It doesnt replace church, its just a nice addition to it. ( and what a blessing to be able to listen to many messages by God annointed preachers like John Piper, Mark Dever, and yes Mark Driscoll ). So, if you are tempted to let these e-sermons take the place of a sunday service, chances are your not really saved to begin with, but - praise God, the Holy Spirit might be pleased to use the messages your listening to with your earphones to bring you to a place of Repentance leading to salvation. Then you'll want to go to service and will really enjoy listening to these e-messages during the wk. as a bonus.

Jesus Christ teach us do not lose any opportunity to talk about the gospel, and the advance of the technology is one of these opportunities. But we need to use it with wisdom. It must be used as one more toll and not as substitute of the church service. The true worship, communion and healing only can be found in the Church.

It is a legitimate concern and one that the church will have to learn to deal with. The iPhone is not going anywhere, and people will continue to become more and more lazy as daily life becomes easier / more simplified.

Religion will be forced to adapt just as other forms of entertainment that have gone digital (I use the term "entertainment" purely for discussion purposes and lack of a better word) such as movies, music, books etc. have had to. Either that, or fall behind and lose touch with the common American.

Hey Bob, I never have anything nice to say about pedophiles either, does that make me a bigot against them?
These people wake up every morning and think what a great day it is to be a pedophile.
That's sick. They are a disease, they cause damage to other people and nobody but they think otherwise.

It's the same with with True Believers. They are sick, they are infected with a disease which apparently cannot be cured. They cause damage to other people and to themselves.

But hey, let's play it your way. You have to respect our right to think of your faith as a disease, otherwise you're an anti-faith bigot.

And lastly, you don't have to a liberal to see things this way. I have no clue how many liberals do, I am not one and I don't really know any. But your bi-polar perspective sees the world only in liberal-v-conservative shades, why do you limit yourself like that?

Frank57 agree with your comments. If religion could ever get out of the business of telling people how to live their lives, what to do in the bedroom, and recently how to vote we could possibly ignore it. Unfortunately it is insidious and is brought to us by people with ulterior motives who firmly believe in their fantasies and would like the rest of us to join them in their world. It is time to confront these folks with the lacunae in their history.

I am in a 12-Step recovery program and we have speaker tapes that I listen to all the time in the car, whether I was at the talk or not. I get so much out of them and I think it is great that people can do the same thing with sermons.

Some of the worst atrocities in human history were committed by athiests.
Posted by: huguenotklj | August 18, 2009 7:33 PM
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Would that be the Spanish Inquisition, The Crusades, The Salem Witch Trials, The current wave of homophobia, etc., etc.???

Frank57

You wrote, "Another amazingly ignorant fallacy promoted by the religious -- I bet he cannot name more than two atheists who committed some of those 'worst atrocities in human history'"

Suffice it to say that man, humanity, can and has used many "justifications" for our inhumanity toward others.

Didn't some things happen in China and Cambodia in the not so distant past?

To say and repeat such a blanket and bigoted statement to the effect that everything about "religion" has been horrible is absolute hogwash.

There has been and there still is much done that is wrong that some use "religion" as a justification for but there has also been much good done in the name of "religion".

You also wrote, "Which makes it even more absurd that the MAJORITY of Christians worldwide (which are Catholics by the way) listen to mass in Latin."

Whether or not Catholics are the "MAJORITY of Christians", I do not know but I would say that the majority of masses around the world are done in the vernacular.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I suppose it doesn't matter if ignorant superstitions are transmitted in person or on an iphone.

katavo

You wrote, ""With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
- Steven Weinberg"

What about evil people doing good things?

This equation seems to be missing from Steven Weinberg's assessments, does he have a ready answer to that?

From what I have heard and read, it seems as if quite a few that do not believe in God, I do not know if Steven Weinberg is among these or not, do not believe that there is such a thing as "evil", are they now saying that there is such a thing as evil?

Do "good" people always do "good"? Do "evil" people always do "evil"? This statement seems rather simplistic and not at all in line with reality, does it?

Seems as if most if not all, at least some of the time, do a combination of "good" and "evil" things doesn't it?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"Hey Bob, I never have anything nice to say about pedophiles either, does that make me a bigot against them?"

Well placing people who dare not share your spiritual views to pedophiles sure demonstrate that you are a bigot.

Are you so wrapped up in your irrational hatred that you really don't see what a bigot you are?

"It's the same with with True Believers. They are sick, they are infected with a disease which apparently cannot be cured. They cause damage to other people and to themselves."

Love to see that good old liberal "tolerance" in action. You are a very ignorant and hateful person.

Some of the worst atrocities in human history were committed by athiests.
Posted by: huguenotklj | August 18, 2009 7:33 PM

Absurdities come in many flavors, not just religious. Christopher Hitchens believes in the so-called "war on terror."

Still, I think I know what the religious vs. atheist atrocity scoreboard looks like.

not a liberal bob, never voted for a democrat. not once.

I already tried to tell you that, but of course you won't listen. You are quite the simpleton aren't you?

Your favorite people to hate are liberals, so anybody you hate must be a liberal.

Tells us again about what fine people christians are, particularly christians like you.

Don't feel special though, I find christians, jews, muslims, and all other forms of gods worshipping to be generally symptomatic of the same mental disorder. I only pick on the christians here because ... well, you're here.

You are diseased bob. doesn't matter who looks upon the disease, it's still sickness.

KATAVO -

A couple of points for your bigoted brain

1) I don't hate liberals at all. In fact I used to be one and most of my friends are. Only mindless fools like yourself hate large groups of people because of some stupid label.

Don't project your ignorant bigotry on me.

2) I have never stated that Christians are intrinsically any better (or worse)than anyone else, so your request that I do so "again" is pointless.

Don't project your ignorant bigotry on me.

3) Your sick rhetoric about how people who don't share your own spiritual views are "sick" and "diseased" is literally the rhetoric used by Hitler and his hateful followers.

You are a dusgusting bigot and your views are the exact same as Fred Phelp's. You just mindlessly hate a different group.

I am confident that you would never say any of your disgusting rhetoric in public. Like most misanthropes, you keep your hatefulness inside until you can hide behind the veil of anonymity of the internet like the coward you are.

"It's the same with with True Believers. They are sick, they are infected with a disease which apparently cannot be cured. They cause damage to other people and to themselves."

Love to see that good old liberal "tolerance" in action. You are a very ignorant and hateful person.

It sounds like you just want to coin a snarky admonishment ("Church is not an app"), and completely missed the function and intention of the iPhone program. Even in your reply to Mr. Bogardus, you persist: "But I do think members of all churches have to be careful not to let any sort of technology (including online communities) substitute for community worship."

What is funny is that you think anybody who wouldn't *want* to show up at church would actually bother to listen to recorded sermons!

Clearly, you do not understand how online connections can and do facilitate and extend communities. You have jumped to a conclusion here that reveals a lack of sophistication and open-mindedness.

potaboc wrote:

"It might be interesting to Frank 57 to know that almost NO Catholics listen to Mass in Latin and haven't for many years. This may be a comment on the accuracy of his judgments."

LOL! I just love these American Christians who think the whole planet is all about THEM!

Full Mass spoken ONLY in Latin is given in Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece, Russia, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Bosnia, Croatia, Belarus, Belgium, Romania, Iceland, France, Mexico, Central America, and South America -- as well as Viet Nam and some countries in Asia and the Middle East. Of course, to the good old folks down at Reverend Goober's Revival Tent, these people don't really count.

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eduardokezerle

You wrote, " The true worship, communion and healing only can be found in the Church."

And just what is "the Church"?

Do you really think that God can only work in someone's life the way that you tell God that He can work?

So many people want to put God in a "box", God will not fit into any of the "boxes" that we try to put God into.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"And just what is "the Church"? "

Answer: the tax exempt mega-money making machine that keeps the televangelists flush in mistresses, expensive cars, and estates. The entertainment oriented modern megachurch culture has eliminated greed as a cardinal sin by instead revering it. That's the "church."

"Do you really think that God can only work in someone's life the way that you tell God that He can work?"

Gosh, I don't know. Let me see what Santa thinks about it and I'll get back to you.

"So many people want to put God in a "box", God will not fit into any of the "boxes" that we try to put God into."

Even a really, really big box?

"Take care, be ready."

For what? Ready to watch a host of decidedly unattractive people being spirited up into the sky all naked as a jaybird?

Oh, yeah, I'm ready all right. I know I won't be going (and pssssst: just between us kids, I know you won't be, either.)

No wonder some don't care about global warming. The ensuing crisis will be considered part of the great Tribulation, from which they, in all their grand self-righteousness, will be spared -- as just reward for loyally fetching the Daddy's pipe and slippers all those years even though they secretly felt foolish doing it.

"Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum."

Likewise, John Paul George Ringo.

My friend, you take yourself and all this stuff far, far too seriously. You need to unwind and relax before you blow a gasket and do something rash.

Have a cool one, kick back, and do something constructive like reformatting your hard drive periodically to keep your system performing optimally.

The point of this op-ed is that an iPhone app is no substitute for the community that going to church brings.

I really fail to understand all the HATERS who are using this article as an excuse to spew their hatred for anyone who doesn't believe in God, does believe in God, uses an iPhone, etc. etc.

Your comments say alot more about your insecurities and weakness then they have anything useful to say in response to the article.
And by extension, my comment on your comments is just as useless.

Make that another kudos for Frank157!!!

Great App. Love it Mars Hill.

dgblues

You wrote, ""Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum."
Likewise, John Paul George Ringo."

Thomas Paul Moses Baum happens to be my name, is DGBLUES your name?

You then wrote, "My friend, you take yourself and all this stuff far, far too seriously. You need to unwind and relax before you blow a gasket and do something rash."

I don't take myself seriously but I do take the "job" that God has chosen me to do seriously.

You then wrote, "Have a cool one, kick back, and do something constructive like reformatting your hard drive periodically to keep your system performing optimally."

First off, I have no idea what "reformatting your hard drive" means even tho I am sure that it has something to do with a computer.

Second, I do not have a computer.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Frank57

You wrote, "LOL! I just love these American Christians who think the whole planet is all about THEM!
Full Mass spoken ONLY in Latin is given in Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece, Russia, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Bosnia, Croatia, Belarus, Belgium, Romania, Iceland, France, Mexico, Central America, and South America -- as well as Viet Nam and some countries in Asia and the Middle East. Of course, to the good old folks down at Reverend Goober's Revival Tent, these people don't really count."

For your information, "Full Mass spoken ONLY in Latin", I would imagine with the exception of the readings and homily are done right here in the United States.

I, personally, prefer the vernacular considering that Jesus spoke in the vernacular.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"What about evil people doing good things?"

Happens all the time and vice versa. If you cannot fathom yourself to believe such a thing then one needs to completely discount the idea that a good person can sin and be forgiven. If evil people cannot do good then good people cannot do evil. If they cannot do evil then they cannot sin or transgress the word of (TGOA) The god of Abraham.

An evil person that holds a door open and gives that person an extra second to get into the ER (and that second saves that persons life), even if they did it to hide their faces from the camera so they could not be identified when they robbed the pharmacy still did a good deed even if it was out of selfishness.

Selfishness, greed, hunger, jealousy, envy, coveting... are not evil things no matter WHAT a church or religion tells you. You can try and believe that all you want but it is a falsehood.

If you are not selfish you will perish sooner than a normal life expectancy due to outside influences. Self preservation falls into the category of selfishness.

Without greed, one would never aspire to do better. One would be content to be a scumbag and lowlife living at the edges and in poverty. Greed feeds the church. They pass that damned plate around at least three times.. without greed (always wanting more) you may as well be a slave to another man.

Absolute evil is an invention of humanity, specifically it did not historically appear wide spread in human history until TGOA propagandizers needed to vilify anyone and anything they did not proclaim to be of TGOA and TGOA's ways. Of course, you actually have to believe that humans are older than 6,000 years old... so that concept is practically lost on almost all of TGOA propagandizers.

"What about evil people doing good things?"

Happens all the time and vice versa. If you cannot fathom yourself to believe such a thing then one needs to completely discount the idea that a good person can sin and be forgiven. If evil people cannot do good then good people cannot do evil. If they cannot do evil then they cannot sin or transgress the word of (TGOA) The god of Abraham.

An evil person that holds a door open and gives that person an extra second to get into the ER (and that second saves that persons life), even if they did it to hide their faces from the camera so they could not be identified when they robbed the pharmacy still did a good deed even if it was out of selfishness.

Selfishness, greed, hunger, jealousy, envy, coveting... are not evil things no matter WHAT a church or religion tells you. You can try and believe that all you want but it is a falsehood.

If you are not selfish you will perish sooner than a normal life expectancy due to outside influences. Self preservation falls into the category of selfishness.

Without greed, one would never aspire to do better. One would be content to be a scumbag and lowlife living at the edges and in poverty. Greed feeds the church. They pass that damned plate around at least three times.. without greed (always wanting more) you may as well be a slave to another man.

Absolute evil is an invention of humanity, specifically it did not historically appear wide spread in human history until TGOA propagandizers needed to vilify anyone and anything they did not proclaim to be of TGOA and TGOA's ways. Of course, you actually have to believe that humans are older than 6,000 years old... so that concept is practically lost on almost all of TGOA propagandizers.

RELLENBECKER,

I tend to agree in most of your post above referring to TGOA.

The ER's door example is an small thing, IMHO.

I see that selfishness falls into the category of self preservation, and not "Self preservation falls into the category of selfishness" as you wrote. This because self preservation is a neutral and wider instinct in humans.

But again, I'm with you...

rellenbecker

You wrote, "Selfishness, greed, hunger, jealousy, envy, coveting... are not evil things no matter WHAT a church or religion tells you."

First off, I have no idea why you threw "hunger" in with the rest.

Why would anyone need a "church or religion" to let them have an opinion about the above mentioned things?

Unless one is extremely immature and/or thinks that the world revolves around them, it seems as if it should be common courtesy and common sense to let one know that these are not exactly what one should aspire to be.

Of course, "common sense" and "common courtesy" are at times not very common at all.

But you have brought up a good point, maybe this kind of thinking is just why the world is the way it is.

You then wrote, "If you are not selfish you will perish sooner than a normal life expectancy due to outside influences. Self preservation falls into the category of selfishness." and "Without greed, one would never aspire to do better."

I guess that you were serious when you wrote the two above things and if so I feel sorry for you.

Something that I have written before: It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.