Jack Bauer's Health-Care Reform

I'm with the United Council of Churches. As someone who was brought up a Catholic, the Catholic Church's opinion on the current health care proposals to be just one more reason why I will never go back to the Church, nor will I ever consider attending any Evangelical church.

Frankly, the whole debate on health care just illustrates how dumb the American public really is, and how selfish and cruel the conservative ideology is. It seems that most Republicans are more interested in preserving the power, influence, and privledges they have than in fixing and improving our current rapidly falling apart system and working for the good of all. It is that selfishness that will doom our democracy.

No amount of health care reform can make up for the millions slaughtered by the forces of relgion over the years. Mythology-based belief systems specialize in death and destruction of those who dont believe in (fill in the name of your favorite cartoon character here). If you havent noticed, Islam is doing this right now, with Jews and Christians at the top of their death list; luckily you can avoid death by just agreeing to the version of mythology favored by those who would otherwise murder you. And if you want to quote the Catholics, quote the views of the Bishops on abortion; dont pick and choose from among their views, lets see them all laid out relative to your favorite Canadian health care plan.

No amount of health care reform can make up for the millions slaughtered by the forces of relgion over the years. Mythology-based belief systems specialize in death and destruction of those who dont believe in (fill in the name of your favorite cartoon character here). If you havent noticed, Islam is doing this right now, with Jews and Christians at the top of their death list; luckily you can avoid death by just agreeing to the version of mythology favored by those who would otherwise murder you. And if you want to quote the Catholics, quote the views of the Bishops on abortion; dont pick and choose from among their views, lets see them all laid out relative to your favorite Canadian health care plan.

The Catholic Church should have their tax-exempt status revoked immediately. I'm sick of this criminal, medieval bully of a church pretending it has anything to do with love and compassion.

Those anti-health care far right bishops of hate can stuff their love for corporations right up their sanctimonious rectums. The insurance lobby ALREADY provides for all that the CC is pretending to hate, so why the farcical whining?

The religious right can expect a civil war if this anti-people and anti-Constitutional stuff continues. Don't tread on me, brainwashed dolts.

The Catholic Church should have their tax-exempt status revoked immediately. I'm sick of this criminal, medieval bully of a church pretending it has anything to do with love and compassion.

Those anti-health care far right bishops of hate can stuff their love for corporations. The insurance lobby ALREADY provides for all that the CC is pretending to hate, so why the farcical whining?

The religious right can expect a civil war if this anti-people and anti-Constitutional stuff continues. Don't tread on me, brainwashed dolts.

Given the degree of difference that exists across the religious spectrum, and given that the same degree of difference also exists across the ideological spectrum, then it seems that neither faith nor ideology can serve as the basis for reaching accord. Neither can culture, for in most countries where universal health care exists, there also exists largely homogeneous cultures (Canada excepted).

Which brings us to economic. I suspect that what is not said when Canada converted is that the cost to cover the 30% uninsured, even in some minimal way, was getting to be quite expensive for Canadians. They also may not have had powerful, organized lobbying groups in 1966 that used portions of insurers' premiums to lobby against universal health care.

Which raises another economic question. Where is it in my health care policy that says an insurance company can use any portion of my premium to advocate a position that I may not agree with? And why is some my health care premium being used for purposes other than health care?

first of all, all those actors have millions to get their own Health care...
I ask, what does Faith have to do with health Care...
Since you question GOD more often than not...
Why can't we question the politicians whom we have lost trust in...
if the goverment wanted they could fix the problem of the uninsured without taking over the health care of the whole United states...
I guess you won't see it until it effects you...

first of all, all those actors have millions to get their own Health care...
I ask, what does Faith have to do with health Care...
Since you question GOD more often than not...
Why can't we question the politicians whom we have lost trust in...
if the goverment wanted they could fix the problem of the uninsured without taking over the health care of the whole United states...
I guess you won't see it until it effects you...

first of all, all those actors have millions to get their own Health care...
I ask, what does Faith have to do with health Care?
Since you question GOD more often than not.
Why can't we question the politicians whom we have lost trust in?
if the goverment wanted they could fix the problem of the uninsured without taking over the health care of the whole United states.
I guess you won't see it until it effects you.

first of all, all those actors have millions to get their own Health care...
I ask, what does Faith have to do with health Care...
Since you question GOD more often than not...
Why can't we question the politicians whom we have lost trust in...
if the goverment wanted they could fix the problem of the uninsured without taking over the health care of the whole United states...
I guess you won't see it until it effects you...

Is anyone really surprised that any of the major Christian churches which have all but hijacked the Conservative party (including the nororiouly uncompassionate and pro-death Catholic church--think high birth rate and support for war (Bush, et al. & no real opposition to the death penalty, and inquisition) would TALK about health care reform, but when it comes to the WALK, the oppose it. The Republican Party has no soul, no compassion, wants perpetual war, is oppressive to all but the rich, white, male (see Catholic Church, and almost all Christian denominations since the 80's). Why on earth would Republicans and their supporters want something that would help average, females, non-white, non-wealthy people? It's not their style. They would rather bring guns to a debate to silence debate. They did it during the Bush years with terror watch lists, PATRIOT ACT, and just downright attacks on the patriotism (remember McCarthy?) anyone who questioned King George and Dick.

Is anyone really surprised that any of the major Christian churches which have all but hijacked the Conservative party (including the nororiouly uncompassionate and pro-death Catholic church--think high birth rate and support for war (Bush, et al. & no real opposition to the death penalty, and inquisition) would TALK about health care reform, but when it comes to the WALK, the oppose it. The Republican Party has no soul, no compassion, wants perpetual war, is oppressive to all but the rich, white, male (see Catholic Church, and almost all Christian denominations since the 80's). Why on earth would Republicans and their supporters want something that would help average, females, non-white, non-wealthy people? It's not their style. They would rather bring guns to a debate to silence debate. They did it during the Bush years with terror watch lists, PATRIOT ACT, and just downright attacks on the patriotism (remember McCarthy?) anyone who questioned King George and Dick.

Is anyone really surprised that any of the major Christian churches which have all but hijacked the Conservative party (including the nororiouly uncompassionate and pro-death Catholic church--think high birth rate and support for war (Bush, et al. & no real opposition to the death penalty, and inquisition) would TALK about health care reform, but when it comes to the WALK, the oppose it. The Republican Party has no soul, no compassion, wants perpetual war, is oppressive to all but the rich, white, male (see Catholic Church, and almost all Christian denominations since the 80's). Why on earth would Republicans and their supporters want something that would help average, females, non-white, non-wealthy people? It's not their style. They would rather bring guns to a debate to silence debate. They did it during the Bush years with terror watch lists, PATRIOT ACT, and just downright attacks on the patriotism (remember McCarthy?) of anyone who questioned King George and Dick.

If Americans wanted Canadian Health Care, then let them move to Canada as refugees!!! Then they can stand in line for an MRI, Cat Scan and those new wonderful cancer treating drugs the Smilin' Teddy was able to get but Canadians can't. Great system, eh?

I am fully in favor of the right of a woman to have an abortion.
However, there is so much contention about abortion and so many taxpapers who consider it abominable that it is politically infeasible to include it in health care.
Since the Hyde amendment was passed over two decades ago, federal funds cannot be spent for abortion. Is it then sensible to try to carry the baggage of reversing that policy up the very steep slope of getting this controversial bill passed?
Non-profits could raise money for those who cannot not afford but want abortions (Is this being done? If not, why not?) Or perhaps private insurance could sell an "pregnancy-contingency" policy.
Including abortion to be covered under a public policy is a deal-breaker that will scuttle any proposed health care solution and has no place in the mix.

ATTN PALM SPRINGS GIRL!!!
Cherry-picking data falsifies evidence.
Adults check their sources.
Grow up and enter the debate as an adult rather than your temper-tantrum persona displayed at every Health Care Info Rally so that we can have dialogue instead of this "who can shout the loudest" contest.
It is self-degrading to impugn the memory of a man who gave so much for his country ("Smilin' Teddy") on the eve of his burial. Orrin Hatch and John McCain would have your head for such ignoble diatribe.

Here, read a real study that shows that various cancers have varying rates of recovey in different counties:

"[In a recent study] published early online and in the August edition of The Lancet Oncology] Michel Coleman, MD, a professor of epidemiology and vital statistics at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and colleagues drew on data from nearly 2 million cancer patients, ages 15 to 99, whose medical information was entered into 101 population-based cancer registries in 31 countries.

The patients had been diagnosed with one of four cancers: breast, colon, rectum, or prostate cancers during the years 1990-1994. They were followed up to 1999, with the researchers comparing five-year survival rates.

The highest survival rates were found in the U.S. for breast and prostate cancer, in Japan for colon and rectal cancers in men, and in France for colon and rectal cancers in women, Coleman's team reports.

In Canada and Australia, survival was also high for most cancers.

The lowest cancer survival rates for all four cancers were found in Algeria.

Cancer Survival: A Closer Look at the U.S.
Survival rates varied among the 16 states and six metropolitan areas included in the study.

Idaho had the best survival rates for rectal cancer in men and Seattle was highest for rectal cancer in women. Patients in Seattle also had the best survival rates for prostate cancer. For all other cancers studied, patients in Hawaii had the highest survival rates.

Patients in New York City had the lowest survival rates for all four cancers except rectal cancer in both men and women. For those, patients in Wyoming had the lowest survival rate.

A racial gap in survival was evident, with white patients more likely than blacks to survive, especially breast cancer. "The comparison is confirmed right across the USA, in all 16 states," Coleman says of the racial gap.

Funding for this study was provided by the CDC, the Department of Health in London, and Cancer Research UK in London.

http://www.webmd.com/cancer/news/20080716/cancer-survival-rates-vary-by-country

"The Church will not accept any legislation that mandates coverage, public or private, for abortion, euthanasia, or embryonic stem-cell research . . . No health care reform is better than the wrong sort of health care reform."

Well just let people keep suffereing and dying then. Wankers

"If Americans wanted Canadian Health Care, then let them move to Canada as refugees!!! Then they can stand in line for an MRI, Cat Scan and those new wonderful cancer treating drugs the Smilin' Teddy was able to get but Canadians can't. Great system, eh?"

Which drugs are these? Please tell me. I would guess that they are already available to all Canadians at reasonable prices.
And let me ask you this, are YOU able to get the drugs Kennedy got? All you are doing is pointing out that if you are rich - like Kennedy - you go to the front of the line thanks to your check book.
As for lines, you are being fed a "line" of drivel from the insurance companies who have you by the short hairs.
In Canada, if you need the care, it's there!
If you weigh 400 pounds, have self-induced type two diabetes and are demanding a power chair and a knee replacement, then yes, get in line. Maybe you'll shape up your health while you're waiting. It's something we Canadians call "personal responsibility" which Americans seem to know nothing about.
What you have in the States is a system that is bankrupting you while actually rewarding people who don't give a crap about their health because they know they just snap their fingers and they'll have that knee replacement.
Then hobble off to IHOP for an all-you-can-stand breakfast.
It is unrealistic and unsustainable.
You are being duped and you don't even know it.
And the whole country is suffering for it.
Wake up.

in the united states of america christians no longer practice christian behavior. the members are hypocritical, arrogant, rude, stupid, ignorant selfish.

Canada has a stake in this.
Some Deliverance Republican senator, I think it was DeMint, admitted
PUBLICLY that he wanted to sanction the reimportation of prescription
drugs from Canada for the express
purpose of breaking the Canadian healthcare system.

I have not heard of any formal
diplomatic protest from Canada,
but can you imagine the U.S. reaction
if any foreign legislator proposed
such a tactic toward the United States?

Thanks for remembering Tommy Douglas. He contributed so much to the quality of Canadian life. It was not just medicare. He was a socialist saint from Scotland by way of the Prairie ministry.

If Americans disparage medical care in Canada, they are simply demonstrating their ignorance. It has been a wonderful success which will continue even if the present US government cannot find a way to legislate a comparable alternative. We are looked after well. The Devil will take the hindmost and that would be you all I suspect.

If this was such a moral issue as churches seem to say it is, then why are churches not leading the way by providing care without asking government to do so? My church does. We give money every month specifically to help those in need. We even help those that are not members when needed. I personally have been helped with this program. We are a world wide church and while our faith requires a lot from us, we go to family first and to church next. In fact, we are to avoid using government if at all possible. Christ told us to give to Caesar that which is Caesar but he told each of us to be our brothers keeper. Have the people in these churches sold everything they own to give to the poor? Of course not, because they expect government to do so.

Wow. Soooo much anger at churches and religion in general. Maybe this is why we have that thing about not allowing churches to interfere with affairs of state... and vice-verse. Perhaps also why we try to keep religion on the fringes of our relationship with God.

I especially appreciated the "mythology based belief systems" chant. Next, we'll hear the line about "the opiate of the masses", from someone much more worldly than the petite bourgeoisie.

Drive on!

I will keep this brief for once. Canada has been one of the many friends who have stood by us as we keep backing ourselves into a corner. For that we all thank you. They have much they can teach us if only we are willing to listen.

Kiefer you have come a long way brother. You must admit it was a rough road there for while, huh? Thank you for enlisting your compatriots to help us out, and thank you for some characters on the screen. I have thoroughly enjoyed your talent, I guess it runs in the genes?

I assume that Keifer's union provides a pretty good health coverage package and his own and his family's wealth covers the rest. No worries. Good for him, he has earned it and I wouldn't ask him for anything other than to pay his taxes fairly and timely. I love Keifer and his father as actors but they have no place and no credibility in Us health care policy discussions. No one should care what the 'stars' think from their sheltered little world. And the Canadian's? please why do they get an dog in this hunt... their folks come here for quality care... oh I get it... this would ease the burden on the Canadian system wouldn't it. Instead of just wealthy Canadians coming to the Mayo, any ol' Canadian could. No that's universal health care -- as paid for by the good legal citizens of the USA. please folks, the arguments are too absurd to consider.

I assume that Mr. Sutherland's union provides a pretty good health coverage package and his own and his family's wealth covers the rest. No worries. Good for him, he has earned it and I wouldn't ask him for anything other than to pay his taxes fairly and timely. I love Keifer and his father as actors... and this article references them for what? They have nothing to do with this. And the Canadian's? please why do they get any dog in this hunt... their good folks come here for quality care... oh I get it... this would ease the burden on the Canadian system wouldn't it. Instead of just wealthy Canadians coming to the Mayo, any ol' Canadian could. Now that's universal health care -- as paid for by the good citizens of the USA. please folks, the arguments here are too absurd to consider. US heath care is a real issue with dollars (US) and cents implications. If the lazy congress and executive branch would actually engage to actually lower regulation and lawyers and therefore costs, and engage to bring the power of Us innovation the bear on the problem we could approach universal coverage for preventative and catastrophic health care.

Yet another non-religious topic trying to divide religious people over politics. This WP feature is just a joke.

Of course the liberal Canadians want the U.S. to adopt the Canadian system.... they are so embarrassed by so many Canadians crossing the border for health care that they need to shut it down.

I totally agree with the NCC!

Amazing how Americans aren't smart enough to take the best aspects of the various European and Canadian health care systems and come up with a superior plan! For-profit comes before the well being of the American people. Just amazing.......

An Independent

Too many broad inaccurate generalizations from incompetent liberals, I mean progressives. The problem with the progressive agenda is that it clearly attacks "God" and the faith based, placing greater importance on government control in social welfare and well being. The attacks directed towards religion and churches is clearly stated numerous times on this page alone!

As for the claims that current health insurance provides for abortions, et al, and the churches shouldn't be complaining... shocker but the Catholic and evangelical churches have never supported abortions.

Read the actual statements from the churches, and it is clear that they will not support nationalized health care when said federal care funds abortions, euthanasia, or embryonic stem cell research.

They certainly would consider a policy or program that excludes federally funded murder of the unborn and elderly.

Are abortions, euthanasia, and embryonic stem cell research so important to Progressives that they would be willing to let the nationalized health care agenda fail at the expense of uninsured poor? Of course! And some progressives want to call the Catholic Church pro-death. Unreal!

The current progressive agenda is not sustainable. And before anyone shouts out Bush, he did not provide sustainable policies. Actually, our last five Presidents have failed us on providing sustainable government and policies.

We have failing, unsustainable social security & Medicaid and ever increasing debt.

Get real, the U.S. cannot afford nationalized health care! We need to look at sustainable options for health care reform.

The unfortunate chain of events that lead to this deadlock are led by those who want to defeat the president's agenda, no matter what it is. The labels of "socialist"or"do you want the government in charge of your health"are all trademark comments from those who have the most to benefit from maintaining the status quo-the insurance industry (see Wendal Potter/Bill Moyer)-and those recieving $$ from their lackeys or the O'Reilly,Coulter,Dobbs dim bulbs.
The Catholic Bishops are once again getting caught up in the Right to Life(i.e-Death Camp)brohaha that has been their stock in trade for the last 30 years. In the meantime those of us in the Church must continue to speak out that the purpose is universal health care is for the benefit of us, our children, and as Jesus said, the least of our brethren-which by the way palmspringsgirl, may be you one day.

What is there to do but repeat the same old, same old. End tax exempt status for institutionalized religions. Make lobbying in Congress by said entities illegal.

Am writing letters ad nauseum to my Senators and Congressperson. If anyone knows of an organization that has taken up the battle for separation of Church and State, that is taking a noisy, activist stance, please let us know.

Well! Finally, the churches are forced to weigh in. Those extreme right wing churches who got into politics have now shut up and have no comment? Common Dobson! Where the heck are ya! Pat Robertson, I haven't heard ya! Remember Christ? Sermon on the mount, etc., etc.? Or were you too busy collecting your dollars from your brainwashed, uneducated souls?

As a Christian, I am really angry at these so called Christians who have no empathy for the downtrodden, the uninsured, the less among us. Those people were who Christ fought for, as well as pious wealthy. The religious right, are faux Christians. They use Christianity to enrich themselves or protect their wealth.

They defame our religion and thus cause it shame.

It makes good sense. After so many lies about the Canadian and other health care systems, they should set the record straight and help the US catch up with all other industrialized nations. A tiny fringe of bullies who are far removed from reality should not be the oudest voices on the urgent issue. Rev. Bookburn - Radio Volta

Some commenters' furious invective, immoderate attitudes, and name-calling make Jack Bauer angry.

You don't want that, trust me.

He expects a calm, reasoned debate. And Lord help you if he doesn't get it...

:-)

jwkopp2004 writes:
"If this was such a moral issue as churches seem to say it is, then why are churches not leading the way by providing care without asking government to do so? My church does. We give money every month specifically to help those in need. We even help those that are not members when needed. I personally have been helped with this program. We are a world wide church and while our faith requires a lot from us, we go to family first and to church next. In fact, we are to avoid using government if at all possible. Christ told us to give to Caesar that which is Caesar but he told each of us to be our brothers keeper."
-------------------------------------------------

The only thing that this passage in the synoptic Gospels tells us is that we should pay our taxes. Nowhere does it say what those taxes are for. In fact, since there are passages in both Old and New Testaments that indicate that our earthly governments are *supposed* to be working under heavenly authority, shouldn't they show Biblical principles?

The OT specifically tells rulers to care for the widow and orphan, the poor, and the alien among us. Are you seriously claiming that since it doesn't specifically list health care insurance, you're off the hook?

Each of us, personally, is expected to care for our fellow man. That doesn't release our governments from a similar responsibility.

Conservative American pseudochristians are either despicably hateful hypocrites or just the most gullible creatures ever unleashed upon the earth. They'll have to chime in to let us know which one it is.

These people claim to have some vague ambivalent affinity toward the teachings of Jesus Christ, but they apparently think he went around Jerusalem spitting on and otherwise ignoring the sick, on his way to playing golf with the temple moneychangers.

So are they infernally stupid in being used by the insurance companies to oppose caring for the ill, or are they just hateful hypocrites? I'd really like for one of them to chime in here and explain their stances.

The National Council of Churches and Catholicism are the devil's church.

It's ironic that the two of the major causes of poverty due to their leftist socialist policies around the world wants America to pay for the illness they had created.

America is spending billions of dollars to fight extremist socialist leftists around the world hatched by these two groups.

Maybe America can afford universal health care if these idiotic hypocritical church leaders were not around in the first place.

Big insurance is too powerful to fight. We've got nothing to look forward to but higher bills and worse care. There's no way we're going to be cared for as a populace as long as there's profit to be made off of our suffering.

Obama's a good guy, but he doesn't have the power to fight these people. Too many political campaigns have been bought, paid for, and won by funding from these massively profitable corporations.

They just ponied up to the GOP because, as the 'birthers' illustrate, they're the most gullible fools on the block. Nicely enough, the self-segregate into dumb and dumber, so are easy meat for the sharks.

Why can't the idiots understand that universal health care is an issue of affordability. If you guys can afford to pay higher taxes yearly, then go for it.

Even now, the government has a hard time paying for the health care of our senior citizens. What more for everybody?

Do you guys use your brains?

The reason why these idiotic churches can't pay for the healthcare of their flock is , yes, affordability. The idiots simply can't afford it so they pass it to the government who obviously can't afford it too.

If Canada can afford it, ask them why. Is Canada tasked to protect the world? How much do they spend to protect it?

The basis for wiping away the health-care reform effort is that big money interests are too used to getting that money reliably year in, year out. They don't want it reduced or done away with. Meanwhile, toward that end, the religiously intoxicated are being told that Liberals want the government to fund abortions and to pull the plug on grandma. The racists are being told that the government is gonna fund health-care for indigent Negroes and other, unfavored minorities. The conspiracy theorists are being told that the president is trying to establish a Fascist or a Marxist or a Fascist/Marxist regime here in America, contrary to what the Confederacy fought against during the Recent Unpleasantness. The government-haters are being told that a government-run health-care system will be like a day at the Department of Motor Vehicles, even though government-haters love "their" Medicare. Boil it down and you will find that it is all about money pure and simple. People's prejudices are being used as an effective tool to kill change. Big government health-care works effectively in several western Democracies. It would work here, too.

no matter how you write what you need to say; no matter how you cut it, slice it, dice it, no matter how the health care is written, it will never be passed simply because it is Obama and he is black! The news, messages are not about health care period. This is a matter of race - pure and simple. There is no explanation to date about healthcare in its truest form, would not know about it anyway - it will never be passed by liberals or conservatives. People will probably forgive what happens here but never forget so just remember when or if the conservatives comeback the same will hold true for them simply just because! No rhyme or reasoning to this nor to health care.

We already LOVE KIEFER, now we ADMIRE HIM as well!

CANUCKS, PAY YOUR BILL

As an AMERICAN authentically concerned the plutocrats are BANKRUPTING the USA (I'm bi-partisan) -- I will NOT BE FORCED into another INSANE SPENDING plan.

Especially by outsiders who --

(1) REFUSE TO PAY their FAIR SHARE of medical research costs that the USA HAS PAID and

(2) their share of the USA nuclear umbrella.

Canadians, you have cost USA taxpayers at least $5,000,000,000.00 for the above.

When you pay those bills -- we'll talk. NOT ONE SECOND SOONER.

Oh. And that is what my God said. She also said your God is wrong.

And even if MESSIAH were as white as Karl Rove -- he would be INCOMPETENT!!!

Have a nice day.

As usual, the socially conservative churches are expecting the government to do their jobs for them. For many of us who call ourselves Christians, abortion is wrong and will never be an appropriate answer to an unwanted pregnancy. But we don't live under a theocracy and many American citizens do not share our beliefs. Abortion has been made legal by the Supreme Court. If the churches don't want abortions to occur they need to do a better job of reaching out with their message instead of expecting the government to enforce their beliefs.

JohnHouse writes:
"As usual, the socially conservative churches are expecting the government to do their jobs for them."
--------------------------------------------------

Both the individual and government have a biblical mandate to take care of the "least and the lost". Even if we lay biblical teachings aside, the founders wrote in the Constitution the reminder that one of the prime duties of the Federal Government is to promote the "general welfare" of its citizens - that means, cover social costs whenever possible. Many things are possible in the 21st century that weren't in the 18th, and one of those is ensuring access to medical care in a comprehensive fashion. It's so sad that everyone trumpeting the wonders of the US are willing to let us be the only modern civilization *not* to have some kind of governmental health insurance program (and EMTALA hardly counts as insurance)

russpoter: Your post was one of the silliest things I've ever seen. Ah, the wisdom of the American consumer....of garbage propaganda!

Are you anti-government run health care people stupid? The health insurance industry cares for only one thing and it sure isn't your health! All they care about is making billions in profits on the back of the sick and dying of this country! Every accusation I have seen made attacking government run health care is already being done by the American health care industry! 1. They not only will not insure pre-existing conditions, in most cases they refuse to cover new serious and in many cases life-threatening conditions!
2. death panels: the health care industry already has them! They decide if you get coverage for serious costly life threatening conditions, and in many cases deny coverage! They are hoping that the longer they put off your coverage for these serious conditions, the better the possibility you will die before they have to provide coverage and--wha-la, a bigger profit! 3. And if you do come down with a costly serious condition, the health care industry will try to find every possible way to drop you! Like if you didn't put on your application that you had to see a doctor when you were 16 to stitch up a small cut for instance, they will use this to hold you in violation of your application and drop you without even reimbursing you for your premiums! You don't get your choice of primary care doctors unless your doctor is a member of your particular health care system! You don't get to see just any doctor or specialist you want! You are forced to see your health care provider's doctors who all get paid more for what they don't provide then what they do provide! Because cutting expenses and making big profits is the bottom line! Like I said, the health insurance industry could care a rat's @%# about anyone's health! Just the opposite is true, and for just one reason--profits, profits and profits! Billions of dollars worth! These companies have found a huge gold mine - taking big advantage of the sick and dying! Instead of doing the best for their patients health, they do as little as possible in caring for their clients! We need a government run health care system similar to Medicare Part A or the VA Hospital system which are not driven by profits and the almighty dollar! We need a system that is patient care driven, not profit-driven! We need a hundred caring senators like Teddy Kennedy! Thanks Kiefer, you are rich, have your own health care and don't have to get involved, but great credit for you caring about other less fortunate among us! A truly Jesus trait!

SAME TO YOU

russpoter: Your post was one of the silliest things I've ever seen. Ah, the wisdom of the American consumer....of garbage propaganda!

---

No, you're sillier, idiotically going into BANKRUPTCY.

Congratulations on being the silliest commenter today. Way to go.

We should listen to Jack Bower. he's saved us from nuclear attacks on more than one occasion

Of course we need to listen to Kiefer. I mean, he attended 5 different high schools before he could graduate and ONE WHOLE semester of college. I am sure he has the background to write health care reform.

Tommy Douglas had to endure the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune before realizing the dream of universal health care. The question is how best to ultilize limited resources and extend dignity to those in need. He proved that one could have fiscally responsible and compassionate government. Is health care the right forum to re-fight Roe vs. Wade?

Who's Kiefer Sutherland?

If you were born in america, you should be able to go to the doctor and get taken care of, period. Why should we care if that lazy/poor/unfortunate person didn't pay for it. There would be less disease and less discord between rich and poor if we just took care of everybody's health no questions asked.

That idea is simple. Now we just get to sit back and watch the petty bickering among the overzealous, masquerading as public servants.

Six degrees of Keifer Sutherland? (oops, wrong guy)

Don't you bed-wetting, gay, commie Marxist liberal non-believers know that the inability of the poor and already sick to pay $6,000 per year health insurance premiums and $5,000 deductibles is the God of Abraham's wrathful punishment for their sloth and, uh, er, uh...
pre-existing conditions (like being pregnant with twins)?

Palin's witchdoctor, the Bible and Dwight Collins say it's so and they are always right, by God!

Boy Mgochs, At least Kiefer attended HS and had some college! More then I can say for your limited brain power which probably was lucky it could handle one semester of pre-school! If you don't like government run health care, then get your parents and grandparents off of this terrible program! If you don't like government run health care, then get all your military veteran friends and relatives to stop using the VA health care system, which i might add has the highest patient approval rating of any health care system in this country, even with its many flaws! If it wasn't for the Democrats, we wouldn't have a VA Health Care system, Medicare, Medicaid, Chips kids program, etc. We would all be in the deathly hands of the multi-billion dollar healh care industry which cares not one iota for your health and well-being, but only the health and well-being of their-for-profit-only billion dollar industry which profits from the sick and dying! Everything you would find falsely WRONG with a government run health care system already exists in the private health care industry! After all, if you took economics 101, the bottom line is less expenses means higher profits! Charge the highest premiums possible and provide the minimum care possible, or just no care if possible is the best in their eyes! Doctors in the health care industry get big bonuses for providing the least care possible! Is THIS the system you want to keep? Oh, I get it!! You own tons of health care industry stock! RIGHT! Go figure!

No one should care what the 'stars' think from their sheltered little world.

I value the opinion of Keiffer Sutherland more than the opinion of Michelle Bachmann, Sarah Palin or Virginia Foxx.

And as for Karl Rove,Fox Noise and Boss Limbaugh?

Thanks but no thanks!

Whether one is religious or not, society has a fundamental duty to care for those who, for whatever reason are unable to care foir themselves. Also it is in everyone's interest to have a healthy society. If this means that the healty among us have to pay more into a viable health system, so beit.

"Medical needs are too fundamental to be responded to solely on the basis of market forces and for reasons of profit," Rev. Dr. Karen Hamilton... _________________
Our tradition has held that market forces and profit trump society's need for good health, but that trend runs counter to our higher calling. If we continue our failure to " promote the general welfare" by grinding into poverty health care debtors, we may lose our remaining "domestic tranquility". "The blessings of liberty" are a remote notion to millions of Americans who have been or will be crushed under health care debt.

Oh and by the way for you people in love with the private multi-billion health care industry: be prepared to pay even high premiums to help cover their billion dollar lobbying effort to corrupt the political process even more then it has been! If you would rather pay between $12,000 to $15,000 per year for poor health coverage verses $3,000 or so in taxes for universal health care that really cares about the patient and be thousands of dollars ahead in insurance premium savings, then more power to ya! If you would rather pay $12,000 to the rich beyond means health insurance industry then just a few thousand in taxes to your government for health care, then I guess money and minimal health care is no object to you!

The Health Care system needs much more than just financial considerations and availability.

What about consideration of higher taxes on low quality junk foods, and lower taxes on fresh high quality organic health foods for both health and budget improvements?

Much more also needs to be done to see that the professionals providing the care are actually qualified professionals and they are using their skills to HEAL, not just line their own pockets at the expense of hurting others.

There also is a great need for better availability of the information on HOW to locate the quality care physicians and to know how to tell the difference between a doctor that wants to HEAL and one that is just going through the motions. The need is for everyone that is not “wealthy” to have this necessary information.

There was a suggestion made that should be available on the net to EVERYONE for a Database of ALL Doctors, making particular note of who are guilty of malpractice and/or loss of medical license. Additionally, strong notes should be added on other significant complaints inclusive of patients conditions being exacerbated, or new problems emerging, as a result of their treatment, or if it's from a lack of treatment.

In addition to my own bad experiences attempting to gain quality care, as well as others whom I know plus thousands of others seen on the internet, I’ve recently been emailed a link to a new blog with a story far worse than my own, and he/she has apparently only begun to tell their tale. There was a bit in his/her tale that reminded me of several known situations, so perhaps it might spark some recognition and contribute to any venue of improvement. From what I read in the email sent to me, it sounds like they have quite a lot more to say: http://enoughdangit.blogspot.com .

We need real change that helps people.

THIS the system you want to keep? Oh, I get it!! You own tons of health care industry stock! RIGHT! Go figure!

Posted by: yankeechess
========================
Hey MORON, do you have a pension plan, 401k, own a mutual fund, belong to a union, you own health care industry stock. CALPERS is probably one of their biggest investors.

And the only reason my parents have MEDICARE is they are required to by law. And all the working military retirees that I know, by the supplemental insurance so the do not have to use anything related to the VA.

Try going to school genius and not listening to rich Hollywood guys who like Obama will be exempt from participating.

There are so many real health care issues that do need to be addressed but they don't all need to be done at once, by a bill written in secret, by Nancy and her clowns. How about portability, liking some sort of health care to unemployment and eliminating way over priced COBRA. But that does not get to their political goals unrelated to health care.

As most honest and thinking Americans, most Catholic bishops and most Evangelicals have come to realize that Obamacare (as “public option,” “co-op,” or whatever names they use to manipulate us) has NOTHING to do with improving our health care system.

Obamacare is just another power grab that would further destroy our health care, destroy our economy, steal money from our children and grandchildren, multiply our deficit, and enslave us through lies, manipulation, intimidation and coercion.

Imitating Hugo Chavez, Obama wants to nationalize everything, including our health care system! "Hey, Obama has just nationalized nothing more and nothing less than General Motors. Comrade Obama!" Chavez cheered on Venezuelan TV. He added that he and Cuba's Fidel Castro would now have to work harder just to keep up.
http://www.hacer.org/report/2009/06/us-obamas-red-chorus-investors-business.html

Nanook here, from Canada. How the heck did you guys make healthcare about religion? Amazing! Where is God when an otherwise upstanding citizen becomes homeless because of healthcare costs? Where is God when people die because they don't have medical insurance? Where is God when families are destroyed and everything you ever worked for is gone in an instant? And if you must bring God into it, why not just trash the whole health care system altogether and simply pray to God to make you better? Universal healthcare is about caring for one another, pooling our resources so that no one is destroyed because they need an operation. Universal healthcare is about being human and understanding that we're all in this together. Stop making everything about God. It's really stupid. Now I must head off to the great frozen hospital to the North and get my doctor to examine my nose - for free!

Oh Canada..and an actor too....

Canada where Fargo, ND has more medical facilities than most Canadian provinces....

Canada, where the Canadian word for "car" is "Ford" and the Canadian word for "department store" is "Walmart"

Canada, where a woman has a 10 month wait for maternity services....

The left wants a free lunch and Obama wants to destroy America to please the DailyKos and Huffington Post....they should all go to Canaduh...

a. Wendell Potter, former VP for Cigna, was on PBS four weeks ago and revealed that in 1996 the Health Insurance's portion of dollars spent on health care was 5%, today its 20%.

b. Yesterday I heard on Stephanopolous' show that health care costs 2.4 trillion dollars a year. We could save $360 billion a year just by driving down the Healthcare Insurance Industry's take back to 1996 levels.

c. We spend the most of any nation and yet WHO (the World Health Organization) ranks us 37 out of 191 nations with health care
systems.

d. The straw dog the GOP attacks is Canada, the prime example of 'socialized medicine' - never mind the fact that Canadian doctors make almost as much as ours.

e. Canada is rated # 33 (by WHO) out of 191.

f. Watch that neither France nor Italy will come up in the conversation - France is rated # 1 and Italy # 2.

g. When you talk about the health care system you have to make a distinction between the group and the individual. For those with health care coverage the US has the best system in the world according to Time Magazine. However, if that is true it's not due to the Insurance companies but the investments in R & D made by the US government from 1945 to 1965 when no other nation was making any.

h. But as far as group totals France's are almost three times as good as ours. And we are all both individuals and parts of groups. God help you if you lose your coverage under the current system and get sick. You either go bankrupt or die.

i. A study by the Toronto newspaper showed that if the US adopted the Canadian system we could cover everyone and save 1
trillion dollars. But if we adopted France or Italy's system we would still save money and have a much better system - maybe the best due to our superior technology.

j. France's and Italy's systems are mixed - single payer and healthcare insurance - sounds strange but it works.

my my mcgoch, you are all so well informed huh? First of all, I am on Medicare Part "A" which was not forced on me! I chose that option, which I did pay for through my taxes. I didn't accept part B because it was too costly $300 per month out of my SS check of $900. I don't own stocks or bonds and have no 401K or other-wise, just the hard earned money i have in the bank! As for the VA, I am a Vet! You were probably to chicken to join as I can tell because you know nothing of the VA Health care system, which cover's me 100% accepting co-pay for prescription drugs. I know thousands veterans as a member of several veterans organizations and most use the VA Health care system and are extremely satisfied with the care they receive! And few can hardly afford supplemental health insurance! I served two years in Vietnam in the early 60s, came back injured and have definitely had first hand knowledge of the VA system which I wouldn't trade for anything on the open profit-driven market! You are the stupid ignorant one because you never served and have no idea what it is to be a vet and sacrifice for your country! Most injured vets I know including myself would have never survived in a profit driven private health care system. This fall, I will be having a complete knee replacement at my VA Hospital! My doctor told me it was needed based on my pain and the poor condition of my knee. I didn't have to beg for it and hope it would be covered. They made the decision based one my health and well-being, not based on costs like a private insurer. I know absolutely no one who is forced onto Medicare. Your covered automatically by Part "A", but you certainly don't have to use it nor pay premiums for it. And You can opt not to be in Part B which is strictly voluntary. So, please, before you start sprouting out unfounded lies and misinformation, do some homework, which I can surely see you are incapable of--as your one semester of preschool obviously didn't prepare you for the real world! Try Google sometime--you just might learn something that your limited brain might be able to handle!

No one wants a free lunch (Where do people come up with this crap?). They just don't want the feeling that makes you ponder suicide when the doctor says there is no way you can afford the operation that may save your life...or your retirement savings.

For the far right overzealous christian:

"Let he who has two give to him who has none"

Let's not say we are christians and cherry pick through the bible for the passages that conveniently let us pursue our own selfish goals.

Posted by: yankeechess
"I don't own stocks or bonds and have no 401K or other-wise, just the hard earned money i have in the bank!"

--------------
And you have the nerve to question others' intelligence. Enjoy being poor.

We could learn much from Canada as well as Great Britain, France and many other countries that care for their citizens and are not as evil and greedy as we are. More power to them and less to us as we do not deserve power anymore.

mcgochs, common, learn to read! I said I have money in the bank! not in the stock market which has made a few fools poor or poorer in recent times! How's your 401K doing fool? He he! OH, i should be truthful here! Never trusted regular banks! my money is in my very sound credit union! The interest might not be high, but my money is safe and sound and i didn't suffer any losses due to the economy! And I can see by your reply that you are a wee bit jealous because I didn't lose money in your favorite 401K and also, that you didn't serve and know nothing about the VA health care system! Cluck-Cluck-cluck! and obviously know nothing about Medicare!

When they talk about the real reasons healthcare is expensive I will listen. Things like tort reform (but no they would lose the Trial Lawyers Association political contributions); government investment in high-risk pharmacutical and medical technology research and development; more tuition support for students wanting to be doctors with the agreement that they will practice as GPs in areas where doctors are scarce; and, force the AMA to really regulate bad doctors and not just "hide" them.

Considering that the Catholic church has enough problems with pedophile priests and the lack of men and women who are willing to enter the priesthood and the religious societies, I think they should shut their mouths.

The President has repeated time after time that health care reform will not allow abortions, so this is simply ludicrous to be against reform.

I guess these people haven't seen the misery that is visited among families that have to deal with catastrophic illness. That there are families pushed into bankruptcies because of the high cost of their loved one's illness. As long as it hasn't happened to them, they don't care.

Instead of being against health care reform, the Church should demand better health care for pregnant women, infants and children. They should push their congregations to demand paid maternity and family leaves so that parents can take care of their children and they should also push for better care of children who are in orphanages and in foster care. Isn't there something in the new testament about taking care of the least of the brethren?

russpotter: Go to www.newsweek.com/id/183670 for lessons on how to avoid bankruptcy as a nation, as reported by a CNN commentaor.

First and foremost, understand that according to the Canadian Health Service news releases over the last 3 weeks, the Canadian program is in a very bad way.
Second, it is very nice that the Canadian churches wish to voice their opinions. According to IRS Regulations, though, any church or synagogue that advocates a political policy from their 'pulpit' can lose their 'tax exempt' status (normally enforced against 'conservative Christians').
Third, having worked along side the 'entertainment' industry, having known personally many so-called 'stars,' I can state that their recommendations for anything aren't worth the paper that their words are printed on. These are people that have spent years learning their trades (acting), and have had little time for any kind of formal education in any other field.
Fourth, I ask a question: your car has a dented fender; do you trust the mechanic that takes out a blowtorch and chain saw to fix it? Do you trust the dentist that takes out a 1/2" drill?
Finally, If one wants to clean up health care, why not reform the tort system? Why not eliminate the monopolistic government regulations that permit insurance companies to cover only certain geographic areas (your car insurance, for example...you live in New York, but your policy can come from California...) Why not a free market in the health insurance field? Competition brings prices down. Muzzling attorneys brings prices down.

Not sure how this thread became about the CC's view on abortion within healthcare reform. Since the CC is actually providing a lot of charity care already, they have some standing in the debate which is not motivated solely by concern for insurance company profits.

It's a pluralist society. People will disagree. If there's no space for that, then what that really says is that the goal of some is a totalitarian progressive regime. No thanks. There can be serious reform which doesn't impose a violation of conscience on some people.

The current plan is just a mishmash intended to prop up private industry and extend coverage a bit. It's a small step in the right direction, but the US needs a reform which is more than a federally-mandated wealth transfer plan to private businesses. Maybe in 2013.

Republicans are nothing more than racist, sexist, hate-mongering liars. They've done nothing to protect or advance America, and instead, have given us so many failed economic and social policies as to bring us closer to being a Third World country. I'm not a Democrat, but there's no way I'll be voting for any Rethuglican.

A point of view from Canada:
I'm not one of those people who sees Tommy Douglas as the greatest Canadian, but there is one fact that seems to be missing from the whole debate in the US.
Canadians gripe about some aspects of the system but are far more satisfied with it than Americans are with theirs. Don't take my word for it. Check out Fox News http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136990,00.html

I also hear a lot in the US about Canadians not being able to choose their family doctor. I have no idea where this myth got started.

This is from the Toronto Globe and Mail, this July.

Canadians happy with primary health care, Marina Jiménez

Thursday, Jul. 23, 2009

The largest survey on primary health care ever conducted in Canada found that most people have high praise for their family doctor, and a staggering 92 per cent would recommend their physician to a relative or friend.

Canadians – except those living in Nunavut – have excellent access to primary health care: 85 per cent of people aged 12 and older have a regular doctor, and two thirds have been seeing the same doctor for five years or more, according to the Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI) study, released yesterday.

“I feel darn good that 92 per cent of Canadians would recommend their family doctor to a friend. That is the litmus test,” said Sharon Johnston, a family physician and University of Ottawa professor.

Under-five mortality rate 2007
(deaths/1,000 live births)
United States: 7.8
Canada: 5.9

Infant mortality rate 2007
(deaths/1,000 live births)
United States: 6.3
Canada: 4.8

Maternal mortality rate 2003 (death in childbirth)
United States: 1 in 2,500
Canada: 1 in 8,700

Life expectancy at birth (2007):
United States Men: 75.65
Women: 80.69
World ranking: No.35 Canada: Men: 78.69
Women: 83.91
World ranking: No.6

Health expenditure per citizen per year 2004 ($US)
United States: 6,096, No. 1 in world
Canada: 3,173, No. 17 in world

Looking at these numbers, you realize there really is no debate about which system is better, fairer and more efficient.

There is only smoke being blown by those who benefit personally from the current unfairness and inefficiencies.

I really could not care less about what any religious institution thinks about healthcare in the U.S.
All I can say, as a U.S. citizen now living in Europe, is: "I'm sure glad that over here I will never have to worry about mortgaging my home in order to get good healthcare for my entire family and really wish that all of my fellow-citizens in the U.S. had the same opportunity."

"No health care reform is better than the wrong sort of health care reform."

With this single statement, Bishop Nickless sums up the biggest problem in health care reform. The ones who need it aren't the ones making policy; the ones making the policy will never need outside health care insurance.

To simplify: The wealthy and comfortable (say, for instance, Catholic bishops, members of Congress, radio talk show hosts with bloated egos) will, as they've always done, sit back and maintain that everything is fine, thanks. And for them, it is.

Withholding support for the reform that could dramatically alter -- even save -- the lives of tens of millions of Americans over a technicality is something that only the wealthy and comfortable can afford to do.

To the families digging through the sofa cushions looking for loose change, abortion simply isn't as important as finding next month's rent and the funds to take the kids for their vaccinations.

DwightCollins wrote: "if the goverment wanted they could fix the problem of the uninsured without taking over the health care of the whole United states...I guess you won't see it until it effects you..."

How is Medicare "taking over the health care of the whole United States"? How bad would it be if Blue Cross managed your Medicare instead of charging you different rates for your health insurance based on where you work? Why do you envision something like a Medicare-for-all not doing what Medicare currently does?

Its seems plain to me that there is a lot of crafty imagination at play, and any thing imagined that sounds bad becomes a fact, like a "death panel", to attack any change in how health insurance is applied, (not how health care is applied). This is how children argue.

No one is saying why Medicare is bad. In fact we hear from conservatives they want Medicare to be safe and continue while at the same time demonizing any government medical plan! Slap me in the face and call me silly but I swear this makes so little sense. How can anyone with a brain buy into the conservative arguments that contradict, include purposeful falsehoods, and whose arguments seem to be from a debate team where the only goal is to defeat the other team, not to be accurate?

"The Church will not accept any legislation that mandates coverage, public or private, for abortion, euthanasia, or embryonic stem-cell research . . . No health care reform is better than the wrong sort of health care reform."

EXACTLY WHY WE NEED TO ST5EAMROLLER THEM.

THESE PEOPLE DO NOT WANT YOU TO HAVE HEALTHCARE - THEY WANT TO PEEK IN YOUR WINDOWS AND CONTROL YOUR PRIVATE LIFE.

GIVE US THE PUBLIC OPTION NOW!!!

+
One additional comment:

Perhaps if the Politicians spent more time seriously trying to solve the problems instead of just advertising them, real progress might begin.

Reread this one. It ends the discussion.
______________________________________
tomscanlon1 | September 1, 2009 12:46 PM

jubalharshaw wrote: "First and foremost, understand that according to the Canadian Health Service news releases over the last 3 weeks, the Canadian program is in a very bad way."

Meaning what? People are not being treated? Doctors are out of work? Hospitals are closing down? Your paragraph means nothing without at least a few details behind it.

jubalharshaw wrote: "Second, it is very nice that the Canadian churches wish to voice their opinions. According to IRS Regulations, though, any church or synagogue that advocates a political policy from their 'pulpit' can lose their 'tax exempt' status (normally enforced against 'conservative Christians')."

Can you quote that regulation? Churches are very much allowed to voice their opinion about "issues", even issues of public policy, or did you not know that abortion and how it is provided and paid for is an issue many churches advocate against. Do you believe IRS regulations go against those churches too?

jubalharshaw wrote: "Third, having worked along side the 'entertainment' industry, having known personally many so-called 'stars,' I can state that their recommendations for anything aren't worth the paper that their words are printed on."

Are Rush Limbaugh and Charlton Heston included in that list of entertainers?

jubalharshaw wrote: "These are people that have spent years learning their trades (acting), and have had little time for any kind of formal education in any other field.

I basically agree but I'm sure people I call entertainers you will call issue experts.

jubalharshaw wrote: "Fourth, I ask a question: your car has a dented fender; do you trust the mechanic that takes out a blowtorch and chain saw to fix it? Do you trust the dentist that takes out a 1/2" drill?"

What is the question again? Why not just ask whether you trust the banker who gives you monopoly money when you make a withdrawl. Your "question" makes little sense.

jubalharshaw wrote: "Finally, if one wants to clean up health care, why not reform the tort system? Why not eliminate the monopolistic government regulations that permit insurance companies to cover only certain geographic areas (your car insurance, for example...you live in New York, but your policy can come from California...) Why not a free market in the health insurance field? Competition brings prices down. Muzzling attorneys brings prices down."

Well why not muzzle attorneys for those on Wall Street too? Or muzzle the big oil attorneys who explain away huge profits while explaining the need for tax breaks?

The reason tort reform is brought up only in the health care system is because insurers are the ones who pay. Why don't we hear about tort reform in any other field? Get a clue and stop listening to those who have a conflict of interest in what they tell you. Courts impose damages, not attorneys. Maybe you should propose muzzling judges too?

We have given the capitalist system several hundred of years in which to come up with a suitable heath care insurance system that is all inclusive and reasonably priced and it has failed miserably.

Yet, we are told that repeatedly that these are the only choices we should have are those which have failed in the past.

The only 'death panels' in the REAL WORLD are those in the insurance companies who get paid handsomely to stand between you and your Doctor in order to deny payment for treatments that you need. And of course the Invisible Death Panel of preexisting conditions or no health insurance at all leading to the death of thousands each year.

The only systems that seem to work are the VA and Medicare. I'll take either of those choices or the Public Option, thank you very much.

I wonder where Canadians will get their cheap, effective drugs once American citizens have "free" health care and are no longer subsidizing the research required to find them?

DwightCollins wrote: "what does Faith have to do with health Care" If you're follower of a religion that encourages charity (Christianity, Islam, Judiasm, etc.) then health care policy has a lot to do with faith when there are those that have none. In the until about relatively recently Christian Churches in Europe ran health care centers for those in need, many hospitals today are still run by churches although most are no longer charity based. It's not a surprise that many medical charities today are funded and run by religious organizations.

websterr1 - I know more Americans who get their perscription drugs from Canada than Canadians who get "cheap" drugs (the Canadian dollar is worth less here) from the States. Plus more drugs are available over the counter in Canada than in the States.

Nanook here, from Canada. I really do wonder where everyone here is getting all their information on Canadian healthcare because frankly, most of it has been made up in their heads. Canadians really don't care whether you like our healthcare system or not. It doesn't matter to us - at all! Design your own healthcare program. We still don't care. Throwing out lies about the Canadian healthcare system won't do anything to help you develop your own, so stop it already. And who thinks we sit here north of you just waiting for you to develop life saving drugs? Are you guys really that freaky? Honestly, grow a pair and develop your own health care. Discuss it among yourselves. Sheesh!!! You interrupted the seal hunt. Now we have to kayak all the way out to the berg again.

BOBDOG3 wrote: You interrupted the seal hunt. Now we have to kayak all the way out to the berg again.

Oh yeah that sounds like a real Canadian to somebody who grew up in southern Ontario where there are no seals or ice bergs. :P

To: KBlowry

I'm in Toronto. It was a joke. Get real.

You just have to love the fact the Canadians are more concerned about our health care system on humanitarian grounds then the Republican Party.

And will American churches kick in to help British Columbia do the 1100 or so operations that it had to cancel last month? Or some of the 25000 people who dies of heat stroke two summers ago in France??

Jack Bauer is pro-health care reform? He's destroying Rush Limbaugh's fantasy! Now who will OxyRush pretend that he is?

If Canada can afford it, ask them why. Is Canada tasked to protect the world? How much do they spend to protect it?

Posted by: spidermean2
--------------------------------------
Who gave America the task to "protect the world"? Not Canada I can assure you.

Does protecting the world include starting an illegal war? Does protecting the world include the Palestinians that your American weapons kill by way of the Israelis? Does Protecting the world include killing innocent women and children in Pakistan and Afghanistan? Does protecting the world include getting involved in wars that you had no reason to be involved in?

The difference between Canadians and Americans is easy. Canadians pay higher taxes to provide health coverage to all citizens. Americans go further in debt to provide death around the world.

It must be strange for Canadians to watch us portray their system as one where people die waiting all the time and that Canadians really long to flee to America where they can get the best care. Unfortunately, fantastic tales of death dealing Canadian Health care will have to continue because that country provides a horrfying example for American conservatives, of a national health system that works without "death councils".

"The Church will not accept any legislation that mandates coverage, public or private, for abortion, euthanasia, or embryonic stem-cell research . . . No health care reform is better than the wrong sort of health care reform."

Yeah, well, I've got news for the Church. They don't run this country. This isn't Ireland, Malta, or the Philippines. Keep your Church out of the government or prepare to be taxed.

Palm Springs Girl: I'd rather wait in line for an MRI than have my insurance deny it and not get it at all.

Russ Poter: Do you know how much the US owes the UN? Do you know how in debt we are to China? Maybe you should think a little about what you're going to say before you go pointing fingers. If the rule was that you have to pay up before you have a say, then the US better keep its hands out of other countries, right? But I bet you were all about supporting Bush's violent incursions, weren't you?

Conservatives believe in Social Darwinism, a survival of the fittest society. They claim to be Christian but in practice are anything but Christian.

Health care for all is a moral right not a privilege. Investment in the following three things are important for a good functioning civilized society. Items are listed in order of importance.

1. Universal health care
2. Education
3. Infrastructure

If Americans wanted Canadian Health Care, then let them move to Canada as refugees!!! Then they can stand in line for an MRI, Cat Scan and those new wonderful cancer treating drugs the Smilin' Teddy was able to get but Canadians can't. Great system, eh?
Posted by: PalmSpringsGirl
-----------------------
Is it fun to make up stuff then ridicule the phony "facts" you made up"? If we create a system that you don't like, can we count on you to move OUT? Please?

Thanks, but we don't need a dumbo drunk like Sutherland to tell us what's good for us.
If he doesn't like our health care, send him up north of the border. He has enough money to buy himself service there without too long a wait.

websterr1 wrote: "I wonder where Canadians will get their cheap, effective drugs once American citizens have "free" health care and are no longer subsidizing the research required to find them?"

Do you really think the drug companies put all their profits into R&D? The government provides grants for much of the R&D at universities and when something comes out that looks promising is shared with the drug companies. Then they put their profits into an already identified moneymaker. In other words, many drugs are discovered with tax money, not by drug makers. But drug makers do develop the process for making it into a deliverable drug (e.g., possibly altering its chemistry and making it into a pill that can be swallowed) and test its safety and effectiveness.

But the question is, why are drug makers then given exclusive rights to a drug discovered with taxpayer money?

i've traveled to and from Canada and talked with many people about their healthcare, and they all say the same thing. You have to wait for a doctor, wait for surgery, wait for rehab you spend most of the time waiting to see someone. If it was so great why did Hillary Clinton's friend come to the US to have her breast surgery? If this healthcare is so great why isn't the government officials going to have the same as everyone else?

My fellow Americans...
I remember what it was like to have insurance with my employer where I spent approximately $250 a month to cover myself and my spouse with insurance that had a $1000 deductible, and my out of pocket never met my deductible on a yearly except the one year my husband had a heart attack, and then I was only out of pocket 25K on a 500k bill. Really, meds still cost out the a and now that I am divorced, changed jobs, and am older, healthcare isn't even an option. It was bad when it was available, and worse now that it isn't.
For those who say we can't afford this, what do you think is really already happening with our Medicare and Social Security system. Those who believe that all they have paid in will be available to them when age appropriate and that it will be close to making a dent in your daily needs... WAKE UP AMERICA... Social Security is almost bankrupt and Medicare is a land for the PPO's and HMO's to steal from taxpayer and the doctors that provide the service on a daily basis...
Why would drug company's promise a trillion dollar cut to Medicare? Because they overcharge Medicare by TRILLIONSSSSS (please note multiple s's) yearly... Of course they can give one trillion back and not even loose any bonuses for upper echelon... hmmmm... Let things stay the same? REALLY?? To whom is that practical... My prayers are for our leaders daily to remember the tired, the weak, those without money and therefore no voice... Please support our leaders to make good decisions. While you can never please everyone, perhaps this bill can take on the medical creed which is... DO NO HARM.

first of all, all those actors have millions to get their own Health care...
I ask, what does Faith have to do with health Care...
Since you question GOD more often than not...
Why can't we question the politicians whom we have lost trust in...
if the goverment wanted they could fix the problem of the uninsured without taking over the health care of the whole United states...
I guess you won't see it until it effects you...

Posted by: DwightCollins

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Awesome, sign me up.

Where's the plan to do this without "taking over" by the gov't?

A WASTE OF TIME

russpotter: Go to www.newsweek.com/id/183670 for lessons on how to avoid bankruptcy as a nation, as reported by a CNN commentaor (SIC).

Posted by: sjag1 | September 1, 2009 11:34 AM

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Not going to waste my time, reading something by someone who, like MESSIAH, KNOWS NOTHING about the reality of providing medical care.

START OVER. MESSIAH SCREWED UP. HE'S FROM CHICAGO.

Of course, if Christians followed their holy book in its entirety instead of cherry-picking, they'd go for faith healing instead. http://www.heterodoxy.com/societyofchristians/blog.html#051025

Once again some incentives to live a healthy life style and also ways to pay for universal health care.

1. An added two dollar health insurance tax (or higher) on a pack of cigarettes. Ditto taxes on alcolholic beverages, the higher the alcohol content, the higher the tax. Ditto for any product shown to be unhealthy (e.g. guns, high caloric/fatty foods??)

2. Physicals akin to those required for life insurance- the overly obese will pay signficantly more Medicare and universal health insurance (unless the obesity is caused by a medical condition).

3. No universal health care coverage for drivers driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs or using cell phones while driving.

4. No universal health coverage for drug addicts or for those having self-inflicted STDs.

5. No univeral health coverage for abortions unless the life of the mother is at significant risk and judged to be so by at least two doctors.

6. No universal health coverage for euthanasia.

7. No foreign aid given to countries who abort females simply because they are female.

A point of view from Canada:

I'm not one of those people who sees Tommy Douglas as the greatest Canadian, but there is one fact that seems to be missing from the whole debate in the US .. blah, blah, blah ..

-----------

CANUCKS, PAY YOUR BILL

As an AMERICAN authentically concerned that the plutocrats are BANKRUPTING the USA (I'm bi-partisan) -- I will NOT be FORCED into another INSANE SPENDING plan.

Especially by outsiders who --

(1) REFUSE TO PAY their FAIR SHARE of medical research costs that the USA HAS PAID and

(2) their share of the USA nuclear umbrella.

Canadians, you have cost USA taxpayers at least $5,000,000,000.00 for the above.

When you pay those bills -- we'll talk. NOT ONE SECOND SOONER.

Oh. And that is what my God said. She also said your God is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

Also, even if MESSIAH were as white as Karl Rove -- he would be INCOMPETENT!!! DROP THE RACE CARD CANARD!

The WHO data? LIES from FOOLS who attack the USA every day. Absolute BS.

Tell K. Sutherland to sober up. He's making a fool of himself -- again.

Have a nice day.

I have rarely seen so much misinformation in one place. First of all for the myth of Canadians rushing to the US for health care. While there are Canadians who go to the US for treatment I would point out that there are Americans who come to Canada for treatment. Sick Children's in Toronto for example is a world leader in pediatric medicine so Americans sometimes opt to have their children treated there. This is just one of many examples too numerous to list.

While there are problems with the Canadian health care system, critical care is not one of the problems. Cancer patients get excellent timely care. I know, I am a 7 year cancer survivor from one of the poorest provinces in the country.

There is a problem with orthopedic surgery in that there is a shortage of physical operating rooms for this area of medicine. They are working on this and with persistence and the replacement of the current right wing government this will be rectified.

One last thought. In Canada no one lets grandma die and no one goes bankrupt paying to keep her alive. On the other hand, grandma will die if she is poor in the US or the family will go broke paying the bill to keep her alive.

Not going to waste my time, reading something by someone who, like MESSIAH, KNOWS NOTHING about the reality of providing medical care.

START OVER. MESSIAH SCREWED UP. HE'S FROM CHICAGO.

Posted by: russpoter
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Gotta luv someone who thinks they know everything. Must be a Republican, present them with facts and they are either too stupid to read them or too arrogant to think they might not know something.

pretty dam* funny to have keifer, who's show endorses torture, take a moral stand.

I live in Point Roberts, WA. Look it up on a Map. I can throw a base ball into Canada from my porch. My husband and I use Canadian doctors, dentist and Naturopath. Canadian Medical is excellent. The only reason Canadians cross the border is because they want certain procedures immediately instead of waiting on a list.
The medicine practiced in Canada is excellent. Cheaper and the doctors don't mega dose their patients with drugs.
If like me you want to pay out right there is no waiting at all.
Stop bashing Canadian medicine if you have no direct experience with it.

Please remember that the bishop whose letter was quoted does NOT speak for all the Catholic bishops of the USA. Ask any Catholic priest and most Catholic bishops and they will stress health care as a basic component of human dignity and the right to life. Consider also the way the Bishop and Auxiliary Bishop of Scranton have had their resignations simultaneously accepted by the Vatican. The first reverend gentleman once went on record denouncing Joe Biden's support for abortion. Of course he had nothing to say about a war launched on false testimony that took the lives of a million arabs and displaced four times that number. Bishops like him are a minority in the Church, and hopefully will speak their piece and move on. For them it is better to preserve the unborn than the born, and to discount the value of a life taken in Iraq.

Hyacin,

Hello neighbor.

The only thing you forgot to mention is that the Canadians who are crossing the border because they don't want to wait are not waiting for life-saving surgery.

I know of 3 people (I live in White Rock, BC)who, in the last year, were told they would need to wait for surgery longer than 3 weeks. A friend was going in for a tummy tuck and had the procedure done in a major hospital because of a history of asthma, my brother-in-law's sister went in for a nose job and her surgery was canceled when her surgeon was called to emergency surgery for facial injury after a car accident, and another friend who wanted a tummy tuck and waited for 20 days to reschedule (after waiting 18 days for the original operation date) after her operating room was used for emergency cardiac surgery.

I know the husband of my son's teacher had a heart attack last year. From the time he entered the hospital until he entered the operating room for his angioplasty he waited 4 hours. 24 hours after the angioplasty he was again in the operating room for double bypass surgery.

Do people slip between the cracks? Yes, because no system is perfect. Would I change my system? No, because only a few slip between the cracks.

The majority of Catholic Bishops and Priests value ALL HUMAN LIFE, including the unborn, the "living", and the elderly. This value system is shared by Catholics.

Progressives may have a better chance with Nationalized Health Care if they cooperated with the Catholic and Evangelical populations to ensure federal funding is not and will never be used for abortions, euthanasia, and embryonic stem cell research. The Catholic and Evangelical populations are sympathetic to the needs of the poor and utilize great resources to aid the poor.

The issue at hand must not be whether we can or should have major health care reform, it is how we can achieve health care reform at a SUSTAINABLE level.

What does Social Security and Medicare have in common? THEY ARE NOT SUSTAINABLE!

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=20837

http://www.publicintegrity.org/investigations/broken_government/articles/entry/1063/

We need to fix our deficit, fix social security, fix Medicare, and Yes, provide health care reform.

We do not need to throw a bill together that will further exacerbate our financial woes. Fix our failing programs and make them sustainable.

Sustainable programs must be mandated!!!

hi i read the post and agree with the Canadians the English the French the German and the rest of the.. civilized... world on what is necessary and ethical... I am appalled by the catholic church and others forgetting about the the rights to life for those who ..ARE ALREADY ALIVE...DO YOU NOT SEE THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE REAL HUMAN BEINGS DIE JUST LIKE YOU DID NOT SEE THE LITTLE BOYS BEING MOLESTED? i'm no fan of abortion but if if we were sane about education and birth control it would be a moot issue. the only reason it is still an issue is becuase the money involved in the power of organized politics which flsely claim religious grounds. it is not about life or saving life.. please don't insult me and every one else who has been refused proper health care and almost died in america. i will pray for the good catholic bishops who protected thier own instead of the people in thier flock, and think they have a ...moral voice.. they speak because of money and power not ethnics and what is actually right in my opinion. No policy is better than one that is not perfect??? this is non-sensical give me a break you hippo-critts

California is releasing 27,000 of its prison inmates coz they can't afford to feed them anymore. They also plan to legalize pot to get funds. Thanks a lot to stupidity in their government. I wonder how the universal health care advocates plan to finance the program. Sell cocaine?

Health care for everyone? Talk is easy. Doing it is another matter.

If there are less idiots in this world, universal health care won't be that hard to achieve.

The main problem is stupidity and it's ironic why those with the loudest mouth trumpeting a single payer system are actually the main reason why health care for everyone is not so easy to attain.

America spend so much money fighting leftist socialist idiots around the world. The money spent could have been used to help other people in need and not to hunt down idiots abroad.

ALYSHEBA_3 wrote " Who gave America the task to "protect the world"? Not Canada I can assure you."

If not for America, Canada would just be another Japanese province. If you'd like to know how would they run it, maybe you should ask the Koreans.

You should read a little of history.

ALYSHEBA_3 wrote " Who gave America the task to "protect the world"? Not Canada I can assure you."

If not for America, Canada would just be another Japanese province. If you'd like to know how would they run it, maybe you should ask the Koreans.

You should read a little of history.

Posted by: spidermean2
------------------------------------------
Let's start way back, like WWI:
Vimy Ridge, The Somme, Hill 70, Lens, and Pachendale to name a few.

WWII:
Dieppe, D-Day, Battle of the Atlantic, Battle of Britian (where my grandfather died), Belgium (at Flanders Fields, you may know that poem, written by a Canadian), Normandy, Hong Kong.......the list goes on.

Korean War:
Canadians were fighting there for 3 years with the most famous battle being Kapyong.

Americans couldn't even be bothered to join WWII until it affected them directly. They never gave a damn about the rest of the world. They still don't unless they figure that they get something out of it.

That's the problem with this health insurance reform. Americans seem to be more worried about what they can get out of it, rather than what they can do for others.

And as for what Canadians have done for health care, other than be Christian enough to "Love thy neighbor as thyself", feel free to check out this website:

http://www.legionmagazine.com/en/index.php/2009/08/eight-great-canadian-medical-breakthroughs/

From the same website:

"Others cite a Canadian culture of collaboration, reflected in the spirit of generosity found in researchers across the country. They are generous in sharing ideas, sharing credit for work and expressing admiration for other researchers. A number have refused to profit from their discoveries, preferring to share their ideas with anyone who can use them to do good. Some have even used their prize money to fund other researchers."

Alysheba_3, Spidermean2 has been entertaining us with witty remarks for a long time. I find it best to read his posts in that light rather than respond to them.

The pluses and minuses of US and Canadian health care are reviewed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems

One very troubling aspect of Canada's health system is the following note from another reference:

"First off, all abortions are and have long been fully paid for by Canada's government provided health care. There are also other objectionable or otherwise questionably necessary procedures and research projects that are funded by the Canadian system, to which all Canadians are forced to pay for via their taxes. This has contributed to a dangerous culture of rapidly declining respect for the inherent dignity of human life within the Canadian medical system."

What are missing in both systems are incentives for living a healthy life style and also added ways to pay for universal health care.

Again:

1. An added two dollar health insurance tax (or higher) on a pack of cigarettes. Ditto taxes on alcolholic beverages, the higher the alcohol content, the higher the tax. Ditto for any product shown to be unhealthy (e.g. guns, high caloric/fatty foods??)

2. Physicals akin to those required for life insurance- the overly obese will pay signficantly more Medicare and universal health insurance (unless the obesity is caused by a medical condition).

3. No universal health care coverage for drivers driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs or using cell phones while driving.

4. No universal health coverage for drug addicts or for those having self-inflicted STDs.

5. No univeral health coverage for abortions unless the life of the mother is at significant risk and judged to be so by at least two doctors.

6. No universal health coverage for euthanasia.

7. No foreign aid given to countries who abort females simply because they are female.

Chagasman

Do not give up on the Church. The problem is with those who claim to represent the Church.

As you rightly observe, the conservative philosophy is one of selfishness and greed, and it is devoid of empathy. But just because they call them Conservative Christians and Evangelical Christians, does not make them Christians or even true members of THE Church.

Their attitude and teaching regarding government, the poor and personal responsibility, cannot be squared with the teachings of Christ, whom they claim to follow.

Right now, the wheat and tares gorw together, but in the end the true Church will be separated from the tares. So the Church is still viable and good.

Thanks tomscanlon1 for providing the statistics.

It is only when you see the real numbers that you can compare the sytems. The differences between US and Canada are staggering.