Vatican Tells Holocaust Denier to Recant

Why does it seem that, whether in government or at the Vatican, no one is being properly vetted? First McCain picks know-nothing Sarah Palin, then Obama picked no-taxes Dashle, and then the pope recinds an excommunication on someone who never recanted the reason he was excommunicated.

Is everyone just getting lazy these days? That would explain a lot? Or maybe those in power just think people are willing to accept idiots and hypocracy. I'm not sure. But one thing is certain. Those in power seem to be listening and making changes based on what people are saying. That is refreshing.

I do think its too late for Williamson and the others to recind their statements. Personally I don't like to see people recind statements under duress, which Williamson would be doing. The pope would need to explain why someone who made public statements as Williamson did can recant and be a different person after recanting. I don't think even the pope could make that pig fly.

Waiting for the bottom feeders to crawl out of their holes and start screaming that now the Pope too is under the power of the "Lobby".

Recanting smacks too much of the days of Galileo. A wise guy might say that as former head of the "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith", the Pope would not know any other way to handle this but to make the offender recant. But just as in Galileo's case, recanting is sure to be a meaningless gesture, not an indication of a true change of heart.

What is the solution? There isn't any good one. Only one thing is certain: Whichever way this story unfolds, the Jews will end up worse off.

All of the horrific atrocities committed by humankind against humankind need to be constantly reviewed.

A good starting point is the body counts from these atrocities as found at http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm

-some excerpts that should be "burned in" your memories:

Rank Death Toll Cause Centuries
1 55 million Second World War 20C
2 40 million Mao Zedong (mostly famine) 20C
3 40 million Mongol Conquests 13C
4 36 million An Lushan Revolt 8C
5 25 million Fall of the Ming Dynasty 17C
6 20 million Taiping Rebellion 19C
7 20 million Annihilation of the American Indians 15C-19C
8 20 million Iosif Stalin 20C
9 19 million Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C
10 18 million Atlantic Slave Trade 15C-19C
11 17 million Timur Lenk 14C-15C
12 17 million British India (mostly famine) 19C
13 15 million First World War 20C
14 9 million Russian Civil War 20C
15 8 million Fall of Rome 3C-5C
16 8 million Congo Free State 19C-20C
17 7 million Thirty Years War 17C
18 5 million Russia's Time of Troubles 16C-17C
19 4 million Napoleonic Wars 19C
20 3 million Chinese Civil War 20C
21 3 million French Wars of Religion

Reference, Rummel:

European War Dead (1939-45): 28,736,000
Sino-Japanese War Dead (1937-45): 7,140,000

TOTAL: 35,876,000

War-related Democides

Hitler: 20,946,000
Stalin: 13,053,000
Japanese: 5,964,000
Chinese Nationalist: 5,907,000
Allied Bombing: 796,000
Croatian: 655,000
Tito: 600,000
Romanian domestic democide: 484,000
Chinese Communist: 250,000
Hungarian democide in Yugoslavia: 78,000

[TOTAL: 48,733,000]

[FINAL TOTAL (1937-45): 84,609,000]

Bevjims1,
Please wake up and at-least make a half-hearted attemp to become informed on the topic before you post. This man was not excommunicated because of his views on the Holocaust. He was excommunicated because he agreed to be ordained by the French Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre against a direct order by John Paul II. Lefebvre founded the Society of St. Pius the X (SSPX), and his actions got himself and those accepting his ordination excommunicated. As the recent statement from the Vatican points out, the lifting of the order of excommunication had nothing to do with his views on the Holocaust, views which were not publically known to anyone until a Danish documentary in which the bishop was interviewed was released...taped months ago, but held by the producers for release until the very day the excommunications were rescinded. The lifting of excommunication does not mean that this bishop and the SSPX (of which he is a member) is wholly reunified with the Catholic Church or that he has any episcipal (i.e. pastoral) function within the Catholic Church. The group of excommunications was lifted so that the SSPX and Vatican would talk to each other and hopefully begin working towards reconciliation with one another. The statement released by the Vatican today, mere days after all of this came to light, states that if he wishes to take on any function as a bishop within the church, he will have to renounce his views. As it stands now hew has, and never has had any such function.

Well it's nice to see that the Pope's men respond to political pressure, rather than to an internal moral compass.

I think their moral compass needs a little moral correction, rather than it being sensitive only to shifts in the political winds.

There's nothing particularly surprising about the Pope wishing to bring these people back into the church. The fact is, he's a conservative, circa 12th Century, and on top of that is not used to the world stage. He spent his life cloistered, studying drivel, and because of that now finds himself saying things and doing things that are regarded by most of the world as nonsensical. He's not a bad man, just an unworldly one. We'll probably get more Whoops! from this Pope in the coming years.

Why should anyone lie about their beliefs? Why would anyone want to belong to a religion that demands allegiance or face excommunication (whatever that is)? Why bother to attend church if you are commanded to think a certain way under the threat of excommunication?

I believe that the holocaust happened. I believe that I am strong enough to listen to anyone who does not believe as I do without having a desire to punish that person because of his beliefs. I believe that the past should become the past. What happened more than sixty years ago must be relegated to the past so let’s get on with it.

The reference to Galileo (MICHAELNJ's post) is a provocative one. Perhaps the Inquisition can take the bishop into the torture chamber and show him what will be done to him if he does not recant. I'll bet he will. Then, as with Galileo, the Church can put him under house arrest for the rest of his life. One difference though: the Church won't have to (grudgingly) admit, a few hundred years later, that it was wrong and that the bishop was right as it did with Galileo.

EgregiousPhilbin:

Yes, well, thankfully those days are behind us, and the Pope should have realized that the use of Thought-Police terminology is as out-of-place today as the use of Thought-Police practices.

The bishop should be allowed to speak out and to show himself for the revolting piece of human scum that he is, and the Pope should be allowed to make whatever decision he wants about the bishop, and we should all be allowed to tell the Pope what we think of him and of his choice, and as long as everything is done within the law, no one should have to fear any retribution for expressing himself. That's what sets us apart from the days of Galileo.

Of course the Holocaust took place. It has been thoroughly documented, and the perpetrators paid the price. But, presently, I find it a bit hipocritical that the Gaza deniers are making such stink attacking a single Holocaust denier.

CCNL:

Given that it's Under God, I found this information as an adjunct to the site you cited:

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/01/how-many-has-god-killed-complete-list.html

The final tally was 33,041,220.

Clearly there is room for Holocaust deniers.

In the old days the Church would have had no problem getting this guy to recant. They knew how to do it. And the option, of course, would have been burning him at the stake if he chose not to recant.

Nowadays the Church is toothless and can only 'urge' a guy to change his mind or be excommunicated.Feeble stuff. The guy can simply lie and say "OK I DO believe in the holocaust - you happy now?"

Religion is forever stuck in the dark ages, and should have been dumped long ago. In the twenty first century 'faith' is a joke, and the pope a clown in fancy dress; good for a giggle.

THE POPE OPENED ANOTHER CAN OF WORMS, YET THERE IS A REFORMATION GOING ON WHERE THE MEMBERS ARE VOTEING WITH THEIR FEET.

It just shows how irrelevant religion has become. The biggest scam ever perpetrated on the human race is slowly falling apart. Not a day too soon!

Catholics seem to value public recantations, sincere or not. Remember the "Holy" Inquisitions?

Maybe now Benedict can get Cardinals Mahoney and Rivera to "recant" their hiding a pedophile priest from US Justice in the Mexican state of Puebla. Then we would know Benedict is sincere about stopping child molestations.

I was born in Europe. During my childhood no question that catholic kids were the most antisemitic; they made no bones that they were taught by their priest. No wonder their "savior" never embraced Catholicism, hah-hah. What a bunch of sorry schmucks. PS. Didn't they invent "don't ask-don't tell"?

HELL NO! This bishop should not recant. He has a right to his opinion.

The jews have manage to lay a guilt trip on the entire world. They use the holocaust to give themselves moral superiority over everyone. When will the world wake up this intimidation tactic, and tell the jews to "GET OVER IT"?

I notice in CNL's list of the slaughter of human beings throughout history he left out those killed through the Crusades, the Inquisition, Reformation, etc. Maybe because this information is not readily available? I wonder why? Could it be that The Church denies that it ever happened, you know, like the Bishop who denies that the Holocaust ever happened?
What all of these atrocities and wars have in common is that they were committed by IDEOLOGUES, whether atheist, agnostic, or religious . . . you know, someone or some belief that says, "I have all the answers to everything and if you get in my way, I'll kill you."

What a silly idea. Who's going to believe his recantation? Hasn't the Catholic Church learned anything in the past 500 years.

What will happen if he doesn't recant? I don't think the Jesuits have any Inquisition supplies any more. Maybe Monty Python could help, though. Certainly no one expected the Spanish Inquisition.

Nope; a mandated or highly-pressured recantation means nothing at all.

SOooo,

SOME Americans, some kinds of Americans, don't beliefe in freedom of speech? If it involves anything about them?

Sickening.

And in fact, this is all about the fact that the Pope had harsh things to say about the Israeli
savage incursion into Gaza. And of course the only answer was to yell "holocaust".

This story was over days ago. And disgusts most people, in any case. Same old things is getting
worse than weary.

Actually what the religous leaders believe or do not believe matters little to me. Religion (Faith) is simply endoctrination to prevent people from thinking rationally.

momj47,

Great post. I'm roflol over the Spanish Inquisition reference.

And you're right. The bishop can recant 'til the cows come home, but that won't change what he believes. Ultimately, then, the Pope would be requiring the bishop to lie publicly.

A lose-lose situation all around.

I have just about given up on this whole thing. I was raised as a Catholic and I still attend Church weekly, but I am becoming more and more depressed as I see the Church want to connect with right-wingers who actually deny the Holocaust, but they still refuse to believe that the Jesus I believe in could not in the 21st century say that women are still inferior creatures who can't be priests, who can't have leadership in the church, while they do virtually every where else.

1932,World Jewish Congress counts 32 million Jews.
1947, World Jewish Congress counts 33 million Jews.
Studies I have read count Jewish deaths during WWII at approximately 750,000. 6 is a mystical number in Jewish mysticism which may account for the 6 million figure. Miami Beach, FL is filled with hundreds of thousands of Holocaust (Shoah) survivors. These figures make me wonder about the 6 million figure. Hitler's father was Jewish. Bolshevik communists were heavily Jewish which accounts for many of the Jewish deaths.

the padre sounds whacko, but i defend his right to speak his mind.

anything else would no different from mullahs placing a fatwa on salman rushdie. or violence objection to danish cartoons.

Religion is all about belief: some of those beliefs are good for the soul, and some will inevitably be bad. Don't the holocaust deniers in the Catholic faith deserve at least one of their own? Why do we have to subject people in power to a higher standard than ourselves.

"1932,World Jewish Congress counts 32 million Jews.
1947, World Jewish Congress counts 33 million Jews."

This is garbage on many levels, not the least of which is the simple fact that there have never been "32 million Jews" on earth, so wherever this idiot cut and pasted from needs to update its gibberish.

Not a surprising episode. How Ratzinger go elected is beyond me....

The un-excommunicating has nothing to do with vetting. It has to do with freindships and alliances in the Curia and the highest levels of the Church...Benedict as it were. John Paul, to his credit seemed quite capable at balancing the Curia, even though accasionally, one saw a bit of push back.

Benedict appears to like the rush of being pontiff...plain and simple. The pomp, the circumstance. And as a conservative he is probably much more sympathetic to LeFebvre's Four.

I want to say that the only surprise might be the Curia and Pope Benedict seem apparently taken aback by the almost universal rebuke they have recieved over this action. This reflects a high level arrogance as well as strong suggestion of 'disconnectedness' on their part.

Very sad commentary with the real moral and leadership issues Mother Church has to deal with. But its is not much different from the attitude that brought us 'The Scandal' as my more discreet freinds refer to it.

jm817 : You said
" I have just about given up on this whole thing. I was raised as a Catholic and I still attend Church weekly, but I am becoming more and more depressed as I see the Church want to connect with right-wingers who actually deny the Holocaust, but they still refuse to believe that the Jesus I believe in could not in the 21st century say that women are still inferior creatures who can't be priests, who can't have leadership in the church, while they do virtually every where else."

You have two issues here. Lets take them one at a time:
1) The church is not trying to connect with Right wingers who deny the Holocaust. It is trying to work ot bring this Group back into the Church, but on the Church's terms. Pope Benedict was quick to correct Bishop Williamson's errant views and will not be reconciled with him,until he has. Similarly, until they recant of their previous positions and accept Church teachings, the Pius XII group will not be reinstated in any official capacity.

2. You are obviously disturbed that the priesthood is not open to you, but you mention a lack of power. The priesthood is about service not power. As a priest, your life is not your own, but Gods. You have no money, you owe your full obedience to God and your bishop, and of course you are celibate to allow you to spend all your time and energy on works of God for your parishioners. If this life appeals to you, Catholic nuns' have the same ideals.

Both Benedict and Williamson are notorious for opening their mouths before putting their brains in gear. But what else can you expect from clerics with limited educations and vast ignorance of the shameful history of the religion they represent.

Pope Benedict's personal recording device picked up theis chatter: "The public actually has the gall to ASK ME QUESTIONS let alone expect a RESPONSE. Must be sinners or aetheists, not true believers because they DON'T QUESTIONS anything their "leader" says or suggests. Bunch of SOB's."

The church is irrelevant. Williamson could recant the existance of birds and no one cares. He is a distraction, nothing else. He deserves no attention, except a dinner invite from Iran's President.

I encourage Williamson to hold his ground. Only then can the true hipocracy of the church be exposed.

hyjanks :

Since you apparently did not read the reference so cited i.e. http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm

Analogous data are cited in the same reference for the Crusades, Inquisition and Reformation under the title, "European Wars, Tyrants, Rebellions and Massacres (800-1700 CE)

fr scottchallenger:

>I encourage Williamson to hold his ground. Only then can the true hipocracy of the church be exposed.

You would "encourage" a known LIAR to "hold his ground", even though he is shooting off at the mouth about known FACTS about the Holocaust?

How sad. How utterly pathetic.

poorrichard and vicsoir:

You two have obviously never read anything that Pope Benedict has written. He is a tremendously talented writer and theologian and is certainly worthy of to be the leader of the Church. He is one of the most educated and knowledgeable men on earth.

Scottchallenger:
If Williamson doesn't recant, he will never act in an official capacity in the church. There will be no hypocracy. And as for the Catholic Church being irrelevant, it may be to you but it certainly is not to the hundreds of millions of devoted Catholics who look to it for truth and the path to salvation. To those that care nothing about that, then of course it is irrelevant.

As a recovering RCC'er, I find all of this pretty amusing. Bernie is a weird guy and the church needs to keep better control of him before he makes things even worse for them.

The RCC is a real dinosaur trying to wrest back control and trying to bring reprobates back into the fold because they're desperate for members.

Too bad. So sad

So what if the good Bishop denies the Nazi genocide of the Jews? He believes in god, and that's about as far from reality as his genocide denial.

At least he's consistently irrational.

Words are easily misinterpreted - or not written correctly to begin with. So another try.

I'm hoping Willaamson does not recant. He's a fool and the world should want him exposed for his foolish beliefs. Not recanting achieves this.

And agree or not, it also exposes the church to the hypocracy in their process and their rationale. What process? What rationale? Exactly my point. None exists. Except that he's been rehabiliated. What a joke.

Rehabiliated about what exactly? The holocaust? Yea, right. Keep denying, Williamson. Don't recant. Be the loser that we know that you are. And please continue to wear the religious garb, it really paints a good picture for all to see - a man the utmost hypocracy being a man of god. Very fitting.

It's too bad these On Faith blogs keep getting cluttered with so many vulgar and dirty comments.
Why can't you people go clutter other dirtier weblogs and allow people with real knowledge and better intentions to discuss with these acknowledged academics, however controversial?

The sad thing is that it takes a lot of discipline to carry on discussions with opposing or differing views without getting emotionally riled up.

Try channeling your emotional energy into a more powerful intellectual argument, instead of being destructive.

Based on my review of Jewish and non-Jewish studiers of the Holocaust, there is much interesting brew about the Holocaust to cover up through the intellectually dishonest ruberick of "refusal-to- dignify."

I'll bet Christ too was met with "Refusal to Dignify," as probably was any other good Semitic Prophet or Bringer of God's Message for that matter.

Far too often the response to Holocaust "deniers" is to shut them up and censor their research. In the matter of Truth, it obviously matters NOT what mental state, psychic problem, or irrational hatred is the driving force behind someone who doubts and researches and wants to propagate alternative histories of the Holocaust.

If the facts are what they are (Truth), wouldn't awareness of the facts be good to shed light on, so as to study the Holocaust and what really were its causative factors and thus help to prevent it from happening again? Credibility of a person matters, but only as a clue to the facts put forth by that personality.

It is a mistake to confuse credibility with the veracity of facts put forth by a person—and that some Jewish people support Holocaust re-examination is a strong clue to the mainstream held view of the Holocaust.

If Americans can debate evolutionism in 2009, then one should not be surprised about Holocaust debate. Such a debate that successfully engages the facts would undoubtedly open a deep can of worms which could lead to a much more involved social earthquake, a sea change in the way Jewish people would be viewed and in the way they would view themselves, as in:

1) what different kinds of Jews are/were there,
2) which undesirable infames were Jewish,
3) which commendable exemplars of humanity were thought not to be Jews but really were, and
4) what is the fate of present day Jews who I believe are currently under hostage and manipulation by others claiming to be also Jewish.

I believe Jews, the real ones that is, are in danger of being yet again put out for bait and left for massacre as has happened many times by others claiming to be their Jewish brethren.

The Catholic Bishop should not recant what is in his black heart. He is a Jew hater and because the Holocaust is a proven documented fact he is also a moron. He should be excommunicated again as he should not have been reinstated in the first place.

Do I understand correctly that the reality of the Holocaust has been elevated to Dogma?

The Jews select our Presidents, now they want to appoint the Church's Bishops. PLUS freedom to root through the Church's Archives looking for more dirt to distract the Righteous World from the burials of 500 children, children that our Messiah, unlike theirs, particularly loved.

Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com

Protestants and Jews are unlikely to see much merit in the idea that the Pope can tell his flock what to think. Thinking for yourself is not one of Catholicism's central ideas and this controversy only underlines the fact that "politically correct" can mean "do what the Pope says." People with mad ideas, like the nutty bishop, should not be elevated to positions of power. I'm afraid this is not the Pope's or the Catholic church's finest hour.

So what if he recants. You recant, or you confess, and you are pardonned. So who is joint to pardon him? the Pope? a former Nazi himself?
Please!!! Stop this circus.

There really is no point in his recanting. He is only one among many racist priests, only one among many psychopaths. I've posted the names of other well known crazy Catholic bishops before. This paranoid, delusional racist not only wonders whether antisemitism is a bad think, but opines that 9/11 was an inside job.

Here's the Bishop discussing his 9/11 theory. We are dealing with lunatic, big time, as well as a far below average IQ. Tell me again why Vatican Nation is tax exempt in the US?

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/roman-catholic-bishop-richard-williamson-on-9-11-being-an-inside-job/2833073901

I hate to be picky over this subject, but technically Williamson is at least 50% correct and a solid argument could be made for a little bit more. Before you think I am a holocaust denier, I'm anything but. However, I do enjoy and study history.

Most Jewish scholars claims no more then 3 million Jews were actually gassed. The other 2.9 million died from shootings, starvation and disease primarily. Hence, making the claim 6 million Jews were not gassed is accepted historical fact. It also should be noted I have used the accepted Jewish scholars numbers and there is good likelihood these numbers are on the high side. However, whether the number was 2 million, 2.5 million or 3 million only supports the claim a systematic destruction of a religious group was taking place.

The second part of Williamson's claim ("as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler." is even more difficult then a statistical analysis of the deaths. It is true there is no master document that exists outlining the extermination of the Jews during WWII. However, there is compelling evidence through literally hundreds of documents, eye witness accounts and the actual faciliies that still exist today it was the intention of Hitler to exterminate the Jews along with Gypsies, people with physical and mental disorders and homosexuals. I will state there is no smoking gun document that specifically authorizes this extermination, but a compilation of documents discusses policies and actions generically and leaves little doubt what the intentions of the 3rd Reich were.

Personally, I have zero doubt it was Hitler's intent to exterminate the Jews along with the other groups I mentioned above. However, given the lack of any document specifying the extermination of the groups outlined it's not really that far of a stretch to deny there was a policy to do this.

I know very little about Williamson. He could just be another nut job who denys the holocausts existance. If that's the case he's chemically imbalanced enough where he would have been at risk of ending up in being exterminated under Hitler.

He has these false, despicable beliefs, he has reiterated them RECENTLY, but if he just says the magic words, poof! He's back in the church? That's just not good enough -- it's just hollow words, window dressing.

So comforting to know that 3 million were not gassed. They "just" died of starvation! Or shootings!

What, so that means the Nazis are not responsible for 6 million deaths? What sort of twisted reasoning is that?

I read an article today about how the Israel Defecation Farce (IDF) stopped a family trying to get three little girls badly burned with US taxpayer bombs to the hospital.

The IDF stopped the vehicle. Had the teen brothers get out. Shot them 37 times while they had their hands up. Then ran over them with a US taxpayer tank. They were found in pieces. Rescue workers couldn't get to them for 11 days.

By then the burned baby girl had been eaten by dogs.

And all we hear about is how Israel is the victim.

MASCMEN7- Your post makes sense as I remember right after WWII in NYC the figure of 6 million was making the rounds and to this day there isn't a published census of this number with names. I believe future economic restitution could have been a big motivation in inflating these figures. I hope the Palestians press their demands for their losses from their modern day HOLOCAUST.

The Nazis have plenty of well documented murders and atrocities to account for without the embellishment of the of 6 million executed in gas chambers, a figure that is simply not supported by forensic physical evidence. The Germans were fanatical record keepers and the body of data at Auschwitz is a gold mine for historical research and yet the only ones daring to evaluate it objectively are the renegade revisionist historians who risk imprisonment or, like the Bishop, professional isolation if they arrive at 'incorrect' interpretations. With the claimed mass exterminations physically impossible all the Nazi camp personnel "confessions" and "eyewitness" accounts are, like alien abduction testimony, simple not credible. Coke was used to fuel the crematoria that disposed of the dead whether by execution or natural causes. The records show that the shipments of coke to Auschwitz were simply insufficient to dispose of the millions claimed to have been executed in gas chambers. If this isn't enough of a smoking gun there are other infrastructure issues that corroborate the death figure limit imposed by crematory fuel availability. These are contracts to replace refractory tiles in the fire boxes, which is required after so many cycles to keep the crematory from burning up. The Holocaust cannot repeal the laws of physics. That mainstream historians are not even curious about this data shows how corrupt the academic establishment and indeed our society has become by allowing itself to be intimidated by one of its ethnic groups.

I am not aware that events outside the Bible itself, are under the direct control of the Vatican. That having now been said, the Bishop seems to have lost his ability to discern fact [the Holocaust did exist] from fiction [with the exception of the 300,000 he claims died, none by way of gas chamber mind you] maybe all the rest 'moved to Miami,' an absurd claim of another 'revisionist historian.'
--------------------------------------------------

IT IS FAR EASIER TO PROVE THE EXISTENCE OF THE HOLOCAUST, THAN THE DIVINITY OF JESUS CHRIST.
----------------------------------------

The Holocaust is hardly an event, remote in history and even in the Adolph Eichmann trial in Israel, the non existence of the Holocaust was never raised as a defense. The defense was essentially that Eichmann was 'following orders.'

With respect to the divinity of Jesus Christ as 'the only begotten Son of God,' we must first examine what the word begotten means. Then we must determine if the terms 'the Son of Man' and the 'Son of God' mean the same thing. We must disprove, for all intents and purposes, the claim made in the Talmud that the father of Jesus was a Roman soldier named Pantera. We must distinguish [if possible] a Mamzer [child of questionable parentage, here the father] from Nazareth with the purported biological father as being the husband of 'the Virgin Mary.' We must wonder why the Biblical Greek term used for Virgin means a woman who has never given birth, [vs. without sexual experience] instead of the Biblical Greek term for a physical Virgin, which was not used. We would also have to wonder how some of the 4 Gospels 'forgot' [sic] to observe such a striking occurrance, namely a 'virgin birth' and note approximately 28 other historical claims to 'virgin births.' Today we know that same can be accomplished by artificial insemination, which requires no 'rocket science' to accomplish.

We could examine, to the extent possible, the Talmud [teachings/beliefs] of John [John the Baptist] and wonder how Jesus was his 'disciple,' if both were born within 9 months of each other, as claimed in the Gospels -- both mothers visiting each other while pregnant [blessed is the fruit of your womb, etc.]

Perhaps, finally, we could carefully examine HOW Jesus in the last 3 years of his life [and exile] came to see himself as ‘the Son of Man and what that then meant. His insistence on God's Kingdom over Herod's Kingdom exiled him from Galilee, while His insistence on purity exiled him from the rich Hellenistic environment that might otherwise have supported him in his final years. His identification with the 'angel' known as 'the one like a person,' a.k.a. 'the Son of Man,' in all of its resonances and complexities, would later be misunderstood by the early Christian church and equated to another term, 'the Son of God,' which even still later would be amended to 'the only begotten Son of God.'

So, to answer the question once put to the Great prophet, Elijah, 'when will the Messiah come,' Elijah's answer was 'why don't you ask him yourself.' The disciple returned saying to Elijah, 'he [the Messiah] lied to me for He said He would come today, but He has not come.' Elijah responded, that the disciple misunderstood the Messiah's response. That, in fact, what the Messiah said was 'that He would come today IF the disciple would hear His voice.'

So then has the Messiah come and is he Jesus Christ. The position of the Vatican [which stands directly in the shoes of Peter] is that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, but since we can all only live in the 'now.' the observations of Elijah are most important, namely, he said he will come TODAY if you will hear his voice. [He is in the 'now' only for those who will 'hear' [observe] his voice [Talmud, Gospel or teachings.]

As to the meaning of the term ‘the Son of Man’ as it was then used by Jesus, in the 7th Chapter of the Book of Daniel. Daniel has two significant dreams about ‘the Throne of God.’ Surrounding ‘the Throne of God’ are 5 angelic beings, namely a lion, a bear, a leopard and a horned beast and ‘the one like a person’ [with a human-like face] also called ‘the Son of Man.’ In the second dream, an angel interprets Daniel’s visions for him. The ‘great beasts are 4 kings of Earth [the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians & Seleucids.] The 5th angel, the ‘one like a person’ represents Israel, and when Israel’s angel comes to rule, Israel’s sovereignty will last forever. [Israel was named for this angel in 1947, not the other way around.] The term “Israel” has more of a spiritual meaning as to the followers of Yahweh, than a specific geographic location, which arguably presents numerous contemporary issues in the region and is ripe for numerous arguments and misinterpretations by those who seek a return [ literal Zionists] to borders bound by the great rivers of the region.

2CTRUTH:

You read Jacksh*t, Cathonazi. Too busy cross-dressing with Pope Benny and Bishop Willy Nilly. And anyway you don't know how to read Christonazi. But guess what? I do.

Having fun bombing Iraqis, ChristoNazi? How come? Did they fire missiles at you for three years? Don't think so. But look what you've done.

_____________________

'Huge rise' in Iraqi death tolls
Iraqi woman mourns after car bomb attack in Shia holy city of Kufa, July 2006
Many Iraqis have lost relatives to violence
An estimated 655,000 Iraqis have died since 2003 who might still be alive but for the US-led invasion, according to a survey by a US university

OBVIOUS1:

MASCMEN7- Your post makes sense as I remember right after WWII in NYC the figure of 6 million was making the rounds and to this day there isn't a published census of this number with names.
______________________________
AH. Yeah. We know who they were. Guess we missed out on one Nazi in your case.

"IT IS FAR EASIER TO PROVE THE EXISTENCE OF THE HOLOCAUST, THAN THE DIVINITY OF JESUS CHRIST."

Jesus who? Is he that guy who keeps hanging around with that old Ponce Ratzinger?

the holocaust is not part of church dogma, its a political belief.
priests must follow dogma, not politics.
if the fool wants to deny the holocaust let him, but the church will not allow him to expouse that theory as a bishop stating the opinion of the church.
lots of fools deny many certain things, but no one seems to get in the way unless they are catholic priests. then its open season.
rejecting the long teaching in both the old and new testament against same sex relationships, now its ok to pretend it did not exist, and its just fine to have same sex relationships.
i have more concern with religious failing to follow the religion than i do with their problem with dumb political or historical statements.
and where were all of you catholic haters who are here now - when you have one billion islamics who are told the same thing every day by other islamics? not a word out of you there.

Were I the Pope I'd find another assignment for my errant bishops -- located in a sub-basement of the Vatican where their activities could be closely monitored.

The man's obviously a raging lunatic, how he was elevated to the episcopacy is a mystery. It also says something about the bishop(s) who elevated him.

infantry11b4fau:

Truthfully, there aren't any "Catholic haters." There are, rather, those who dislike Catholics using Holocaust denial as code for antisemitsm. The days of quiet, patient explanations to racist morons ended awhile ago. Perhaps, if the Catholics would care to deal with them, we, their victims, could spend our time differently.

After all, they really are your problem, are they not?

hey farnazz:

unless you missed it - jesus was a jew! his mother - mary was a jew. joseph was a jew. all of the original followers of jesus were jews.

and your statement proves my point - that catholics are all supposed to be holocaust disbelievers and therefore are all anti jew.

you need to get out more, like to a catholic mass. it might surprise you to know that EVERY mass starts with reading of the old testament.

Since we're on the subject of holocausts, how about the Israeli invasion of Gaza and its butchery of the Palestinians? Is there any difference between Williamson and the Israeli denial of atrocities against the civilian Palestinian population?

FMJK,

Twisted logic? I sincerely apologize. I was wrong to assume the average intelligence of someone on this thread would equal a third graders.

The basic history of the holocaust is well enough documented that no reasonable person can deny it's existance. What can and should be debated was the extent of the holocaust and tracing the policies that justified it in the 3rd Reich's mind. Of course this would only have meaning if one was interested in historical accuracy.

As with most catastrophic events numbers tend to be grossly inflated at the start. This was obviously true with the holocaust as well. Originally numbers were in the 11 million range and over time have been revised downward. Claims that about 20,000 Jews a day were being gassed until people started to ask basic questions like, "At 20,000 a day they would have been killing 7.3 million a year in one camp alone." Given the fact there were several camps engaging in extermination and the Jewish population in all of Europe at the time was approximately 9.5 million (again, a number from Jewish Sources) they would have killed every man, woman an child of the Jewish faith in a couple of months.

Unfortunately, and yes I mean unfortunately, Holocaust deniers point to these numbers over and over again as being to ludicrous to believe and hence since we were lied to about the numbers haven't we also been lied to about the event? They also point to the point there is no offical policy document anywhere (so far) that sets extermination as an offical State policy. Frankly, I hope this found so it can put this argument to rest. However, even without it a circumstantal claim was built to convict and execute a number of former Nazis.

As I stated in my first post I am not a holocaust denier. I believe it existed and I believe it was an atrocity that at least equals any atrocity that has happened in history. It was a despicable practice that not only should be remembered, but it also should be studied with the hopes it will never happen again.

Hence, before you start calling someones logic twisted do yourself a favor and learn something about the topic you're discussing.

I guess whether or not the Pope forces the Bishop and in fact the entire St. Pius X group to recant is really not the issue.

As one who lost his family in Poland during WWII, I don't need the Bishop or Pope to tell me whether or not it's true. In fact it might well be that the teaching of the Church for Centuries might be the problem.

As long as Jews will be accused of deicide unless they accept Jesus, nothing will ever change..

Papa

look perfectpapa
the jews did kill jesus. well actually the romans did when the jews demanded it.
but that really does not have anything to do with now. it was part of what had to happen - such is the way of things.
i know someone will say - the christians always talk about jews saying "let it be on us and our children". well that was what was called a blood oath and it was common then. "let it be on me and my family" is another version. they still use a similar oath in the world today.
ever heard "i swear on the graves of my children" meaning if i swear falsely you can kill my kids. it does not really mean that, its just a way of making a point.
judas i have a problem with, but the others, they were doing what they thought was right at the time. that was both politically and according to jewish law.
but as for today, no real christian can say he hates jews unless he also says he hates jesus, and then he cant really be a christian.
and as for that fool that brought up jews finally back against islamics - the jews should have done that years ago.
there is not one inch of ground that islam has not taken by force. so if we have to play "give it back" then islam should go first.
i support israel in its fight against islamic terror.

I will look at it as a case of wavering FAITH.

Heres the thing...this man is a psycho, saying what we want to here isn't going to change that. This man SHOULD NOT be allowed to be a representative of God. Would we let Tom Metzger be a representative of God? How about Tim McVeigh? I don't think so.

I think he should be locked up in a fruit-loops hospital where he belongs! I also think the current Pope should be kicked out the church himself if he takes this hateful idiot back into the fold. If he takes him back in it will be his past "Hitler Youth" membership shining through.

Everything about this is dirty and rotten to it core.

It seems that the whole of the Washington chattering class is quick to try to pick a speck out of the eye of the Church - while ignoring the log in their own. To begin with, Pope Benedict XVI acted to heal a schism in the Church. The act of schism was the illicit (but valid) ordination of four bishops by the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre.

The denial of the (Nazi) Holocaust - however reprehensible - does not rise to the level of schism. It becomes a matter of Church discipline when the Holocaust denier is a member of the clergy, especially a bishop. In fact, the Vatican has demanded that Bishop Williamson recant his statements.

Further, Bishop Williamson's remarks in the recent Swedish television interview - were not a denial that the Holocaust occurred, but a questioning of the numbers and the means by which executions were carried out. The Bishop's remarks would be viewed by most reasonable and informed people as mistaken. But they do not rise to the level of heresy. Stupidity and gross insensitivity - perhaps so.

In the meantime last week, 50 "Catholic" U.S. lawmakers addressed a letter to the Pope demanding that he, the Pope, repudiate Bishop Williamson's statements. (The Pope has already done so.) I wonder how many of these 50 "Catholics" signed the letter with hands bloodied by their votes for abortion - the ongoing U.S. and world-wide Holocaust of millions of pre-born babies?

fr paulc2:

>You two have obviously never read anything that Pope Benedict has written. He is a tremendously talented writer and theologian and is certainly worthy of to be the leader of the Church. He is one of the most educated and knowledgeable men on earth....

Writer and "theologian"? To an extent, but not NEARLY as good as his immediate predecessor.

Worthy of to be the Pope? Oh, HECK no. Anyone who looks the other way when some Holocaust denier nutball keeps shooting off his mouth is NOT worthy to be Pope.

There is no way to soft pedal the denial of the Holocaust. It is reprehensible.

Talk about schism? Keep this up and you'll get one.

Hlocaust denial is not the only example of his bigotry. Or insanity. Here are a few samples from his weekly blog. He speaks of Jews:

". . .the Jews were responsible for the crucifying of Our Lord Jesus Christ"

". . . Communism . . . was largely their development"

He speaks of immigrants:

"The kingdoms of the West are being taken from the natives and given to peoples that at least have babies (cf. Mt. XXI, 43). But without Jesus Christ as the uniting corner-stone (Eph. II,20), it means --- blood in the streets."

He speaks of women:

"Here is the key to woman´s nature as woman: she is designed to be mother. Do we not observe, and does not St. Thomas Aquinas suggest, that in everything involved in motherhood – which is no less than the future of the human race - she is man´s superior, whereas in everything else she is his inferior?"

He offers us his 9/11 inside job conspiracy theory:

"That is why it makes complete sense that 9/11 was organised to make possible (amongst other things) the invasion of countries where military bases could be built amongst and all around the present most important sources of world oil."

Wraps up another conspiracy theory:

"There is much evidence that both collapse and war have long been planned by enemies of God to give them control of the entire world."

Not to put too fine a point on it; Williamson is a fruitcake. He's a nut. He doesn't have an odd belief; he has a diagnosable mental disorder.

Talk about incompetent vetting. I don't know where to begin.

So for heaven's sake let's skip the discussion on whether it's too late for him to recant. You can't recant a mental disorder. He doesn't need spiritual correction; he needs professional help, and a lot of it.

just because the fool does not deny the holocaust does not mean everything he said is wrong.
the jews were responsible for having jesus crucified. that is just history.
the jews were involved, very deeply, in the communist revolution in russia and supporting the communist party around the world. it wasn't just the jews, but they, like many leftists today, think that communism is the way to go. it has never worked, but on paper, "from each according to his ability and to each according to his need" appears to be a good idea. then there was the communist anti war stance - a bayonnet is an instrument of death with a worker at both ends. kool slogans, but in practice the ussr was not peaceful and communism, and socialism, on any real scale, does not work.

so quoting thomas aquinas is now wrong. women are the future of the himan race. see how far we get without them. but old thomas was wrong about the last part - he was not married. in fact women control everything.

well lots of leftists say the right caused the war for the very same reason he suggested. they are all nuts.

as for williamson, i think he was right in his analysis.

but when all is said and done, he is also a fool for doubting the terror of ww2, the holocaust which took 7 million jews, 12% of the total population of the ussr, and the attempt to do to slavs, and other minorities, the nazi scum was doing with greater success with the jews.

Roman clerics used to say that the earth was flat.

Now a Roman cleric says the Holocaust never happened.

What's the fuss about? It's business as usual.

The Pope, who should have known better than to reinstate this mentally deficient throwback, has done irreparable harm to his credibility. Infallible, indeed!

"I believe ..", the two most dangerous word in human language.

I have had a relation with a 450 year old faith tradition for over 75 years. I am also a ScD scientist (retired).

I accept that when the evidence overwhelmingly supports a position, it would be perverse of me to withhold my provisional assent. To say that "I believe that there was no Holocaust" requires one to be totally disconnected from reality.

My problem with many religions is the wall they put up between them and the real world through the impregnable argument that they have "faith" that trumps reality. Their ego and lack of humility defies understanding. (their = pope, mullahs, evangelical pastors, .....)

Then there is the internal moral compass - good grief, that depends on your childhood culture - then there are those who need spiritual hearing aids (Dick Chaney, David Addington and Don Rumsfeld - the axis of evil).

The Holocaust memorial day is said be meant for all of us to never to forget the extermination and prevent its repetition. But we are reminded every day through the Jewish extermination of the Palestinians in the Holy land. Can not anyone stop this atrocity.

Timeline of EuroChristian anti-Jewish Racism

1939 Anti-Jewish laws introduced in the Protectorate (Czechoslovakia).
1939 Outbreak of World War 11 (Sept. 1, 1939), Poland overrun by German army: pogroms in Poland; beginning of the Holocaust.
1940 Nazi Germany introduces gassing.
1940 Formation of ghettos in Poland: mass shootings of Jews: Auschwitz camp, later an extermination camp, established; Western European Jews under Nazis. Belzec extermination camp established.
1940 Algerian administration applies social laws of Vichy.
1941 Germany invades Russia and the Baltic states. Majdanek extermination camp established. Chelmno and Treblinka extermination camps established. Anti-Jewish laws in Slovakia. Pogroms in Jassy, Rumania. Pogroms and massacres by the Einsatzgruppen and native population in Baltic states and the part of Russia occupied by Germany. Expulsions of Jews from the German Reich to Poland. Beginning of deportation and murder of Jews in France.
1941 Severe riots against Jews in Iraq in consequence of Rashid Ali al-Jilani's coup d'יtat. Nazi Germany introduces gassing in extermination camps.
1942 Conference in Wannsee, Berlin, to carry out the "Final Solution" (Jan. 20, 1942). Beginning of mass transports of Jews of Belgium and Holland to Auschwitz. Massacres 'In occupied Russia continue. Death camps of Auschwitz, Majdanek and Treblinka begin to function at full capacity: transports from ghettos to death camps. Sobibor extermination camp established.
1943 Germany declared Judenrein. Transports of Jews from all over Europe to death camps. Final liquidation of the Warsaw ghetto (May 16, 1943). Annihilation of most of the ghettos. Transport of Italian Jews to death camps.
1944 Extermination of Hungarian Jewry.
1945 Germany surrenders (May 8, 1945) estimated Jewish victims in the Holocaust 5,820,960.
1946 Pogroms at Kielce, Poland, 42 Jews murdered and many wounded (July 4, 1946).
1948 Jewish culture in U.S.S.R. suppressed and Jewish intellectuals shot.
1948 Pogroms in Libya.
1952 Prague Trials (Slonsk‎): Murder of Yiddish intellectuals in Russia and many Jews disappear or sent to work camps.
1953 Accusation of "Doctors' plot" in the U.S.S.R., cancelled with Stalin's death.
1954=6 Jews of Egypt expelled.
1961 Mustapha Tlass, Defense Minister of Syria, publishes a history of the Damascus blood libel which claims that Jews actually do murder Christian children.
1967 Arabic version of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion published in Egypt.
1968 Fresh wave of anti-Semitism in Poland; emigration of most of the remaining Jews of Poland.
1969 Jews executed in Iraq.
1970 Leningrad, and other trials of Soviet Jews, who agitate for right to emigrate.
2005 Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, President of Iran, claims that the Holocaust was a myth or exaggerated, vows to achieve a "world without Zionism and Israel."

Continued...

EuroChristian Timeline of Anti-Jewish Racism

1917-21 Pogroms in the Ukraine and Poland. 1) Pogroms by retreating Red Army from the Ukraine (spring, 1918), before the German army. 2) Pogroms by the retreating Ukraine army under the command of Simon Petlyura, resulting in the deaths of over 8,000Jews. 3)Pogroms by the counter revolutionary "White Army" under the command of General A.I. Denikin (fall, 1919) in which about 1,500 Jews were killed. 4) Pogroms by the "White Army" in Siberia and Mongolia (1919). 5) Pogroms by anti-Soviet bands in the Ukraine (1920-21), in which thousands of Jews were killed.
1919 Abolition of community organization and non-Communist Jewish institutions in Soviet Russia.
1919 Pogroms in Hungary: c. 3,000 Jews killed.
1920 Adolf Hitler becomes Fuehrer, of the National-Sozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei (NSDAP), (NAZIs)
1920 Henry Ford I begins a series of anti-Semitic articles based on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, in his Dearbon Independent.
1924 Economic restrictions on Jews in Poland.
1925-27 Adolf Hitier's Mein Kampf appears.
1933 Adolf Hitler appointed chancellor of Germany. Anti-Jewish economic boycott: first concentration camps (Dachau, Oranienburg, Esterwegen and Sachsenburg).
1935 Nuremberg Laws introduced.
1937 Anti-Semitic legislation in Rumania.
1937 Discrimination against Jews in Polish universities.
1938 After Anschluss, pogroms in Vienna, anti-Jewish legislation introduced: deportations to camps in Austria and Germany.
1938 Charles E. Coughlin, Roman Catholic priest, starts anti-Semitic weekly radio broadcasts in U.S.
1938 Kristallnacht, Nazi anti-Jewish outrage in Germany and Austria (Nov. 9-10, 1938): Jewish businesses attacked, synagogues burnt, Jews sent to concentration camps.
1938 Racial legislation introduced in Italy (Nov. 17, 1938). Anti Jewish economic legislation in Hungary

Timeline of Antisemitism continued

1805 Massacre of Jews in Algeria.
1819 A series of anti-Jewish riots in Germany that spread to several neighboring countries (Denmark, Poland, Latvia and Bohemia) known as Hep! Hep! Riots, from the derogatory rallying cry against the Jews in Germany. (HEP = 'Hierosolymos Est Perdita' - Jerusalem is lost, apparently first used in the Middle Ages in riots associated with the crusades.)
1827 Compulsory military service for the Jews of Russia: Jewish minors under 18 years of age, known as "Cantonists," placed in preparatory military training establishments.
1835 Oppressive constitution for the Jews i
1840 Blood libel in Damascus (The Damascus Affair).
1853 Blood libel in Saratov (Russia), bringing a renewal of the blood libel throughout Russia.
1858 Abduction of a 7-year-old Jewish child, Edgard Mortara, in Bologna by Catholic conversionists (Mortara Case), an episode which aroused universal indignation in liberal circles.
1878 Adolf Stoecker, German anti-Semitic preacher and politician, founds the Social Workers' Party, which marks the beginning of the political anti-Semitic movement in Germany.
1879 Heinrich von Treitschke, German historian and politician, justifies the anti-Semitic campaigns in Germany, bringing anti-Semitism into learned circles.
1879 Wilhelm Marr, German agitator, coins the term anti-Semitism.
1881-84 Pogroms sweep southern Russia, beginning of mass Jewish emigration.
1882 Blood libel in Tiszaeszlar, Hungary, which aroused public opinion throughout Europe.
1882 First International Anti-Jewish Congress convened at Dresden, Germany.
1882 A series of "temporary laws" confirmed by Czar Alexander III of Russia in May, 1882 ("May Laws"), which adopted a systematic policy of discrimination, with the object of removing the Jews from their economic and public positions.
1885 Expulsion of about 10,000 Russian Jews, refugees of 1881-1884 pogroms, from Germany.
1891 Blood libel in Xanten, Germany.
1891 Expulsion from Moscow, Russia.
1893 Karl Lueger establishes in Vienna the anti-Semitic Christian Social Party and becomes mayor in 1897.
1894 Alfred Dreyfus trial in Paris.
1895 Alexander C. Cuza organizes the Alliance Anti-semitique Universelle in Bucharest, Rumania.
1899 Houston Stewart Chamberlain, racist and anti-Semitic author, publishes his Die Grundlagen des 19 Jahrhunderts which became a basis of National-Socialist ideology.
1899 Blood libel in Bohemia (the Hilsner case).
1903 Pogrom at Kishinev, Russia.
1905 Pogroms n the Ukraine and Bessarabia, perpetuated in 64 towns (most serious in Odessa with over 300 dead and thousands wounded).
1905 First Russian public edition of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion appears.
1906 Pogroms In Bialystok and Siedlce, Russia.
1909-10 Polish boycott against Jews.
1911-13 Menahem Mendel Beilis, blood libel trial at Kiev.
1912 Pogroms in Fez (Morocco).
1915 Ku Klux Klan, rascist organization in the U.S., refounded.

Timeline Anti-Jewish Racism continued

1474 Marranos of Segovia, Spain, massacred.
1480 Inquisition established in Spain.
1483 Torquemada appointed inquisitor general of Spanish Inquisition. Expulsion of Jews from Warsaw.
1490-91 Blood libel in La Guardia, town in Spain, where the alleged victim (Christopher of Toledo) became revered as a saint.
1492 Expulsion from Spain.
1492-93 Expulsion from Sicily.
1495 Expulsion from Lithuania.
1496-97 Expulsion from Portugal: mass forced conversion.
1506 Massacre of Marranos in Lisbon.
1510 Expulsion of Jews from Brandenburg (Germany).
1516 Venice initiates the ghetto, the first in Christian Europe.
1531 Inquisition established in Portugal.
1535 Jews of Tunisia expelled and massacred.
1541 Expulsion from the kingdom of Naples. Expulsion from Prague and crown cities.
1544 Martin Luther, German religious reformer, attacks the Jews with extreme virulence.
1550 Expulsion from Genoa (Italy).
1551 Expulsion from Bavaria.
1553 Burning of the Talmud in Rome.
1554 Censorship of Hebrew books introduced in Italy.
1556 Burning of Marranos at Ancona, Italy.
1567 Expulsion from the republic of Genoa (Italy).
1569, 1593 Expulsion from the Papal States (Italy).
1614 Vincent Fettmilch, anti-Jewish guild leader in Frankfort, Germany, and his followers attack the Jews of Frankfort and forces them to leave the City.
1624 Ghetto established at Ferrara (Italy).
1648-49 Massacres initiated by Bogdan Chmielnicki, leader of the Cossacks, and peasant uprising against Polish rule in the Ukraine, in which 100,000 Jews were killed and 300 communities destroyed.
1650 Jews of Tunisia confined to special quarters (Hדra).
1655-56 Massacres of Jews during the wars of Poland against Sweden and Russia.
1670 Expulsion from Vienna: Blood libel at Metz (France).
1711 Johann Andreas Eisenmenger r"tes his Entdecktes Judenthum ("Judaism Unmasked"), a work denouncing Judaism and whlch had a formative influence on modern anti-Semitic polemics.
1712 Blood libel in Sandomierz (Poland) after which the Jews of the'town were expelled.
1715 Pope Pius VI issues a severe "Edict concerning the Jews," in which he renews all former restrictions against them.
1734-36 Haidamacks, paramilitary bands in Polish Ukraine, attack Jews.
1745 Expulsion from Prague.
1768 Haidamacks massacre the Jews of Uman (Poland) together with the Jews from other places who had sought refuge there.
1788 Haidamacks massacre the Jews of Uman (Poland): 20,000 Jews and Poles killed.
1790-92 Destruction of most of the Jewish communities of Morocco.
1791 Pale of Settlements-twenty-five provinces of Czarist Russia established, where Jews permitted permanent residence: Jews forbidden to settle elsewhere in Russia.

Timeline of Antisemitism

1411-12 Oppressive legislation against Jews in Spain as an outcome of the preaching of the Dominican friar Vicente Ferrer.

1413-14 Disputation of Tortosa (Spain). The most important and longest of the Christian-Jewish disputations the consequence of which was mass conversions and intensified persecutions.
1421 Persecutions of Jews in Vienna and its environs, confiscation of their possessions, and conversion of Jewish children, 270 Jews burnt at stake, known as the Wiener Gesera (Vienna Edict). Expulsion of Jews from Austria.
1435 Massacre and conversion of the Jews of Majorca.
1438 Establishment of mellahs (ghettos) in Morocco.
1452-3 John of Capistrano, Italian Franciscan friar, incites persecutions and expulsions of Jews from cities in Germany.
1473 Marranos (Marranos are converted Jews who supposedly maintained their Judaism in secret - the word is a disparaging term) of Valladolid and Cordoba, in Spain massacred.

Timeline of Antisemitism

1298-99 Massacre of thousands of Jews in 146 localities in southern and central Germany led by the German knight Rindfleisch.
1306 Expulsion of Jews from France.
1306-20 Pastoureaux ("Shepherds"), participants of the second Crusade in France against the Muslims in Spain, attack the Jews of 120 localities in southwest France.
1321 Persecutions against Jews in central France in consequence of a false charge of their supposed collusion with the lepers.
1321-22 Expulsion from the kingdom of France.
1336-39 Persecutions against Jews in Franconia and Alsace led by lawless German bands, the Armleder.
1348-50 Black Death Massacres which spread throughout Spain, France, Germany and Austria, as a result of accusations that the Jews had caused the death of Christians by poisoning the wells and other water sources.
1389 Massacre of the Prague (Bohemia) community.
1391 Wave of massacres and conversions in Spain and Balearic Islands.
1394 Expulsion from the kingdom of France.
1399 Blood libel in Poznan.

Timeline of Antisemitism

1096-99 First Crusade. Crusaders massacre the Jews of the Rhineland (1096).
1144 Blood libel at Norwich (England); first record, blood libel - Martyrdom of St. William of Norwich related in the Anglo-Saxon chronicle.
1146 Anti-Jewish riots in Rhineland by the Crusaders of the second Crusade.
1147 Beginning of the brutal persecution of the Jews of North Africa under the Almohads, lasted until 1212.
1182 King Philip Augustus of France decrees the expulsion of the Jews from his kingdom and the confiscation of their real estate.
1190 Anti-Jewish riots in England: massacre at York, and other cities.
1215 Fourth Lateran Council introduces the Jewish Badge.
1235 Blood libel at Fulda, Germany.
1236 Severe anti-Jewish persecutions in western France.
1240 Disputation of Paris which led to the burning of the Talmud.
1242 Burning of the Talmud at Paris.
1255 Blood libel at Lincoln, England.
1263 Disputation of Barcelona.
1290 Expulsion of the Jews from England, the first of the great general expulsions of the Middle Ages.

Timeline of antisemitism

200 Tertullian, Church Father, writes his anti-Jewish polemic in Latin Adversus Judaeos.
325 After the ecumenical council, Nicaea, the Christian Church formualtes its policy toward the Jews: the Jews must continue to exist for the sake of Christianity in seclusion and humiliation.
386-387 John Chrysostom, Church Father in the East, violently anti-Jewish, delivers eight sermons in Antioch.
438 Theodosius II, Roman emperor of the East, legalizes the civil inferiority of the Jews.
468 Persecutions of the Jews in Persia (Babylonia).
c. 470 Jews persecuted in Persia (Babylonia) by Firuz, the exilarch, and many Jews killed and their children given to Mazdeans.
535-553 Emperor Justinian I issues his novellae to Corpus Juris Civilis expressing his anti-Jewish policy.
612 Visigothic king Sisebut of Spain inaugurates a policy of forcible conversion of all Jews in the kingdom.
624-628 Jewish tribes of Hejaz (Arabia) destroyed by Muhammad.
628 Dagobert I expels Jews from Frankish kingdom.
632 Heraclius, Byzantine emperor, decrees forced baptism of all Jews in the Byzantine empire.
632 Official Church doctrine on conversion of Jews in Spain formulated.
638 Visigothic king Chintila compels the sixth council of Toledo to adopt resolution proclaiming that only Catholics may reside in the kingdom of Spain.
694-711 All Jews under Visigothic rule in Spain declared slaves, their possessions confiscated and the Jewish religion outlawed.
717-20 Caliph Omar II introduces series of discriminatory regulations against the dhimmi, the protected Christians and Jews, among them the wearing of a special garb.
1009-13 Fatimid caliph Al-Hakim in Eretz Israel issues severe restrictions against Jews.
1012 Emperor Henry II of Germany expels Jews from Mainz, the beginning of persecutions against Jews in Germany.

The six posts that follow are a skeletal outline of the last two thousand years of antiJewish racism.
A more thorough presentation would require, perhaps, three times the number.

Jarna22,

I'm sorry to say every minority in history has been discriminiated against. Even today there are only 14 million people of the Jewish faith ont this planet. That makes Jews an insignificant minority.

While the holocaust was despicable whining about discrimination against a small mainority is just plain infintile. Get a life or expand your membership.

blund Author Profile Page:

Jarna22,

I'm sorry to say every minority in history has been discriminiated against. Even today there are only 14 million people of the Jewish faith ont this planet. That makes Jews an insignificant minority.

While the holocaust was despicable whining about discrimination against a small mainority is just plain infintile. Get a life or expand your membership.
_____________________

I'm not sure whom you're writing to, but what they hey. The number should be more....

Take your life elsewhere.

blund:

One other thing: Nag your mommie, not us.

All Holocausts/Massacres/Atrocities should be remembered not just one.

To wit: The Top 20 from http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm

Rank Death Toll Cause Centuries
1 55 million Second World War 20C
2 40 million Mao Zedong (mostly famine) 20C
3 40 million Mongol Conquests 13C
4 36 million An Lushan Revolt 8C
5 25 million Fall of the Ming Dynasty 17C
6 20 million Taiping Rebellion 19C
7 20 million Annihilation of the American Indians 15C-19C
8 20 million Iosif Stalin 20C
9 19 million Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C
10 18 million Atlantic Slave Trade 15C-19C
11 17 million Timur Lenk 14C-15C
12 17 million British India (mostly famine) 19C
13 15 million First World War 20C
14 9 million Russian Civil War 20C
15 8 million Fall of Rome 3C-5C
16 8 million Congo Free State 19C-20C
17 7 million Thirty Years War 17C
18 5 million Russia's Time of Troubles 16C-17C
19 4 million Napoleonic Wars 19C
20 3 million Chinese Civil War 20C
20 3 million French Wars of Religion 16C

CCNL:

"All Holocausts/Massacres/Atrocities should be remembered not just one."
_____________________________________
To the best of our knowledge the Vatican has only Holocaust deniers on board, of whom Williamson is one.

Are you saying that there are other genocides that Catholic Bishops are denying?
_________________

Are you saying they are denying the two thousand years they've singled Jews out for persecution?

Clarify please. Give names of other priests, bishops, nuns, et al, and what they are denying.
_

The Vatican and other religious governing bodies should remember and observe with prayer all Holocausts/Massacres/Atrocities not just one.

The Holocaust memorial day is said be meant for all of us to never to forget the extermination and prevent its repetition. But we are reminded every day through the repetitive Jewish extermination of the Palestinians in the Holy land. For Gods sake can nobody put a stop to this genocide?

The pope is a hypocrite and a creep:he never recanted himself when he spouted hos venom agianst 1.6 billion Muslims under the guise of academia noting that Muslims rvere Jesus and his holy mother;

yet the pope is quick to demand that the courageous Bishop recant!!!!and considering that the catholic church doctrine teachs that the jews had the blood of jesus on theur hands!!!!!!

Why don't the pope say a single word of condemnation on the Holocaust of the Palestinian People by the jews for the past sixty years?

How about the recent Holocaust of the Palestinians in Gaza:400 infants and children murdred by the "victimized jews"with bullet holes into their little hearts,over 200 women murdered-their mothers- and over 100 elderly men and the rest of some thousand Palestinians murderd or maimed are essentially civilians.

No but no:you jews the pope and the jews are silent, absloutely silent on war crimes and crimes against humanity committed by jews in occupied Palestine. Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?????

Well because jews are powerful and jewish life is sacered-after all jews the "chosen people" while the dispossessed and downtrodden Palestinians are the wrteched of the earth.

the pope should be ashamed of himself for his silence on the horrendous crimes committed by jews in Palestine;not even the nazis had the heart to bomb 24/7 for 22 days from land,sea and air, a concentration camp-as Gaza is after it was starved for 18 months.

Let the jews no longer play the victim and the guilt trip on us-we are just sick and tired of the holocaust/anti-semitism industry which are used to distract from jewish war crimes in PAlestine.Enough is Enough.

let us focus on the victimized Palestinians and not on their jewish tormentors.

TO WHOMEVER IT MAY CONCERN:

There is a world of difference between child-like and childish, just glancing at a few of the posts on this site definitely brings this to mind.

A few simple statements:

God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.

God is not the ego-maniac that some think God is and that some seem to want God to be.

We will all be judged and it seems that quite a few have already been judged by quite a few others, whether anyone believes it or not, Jesus was speaking the Truth when He said, "All Power and Authority has been given unto Me".

Thank God that Divine Justice and Divine Mercy go hand in hand, since by the sounds of so much on here, it seems that everybody has been condemned at least once by someone else on here, does anyone look at themself and the wrong that they have done?

Jesus said something interesting, "The measure that you judge with, will be the measure that you are judged with", something to think about, whether or not you believe that Jesus is God-Incarnate, which He Is, or if you believe that God Is Real and God Is.

Different people post different lists of the atrocities that man has committed against his fellow man, should this point out something to people? Could at least one of these be that man uses all kinds of "reasons" to justify his unniceness, shall we say.

I thank God that God has a Plan and even tho it seems that there might be many that will be kicking and screaming, so to speak, to keep "the other" out of God's Kingdom, God's Plan is for ALL OF US to be in His Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth, and His Plan is unfolding before our very eyes and will come to Fruition.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

ASIZ, TURKISH MUSLIM,

STOP KILLING KURDS

STOP TORTURING CYPRIOTS

WE REMEMBER THE ARMENIANS. ADMIT THE ARMIAN GEONOCIDE ARMIT THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE ADMIT THE ARMENAIN GENOCIDE, ADMIT THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE

ADMIT THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE. ADMIT THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE.

CCNL:

You did not answer the question. You have posted the same list repeatedly, one that at least on face value has nothing to do with the question of Williamson. There are other Holocaust denying bishops and priests in the Vatican as you know, and I'll return to them if you'd like.

As well, a couple of thousand Catholic clerics were perpetrators. Churches used slave labor. The Vatican stole from Jews, Orthodox Christians, and Roma.

The Vatican continues to deny public access to much of its Holocaust archives.
______________________________
There is no question that not only the Vatican, but all institutionalized religions, all people, should be conscious of, pray for, if they're observant, commemorate those who died violently, those being geonocided right now in Darfur, Iraq, Aghanistan, etc.

But that was not the question posed to us. Please answer the question.
---------------------------------
CCNL:

"All Holocausts/Massacres/Atrocities should be remembered not just one."
_____________________________________
To the best of our knowledge the Vatican has only Holocaust deniers on board, of whom Williamson is one.

Are you saying that there are other genocides that Catholic Bishops are denying?
_________________

Are you saying they are denying the two thousand years they've singled Jews out for persecution?

Clarify please. Give names of other priests, bishops, nuns, et al, and what they are denying.

This Bishop may have apologized to the Pope for his ignorance but never recanted as ordered.

"If I find this proof, then I will correct myself," he said. "But that will require some time."

Will Benedict now look the other way as he has done with Cardinals Mahoney and Rivera hiding pedophile priests or will he insist Bishop Williamson obey his command. My bet is Benedict will ignore the issue hoping it goes away but by the protests of German Bishops now over Williamson, I doubt that it will. Christ's Church indeed.

Farnaz, Farnaz, Farnaz,

Again, The Vatican and other religious governing bodies should remember and observe with prayer all Holocausts/Massacres/Atrocities not just one.

All religious governing bodies includes the heads of the various Jewish cults since they apparently are unaware of the massive atrocities committed against other religions and races putting them in the same classification of the very strange Bishop Williamson.

Again, The Vatican and other religious governing bodies should remember and observe with prayer all Holocausts/Massacres/Atrocities not just one.

All religious governing bodies includes the heads of the various Jewish cults since they apparently are unaware of the massive atrocities committed against other religions and races putting them in the same classification of the very strange Bishop Williamson.
-------------------------------------
You are a filthy liar, and what is much, much worse, you know it. Elie Wiesel personally went to Kosovo when it was under siege by your fellow Christians so that he could comfort the Kosovo Muslims whom your fellow Christians were genociding.

Simon Wiesenthal worked tirelessly to get justice for the Roma and Sinti whom your brother Catholic Adolf Hitler genocided (Pajaramos).

Again and again, victims of your Cathlolic brothers and sisters who murdered during the Holocaust have struggled to stop your fellow blood letters, you filthy thing.

They have did everything humanly possible. Sent shiploads of food to Biafra. Petitioned, demonstrated for Rwanda, Somalia, Darfur, Cambodia, the former Yugoslavia, Congo, etc.

You disgust me.

That last email was meant for ccnl. More to come, many.

A compadre of Williamson and CCNL, Bishop of Motherwell, Joseph Devine.

From Times Online
March 13, 2008
Bishop accuses gays of 'conspiracy' against the Catholic Church
Joanna Sugden

A Catholic bishop has accused the gay community of leading a “conspiracy” against Christianity by allying itself with Holocaust survivors.

The Bishop of Motherwell, Joseph Devine, says a “homosexual lobby” has aligned itself with minority groups, including Holocaust survivors, to gain persecuted status.

Part II

Anti-Defamation League)." In fact, the Slaves say that Jews will be the first people to accept the Antichrist and will quickly join "in launching the most savage persecution of the Church in the history of the world." This kind of ugly rhetoric earned the Slaves a sharp rebuke in 2004 from Bishop John B. McCormack of Manchester, N.H., who called their teachings "blatantly anti-Semitic" and "offensive to all people of good will." That didn't stop the Slaves' Brother Anthony Mary, while lecturing at the 2005 St. Joseph Forum's conference, from describing the "Jewish nation" as "the perpetual enemy of Christ" and saying that the Virgin Mary had threatened the Jews with "blood and terror if it's required." The Slaves, who also inveigh against "feminists, sodomites, and those who advocate the sin of birth control," hold annual conferences that feature prominent radical traditionalist Catholics from around the country. Last August, speakers included John Sharpe and Father Nicholas Gruner.

February 2, 2009 9:03 PM | Report Offensive Comment

From the Southern Poverty Law Center: More antisemitic Priests

Intelligence Report
Winter 2006

The Dirty Dozen

Key members of the Slaves of the Immaculate GHeart of Mary include (from left) brothers Louis Marie, André Marie, Fancis (the Slave superior), Maximilian Maria and Anthony Mary. In 2005, the Slaves' Brother Anthony Mary, M.I.C.M, Tert., warned a conference that
SLAVES OF THE IMMACULATE HEART OF MARY
Richmond, N.H.
At the end of a dirt road atop a wooded mountain in southwestern New Hampshire, the Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary own a complex of three main buildings, the basement of one of which is used as a church. Members of the larger Slaves community live in the surrounding country, sending their children to a school run by the organization. The Slaves are followers of the anti-Semitic priest Leonard Feeney, a "genius" who started the organization after he was excommunicated in 1953. The group began operations in Boston, but later moved to Still River, Mass., where it became known for such unusual practices as allowing one nun to remain married after taking her vows and raising children communally. After the founder's death in 1978, the organization broke up into several factions, with the most radical setting up shop in Richmond (the old Still River site is now known as St. Benedict Abbey, which is in full communion with the Vatican). Today, the Slaves continue to endorse Feeney and to defend him from charges of anti-Semitism, despite his well-documented hatred of the Jews. (One unsigned 1958 article in Feeney's rabid publication, The Point, summed up the situation like this: "Essential to the understanding of our chaotic times is the knowledge that the Jewish race constitutes a united anti-Christian bloc within Christian society, and is working for the overthrow of that society by every means at its disposal.") Like Feeney, the Slaves today see the Vatican II reforms as the product of Jewish pressures and argue that the "Jewish nation is at enmity with Our Lord's Plan." They have denounced the Vatican's moves to reconcile with Jews as "capitulation to the tyrannical demands of the most insidious elements within Jewry (e.g., the Vatican audiences granted to the pro-abortion, pro-homosexual, anti-Christ Jewish

30-01-2008 / Poland
Poland - Prosecutor to start investigation into priest controversial remarks

A Polish prosecutor will start an investigation into the controversial statements made last year by Father Tadeusz Rydzyk, the founder of Radio Maryja, a Catholic radio station known for its anti-Semitic broadcasts, press reports said.
The decision to start an investigation, decided by a court in Torun, is a response to a complaint by a Polish Jewish organization against the anti-Semitic statements that were made by, or attributed to the priest.
Father Rydzyk was quoted at a meeting with university students last summer as accusing Jews of greed in a government compensation deal on confiscated property.
He also reportedly denounced Poland's President Lech Kaczynski as a "fraudster who is in the pockets of the Jewish lobby."
The priest has denied making the inflammatory remarks but popular magazine Wprost claims to have a recording of Rydzyk’s statements.
Jewish group had called on Pope Benedict XVI to condemn the statements and to discipline Father Rydzyk and his broadcast outlet.

New Catholic Bishop Believes that Hurricane Katrina was Caused by LGBT People
Meet Fr. Gerhardt Maria Wagner, mentioned earlier on this thread:

by Michael A. Jones

Published February 02, 2009 @ 04:46AM PST

Has Pope Benedict XVI fallen off his rocker? First came news last week that he's "re-communicated" Bishop Richard Williamson, a conservative Catholic leader who has denied the Holocaust. Now comes news that he's named Father Gerhard Maria Wagner an Auxiliary Bishop in Austria. What has Fr. Wagner done to deserve this title?

According to the Times Online, he's blamed Hurricane Katrina on sexual perverts and gay people. Hmm...are beliefs like Williamson's and Wagner's the new standard for bishops these days? If so, that says something pretty tragic about the Catholic Church.

Fr. Wagner, in addition to his Hurricane Katrina comments, also believes that the Harry Potter books spread satanism.

For more than a decade, Jewish, Orthodox Christian, and Roma have been involved in a lawsuit against Vatican Bank, which thieved from Jews, Orthodox Christians, and Roma slaughtered by fifteen hundred Franciscan priests. You will find a significant amount of information at the link below.

The Vatican will not settle. Many people, including Orthodox Christians, Jews, Roma, are putting pressure on the Vatican to settle and account for its horrible crimes in this matter. The suit has been monitored all over the world. These Franciscan priests' crimes include cutting up with scissors living Jews, Orthodox Christians, and Roma.

http://www.vaticanbankclaims.com/news.html

Please contact the Vatican and ask them to act justly. More information on the Ustasha Franciscan crimes against humanity, including the names of every one of the fifteen hundred Franciscan murderers is available on the web.

Thomas "the Moses of the NT" Baum,

For your edification:

Gerd Lüdemann

Matt 28:16-20 The description of Jesus's appearance is minimal, as attention is focused on the content of Jesus' message to the Eleven. Lüdemann notes that "the historical yield is extremely meager." He accepts the early tradition that various disciples had visionary experiences, most probably located in Galilee, and that these experiences led to the founding of "a community which preached the resurrection and exaltation of Jesus as the Messiah and/or the Son of Man among their Jewish contemporaries." [Jesus, 255f.]

Matthew 7:2

Samuel T. Lachs

Lachs [Rabbinic Commentary on the New Testament, 136f] cites a number of rabbinic parallels to the principle that underlies this saying, including the following:

R. Simeon b. Abba said: "All the measures have ceased [presumably four modes of execution], yet the rule of measure for measure has not ceased." [Gen. R. 9:13]

Gerd Luedemann
Luedemann [Jesus, 150] concludes that this is not an authentic saying from jesus, although he notes that it represents sound Old Testament theology with God rewarding people according to their own actions.

Farnaz, Farnaz, Farnaz,

Apparently the JDL is paying you triple time this evening. Can't say they are getting their money's worth.

For more than a decade, Jewish, Orthodox Christian, and Roma have been involved in a lawsuit against Vatican Bank, which thieved from Jews, Orthodox Christians, and Roma slaughtered by fifteen hundred Franciscan priests. You will find a significant amount of information at the link below.

The Vatican will not settle. Many people, including Orthodox Christians, Jews, Roma, are putting pressure on the Vatican to settle and account for its horrible crimes in this matter. The suit has been monitored all over the world. These Franciscan priests' crimes include cutting up with scissors living Jews, Orthodox Christians, and Roma.

http://www.vaticanbankclaims.com/news.html

Please contact the Vatican and ask them to act justly. More information on the Ustasha Franciscan crimes against humanity, including the names of every one of the fifteen hundred Franciscan murderers is available on the web.

For more than a decade, Jewish, Orthodox Christian, and Roma have been involved in a lawsuit against Vatican Bank, which thieved from Jews, Orthodox Christians, and Roma slaughtered by fifteen hundred Franciscan priests. You will find a significant amount of information at the link below.

The Vatican will not settle. Many people, including Orthodox Christians, Jews, Roma, are putting pressure on the Vatican to settle and account for its horrible crimes in this matter. The suit has been monitored all over the world. These Franciscan priests' crimes include cutting up with scissors living Jews, Orthodox Christians, and Roma.

http://www.vaticanbankclaims.com/news.html

Please contact the Vatican and ask them to act justly. More information on the Ustasha Franciscan crimes against humanity, including the names of every one of the fifteen hundred Franciscan murderers is available on the web.

For an unbiased review about the reported Ustasa Gold in Vatican Bank see,

http://www.state.gov/www/regions/eur/rpt_9806_ng_ustasha.pdf

For more than a decade, Jewish, Orthodox Christian, and Roma have been involved in a lawsuit against Vatican Bank, which thieved from Jews, Orthodox Christians, and Roma slaughtered by fifteen hundred Franciscan priests. You will find a significant amount of information at the link below.

The Vatican will not settle. Many people, including Orthodox Christians, Jews, Roma, are putting pressure on the Vatican to settle and account for its horrible crimes in this matter. The suit has been monitored all over the world. These Franciscan priests' crimes include cutting up with scissors living Jews, Orthodox Christians, and Roma.

http://www.vaticanbankclaims.com/news.html

Please contact the Vatican and ask them to act justly. More information on the Ustasha Franciscan crimes against humanity, including the names of every one of the fifteen hundred Franciscan murderers is available on the web.

Title: Message
Pro-Nazi priests outed

By George Jahn
ASSOCIATED PRESS

VIENNA, Austria — Some Austrians were clearly not ready for Stefan Moritz's book about their country's pro-Nazi priests — bishops who hushed up the Holocaust and a prelate who helped thousands of Hitler's henchmen escape justice.
"A woman just screamed 'Heil Hitler,' and hung up," said Mr. Moritz. "Another caller asked me if I were a Jew, because only a Jew could write garbage like this."
Mr. Moritz, who isn't Jewish, has shaken up his country with a book claiming Austria's Roman Catholic Church ignored and even abetted Nazi horrors.
By publishing "Gruess Gott und Heil Hitler" ("Greet God and Hail Hitler"), Mr. Moritz, 36, is treading on sensitive ground. After all, close to 80 percent of Austrians are Roman Catholics.
Not all Austrian clergy were cowards or collaborators.
Mr. Moritz cites the case of the Rev. Franz Reinisch, banned from preaching because of his critical stance toward the Nazis. The church, instead of backing Father Reinisch, expelled him from his Pallotine order, and he was executed in 1942 after refusing to swear loyalty to Hitler and join his army, Mr. Moritz writes.
That's only one example in his argument that the Austrian church in general struck a bargain with the devil in order to survive, and that many priests and bishops went beyond silence to actively support the Nazis.
Dozens of documents — many from parish archives — include:
•A chillingly dispassionate entry dated Nov. 26, 1942, from the Austrian Bishops' Conference, that skims over the mass deportation of Jews to Nazi death camps by noting that over one year, "33 transports of 1,000 each have gone to Poland." By that time, some bishops were signing off with "Heil Hitler" on official letters and priests were authorized to display the swastika.
•Influential Jesuit Mario von Galli describing Jews as "God's murderers" who deserve persecution. In 1940, as Gypsies started joining the Jews on death trains packed to suffocation point, the Vienna archdiocese urged all parishes to do their utmost to "combat the Gypsy chaos" in the Austrian capital by reporting Gypsies to the police.
•The parish newspaper "Erdberger Pfarrblatt" urging Catholics to support Hitler by declaring "One people — one Reich — one Fuehrer — one God!"
•Rural priest Franz Mandl, in a lectern-thumping speech, calling Hitler "the greatest human being," one of dozens documented praising the Nazi dictator; and an internal church document blaming Jewish politicians and writers for the decline in pure-race Germanic births.
•A listing of pro-Hitler Austrian clergy staying in or promoted to leading positions after the war. It included Bishop Alois Hudal, who boasted of helping about 50,000 war crimes suspects to hide or escape. Among them was Franz Stangl, commander of Treblinka concentration camp in Poland where 800,000 Jews were killed. He was arrested in Brazil after two decades on the run with a false passport procured through Bishop Hudal.
After decades of denial, Austria has come a long way in acknowledging that Hitler, a native son, counted Austrians like Stangl among his most ruthless henchmen, and that he had more rabid supporters here than in Germany.
While latent anti-Semitism is still exploited by a few far-right politicians, government leaders now publicly condemn the country's Nazi past, and laws regulating restitution have paid out millions of dollars.
Austria's Gothic cathedrals and onion-domed village churches have resisted scrutiny, however.
Few cardinals and bishops have spoken forthrightly about the links of some of their predecessors to the Nazi regime. Revelations two years ago that slave laborers tilled church fields in Austria were only acknowledged after media reports could no longer be ignored.
In neighboring Germany, too, allegations persist that the Roman Catholic Church failed to speak out against the Nazi Holocaust and to properly acknowledge its silent complicity.
"A Moral Reckoning: The Role of the Catholic Church in the Holocaust and its Unfulfilled Duty of Repair," a new book by American historian Daniel Goldhagen, re-examines the case against the church and has been attacked by critics and church officials as lacking historical foundation.
It ran into more controversy last month when a German court ordered a picture caption blacked out in the German translation.
The court was acting on a complaint by the Munich diocese that the caption misidentified a church official at a Nazi event as Michael Faulhaber, then the cardinal of Munich.
Mr. Goldhagen claimed it was "a desperate attempt on the part of the church to try and torpedo this book and avoid a real discussion."
In fact, influential prelates in Germany now appear ready to deal with the past.
Cardinal Karl Lehmann of Mainz urged the Vatican earlier this year to open its Nazi-era archives for the first time.
No such calls have come from Austria's clergy, and those still alive with memories of the church's role more than half a century ago are either reluctant to talk or plead fading memory.
"Mayer, the principal of our school, he was an 'illegal one,'" said Hermine Reiterer, 83, using the term for the keenest Nazis, who joined Hitler's party in the early 1930s while it was still banned in Austria. "He was extremely active in our church."
Like the Vatican, Austria's Roman Catholic church spokesman, Erich Leitenberger, describes the clergy as a victim of the Nazis. But he acknowledges the existence of "misguided Catholics" in the church hierarchy, "who thought their prejudices were confirmed by National Socialism" — the Nazi ideology.

Continued....
An association of Slovakia's Jewish religious communities said Sokol "had failed to mention the fate of over 70,000 Slovak Jews who were deported by the Slovak government" to Nazi concentration camps, where most of them perished. Only about 4,000 Jews still live in Slovakia.
"Archbishop Jan Sokol offended Holocaust victims when he spoke positively" about the time Tiso was in power in Slovakia, said the Central Association of Jewish Religious Communities.
Slovakia's Council of Roma Communities also criticized Sokol's remarks. Many of Slovakia's Roma, or Gypsies, perished in Nazi camps. About 70 percent of the 5.4 million Slovaks are Roman Catholic, and Sokol's statement drew criticism from some of them, as well.
Sokol's office dismissed the criticism and said the archbishop "presented his personal views."

continued...

Most of Slovakia's Jews perished in concentration camps during World War II, an era when Slovakia served as a puppet state to Nazi-run Germany and was headed from 1939-1945 by Tiso, a Catholic monsignor. He was executed for treason by Czechoslovak authorities in 1947.

continued....
Archbishop Jan Sokol said in a TV interview Jan. 4 that Tiso's rule was a "time of well-being."
"I remember him from my childhood. We used to be very poor and under his rule, the situation greatly improved," the archbishop said on Bratislava's TA3 TV.

For an unbiased review about the reported Ustasa Gold in Vatican Bank see,

http://www.state.gov/www/regions/eur/rpt_9806_ng_ustasha.pdf

From Wikipedia:

"Founded by Rabbi Meir Kahane in New York City in 1968, JDL's self-described purpose was to protect Jews from harassment in Brooklyn, and to protest against local manifestations of antisemitism.[2][1]

"In its report, Terrorism 2000/2001, the FBI referred to the JDL as a "violent extremist Jewish organization" and stated that the FBI was responsible for thwarting at least one of its terrorist acts.[4]

The National Consortium for the Study of Terror and Responses to Terrorism states that, during the JDL's first two decades of activity, it was an "active terrorist organization;"[2] even so, the JDL was specifically referenced by the FBI's Executive Assistant Director Counterterrorism/Counterintelligence, John S. Pistole, in his formal report before the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks upon the United States.[2]

While the consortium writes that the JDL does not currently engage in terrorist actions, according to The Washington Post, both active and former JDL leaders currently serve as primary fundraisers for the outlawed Israeli terrorist group Kahane Chai.[5][6] Washington Report on Middle East Affairs has compiled a long list of mainstream sources it says show a thirty year history of JDL terrorism on U.S. soil, as well as its association with Kahane Chai.[7]"

Does this then make all Jews terrorists???

Note: Farnaz aka Observer12 aka Observer31 has not denied being a member of the JDL.

Farnaz2, I really, really appreciate your brave lonely persistence in attempting to alert head-in-sand Catholic appologists about Cardinal Montini's (Paul VI) grisly DELIBERATE funding of the CATHOLIC Nazi Croatian genocide of a MILLION Serb "heretics" in WWII. Montini should have been hung at Nuremburg. Sadly, no major U.S. media source will touch this story because Montini's Nazi ratline to the U.S. has taken over the GOP, America's biggest corporations, and our news media. I can't even get liberal media or feminist organizations interested in this MONSTROUS scandal. You yourself should also google Hidden from History on Catholic, Protestant, Canadian and CIA rape, forced abortions and infanticides to cover up priest molestations, torture, and extermination of 100,000 American, Canadian and Native American "orphans" in Canadian boarding schools and hospitals. Rev. Kevin Annett has been leading a lonely fight in Canada on that holocaust. The HERETIC NAZI Vatican opposes maternal life-saving birth control because its pedophiles NEED FRESH VICTIMS. Nobody with morals would be Catholic if they knew the cult's TRUE AGENDA. I posted this comment above yours on a related article.

CCNL, for the record I'm not a member of JDL but simply a SENSIBLE EX-Catholic.

clonedlamb,

Does that make you a "Crossanized" Catholic like many of us??

Atrocity/Holocaust of the Day to Be Remembered:

Annihilation of the Native Americans (South and North America- estimated at http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#America) to be about 20 million killed)

I've posted a fair amount on the anhilation of the AmerIndians, the Indians of the Carribean by the Catholics and Protestants.

MOre to come. I'm not sure if the Vatican is denying any involvement in this. That is the issue. Vatican denial--And truthfully, as far as I'm aware, it's involvement in that genocide, unalike the Shoah, was indirect.

BUT CCNL SEEMS TO THINK THE VATICAN DIRECTLY INVOLVED WITH THE GENOCIDE OF THE AMERIDIANS AND HE'S A TRADITIONAL CATHOLIC, MEMBER OF THE CALTHOOLIC LEAGUE.

I DEFER TO HIM.

Farnaz2, I really, really appreciate your brave lonely persistence in attempting to alert head-in-sand Catholic appologists about Cardinal Montini's (Paul VI) grisly DELIBERATE funding of the CATHOLIC Nazi Croatian genocide of a MILLION Serb "heretics" in WWII. Montini should have been hung at Nuremburg. Sadly, no major U.S. media source will touch this story because Montini's Nazi ratline to the U.S. has taken over the GOP, America's biggest corporations, and our news media. I can't even get liberal media or feminist organizations interested in this MONSTROUS scandal. You yourself should also google Hidden from History on Catholic, Protestant, Canadian and CIA rape, forced abortions and infanticides to cover up priest molestations, torture, and extermination of 100,000 American, Canadian and Native American "orphans" in Canadian boarding schools and hospitals. Rev. Kevin Annett has been leading a lonely fight in Canada on that holocaust. The HERETIC NAZI Vatican opposes maternal life-saving birth control because its pedophiles NEED FRESH VICTIMS. Nobody with morals would be Catholic if they knew the cult's TRUE AGENDA. I posted this comment above yours on a related article.
________________________
Thank you so much for your post. On Susan Jacoby's thread, I posted quite a bit about Canada's First Nations, its aboriginal peoples, millions of them, living under unthinkable circumstances, unimaginable. The last "boarding school" closed a couple of years ago, but the plight of these people is an abomination.

I also left the Church out of my posts. You've filled in some of my blanks.

The media is about profit. If it can't profit, if profit doesn't figure one way or another, we don't hear about it. The indigenous peoples don't have oil.

Thanks again. If you're interested, I've posted on Turkey and Cyprus on this blog, though not on this thread. More to come on that....

CLONED LAMB:

Another reply: CCCNL is a simple Catholic school boy, educated in parochial schools, which he took at face value. His understanding of Catholicism is that of a teen. He believes himself influenced by Dominic Crossan, an ex-priest some of whose scholarship is good, some poor. (An excellent prose stylist, though, IMHHO.)

Yet, for all his (CCNL's) protests (and he doth protest too much) against self-proclaimed traditional Catholics and Protestants, for all his protests when ANYONE ELSE starts posting about the AmerIndians etc., he is a simple self-deluded God-fearing Catholic, sounding more and more like a representative of the Catholic League every day.

Many Catholics, Protestants, now, Orthodox Catholic clergy have called for an end of anti-Jewish racism. THEY HAVE LOUDLY CALLED FOR THE VATICAN TO OPEN ITS NAZI HOLOCAUST period ARCHIVES.

CCNL claims his "sister cleaned up at Auschwitz." I guess she forgot to tell him what she found.

Regards,
Farnaz

http://www.vaticanbankclaims.com/news.html

NEWSLETTER TO CLAIMANTS

Fifth Amended Complaint filed on March 17, 2008

Current Status of Lawsuit

District Court dismisses defendant Vatican Bank on grounds of jurisdiction. Lawsuit still pending against defendant Franciscan Order, December 27, 2007

Report from Serbia & Italy, June 23 – July 5, 2007

June 15, 2006- Order of the Court

Case Management Conference Set for February 24, 2006

Court grants leave to file 4th Amended Complaint

US Supreme Court turns down Vatican Bank request to dismiss lawsuit

District Court orders Additional Deposition of Key Witness, former Army Intelligence Officer, December 13, 2005
District Court Orders Deposition of former Army Intelligence Officer Who Investigated Ante Pavelic and other Ustasha in Rome in 1947

Vatican Objections to Last Remaining Witness to Vatican Ratline Telling His Story Overruled
Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals Reinstates Lawsuit Against Vatican Bank and Franciscan Order

Read the Court Decision
ALPERIN VS. VATICAN BANK APPEAL TO BE HEARD OCTOBER 7, 2004 IN THE NINTH CIRCUIT COURT OF APPEALS

Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, Briefing Schedule

Details
JUNE 2003 DISTRICT COURT DISMISSES CASE

Details
JANUARY 2003 DISTRICT COURT ISSUES RULINGS

Judge grants Motion to Dismiss

Judge Addressed Default by Croatian Liberation Movement

JULY 2002 NEW PLEADINGS FILED IN FEDERAL COURT

Plaintiffs' Notice to Court Concerning Lawsuits Against the Vatican

Defendants' Response
Please Duplicate and Distribute

April 29, 2001 News for Immediate Release

NOTICE OF COURT HEARING

On May 25, 2001, the Honorable Judge Maxine Chesney will hold a hearing on the issue of "Political Question." The Vatican Bank and Franciscan Order have asked the court to dismiss the class action on grounds the court does not have jurisdiction over "political" matters. On behalf of plaintiffs we will be vigorously opposing the defendants’ motion.

All plaintiffs and potential class members as well as other interested parties are encouraged to attend this historic court hearing.

Hearing Date: May 25, 2001
Time: 9:00 a.m.
Place: United States District Court, Courtroom 5, 17th Floor, 450 Golden Gate Avenue, San Francisco, CA

EASTON & LEVY

NEWSLETTER TO CLAIMANTS

No.9 ~ August 1, 2000

Dear Friends:

We are pleased to announce several interesting development in the case as of August 1, 2000:

1. We are asking the court for permission to add the Swiss National Bank to the list of defendants. The Swiss National Bank accepted deposits of Ustasha loot during the Second World War but has never accounted for much of the gold and other stolen property. As you may know, the Swiss National Bank recently settled claims against it and other Swiss banks for 1.25 billion dollars, however that settlement did not address the Ustasha treasury.

2. The Franciscan Order has been quite aggressive in their denials of collaboration and participation in Ustasha atrocities. We have submitted additional details of the Franciscans complicity in genocide to the court.

3. The nature and ownership of the Vatican Bank remains a mystery, we have asked the court for an order requiring the Vatican Bank to supply us with this key information about itself.

4. We are pleased to announce that David Guyatt of London, England has been retained as our expert in international banking. David has twenty four years experience as an international banker and is now an author specializing in plundered WWII assets.

5. We welcome two new individual plaintiffs, Dr Daniel Pyevich of Hillsdale, IL (whose parents were born in Citluk, near Gospic, Lika, and who lost many relatives there in WW2) and Koviljka Popovic of Smederevo, Yugoslavia (daughter of Bozo Kolak, a farmer of the village of Tulje, Trebinje, murdered by the Ustashi), as well a new organization, The International Union of Former Juvenile Prisoners of Fascism which represents Nazi victims in the former Soviet Union including Ukraine, Russia, and Belarus.
Dear Friends:

The scope of the class action lawsuit against the Vatican Bank and other defendants is worldwide. Any person or organization that lost property or was a victim of the Ustasha regime in Croatia is eligible to participate, this includes heirs. Since the lawsuit process is at its very beginning, the Court has not yet decided if this matter may proceed. Therefore it will be important to demonstrate to the Court the worldwide class is both numerous and diverse, we need potential claimants to come from forward from all groups of victims in as many states and countries as possible. We especially need claimants from Yugoslavia and California.

We are STILL gathering the stories of WW2 Ustashi atrocities. We anticipate that the defendant Franciscan Order may deny its participation with the Ustasha regime despite the well documented historical evidence to the contrary, any stories or testimonies about the Franciscans or Catholic Church in Croatia during 1941 to 1945 would help our case. Indeed all stories are important because they demonstrate to the Judge the importance of our cause.

LAW OFFICES OF THOMAS DEWEY EASTON & JONATHAN LEVY

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ClonedLamb,

If you scroll down to this post February 8, 2009 5:37 AM, you'll find an article on Austria's nazi priests. I mean that literally. They were not Croation. What is occurring in the Church with the lawsuit, Williamson, Wagner, etc. is not new. It's very, very old.

We are dealing with entrenched racism of various sorts, homophobia, sexism, pedophilia, outright theft.

Indeed, CCNL, in one of his non Catholic League incarnations posted on a memo of Benedict demanding silence on pedophile priests.

Farnaz aka Observer12 aka Observer31,

That was my wife's US Army uncle who "cleaned-up" Auschwitz.

And my education includes a BS, MS and a PhD at secular schools.

And you still have not denied working for the JDL.

""And the Atrocity/Holocaust of the Day to Be Remembered:

Annihilation of the Native Americans (South and North America- estimated at http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#America) to be about 20 million killed). ""

And a member of the Catholic League?? Hardly with my following synopsis about the simple preacher man named Jesus:

Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology.

A short list of some of CCNL's (aka, "tom" aka bunbun) list of National Socialist Affiliations may be found at this cite. MOre to come.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Movement_(United_States)
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Farnaz aka Observer12 aka Observer31,

Your accusation that I am a Nazi is very offensive considering my sister's fiance' was killed at the Battle of the Bulge and my best friend's brother was killed at Pearl Harbor.

And still you have not denied working for the JDL.

CCNL has a story for every occasion. And he still hasn't denied being a member of the Catholic League!!!!! And he still hasn't denied having National Socialist affiliations!!!!!

"Tom," "BunBun," whatever, wouldn't convince anyone if he tried. His antisemitism, homophobia, sexism, racism, etc. speak for themselves.

Farnaz aka Observer12 aka Observer31 aka JDL member, et al,

Obviously based on my synopsis of the RCC as posted umpteen times on On Faith, I am not a member of the Catholic League.

And who in their right mind would be a Nazi or affiliated with these low life? Surely not I!!! Nazis are the scum of the earth ponds, rivers and oceans. They are the maggots of horror and despicable acts.

CCNL, aka Tom, aka BunBun,

I am not a member of JDL.

CCNL,

You sound Catholic League to me. Vaguely fascistic, if not nazistic, and that is on a good day.

Farnaz aka Observer12 aka Observer31,

Anyone who uses at least two aliases, calls herself an atheist Jew but defends, for some strange reason, this same religion is hardly in a position to be a critic.

Farnaz2, I appreciate your additional comments on Vatican history. I don't know what to make of CCNL. Sorry it took me so long to check back here.