Imams Asked to Preach Against Domestic Violence

If it is an honor killing, why is it so sneaky? If the person was killed to restore the family honor, then the murderer should be proud of what he has done and proud to confess his deed. And proud to suffer the consequences of his act, putting family honor above personal sufferings.

Instead, they sneak about and try to pretend it wasn't them. They lie. They dissemble. They try of "get off". They try to flee the country. In short, this type of murderer shows all the hallmarks of someone who is not a gentleman, and has no real honor of their own.

Someone with no honor should not indulge in honor killings.

We need to be careful let this incident drive religious bigotry.

Every religion contains a few bad apples who behead their wives.

The link to this article is titled "Domestic Violence or 'Honor Killing'?".

Newsflash: honor killings ARE domestic violence.

"They lie. They dissemble. They try of "get off". They try to flee the country. In short, this type of murderer shows all the hallmarks of someone who is not a gentleman, and has no real honor of their own...Someone with no honor should not indulge in honor killings."

As opposed to someone WITH honor "indulging" in honor killings?

The conclusion that "this type of murderer...is not a gentleman" is one of the most surreal observations I've ever seen in print.

Actually radical Muslims (who are US permanent residents, citizens or nationals) have become emboldened through Barak (Hussein) Obama's election to the office of the President of USA. They think that a US president who is black and has Muslim ancestry is a sign of silent empowerment for the religion of Islam. Perhaps they think and proclaim that if their radical version of Islam is allowed to be practiced here in the USA then that can be viewed by Al-Qaeda as an indirect endorsement of the Islamic orthodoxy (honor killing in this Buffalo beheading). Little do these radical Muslim murderers understand that such (false) sense of endorsement would catapault the conservative Republicans back to power who would go on an overdrive anti-Islam campaign, and expel Muslims or reduce any Muslim immigration to USA.

Is David Waters ignorant, stupid or both?
All across the USA people are killed by their spouses (not to mention parents, kids, friends, etc.). If there are only 50 suspected 'honor killings' than the problem might as well not exist at all. The fact is that sometimes people cannot cope with divorce and go nuts. It happens here in NC all the time. Blaming Islam is not only stupid, but it smacks of religious bigotry. Face it - the vast majority of murders committed in the USA are by Christians - where is Waters on that?

marcedwards, I think Mr Waters would agree with you, it seems to me he is trying to defuse another islam bashing incident

aussiebarry

DOH
I got stuck in the earlier part of the post and I didn't finish reading it as I should have.
You are right - Waters is putting water on the fire.
I was wrong, and shot my mouth off while being wrong.
*humble apology*

Until the koran is recognized as the worst book ever written and eliminated as the operating manual for one billion Muslims, such senseless conduct will be condoned by global Muslims as something dictated by Allah via a "pretty, wingie, talking, fictional thingie named Gabriel. One can only scream, " THE SIGNIFICANT STUPIDITY OF IT ALL"!!!!!!!!!!!

On Eboo Patel's blog on JANUARY 31, I WROTE THE FOLLOWING WORDS:

"Help Muslims reject violence for real. Just saying Islam is a religion of peace to other faiths will not work. For example, take concrete action like prohibiting the beheading of animals when celebrating Islamic festivals. This will lead to less beheading of humans (muslim and nonmuslim) in the Islamic world. Its not so hard if you are honest.
JANUARY 31, 2009 8:42 PM | REPORT OFFENSIVE COMMENTS"

My comments seem sadly prescient, but they are not. Any objective analysis of Islam shows that violence and Islam are intertwined and cannot be separated, unless you change the Koran. The Koran will never be changed by muslims, and violence will always be at the core of Islam.

BTW marcedward1 you wrote: "All across the USA people are killed by their spouses." Can you name even one beheading as brutal as this. Please. Please. Please. ENOUGH! Rationalizing Islamic violence and terrorism by blaming others is offensive to the victims.

I WROTE THE FOLLOWING ON EBOO PATEL'S BLOG ON FEBRUARY 5: (please read the 3rd paragraph)

"Eboo, Eboo, Eboo,

The issue you have chosen to write about is a very serious one. Many people around the world have given it a lot more thought than you have. The violence due to Islam is very real and painful for a lot of us.

Your approach to the problem of religious violence seems to be as an apologist for Islamic violence by calling it extremist or fringe. I know you want to believe that because of your identity confusion issues as an Indian muslim growing up in America.

Sadly, violence is at the heart of Islam. In almost all cultures today, children are taught to cherrish cute little lambs. In Islamic cultures, even children are taught to rejoice as lambs are ritualistically and religiously decapitated slowly, as their warm blood squirts everywhere, eyes full of terror, and voices squealing for their mothers.

Don't forget the Holy Quran and The Prophets's (Peace? be upon him) words coming directly from Allah.
For example, Koran chaper 9 verse 5:
"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and kill the nonbelievers wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem."

"Moderate muslims" are good people inspite of their religion. I suspect many do not even believe in the infallibility of the Quran. They are too afraid or too confused (Eboo) to simply let go and find something better. Instead, they talk about how its everyone else's fault for misunderstanding, misstating, prejudging, missinterpreting, mistaking Muslim actions and words. Words like "kill" mean kill, not peace.

Enough! Eboo. Enough warm and fuzzy statements. Enough deflections and obfuscations. Enough pretending that violence is not part of the core of Islam. You fool no one, but yourself.
You provide cover for some of your fellow muslims who have violence and hatred in their hearts, but they have you as their confused Indian apologist to provide cover. THIS is your crime.
FEBRUARY 5, 2009 1:09 AM | REPORT OFFENSIVE COMMENTS "

clearthinking, you might like to read David Plotz blog,

ACTUALLY ISLAM TELLS THEM not to beat their wives more than 10 strokes with a cane at any one time. wow - how forward thinking. but that cutting off the head thing - how does that work in islam? well that one is easy too. if she is trying to divorce him, does not wear traditional garb - and or - has a boyfirend - well that tarnishes the honor of the husband, and the family.
so under islam they are honor bound to kill her.
WAKE UP FOOLS!
a few sermons for PR purposes and you fawn all over islam. when they know that their words are not going to be heard or followed by islamics, and therefore, the beatings and killings continue.
so get over it people.
islam wants anyone not islamic DEAD! convert or be killed is IN their koran.
unlike christians and jews, there is no need to interpret such plain words.

These Imams and other Muslim leaders can "speak out" against domestic violence all they want: as long as the core texts of Islam, the Koran, Hadith and Sunnah remain unreformed as they are, they'll be used to justify violence against women. I, for one, am tired of the all apologists for Islam saying that "this has nothing to do with Islam". Your "sacred" texts are time and again used by devout Muslims to justify the oppression of, and violence against, women. One only need look at the countries where Islam holds sway. It's time for an honest reformation of Islam, or this "religion" will continue to be viewed with suspicion and distaste by Western secular society.

Domestic violence is domestic violence whether the guys wearing a wife-beater shirt or popin' his 'ho it's all the same.

there is no honor in beheading your wife.

He was probably angry, embarassed, and humiliated.

there will be no honor in prison for him.

Eddietheinfertile snaps: "I, for one, am tired of the all apologists for Islam saying that "this has nothing to do with Islam". Your "sacred" texts are time and again used by devout Muslims to justify the oppression of, and violence against, women."

----

Oh, you're so right! But would you answer a few questions for we here assembled? Here you go, Sparky:

# Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

# I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

# I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

# When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

# I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

# A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

# Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

# Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

# I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

# My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws?(Lev.20:14)

C'mon, Eddie, you're so tired of the apologists, why are you about to become one?? That's the real question I'd like answered.

But you'll never answer -- because you don't have an answer. You're just bloviating out your blowhole.

"News of the beheading of an American Muslim woman in a Buffalo suburb last week was immediately overshadowed by news of the plane that crashed near Buffalo..." Yep, that plane crash just took up all the space allotted for news about Buffalo New York - NOT! What a lame excuse! We grown-up adults know that Big Media wouldn't print the story because its negativity would be too-directly-and-automatically associated in any thinking person's mind with the words Muslim and Islam. And that automatic association would happen for a very good reason - it's logical, especially since the Koran (4:34) condones wife-beating.

There are, of course, such things as "honor killings," and they are a source of conflict between extemists and traditionalists of the parochial sort with progressive Muslims throughout the Middle East and Asia. They are also against the law in many of those nations. That said, those who support them do find justification for them in the Quoran, just as those Christians who harbor prejudice toward Jews find justification for their bigotry in the Greek Testament.

People, people! I doesnt matter WHY he did it and leave religion out of it. He has violated the law of the country in which he has citizenship. Just as we dont allow plural marriage, we dont allow murder, regardless of the reason. If he had wanted to follow the Koran that strictly, then maybe this wasnt the country for him to settle in.

Sad that his purpose of starting the TV station was to promote positive messages about Muslims. His personal actions have done tremendous damage to his religion, his gender, and his country (the US).

But how about Muslim women in 57 intolerant Islamic nations? Would Muslims speak out against such murder of a woman in Muslim country? Would they speak out against treatment of non-Muslims in Islamic nations? Do they really need 57 religious nations?

What is of course ironic in this case is that this Muslim suspect had a TV program trying to show Americans that the Muslims are tolerant and peaceful people. Yeah right, we read papers every day and see Muslims blowing up civlians every day.

Round up every non American born muzlum in this country and kick them OUT.

Give them the boot.

Show them the door.

And they can take their little terrorists with them.

But, GET OUT

It's domestic violence by a disturbed individual pure and simple. I was watching a piece on the family the other day and it mentioned that the man was not even very religious and certainly didn't make his wife wear a hijab. So where is the connection to Islam and honor killing? Once again the acts of a few individuals whose religion happens to be Islam are used by many to demonize an entire religion. It's getting quite old.

Good luck trying to sort "honor killings" from domestic violence. In the case at hand, beheading speaks of a Muslim tendency, but who knows for sure?

The real question is what kind of societies give a nod to honor killings or domestic violence and which make an effort to stop it and punish the miscreants?

It is the most conservative Muslim societies where these evils are condoned.

"Once again the acts of a few individuals whose religion happens to be Islam are used by many to demonize an entire religion. It's getting quite old."

Yeah, the great faith of over a billion people shouldn't have held against it that a few of its members have murdered their wives...
... or flew jetliners into skyscrapers...
... or blow themselves and passengers up on buses...
... or stone adulterers to death...
... or force un-scarved girls back into a burning building ...

Could have been anyone.

There is a study that shows that male domestic violence relates to an overactive competitive response to others in the context of intimate relationships. Evolutionary psychology may help review this situation as a guy with an over-active section of his medulla and remove religion from the evaluation. Domestic violence is NOT unique to any religion. And this doesn't excuse the crime. Or the irony over who committed it. Domestic violence is about control and power. It's not that far off from what we see on Animal Planet with competing bulls & other males.

We need to be careful let this incident drive religious bigotry.

Every religion contains a few bad apples who behead their wives.

Indeed!

Henry the VIII had six wives:
Divorced, beheaded, died; Divorced beheaded survived

"WmarkW wrote:
Yeah, the great faith of over a billion people shouldn't have held against it that a few of its members have murdered their wives...
... or flew jetliners into skyscrapers...
... or blow themselves and passengers up on buses...
... or stone adulterers to death...
... or force un-scarved girls back into a burning building ..."
------------------
You're right, Islam as the faith of billions of people isn't to blame for the actions of a tiny fraction of nutjobs who claim to be Muslim, but in fact are violating many of the basic tenets of Islam.

Just like Christianity as a religion isn't to blame for the deaths of
* African-Americans murdered by white supremacists (KKK, et al.),
* Jews murdered by anti-Semitic terrorists (Aryan Nations, et al.)
* abortion doctors murdered by pro-life terrorists (i.e. Army of God)
* gays killed by anti-homosexual terrorists (i.e. Christian Identity),
* occupants of the Murrah Building in OK City (Christian Patriots)

...not to mention the anti-Islamic terrorist organizations currently operating throughout southeast Asia.

Are you Christian? Do any of the groups mentioned above speak for you and your ideals?
If so, then you've got a whole host of issues we can't deal with here...but if not, then I suggest you stop throwing $h!t until you clean up the poo in your own backyard.

To JMGinPDX:

99% of the Christian world (rightly) considers the groups you cite to be the lunatic fringe. The groups I cited are governmental or closely allied.

Islam is evil. It cannot co-exist with Western values. It goes against everything the West stands for. This religion, if one could call it a relgion at all, is barbaric in every sense of the word. I would support the abolition of Islam in the United States. The country would be better off without these barbarians infecting our country. I would like to see the end of any Muslims entering the U.S. and the explusion of all that are already in the country.

Islam comes from a primitive arab nomadic Bedouin culture. Do any of the people apologizing for Islamic violence know much about the role of it in every day life?

Read, observe, and learn a little, and you will quickly lose your child-like idealism. Celebrations in Islam are performed with slow beheading of animals while chanting the Koran. Read about Bakri Eid. Read about Halal meat. Read about Daniel Pearl. THEN go on the internet and watch lambs, sheep, camels, Daniel Pearl being beheaded.

Domestic violence is universal, but beheading of your wife is NOT universal. Simply equating cutting the head of your wife and laying it next to her with other domestic violence is disingenuous at best. Silly statements like "overactive part of the medulla" by slazar show a lack of knowledge of neuroanatomy and Islam. It's healthier to admit and face a problem than try to live in denial.

Sometimes, the obvious is the obvious.

A husband beheading his wife is directly related to Islam. Those saying differently have been brainwashed by the media to accept political correctness at all costs.

The "husband" should be executed by the U.S. government. Beheading him would be a fitting end, but that would reduce us to the animal he is. However, it might teach any other Muslim men with similar ideas to forget them.

Because he did not assimiliate into our culture, we have to pay the cost of a trial, and if he is convicted, which I certainly hope he is, we will pay to feed, clothe and shelter him, provide him with medical, dental and eye care, creational care and any additional education.

End Islam in the United State now and forever. There is no place for Islam in a civilized society.

No religion should be allowed to impose the death penalty. If their god isn't capable of doing their own killing then they're not much of a god are they?

I believe that those in the media who are trying to brand this murder to malign Islam or Muslims in general have a hidden agenda.Yesterday a television network which claims to be "Fair and Balanced" highlighted this crime report in its no spin discussion . This killing should be dealt in the media in a fair manner like similar killings in the past in communitis accross the U.S. by memebers of any other religious belief . A crime has been commited and let the law and order agencies deal with it . Please do not try to single out Islam or Muslims for a divisive agenda . It has been correctly noted here that : " Honor killings are, however, distinct from wife battering and child abuse ..." It is against Islam and against the Laws of the U. S.

well, just glad folks are talking about this and not just economy or crashes or other topics. Would be equally nice if this was front page news and not about cartoons or apes. Thank you all.

One can argue for or against apologizing for religions or religious fanatics, but we have a lot of commenters saying "Leave their religion out of it! Murder is murder!". Well, yes, it is. Therefore, there is no such thing as a "hate crime", is there? And any so called "hate crime" laws on the books in the US are unconstitutional, aren't they? Did the guy kill his wife because he considered her to be a. a good Muslim gone astray, b. a bad Muslim, c. not Muslim enough to suit him, d. not a Muslim at all, e. an annoyance?
And if the answer is important to you, are you going to take his word for it? If he killed her because he hated her, does it matter? Is his membership in an organization enough to qualify him as the perpetrator of a "hate crime". For those of you still clinging to the notion that our nation and its laws were not based on faith-based tenets, we would have to have to have some acknowledgement that we can't proscribe killing, or we would have to allow, for example, sharia law, skinhead law, vampire law.

Maryann261 Author Profile Page:

"A husband beheading his wife is directly related to Islam."

Islam? Or tribal conventions developed over centuries, finding cover in religion? What does that matter?

"The "husband" should be executed by the U.S. government."

Find the right state and you may have no problem. NY?
We tend to inject with poison. Better? More civilized?

"End Islam in the United State now and forever. There is no place for Islam in a civilized society."

There is no way to "end Islam" in the US, ethically, morally, legally. And it is dramatists such as you that would use this violence to call for it. There are millions of muslims that live in the US peacefully and productively. Get off of your bigotry and religious elitism and get real, please.

I can't speak for other religions, but I know that Christians in different countries commit honor killings. Muslim misogynists shouldn't take all the credit for the belief that only women can bring shame upon a family; misogynists of different traditions deserve it, too.

It's wrong to blame this practice on Islam just because of crazy individuals, but it's also wrong because individuals of other groups are guilty of it, as well.

I could care less what type of killing it was. IF (and I say IF because he gets the benefit of due process) he murdered his wife, then he should get the death penalty. Too bad New York has declared the practice unconstitutional. I guess he choose the right state in which to commit this crime, if he in fact committed the crime.

Once again: Until the koran is recognized as the worst book ever written and eliminated as the operating manual for one billion Muslims, such senseless conduct will be condoned by global Muslims as something dictated by Allah via a "pretty, wingie, talking, fictional thingie named Gabriel. One can only scream, " THE SIGNIFICANT STUPIDITY OF IT ALL"!!!!!!!!!!!

And Misswairsey noted: "I can't speak for other religions, but I know that Christians in different countries commit honor killings.

Supporting references ???????

Muslim men have been used to treating their wives as live-in maids whose services can be terminated by them uttering the sentence “You are divorced” without a due process or suffering any monetary losses as a result. Those men cannot make themselves accept a situation, such as living in a civilized society, where their wives can divorce them and strip them of half of what they consider to be their sole possessions in addition to compelling them pay child support. They simply snap.

This man should have been in jail long ago. Everyone who threatens a spouse or other family member should be taken very seriously indeed by law enforcement in order to protect a possible victim.

I wish WAPO hade more articles on domestic violence and honor killings. 5000 victims every year? That equals how many plane crashes?

All religions are primitive, but Islam is at present the far worst. As someone said - still tribal.

One big difference between so called honor killings and other domestic violence, is that when it comes to honor crimes, the poor person (most often a young girl) will have to deal with all grown-up men in the whole extended family - father, brothers, uncles, cousins. All those boys and men are totally prepared to beat her, humiliate her, and kill her. Disgusting and cowardly.

If European nations, particularly Holland, are foreshadows of what is to come in the US, then expect a steady rise in honor killings, and for them to become increasingly gruesome. As Europe’s immigrant Muslim population grew, so did the number and intensity of Muslim honor killings (Holland had 60 in 2004). Part of this is the insular nature of the Muslim immigrants; part of it is the culture from which they have come; part of it is the example set by others – often others who read the Quran rather literalisticly. The beheading of Daniel Pearl incited similar follow on acts as ‘the proper way’ a Muslim man deals with his enemies.

Several of the posters want to detach this gruesome murder from the alleged perpetrator’s religion, but we can’t. Whenever we hear the news speak of a beheading or similar gruesome crime, the first thought that runs through our heads is “pervert" or "Muslim.”

If the Muslim world wants to reach out to the West and if those Muslims who wish to live in the West want to do so successfully, they need to understand that those aspects of their culture need to stay in their home countries. And Muslims already living in the West must become more proactive in helping new immigrants assimilate into Western society by resisting “Muslim pockets” in large cities and speaking out against the abuses of their fellow Muslims both here and, more importantly, aboard. If they are not willing to do this, one needs to ask the question, “If you did not intend to leave the old ways behind, why did you come here in the first place?”

Skowronek:
Indeed!
Henry the VIII had six wives:
Divorced, beheaded, died; Divorced beheaded survived

Yep, Christians beheaded their wives five hundred years ago, when they still believed in witches and that the sun revolved around the earth.

If you want to say that Islam's problem is that it hasn't left the Dark Ages because its believers still take its holy book literally, I'd probably agree with you.

Henry VIII killed his wives because they did not give him a son, not because he was a Christian. There was no system of honor killings in England at the time. The women were executed because Henry VIII had violated the tenants of Christianity. He created a new Church with himself at the head of it. Unprescedented for Christianity at the time. And the women were executed for political crimes, like treason.

Liberals just can't face facts. The important fact here is that in Islam honor killings of women by their family members; husbands, fathers, mothers, brothers do the killing and they do it because Islam justifies it. Not a single Muslim country, moderate or tyrannical, discourages or takes any real action against honor killings.

Honor killings are just another aspect of the murderous aspect of Islam; just like their invasions of non-Muslim countries, the beheading of non-Muslims, suicide bombing, self-segregation, and the wide-scale hate preaching. All subsidized by the dominant Wahabbi sect that dominates the Gulf oil states.

It doesn't matter where they are. The muzlum religion and the fanatics that follow it are garbage and nothing can change that fact.

Just look at the human cesspools these swine have created and call it home.

Honor killing?

Who can really believe the killer is honorable?

Henry VIII killed his wives because they did not give him a son, not because he was a Christian.

He killed his wives because they dishonored him by not bearing a son.

Killing your spouse, significant other or family members is a dishonorable act, no matter how it is done. There are plenty of people in this country, and the world, who have done exactly that. Some put the guise of religion over it, others are more direct and state it was about control or obedience; there are many reasons offered. Take your pick.

I simply offered up Henry because most people have at least a nodding acquaintance with his name and what he's best remembered for; killing two of his wives. But if you wish to hold him up as an example of a good Christian, that's your look-out.

Sadly, violence is at the heart of Islam. In almost all cultures today, children are taught to cherrish cute little lambs. In Islamic cultures, even children are taught to rejoice as lambs are ritualistically and religiously decapitated slowly, as their warm blood squirts everywhere, eyes full of terror, and voices squealing for their mothers.

You know, a lot of people could benefit from a trip to a slaughterhouse. Your dinner chicken/beef/turkey/pig/lamb didn't disembowel itself and leap onto your plate. There is a gentleman on Rt 27 who raises and slaughters cattle and you can buy a side of beef from him. He's not Muslim, but I suspect those cows aren't killed much differently than the way you described the lambs being killed. It's kosher, by the way.

Now, having killed and field-dressed deer, as well as hogs, cows and chickens, I can tell you that it's hard, messy work. But as it's also a way to keep yourself and your family fed through the winter, it sure beats starving. So did all the canning and freezing of the vegetable garden and the berry patch

I stand by my statement, that anyone who harms or kills a member of the family for having the temerity of having their own life is a coward. I don't care what beliefs they espouse. And it happens all the time in this country and around the world. I don't care if it's an abusive wife-beating bastard who then states, "If I can't have her, no one will!" or some cluck who says, "God says she's to obey me because I'm the master!" or whatever. Ditto for women who kill, maim and mangle their family member(s). It's not about honor, it's about control.

Dear Ignorance;

I see you have come out to play today in many of your various colors.

How many non-Muslims know the Koran better than the imams!

There is Islam, and there is culture. As many Christians can distinguish between their own cultural beliefs and practices, as Paul formed a Christianity compatible with Roman culture, here many do not distinguish between culture and Islam and between the different Islams shaped by local cultures.

My Midwestern hometown has had a mosque since 1928 and never a problem between its Christian and Muslim residents.

Yet ignorance insists Islam is a primitive religion full of violence. Indonesia has the world's largest Muslim population, Indonesians don't practice honor killings, nor the Muslims of Bangledesh or sub-Saharan Africa.

May knowledge bring you peace.

Shalom, In'shallah

dgblues, I can't disagree with you that virtually all religious texts have violent passages; my point is that currently there is only one "religion" that uses their texts to justify violence against non-believers and women. I'm an atheist, not a bible-thumping Christian. But I do know that Christianity underwent a reformation that abandoned the violence of their past. Point out to me, at your earliest convenience, the most recent case of Christian, Jewish or Hindu religious LEADERS using their "sacred" scripture as a justifiable basis to incite their flocks to violence. Your old Testament "citations" are generally accepted by Christians and Jews as historical in context, and not applying to today's world. Not so with many of Islam's LEADERS in their interpretation of the 8th century text of the Koran, and later Hadith and Sunnah. Until the passages in Islam's "sacred" texts that exhort violence are roundly rejected by Muslims, they will continue to be suspect.

What about "the troubles" in Northern Ireland? That only ended quite recently.

Aside from condemning the killing and speaking out, what else are American Muslim organizations doing?

What are the consequences muslim murderers will suffer inside the muslim community?

Reply to Justillthen,

It is people with your type of attitudes that are destroying this country. This murderer, a complete savage, deserves to die. There are crimes for which the state should use execution, and this is one of them. New York is a capital crime state. The libs running the state need to use it, especially in cases like this. Considering what you wrote, it does not seem that you think beheading is all that extreme. Would Muslim women beheading their husbands as a matter of course be acceptable to you?

Anyone who supports the right of Islam to exist in this country is really an enemy of the U.S, of the West, of freedom and equality. These are values that need to be unheld. Libs should be supporting these values rather than tolerance of anything and everything.

Considering the way Islam treats women, an animal is better off.

You need to get real. Islamists are trying to destroy the U.S. The entire Western civilization is at war with Islam. Apologists like you are weakening the West. It will probably take a major war to win the war with Islam. It won't be pretty. The West better win, or else everyone can kiss the free world goodbye.

The reason many people hate Islam is what is done in the name of it. Unless if reforms, which I doubt is possible, it will never command any degree of respect by those who value freedom and equality. Equality for woman, a basic human right, is not a value Muslim men agree with. What can be expected by people who believe in a "relgion" that was founded by a pedophile? Nothing but barbarism. Muslims do not belong in the U.S. Your support of them makes me wonder if you are a Muslim or a crazy lib.

Westtexan2008--- Europe is finished. The Europeans will be minorities in their own countries, probably living under sharia law. The libs in Europe are either in denial or so brainwashed by tolerance that they don't see it coming. When they are under sharia law, they will then appreciate what they will have lost. All demographsics show that if European immigration continues on its present course, Europe will be Muslim, and that will have serious implications for the U.S. The Muslims breed like animals while most Western people are under the replacement rate, so the Muslims will have the advantage in numbers. They cannot even control their breeding practices. The real Europe is doomed to eradication. The U.S. has a better chance of surviving as long as real Americans do not tolerate the Muslim way.

Every country dominated by Islam is a failure. The only thing the West needs from the oil-producing states is oil. Other than that, nobody would even care about the Middle East. The West needs to become energy independent to free itself from these savage lands. It is a true national security issue that should have been addressed long ago.

To all libs, Islamists are using the very freedoms of the West to undermine the freedoms of the West, a rather ironic situation. They know what they are doing. They want to destroy the West, and they do not care how long it takes. A few decades or more is nothing to them.

Re: Maryann261's Post.

Right on everything. Islam is antithetical to a modern, constitutional democracy, and especially to everything US of A stands for. Islamists cannot (or will not- i.e. refuse to) understand the concept, 'live and let live', cannot (or will not)understand the concept of Independence of state and religion, and they are using our own values to undermine us, taking advantage of our generosity. All countries, all religions and all cultures have their own warts, but unlike any other, Islamists refus to grow up, and continue to be mired in centuries-old violent, utterly intolerant tribal ways.

You are dead right when you bring up the oil issue, and we help dig our own grave if we don't learn how to adapt, how to learn to sacrifice for the sake of future generations, and step back from the greed, conspicuous consumption, and sheer instant gratification that are playing a major role in our society now.

George

Boy does america need hate speech laws, Islamic Americans must feel very threatened to read such despicable intolerant trash. I hope that they can see that by Americans voting for Obama, shows that these imbeciles must be well in the minority

And the winner of the award for the stupidest and most ridiculous post is . . . Maryann261! Apologies to all of the other contestants, but Maryann261 just blew the field away.

"Boy does america need hate speech laws,"

Yes, and the penalty for any cartoon showing the prophet should be beheading.

Once again: Until the koran is recognized as the worst book ever written and eliminated as the operating manual for one billion Muslims, such senseless conduct will be condoned by global Muslims as something dictated by Allah via a "pretty, wingie, talking, fictional thingie named Gabriel. One can only scream, " THE SIGNIFICANT STUPIDITY OF IT ALL"!!!!!!!!!!!

Aussiebarry---The U.S. does not need hate speech laws. The First Amendment is in full force, and it guarantees the right to free speech, not your lib speech, which is destroying the very essence of free speech. If you don't like what people say, don't read it. Maybe people don't like what you say and want your mouth muzzled. In America, people have the right to air their views. Islamists don't go for that. The Danish cartoon disaster proved that all too well. Fatwas were taken out on the cartoonists. Civilized people who were offended by the cartoons would have either griped, boycotted or written letters to the editor. Civilized people don't advocate killing others because they are offended. Only Islam calls for killing people. Killing or threatening to kill people is not a Western value. Why don't you ask Rushdie or Hirshi Ali, both of whom had fatwas taken out on them. The last I heard, Ali was with the American Enterprise Institute, a right-wing think tank. I read two of her books. I can see why she is with the American Enterprise Institute after what she experienced living under Islamic law. She only found freedom when she went to Europe by taking a detour. Her family had arranged a marriage with a Muslim living in Canada. He was living the Muslim way. The best thing Ali did was find the Western way. Based on your name, I think you are from Australia. I have an uncle who lives in Australia. He said the Muslims have caused plenty of trouble in Australia. Every free country is better without Muslims.

Egregiousphilibin--I would give you an award for being the dumbest imbecile ever born throughout human history. You are a bona fide lunatic. If you support the Muslim way, you are against the Western way. If you are ever beheaded by a Muslim and somehow survive, tell the world how wonderful it wasn't

I think what Maryanne is saying is extreme in form but she's not too off in content.
IMHO the real concern are muslims that do not adapt to society and there seems to be a significant number of them (muslims that do adapt are welcome, just like everybody else).

The main issue is respect. If you can't respect others, you shouldn't be here.

I'm curious at to what American muslim organizations/leaders are doing in their communities concerning respect and assimilation into society.

Maryann261, you're priceless. You are such a perfect imbecile that it is actually charming! I loved your last post. You said if I am ever beheaded and somehow survive (!) I should tell the world how wonderful it wasn't. Brilliant. But even better is your claim that "killing or threatening to kill people is not a Western value." Hilarious. The United States is one of the most violent countries in the world, both domestically and in its foreign policy. Have you checked the murder rate in the U.S. lately (not to mention the domestic terrorism of the antiabortion and anti-homosexual right wing)? Must be those rascally Muslims! How about America's history of imperialist aggression? (The Mexican War, the "Opening" of Japan, the "me-too" tagging onto the provisions the British got from China in the Opium Wars, the trumped up Spanish American War, the conquest and taking of the Philippines and Hawaii, stealing the Panama Canal fair and square as Teddy Roosevelt put it, deposing Mossaddegh in Iran, deposing Allende in Chile, etc., etc.). Must have been those Muslims again, disguised as Americans. Best of all in you post, though, is when you argue that the first amendment gives everybody freedom of speech at the same time you argue against the freedom of religion that is also protected by the first amendment. There's logic for you. I also loved your source for the claim that Muslims are a big problem in Australia--your uncle said so. I am neither a Muslim nor a Christian--I don't believe in fairy tales--but I would fight for the right of either to practice their religion freely in this country. Please, Maryann261, keep posting. You're a joy to read, side-splittingly funny.

Maryann261 - you are so un-American, I have to wonder what you are doing here.

GeorgeKS12 - not sure if you are just an idiot, liar or both.

Bios writes 'I think what Maryanne is saying is extreme in form but she's not too off in content.
IMHO the real concern are muslims that do not adapt to society and there seems to be a significant number of them'

Replace Muslim with Jew and you can see what a racist you really are.

'The main issue is respect. If you can't respect others, you shouldn't be here.'

Feel free to leave - real Americans won't miss you at all.

Marced,

What troubles you about what I wrote?

I am afraid how we treat our women may be the true cause of today's conflicts.

Egregiousphilbin--You are the biggest imbecile, the dumbest of all morons ever to disgrace this planet. You actually deserve to meet up with a Muslim fundamentalist and see how long you get to be free. If you should ever be attacked by one, I wouldn't feel one bit sorry for you. It would teach you a good lesson. My uncle has the right to his opinion. It seems that you don't mind shooting off your stupid mouth and expressing your moronic ideas. You seem to think that everyone else has no right to his/her opinion. You either crush your brain every single time you sit down or your head is stuck up your ass. Do keep posting. I cannot wait to see what other completely idiotic idea you nearly dead brain produces. If you do not like the U.S. stay out of it. The U.S. can do without trash like you. But for the U.S. there would be no free world. The U.S. put more resources into WWII than all other nations combined. The U.S. paid for most of Western Europe's defense after WWII. That continent of morons needed the U.S. or it would not be free to bash it today. Like the U.S. or not, you idiot, the U.S. has kept the free world free. It does take force at times to protect freedom. Europe never has gotten over having to be liberated by the U.S. after destroying their own continent.

Marcedward1-- I think it is you who are un-American. If you don't like diversity of opinion, what are you doing here? Remember that the First Amendment is in full force. Libs only like the First Amendment to support their own ideas. All libs are hypocrites. You are all for diversity as long as it ends with what you think, and that is hypocritical to say the least.

Muslims will never assimilate into the West. Americans who have forgotten about 9/11 and make excuses for those savages who terrorized Americans are un-American. The first attack on U.S. soil took place in February 1993 when Muslims bombed the WTC.

What group blew up trains in Spain? Muslims.

Those who support Muslims should not complain when the next terrorist attack occurs. If it is you or one of your family members, too bad. If you are all for them, you will have to accept terrorist attacks. It is the Muslim way of doing things.

However,as someone staunchly anti-Muslim and pro-American, I would rather fight them to the death than see America destroyed by those barbarians.

Bios asks:

“Aside from condemning the killing and speaking out, what else are American Muslim organizations doing?”

Mohamed Habib of the Muslim Brotherhood answers:
“There are already existing (Muslim Brotherhood) institutions; there are laws and a constitution that they operate under in order to have a role in serving the American society."

Below is part of the constitution with which they wish to serve the American society.
“The process of settlement [of Islam in the United States] is a "Civilization-Jihadist" process with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that all their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and "sabotaging" their miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's religion is made victorious over all religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim's destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who choose to slack.”
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/columnists/rdreher/stories/DN-dreher_09edi.ART.State.Edition1.4235f88.html

Marcedward1,

Muslims don't respect other people. They have no right to be here.

The Jews have the right idea. They live in a democracy, surrounded by enemies who want to destroy Israel. The Jews are not shy about it. If they did not take a hard line with their enemies, Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East, would be destroyed.

It appears that you do not respect other people's right to differing views. Maybe you should take a hike to Saudia Arabia and enjoy no rights.

Very revealing insight into Islamic culture. The various "imams" and Muslim organizations listed in this article didn't exactly address what happen. And it seems they're attempting to conflate an obvious Islamic honor killing with plain old domestic violence. This is the problem I have with Muslims, especially ones living here in the West. Readers take heed: look at what Muslims have done to Great Britain and the Netherlands and are doing to the rest of Europe.

There will never be any peace with Muslims. The United States of America should launch a nuclear attack and obliterate the Middle East. That would be the end of the problems. Harry S. Truman, a great American president, nuked Japan, and that took care of them. History needs to be repeated in another part of the world---the Middle East. The entire region is any enemy of this great nation, and the United States needs to do what is needed to defend itself. Only a nuclear assault will settle the matter once and for all. Bush could have been a great president if he made such a move. Bush blew it, and he blew it bigtime.

Maryann, you might be to far gone to understand this, but I would fight for CONL's right to critisise and attack islam or anybody's right to critisise judaism , christianity, atheism or any ism they want. The problem is when you attack and whip up hatred against muslims , jews , christians or any other people you disagree with. The world has learnt that lesson by the blood of millions.

mmm1110:

"There will never be any peace with Muslims. The United States of America should launch a nuclear attack and obliterate the Middle East"

Your as sick as any Islamic terrorist looney out there.

Thanks for the advice Osama

And
Maryann261:

"Muslims don't respect other people. They have no right to be here"
"It appears that you do not respect other people's right to differing views"

U do realize how badly u just contradicted (and embarrassed) yourself?
If u respected others rights to differing views then u would surely respect their right to be here?

You do realize the irony that you are also the ancestor of immigrants (unless u r native American).

Man its scary out there.

Unfortunately, democracy and Islam are quite different philosophies of life, society, and governance. It is quite difficult for Muslims to deconflict this. The question is really, can one be a good Muslim and follow Sharia law, when democracy requires one to follow the laws of man? Until this can be reconciled, there will at a minimum be friction and at worst, continued violence.

Guyswan,

**Can one be a good muslim and follow sharia law**

Yes,yes,one can if one believes *two plus two makes five* and be a mathematics professor.

I think Maryann261 may be a new incarnation of Farnaz. Same patterns of irrational -- sometimes hyterical -- posting.

Some of the comments posted here were so ugly that they prompted me to write a blog entry on this story and the comments which followed. If you're interested, you can see it at http://blog2.jhmeyer.net.

Sorry, it should be http://blog2.jhmeyer.net/2009/02/22/seeing-islam-in-the-violence.aspx

Maryann261 writes:

"However,as someone staunchly anti-Muslim and pro-American, I would rather fight them to the death than see America destroyed by those barbarians."

Look carefully at this statement.
"anti-Muslim": Hating people espousing a particular religion.
"pro-American": loving members of a particular country.

These two terms are not separate sets. There are literally millions of Muslims who are Americans - Americans who pay their taxes, vote, serve on juries, grouse about the local roads, etc.

How can the poster claim that she is for American freedoms - yet say that some loyal American's aren't free to their own beliefs, like my old boss, or the Muslim private who lives down the street?

One of Maryann261's recent comments, for those who are busy rallying 'round her banner. She has an interesting proposition regarding taxes, as well as evolutionary biology:

"You are a Catholic basher. You are a bigot. You are a sexist. Men commit most of the world's violence. Anyone denying that is just making pathetic excuses for men and their horrid actions.

The mothers are not responsible for those whose sons become axe murderers. The axe murderer is responsible for his actions. It so typical of men to blame mama for everything. Men are the biggest whiners when they are confronted with the truth. If you want to blame the mothers of sons who become axe murderers, you must blame the fathers as well. They should have had just as much influence. Blaming mothers is nothing but pure sexism on your part.

Almost every sex offender in the world is a male. There is no getting around that fact. Who commits mass rape in wars? None other than men. Who are the rapists in America? None other than men.

The male brain is wired for violence. Men must be condemned for their violent acts. I believe that there is a segment of the male population that is totally unfit for the civilized world.

I do hope that science can one day answer why men are so much more prone to violence than women.

Who overwhelming fill America's jails for all types of violent crimes? Men. The number of women incarcerated is nowhere near the number of women. We feed, clothe, shelter, provide medical care, dental care, recreation and education to people in jail. Since most of them are men, they use up a disproportional percentage of tax dollars to be housed in prisons. I think all law-abiding women should get a tax credit. Men should pay more since it is their sex that really does fill America's jails. We also know that not enough of them are incarcerated right now, let loose to commit more violent crime in our society.

Who commits most of the violent crime in America's inner cities? Men.

Who has beaten, tortured and mutilated women throught history? Men.

Men are just not as evolved as women. They commit almost all of the world's most unspeakable acts. Women are the superior sex. Women's brains are wired for the advanced world."

American society is in no way enhanced by the inclusion of Muslims. Islam is incompatible with all other religions and cultures. We'd be better off if we prohibited all immigration from Muslim countries. Diversity is NOT by definition a positive.

Keep them coming, Maryann261! Your latest post read like a parody of yourself. I loved the over-the-top bashing of me as "the biggest imbecile, the dumbest of all morons ever to disgrace this planet." And I loved the almost full paragraph of bashing and name calling with no attempt to actually include any substantive content. (Were you frothing at the mouth while writing?) You finally did attempt some actual content when you mentioned--albeit as a non sequitur--America's rebuilding of Europe after the war (and I loved that you called Europe "morons"). And I agree America deserves credit for that, though you are not so naive as to believe it was done for altruistic reasons, are you? But after claiming in your previous post that violence is Muslim, not American, you never (of course) addressed the history of American violence and tyranny--you know, genocide against Native Americans, slavery, lynching, organized murders of Chinese Americans in such places as Rock Springs and Chico, the murder of Chinese American Vincent Chin for being "Japanese," daily murders and rapes, my examples (just a sampling) of imperialist aggression throughout American history, etc.--. I also enjoyed the following inanity: "My uncle has the right to his opinion. It seems that you don't mind shooting off your stupid mouth and expressing your moronic ideas. You seem to think that everyone else has no right to his/her opinion." Wrong. Everyone has a right to express an opinion, but that doesn't mean others cannot respond to those opinions, since they too have the same right. Besides, I mentioned your uncle not to deny him the right to his opinion, but to mock the quality of your reasoning--your "documentation" of your claim that Muslims are causing trouble in Australia is "my uncle said so." Very authoritative source indeed! Listen, you have every right to be inane and to entertain the other posters with your inanity. I would fight for your right to write your gibberish. So keep them coming. The world needs more humor.

The Imams should start with taking the "honor" out of the term "honor killing." Really.

There is something so devastatingly perverse when one reads that this man killed his wife or daughter in an "honor" killing. Really.

In fact replace the word honor with the more appropriate work "perverse killing."

I am amazed at how the beheading of one woman brings about all sorts of anti-Muslim vitriol, yet the murdering of thousands of Palestinians by Zionists warrants hardly a peep against Zionists, who are certainly a culture just as intolerant and bloodthirsty as Islam. Double standard? You bet it is!

Such barbaric acts have their origins in misguided interpretations of religious scriptures. They will never end until a world body such as the UN and its leading western powers (including the US)demean theocracies and consign theocracies less than equal status in the UN until they adopt a secular constitution. Then and then alone they should be allowed to be full members of the UN.

We in the US, despite our Constitutionally-required separation of church and state, even the Obama administration has expanded the ill-advised Bush-creation of the "faith-based initiatives" programs and appointed a Pnetcostal Minister to administer the program. Then how can we in good faith criticize Islamic organizations and Jihadists who clamor for "sharia" or raise questions about the Israelis' discriminatory laws against the Palestinian Arabs?

As a supporter of Obama, I am most disappointed at the Obama administration's caving in to the Evangelical right of our Nation. While we must condemn incidents such as what happened in Buffalo, we ought to look at the "beams in our own eyes" before we criticize the moronic behaviors of religious bigots of Islam, Judaism, Sikhism, Hinduism etc.

An AP article on this subject is published here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/21/AR2009022100715.html?hpid=sec-religion

Interestingly, they talk about the verse in the Koran that Muslims use to justify violence against women but don't actually quote the text. Go figure.

The Wiki entry, in their typical fashion, tries to soften the verse, although trying to soften the conditions in which beating your wife is acceptable is still a verse that allows beating your wife.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An-Nisa_34

I side WILLIAMBROWN 100%, bury your head in the sand at your own peril people. That being said, there are many muslims that are no different to any other but they tend to be born muslims but dont feel the need to feel, prove muslim and especially not feel hatred of non-mulsims every second. However the threat from the nuts among muslims far far outweight any benifits from the rest.

WILLIAMBROWN15 :
Readers take heed: look at what Muslims have done to Great Britain and the Netherlands and are doing to the rest of Europe.

mmm1110 writes
'There will never be any peace with Muslims. The United States of America should launch a nuclear attack and obliterate the Middle East'

Try substituting 'Muslims' with 'Jews' and 'Middle East' with 'Israel' and we can see what a worthless excuse for a human being you really are.
Oh, and FYI, it's Israel that's been invading other countries for the last 20+ years, not Muslims countries.
DOH!!!

Reply to Marcedward1,

Nothing good has ever come from the Middle East. If the U.S. government obliterated it with a nuclear strike, Israel can go along with the Muslim countries. Israel has nothing the U.S. needs or wants. It too is nothing but a problem for the U.S. It is in American interests to nuke the region. A great American president would take a page out of Harry S. Truman's book ASAP. Truman took care of the Jap crap and is ranked as near-great president. Boldness has been rewarded by history. Boldness is needed now against the Muslim threat.

There is no such thing as a Muslim-American. The U.S. government should take every Muslim in the United States of America to Quantanamo Bay. They are a blight and a cancer on the country and will never be anything else.

If will take American firepower to solve the Muslim problem once and for all.

As the father of a daugher, I have a direct interest in how Muslims think about and treat women. I do not want to read about female genital mutiliation, beheadings, "honor" killings of women or subjugation of women in any fashion. I do not want this cancer spreading throughout the nation. All cultural practices are not equal. Anyone who supports this radicalism is a loon. What I cannot understand is that women side with the Muslim fundamentalists. I would think women would be especially concerned about their rights. Take rights for granted, and they can disappear before your very eyes.

Everyone with any sense knows perfectly well that the beheading of the woman in Buffalo by her husband has its roots in Islam.

Bush had his opportunity after the tragedy of 9/11 to launch nuclear warheads and destroy the region. It was an act of war against the U.S. Had he nuked the Middle East and sent all Muslims in America to Quantanamo Bay, we would not be talking about beheadings. Bush could have made significant inroads into solving the Muslim problem and ending their cultural practices in America. He would have killed two birds with one stone. Bush blew a golden opportunity, and for that he should be ranked as a failed president.

Multi-culturalism and tolerance are nothing but propaganda to force people to accept the intolerable. The media perpetrate this nonsense. Muslims will not assimilate. They have no place in America.

Why is it that Muslims are not speaking out against beheadings of women? The answer is that all Muslims approve of such practices. At least the fundamentalists say what they want to do. The so-called moderate Muslims are winking and nodding in approval. There is no such thing as a moderate Muslim.

honestly this is insane.

The guy came here to start a TV show that attempts to demonstrate to Americans that Muslims are not the radical Muslim terrorists that they seem to be based on US TV.

And in the end he beheads his wife for divorcing him. Which conclusion are we supposed to have, that is not what radical Muslim terrorists do? That it's normal Muslim behavior?

If it were not for the sad fact that many Americans beat and kill their wives and girlfriends, that man may have set-back Islamic/American relations by oh at least 6 years.

Once again: Until the koran is recognized as the worst book ever written and eliminated as the operating manual for one billion Muslims, such senseless conduct will be condoned by global Muslims as something dictated by Allah via a "pretty, wingie, talking, fictional thingie named Gabriel. One can only scream, " THE SIGNIFICANT STUPIDITY OF IT ALL"!!!!!!!!!!!

ps

I swear, the comment proceeding mine made me laugh my head off. It wasn't just stupid, it wasn't just utterly ridiculous, it was outright ludicrous. Why should any Muslim want to assimilate with people who advocate the nuclear destruction of an entire region of the planet, resulting in the deaths of hundreds of millions of people, and the devastation of probably a good fifth of the Earths' inhabitable surface with fallout spreading around the globe? How could they possibly "assimilate" with people who think like this?

Besides, what if a breeding-pair of Muslims escapes the nuclear attack? :)

"Multi-culturalism and tolerance are nothing but propaganda to force people to accept the intolerable. The media perpetrate this nonsense. Muslims will not assimilate. They have no place in America."

"Once again: Until the koran is recognized as the worst book ever written and eliminated as the operating manual for one billion Muslims, such senseless conduct will be condoned by global Muslims as something dictated by Allah via a "pretty, wingie, talking, fictional thingie named Gabriel. One can only scream, " THE SIGNIFICANT STUPIDITY OF IT ALL"!!!!!!!!!!!"

...oh but the Bible and Christian history are such great counterpoints to all this LOL

You religious people are hypocriticial nutcases, really. It doesn't matter *what* side you on or *what* book or priest you refer to.

OH, YOU JUST KNEW the Jews of the Washington Post
On Faith

would have to ballyhoo the story, didn't you?
It'll crop up again and again.

Watched an extraordinary thing last night on Convanent Television by a group called The Jewish Voice that spent half an hour talking aobut how the Bible means Satan is really someone named in the Koran, or something, and that it clearly says he means to be bad to Israel, or something. It was breathtaking. Sat behind a big desk with the Star on it and ranted
pure hate for half an hour.

It was unimaginable in the 50 or so years I've known in America, but then, they are desparate, are they not.

Congratlations to the Washington POST

on the kind of peole who post on their RELIGIOUS
site here. What superior dialogue; how valuable
they are.

And by the way, where in the Bible does it talk about the barbarians of Israel slaughtering
children in Gaza and the West Bank? And Lebanon?

And why is anti-semitism rife in the world, growing so dangerous that the ADL polls constantly? Perhaps look at the numbers and shut up about other religious lest history repeat.

One thing puzzles me. The husband who beheaded his wife (who was seeking divorce) was arrested after he brought the police to her head. He was charged with 2nd degree homicide. Why? How can a beheading be a secondary type of criminal act? The man is a violent criminal. Let me guess. He's a muslim and like O.J. Simpson, gets special treatment because its politically correct. God help us if we turn out like Holland.

Whistling,

Why dont you say any *superior dialogue* and *valuable opinion* on beheading women ?
Please,you write *valuable view* on beheading.
You write valuable things about *two women equals one man*
You write valuable consideration on *black wrap/cage*

You talk about anti-semitism.Yes,correct.Nowadays,anti-semitism is the new masturbation issue of hungry men in some countries.But,what about anti-islam in all over the world ?
Do they like islam in America Continent,Europe,Chine,India,Australia,Africa,Russia.Let me tell you very interesting valuable thing;In most of islamic countries,anti-islam is spreading.Yes,absolutely.

That Babbit woman got more press for cutting off her husbands penis than this monster. "Faith" can be an ugly, self-serving thing when the wicked get it. Born-againers scare the crap out of me too. No telling what they are capable of when they are "saved".

What’s unfortunate is that most people appear to be forgetting the main issue. It's unfortunate that American Muslims or any other Muslims with generally good intentions are constantly hijacked by the lunatics and criminals within their fringe. I am not a religious scholar so I won’t put too much energy into attempting to articulate why Islam does seem to get a tremendous amount of attention for the violence it produces. It may be arguable that it’s more violent than the other archaic and poisonous nonsense people continue to subscribe to. And if that’s the case it’s probably a direct result of the historical, social, regional, geopolitical context etc etc…. surrounding its birth. So Muslims should not waste their time defending it just as the reactionary bigots from other religious upbringings should not waste their time reacting to it. Christianity, Judaism and Islam are the same primitive concepts born out of antiquated needs that poison the living conditions of today because they are contextually incongruent with the modern world. Too many people are apathetic about pointing out the fact that it must end. Is Islam violent? Clearly it produces violence but pointing to Islam is semantic. Religion is the issue, not Islam.

and by the way as an afterthought with all the finger pointing ....how about the Catholic church denying the holocaust this week. weigh that against this poor broads head and her criminally insane husbands Islamic values.

Jewish Law calls for the stoning of adultrous Women.

exactly...unreal....watch Mahers flick Religilous.

DONTGE2CLOSE,
You write: "Christianity, Judaism and Islam are the same primitive concepts born out of antiquated needs that poison the living conditions of today because they are contextually incongruent with the modern world."
This is correct.

But, you also wrote: "Religion is the issue, not Islam."
This is incorrect for a very important reason. It is very ethnocentric, especially today, to equate religion with only the 3 Abrahamic faiths. The majority of people in the world are religious/spiritual but do not belong to Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. The Abrahamic faiths are supremacist belief systems, and this supremacist ideology leads to conflict and violence. All conflicts due to religion include at least one of the Abrahamic religions as one of the parties.

So, please don't equate religion with the 3 Abrahamic faiths because their violence and primitive beliefs create a false choice. Too many people in the West struggle with "meaningless" lives because they think religion means the 3 Abrahamic faiths.

you are correct Im not carrying the discussion far enough, but Im hardly publishing here. appreciate your thoughts and did not seek to offend you.

I am totally sick of all religion not just Islam in particular, though I have to conclude they are at this time in history the most violent. I tried to believe that most Muslims are truly peaceful and respect human rights and do not treat women like cattle. I tried very hard, but like the right wing Christians, Muslim actions speak louder than words.

This beheading is a result of culture and religion, how could anyone say otherwise? In our country getting a gun and shooting someone is pretty dam easy to do but cutting someone's head off? That is a bloody difficult thing to do, you have to have a reason that allows you to manage it. You have to have been inculcated with a set of values that allow you to justify it. How did a Christian kill a doctor because he performed abortions? He had a religion that justified it.

Muslims the world over committed heinous acts of violence when cartoons of Mohammed were published. This was not the act of a few extremists, millions marched in violent protests. They burned buildings, murdered and abused in mass. The events that unfolded over cartoons, a protected freedom of speech issue, forever changed my views on the Muslim religion. If a large majority had been willing to stand up and condemn the violence over cartoons perhaps that would have mattered. However, they did not, "moderate" Muslims told us they condemned the violence but they "understood it". Therein lies the problem...

"Men never do evil so gleefully as when they do it in the name of religion." Blaise Paschal

i think that in Muslim communities, there is a strong fear that women, especially feminists, will undermine traditional Islam. i think honor killings are respected in Muslim communities. it is a part of their culture.

"Skowronek Author Profile Page:

Sadly, violence is at the heart of Islam. In almost all cultures today, children are taught to cherrish cute little lambs. In Islamic cultures, even children are taught to rejoice as lambs are ritualistically and religiously decapitated slowly, as their warm blood squirts everywhere, eyes full of terror, and voices squealing for their mothers."

So Jews and Christians don't eat lamb? Anyhow Jews are willing to cut their own childrens throats if a talking bush tells them to.

Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com

mmm1110 writes
'Nothing good has ever come from the Middle East.'

Wrong. I have many good food recipes that come from the middle east. Some 1/2 decent religions come from the middle east (Christianity, Islam and Jusism come to mind). Math, writing....gee, we get a lot of good stuff from the middle east!

'If the U.S. government obliterated it with a nuclear strike, Israel can go along with the Muslim countries.'

Hmmm. I think advocating for mass murder and attempted genocide pretty much makes you a loony.

'There is no such thing as a Muslim-American.'

But there are plenty of good Americans who are Muslim, some who have died protecting your sorry rear end.

'The U.S. government should take every Muslim in the United States of America to Quantanamo Bay.'

Except it'd be totally against the constitution. You're not much up on American law are you?
You sir are a rather pathetic, small minded and hateful person. I pity the people who have to work with you!

Maryann261 writes
'Muslims don't respect other people.'

Sure they do. If you bothered to read a little bit you'd know that under Islamic rule Christians and Jews do much better than Muslims and Jews do under Christian rule. History can be your friend, ignorance only makes you look stupid.

'They have no right to be here.'

Well, no more right than you have to be here.

'The Jews have the right idea. They live in a democracy, surrounded by enemies who want to destroy Israel.'

You mean Zionists. As many Jews prefer NOT to live anywhere near Palestine/Israel.

'The Jews are not shy about it. If they did not take a hard line with their enemies, Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East'

Israel isn't the only democracy in the Middle East - are you a liar or just plain ignorant?

'It appears that you do not respect other people's right to differing views. Maybe you should take a hike to Saudia Arabia and enjoy no rights.'

When you lie I do you the favor of correcting you. When you say something stupid I do you the favor of correcting you, the way an adult corrects a child, or a man might correct a puppy who piddles on the floor. How else will you learn anything?

Muslims are against violence??? Wow, you could have fulled me. This religion is all about taking over the United States and installing their disgusting religion. If we let them continue to spread throughout our country, we will all die.

dubya19391,

Apparently you missed the synopsis of the flaws and errors of the major religions:

Here are two of them for those eyes that have not seen:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a
mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

Current crisis:

Realization that the Jews are not god's chosen people.

www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology.

Marcedward1 writes to Maryann 261:

"Israel isn't the only democracy in the Middle East - are you a liar or just plain ignorant?"

Kindly inform us of the other democracies in the Middle East, those in which democratic principles are not merely stated on paper, but enacted. I refer, of course, to freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religon, free elections, etc.

Abhab:

That link you posted made me sick...if any of that is true I just hope the fbi is on them.

Regardless, I think we should keep our heads in place. It’s no use to get hyper-aggressive against all muslims ‘cause we can’t generalize to that point, but we should definitely address the problem of their assimilation to society. Specially concerning women.

There has to be a clear message from a legal point of view, specifically, in all these cases of religious rooted violence. This man who decapitated his own wife should be sentenced accordingly and no mitigating circumstances should be considered.

In parallel, muslim organizations/leaders should also cast out the individual committing the crime, help the family of the victim and eliminate this element from their own ranks.

Here is the self-evident situation. Pakistan's situation is desperate. It may be too late for anyone to do anything.We in the US have surely done enough to contribute to the problems.The best we can offer is assistance and refuge to those who want to leave.

Ivri:

What??

Just like that? Offer refuge to those who want to leave...and then have them commit domestic crimes here and have them also suffer all the consequences that come with a lack of adaptation?

Not just like that. That’s not the best we can offer. At least not without a long process of learning and adaptation to the current laws and customs that we have.

Bios:

"What??"

There are many in Pakistan who are as familiar with "our way of life" as we are. Unfortunately, with the recent mass murder of the tribal elders, that is, the victory of the Taliban, the presence of Afghan extremists throughout the country, an incompetent, corrupt leader, the situation is deteriorating daily. Obvously, we can't simply land planes at the airport and say welcome aboard with no investigations, but something has to be done, as much for our sake as for theirs, and it needs to be done quickly.

IVRI5678

You must be nuts. Those in Pakistan can stay there. They will only cause more problems for the United States. What they will do is come here and live exactly the way they do in Pakistan, which is the problem with Pakistan. The last thing this countries needs are maggots from Pakistan.

whistling :

"OH, YOU JUST KNEW the Jews of the Washington Post
On Faith"

Kindly provide evidence that Sally Quinn, Meacham, and Waters are Jewish. Ditto Katharine Bouchage Weymouth, the current CEO.

mmm1110 :
"The last thing this countries needs are maggots from Pakistan"

I don't know much about the ecological function of maggots, but I'd imagine we already have them in sufficient quantity. My post concerned persons, not insects. I was suggesting, that having done significant damage to Pakistan, as well as to several others, we give those people who pose no threat to us, the opportunity to save their lives.

IVIR5678

The Pakistanis belong in Pakistan. The United States owes them nothing. I don't want to spend any money to save their lives. Why should I? It is a waste of good American tax dollars.

To hell with all of them.

On January 31, I wrote the follwing on Eboo Patel's Faith Divide Blog. It seems prescient given the wife beheading in Buffalo, NY last week by a Pakistani-American Muslim.

"The Muslim world should be the real target of your intrafaith dialogues for tolerance and peace. Make Islam less violent, and you will have done humanity a great favor.
Help Muslims reject violence for real. Just saying Islam is a religion of peace to other faiths will not work.
For example, take concrete action like prohibiting the beheading of animals when celebrating Islamic festivals. This will lead to less beheading of humans (muslim and nonmuslim) in the Islamic world. Its not so hard if you are honest.JANUARY 31, 2009 8:42 PM | REPORT OFFENSIVE COMMENTS"

On January 31, I wrote the follwing on Eboo Patel's Faith Divide Blog. It seems prescient given the wife beheading in Buffalo, NY last week by a Pakistani-American Muslim.

"The Muslim world should be the real target of your intrafaith dialogues for tolerance and peace. Make Islam less violent, and you will have done humanity a great favor.
Help Muslims reject violence for real. Just saying Islam is a religion of peace to other faiths will not work.
For example, take concrete action like prohibiting the beheading of animals when celebrating Islamic festivals. This will lead to less beheading of humans (muslim and nonmuslim) in the Islamic world. Its not so hard if you are honest.JANUARY 31, 2009 8:42 PM | REPORT OFFENSIVE COMMENTS"

On Feb. 5, I wrote the following on Eboo Patel's blog about justifying violence and beheading, prior to the wife beheading in Buffalo, NY.

"Your approach to the problem of religious violence seems to be as an apologist for Islamic violence by calling it extremist or fringe. It is not fringe.

Sadly, violence is at the heart of Islam. In almost all cultures today, children are taught to cherrish cute little lambs. In Islamic cultures, even children are taught to rejoice as lambs are ritualistically and religiously beheaded slowly, as their warm blood squirts everywhere, eyes full of terror, and voices squealing for their mothers.
Enough warm and fuzzy statements. Enough deflections and obfuscations. Enough pretending that violence is not part of the core of Islam. FEBRUARY 5, 2009 1:09 AM | REPORT OFFENSIVE COMMENTS "

I do not hate Islam. Islam hates me.

I am sure the next time a Muslim commits suicide it will be classified as terrorism. I am just sick of tired of so much bigotry in the US media.

The are hundreds of wife murders committed in the US but no one ever associates it with religion or culture unless it is Muslim.

A woman on the new this morning clearly described how both the wife and husband's family is intricately tied into the 'family' before a divorce can start it must be approved by both extended families. this is where there is a problem. ladies how many of you would allow your mother/father-in-law to have a say in whether or not you can divorce thier abusive son? or even better yet wait for their approval along with the rest of the family?

No, you misunderstood; but the error was mine. I copied and pasted another person's post beginning at "Sadly, violence is at the heart of ..." But I failed to put in the quotation marks.

My reply was the following paragraph, where I pointed out that people are, generally, rather disconnected from the source of the meat on their plate. And for all that there are those who feel squeamish about sacrificing or slaughtering animals themselves, it's done all the time. We call them slaughterhouses and meat packing plants.

Sorry for the confusion.

mchaun Author Profile Page:

"Skowronek Author Profile Page:

Sadly, violence is at the heart of Islam. In almost all cultures today, children are taught to cherrish cute little lambs. In Islamic cultures, even children are taught to rejoice as lambs are ritualistically and religiously decapitated slowly, as their warm blood squirts everywhere, eyes full of terror, and voices squealing for their mothers."

So Jews and Christians don't eat lamb? Anyhow Jews are willing to cut their own childrens throats if a talking bush tells them to.

Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com

"All conflicts due to religion include at least one of the Abrahamic religions as one of the parties."

Really? Really? So there were no wars over regligion before the "Abrahamic" faiths appeared? This is ludicrous on it's face.

MMM1110 wrote:

"The Pakistanis belong in Pakistan. The United States owes them nothing. I don't want to spend any money to save their lives. Why should I? It is a waste of good American tax dollars. To hell with all of them."

I couldn't agree more. Good post.

It takes a long time, working hard, to hack and separate the head from the body, even when armed with bone-cutting weapons. This murder was not "domestic violence" but an act of barbaric hatred, coupled with a determination to destroy. Yet it is cavalierly described as "domestic violence" (every husband does it, right?)and even called a RIGHT given to a "dishonored" man. Get the political correctness out of this and send that man to prison for first degree murder.

Once again: Until the koran is recognized as the worst book ever written and eliminated as the operating manual for one billion Muslims, such senseless conduct will be condoned by global Muslims as something dictated by Allah via a "pretty, wingie, talking, fictional thingie named Gabriel. One can only scream, " THE SIGNIFICANT STUPIDITY OF IT ALL"!!!!!!!!!!!

Oppression of women is a hallmark of a Muslim majority society. Violence against women is expressly condoned in the Koran. Keeping women barefoot and pregnant is also a sign of oppression and guarantees that Muslim majority nations like Pakistan grow the population more quickly than their economy. They make their own bed and can sleep in it. It is the will of Allah.

Ivri:

I understand your point of view and we have to be responsible for our actions in foreign countries. This is one of the reasons why our foreign policy needs to be urgently upgraded. Yes, we will pay for our errors as everyone does. There are consequences to every action. This is a good reason to get more involved socially and politically, and help decide which decisions we want to take as a country.

However, every country has their own responsibility with their own people. If Pakistan has a corrupt leader and the situation is deteriorating they will have to find a solution themselves. We can’t save the world. We can offer assistance but flying people over here is not a real solution.

Because this subject is so complex, every move should be studied and estimated in advance. Are we not creating more problems than we are solving by bringing people over here? Are we going to do this with every country that we find we have some responsibility with? Can’t we offer assistance and relocate them in nearby countries with similar culture?
I don’t know. Definitely not an easy situation.

I received permission from someone to post this here; she's in her late 60's now and this was her take on the way things have changed in this country (USA).

Miami says:

"Just some food for though:

in 1981 the Supreme Court overturned state laws designating a husband “head and master” with unilateral control of property owned jointly with his wife. Prior to this if you wanted a divorce and didn't have access to any money outside of your marriage you couldn't hire an attorney. No money meant no attorney and if your husband said no money you got none.

The Pregnancy Discrimination Act was not passed until 1978. Prior to that you could be fired or forced to take maternity leave. Until 1976 women were not even eligible for unemployment at any time during their pregnancy. That would make it pretty difficult to leave a marriage while you were pregnant if you didn't have any outside support systems. You couldn't support yourself.

Until 1973 it was not illegal to place help wanted ads specifically for only men. A woman could not apply for the job qualified or not.

Until 1971 in most states men were given automatic preference as administrators of wills. Women were automatically viewed as less competent.

Until well into the 60's, in many states it was not illegal for a man to beat his wife so long as she didn't sustain permanent physical harm.

Until the early 60's many states weighted jury selection against women because women were "the center of the home" and many states outright prohibited them. Lets say you file for divorce and it goes to court. The chances were very very good that the jury would be entirely composed of men. Doesn't exactly increase the woman's chances of winning, does it?

Until 1965 in many states birth control was prescribed only to married couple. This did not, of course, include condoms. It only included birth control that could be used by women. Well into the 70's, in most states a woman could not get birth control without her husband's consent. Until well into the 80's a woman could not get sterilized without her husbands consent.

Think on this. You have several children due to the fact that you have no birth control and you have no right to deny your husband his conjugal rights. It was within his rights until the late 70's to rape you. You cannot get a well-paying job as these are reserved for men. You have no money of your own and you can't get any because your husband, as the head of household, controls all the money. If you do leave your husband you MIGHT get a small amount of alimony but you wouldn't get any of the money that he "earned." Does it sound like it would be easy to divorce a cheating husband?

I think that we today forget how far we have come and how in the very recent past women were discriminated against in every way. For women who came of age after this time, it's hard to imagine the degree to which women were denied rights but all one has to do is take a basic look at history to see it in black and white."

"Clearthinking, ironically-named:

"Sadly, violence is at the heart of Islam. In almost all cultures today, children are taught to cherrish cute little lambs."

Then not ask where the veal parmigiana comes from, of course.

" In Islamic cultures, even children are taught to rejoice as lambs are ritualistically and religiously beheaded slowly, as their warm blood squirts everywhere, eyes full of terror, and voices squealing for their mothers."

It's not like I particularly approve of how *any* 'people of the book' think of animals, but you obviously anthropomorphize inapproriately, here, with obvious intention to demonize people.

If you ever lived on a farm where you slaughter your own food, rather than get it repackaged in plastic from some semi-mechanized abbatoir out of your sight, you might not be so inclined to use such depictions.

After all, what's your own Christian religion call people but 'sheep' and 'lambs to the slaughter' and even your own savior guy as a sacrificial lamb?

Of course, if we thought better of animals we eat, we might be less-inclined to treat *each other* so.

Certainly, it's hard to argue for a beheading as a 'crime of passion' strictly-speaking. But as domestic violence goes, you're just as dead whatever ceremonials and rationales are followed.

Mote, plank, and all. Women are abused every.... Wait for it... Six seconds, in America, as long as it took for some to read that.

If you want to say 'Islam has violence at the heart of it,' well, your own religion isn't so different about certain base presumptions. Pointing fingers at outsiders doesn't mean you're doing any better.

And you, and your esteemed friend are very right, Skowronek, ... people who romanticize the 'bad old days' of an American 'Christian Nation' are either forgetting or obfuscating just how nasty our own country was about a great many things, even as someone my age was born and reared.

It's not that Christianity is any 'inherently better' than Islam in these regards, it's that our *freedom* ...that very *secularism* some demonize.... teaches us better.

I'm going to post this again, but with the quotations in the correct places. Just so it's clear what is my thought versus someone else's statement.

ClearThinking1's post on the 20th of February, at 4.46 a.m.:

"Sadly, violence is at the heart of Islam. In almost all cultures today, children are taught to cherrish cute little lambs. In Islamic cultures, even children are taught to rejoice as lambs are ritualistically and religiously decapitated slowly, as their warm blood squirts everywhere, eyes full of terror, and voices squealing for their mothers."

Skowronek's reply:

You know, a lot of people could benefit from a trip to a slaughterhouse. Your dinner chicken/beef/turkey/pig/lamb didn't disembowel itself and leap onto your plate. There is a gentleman on Rt 27 who raises and slaughters cattle and you can buy a side of beef from him. He's not Muslim, but I suspect those cows aren't killed much differently than the way you described the lambs being killed. It's kosher, by the way.

Now, having killed and field-dressed deer, as well as hogs, cows and chickens, I can tell you that it's hard, messy work. But as it's also a way to keep yourself and your family fed through the winter, it sure beats starving. So did all the canning and freezing of the vegetable garden and the berry patch

I stand by my statement, that anyone who harms or kills a member of the family for having the temerity of having their own life is a coward. I don't care what beliefs they espouse. And it happens all the time in this country and around the world. I don't care if it's an abusive wife-beating bastard who then states, "If I can't have her, no one will!" or some cluck who says, "God says she's to obey me because I'm the master!" or whatever. Ditto for women who kill, maim and mangle their family member(s). It's not about honor, it's about control.

February 20, 2009 7:44 PM

And you, and your esteemed friend are very right, Skowronek, ...

Awww, I'm blushing!

Sko:

"You know, a lot of people could benefit from a trip to a slaughterhouse. Your dinner chicken/beef/turkey/pig/lamb didn't disembowel itself and leap onto your plate. There is a gentleman on Rt 27 who raises and slaughters cattle and you can buy a side of beef from him. He's not Muslim, but I suspect those cows aren't killed much differently than the way you described the lambs being killed. It's kosher, by the way."

Frankly, a lot of Muslims have trouble, apparently, about *finding* animals treated well-enough in *life* to be ritually-pure enough for their Ramadan feasts.

Of course, killing food-animals without making a mess of suffering about it is something that's a skill, and not one that comes from a 'holy book' of any description.

Oh, but on this:

"He's not Muslim, but I suspect those cows aren't killed much differently than the way you described the lambs being killed. It's kosher, by the way."

'Kosher' isn't actually the cleanest and most suffering-free way to go about it, either, btw.

Those big slaughterhouses can be 'kosher,' in fact. There are better ways that would *not* be kosher, is my understanding. (Also not to say the Muslim ways really actually have the animals at heart. Something about ear tags is one of the big concerns)

Bottom line. Regardless of what Muslims bring to this country regarding "Honor Killing," spousal abuse, or any kind of domestic violence, they pay the same price as everyohe else. Just as in every other community, perhaps more so under the circumstances,* Mulim communities need to be innundated with information on domestic violence, where women can go for help, hotlines, etc. Teachers must be especially warned to be on the lookout, etc.

HOWEVER, the fact is that not all Muslim men are guilty of such violence, as it should be needless to say. From a legal perspective, whether its root is in the religion or the culture (the latter is from where it issues) is irrelevant. It must be stopped. As must all domestic violence.

I would add that spousal abuse is also well accepted in many non-Muslim countries, and we should be looking into how it makes its way here with other ethnic groups.

*The cricumstances are that, although honor killings are against the laws in most but not all Muslim nations, they exist, are culturally condoned, with perpetrators generally facing light or no prison terms.

Pagan at 3:02, right on. Christianity is not inherently better than islam.
Like a blogger said in another thread: “The only reason that christians have become such goody-goody two-shoes is that their poison fangs have been pulled”.
Indeed, when christians ruled in Europe things were just like they are in islamic countries today, handled with an equivalent level of intolerance.

Secularism certainly teaches us better.

Yes. I agree with your bottom line Ivri.

"Secularism certainly teaches us better."

Actually it was the unbelievable bloodletting in Europe before the Peace of Westphalia that taught us better. Perhaps we should let the Shia and the Sunnis learn their own lesson.

Good point, Ed. Let it be.

Keep in mind that a good Wiccan spell will solve all of these problems.

To bios, pagan, ivri, sko etc,

Your mother must have told you that just because somebody else is doing it, it doesn't make it right.

You all come across (I hope unintentionally) as apologists for bruatal and violent behavior. You seem to let your anti-Christian or anti-slaughterhouse agenda cloud your ability to recoil at this horrible beheading. Do you really NOT see a connection between Islam and beheading in this case? Do you know much about the rituals of Islam? Have you seen the Danny Pearle video or numerous other beheadings in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan? Do you know what actually happens on Bakri Eid? Look it up and look at some pictures.

"Domestic violence" and "beheading" your wife are not the same thing. Please do not use it interchangeably. "Beheading your wife" means
grabbing her hair, cutting her trachea, jugular veins, and carotid arteries - yes, the heart keeps beating for quite a while during this. Then working through the neck muscles, spinal ligaments, vertebral bodies (bone). Then you gently place the head next to her body. At this point, she will never ever disrespect you again.

Doesn't sound like a drunk guy giving his wife a black eye. But we shouldn't be judgemental.

Try reading the post in its entirety.

You know, a lot of people could benefit from a trip to a slaughterhouse. Your dinner chicken/beef/turkey/pig/lamb didn't disembowel itself and leap onto your plate. There is a gentleman on Rt 27 who raises and slaughters cattle and you can buy a side of beef from him. He's not Muslim, but I suspect those cows aren't killed much differently than the way you described the lambs being killed. It's kosher, by the way.

Now, having killed and field-dressed deer, as well as hogs, cows and chickens, I can tell you that it's hard, messy work. But as it's also a way to keep yourself and your family fed through the winter, it sure beats starving. So did all the canning and freezing of the vegetable garden and the berry patch

I stand by my statement, that anyone who harms or kills a member of the family for having the temerity of having their own life is a coward. I don't care what beliefs they espouse. And it happens all the time in this country and around the world. I don't care if it's an abusive wife-beating bastard who then states, "If I can't have her, no one will!" or some cluck who says, "God says she's to obey me because I'm the master!" or whatever. Ditto for women who kill, maim and mangle their family member(s). It's not about honor, it's about control.

February 20, 2009 7:44 PM

Clear:

We are all condemning the beheading of this woman. I don’t see how we can come across as apologists for violent behaviour when we are all clearly against it. Please explain.

Is it because we said something against christianity that your thoughts became unclear?

Relax and read carefully. Read the whole thread from the beginning.

Are you implying something else?

What if there is a connection between islam and the beheading? Would this mean for you that islam is worse than christianism? Is this what you want to hear?
If there is a connection and maybe there is (but I think at least I would need more info to determine this) then poor islam and all its followers.

You say “Domestic violence and beheading your wife are not the same thing”. You are half right. Both terms are definitely not the same thing. But they are different whether done to your wife or not.

Where’s your clear thinking? Or is your thinking clear but your expression rather foggy?
Please explain.

Clear:

PS: Your mother.

Actually, we don't know if she was killed via beheading, or if that was done afterwards.

Either way, it's a violent and senseless act. I didn't see that anyone was clapping their hands together with glee about it.

The thing about evil, it will not be hid for long, and it will expose other evilness of it's kind. The wrath of God have fallen upon those who worship with assaulting anyone else, in most cases involving the Supreme Court there usually a limited amunity up until the period of the case in question. Only by the hand of god would all nine justices agree not to put a statue of limitation on an assault conviction prohibiting the possession of a fire arm. This will force the retirement,resignation or firing of a lot law enforcement officers that are hiding behind their union protection of their plea bargain agreement or conviction as a youth.