Inauguration Prayers of God or Government?

If Barack Obama is indeed a Christian, then he should welcome and encourage the name of Jesus Christ to be invoked during the invocation.

A few issues:

"Attorneys with the Rutherford Institute, which urged the Supreme Court to review the Turner case, argued that "government cannot itself pray, thus prayer cannot be government speech." "

Huh? Prayer cannot be government speech? Do they mean because it is from an individual? By this argument, nothing anyone in the govt says is "government speech."

"Warren, no doubt, will be allowed to pray any way he chooses next Tuesday. He's not a government official and an inauguration ceremony is not a legislative body."

I actually doubt that Warren will be allowed to pray any way he likes. I'm sure Obama's folks have provided some guidelines; if they have not, they should. And the inauguration not being a a legislative body is not the point; it is a public ceremony. If Warren prays to Jesus at the inauguration, he sends the not-so-subtle message that there is a government-backed religion and it is Christianity. So the millions of American who are not Christians are not "part of the club." Its subtle, but insidious.

"So, at least in this case, the opening prayer clearly is not serving a government purpose."

What?! A prayer delivered by someone chosen by a government official as part of a government-sponsored ceremony held on federal land surrounded by the symbols of the nation is not serving a government purpose??? How do you figure that?

"Given the current state of the government, that's too bad."

Prayer won't help. It was "faith" (in markets, Wall St, the individual etc.) that got us into this mess. Let's give rationality a chance.

"Attorneys with the Rutherford Institute, which urged the Supreme Court to review the Turner case, argued that "government cannot itself pray, thus prayer cannot be government speech.""

Thin. 'It's legally impossible we're doing what we're doing, technically, so it's therefore not prohibited even though it clearly should be? '

StantheMan, I couldn't have said it better myself!

Thank you for posting it - I get so riled up when religious people try to say it's all personal, it's not directed at everybody - and meanwhile all our taxpayer money is funding the entire event and it's open to the entire public because all us citizens voted the guy in to represent us.

And, if only prayer were left in the pews when it came to governing, we might be able to function like the supposedly 1st-world (is that a phrase?) country that we claim to be.

America is a Christian nation. It will rule this earth for a very long time simply because of that fact.

If this nation want to be destroyed, then leave out Christ. The prophecy states that a big portion of this country (the unbelievers) will be destroyed.

Afterwhich, when the idiots are gone, America will be invincible.

Can we sue to get equal time for invoking the name of Daffy Duck? I don't care one way or the other about Warren's prayer. But, this is NOT a Christian nation -- the first amendment precludes that possibility -- thank Daffy!

I'm in full support of STANTHEMAN1's comments.

I simply can't fathom why a man who ran on "Change" and "Unity" would kick off his term blindly following a divisive practice started in the mid 20th century. Where's the change I can believe in? Where's the effort towards American unity which was promised?

IF we were a Christian nation, then we would display true Christian principles and treat others as we would like to be treated ourselves. I am more than willing to have God addressed in a manner that includes as many of God's creatures as possible and I truly believe that the Jesus Christ who died for our sins would not mind in the least if He were included in the term "God" and not specifically mentioned in the prayers.

And the part of my soul that is drawn to my Celtic heritage wishes that Obama had asked a First American shaman to pray in place of Warren.

BO supposedly is about fairness. To that end, Paul, Mark, Matthew, Luke and John are responsible for about 70% of the NT adding the passages as if they were the words of the simple preacher man in an attempt to make said preacher into a god. P, M, M, L and J should therefore be the subjects of any Christian "sermon" at the inauguration of the new leader of the Immoral Majority (which also should be noted in any inaugural "sermon").

SPIDERMAN2

You wrote, "America is a Christian nation.".

America is not a Christian nation because if it were there would be no need for any laws.

Christianity is following Jesus, it is not setting up a political system.

You also wrote, "Afterwhich, when the idiots are gone, America will be invincible."

Jesus never ever spoke of a worldly Kingdom, quite the opposite, "My Kingdom is not of this world". Even tho many thru the ages have attempted this, they were going astray from what He taught.

Christianity is just part of God's unfolding Plan which includes the salvation of ALL OF HUMANITY and knowing God's Name does not necessarily make one a Christian.

God's Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth, will arrive on the seventh day but the night of the sixth day will come first.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Jesus Christ prayed "Thy Kingdom COME and Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in HEAVEN."

Apostle Paul said "You know that the saints (Christians) will rule the world, don't you? And if the world is going to be ruled by you, can't you handle insignificant cases? " 1 Cor. 6:2

Christ's Kingdom on earth is soon coming and it will start in Anerica. America will be invincible after the idiots are gone.

The prophecy is real. When Paul said those words, they were just a few of them and being hunted most of the time.

Wake up idiots coz you're treading on dangerous ground.

SPIDERMAN2

You wrote, "Jesus Christ prayed "Thy Kingdom COME and Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in HEAVEN."

It also says, "It is God's Will that ALL BE SAVED", does it not?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Wow we have Thomas "The Hallucinator" Baum and "Mean" Spiderman with dueling "thumptations". When will they learn some Reality, History and Common Sense???

Apostle Peter said:

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, BUT BUT BUT that all should come to REPENTANCE.

But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto FIRE against the day of judgment and PERDITION of ungodly men."

Baum, you should read the bible more and stop inventing new doctrines. Somebody might believe you and that would make you a FALSE PROPHET.

Apostle Paul said "You know that the saints (Christians) will rule the world, don't you? And if the world is going to be ruled by you, can't you handle insignificant cases? " 1 Cor. 6:2

CCNL, you are an idiot if you think that this prophecy is not happening now.

You and Baum should join hands and help cure each other's ignorance.

Hi, Spidey,

If I were you, I would listen very closely to Thomas Baum. He knows what he is talking about, and speaks it well. Think about what Jesus said and did.

ARMINIUS

Hi, good to see you on here. One day all and I do mean ALL will come to find out that not only is God real but that He cares for each and every one of us.

I said this quite a while ago but I will repeat it here, if, ultimately, only those that repent were going to be in the Kingdom then God could have stuck His Head, so to speak, out of heaven and yelled out: Repent or tough luck, but no, God came up with a Plan before He created anything, spiritual or material, and His Plan will come to Fruition.

One of the things that Jesus said was, "Repent and believe the Gospel" and as you know Gospel means "Good News", so what He said was "Repent and believe the Good News" not the 'good enough news'.

When the angels announced Jesus's birth, it is reported that they said two things, "This is Good News for ALL PEOPLE" and "Peace to whom God's favor rests", two different things, both true.

Hang in there, He hung in there for us, ALL of us.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

In the spirit of inclusiveness, the presence of conservatives at the inaugural dictates that Obama probably should not pray in Jesus' name. Conservatives, as best I can tell from all of their political beliefs, deplore, despise and oppose everything the Galilean preached.

He espoused finding common ground with and loving your enemies. Conservatives call that appeasement. FauxNews would roundly rake the Galilean were he to preach today.

He espoused helping the poor and had no patience for the rich counting their money in the temples. FauxNews and the right call that point of view socialism and class warfare. They would invent all kinds of lies about Jesus to detract from his political clout were he to preach today.

He espoused healing the sick. All of them, not just the rich ones. Conservatives call that socialist medicine and will fight it to their last pathetic breaths.

He espoused loving and understanding your neighbor no matter your differences. If he were around today and tried to put that in our schools conservatives would scream and moan about the encroachment of "namby pamby liberal tolerance agendas". Bill O'Reilly would ridicule Jesus on a nightly basis if he were alive today.

But the rightwing pseudochristians are happy to co-opt Jesus' brandname. It sells, and they are all about increasing their power.

So yes, in sensitivity to the people on the right who hate the man and all that he stood for, Obama should probably not bring his name up.

Believe stupidity and you will become stupid.

Im a believer of Christ, a Christian and not a Baum-nian.

Wait till I become a Baum-nian, then I might consider his new doctrines.

B2O2, you are inventing and mixing things up.

Do you know that the Southern Baptist is the third largest spender in terms of helping others?

The first two are the Red Cross and Salvation Army. The main difference is that while the first two are asking for donations, the Southern Baptists take it from their own pockets.

None of which is spent on guns unlike Islamic "charities".

This nation (the world in the near future) will be ruled by Christians and we Christians can do nothing about it whether we like it or not coz that's the prophecy.

You may take away Christ in the inauguration but it will come back with a vengeance. The idiots will be taken away as a result.

Nobody can stop the prophecy.

By the way, you may ask the Red Cross and Salvation Army who are its donors. It might turn out that the evangelical Christians are on the top 3 if not the top giver.

So many of you bozos just don't get at all why America MUST remain religion-neutral. Read your history, superstitious and credulous ones, and see what evil so-called Christians have done in the name of Jesus and understand why the First Amendment says what it says about religion. READ IT AND LEARN.

Spidey,

B2O2 is correct, both in what he said Jesus preached and did, and is also correct in how many people would disdain our Lord if he came back to preach again. Would you?

Why do they need to invoke Jesus? I'm sure that Jesus will be in attendance - doing a "terrorist fist-bump" with Dr. King and President Lincoln.

Now are we not all so very afraid of "Mean Spiderman" and his avenging, "pretty, wingie thingies"!!!

And fear not, the simple preacher man is not returning. He died, was buried and is now completely decomposed. Look closely, you might have a few of his atoms circulating in your body.

CCNL wrote "And fear not, the simple preacher man is not returning."

Yes, He is not coming in the near future, but the nukes will. And only a prayer addressed to Christ can save you. Remember that.

markinirvine wrote " So many of you bozos just don't get at all why America MUST remain religion-neutral. "

You must be dreaming coz America will not have this power over the world where it not for its Christian heritage.

Read this :

"You know that the saints (Christians) will RULE THE WORLD, don't you? And if the world is going to be ruled by you, can't you handle insignificant cases? " 1 Cor. 6:2

Taking away Christ out of America means America will be doomed. And it will be doomed partly to take away the idiots living within its borders.

Spidermean2 aka Canyon Shearer, Bible Thumper, Fortune Teller and Severely Brainwashed in that Old Time Religion,

The real view of God's/evolution's interactions with the human race:

From Father Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous contemporary theologian in his book, Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

"Christians (humans) must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history" .

"Nothing is determined in advance: in nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices.

Therefore the historical future is not known even to God; otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

And "Mean" Spidermean2, what "voodooer of the hoodoo" blessed you with such stupidity in the field of fortune telling and interpretations of said stupidity???

The reality of it all is that the "pew sitters" and "bowers" are coming to grips with the flaws in their religions and in ten years the religions of today will be unrecognizable or extinct as the "pretty and ugly wingie flying thingies" are finally buried in the piles of utter stupidity.

Spidey,

When you play fast and loose with facts it hurts your cause. Catholic Charities USA has been the largest private provider of social and medical services in the US for a long time. The American Red Cross is a Congressionally-chartered quasi-governmental nonprofit. Not sure where that leaves the SBs, but certainly lagging behind Lutheran Social Services, another large provider of services in major urban areas.

JF

I guess I can understand why the believer personnel here are supporting the jesus praying at Obama's inaguration - if nothing else it assists them in their ongoing need to convince themselves of the reality of their delusions.

I can use spidey as an example in the other direction. So, this is a christian. This is what christian contempt really looks like. If I ever needed a reason to remain free of religious belief, this perverted cretin provides an endless stream of them.

Still, I wonder why I never read any of you believers telling this spastic colon: don't help us, ok?

SPIDERMAN2

You wrote, ""You know that the saints (Christians) will RULE THE WORLD, don't you? And if the world is going to be ruled by you, can't you handle insignificant cases? " 1 Cor. 6:2

In the King James version it says, "2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?"

"Rule the world" is not the same as "judge the world".

In your quote you say saints (Christians), just because someone calls themself a Christian does not mean that they are one, just because someone says that Jesus is God-Incarnate does not make one a Christian even the demons say that.

There are many that call themself Christian that would not recognize Jesus if He was speaking personally to them or a representative of Jesus was speaking to them.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"America is a Christian nation."

Tell it to the American Indian, you invader and usurper.

There's only one way to know who is telling the truth and that is to wait. Wait and see what's coming.

Some people are simply hardwired to be dumb. They never learn.

If they can only learn, there is NO NEED for Doomsday to come.

Thomas Baum,
In the King James version it says, "2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?"

You are correct. The Greek verb here is krino. The root meaning is to choose, but it is mostly used to mean decide, or judge. It never means rule. I checked the KJV, and yes, it is 'judge', and the Revised Standard Bible also has it as 'judge'.

you can google this phrase : the third-largest volunteer disaster relief organization

There are at least two ways to consider the U.S. a Christian nation. The first is to realize that the majority of our citizens claim membership in a Christian sect. The second is to examine whether or not we are governed by a Christian sect; that is, are we a theocracy based on the teachings of a particular religous group.

The first is obviously true, the second is not. While the majority of Americans claim to be Christian, we are not a theocracy. The founders established a secular government to preside over a religious society. That is the meaning of the separation and free expression clauses of the First Amendment.

Whether or not a preacher invokes the name of Jesus during an invocation at the swearing-in of the new President is inconsequential. While it may offend me as a non-Christian, it matters not. The government continues to be a secular institution presiding over a religious society. And no matter what anyone might think about the "white man's burden," the saints are not going to rule the world.

In an analogous passage, did Matt 7:1-2a

"7:1 "Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. 7:2 For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get"

pass the rigid test of historical review by many of the contemporary historic Jesus exegetes.

No it did not. In this case, it is Matthew playing god.

http://www.faithfutures.org/JDB/intro.html

"And no matter what anyone might think about the "white man's burden," the saints are not going to rule the world. "

Funny but it's already happening starting from the end of WW2 and total rule by the end of WW3.

America can then rule in peace coz all the idiots around the world (also in America) are gone.

Finally Israel would be in peace and will also be converted to Christianity. That's the prophecy.

c ya later

ARMINIUS

You wrote, "You are correct. The Greek verb here is krino. The root meaning is to choose, but it is mostly used to mean decide, or judge. It never means rule. I checked the KJV, and yes, it is 'judge', and the Revised Standard Bible also has it as 'judge'."

So does the New American Bible.

Considering that God cares for each and every one of us, it seems that the "holy ones" should also, don't you think?

A question Arminius, not just to you but to everyone, since you say one of the meanings is to decide, since God decided to forgive the "holy ones" shouldn't the "holy ones" decide to forgive the rest?

It kind of reminds me of the person that was forgiven the HUGE debt by the King and then wouldn't forgive the little debt by someone else.

That is why I look at the bible as one book with a lot of chapters rather than this verse says and that verse says whereas what is the meaning of the bible as a whole.

Thank you Arminius for the Greek verb thing, as I have said before, I am not a linguist and God knows that, so I don't have to know the original languages, as a matter of fact, with me anyhow, the Holy Spirit speaks thru others quite often in very much everyday language.

I think where it says that we are to listen with the eyes of our heart, speaks volumns.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I hate this argument because all it does is fire-up the religious people. What does not saying God accomplish? I don't like saying "in the name that's above all other names, Jesus the Christ." That infers that all other religious figures are less than him, but choose your battles or we'll have to have a note from our reverend the next time it's time to vote!

For Thomas "the Hallucinator" Baum,

"Trinity Reality" 101

For added "pizzazz", Catholic theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

It is written “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.” “And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt. If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.” “And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha: Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.” Here is the name of Jesus you are gathered with, “eat at Jezebel's table” “In the portion of Jezreel shall dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel:” Solomon wrote “My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother: Bind them continually upon thine heart, and tie them about thy neck.” Where do you wear the cross of jesus, “Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.” “her than the skull, and the feet, and the palms of her hands.” “In the portion of Jezreel shall dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel: And the carcase of Jezebel shall be as dung upon the face of the field” The prophecy is clear, “And they brought forth the images out of the house of Baal, and burned them.” “Thus Jehu destroyed Baal out of Israel.” “And the Lord said unto Jehu, Because thou hast done well in executing that which is right in mine eyes, and hast done unto the house of Ahab according to all that was in mine heart, thy children of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel.” Do you see “thy children of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel.” This is the fourth generation. “And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren. After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons' sons, even four generations. So Job died, being old and full of days.” Remember “four generation” “full of days”

Now therefore send, and gather to me all Israel unto mount Carmel, and the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the groves four hundred, which eat at Jezebel's table. And Jezebel his wife said unto him, Dost thou now govern the kingdom of Israel? arise, and eat bread, and let thine heart be merry: I will give thee the vineyard of Naboth the Jezreelite.

And he lifted up his face to the window, and said, Who is on my side? who? And there looked out to him two or three eunuchs.
And he said, Throw her down. So they threw her down: and some of her blood was sprinkled on the wall, and on the horses: and he trode her under foot.
And when he was come in, he did eat and drink, and said, Go, see now this cursed woman, and bury her: for she is a king's daughter.
And they went to bury her: but they found no more of her than the skull, and the feet, and the palms of her hands.
Wherefore they came again, and told him. And he said, This is the word of the Lord, which he spake by his servant Elijah the Tishbite, saying, In the portion of Jezreel shall dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel:
And the carcase of Jezebel shall be as dung upon the face of the field in the portion of Jezreel; so that they shall not say, This is Jezebel.

And Jehu gathered all the people together, and said unto them, Ahab served Baal a little; but Jehu shall serve him much.
Now therefore call unto me all the prophets of Baal, all his servants, and all his priests; let none be wanting: for I have a great sacrifice to do to Baal; whosoever shall be wanting, he shall not live. But Jehu did it in subtilty, to the intent that he might destroy the worshippers of Baal.
And Jehu said, Proclaim a solemn assembly for Baal. And they proclaimed it.
And Jehu sent through all Israel: and all the worshippers of Baal came, so that there was not a man left that came not. And they came into the house of Baal; and the house of Baal was full from one end to another.
And he said unto him that was over the vestry, Bring forth vestments for all the worshippers of Baal. And he brought them forth vestments.
And Jehu went, and Jehonadab the son of Rechab, into the house of Baal, and said unto the worshippers of Baal, Search, and look that there be here with you none of the servants of the Lord, but the worshippers of Baal only.
And when they went in to offer sacrifices and burnt offerings, Jehu appointed fourscore men without, and said, If any of the men whom I have brought into your hands escape, he that letteth him go, his life shall be for the life of him.
And it came to pass, as soon as he had made an end of offering the burnt offering, that Jehu said to the guard and to the captains, Go in, and slay them; let none come forth. And they smote them with the edge of the sword; and the guard and the captains cast them out, and went to the city of the house of Baal.
And they brought forth the images out of the house of Baal, and burned them.
And they brake down the image of Baal, and brake down the house of Baal, and made it a draught house unto this day.
Thus Jehu destroyed Baal out of Israel.
Howbeit from the sins of Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, Jehu departed not from after them, to wit, the golden calves that were in Bethel, and that were in Dan.
And the Lord said unto Jehu, Because thou hast done well in executing that which is right in mine eyes, and hast done unto the house of Ahab according to all that was in mine heart, thy children of the fourth generation shall sit on the throne of Israel.

kinghaz wrote ad nausem:

"It is written “For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.” “And Lamech said unto his wives, Adah and Zillah, Hear my voice; ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: for I have slain a man to my wounding, and a young man to my hurt. If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.” “And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha: Where they crucified him, and two other with him, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst.” Here is the name of Jesus you are gathered with, “eat at Jezebel's table” “In the portion of Jezreel shall dogs eat the flesh of Jezebel:” Solomon wrote “My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother: Bind them continually upon thine heart, and tie them about thy neck.” Where do you wear the cross of jesus, “Then Jesus said unto them......."

________________________________

It's always entertaining when the "religious" use their scriptures to make their arguments assuming those scriptures have credibility with everyone else.

It is written by the magic peach tree of wisdom that not everyone will believe what is written by the magic peach tree of wisdom. In the name of the Sun, the Moon and the Holy peach pit. Amen

Jesus had something to say about praying in public:
[Matthrew 6:5]

"And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. "

But did the historic Jesus really say that about public prayer, Matt 6: 5-6????

Not according to many contemporary historic Jesus exegetes (e.g. http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf ).

It only appears in the NT once, in Matthew's gospel i.e a single attestation and appears at a late date i.e. 80-120 CE thereby failing the necessary history review for authentication.

Therefore, we have another example of the NT authors putting words in the mouth of the simple preacher man aka Jesus.

CCNL

The religious and learned of Jesus's day didn't like what He had to say either.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas "The Hallucinator" Baum,

And how do you know that considering such stories were contrived especially by the likes of John who created his own version of the son of god???

CCNL

I wrote, "The religious and learned of Jesus's day didn't like what He had to say either."

You replied, "And how do you know that considering such stories were contrived especially by the likes of John who created his own version of the son of god???"

Have you ever heard the saying, "The more things change the more they stay the same".

We are all spoken of in the bible, some times in more ways than one.

Don't worry CCNL, one day you will be glad that God came up with His Plan, which He came up with before creation.

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.