Southern Baptist Decline and God's Bottom Line

Religions grow and religions decline. This has nothing to do with truth. It has to do with popular fads. Religion is for people with no courage to face reality. Some prefer liturgical religions with beauty and grace. Others like the Southern Baptists prefer redneck culture. But they all decline with education and cultural advance; they all increase with fear and depression.

Southern Baptists will always have an audience of undereducated, culturally deprived Americans.

We live in the information age with easy access to the biggest library in the world: the internet. The times when people were completely uneducated and could easily be manipulated and intimidated by the church, are quickly fading.
I guess you can fool a lot of people for a long time but can't fool all forever. If you are selling an invisible product, sooner or later people smarten up and ask questions. Unfortunately religion cannot answer any questions unless we involve miracles and disregard science and natural laws. But then we get into the realm of the irrational and that's why more and more people see the light and turn to humanism instead of religion. Europe is way ahead of us in that department but we are catching up rapidly.

If, as you suggest Ratichn, challenges to courage, undereducation, and lack of culture are the seeds of success for the ecclesiastical, then conditions were never as auspicious as they are currently for renascent belief, with a worldwide depression, with the worst popular culture in history, and with continuous and ever increasing maledictions heaped upon the perceived ignorance of the age.

A lot of this is simply demographics. There were scores and scores of Baby Boomers who, after sobering up from the 60's, started having children and looking for something more. Numerically - there about half as many Gen-X'ers coming up behind. Churches are subject to the same forces as other institutions. Colleges are facing plummeting applications between now and 2015. Expect to hear about more small schools failing. The other issue is that once a church hooks someone - and gets the initial message across - that there is a God and that God does pay attention to us - what next? Great - God loves me, what now? Good clergy - the ones with growing churches - turn Christians into people who can return to the world and demonstrate God's love to others. We're bad at that. We do good things, but we're not good about giving God credit. We're also lousy apologists. When we get challenged on issues of faith, we're ill-prepared to defend our beliefs. Not because our Faith is fragile. It's stood for 2,000 years and faced worse times than these. But we've become lax in studying the key texts that define us. We look to the Bible for answers, and never realize we're asking the wrong questions.

Southern Baptist theology encourages hatred toward gays, Jews, and probably others.

And it encourages hatred based on ignorance, outright lies, and stupidity.

In the internet age it's hard to keep that system going.

Maybe the decline of the SBC membership lies in the fact that the members are tired of being used for political gain by church leadership with a political and financial agenda that diverges from serving the cause for Christ.

Christians have not forgotten how badly we were used by the SBC leadership and the republicans. There was no Jesus in any of the things SBC actually achieved with their political influence.

I think point #2 is the main one here - the SBC is considered to be an arm of the Republican party, so if you're not a Republican, why join up?

Also, the SBC has purged many of its members, so of course it will grow smaller, not larger.

The Church should never be in a popularity contest. The cross of Christ is offensive to many and the followers of the cross will be likewise offensive. Southern Baptist (of which I am one--full disclosure) have not compromised doctrine rooted in the inerrancy of Scripture for the sake of the culture. I am confident the SBC will continue to speak the truth in love to a culture in need of the redemptive message of Jesus Christ.

Southern Baptists have earned their demise. They have promoted racism, sexism, and the Republican Party when they should have been following Jesus.

This is not complicated.

"...among evangelicals surveyed, 35 percent said Muslims can go to heaven, 33 percent said Hindus can, and 26 percent said atheists can."

This is VERY surprising. Christian dogma, as I understand it, contradicts this. I wonder how members of other Christian denominations responded, especially Catholics.

crewsin,
you are right that the Church isn't in a popularity contest but the problem with SBC isn't their lack of popularity it is the lack of Love that is missing in their message. The SBC has used religion as a bat to beat down ANYONE who disagrees with their politics not with the teachings of Jesus.

How do you expect people to be attracted or even reached by the Word of the Living God when His messengers are perverting it with ulterior motives and mean-spirited delivery methods.

How do you explain Pat Robertson's support of Rudy Guiliani after decades of Robertson verbally beating down the people who embrace the same "non-Christians" views as Guiliani? Wouldn't you agree that this is hypocritical? And if so, how should a non-believer interpret this?

I Love Jesus and I always have. I can't support an organization that claims to be about Christ but is devoid of Love. The Apostle Paul says that a person can have all the spiritual gifts but if he lacks Love he has nothing! Jesus taught us that you can tell a tree by the fruit it bears. A good tree can not produce bad fruit and bad tree cannot produce good fruit. What kind of tree do you think the SBC and other politically driven church organization has been these last eight years? The SBC'c continued support of Iraq is telling!

And now for the real reasons why membership in the SBC is declining: (for those eyes that have not seen)

Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/Works_Cited

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology.

A church's success should be measured merely by how its members feel about themselves, their church, and society. The Society of Friends (Quakers) are one of the smallest denominations in the country, but it's been my experience that they are as a rule the most content and at-peace people I know, as well as being caring and integrated members of society.

Religion is not a marketing effort, nor a publicity-driven "industry". It is about people's spiritual needs and (if you so believe) souls.

I don't see the advantage of being a christian. For fifty years, I've watched the way my christian acquaintances and my non-christian acquaintances live their lives. While most like to pontificate on the way Jesus and their faith has impacted them, I don't see that reflected in their actions or how they live their life.

Hmmm? Measuring the extent and reach of the "God delusion" using metrics drawn from the realm of capitalism... my god man - you could be onto something.
Possible headlines? - SBC Belief Bubble Bursts;
Baptist Baptism Boom Underwater;
Brokeback's Backing Breaking?;
Redemption Recession;
etc etc

Actually, MWCOB, the Southern Baptist denomination is only about 150 years old, not 2,000 years old. Christianity is 2,000 years old; the early church split into the Greek Orthodox and the Roman Catholic churches during the 3rd century. Then, during the Reformation in the early 1500s, the two oldest mainline Protestant churches--Lutheran and Anglican--started. A hundred or so years later, the Presbyterians branched off, then 100 years after that, the Methodists, then after the Civil War, the Baptists (they weren't Southern then), the Cumberland Presbyterians, and the Church of Christ. Southern Baptists do not equal Christianity, even though some have tried to make the claim that they are the only true Christians. Whatever. My own prediction is that the SBC will end up dying in its current iteration, due to the offputting nature of its hatefulness toward non-whites and continued oppression of women. The demographics of the country are not in the SBC's favor.

"The largest and most prominent Southern Baptist congregation in America -- Rick Warren's Saddleback Church -- doesn't even use the word Baptist in its name."
... but Rick Warren's theology is no different than Jerry Falwell's or any other Southern Baptist preacher .. he is just more clever with this bigotry and religious arrogance!!

The world would be lot better off if it stopped believing religious mumbo jumbo and just chucked the whole idea. In our development as a species we should at least be able to govern ourselves rather than refer to some unknownable, non-existant being for moral guidance. The whole idea of religion is silly.

I was raised in a Southern Baptist culture that stressed reading and understanding and making up your own mind about the Bible. That church disappeared, and was replaced by one that was as "priest-ridden" as those I was taught to ignore.

Blind obedience is a hard product to sell.

Southern Baptist is to Protestantism what Wal Mart is to Asprey & Garrard

Wow, the Southern Baptist Church was a wonderfully positive thing in my life, although I currently am not a member. In my youth my local church taught me that Jesus loved me and everyone else in the world, and that He was willing to pay the price for my sin by dieing on the cross, for me. Through the church I learned my need to love everyone, without exception. I see that they now have outreach and ministries of love all over the world and to all races, and to all sinners everywhere. Praise the Lord. They are only one of many groups who are christian, and who teach that we can have hope and purpose through Christ.

"The whole conception of God is a conception derived from the ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men. When you hear people in church debasing themselves and saying that they are miserable sinners, and all the rest of it, it seems contemptible and not worthy of self-respecting human beings. We ought to stand up and look at the world frankly in the face. We ought to make the best we can of the world, and if it is not so good as we wish, after all it will still be better than what these others have made of it in all these ages. A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past, or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men." (W.N.C.p23) Bertrand Rusell

The Southern Baptists are down because the Republican Party is currently pretty unpopular. When there is a Republican party resurgence, the SB's fortunes will improve as well.

The numbers given in the past on evangelical affiliation have long been hyper-inflated. I learned about this some ten years ago when it was found that the Christian Coalition (among others) had adopted this as a tactic to give the appearance of a massive movement in the U.S.A. It made them feel powerful, and this was infectious, thereby emboldening the sheep. “Victories” were described as major achievements.

When visitors stopped by the Christian Coalition offices it was apparent that the people at the desk were merely looking busy, and a few other things amiss were noticed. That was the first I had personally been tipped off about this deception. As it turns out, evangelicals represent only seven percent of the U.S. population, and I think that includes fundamentalists (who are scriptural literalists). The total Christian (all Christian denominations) segment – those who adhere more closely to their church’s doctrines – is around 14 – 15 percent of the U.S.

Another problem has been with churches using their membership rolls to count members who had long ceased attendance, whether by moving on to another denomination, starting or joining a home-based Bible group, just moving away, quitting religion, or dying. Then, after this was considered and rolls were purged, it was discovered that younger people are not entering the church to replace the ones whose time on earth has ended.

Many reasons support the trend of declining church attendance. Youth are becoming more sophisticated. Many others are feeling unwelcome because of hypocrisy, anti-homosexual sentiments, and other behaviors of the insiders; many find that religion is outdated and that it has become too political; many see the insiders as sheltered, judgmental, authoritarian, and narrow. This is not entirely true in many instances, but the impressions have been made nevertheless.

There is a huge flow of Christians exiting out the back door, by one account at the rate of 6,000 per day, including approx. 1,000 evangelicals per day. Christians increase about 5,400 per day, which is slightly less than population growth, meaning each day the U.S. becomes less Christian. Meanwhile, some 20 million “intensely committed” evangelicals are heading out of established religion. This information comes from the churches, not outsiders.

More of this is connected to non-economic factors; people are just not finding what they want through religion anymore. I have noticed in the past few years that conservativism has become a very repulsive ideology to what appears to be a growing percentage of the population. There has long been those who have spoken unflattering words about devoutly religious people, but never so much as to seem like a war is going on against conservatives in general, with strategic assaults on the religious right. It is as though the culture wars have turned on the ones who created them.

“On religious issues there can be little or no compromise. There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being.

But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both.

I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in A, B, C, and D. Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me?

And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate.

I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of conservatism.”
Barry Goldwater

Puca: wrote, “…Barry Goldwater”

As I was reading your post I wondered if I was going to come across the line where he called them [expletive] extremists. Is that in your source?

I noticed he was saying what I believe a lot of moderate Republicans would like to (or are) saying now. His descendants even supported Barack Obama this year!

As an aside, Jimmy Carter broke from the Southern Baptists in 2000 because they were moving towards increasingly extreme conservativism.

Well now that people really need help they are cutting back, shouldn't they be geared up like they didn't now this coming I think not. shouldn't they be full steam ahead doors wide open. what's a matter theres no "PROFIT" in actually helping someone who has no $$$$$
I am sick to death of religious people and thier greater than thou I know the way crap!
They don't know anymore than what it says in the bible they just repeat what they think or what it means to them. when are people gonna wake up it is about the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ since when do you have to "PAY" for god?

The Christian church is not in decline it is in transformation. Much of the comments I have scanned over show a lack of understanding of congregational life. Modern Christianity is not a two lane highway but a collection of roads of belief more numerous and varied than the streets and freeways of Los Angeles. God has no copyright on the word Christian. All you have to do is say you're Christian, as 80 percent of Americans do, and you are. Some people in churches are very dedicated others are pew potatoes. The mix is varied and complex. Some of the brightest minds in America are Christians. The fact is the more science advances the more it supports large parts of the Bible. Getting steamed up and set against Christianity makes as much sense as getting steamed up about life itself. The subject is so large and varied, and both good and bad things happen from it. Take your choice. But understand that faith, again like life, is a messy subject. Not because of God's church. But because God choose to build the church around imperfect people. God has no other choice because that's the way we were created.

To Rusty3: I "feel 'ya", bro. My sentiments, exactly. b

The average person with any degree of intelligence, is starting to wake up to the fact that the Southern Baptists have basically been a Religion of Hate, Bigotry, Prejudice and mostly a bunch of shysters. I lived in Rome ,Ga for five years and basically there message of LOVE is, Praise the Lord Jesus and now pass me some rope so I can make Nooses.

The demise of the Southern Baptist Church and their theology of hate, intolerance and hypocrisy is actually good for mankind.

When I hear someone proclaim "I am a Christian", I immediately expect that person to be self-righteous, moralistic, xenophobic, narrow-minded and disdainful of anything non-white and non-heterosexual. They are also very quick to find scriptural justification for legally sanctioned lethal violence --from capital punishment to waging a war of choice in Iraq. But Jesus' teachings on peace-making and mercy and compassion seem totally invisible to them.

I now realize that it is not all Christian sects who are like that but mainly just the Southern Baptists. And that Christians who noisily trumpet "I am a Christian" for all to hear actually are lacking the humility that marked Jesus' life as described in the Bible. Sadly too, humility is not the only Jesusly (yes I just made that adjective up) trait that they lack.

The life span of bigotry masquerading as religion may be a million years, but it ultimately dies a slow death. When I hear Southern Baptists, all I hear is Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, intolerance, prejudice, and racism. My prayer is that they continue to lose membership. They are an ignorant and arrogant bunch.

Again, the SBC is losing membership because like all religions it is historically and theologically severely flawed.

Where I grew up churches were known for a combination of community and good works. My grandparents attended very different churches, but shared a sense of salvation, or at minimum personal redemption, through good works large and small. From them I learned to treat all people with respect and equality. Their philosophy of living drew people to join them and share their beliefs without the need to evangelize.

The modern Southern Baptist Church that I see is epitomized by Richard Land, a social climbing glad-hander who boasts of presidential access and is more inclined to seek wedge issues to divide us, elevate bigotry, apologize for torturers, and believe the role of government is to fund and promote his religion to the detriment of other Americans.

If the SBC wishes to be a political party, or the foot soldiers of the Republican Party, its future is at risk. If the SBC wishes to return to doing good works and respecting all people it will have done all the marketing it needs.

When the nation, as a whole, embraces the concept that being anti-Gay is as anti-American as being anti-Black, then the SBC will drop its' institutional pandering to homophobia. (How many churches, SBC, Mormon, etc. would not let blacks join until the last 2 or 3 decades?) Once you get to that point, the light will come on about equal legal rights (the right to not testify against a spouse in court proceedings, adoption rights), denial of tax benefits (social security pensions, inheritance), and the civil rights to not be discriminated against in employment and housing.
Churches can let in whomever they want, but secular rights under the Constitution should not be subject to ecclesiastical review.

The loss of religiosity (faith) in todays commodified, packaged and media driven church organizations is the reason people are not joining. The perception is that these "houses of worship" are about growing themselves and enriching the leaders.

Case in point:

John Avant, former vice president of evangelization at the mission board said "You can't have a vision that doesn't have a funded budget"

This quote is hilarious! Christ had a vision. Peter had a vision. Paul had a vision.

These guys have marketing plans!?!?! The gospel of Christ does not need a budget it requires faith and acceptance.

The weary, dreary religionists are flailing away once again and I'm lovin' it. Religion surely is the opiate of the masses, except, according to this news report, the masses seems to be dissipating. As far as I'm concerned, that's a very good thing. The less influence religion has, the better. It's evil at it's core; a scam of monstrous proportions.

As far as the Baptists' new-found belief that even atheists can go to their heaven, NO THANKS! I don't associate with such loonies here on Earth and certainly wouldn't want to be dealing with their crippling beliefs in some pie-in-the-sky bye-and bye.

Bye!

Hopefully, people are realizing the futility of their "god" beliefs and recognizing there's only MAN who controls his/her destiny and not some mythological supreme being.

Wow, the biggest scam business in the country isn't doing so well? That's the best news I've heard all year!

Although in recent times they have repudiated the idea, his particular group was originally founded to make sure the group stayed white. I suspect that a move to unite with other baptists -- imagine what it would say if they united with the National Baptists. That would say more about what some people call a post-racial era than any of the statistics that were mentioned.

Also despite the fact that one of the original appeals of Protestantism was private interpretation of the Bible. Catholicism was rejected because such matters were decreed from top down. Yet, I am told by a professor at a SBC seminary that people are fired for not conforming to the "company line." Professors do their own original theological research at their peril.

Finally the fact that they sold out to the Republicans when they were on the ascendancy seems to make it quite logical that their fate is to decline when the country reverses itself.

I believe the Catholic Church had a similar problem. When they were united with the workers, the poor, and the labor movement, they thrived because that is where most people were. in recent times, they have been uniting much more with the Conservatives, notice how their numbers in seminaries have also declined similar to the drop mentioned for the SBC. I suspect all religions could learn a lesson here.

I believe the Southern Baptist are taking a hit because during the Bush years they became more or appeared to become more exclusionary. Instead taking a soul as it is, as Jesus did, they want souls that are already somewhat Christian. If they want to win people back to the flock, they need to be more "Christ like" in the way in which they spread the gospel. Beating people with God's word is not what He intended. God gave mankind free will for a reason. Just like you want a spouse who loves you for who you are not because they are forced! The ultra conservatives who make up a large part of the Southern Baptist should consider this as they deliberate over how to increase the flock and spread the gospel. Amen.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one."
— George Bernard Shaw

Southern Baptists are not spreading the gospel.........they are marketing their version of what they think God's plan should be, with a slogan, a sound bite and a gimmick. And, there's no tolerance for those who don't follow "the law". Sound familiar?

"The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church."
— Ferdinand Magellan

As a Southern Baptist pastor told me, the Southern Baptist Convention has been taken over by a bunch of folks who don't know what Baptists are all about.

I like islamists as far
as religions go. They
go to a heaven where the
can screw celestial virgins !!

Queation:
Do christists believe in sex
after death ????

CSTATION wrote:

"The fact is the more science advances the more it supports large parts of the Bible." This is absolute rubbish - a statement made in FAITH not FACT.

Republicanism and The Southern Baptists have both become centers of a rural southern world view that fights the larger country and larger world because it doesn't feel comfortable with the freedoms and informalities of modern urban life, wants recognition from the larger society for its adherence to traditional values and doesn't get it, and harbors old resentments from earlier eras that nobody but them remember any more. It's a world view that will pass away now that it's passed it's high tide. There's a new south growing from immigration within and without which is erasing their nostalgic old rural south as they seek to preserve it, and Obama's success in the south shows its progress...

"That I am not a member of any Christian Church, is true; but I have never denied the truth of the Scriptures; and I have never spoken with intentional disrespect of religion in general, or of any denomination of Christians in particular" ---- Abraham Lincoln

"Christianity is the companion of liberty in all its conflicts - the cradle of its infancy, and the divine source of its claims" ---- Alexis Detocqueville

"The moral and religious system which Jesus Christ transmitted to us is the best the world has ever seen, or can see" ---- Benjamin Franklin

"The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds, that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other" ---- Alexis Detocqueville

What Franklin, Lincoln and Detocqueville did not know (for those eyes that have not seen)----

Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/Works_Cited

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology.

To try and define the causality of the SBC in a few words or in this arena is like like trying to describe cancer as simply a deformity of cells.

There is so much more to it. First, if one will go back, using the SBC annual reports as a source one will find that since 1950 there has been only a .3% increase in baptisms. We have seen very little actual growth. But the lack of growth has many factors. Change in culture is just one of many factors.

We as SBs need to unite under the original focus of missions to all. Yes our culture is changing and that will make growth more difficult. Yet, God is still in control and his plan will ocme about.

The Southern Baptist Church has a vocal and aggressive anit-gay agenda. It has put a taint on all of Protestantism, if not all of Christianity.

This has confused the entire focus and program of Christianity, in all the other denominations who are not as hateful.

This is mainly what Christians are known for today: homophobia.

And who is to blame for this?

Thank you very much, Southern Baptists.

If the Southern Baptist Convention is finally on the skids, which it appears to be, together with the brouhaha over the laughable Rick "Jerry Falwell" Warren, then this is indeed a wonderful day for civilized humanity.

The SBC tied themselves to the "voodoo economics" of the Republican Party. Now you're both paying the price for that mistake.

What was that line about sowing and reaping again???

As a Christian who does not belong to any sect, I am astounded at the level of hatred, rage and intolerance of the posters on this site opposed to the Southern Baptists, all based on their inability to comprehend that Southern Baptists do not share their supposed enlightened views, and therefore must be dismissed as stupid and easily led. The levels of stereotypical negative insults reveal the intolerance and hatred underlying Leftist views, which cannot comprehend that not everyone thinks the way they do. The impugning of evil motives to those who dare to not share their “superiority” reveals a dark, narrow minded point of view. It’s no wonder the Left cannot win elections unless they disguise themselves as “in the middle.” Who would want to join their ranks of infuriated attackers who cannot comprehend that others do not think the way they do? Their delusional prejudices could be reduced by actually interacting with others who do not think the way they do, but that may be difficult, since they do not believe in dialogue and tend to surround themselves with others who think alike, rather than practice the diversity and open-mindedness of engagement with the community practiced by Southern Baptists and other conservatives.

Religion is a business and is losing customers because folks are becoming more educated, and more skeptical than their ancestors - especially on the God question.
The notion of a skygod seems increasingly silly to many of us these days - in light of what evolution and 21st century science tell us about life and the universe.
God is the best our ancestors could come up with - when trying to figure out the world they found themselves in. It was not exactly a brilliant idea; it was the reaction of folk who had no knowledge, no information about anything, and childishly point at the sky and figure somebody must be up there moving those clouds around, looking down - watching over us...raining over us, letting the sunshine shine on us and the moon glow at night. A child would think like that. I'm sure I did too when I was maybe five years old.
But I grew up thank god; and say He's a hypothesis to some, a metaphor to most, and a reality only to the deluded.
So who needs churches?

If you think those against the Southern Baptist Church are intolerant and hateful, you should try looking at it from our perspective. Some of the most racist, homophobic, hateful, evil human beings who have ever walked the face of the Earth. All for money - at least the Taliban has conviction.

Dear David

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year 2009!

Best wishes
Soja

------------------------
Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

"I have examined all of the known superstitions of the world and I do not find in our superstitions of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all founded on fables and mythology. Christianity has made one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites."

--Thomas Jefferson

"The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."

--Abraham Lincoln

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

--Benjamin Franklin

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

--James Madison

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."

--John Adams

Dear carolinemiranda :
Frankly, I don't care if the SBC eats cockroaches as part of their cermoney, I just want all of their dogma out of the laws of the land. I believe morals and morality can be guided by reasonable tought not by belief in fairy tales. Religion is a scourge, regardless the denomination.

Mankind is so young compared to the Earth. We are but infants in the grand scheme of things. When we were first becoming sentient and aware of ourselves and able to communicate and think about things, we naturally started wondering about everything that we did not know. Back then, even the most simple thing like fire was not understood and feared. We needed some mechanism to cope with the vast amount of things we were frightened of and did not understand.

Enter religion. By attributing that which we did not understand to all powerful beings, we were able to start making sense of things. If we did not understand something, it was the work of the Gods. We grew as a species and our culture grew in complexity, branching off into many, mostly defined by geography. We mastered fire, stone, earth, metal, and eventually chemistry. Once we figured out how to create fire ourselves, it was less necessary to attribute fire to the Gods. Over time our science enabled us to make sense of things more and more. Religion evolved from polytheism to monotheism. We no longer needed many gods to explain things, one God would suffice. During the middle ages, astronomy blossomed and we became aware that there were other earth like bodies and that we were not the center of the universe. Between 1800 and now, science exponentially increased as our societies became increasingly complex and organized and we no longer had to devote the bulk of our time to simply trying to survive. We had time to think.

Science is not anti-religion. There are many religious scientists. What science does, and will continue to do, is shed light on things which we used to attribute to God. One major breakthrough was the discovery of bacteria. Once we realized that illness's were not a punishment from God and caused by tangible though minute things, we took another step towards freeing ourselves from the teet of religion. Science will continue to shed light on our universe and we will find less and less need for the security blanket of religion.

There are other uses of religion though. It helps to equalize people in our minds. If you're a peasant who knows nothing but toil, and your land lord lives high on the hog by exploiting and stealing from the people under him, you would naturally want some sort of justice. It's not fair! Since there were no laws to protect you, you had to turn to something else. Enter religion. The landlord who steals and exploits will get justice in the next world and the peasant who loves god will find everlasting happiness in the next world. It gave people hope and hope is as necessary for human survival as air, food, and water.

We are approaching the point in our evolution as a species were we will cast off our religious security blanket. I don't know when that will be. I don't know how it will work. It's just the natural progression of things.

Christianity is one of the biggest hoaxes to ever have been believed.

Speaking as a former member of a Southern Baptist church, I say good riddance to them. They're a divisive, elitist, and uncharitable sect that presents a false example of what Christ taught and how a Christian is to apply His teachings. There is no salvation in deception and theological snobbery.

Why do these WASHINGTON POST liberals hate Southern Baptists and Mormons and love homosexual ECUSA Bishops who advocate samesex acts as Holy Sacraments?

Why do homosexuals suck? Why do fleas bite? Why do dogs walk on their hindlegs?

"It is impossible to reason people out of affiliations they have not been reasoned into". Can't remember who said that but it basically sums up the continuing saga of organized religion for me.

The future of SBC: Christian Democratic Party.
Then, they can collect their money and indulge in politics upfront.

wturecki,

"It is impossible to reason people out of affiliations they have not been reasoned into". Can't remember who said that but it basically sums up the continuing saga of organized religion for me.

It appears that this quote is from George Will after searching the internet. He was talking about Obama voters but his quote is easily extended beyond that. I think your application of it to religion is perfect.

Two of the most misunderstood groups in the US are homosexuals and evangelical Christians. It would do well for both groups to talk more to each other, as Rick Warren has. Evangelicals would find that most homosexuals are not dressing as nuns parading down the street in garters and disrupting church services. Homosexuals will also be surprised that Evangelicals are not gay bashing loudmouths. It's the media that tends to report on the extreme fringes of both groups. In fact many would be surprised that Fred Phelps is not a Southern Baptist, but an independent group that the SBC has officially condemned. Also, on the 150-year anniversary of the SBC in 2005 their convention officially apologized for any history of racism in their past...something Bill Clinton, the Bushes, and no other president has been willing to do. So..let's be careful before we write off other groups before we know about them and have talked with them.

A believer without organized religion is like a fish without a bicycle.

The SBC has a history of promoting hate. People are finaly wising up that religion is suppose to be inclusive and loving, not focused on hate.

Posted on December 23, 2008 20:31

carolinemiranda :
As a Christian who does not belong to any sect, I am astounded at the level of hatred, rage and intolerance of the posters on this site opposed to the Southern Baptists, all based on their inability to comprehend that Southern Baptists do not share their supposed enlightened views, and therefore must be dismissed as stupid and easily led. The levels of stereotypical negative insults reveal the intolerance and hatred underlying Leftist views, which cannot comprehend that not everyone thinks the way they do. The impugning of evil motives to those who dare to not share their “superiority” reveals a dark, narrow minded point of view. It’s no wonder the Left cannot win elections unless they disguise themselves as “in the middle.” Who would want to join their ranks of infuriated attackers who cannot comprehend that others do not think the way they do? Their delusional prejudices could be reduced by actually interacting with others who do not think the way they do, but that may be difficult, since they do not believe in dialogue and tend to surround themselves with others who think alike, rather than practice the diversity and open-mindedness of engagement with the community practiced by Southern Baptists and other conservatives

Response: I think 20 years ago you would indeed have gotten the responses that are on this blog, and what a wonderful think this trend is! I am a non believer who has a happy home life, great kids and good professional prospects and I'll put up my moral code against anyone. But I don't subscribe to any bronze age religion and I get highly offended when Southern Baptists rant about how superior they are (afterall, if they are right, I will burn in hell!) when a great many of them are singularly unappealing as people. For years organized religion has demanded we all give it tax breaks, don't ask too many questions of it, let it corrupt our schools with science drivel and push out any other moral code. I think I speak for a growing block of people when I say "enough!"

Regardless how many think whoever will go to heaven, the reality is that everyone living today is going to end up just like all who lived before - with dead remains in a box below or above the ground, or in some other physical location on earth. Paraphrasing one of our great modern non-believer realists, it's not hard for a person to understand he/she didn't exist in say the 1500s, why then believe he/she will exist in say the 2300s? Yes, I know, because the Bible tells us so.

Jclark3

Absolutely excellent post.

seattle_wa:

A believer without organized religion is like a fish without a bicycle.
------------------

I love it!! Also, like a bird without a cell phone.

DaTourist Author Profile Page:

Why do these WASHINGTON POST liberals hate Southern Baptists and Mormons and love homosexual ECUSA Bishops who advocate samesex acts as Holy Sacraments?

Why do homosexuals suck? Why do fleas bite? Why do dogs walk on their hindlegs?
####################################

Why do dogs walk on their hindlegs? I don't know - go ask your mother.

Many people have said that the decline in church membership is due to so many thinks, among them the fact that "young people are increasingly becoming more and more sophisticated."
Ah, there lies the rub, for young people in today's society are not becoming more sophisticated as a whole, but are becoming more attuned to the spiritual side of life, and not relating to a single belief system, such as Christianity.
I am no longer a young person, yet I think and act as a spiritual being in many ways; among them the fact that I am "CaBuSuJew!"
For those of the uninitiated, this means, Catholic, Buddhist, Sufi, and Jewish. I do not claim to adhere to all tenets of each faith, but look for what is common to all and take the best of each and "practice," my faith as I see it, the best way I can.
Tolerance and LOVE is among the most common of all
faiths.
"Profits," those who preach the Good News, for the
sole purpose of seeing their name on the marquee, having more than their congregants, better homes, "for we represent the Gospel," are among the worst
offenders to me, the kind that steal from the poor
and give to themselves. Most of these kind of preachers are out for the "profit," motive and do not care one whit, about the state of a person's life, whether they have had enough to eat, a place out of the rain to sleep and their children are taken care of so that these young people can grow up to their full potential.
I am ashamed that I once claimed to be this type of person, who was out for nothing more than the most I could get for the least amount of work.
Now, on the other hand, it is high time we, spiritual people took matters into our own hands and demanded of those who put themselves on pedestals, the responsibility of living that which they preach. No more free rides for those who wish political power, no more free rides for those who wish "religious authority."
We are the living embodiment of the universe, we must act as if we are all one, we cannot see the seperateness of each of us, but we must look to those who share a vision, not a funded budget, of the world as one.
Given the next few years, I truly believe that there will a dramatic and seismological shift in the attitudes towards those who speak of the oneness of life, the oneness of being, that is inherent in us all and choose a path that will enlighten us as to the power of LOVE.
For those who choose to stand their ground, and make themselves insular and xenophobic in regards to the orthodoxy of their faith, they will be left in the dust heap of change and will be as though they did not exist. For we all must change,
the only thing that stays the same in life is change. Nothing stays the same, we will grow and mature as a species and see the wisdom of inner peace and outer tolerance and learn that there is no difference between us.

carolinemiranda :
As a Christian who does not belong to any sect, I am astounded at the level of hatred, rage and intolerance of the posters on this site opposed to the Southern Baptists, all based on their inability to comprehend that Southern Baptists do not share their supposed enlightened views, and therefore must be dismissed as stupid and easily led. The levels of stereotypical negative insults reveal the intolerance and hatred underlying Leftist views, which cannot comprehend that not everyone thinks the way they do. The impugning of evil motives to those who dare to not share their “superiority” reveals a dark, narrow minded point of view. It’s no wonder the Left cannot win elections unless they disguise themselves as “in the middle.” Who would want to join their ranks of infuriated attackers who cannot comprehend that others do not think the way they do? Their delusional prejudices could be reduced by actually interacting with others who do not think the way they do, but that may be difficult, since they do not believe in dialogue and tend to surround themselves with others who think alike, rather than practice the diversity and open-mindedness of engagement with the community practiced by Southern Baptists and other conservatives.

* * * * *

You're actually serious. You penned that screed without any hint of irony. I'm actually kind of in awe.

Simply saying that you disagree with a person (or a group) isn't "hatred, rage and intolerance." Disagreeing with the political goals of a church (and yes, the SBC has distinct political goals) isn't intolerance. Non-belief isn't intolerance. The VAST majority of atheists don't want believers to stop believing, at least not in the way that believers want us to start believing. We just want you to keep your beliefs out of our government and your rules out of our lives.

And you're rather quick to cast out aspersions like atheists "cannot comprehend that not everyone thinks the way they do" while ignoring the fact that the very same sentence could be written about Christians and Southern Baptists in particular. Your god works for you. Fine. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to comprehend that it doesn't work for me.

And let's try this on for size:

"The impugning of evil motives to those who dare to not share their “superiority” reveals a dark, narrow minded point of view. It’s no wonder the XXXXX cannot win elections unless they disguise themselves as “in the middle.” Who would want to join their ranks of infuriated attackers who cannot comprehend that others do not think the way they do? Their delusional prejudices could be reduced by actually interacting with others who do not think the way they do, but that may be difficult, since they do not believe in dialogue and tend to surround themselves with others who think alike..."

I could just as easily replace XXXXX with 'Right' instead of Left. If you don't think that Conservative believe that they're superior, listen to them when they spit that dreaded word 'Liberal' out of their mouths.

Don't tell me that 'The Left' won by claiming to be the middle. 'The Left' won because people saw exactly where 'The Right' will lead them.

You want to discuss "infuriated attackers?" McCain/Palin rallies were certainly rather angry. Rush Limbaugh, figure head of all things Conservative is nothing if not an infuriated attacker.

The left is delusional? WMD in Iraq. We'll Be Greeted As Liberators. Mission Accomplished. Abstinence Only. Trickle Down Economics. A functional missile shield. Shall I go on?

Which brings us to my favorite part of your screed:

"...rather than practice the diversity and open-mindedness of engagement with the community practiced by Southern Baptists and other conservatives."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=94226932

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/politicalcartoons/ig/Political-Cartoons/Diversity.htm

And did you know that in 1968 only one in ten Southern Baptists would even admit black members?

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Baptists#Membership]

And the SBC didn't bother to admit they were wrong to split from the larger Baptists tradition in order to defend white supremacy until 1995!

Feel free to continue to post this drivel. It only reinforces the reasons why the SBC is losing in the marketplace of ideas.

Both far sides of this issue don't understand people such as myself who while I don't belong to any organized religion (anymore), I do feel a connection to a higher power. And I personally don't care what people believe or don't believe, but more about how they treat others. I think it's sad that those people on either side have to be critical of the other... How about live and let live?

There is an open joke among my friends that says that Satan was kicked out of heaven and landed in the choir stand.

Organized religion has caused more war and death than any other instigation of confrontation. Besides that, organized religion has become devisive and intolerent.

Was it not Jesus, himself, that lent a helping hand to the prostitute being attacked by an angry mob.

I think this reduction will give this group a long needed reality check.

I haven't belonged to an organized religion in over 10 years. And I feel more spiritual today than ever before. I don't need a preacher to instruct me on how to treat others as I would like to be treated.

Southern Baptists - Evangelicals too - have spent the past few years creating a religious dogma around certain core political and religious beliefs and then crucifying anyone who does not fit their self made mold.

As a quasi religious/political organization, they have set themselves up as arbitrators of what's right and wrong, based on their interpretation of the Bible (as though that's the only religious book around).

These so called religious people think that if you don't follow their twisted brand of Christianity, you don't belong in this country.

They fervently believe everyone should be just like they are. They spend a lot of time braying from their mega-chirch pulpits about their right of emminet domain regarding the faithof Americans.

I wish they'd stop using their faith as a cudgel for Christ. If we won't voluntarily join with your faith, they try to use their faith to beat us into submission. Is that acting Christ-like?

Hardly.

It’s time for Christian America(especially the Southern Baptists and conservative Evangelicals) to come to grips with one very important point – you aren't the only game in town.

People of all faiths deserve to have their religious festivals honored in the same way yours has been for so many years. I, as a non-Christian,
do not object to you having a Nativity scene on some piece of public land. All I ask is to have the same courtesy extended to my faith.

This time of year I walk around all day saying Merry Christmas. I'm happy to celebrate your religious festival with you.

Just stop telling me my faith is irrelevant. Stop saying this is a Christian only nation.

It isn't.

It is time for Southern Baptists, Evangelicals and the rest of Christian America to show my faith the same respect I show to theirs.

Everyone say this real fast:

He's-a-comin-in-a-Hon-da...
He's-a-comin-in-a-Nis-san..

Congratulations, you now speak tongues.

What is the mission of the SBC when the emphasis is on "bottom line", "marketing strategy", and a "funded vision"? As I recall Jesus drove the moneychangers from the temple to focus on the business of worship. Now there seems to be a growing number of high priests in the temples who have become more and more wealthy and need the masses to support their lifestyles. Perhaps the time has come for the cleansing of the temple.

The answer to the riddle of why Southern Baptist membership is declining is simple: bigoted, ignorant nonsense doesn't last forever.
Kinda hopeful, no?

A lot of good comments here. Any discussion about religion and spirituality is for the good. Too bad about the Baptist being the modern day Pharisee. Praying in public and not in the closet so as to look "holy" and superior is the name of the game for these hypocrites.

However there must be some good that these Southern Baptists do. For the likes of me I don't know what. They certainly were preaching that blacks were sinful and inferior creatures by design when I was a kid living in the south.

However be that as it may religion has done a lot of good in the world and we must recognize that it has done lot of evil also. Being a human institution it has it's flaws.

If your idea is good enough. You don't have to push it, or overreact when it's criticized.

Apparently the southern baptist flavor isn't so great. Needs pushing.

Who would have guessed spreading hate (towards gays) wouldn't be a good long term recruitment tool?

You all seem to be slamming the SBC.
Do you pleasure in doing that? Is that a Christ-like attitude? I think not.

Maybe they are good, and/or maybe they have issues, but they are still children of god.
I have heard stories about them, but I don’t take credence in them or proliferate them unless I know them as a fact (investigated it), and even at that I usually don’t comment.

A lot of you talk about what a Christian faith should be, how it should act, and if it did it would grow. Did you know there is one that fits all your rules and, as a result, is one of the fastest growing faiths in the U.S. and the world?

You should check it out sometime. It’s called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Give it some serious investigation. You’ll be pleasantly surprised in what you find.

Mark

If evangelicals want to return to their roots, they should look toward John Wesley. Wesley went out to the jails, poorhouses, brothels, and bars of his day, spreading a message of hope.

The least intelligent among us, screaming that only they had the answers, just got stupid and people peeled away.

The nexes came--and it may have destroyed us because of our silly, dispicable president--

wanted to be a WAR PRESIDENT, so he could be important. And the Jewish neocons believed they were positioned (in US agencies, you know their names) to start the big push out into zionism. A horrid combination. We are lucky to have stopped it, maybe.

We read Ohlmert and Netanyahu are meeting either to bomb Iran or invade and demolish the Gaza strip, right away. Before their "war president" is gone. It is abominable history.

The American public was sleeping. The election, the rall of the stock market and good ole Bernie
Madoff may have alerted us all. Saved us all.

To hell with the sobaps.

whistling (Pig):

Always doubted pigs could whistle, but again and again, you prove me wrong.

Idolatry of The Book can carry you only so far in this country. The Southern Baptist leadership over the last thirty years has also forgotten that honor is without profit in this society. The went for profit anyway.

Whistling:

Pray tell, what asylum did you escape from? The Home for Bewildered Bigots?

If you are really demented enough to believe that that slime bag Madoff 'saved us all', then boy, do I have a deal for you on beachfront property in Nebraska. Cash only, no checks.

This trend is common among many faiths. The CUNY ARIS survey and a more recent Pew Survey have found that many faiths are in decline. In the U.S. the Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Jewish, and Congregational churches are in decline. The LDS Church (Mormons) have a growth rate of zero in spite of a standing missionary force of 50,000 and the expenditure of millions every year. They lose slightly more members every year than they manage to bring into their faith.

The more charismatic Christian faiths and the mega-churches are growing at a rapid rate as is the group termed the "unchurched" or those with no religion. This group gains more members every year than the total membership of the Jewish and Mormon faiths combined.

The Old Testament, Torah, Tanakh, and Book of Mormon are basically defunct. It is obvious to even the casual reader that these texts are largely or entirely fiction and poor fiction at that. The Old Testament, Torah, and Tanakh contain nothing of moral value and are obviously the works of a barbaric, primitive people with a violent, bigoted agenda. If one wishes to study how cults form these texts are perfect examples as the behaviors of many believers reveal.

Our societies are in constant flux and I for one hope that they trend away from the intolerant religions of the past continues. It is centuries past time for a change.

In response to poster VOLKMARE's assertion that mormonism "fits all your rules" - see
the existing discussion (pro & con) about mormonism on this WaPo blog:

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2007/05/mormonism/comments.html

The faith-affirming proclamation: "...{mormonism} is one of the fastest growing faiths in the U.S. and the world" is completely demolished in the previous reference (search for "harvest"). Mormon growth rates have been falling for two decades.

The implication that mormonism is Christian should give a thoughtful man pause:

1. Is building a multi-billion dollar shopping mall (in Salt Lake City) the act of a _legitimate_ church of any persuasion?
2. How many "Christian" faiths own _any_ cattle ranches, let alone one that is 450 square miles: Deseret Ranch, Orlando, Florida

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/custom/growth/orl-deseret1208oct13,0,4777515.story

Tomorrow, do we celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ, cowboy?

Thanks for telling the truth Whistler.
Surely, now that we have testimony from George Tenet before the Senate confirming that Bush ordered the entire national intelligence force to join in lying to Congress about the unreliable source of WMD stories (Curveball), everyone now admits that George KNEW he was lying in order to start a war.
And that is a war crime.
So what if the barbaric cultists among us are dwindling?
Let them rant!

Jeez, Mary, and Uncle Joe!!! Holy Moly!!!

Now, we've got not one but two whistling pigs.

Whistling and abiogenesis35

Well, walk me on water and get me them snakes!! Holy Moly!!!

Abiogenesis couldn't have read the Torah or he wouldn't be able to claim that it has nothing of moral value. Tell that to the Civil rights Movement, whose Martin Luther King was inspired by the Prophets. Yes, there's much that is barbaric in the Torah, emerging as it did from a tribal society, but anyone with objectivity can see the humanitarianism there, the concern for the poor, for widows, for orphans, the calls to do justice, the love for one's neighbor. These are the jewels that last, not the dated dross worth forgetting. It's all in the text, available for any careful reader--as opposed to a blinkered bigot--to see.

Well hello Farnazz. Do you care to articulate your concerns or are you going to just engage in meaningless ad hominem attacks. As it stands now it appears you do not have a case. Those with solid rebuttals present their points those without do exactly what you just did.

I believe that official church membership may be in decline but spirituality and faith are increasing exponentially.

abiogenesis35:

Not ad hominem, merely, a conclusion drawn from observation.

LevRaphael. I have read the Torah many times. Below are a very few direct quotes from the Torah you may wish to consider. If you are going to counter this please provide direct quotes. Your disconnected commentary is meaningless in the face of the actual words in the Torah.

Shemot 23: 23 For Mine angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Canaanite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; and I will cut them off.

23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their doings; but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and break in pieces their pillars.

Shemot 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you a holy day, a sabbath of solemn rest to HaShem; whosoever doeth any work therein shall be put to death.

Vayikra 20: 9 For whatsoever man there be that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

20:13 And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

I find your post laughable: "...anyone with objectivity can see the humanitarianism there, the concern for the poor, for widows, for orphans, the calls to do justice, the love for one's neighbor." Since when is butchering men, women, and children the humanitarian thing to do and how does this show "love for one's neighbor."

Farnazz

Once again you provide nothing but a smoke screen. Here is a good starting place from the Nikzor Project:

"Description of Ad Hominem

Translated from Latin to English, "Ad Hominem" means "against the man" or "against the person."

An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument.

Typically, this fallacy involves two steps. First, an attack against the character of person making the claim, her circumstances, or her actions is made (or the character, circumstances, or actions of the person reporting the claim).

Second, this attack is taken to be evidence against the claim or argument the person in question is making (or presenting)."

The predominance of anti-religious invective in these posts might cause the editors to reassess their objectives in providing this forum. David Waters might provide useful commentary on a variety of topics but religion does not appear to be one of them. Surely the ebb and flow of membership in Southern Baptist churches is primarily a concern of the SBC not of sneering journalists who do not wish them well. Missionary activity has long been and remains a priority for the Southern Baptists. The Episcopalians, for example, whose contemporary emphasis seems to be the invention of ecclesiastical novelties, number less that the population of greater Atlanta.

abiogenesis35:

One stupid turn deserves another:

big·ot: \ˈbi-gət\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
French, hypocrite, bigot
Date:
1660

: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices ; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
— big·ot·ed Listen to the pronunciation of bigoted \-gə-təd\ adjective
— big·ot·ed·ly adverb

for JamesCurrin:
"ecclesiastical novelties" (chuckle)

I _do_ enjoy that phrase - will you oblige with an example or two?

"number less that {sic} the population of greater Atlanta"

But surely, Jim, we cannot equate membership size & growth with spirituality. Are Christian Scientists (whose church is in semi-stagnation) somehow less spiritual, less authentic than the members of the latest mega-church extravaganza?

I liked SBC better when they were just a phone company. Or Seattle's Best Coffee. Why'd they have to go and get religion. Islam is growing among young people in the middle east as a response to repressive governments. If Bush and Cheney had free reign, they might have improved SBC recruitment.

To FREEDOMRAWKS

You may be right that some people attributed disease to God, but it was Jesus who when asked "who sinned, this man or his parents" answered this question for us even before the microscope allowed us insight into diseases.

As for those who wonder why people argue these points, it is not so much when people believe or worship differently, but when they align themselves to a political party and imply that that is how Christians act when many of us who are Christians find that offensive. If they said "this is how Southern Baptists think/behave/hatever", that would be one thing. But I have heard claims that somehow it is Christian to be against raising taxes (Hmm, where does "render unto Caesar" come in?), or call those who want peace traitors (what about "blessed are the peacemakers), or imply that somehow Christians favor war and the death penalty (as opposed to turning the other cheek and swords into plows). Then what happens is a lot of people who do not know much bout real Christianity put it down because they associate it with right wing politics that have NOTHING to do with Christianity but give Christianity a bum rap.

Good riddance... the church started to support slavery and has been on the wrong side of civil rights ever since. Who wants to be associated with bigots?

As a recovering Southern Baptist who was summarily "ex-communicated" for being gay and had my young life destroyed by their bigotry, I am heartened that true God-loving Americans are at long last turning away from this self-destructive form of radical religious extremism here at home. The parallels between many American Southern Baptist and Middle Eastern Muslim fundamentalists are too long to list. But one need look no further than their shared beliefs that they alone are eternally right, and that whoever does not do as they are told by them is going to hell, or worse yet, will suffer greatly in this life at their hands as a result of choosing a different path to walk with God. I have prayed for decades that the day would come when their rank and file would naturally fall away and reveal the naked truth about the power-hungry Bible brokers behind this regressive social movement. Slick Rick Warren is at his core no different. He's just smooth enough to speak in a new Christian code language that plainly equates people like me with humanity's worst. Southern Baptists have completely co-opted corporate culture and have been actively trying to high-jack our democracy for decades with their revisionist concepts of America being exclusively a "Christian nation," when any amateur historian knows that nothing could be further from the truth. Our forefathers and mothers moved here precisely to get away from their brand of pervasive social oppression in the name of religion. And I pray that one day even our Southern Baptist brothers and sisters may finally see that we are all children of the same living GOD--brown, white, gay, straight or otherwise.

Farnazz

Like I said it is obvious that you do not have anything of substance to use in defense of your position. How are any of my posts bigoted? I merely quoted the Torah. If what I posted is bigoted then your problem is with the Torah. I must agree with you the Torah is VERY bigoted.

Ha. The Southern Baptists once counted their gains, and the losses in other denominations, to prove that God wanted everybody to be in the conservative wing of the Republican Party (which the Baptists pretty much became). Now what?

As a lifelong Baptist, I quit supporting the SBC when they switched from Chrisianity to politics. Some of their leaders are Republican Party activists. Still, the majority of SDC members are good Christians and had no part in the transition to political activism.

I called Focus on the family to find out what is an evangelical. I talked to four different people and none knew what it is. They called me back a day and half later to tell me to call christian program and they would tell me. It is no wonder then that 52% believe that there are others way to heaven than through Jesus.

Religion has done more to hurt the gospel than anything else I know. What religion does is draw people to the building and not to Christ. It draws people to the pastor and not to the bible. It allows members to go to heaven by attending church instead of being the church. It creates division.

Jesus said" I am the way, the truth, and the light and no man come unto the Father except by me". Jesus said" unless you believe in me you will die in your sins and where I am you cannot come". To be a christian is to believe in Jesus -obey His command - and trust God.

It is not the SBC that is only against sin; it is the bible also. To ask a christian to accept sin that the scriptures clearly teach is wrong is to ask them to deny the faith. Jesus came to save all that would believe from eternal damnation; and because you do not believe does not make it any less so.

abiogenesis35:

Barbarity:
"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)

Cf. Relevant verses in Mark, Luke, et al.

FYI: The web site from which you took this King James translation of Tanakh stuck what they could then find on the web by way of English translation.

To say it is inaccurate is to say the least. There is no decent English translations among Christian "OTs" The best English translation, IMO, is the Steinsaltz.

That aside, the Tanakh isn't Jewish "scriptures."
Minimally, Jewish "scriptures" comprise the Tanakh and Talmud. The Cs wrestd, thieved, stole, expropriated, misread another people's text.

Per Edward Said, thieving another people's culture is the sine qua non of imperialism.

Many Catholic and Christian theologians recognize the need for ridding the "NT" (sic) of its historical inaccuracies, lies, and for cleansing the "NT" (sic), i.e., eliminating its immorality and racism, among them Rosemary Reuther, Rev. John Haynes, and, most recently (and hearteningly), twelve Orthodox Christian clergy.

Please do not take this as an invitation to chat with me.

Kudos to GARAK for the posts relative to the quotes of our forefathers. I relish the day when all mankind repudiates the amalgamation of all legend, myth and folklore now known as "organized religion."
I encourage the declining members of the SBC, all other Christians and non-Christians to contemplate deeply the undertone of intolerance and hatred that their current practice religion preaches...

Sorry to have to play the role of a pedant, but someone with the nom de blog of "farmazz" has completely misrepresented the meaning of the "ad hominem" fallacy. It does not mean "against" the man, it means "to" the man, that is, it is an argument addressed to the assumed prejudices, not to the disinterested reason, of whomever is the object of persuasion. It has nothing whatever to do with attacking someone's character. I am well aware that I am perhaps the last person living who understands this distinction. but one can but try.

Some blogger named JamesCurrin who has presumed to edify me on the meaning of ad hominem has evidently confused me with someone else. I neither defined the term nor introduced it on this thread.

Hate thy neighbor? Feeling a little guilty about it? Then I've got the church for you.

For the edification of JamesCurrin:

"of whomever is the object of persuasion."

When one finds oneself writing a sentence in which a relative pronoun is both the object of a preposition and the subject of a verb, one is to use the subjective case. In the specimen quoted above, the author should have written "whoever...."

To JamesCurrin: It is likely that you consider yourself the last person to understand the pretended distinctions of "ad hominem" because your understanding is simply not the correct understanding of the "argumentum ad hominem" fallacy. Without saying more, the following entry in Wikipedia conforms to what my university logic coursebook taught. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

To Farnazz or whomever: I take his point. I was unsure of which case to use and made a hasty decision. In mitigation, may I say that my high school burned to the ground during my sophomore year and that my further instruction in English grammar was neglected.

JamesCurrin:

Whatever. Is there a point to any of this?

To DCLawyer3: By invoking Wikipedia, you are arguing from authority. I can't say that this is a logical fallacy nor can I render it into Latin, but it is a weak argument. I can play the same game by suggesting that you consult Fowler's "Modern English Usage" under "Technical Terms".

The problem with a evangelicals is they follow the teachings of Paul, rather than the teachings of Christ. They also blend the Old and New Testaments together.

Christ's teachings were beautiful. It would be nice if religions got their egos and human faults out of churches and just focused on Christ's message of how we can be loving, non-judgment and graceful. (I don't believe Paul reflects these Christian traits in all his writings.)

Merry Christmas!

They left out one:

4. The Southern Baptists have moved so far away from the teachings of Christ that even their loyal followers have begun to notice.

I have no sympathy for the Southern Baptist Convention. About ten years ago my elderly parents were conned into investing their life savings in the Baptist Foundation of Arizona, a ponzi scheme that freely used local Southern Baptist churches as a platform for selling their false promises: high investment returns and an assurance that a portion of the money would be used for a good cause. Along with 13,000 other, mostly elderly, Arizonans my parents lost just about everything. My dad is haunted to this day by the experience. Where was the Southern Baptist Convention in all of this? They certainly did not seem to have any problem allowing churches to be used as houses of finance. And once the scandal was uncovered, they slithered away, without even acknowledging one iota of blame. The Southern Baptists love to shout about Jesus and his love. Where was their love in the midst of this scandal? These "good Christians" do nothing quietly so far as I can see, other than deflect blame for ruining lives.

This is great news -- almost makes me believe there is a God. Happy holidays, everybody.

The Constant Weader at www.RealityChex.com

"Don We Now Our Gay Apparel....."
The simple arguments against homosexuality are three: 1. The Natural Order: The penis and vagina seem to fit hand in glove. Yes, we are talking "anatomy is destiny" kind of stuff. Oddly, homosexual partners tend to take on "male" and "female" roles. Are you not by this apparent need declaring heterosexuality the norm? 2. The Philosophical Problem: Nihilism. A belief or practice that leads to ultimate destruction is usually not healthy. Detecting a philosophy with tenants of nihilism can sometimes only be discovered by taking it to its logical conclusion. If homosexuality is good then its ultimate embrace should not destroy the human family. 3. The Theological Argument. Do not dance around this issue. The Bible obviously condemns homosexuality. It is an issue of authority not interpretation. I have more respect for the person who openly states they don't believe or accept it over some convoluted explanation of interpretation. Anyway, have fun dissecting these three arguments (not me).

Oops, I meant "tenets" not "tenants" in my post. I am sure it had to do with the Washington Post and Watergate. You know, renting a room at the hotel or something like that...... Also, I bring the gay issue up in this blog subject because some of you are blaming the decline of Southern Baptist with their views on cultural issues, i.e., Rick Warren, etc. I am not sure that matter is in fact the reason for decline.

A great, and relevant bumper sticker:
'GOD, IT'S NOT YOU I DISLIKE - IT'S YOUR FLOCK'

I thought rather than going out and haranguing people to join, people were supposed to go about living their lives in such a manner that others were intrigued enough to make inquires and then join. I didn't realize that there was a marketing plan.

Faith and fervor, are they now trademarks? Are we allowed to use them still, or are they they now exclusively for the $BC?

Is it part of the mi$$ion $tatement too?

Skowronek, you wrote,

"I thought rather than going out and haranguing people to join, people were supposed to go about living their lives in such a manner that others were intrigued enough to make inquires and then join. I didn't realize that there was a marketing plan."

ME: And you are exactly right, there should NEVER be a marketing plan. The idea is to walk the walk always, and talk the talk only when asked. Here are two quotations that explain this:

Preach the Gospel every day of your life, but use words only when necessary.
- St Francis

If you Christians would live like your Christ instead of only talking about him, then everybody would want to be Christian
- Gandhi

Your first point is the number one reason why we need greater evangelization. The futile notion that man can create his own way to God is flawed.

Yes the SBC has moved far to the right of even sound biblical doctrine, namely the requirements it puts on missionaries that amount to a doctrine of demons.

But the Gospel is going forth. The greatest reason the SBC is shrinking is because of its un-biblical stance on the baptism in the Holy Ghost. Christianity is continuing to spread as it will until the return of Christ.

Like the Methodists before them, those that refuse to follow what God is doing on the earth will become marginalized until they are but a precursor to what is happening today.

To say that SBC is not appealling and in decline is the understatement of the century.

It's Regrettable thou to speak of religion in market terms...product...market..

Edsupha:

I was horrified to read your post about the Southern Baptist ponzi scheme, a ponzi scheme run by ministers?

Funny thing is I couldn't recall having read about it in the New York Times, WaPo or anywhere else. I used google and learned that it took seven years (7) for a prosecution to take place.

http://exchristian.net/2/2006/10/southern-baptist-foundation-scheme-in.html

I can't recall any OnFaith Protestants addressing this matter, which unlike the Madoff scheme, involved people using their religion to steal. Odd that it was never addressed.

These Baptists stole from 11,000 innocent people. Did they ever pay back anything?

All the money spent towards the Southern Baptist Convention's political marketing would be much better spend on higher education and teaching critical thinking skills. A populace equipped to critically evaluate issues is more likely to see through the theo-political redherrings perpetuated each election cycle by these types of organizations.

Hi Farnaz, Edgupha,

I did a search to find info on the Arizona Baptists' ponzi scheme and found a lot of sites. Farnaz, I agree it's strange that OnFaith didn't deal with this disgusting crime since unlike the Madoff scheme, which for God knows what racist reason, OnFaith did deal with, OnFaith ignored these Baptist defrauders, who were defrauding in the name of their religion.

Like Madoff stole mainly from Jews, the Baptists' stole mainly from their co-religionists. However, according to WaPo and other sources (see search results), the Christians are ponzi-ing away, and I'm not talking about individuals, but of organizations, Churches. HEY, ON FAITH, WHAT DO YOU SAY?

aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?query=arizona+baptist+church+fraud&s_it=spelling

Well, what do you know. Here's another Protestant ponzi.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/26/nyregion/26ponzi.html?ref=nyregion

Farnazz

Ad hominem tu quoque in terms of the quotes you provide. Also you state: "That aside, the Tanakh isn't Jewish "scriptures."
Minimally, Jewish "scriptures" comprise the Tanakh and Talmud." Your statement completely contradicts itself in stating that the Tanakh is not Jewish scripture and then stating that it is. Regardless of whether one uses the Torah, Tanakh, or the Talmud there is no redemption for your case because the tone of all of these texts is identical.

I am an agnostic today in terms of a supreme being and an atheist in terms of the god of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity precisely because I have read these texts many times and studied them in depth. These are not good books, they do not teach anything that can be termed moral, and the texts themselves are the best indication that they are the work of bigoted, sadistic, males.

As another case in point to my original contention:

Reading through the Torah is always a disgusting lesson in human depravity. I always have a mixed feeling of mild amusement and nausea when people try to defend the "moral code" and the "loving god" of the Torah. Uhhhh...suuurrrre...that is rich. The few short passages I originally went to this morning resulted in what is usually the case in the Torah. The passages before and after the problematic verses are just as demented. Here is the small example from this morning.
Harlots to be burned:

Vayikra 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the harlot, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

Interracial couples to be executed and 24,000 people were killed by god (Yahweh) because of the marriage. More would have died but the death of the couple and the 24,000 appeased god (Yahweh). Marrying anyone outside of the chosen race of Israel is a capital offense:

Bamidbar 25: 6 And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, while they were weeping at the door of the tent of meeting.

7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from the midst of the congregation, and took a spear in his hand.

8 And he went after the man of Israel into the chamber, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.

9 And those that died by the plague were twenty and four thousand.

Because of the interracial marriage god (Yahweh) orders the genocide of the Midianites:

Bamidbar 25:14 Now the name of the man of Israel that was slain, who was slain with the Midianitish woman, was Zimri, the son of Salu, a prince of a fathers' house among the Simeonites.

15 And the name of the Midianitish woman that was slain was Cozbi, the daughter of Zur; he was head of the people of a fathers' house in Midian.

16 And HaShem spoke unto Moses, saying:

17 'Harass the Midianites, and smite them;

For executing the interracial couple Phinehas and his sons (not the women of course because women are property) are blessed by god (Yahweh) with the priesthood.

Bamidbar 25: 10 And HaShem spoke unto Moses, saying:

11 'Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned My wrath away from the children of Israel, in that he was very jealous for My sake among them, so that I consumed not the children of Israel in My jealousy.

12 Wherefore say: Behold, I give unto him My covenant of peace;

13 and it shall be unto him, and to his seed after him, the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was jealous for his G-d, and made atonement for the children of Israel.'

abiogenesis35, the Bible cannot be understood without the help of the Holy Spirit. It's NOT an ordinary book.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Cor. 2:14

It seems quite possible that, whereas God has used the vehicle of various Christian denominations to attract people to the Gospel ... using the widest of nets ... He is now about winnowing out the flock, so to speak. Calling His church out of OUR church. That would signal, to me, the real end time, a time to get all the more serious with our faith and our lives.

spidermean2 writes:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1Cor. 2:14

I'll bet every self-annointed prophet expectorated on North American shores has used that reference to insist on subsumption of the intellect (a gift from the Creator, after all) to the received wisdom of the "divine messenger".

How about a partial list: Jim Baker, James Swaggert, Marshall Applewhite, Joseph Smith, William Miller, David Koresh, Benny Hinn, Jim Jones, etc, ad nauseum.

The "natural man" is well advised to remain so.

Great news!! Best news of 2008! I especially love Leonard's "it's about the demographics" comment. Hah! Good one, bud. No, Leonard, it's not about the demographics or even the epidemiology of non-Jesus knowers. This is about a religion (churchianity) which is dead dead dead dead dead.

Ah, all the good ole religions: Lutherans (the boats ain't comin' anymore, Sven), the Presbyterians (ever find that theology anywhere you keep saying you have?), the Methodists (just Baptists who can read) -- all of 'em. Dead, dead, dead, dead, dead. Oh!, and the recent fatal blow to the uppercrusty pinheaded Episcopals!!! Such fun to see!! Golly.

Why even the local Jovies are selling their temple. Hah!!!

Spiritual materialism of the Saddleback Baptist Church kind, of the ELCA, of the UPC, UMC, all of 'em has finally run its course and they're all melting melting. All their beautiful wickedness!!

And the Romans!! WOW!! Now with that poncey little Nazi diss-ing the drag queens while in his ermine tipped moire silk evening gown and party hat!! Oh Prunella! So rich.

Keep 'em comin', Christians. You guys are a laugh a minute. Why, it'd be great fun to prop up one of you fat, goateed, irrelevant toads on the inaugural platform and let him blather into a microphone for a bit. It'd be perfect! Wait, what's that you say? It's gonna happen? Oh wow, that's a great way to start another banner year for you numbskulls.

Oh, I'm looking forward to all your comedy routines this next year, christians. I don't know who writes your material but it's priceless. God, who could think this stuff up?

Come and worship! Bring your checkbook! We have donuts!

Part II

abiogenesis35:

Barbarity:

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18)

Cf. Relevant verses in Mark, Luke, et al.

FYI: The web site from which you took this King James translation of Tanakh stuck what they could then find on the web by way of English translation.

To say it is inaccurate is to say the least. There is no decent English translations among Christian "OTs" The best English translation, IMO, is the Steinsaltz.

That aside, the Tanakh isn't Jewish "scriptures."
Minimally, Jewish "scriptures" comprise the Tanakh and Talmud. The Cs wrestd, thieved, stole, expropriated, misread another people's text.

Per Edward Said, thieving another people's culture is the sine qua non of imperialism.

Many Catholic and Christian theologians recognize the need for ridding the "NT" (sic) of its historical inaccuracies, lies, and for cleansing the "NT" (sic), i.e., eliminating its immorality and racism, among them Rosemary Reuther, Rev. John Haynes, and, most recently (and hearteningly), twelve Orthodox Christian clergy.

Please do not take this as an invitation to chat with me.

abiogenesis35: Part IA

Let us, therefore, get down to business. Please quote the biblical passages in Hebrew, since clearly you can't find a decent translation (the Steinsaltz is not on the web; no decently translated Tanakh is).

For the passages you cite, I'm sure you'll agree it would be best for us to begin with appropriate commentaries from the Mishnah (Aramaic, please; no need to bother translating on my account, my friend). We can move on from the Mishnah later on.

My friend, this promises to be a very long and interesting discussion. I look forward to it.

abiogenesis35: Pat IAA

In the meantime, you've made it clear that you have problems with both reading and truth-telling. It is to accommodate the former that I bother with this pasting, i.e., so that the literate person you find to assist you won't have to bother scrolling all the way down.

Abiogenesis: Part I
You say you have read the (twenty-some-odd) tractates of Talmud many times. I'm assuming you are referring to the Babylonian Talmud rather than the Talmud Yerushalmi, given the passages you cite.

Goldmund52hotmailcom:

Interesting post! You've given me a lot to think about.

Farnaz

If the bible were the Word Of God and not, in fact, a compilation of ancient myths written by men and published for profit, we would see it written in the sky in letters of fire 1000 feet high. And probably not in English.

The post by Goldmund52 is both interesting and very entertaining - we should see more.

spencer1 Author Profile Page:

If the bible were the Word Of God and not, in fact, a compilation of ancient myths written by men and published for profit, we would see it written in the sky in letters of fire 1000 feet high. And probably not in English.
-------------------------
O, but it is. At least the "NT" (sic). Travel the highways south my friend. Look up and see neat little verses in Neon. Check out the restaurants in the Bible Belt, NT (sic)-wise. "Jesus is the silent partner in this business." Hallelujah! Gimme the money.

Since Jesus has been making the Christians/Romans rich since Constantine, and prefers to write in English, them Christians don't question much.

The Southern Baptist Convention systematically drove away the more moderate members over the last decade, leaving only the sour-puss, you-kids-better-get-off-my-lawn curmudgeons to carry the torch. Not much left in the current crowd to attract new members.

Has anyone considered that the decline just MAY have something to do with the SB's marginalisation of women?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/110494.stm

Since when was the "bottom line" the bottom line? If the SBC is so concerned about numbers, maybe they should consider this: many of the people that are looking for the truth are finding it in places that are more culturally relevant, experience oriented, and more moderate both politically and theologically. In my experiences growing up SBC, if there is one group that is so afraid of change it's them.
For years people were demonized because they didn't tow the party line and were virtually shut out of the SBC. Now they are concerned because they aren't drawing people into the fold? If your're still partying like it's 1959, it's no wonder. The results of the 2008 election should be proof enough that they have lost touch with many people.
Meanwhile, the hard-liners are starting to retire and fade away. Maybe then the SBC can focus on numbers that really matter:
1. How many members grew more spiritual?
2. Were your members helping the poor and healing the sick?
3. How many members changed their attitudes about worship and prayer and sought God more fervently?
If we are so concerned about numbers, then Jesus must have been the worst pastor of them all, because he only saved 12, and one them betrayed him.

concernedaboutdc stated:

Organized religion has caused more war and death than any other instigation of confrontation. Besides that, organized religion has become devisive and intolerent.
===============
While I appreciate your post and spiritual journey, the statement I quote above is factually incorrect. The three largest 'instigation or confrontations' to cause death are (in order):
1. Chinese Communist consolidation movements of the late 40's, 50's and 60's killed over 60 million and maybe as many as 100 million.
2. Stalinist purges of the 30's and early 40's killed over 35 million kulaks, peasants, teachers, professionals and soldiers; and
3. The Mongul/Khan depopulation of Northern China killed over 23 million. This number would have been larger, however the Khan realized that dead people don't pay taxes or raise cattle.

All three of these movements were atheistic and conducted against there own people. The largest Western religious war was the series of 12 Crusades which killed less than 1 million total. The Spanish Inquisition, for all its infamy, actually killed less than 2,500 in 150 years - bad but in perspective, less than those who died building the Great Wall.

While I do not excuse those who would kill in the name of God, I just wanted to set the record straight on the urban myth that you and others so frequently quote.

dncthm1 stated:

I called Focus on the family to find out what is an evangelical. I talked to four different people and none knew what it is.
===================
The normal theological definition of Evangelical includes two parts:

1. Each person must decide to follow Jesus Christ. That is to say that nobody is 'born Christian' nor does one inherit Christianity from family or friends by proxy. Each person must make a decision, based on their best understanding, to follow Jesus.

2. The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments contain authority with regard to salvation and morality. That is to say, when there is conflict between the Scriptures, reason, dogma, the Church, tradition or our feelings, Scripture will be the lens through which the others will be interpreted.

Obviously, two paragraphs do not comprise a complete theology - perhaps a good book with which to start is Donald Bloesch's [Essentials of Evangelical Theology]. It is an easy read and has been a standard of progressive Evangelicalism for decades. I hope this helps.

If you want to know what an Evangelical is, a good starting place is the "Bebbington Quadrilateral," a fourfold test developed by Cambridge graduate and British historian David Bebbington. According to Bebbington's thesis, evangelicalism is the intersection of (1) biblicism, (2) crucicentrism, (3) conversionism, and (4) activism. Bebbington defined each of those items carefully, so don't go running away from here assuming that you understand what he meant by each of those terms unless you've given the matter a bit of research and thought.

By the way, I'm a Southern Baptist. I think it worth mentioning that:

1. The Southern Baptist Convention criticized as less than compassionate in these comments operates the third-largest volunteer disaster relief organization in this nation. I assure you, the people who survived Hurricanes Katrina, Rita, and Ike will not sit still to hear Southern Baptists decried as unfeeling.

2. The disaster relief organizations in the first two slots (the American Red Cross and the Salvation Army) you've seen all over the place soliciting you for money. But you've never seen the Southern Baptist Convention running advertising spots asking you for money or standing beside a kettle outside the local shopping mall, have you? I wonder who foots the bill for all of those yellow-vested disaster relief workers who descended upon NYC after 9-11, for example? The individual Southern Baptists who have been accused of being greedy in this comment stream, that's who funds it.

3. Although I cannot provide up-to-date research, as recently as the beginning of this decade people of more colors, languages, ethnicities, and socio-economic statuses met weekly to worship in churches affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention than in any other type of churches. These members of this ultra-diverse lot are the people labeled as racists in this comment stream.

4. I'm a National Merit Scholar who went on to learn five languages and earn a Ph.D. in history. If I am a member of "an audience of undereducated, culturally deprived Americans," then I'd be interested to hear the credentials of the person advancing such a claim.

Cbbarber,

The Communists also thought they were doing a lot of good for the world.

Communism - theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.

CCNL:

Unless I am mistaken, I do believe that it is customary when one has no specific points to advance, yet wishes to besmirch a large group of people nonetheless, to compare them to "Hitler" or "the Nazis" rather than "Communism" (and with a definition, even!).

What makes your paragraph ring a bit hollow is the fact that I did not enter this comment stream to make some general assertion that Southern Baptists are without flaws or that Southern Baptists have accomplished well all that they have set out to do. Rather, I entered to counter several false insults that have been hurled rather recklessly against Southern Baptists in this comment thread. And in doing so, I tried out something new in the thread: I offered specific facts and statistics to further the conversation rather than bald assertions, specious comparisons, and ignorant slurs.

Well I brought up the issue of homosexuality and was essentially ignored on this particular blog (you know, not worthy of your noble thoughts). Our society or culture is definitely losing its grip. I think air conditioning has broken the cohesion. We don't really know our neighbors anymore; no sitting on the porch and watching the kids play. Television has replaced conversation and interaction. Just look how your sofas and chairs are oriented; certainly not toward one another. And of course, morality and civility is just off the chain, man. No wonder people are freaking out and exploding in violence. We feel hurried and rushed when in reality we just sit around. So it is kind of hard to be motivated to go to church or have a passionate love for Jesus. I know he warned about this stuff somewhere in his teachings (well, not about a/c and tv......). I hope I can break that mold of my own life before too many decades pass me.

CBBARBER,

You wrote:

"By the way, I'm a Southern Baptist. I think it worth mentioning that:

"1. The Southern Baptist Convention criticized as less than compassionate in these comments operates the third-largest volunteer disaster relief organization in this nation. I assure you, the people who survived Hurricanes Katrina, Rita, and Ike will not sit still to hear Southern Baptists decried as unfeeling."

Compassion in the face of widespread physical disaster is relatively easy.

Much harder is compassion in the face of other people's ordinary lives, with their ordinary thoughts, beliefs and sexualities, particularly if they differ from one's own.

I have doubts that Southern Baptists as a community pass that more difficult compassion test.

Goldmund - funny stuff! Here's an interesting link for all you Benedict/Ratzinger watchers. In years past, then Cardial Ratzinger once declared Buddhism to be the equivilant of 'mental masturbation'. Surely he's mellowed in the glow of the ecumenical spirit since those bad old days!

I recall that he sold his vintage volkswagon on Ebay about the time of his coronation as Pope - I suppose the Vatican needed the cash.

http://rollanscensoredissuesblog.blogspot.com/2007/04/describing-pope-benedicts-gay-problem.html

Words from President Harry Truman:

[The Baptists] do not want a person to go to shows or dance or do anything for a good time. Well I like to do all those things and play cards besides. So you see I am not very strong as a Baptist. Anyhow I don't think any church on earth will take you to heaven if you're not real anyway. I believe in people living what they believe and talking afterwards.... (From a letter to Bess Wallace, March 19, 1911. Papers Relating to Family, Business, and Personal Affairs.)

The decline of the mainline American Christian sects, including the Southern Baptists, has to do with demographic change in the United States and the rise of effective competition for the faithful.

Declining birth rates among white middle class Americans, high and rising birth rates among the non-white poor and immigrants, and the rise of pentecostal churches offer Christians who want religious discipline in their lives alternative strategies for getting it. One no longer need join an evangelical congregation to find pleasing doctrine, social fraternity, the chance to serve, and quality religious experience.

The competition for American souls is intense, and mainline Protestant churches are feeling the effects of that competition. In reality, the Bottomline is that alternative churches have learned from historically successful sects, like the Southern Baptists and the Mormons, and have borrowed the most-appealing features of each.

Many will look upon change in the American Christian Church with despair, but this competition for the faithful is why America, a European Enlightenment society, isn't like Europe when it comes to religious faith and observance.

Three cheers for competition!

NORRIEHOYT,

Responding to widespread physical damage being so easy (in your words), it makes me wonder why more people don't do it. I presume that you've found it easy from your personal experience of the weeks that you've spent on the Gulf Coast rebuilding things?

What you have described as compassion is really just a laissez-faire approach to other people's lives. "You leave me alone and I'll leave you alone" may be desirable in some cases and may even be your personal moral philosophy, but compassion it is not.

Southern Baptists have moral convictions that some others in our nation do not share (although Prop 8 is a reminder that we are far from alone). But holding a moral conviction is not the same thing as lacking compassion. For example, Rick Warren presumably believes that homosexual activity is sinful, yet he labors hard to combat AIDS. He demonstrates both compassion and moral conviction. Although it manifests itself in many different ways for many different people and congregations, this is the case for the preponderance of SBC congregations.

Nevertheless, you do rightly remind us that compassion begins at home. The SBC church that I attend contributes (as of 2008 figures) 62% of the money spent in our community to help the poor to pay their utility bills. In my entire lifetime, I've never been a part of an SBC church that didn't set aside money to care for the poor. Nor could I use up an entire hand in counting the number of non-religious organizations in our community doing anything to help anyone.

We just aren't very diligent about making sure that such activities are covered in the Washington Post.

Volkmare said:

A lot of you talk about what a Christian faith should be, how it should act, and if it did it would grow. Did you know there is one that fits all your rules and, as a result, is one of the fastest growing faiths in the U.S. and the world?

You should check it out sometime. It’s called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Give it some serious investigation. You’ll be pleasantly surprised in what you find.

Mark

Mark. I have checked out the LDS, and have found some of the nicest people on earth there...unfortunately, I haven't found the gospel: The good news that Christ has died for us while we were sinners, loves us who we are and does not demand from us a life of works and worrying. The gospel I read tells me that Christ calls me, gathers and sustains me together with the whole church, and that he totally and freely forgives my sin, and demands nothing more from me than to receive it...and even that is a gift.

The Book of Mormon, and the other LDS books have created "another gospel" and it is one in which Mormons must constantly try and earn just one more thing...that's not the gospel of Christ.

Chris

chris,
you are welcome to your opinion, but you are quite wrong.

mark

CCBarber said:

What makes your paragraph ring a bit hollow is the fact that I did not enter this comment stream to make some general assertion that Southern Baptists are without flaws or that Southern Baptists have accomplished well all that they have set out to do. Rather, I entered to counter several false insults that have been hurled rather recklessly against Southern Baptists in this comment thread. And in doing so, I tried out something new in the thread: I offered specific facts and statistics to further the conversation rather than bald assertions, specious comparisons, and ignorant slurs.

Except that you didn't "offer specific facts and statistics". You asserted things, like the "fact" that the SBC operates the 3rd largest relief organization. On what basis? Per capita? You might lose to the Mennonites (who were a significant presence in LA after Katrina, in spite of their small numbers in the US. How about Catholic Relief Services and Lutheran Disaster Relief...neither of which solicts contributions either, but has a 100 + year tradition of assistance to whomever asks for help, regardless of creed, etc. As far as how many languages, colors, etc., I suspect that the Roman Catholic Church in this country probably has the SBC beat significantly. But, of course, these statements assume that one includes the Catholic Church in the roster of Christian denominations.

chris,
you are welcome to your opinion, but you are quite wrong.

mark

Mark: Are you trying to tell me that LDS does not believe that one has to do the works of God to be saved? How about non-biblical concepts like exaltation, multiple heavens, etc., etc.? Most LDS cannot advocate their faith on the basis of the Bible, but must bring in other books and comments from their "prophets". And yet, for Christians, the bible alone is all that it needed, and it tells us that we do not earn our salvation. And that's the distinction between Christians and LDS

CALSAILOR:

1. I did offer fact and statistics, I merely didn't document them fully. There's a difference.

2. The "third largest" status is based upon total number of volunteers.

3. It is not my purpose at all to disrespect the wonderful, incredible work of the Mennonites, Roman Catholics, etc., in their disaster relief efforts. Context, my friend...context. But for the suggestion that the SBC is a hoard of troglodytic ogres in previous comments, I would not be here at all. Roman Catholics might just as easily have borne the brunt of these attacks as Southern Baptists have, in which case I would appreciate someone privy to the facts defending them with facts. As things lie, I am delighted to stipulate that Mennonites, Catholics, Lutherans, and Southern Baptists all alike are preponderantly generous, loving, compassionate people who are among the first to respond when people are in need.

Chris Sailor,
As another interested observer, I noted your comment about the Bible and the LDS. I love the Bible, and am not in the least worried about it containing plenty of scriptures (I've read them again and again) that imply that receiving grace implies changing one's life for the better--reaping the fruits of that incomprehensible gift of unmerited grace by doing something about it. Ghostbuster, an Evangelical, has written about this before.

'Hope you had a lovely Christmas season. Peace to you, in all sincerity.

Chris, Chris, Chris,

We do God’s work all the time as prescribed in the bible.

Exaltation and multiple levels of heaven (3 of them) ARE in the bible.

The bible is the word of god. That is one of the articles of our faith.
The book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus that validates the bible. It does not replace it, present additional works of Jesus after the time of the bible, nor does it diminish the bible.

What else is it that you don’t understand?

Mark

Volkmare, Volkmare, Volkmare,

Mormonism is a business cult using religion as a front and charitable donations and volunteer work to advertise said business.

And it is all based on the "revelations" of a "pretty, wingie, thingie" named Moroni. And that makes Mormonism much like a lot of other religions whose "foundations" are based on these mythical creatures.

To wit:

Joe Smith had his Moroni.

Jehovah Witnesses have their Jesus /Michael the archangel, the first angelic being created by God;

Mohammed had his Gabriel (this "tinkerer" got around).

Jesus and his family had Michael, Gabriel, and Satan, the latter being a modern day demon of the demented.

The Abraham-Moses myths had their Angel of Death and other "no-namers" to do their dirty work or other assorted duties.

Contemporary biblical and religious scholars have relegated these "pretty wingie thingies" to the myth pile. We should do the same to include deleting all references to them in our religious operating manuals. Doing this will eliminate the prophet/profit/prophecy status of these founders and put them where they belong as simple humans just like the rest of us.

Some added references to "tinker bells".

"Latter-day Saints also believe that Michael the Archangel was Adam (the first man) when he was mortal, and Gabriel lived on the earth as Noah."

Apparently hallucinations did not stop with Joe Smith.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07049c.htm
"This belief in guardian angels can be traced throughout all antiquity; pagans, like Menander and Plutarch (cf. Euseb., "Praep. Evang.", xii), and Neo-Platonists, like Plotinus, held it. It was also the belief of the Babylonians and Assyrians, as their monuments testify, for a figure of a guardian angel now in the British Museum once decorated an Assyrian palace, and might well serve for a modern representation; while Nabopolassar, father of Nebuchadnezzar the Great, says: "He (Marduk) sent a tutelary deity (cherub) of grace to go at my side; in everything that I did, he made my work to succeed."

Catholic monks and Dark Age theologians also did their share of hallucinating:

"TUBUAS-A member of the group of angels who were removed from the ranks of officially recognized celestial hierarchy in 745 by a council in Rome under Pope Zachary. He was joined by Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, and Raguel."

And tinker bells go way, way back:

"In Zoroastrianism there are different angel like creatures. For example each person has a guardian angel caled Fravashi. They patronize human being and other creatures and also manifest god’s energy. Also, the Amesha Spentas have often been regarded as angels, but they don't convey messages, but are rather emanations of Ahura Mazda ("Wise Lord", God); they appear in an abstract fashion in the religious thought of Zarathustra and then later (during the Achaemenid period of Zoroastrianism) became personalized, associated with an aspect of the divine creation (fire, plants, water...)."

"The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hittites and Canaanites had their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of angels are found in Near Eastern literature. "

"The 'Magic Papyri' contain many spells to secure just such help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the guardian angel. "

For added information see the review at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel

ccnl

sometimes you realy do write something worth reading, but not today.

mark

Mark, Mark, Mark,

So your "prophet" has brainwashed you with the Moroni syndrome making your neurons blind to criticism. There are many like you but Reality will one day light your path to the Truth.

You know, I have spent a lot of my day’s road racing, drag racing, and setting Bonneville land speed records with motorcycles, snowmobiles and cars.

When you are not winning the races or setting records, you are everyone’s friend.
The moment you start winning, you become a target of all of those who are shooting blanks. Those blank shooters will accuse you of everything under the sun without grounds of truth anywhere to be seen. …Very similar to the court system.

My experience in all of that has taught me that all of the mindless attacks on Mormonism is best received as a complement.

So bring it on!

I love your attacks as they reinforce my feeling that I am on the right path. Because if I weren’t, there would be no attacks, and ya’ll would be my friends.

Thanks! It’s wonderful to be on top!

Mark.

Ps: if you have any questions, I would love to have a civil conversation with anyone about my faith.

In a discussion about Mormonism, there are only two words needed, "Mythical Moroni".

To comment on the original article, I ( a born again, Bible believing, God glorifying Christian ) believe that the decrease in the SBC is a good thing. All the denominations (not just the SBC) have been preaching a watered down version of the Gospel for nearly a hundred years and the church buildings have been filling up with people who believe but have never actually been regenerated. In other words people who are not really Christians. This act of adopting people into membership based on nothing more that a profession of faith or worse (baptising infant or young children and counting them on the roles) is simply a modern manifestation of denominational pride and is a pharisism. If only true blue, born again, regenerated Christians (those whose actual lives reflect and produce the fruit consistant with repentance) - our churches would drop instantly to 3 - 5 % of their current membership.

you can google this phrase : the third-largest volunteer disaster relief organization