Priest Calls Vote for Obama a Mortal Sin

Mr. Waters, a priest does not speak for a diocese. Consult the bishop. End of story.

This priest did not say any such thing about free speech. He said the truth. He said voting for politicians who support abortion, such as Obama, constitute material cooperation with evil. That is not knew nor controversial. Catholics have a moral resposibility with their votes in a democratic society to uphold Christian values.

Upholding politicians who allow policies allowing the killing of unborn children is not a Christian value. You are free to think and speak what you want in America. You are also free to damn your soul.

"He's saying that having an opinion is a mortal sin. He's saying that freedom of speech and thought is a mortal sin."

Is this really the mental leap you made? From condemning a pro-choice position to "having an opinion is a mortal sin"?

I wonder how many people he denied communion for abetting racism. This is EXACTLY why there should be no mixing of church and state. Pick and choose your sins. Disgusting.

To those defending this viewpoint, the priest in question is showing absolutely no objectivity. The church is also anti-death penalty. Does that mean that anyone voting for a pro-death penalty candidate should be denied communion?

This seems to me like more evidence that the rhetoric that is used to inflame the passions and anger of parishioners is transferring over to the clergy as well. Christianity is not about anger, it is about love.

W

And going to war on false pretenses and having many people get killed due to that is not a sin? I think a great many people think that constitutes material cooperation with evil. I think evil resides in many more places than this article identifies and they all have to be viewed through the same glasses.

I'd be curious to ask the good reverend to find out if it would be a mortal sin to have voted for McCain, a Catholic who has been divorced (I believe the church frowns on that pretty big), and from what I remember, doesn't attend Sunday Mass. I believe that Catholics are obligated to attend Mass every weekend (Saturday afternoon/evening, or Sunday) and failure to do so is a mortal sin unless you seek penance. Also, ask the good reverend to find out his opinion on the fact that even though Obama is for abortion rights, I do believe that he is personally against the practice. Basically Subliminally was right in the post above "This is EXACTLY why there should be no mixing of church and state."

The Catholic Church lost all authority to define morality when it refused to protect innocent children from predator priests. Their hypocrisy knows no bounds.

As stated, Catholics have a moral resposibility with their votes in a democratic society to uphold Christian values.

IF that's the case, then supporting the war in Iraq is not upholding Christian values. As taught in the Gospels, the Christian value is to love your enemy.

...."may be goin' to hell in a bucket, but at least I'm enjoying the ride"....

But Priests like this one who like to play hide the salami with alter boys just get relocated to a monastery.

Well, ok then.

So then it follows that a voter who votes for a politician who supports the death penalty or who refuses to commute a death sentence commits a mortal sin, as well as if he votes for a politician who supports an immoral war. Thus a voter who voted for President Bush also committed a mortal sin, it would appear to follow.
But who am I to judge lest I be judged?
Is a priest given the right by God to determine sin? Or is it more properly his role to help sinners seek forgiveness? Is that what he claims?

When a president is sworn in, he places his hand on the bible and swears to uphold the constitution and not the reverse. It's that simple.

MikeL4: You're right, Catholic priests have the constitutional right to express their personal religious views. And the United States government has the constitutional right to tax and police them like any other business.

As long as people look to others to define their morality, there will exist those who attempt to define morality for others.

Just read Article VI of the U.S. Constitution. If you believe in a religious test for office, get the heck out of this country and take your theocratic policies with you.

This priest is dangerously erroneous and I wonder what other deviant teachings he expouses.

Men like these with tendecies to play God are the ones who destroy the christian faith from within.

This priest ought to shut up and honor the spiritual institution of marriage (after all the first pope - Peter the apostle - was a married man) and think about denying sacrament to all the priests molesting kids instead of honoring the biblical institution of marriage.

- abortion may be wrong, but it is a human vice like all the other sins and may be he ought to start denying sacrament to himself to he repents from the man-made error of requiring himself not be married.

- marriage was created for humans (between a man and a woman), marriage was not created for "christians".

This priest is a hypocrite and they are the ones Jesus warned about much like the Pharisees.

First off, just because a candidate is pro-choice doesn't automatically mean that he/she will be able to or even try to change the law. So the arguement that abortions will automatically go up, based on the election, and not based on any changes in the law is rediculous and doesn't stand up to any measure of a) intelligence or b) logic.

So another logical question....does this priest also view a vote for McCain as an immoral vote and therefore would deny communion to those people? McCain is also pro-choice (at least he was in the past)...which is why the republicans wanted him to choose a vp candidate that was pro-life. He also prefers to keep an immoral war going, where Obama did not. McCain also killed people in his life (yes, as a member of the Navy, in Vietnam, as instructed by our Military), and the Bible says "Thou Shalt not commit murder" (and doesn't go into when it is/isn't ok to kill). Obama has never killed anyone.

So, in the interest of not being a hypocrit in words and deeds, would this priest deny McCain supporters Communion? If so, than that wipes out almost every person who voted in this country from being able to take communion.

An organization of Father Pedaphiles whose creed is 'do as I say, not do as I do' and whose influence is as impotent as Hitler's balls, a Priest who condemns one to "mortal sin" - this should well mean something, but it means nothing.
The Catholic Church is so bankrupt in just plain commen sense that its influence remains just a ritual, where individuals communicate with God in their own way, and being rational, tolerate their Priests, Bishops and Popes as people tolerate certain kin in their family.

PLEASE keep church and state separate! The good news is that this will further marginalize moderate Christians. Normal people don't think like this and frankly, are turned off by this kind divisiveness.

Aside from his parishoners who must have drunk the Kool Aid, I'm kinda wondering who really cares what this priest says. This kind of talk is just divisive and hateful. Christ would have disagreed with this guy.

The hypocracy or at least inconsistancy of this Priest is extreme, if not common. I grew up Catholic and have a fairly good idea of what the mortal sins of the Catholic Church are. Number one is "thou shall not kill", but McCain and frankly virtually all politicians in America support policies that have killing as their goal. McCain explicitly supported both war and the death penalty. Even Obama supports killing Bin Laden.

For a religious belief to make any sense at all it has to be consistent, and none of the big Christian, Jewish or Muslim churches are against killing in war. Essentially they support the idea of one person taking anothers so long as their is a political goal involved. I don't hear the evangelicals complaining to the RNC about the war in Iraq, in fact they seem to agree that we should stay there.

I personally don't see sin as an absolute right or wrong. We need to do whatever we can to try and stop the suffering in the world. End war. Most of the dead in any modern war are non-combatents. Is it acceptable to God that we kill innocent mem and women and children who just happen to be in Iraq or Afghanistan? If we make our standard for voting that the candidate not support any legislation that results in a violent death of a human, then I doubt that we could vote for anyone. I would have much more respect for churches if they consistently spoke up every time any politician did anything that might result in killing, but to fixate on one particular though not all that clear cut issue, while leaving all the others alone, seems stupid.

By telling those who voted for Obama not to take communion he most definitely is politicking and telling Catholics they are not allowed to have an opinion differing from the church. If that doesn't call into question their tax exempt status, I don't know what does.

I can't answer for Catholics but this country was established on a foundation of freedom, justice and liberty for all. Not that we always live up to that, but the intent was to establish a country that every one was free to practice their religion, but that there was a common ground, a common set of values that everyone accepted for the good of everyone. Since specific religious beliefs and values differ from religion to religion, this common good acts as a buffer and protection for the rights of all.

Unfortunately, it seems that religious groups today interpret freedom of religion to mean "yes, MY freedom of religion which overrides yours, because otherwise you are restricting my right to practice my freedom of religion." We see how well that works.

religious institutions that involve themselves in politics a la Prop 8, are no longer acting for the common good. they are also breaking a trust given them in the form of tax exempt status. So my feeling is this- the priest can talk politics and tell people how to vote (if he likes igniting religious wars, that is), but we must rescind tax exempt status for religious organizations who do so. If they want to be part of the democratic process, they have to be responsible to it and pay for it- like the rest of us. G-d knows, we could use the money.

Now I remember why I left the Catholic Church, backwards thinking and draconian punishments.
I can't believe that the church would allow comments like that to be tolerated, even with the way the church looks at abortion. This priest should be excommunicated from the church! And besides what business is it of his who people voted for!

This is typical of the catholic church: Do what we say, follow our doctrines, or you will be ostracized and go to hell. Unfortunately, this is not confined to the catholic church -- it is typical of most religions.

That's why I left the catholic church. That's one of the reasons I am an atheist. The other is that I'm a scientist who prefers reason and critical analysis to superstition.

He's only mouthing the dictates of the bishops (aka brahmin) who recently met to annouce their intention to "actively confront" pres-elect Obama. Of course these are the same men (what? no women?) who remained silent in the knowledge that scores of priests were abusing young boys for decades. Where was their moral outrage then? And when victims of abuse at the hands of priests sought relief from the church, what happened? The bishops (perhaps even the cardinals and the pope himself) pursued one strategic line to downplayy the claims of abuse or to discredit the victims. At the end of the day, catholicism, as promulgated from Rome, is incompatible with American democracy.

It is nonsense like this and more from priests of questionable sexuality that made me an Atheist more than 50 years ago.
This "flat earth" priest should be consigned to a darkened room in a seminary for a considerable number of years.
Who quantifies Mortal Sin ? The Church ? with its abundant evidence of sins against humanity these last 2 thousand years.

"In effect, he's saying that thinking is now mortal sin. He's saying that having an opinion is a mortal sin."

You honestly don't believe that, do you? Voting is an action. Thinking and having an opinion is not. He said no such thing:

"Voting for a pro-abortion politician when a plausible pro-life alternative exists constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil, and those Catholics who do so place themselves outside of the full communion of Christ's Church and under the judgment of divine law."

Like it or not, that is the teaching of the Church, and he simply reminded his flock of that fact.

He DID NOT say one had to vote for McCain instead. In fact, I know many Catholics who voted for third-party candidates or did not vote at all.

I think it's terrific that a priest actually had the balls to tell his parishioners the truth. Sure, countless members may leave his parish, but countless others will join for his courage.

Jesus warned us about Pharisees like this one.

This is the way the world ends…not with a bang, but a whimper!

You know, I like to think that if I take the time to post a comment, it will add something to the discussion and will be presented in a thoughtful, logical and, hopefully, articulate manner.

But I fail here on all counts, and instead go with my initial impression: this guy's a douchebag.

Sorry.

Somehow, the concept that this country is a democracy built on the principle of free speech and freedom of religion seem to escape the right wing-nuts, like this priest.

I am embarrassed to admit that I was raised Catholic and spent 2 years in the seminary after hearing this kind of rhetoric coming out of the mouth of "church representatives". Compound that with the backing of Prop 8 in California, the Bishop Conference threat to attack Obama and the loss of mission, this version of the church deserves no respect.

This type of attack is no better than the shrill screams of the other right wing-nuts. Perhaps they can move the U.S headquarters to Palinville.

This twisted little man is telling people their souls are in danger if they vote in opposition to the mandate of the catholic church. It threatens to reduce their political and funding base if people refrain from having babies for Jesus.

I am an ex-Catholic. Know when I quit? When my Jesuit religion teacher wanted to touch me. Piss on the catholic church and its two thousand years of lies and deception. The most prolific pedophile cult in the world. All led by a "Holy Father" ... what a dark, nasty cartoon.

When will the suckers awaken???

I wonder if this man wrote a letter condeming Bush for the death of thousands of children and innocent Iraqis? If he did, then I applaud him for his moral consistency. Otherwise, I find his views offensive to the body of christ.

This priest has decided that he is God. He is NOT. He has no right whatsoever to condemn those who voted for Mr. Obama. He should be asked to step down immediately. It is not up to him to "interpret" moral law or make decisions on what he thinks is "morally right." It is people like him that make life living hell for others who are just trying to live their lives. What is a "mortal sin," Rev. Newman, is for you to place yourself in a position where you have judged everyone who doesn't think/feel/believe as you. Voting for whom I want as president does not fall qualify as a "mortal sin." Judging, condemning and denying others does.

If the Catholic Church would go back to teaching values and allow it's members to act in good conscience, it might not be losing its constituency at such an alarming rate.

As Catholic Bishops rant anti gay marriage proclamations and fight any common sense birth control efforts in this country,the priests they are responsible for are making ididotic statements and, if memory serves, also engaging in some very non priestly behaviour

If I had been involved in covering up hundreds of acts of pedophilia, I certainly wouldn't be casting stones,

Do these pedophiles not know what they are supporting? The Catholic Church was founded on follow my god or die. This priest has no more ability to allow or disallow your ability to meet your maker. The bible states the JC died for our sins, this means "he" the son of our creator is all ready dead and therefore all of our sins have been forgiven. Just like the priest, we all have our opinions, freedom of speech and all. Just remember or freedom comes from our soldiers dying for our collective beliefs. This year, be believe Obama was the better man. De oppresso liber!

This is no only politicking, its trying to bring back the church's political power that it had in the dark ages. Two things need to be reviewed, The government needs to review this church's tax exempt status, and the Catholic church needs to decide whether it plans to once again rule.

The tax exempt status of this church needs to be reviewed first and foremost. Then the local bishop needs to either approve of disapprove of the priest's actions, if the bishop approves, the tax exempt status of the diocese should be reviewed as well.

The Vatican needs to review this priest's actions and determine whether it is an action the Vatican approves of or not. If it approves, the Vatican needs to decide whether it is on a path to reestablish itself as a ruling governmental body as it long ago once was, and if so, how it plans to do that in continents full of democracies.

Too many times some of those in the Catholic church have wanted to have it both ways. They want the protections of a secular state, they want the tax exemptions, they want the separation from the state while at the same time trying to impose theocratic doctrine through state law, through church law, through its dictates ands sermons.

The Catholic church has chosen to remain separate from the American government and to enjoy a tax exempt status by staying out of politics. A revocation of that tax exemption would be a nice slap on the wrist to the church to remind them of their place.

And my heart goes out to those members of this church who feel terrible, guilty, and basically like they were hit in the stomach. The priest should be fired. What he did was no less an evil act than his pedophile bretheran.

People that are the most scared of our uncertain world are the ones clinging so tightly to what they have been told is the unwavering truth. Add in enormous wealth, grandeur, power & absolute rules and folks like Rev Newman thrive in it. He knows less about people in certain conditions than he thinks he does.

Yet apparently the alternative vote for the parishioners of this "good Father" would be to vote for a man who implicitly condones the deaths of innocent civilians (collateral damage), the inhumane torture of others, the injustices of an economic system that espouses "survival of the fittest" and the wanton destruction of the planet.

I understand and hate the idea of abortion as much as you do, Padre, but your simplistic elevation of this evil above a myriad of other evils you seem to easily ignore bankrupts your entire sense of morality and labels you as an intellectual and moral midget.

Interesting to how uncomfortable it makes people when conservative Christian leaders express THEIR opinion, practicing THEIR freedom of speech and thought defending the sanctity of life. If turning from sin is not a prerequisite to communion with Christ, what is?

A priest with the courage to TELL THE TRUTH!

BRAVO!

Divine Laws are man made rules not the quote:
"The Word of God". Until religious orders can accept follow and understand "God's" plan
they are doomed. The law of "God" in the Bible states: Ecels: 3- 1-10: For EVERYTHING under the sun there is a season...The key word here is EVERTHING under the sun and that includes
aboration . A time to be born, a time to die
a time to hate, a time to love...For EVERYTHING under the sun there is a season

Here we have a example of metaphysical belief morphing past dogma to out-and-out religious fascism. Some of us out there are atheists who happen to think Jesus was one of the best guys who ever lived. People like this intransigent priest dishonor him with legalisms.

Let's see... the priest doesn't believe anyone should vote for a candidate that believes abortion should be legal when there is a pro-life alternative available.

Does he also believe you shouldn't vote for a candidate that supports the death penalty when there is a anti-death penalty alternative available?

Guess you're not voting if he does... And, if he doesn't, why is there a difference between the two?

Everyone should know by now that God is a Republican, and it is no coincidence that the Bible Belt is solidly Red and voted that way. Pronouncements like these are the very reason why Americans need to wake up to the overt agenda to seize power that has been vigorously exercised by the Christian Right in this country. Between comments like those from Congressman Broun of Georgia comparing Obama to Hitler, and self-proclaimed mouth pieces for God like this Priest, that pompous ignorance is on grand display. The problem is that there are too many people out there who nod in agreement to anything wrapped in the guise of the Holy Bible. There is little difference between the fanatic Ayatollahs demanding rigid adherence to Shari'ah law and our hate mongering Christian zealots who seem to have conveniently forgotten the New Testament. We need to affirmatively ride all these people out on a rail.

Throughout history Christianity has occasionally been hijacked by those hungry for power. The results have uniformly been bloody and violent as the agents of intolerance suborn the true message of what is a compassionate and pacifist theology. Our founding fathers were acutely aware of the dangers of a Church-State, and fashioned our Constitution assiduously to avoid this pitfall. The best way for us to moderate the extremists is to remain vigilant and ensure that we prevent them from holding any meaningful positions of power in our Government. Electing President Obama is a marvelous first step. Ignoring people like this Priest and denying them a position in the headlines would be another.

Recently, I read a fascinating book called: Priests, Politicians: The Mafia of the soul by Osho. The Reverend Jay Scott Newman exemplifies the inherent hypocrisy and deceitfulness found in the behavior of so many religious and political figures. They use the politics of fear and intimidation because underneath the respectability of their pulpit, they represent nothing more than what humanity is at its worst. Since they really are empty shells full of rage religion is nothing more than a tool to propagate hate and divisiveness under the guise of worship and love.

Ohhhhh really? So when your patriarchal misogynistic clergy aren't busy sexually abusing little boys they find the need to condemn the votes cast for the president elect on the grounds, ”it constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil?” How about the fact that President Elect Obama voted against the second Iraq war when John McCain forecast an occupation that would last 100 years? Rejecting my confirmation and leaving the Catholic church was the best decision I ever made. Go to hell you self righteous troglodyte.

I think Mr. Newman need a bit of learning here. First, his comment is contradictory to our constitution. American constitution, which makes this country a beacon of hope and the land of free, clearly supports religious freedom as well as freedom of speech. The bottom line is, he can speak his mind but he cannot force his influence to the political sphere in a way he is trying to. Our constitution categorically rejects the merging of church and State, therefore he must express his opinion in a different way, since he has no authority in politics. Secondly, we need to look at history to judge our present day. Brief look at our history reminds us of the particular danger of religious or spiritual institutions act on politics. Do you remember the failed attempts to capture Jerusalem by Crusaders? How about 30 Years War that wiped out nearly half of German population? How about the collaboration of fascist government and Roman Catholic church during the Second World War? We all tend to have short memories but we cannot afford to repeat essentially same mistakes over and over. Mr. Newman might have been frustrated by modern day condition, but he should be instead grateful. Our freedom, granted by American Constitution, allows us to believe what we believe in. Before the establishment of democratic society, there was no religious freedom, one state, one religion, everything else was heresy. That what happened in Imperial Rome when Romans crucified Christ. So Mr. Newman, you ought to be happy with your share of freedom and respect others'as we respect yours.Yet first, you have to rethink the way you exert your influence as a servant of a religious institution. I think you will be glad if you do so. Because in the land of free, freedom and our constitution comes first.

I was beginning to not think about the Catholic Church - for good and personal reasons. Now it's all coming back. The abuses by their clergy, not allowing women to serve as priests, not recognizing marriages or allowing divorce unless agreed to by the church, and the misuse of parish funds among other things. I, unfortunately, have witnessed first hand these acts by the holy men of the cloth. Let me understand; this unmarried, celibate man is going to counsel me on marriage, family matters, and tell me how to exercise a fundamental American right on how I must vote or he will withhold a sacrament of the faith. You would think that this must be against the law. After all it is illegal to buy votes. I suppose punishment for how I vote is ok. Just another of a religion Catch 22. I would enjoy confessing a few things to this "father". To his parishners: I think God would advise you to ignore this turkey and take the sacrement of communion. Or, withhold your tithe until he removes his nose from secular matters enjoyed in a democracy.

Even if he had been saying that 'thinking is a sin,' he'd be in good company. Read the sermon on the mount lately? "... you've heard it said... but I say..." followed by a list of sins that begin as thoughts and desires. Eve wanted the fruit before she ate it. Wake up. Voting, doing, aligning your world view with, favoring, being ambivalent about, or supporting pro-choice is sin, no doubt about it.

I seem to recall Hitler was able to garner the head of the Catholic Church in Germany's endorsement of his government. It would behove the sectarian to avoid advising in secular matters.

jckapla wrote: "A priest with the courage to TELL THE TRUTH! BRAVO!"

A priest who enjoys not paying taxes IF he stays out of politics. And not just the priest, the whole church including the tax exemption of the donations of its members. This is what he has put at risk, which is fine if he doesn't care about that, but he cannot have both an exemption on taxes and get involved in politics. He can talk about the evil of abortion but he cannot tell his flock who to vote for or retaliate against those wh voted a certain way. There is a huge difference.

This priest stepped over the line. Time for him and his flock to pay some taxes like you and me.

@LIGHTGRW

The Church teaches that abortion is intrinsically immoral -- that is, it is not moral under any circumstances. It also teaches that "formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense." (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2272)

On the other hand, "The traditional teaching of the Church DOES NOT EXCLUDE, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, RECOURSE TO THE DEATH PENALTY, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor." (Catechism of the Catholic Church #2267)

So wait? This means that killing people in Iraq would be a sin too! So Christians shouldn't vote. I like that idea.

Why is this news? South Carolina is nude dancer strip joint / church capitol of the nation. They're stranger than their own liquor laws. Nobody likes the taste of them awful crackers anyway.

I'm tired of churches trying to influence voting and would like to see the churches that choose to do so lose their tax exempt status.

Religion is madness. Always has been, always will be. The world is filled with realities that we don't like so we make up stories and absurd rules to deal with a universe we can't control. Humans may be born with the capacity for intelligent thought but it doesn't mean we all develop it. Leave the dark ages of ignorance and superstition behind, come into the light.

As former Catholic U law school dean Doug Kmiec so articulately points out in his writings, the bishops are falsely equating opposition to abortion with opposition to Roe v. Wade. If Roe were overturned tomorrow - as the bishops and their "pro-life" candidate John McCain advocate - it would not outlaw abortion, only give the states the right to outlaw it. And while some would, many would not. In fact, the absolute numbers of abortions might not change at all if Roe were overturned, only their geographic location. (As Kmiec points out, McCain's stand against Roe is as much about federalism as abortion.)

At that point, the bishops and the rest of the pro-life movement would have to decide whether they want to fight a Civil War to resolve the issue (as the country did in the case of slavery), try to pass a constitutional amendment to outlaw abortion (which "pro-life" John McCain has never proposed in 30 years in Congress, and has almost no chance of passage), or live with abortion as a reality in the US, and try to change hearts and minds to reduce the number of abortions as much as possible, as Obama has proposed. (Ironically, this approach of changing hearts and minds when you are not in the political majority is the Church's approach to other matters which are immoral for Catholics but have no broad political support, which is why the church is not working day and night to outlaw divorce and remarriage, or contraception, or invitro fertilization.)

This priest can rant all he likes, and continue to use communion as a weapon to try to coerce Catholic voters to vote Republican as he likes to do (WWJD, Fr. Newman?). But I do not believe that I, as a pro-life Catholic on abortion, who also opposes the war in Iraq, the death penalty, and euthanasia, have committed a mortal sin because I disagree with the bishops on political strategy, and voted for Obama.

This is why we have seperation of church and state! Thank God.

Wow... As a Lutheran, I believe that we're saved by faith alone by God's Grace.

That said, I've also come to believe that Catholicism was engineered by the preists, bishops, papacy, etc. to be a medieval control mechanism - a way to keep the 'common folk' under control.

Evidently, this priest thinks it is still 1514 - I wonder if he sells indulgences too?

Well-written piece, Mr. Waters. There's a reason the Protestant Reformation took place, and this is a prime example of it.

@JAYPEM

He never said you must vote for McCain. I know plenty of Catholics who either voted third party or did not vote.

"He's only mouthing the dictates of the bishops (aka brahmin) who recently met to annouce their intention to "actively confront" pres-elect Obama. Of course these are the same men (what? no women?) who remained silent in the knowledge that scores of priests were abusing young boys for decades. Where was their moral outrage then?"

Not just "were" abusing boys... they still "are" abusing boys. These Taliban are enabling each other, have been for a long time, will keep doing it until they are brought to justice.

What is worse, their "flock" is so brainwashed that these perverts are privy to the voice of God -that the lay community also enable these criminals and their organized crimes.

Catholic Church, Mafia, Taliban... all demand submission in the face of their outlandish abuses.

Neither does the bishop or the pope speak for christ.

Why does the catholic church not take quotes from the bible rather than their book, which was written with the intent of power and money.

I just want to ask one question the roman catholics.

What makes the pope speak for Christ? when he is chosen and voted by men?

Why does the popes crown have the latin inscription "Vicarius Filii Dei" which if added with roman numerals become 6 6 6 also if translated into english means

Vicar of son of God Or In the Stead of christ.

Such blasphemy by a man chosen by men.

quoted for great truth

"I've also come to believe that Catholicism was engineered by the preists, bishops, papacy, etc. to be a medieval control mechanism - a way to keep the 'common folk' under control."

broknprism wrote: "Voting, doing, aligning your world view with, favoring, being ambivalent about, or supporting pro-choice is sin, no doubt about it."

Its not a question of right or wrong or whether the priest had a right to say what he said, he did have a right to say what he did. This is America. What really matters is section 501(c)(3) of the tax code.

Organizations which receive a 501(c)(3) tax exemption have a clear and simple choice to make: they can engage in religious activities and retain their exemption, or they can engage in political activity and lose it, but they cannot engage in political activity and retain their exemption.

By not taxing churches, the government is prevented from directly interfering with how those churches operate. By the same token, those churches are also prevented from directly interfering with how the government operates in that they cannot endorse any political candidates, they cannot campaign on behalf of any candidates, and they cannot attack any political candidate such that the effectively endorse that person’s opponent.

That is the issue. This priest has decided to break the provisions of his 501(c)(3) tax exemption for himself and his church, meaning his parishionars donations are no longer tax exempt as well as his salary. If that is what he wanted that is fine. If that is not what he wanted, then he needs to review his tax exemption again since right now the IRS is probably looking at it too.

No one cares what this priest said to his flock, except maybe the flock. What we care about is that he is having his cake and eating it too, enjoying a 501(c)(3) tax exemption while engaging in politics prohibited by 501(c)(3). Sorry, I'm not about to stand by and see tax law broken by priests who use their power of guilt and church law to influence elections via their flock and then not pay a dime in tax.

"cooperation with intrinsic evil"?????

Guess ill run right out to my local "guilt booth" and unburden my unclean soul to a potential pedophile so that i may return to the good graces of the Romans.

Only then will I be able to, in good conscience, eat a waffer.

Glad the Shaman made this righeous decree to help me out.

This is exactly why the Catholic church is in the dire straits it has been in for so long.Terrorising your parishoners with :Mortal Sins"??Im so happy i parted ways with the church long ago.To threaten a persons own identity with the mess this country is in,in Bushes own words "god has spoken to me" really makes you wonder what God would really think about this position.And to seperate them from the church for Pennance,wonder how much that costs these days??This whole ideal allways brings up that cute phrase,WWJD!?I personnaly beleive Jesus would be pretty Irate at a priest, or alleged Holy Man, who would deny a willing participant for any reason.

1, the catholic Priest can prove his case from the Bible with Scripture stating that abortion is Quote "an abomination unto the lord"

2, to me it is interested that Obama supports both Abortion and Stem Cell Research
They are at seprate ends of the same spectrum
therefore I think a vote for Obama was A vote for "god"
He has a plan
These are the Days of NOe
if you know what the hebrew word nephel means and its relation to Noe then you understand
thank you

How old is the guy and what country is he from?
Does he also tell parishioners not to read the Bible on their own?

I liked that quote, "serve communion to anyone with a pulse." That's us too. Presbyters are very similar to Methodists, but with more holiday decorations.

Our church organization would cease to exist if we were condemned by it for our votes and opinions.

You Catholics: Don't let the thought police steal your freedom.

Religion was thought up to control people. Period. Listening seriously to this priest is like relinguishing your free will!

Okay, let's switch gears for a second. If McCain supports the death penalty, wouldln't it be morally wrong to vote for either candidate? If they are truly evangelistic, how can they justify putting a criminal to death at the pinnacle of their sinful ways? Wouldn't that only be condemning them to Hell? How do they justify supporting a president who wants to continue waging war? On the flip side, if abortion is murder, they should obviously treat it as such, right? So, if a 22 year old mother has an abortion, she should be put to death for murder, correct? And those who aid in that abortion should be placed in jail for conspiracy to commit a murder. If they don't REALLY feel that's the case, then they would be admitting that abortions are "lesser" crimes than murder. I wonder what their answer to that would be?

@BEVJIMS1

Section 501(c)(3) of the tax code does not change truth.

Go ahead and try to tax the Catholic Church, and watch as thousands of Catholic hospitals and universities close their doors.

jckapla wrote: "He never said you must vote for McCain. I know plenty of Catholics who either voted third party or did not vote."

No, he said who you could not vote for. There is no difference. He broke 501(c)(3)'s provisions is he said voting for Obama is a sin of any kind.

You can read more about 501(c)(3) here:
http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=163395,00.html

@BEVJIMS

I never said he did not violate tax law.

I said bravo to him for speaking the truth.

I think that the entire HEART of this here issue, is about our beliefs in Christ (The Purpose of our Christianity faith), first and foremost. Darn the opinions, or thoughts, whatever. I'm disappointed that this article didn't address the core root of this problem in this article.

I'm Christian, but I'm not a Catholic. I don't know what bible Catholics read. I read The Holy Bible, and I believe that Christ paid for our sins, and acceptance and submission to God through Him is The Way. That is my path. I don't need a clergy to tell me what his agenda is, and use My Faith, to try to manipulate my voting patterns. There's more problems, Christians, than one single issue. There's a lot that needs prioritizing. It is one thing for individuals to make their choices, but it's quite another for the government to vastly aid in the problems that affects a broader group of people. As Christians, I believe it is our duty to see to fairness and fight for what is right on the vast. I believe it is our purpose to spread The Word IN A HUMBLE FASHION and not by Force. My Christ did not spread The Message by Force over the lives of the poulation. I don't believe that is our place as Christians, representative of our Christ. Does that make sense? I don't know what bible the clergy reads, but the acceptance or forgiveness of our God and Christ is NOT in his power and he is not above anyone else to decide he has that authority, as far as my understanding goes. He is human like all the rest of us ordinary and flawed beings, and therefore he is in the exact same fix for judgment as all else (with my understanding of my Faith). It's not up to this clergy to decide, and my Bible says different.

Again, all Christians aren't in sync. I'm a Christian, but I'm not Catholic. This is the core issue that needs to be addressed, not opinions behind voting and such. That's only a part of the issue, but the heart of it is the consistency of his behavior with the teachings of our faith in general, and with question of his authority behind it all. The peripheral part of the issue, then, is the question of why he is using or manipulating the faith to support his own voting preferences. That's the second part of the issue. I write here, but I observe these patterns in silence and in amazement.

another random religious zealot wrote

"Section 501(c)(3) of the tax code does not change truth.

Go ahead and try to tax the Catholic Church, and watch as thousands of Catholic hospitals and universities close their doors."

give us what we want or we're taking our ball and going home. good riddance. if this is what your organization actually believes then seriously get out of my country. Im sure there are many other more tolerant and open places on the planet for a pile of tax exempt pedophiles.

that is to say- that God is using Obama in quite the same way he used Nebuchadrezzer ( that doesnt make Obama pious though infact he is a self- righteous bigot who will lead America to its doom)
The Mayan prophecy of 2012 takes on an eerie feel now-
Russia is flexing its muscle
Iran feels good about him
The Americas is turning into an Iron Curtain
hmmm
I think onhindsight we are all going to be so sorry

What a Jackass ~~~Newman Go back to molesting young boys

krisj451: One could effectively argue that the role of the Church was to do more than keep the serfs under control, but the state as well. After all, what power is higher than the Almighty? The Church of England was established specifically to limit the influence of the (foreign) Pope on the politics of England. It's pretty clear that, throughout history, the church and the government (when they are not one and the same) have been locked in a power struggle, and it is only quite recently that the Church has taken a back seat to the State in western societies. It would be foolish to presume they will be content with this state of affairs.

As far as tax exemption goes, most churches back one politician or another, and you're not going to see the IRS cracking down on the policy.. mostly for fear of the backlash (since a majority of this country is religious), but also because it's difficult or impossible to prove that the endorsement was not a form of religious expression.

jckapla wrote: "Section 501(c)(3) of the tax code does not change truth."

No, just the taxes that the priest and his congregation will now be paying.

jckapla wrote: "Go ahead and try to tax the Catholic Church, and watch as thousands of Catholic hospitals and universities close their doors."

This does not affect the entire church, unless it approves and all priests start doing this. But it will affect this priest's tax exmption and his congregation's, which will likely look for a new church since their contributions will no longer be tax deductable. Which is why I think this priest will be fired or removed as so many pedophile priests were removed and put in out of the way church jobs.

The church will protect its tax exemption, you can be sure of that. What is a sin and what is allowed in church law changes with the ages but money is something the church has never changed its opinions of. By the way, its Friday. Is it still a sin to eat meat, in America anyway, on Friday?

It is sad to see so many people condemn this priest for simply saying what he believes, and what the Catholic Church teaches, that abortion is the killing of a human being, and Catholic Christians ought not to support it or anyone who approves of it. People condemn Bush for an "immoral war" where we've lost 4,000 American troops, (and admittedly Iraq has lost many thousands more, often at the hands of their fellow countrymen) but ignore the 4,000 babies killed EVERY DAY through abortion in the U.S. alone. That's right, we kill off 4,000 future U.S. citizens EVERY DAY (about 1.5 million a year)AND HAVE DONE THIS FOR MORE THAN 35 YEARS. Where's the immorality and the hypocrisy? It's laid at the doorstep of people who see nothing wrong with killing off those who have no voice (preborn children)yet say it was "immoral" to remove a despot from power who regularly starved his own people and murdered tens of thousands. Tell me this isn't a travesty. Tell me we don't have something backwards in our ethics. I'm tired of people saying religion has no place in law or governance. If our laws aren't based on some religious foundation, then what will we base them on? The Judeo-Christian ethic has served our country pretty well so far. The fact is, someone's vision will guide our country one way or the other. The last century proved that it's the atheistic Socialist/Communist worldview which has proved to be far more dangerous to life, liberty, and peace.

"By the same token, those churches are also prevented from directly interfering with how the government operates in that they cannot endorse any political candidates, they cannot campaign on behalf of any candidates, and they cannot attack any political candidate such that the effectively endorse that person’s opponent."

This is not the worst of it, they also use "sanctuary" to obstruct justice, hide evidence that would implicate their pedophiles and themselves.

Also, as in the case of Bernard Francis Law they can flee the country under the cover of Constitutional protection.

Even thought Law "begged forgiveness" in the USA, (he should have been rapidly apprehended!) pope John Paul brought him to Rome and Law is currently the archpriest of the Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore. This is as corrupt as anything can get.

Priests don't condone abortion, but ignore child molestion and statutory rape inflicted onto minors by priests. They look the other way when their colleagues commit this crime. They don't hold back communion for these sinners.

@AGENTLEMON

I didn't state that as a threat, simply a matter of fact. If you tax the whole Church, they'll have no choice but to close the doors of countless institutions.

AMEN Obama2008!

The first issue I took with this article was "How can that presumptuous ass of a priest have the AUDACITY to proclaim me cut off from salvation & Jesus Christ because of the way I voted?!"

We are saved thru faith in God and by his Grace alone - no priest, pope, bishop, or anyone else in mankind can put any sort of condition on it. Period.

YES!!! Yes! Great! It's about time priests, ministers, rabiis, mullahs, imans, monks, bishops, popes, et al, grew some hair and came out from under their rocks. Why is the world so filthy and screwed up? You bet! That Old Devil is out and about screwing up everything and everyone. If there really is a God, why aren't these servents serving and doing what's right and proper? Sheep are going to scatter when shepherds are out and about mollesting children, having affairs with the wives of members, not visiting the sick and poor, and doing all kinds of things they ought to burn for. And about that IRS rule. I, for one, think it ought to be reversed; any religious who isn't raising holy damnation about what's wrong ought to be taxed at the level of 99% of earnings and handouts. Everything that's wrong with this country can be traced to weak, incompetent, sleezy, worthless clergy of every faith (some even like to encourage their faithful to blow up World Trade Centers). If you need specific proof of how bad things are, look at California; everyone of those illegals (75% of the population) went to church before crossing the border into the USA, now they don't see the inside of a church unless they're hiding from Immigration Agents. It's about time someone started acting like a believer. Congratulations Padre! Give 'em hell!

The RCC knows that voting for Obama is much worse than sexually abusing a child or than covering up for a child abuser. They (the RCC) has their priorities and number 1 is to protect the priests, bishops, archbishops and cardinals regardless of what it takes and regardless of their crimes.

"I'm tired of people saying religion has no place in law or governance."

Fine. Move to Pakistan, you'll love it there.

Obama support of Stem cell research is demonic as his support of Abortion
If this is his agenda- then McCain never stood a chance.
Stem cell research is not new
in the days of Noe- it was practiced
Taken from the Hebrew nephel - an abortion also means a stem cell

There's two things goin' on here. One is that this priest, rightly, has to tell his "flock" that they are in danger under the current rules of the church. The second is that he did it in written form which is why you're reading it.

This is not saying that they can't vote for Obama. They didn't know about the church's outdated and arbitrary rules. He's just telling them to get right with G-d before they do something potentially fatal to their souls.
He's just doing his job. Bravo!

As far as the arrogance of te church to think they know G-ds plan about abortion though, that's another issue. G-d is not stupid. He knows if a fetus will be terminated. He would not put a soul into one that will never be born. The church needs to get over itself and let G-d do the judging.This priest would be free to tell his congregation that they may do anything they want and the church has no stand on this at all. to take a stand, in this case, is a sin of pride. IMHO!

Dear Plaza: Pakistan HAS a religion. It's called ISLAM, you moron!

I guess molesting innocent children is ok. The Church transfers the molester to another church to continue his sinning. But hey they still get there communion. Newman you are not GOD to be denying communion and you are a shame to the word of GOD. Abortion has been around for a long time. Now you are with holding communion. When a person dies they will meet there maker and receive judgment. Newman you are not the maker or should you judge. That’s GODS job… It also amaze me how the word of GOD can be twisted to benefit there needs or beliefs.

LOL and this coming from a priest within the Catholic religion who is famous for molesting little boys and then having the church move the priests and protect them.

Go fondle some more boys. Oh and as to god, oh well I dont believe in your lies and your imaginary play friend that so many adults like to buy into.

@MSMITH97

"G-d is not stupid. He knows if a fetus will be terminated. He would not put a soul into one that will never be born."

That's a new one. Is that how you justify it?

Doesn't God also know if a person will be murdered? Are all those people soulless zombies? Or does God take back their souls moments before they are killed?

God gave us free will. If we choose evil, he will not stop us.

Plaza0433, I meant that our legal system and codes are based upon Scripture generally, and the Ten Commandments in particular. If you don't believe me, run down the Big 10 and see if you don't see some parallels.

By the way, your children and wife are safer in Pakistan than they are in the U.S., even with the problems they're currently going through in that country, because they stick to their "backward" religious codes better than we do here.

If you follow church doctrine strictly, maybe this priest is right.

So I have a theological question. The civilian body count in Iraq is approaching 100,000. (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/)

It's an illegal and immoral war based on lies.

Now some of those killed are children, pregnant women and their unborn, old people, the disabled etc. An WE (the good guys) are doing all this killing, without a plan to knock it off anytime soon.

Why do most people of faith never take a stand on this issue. Is that not hypocrisy? Why should we respect an easily held article of faith that is not professed with integrity?

I've also wondered about the landmines WE (the good guys) leave behind to again blow the limbs off the innocent.

I know you believe G-d and Jesus understand, but I don't know why you would be so certain of that.

one more or my entire day is going to be spent looking for arguments on news forums...

@notheophobe

i think the giant difference between anti abortion and pro choice people is that pro choice people believe that there are times places and circumstances where babies just should not be brought into the world. nobody wants to hand out abortions with a free carwash afterward. there are no pro abortion people. what is important is to have a choice. a choice to not have a baby if your raped by your step father. a choice to not have a baby when you have no job or insurance and the father is not around (we have enough homeless people crack heads prostitutes etc from broken/non existent homes without going out of our way to make more) a choice to not have a baby if your life is endangered by the pregnancy, a choice not to have a baby if it will be horribly handicapped and disfigured, a choice to not have a baby if you dont have the means to take care of it. I know 2 girls that have had abortions (one because she was raped, one when she was 17 and a baby would have just not been a good idea)and from what i've seen is its never a light decision. its not "oh i think im going to go get the abortion because i dont want to put on weight" its a traumatic life altering perception changing event, and if someone is willing to go through that THEN THERE IS A GOOD GOD DAMN REASON for it, and they will have to live with that decision for the rest of their lives. and the last thing these women need is the threat of eternal damnation on top of it.

/endrant

Oh. So VOTING pro-choice is a mortal sin, but the Church will take my donations anyway?

I believe we Catholics should expand this worthy edict so that it includes those who've

* had or performed abortions
* used contraceptives
* supported the death penalty
* fought or advocated for war and
* engaged in or associated with homosexual pedophiles

This way we can pare our ranks down to only the "true" believers. It'll kill the coffers, but then again there won't be many left in the pews care for.

Time for another Reformation.

All of this mumbo-jumbo just infuriates me.

As the sign in Dublin said, "Keep your rosaries off my ovaries."

First you build a myth and then erect an institution around it, write and rewrite rules, hire people to become the "holy men" and mess around in people's lives.

What Mae West said could clearly be applied to religion: Goodness had nothing to do with it.

You anti-Catholic people have nothing to be smug about.

Corruption, hypocrisy, obedience, blind faith etc. you find it in other Christian faiths as well. And many of you venerate your church and political leaders just as much as some Catholics venerate the Pope.

Burn baby burn! Keep up the 'burn for all eternity' rhetoric. Nothing pushes people from The Church faster. Nothing marginalizes religion faster than aggressive moralizing. Bring on the outraged religious believers rioting in the streets. Maybe that's what it will take to get people to stand up to those who want to impose their own narrow religious agenda on an increasing secular world. Go ahead, scream and yell. bring on your own demise.

Amen Mullett, those were my thoughts exactly when I read the article WWJD

Does this priest realize that a vote for McCain would have resulted in a vote for someone who killed in Vietnam? Does he not realize that? Is he that daft? How bout all them good men and women who have fought and continue to fight the wars that the US government sets in action (who kill in these wars), those good men and women who we are proud to say we are red blooded Americans who support them fully??? definitely, many of them who are in combat and kill another human being, HAVE to be denied an open door to Rev Jay's church and they all should wear a RED M letter stuck to their forehead so as to be seen and spotted a million miles away. But also, don't forget their parents and families and friends, they all can't be walking through the doors without THEIR red letter M on their forehead either, having supported US soldiers who kill. Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney who set up this last blast to war and all those who support this war have to have the doors closed to them, too. How about that good old Bush and Cheney and cohorts who signed us up for these wars, how about THEM? Give them their red letter M. Gotta include ALL the dirty and soiled people in this almighty righteousness....to be fair. And you have to include all the young women in your parish who've had an abortion (OF COURSE! DUH!) along with their parents and relatives and friends and counselors, the doctors, the receptionists, the nurses, the babysitters who watch the kids of these people, the architect of the buildings these people reside in, the contractors who built the buildings from the ground up, the car dealers who sold these despicable people the cars to travel in to get to the clinics, the car companies for having sold a car for them to buy, and oh, so many more people....not many will be left to attend services at Rev Jay's place.

How does Rev Jay go about in determining who is a non-deserving Obama voter? Voting privelages are supposed to private. How does he find out? Catholic guilt? All the red letter Obama voters just up and tell him they are guilty sinners who have committed a mortal sin by voting Obama? Talk about Catholic guilt in action, wow! There must be a way that Rev jay determines the guilty thereby making sure he doesn't defile his own delicate and all deserving hands. Does he THINK Mr. McCain never killed anyone in Vietnam? Bombs don't drop just to create pretty holes in the surface of the earth. Does he believe that a vote for McCain would have been a vote for white purity?
Really, personally, I have never had an abortion and never would have had one if put up against that choice and that's just me. Others have their reasoning and their own lives that they live with til they die.
The MAIN point is: who cares about his REASONING for condemning, but we should VERY MUCH CARE about his righteous ACT of publicly condemning others and his voicing of such an act. He's just another power hungry human carrying out judgment to attack other human beings.

@KBENOBI

"I believe we Catholics should expand this worthy edict so that it includes those who've

1) had or performed abortions
2) used contraceptives
3) supported the death penalty
4) fought or advocated for war and
5) engaged in or associated with homosexual pedophiles"

1) already does - automatic excommunication until repentance (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2322)

2) has always been a mortal sin (CCC 2370)

3) As I stated before, "The traditional teaching of the Church DOES NOT EXCLUDE, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, RECOURSE TO THE DEATH PENALTY, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor." (CCC 2267)

4) All war is not condemned by the Church, though there are "strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force... The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good." (CCC 2309)

5) "Homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered," and "contrary to the natural law." (CCC 2357) "Homosexual persons are called to chastity." (CCC 2359) Homosexuals "must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided." (CCC 2358)

"1) already does - automatic excommunication until repentance (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2322)"

Excommunication? LOL!

Catholics should welcome excommunication - it gets rid of the middlemen between the believer and salvation. ;)

5) "Homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered," and "contrary to the natural law." (CCC 2357) "Homosexual persons are called to chastity." (CCC 2359) Homosexuals "must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided." (CCC 2358)

also known as the "we cant stop playing with little boys clause"

Right on Kris! Period. End of discussion. One more time just for emphasis:

"We are saved thru faith in God and by his Grace alone - no priest, pope, bishop, or anyone else in mankind can put any sort of condition on it. Period."

Forget the opinions! This is the core issue like I said in my previous post. This is about our beliefs, as Christians and our understandings of our faith, FIRST and FOREMOST. Opinions come second. When you state your faith in the same God and Christ I believe in, I expect to be on a similar page. The above post, I feel that this clergy should have known better to make the statement that he made. Not for his opinion, but implying that he has authority in between the relationship of any individual and God through Christ over the individual's actions. That's not in my Bible, and so I'm just not understanding where he's getting that. Voting issues are secondary issues, but the primary issue is with what this man is telling people which is not consistent (to my knowledge) with Basic Teachings of our Christian Faith.

For the record, I don't support abortion, and I believe life begins at conception. My vote was not based on abortion because I do not believe it is my place to take a political stance over the personal choices of individuals. I won't vote on it, but if I will get PERSONALLY (not politically) involved to do my best to form an actual supportive relationship (like my Christ did and therefore I desire to be representative of my Christ as a Christian although we are saved ONLY by the act of acceptance and submission to God through Christ -not by this here clergy). There are issues that I prioritize as a ground, community operation, such as abortion. There are other issues I prioritize that involves fighting for what is right and fair. I am not anti-Catholic, but I stated I am a non-Catholic Christian and therefore I am ignorant to Catholic Church practices. There are Catholics who understand The Faith as I do. I simply state that I do not understand where this particular clergy got the idea that he has the authority he states which is not consistent with the very faith I believe in.

How ridiculous and divisive! No one is pro-abortion. No woman wants to get pregnant to experience the joy of having a fetus sucked out of her uterus. What a lot of drivel! Obama is pro EDUCATION. Let's get the morning after pill available to all and this issue goes away. But they don't want that do they? Kind of forces them to relinquish control.
No priest nor preacher nor pastor can take away the salvation of our savior. Not yours to grant or deny. This is what you get when you put middlemen in the mix. It's gets all screwed up.

To clarify my previous comment...i really have no problem in what this holy man decreed. it affects NO ONE other than Catholics and only exists ONLY within the narrow confines of a religious ritual. My arguement with Catholics all along has been that they can do whatever they want to punish those who do not follow the abortion edicts of the Church as long as they do so WITHIN THE CONFINES OF THE CHURCH and stay out of the secular law of the land.

That is exactly what this ruling does. I say fine.

The fact is that there are significant portions of the population across the faith spectrum who do not regard the fetus as a human with the same right to life as, for example, an Iraqi civilian.

We cannot allow this religiously motivated intrusion into the uterus. First they say "abortion is murder"...next they will say the "IUD is murder"...eventually perhaps "condoms are murder".

Sex is the agenda...not life.

enaughton27

You wrote, "Mr. Waters, a priest does not speak for a diocese. Consult the bishop. End of story."

A bishop may speak for a diocese but that does not necessarily mean that he speaks for God.

The clergy should think about "PROCLAIMING THE GOOD NEWS" instead of trying to run other people's lives.

Considering that some of the clergy don't have a clue what the "Good News" is then they should at least administer the sacraments rather than denying them.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

Life is from conception to a natural death according to our Holy Roman Catholic Church and no matter how hard a person or persons try to rationalize "choice" as a right; ending life is not your right.

God did indeed give us "free choice" but when you come to your end and you have not "worked, above all, with purity of intention, and with detachment from self, having always death before my eyes and the account which I must render of time lost, of talents wasted, of good omitted, of vain complacency in success so fatal to the work of God" we will pray for your mortal soul while you roast in hell.

Oh, and for the agnostics and atheists who don’t believe; why are you so upset if you aren’t a believer?

I think this is the sort of priest Dostoevski was thinking of when the he wrote about the Grand Inquisitor in the "The Brother Karamozov."

This really concerns me as a catholic. This can of hypocritical talk form the church just makes me second guess the religion I’ve chosen. Why hypocritical you ask? Let’s take an example of a Church in the Heights of Houston, TX, which has a prominently gay catholic community in it. The church serves them communion and ALWAYS veers away from any anti-homosexual talk within the liturgy, initial confirmation for our children, and RCIA. Why do you think this is; because they get tons of support from the gay community in volunteering and especially donations?

So I assume if St. Mary's Catholic Church is turning down communion to those sinners that voted for Barrack (like me), the they can’t take their sinful donations as well. Right?...doubt it.

"Oh, and for the agnostics and atheists who don’t believe; why are you so upset if you aren’t a believer?"

Because people stood by and watched Hitler spread his B.S. So it's important for everyone to point out the evils of a cult like the Holy See.

"Life is from conception to a natural death according to our Holy Roman Catholic Church and no matter how hard a person or persons try to rationalize "choice" as a right; ending life is not your right."

Are you sure it's not 'our' right to end life? We do it all the time in war. Many, many innocent lives.

And I know you allow yourself to rationalize this 'choice' because G-d et. al. understands your reasoning.

Even if it's an illegal and immoral war based on lies.

Therefore no outrage about this.

It must be nice to have a belief system that is so, um, 'flexible'.

I live in a small rural community in northern New Mexico and had been a Catholic all of my life until the priest at my church said the same thing about voting for John Kerry in the 2004 election. I quit going to church. Newman's church and any other church that attempts to dictate how their parishoners should vote should be stripped of their tax-exempt status for violating the separation of church and state. Membership is shrinking in the Catholic church and the Republican party. I think the American people are recognizing the hypocrisy of both.

typical Christian hypocrisy. Molesting young boys is a mortal sin if you want to start looking at sinners, go get a mirror "father"

Oh, and for the agnostics and atheists who don’t believe; why are you so upset if you aren’t a believer?

Less upset more irritated at the idea that because you have some distorted world views they have to be shoved in my face like they actually matter. all that nonsense you just spouted means nothing outside of your tiny closed minded little social circle. I feel the same way about religious zealots as i do 2 guys having sex. I could care less what you do, just dont make me listen to it.

There may be Christians who can vote for a pro-choice candidate with a clear conscience. I am not one of them. If you call yourself a Christian, you are accountable to God for your vote (not to me, or to Rev. Newman, but to God). The problem is that too many of us no longer fear God.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.

Likewise, since your priest or pastor is accountable to God (not to you), his job is to tell the truth as revealed in scripture, not to pretend that every decision you make is morally acceptable.

Well, let me suffice it to say that I have been a born-again Christian, raised in an Assemblies of God church, AND ONLY I WILL DECIDE WHAT IS BETWEEN ME AND GOD!!!

Newmexmom, good for you to stick to a solid set of morals and great that you still believe, even if only solitarily now. A church roof above one's head does not a moral person make. I believe in what another poster said....there is no one between me and my G*d. There have been too many examples of trusted people screwing up and breaking trust, an inherently human condition, for me to believe that someone LIKE Rev Jay doesn't have his own skeletons in the closet, being human and all that.

As an ex-catholic, I am again reminded why I have no interest in having a person dictate morality to me.

Hey Jay,

A zygote has the intelligence of a fly. Is it immoral to kill a fly? Is it just as immoral to masturbate and let sperm die? Why don’t you conduct regular vigils for all the dead sperm and dead eggs in the world? Sperm and egg join! Miracle! No. Reproduction. There is little difference between humans and other higher organisms. All such animals are sentient beings. We only have more rights because we are smart enough to slaughter them.

Your life is dedicated to celebrating a Santa Claus, a myth. The idea of god is asinine. There is no wizard in the clouds that judges or does anything for that matter. Do Greek gods exist? How is yours any different? The good book gets it right when is says dust to dust. But it should stop there. We are nothing more than intelligent organisms that will die just like other organisms. And that is the end of it. There is no incarnate soul that drifts up to heaven.

You preach ignorance. You are a stop in the progress of this nation. Yes religion has benefits. It’s organized it preaches looking out for your fellow man. It brings people together. It helps forward society through cohesion. But when religion holds on to silly atavisms like the right to life, religion has a negative effect. The same absurdity lies in total denial of pleasure and in abstinence. Such backward practices are what drive so many of you men of the cloth to molest children. And you say that homosexuality is unnatural? Molesting children is unnatural.

I feel sad knowing that there must be so much conflict in your head. So much cognitive dissonance in knowing that you just repeat lies of the existence of a god and of the absurdity that a woman should not be able to control her own body. Truth, man! Haven’t you ever looked for the truth? Even mother Teresa started to get a glimpse of truth toward the end of her life. She knew how absurd the idea of a god really is. You can bury your head in the sand and ignore science, ignore math, ignore your own rejection of other religions but not your own, but such ignorance will not make a fairy tale true.

May the word of “god” lead you to see the light of his own nonexistence.

This priest is absolutely right and the pro-abortion crowd hates him for it. God bless him. The Church has always stated, and he is pointing this out, those who support evil with their votes join in that evil.

Yes, dear ones, there is a connection between who you vote for and what they vote for. Obama said he would sign the Freedom of Choice Act, well, that is a pro-abortion bill. You are supporting abortion if you voted for him. You joined that evil.

That's what Church is. That is where people go to learn about good and evil. Oh, you thought church was where people went to hear only gentle platitudes and blah, blah, blah. Not that there are consequences for the choices we make in life. Crazy priest. What was he thinking.

God gave us free will. This priest, God love him, is just pointing out that some people are simply choosing Hell.

@agentlemon:
"a.k.a. Can't Keep Our Hands Off Little Boys" clause... AMEN.

@jckapla:
Thanks for the moral citations. I feel more saved already. Be nice to see the Church follow it's own advice however.

Anyway, what about the Reformation, Your Quoteness? Anything in your Cannon reference library about that?

And, yeah....like Catholic priests have a lot to talk about, huh? I think you should go take a look in the mirror once again, as I think molesting children points a whole lotta fingers back at you!!! Hypocrites....

The Rev. Newman should review carefully the positions of each candidate before he declares which one supports a "mortal sin". The Reverend would be consistent if he were to also include the Death Penalty on that list, in which case neither candidate would have met that standard.

Every parishioner with their behind in a pew on sundays materially cooperates with intrinsic evil because they are supporting an organized criminal child rape cult. Their presence and donations validates and keeps RCC Inc in operation.

Child rape is not a sin according to RCC Inc because born children are "guilty" and little smears of cells are "innocent" - until those cells make contact with their mother's blood and vagina, which seems to be how original sin is transmitted, as they don't seem to think that fertilization transmits it (if so, then it would come from male sperm, and males are godlike and females are demonic).

The central myth of christianity begins with the rape of a young girl by a pedophile god. It's just that it's been prettied up with angels and bright light and lalalas and harp music. In addition, she had been sold into temple slavery by her parents, and young acolytes of *any* religion are there for sexual exploitation by their priesthoods. Those who would believe that they represent this god on earth feel the right and obligation to emulate him by raping as many children, *GIRLS* as well as boys, as possible.

The central metaphor of RCC Inc is their god as a shepherd and humanity as sheep. Anyone who knows the *reality* of animal husbandry is that shepherds do not love their sheep - they *own* them and buy and sell them for fun and profit. The true relationship of the shepherd to the sheep is fleece 'em, screw 'em, kill 'em, eat 'em. This is what RCC Inc does to the sheeple - fleece 'em of money, sexually exploit them, then destroy their lives and consume them and throw them away in the name of money and power. Yeah, real benevolent and holy.

I am a *female* clergy sex abuse survivor. No one cares about girls who are raped by priests, only boys. Not only is it not a sin to rape children, but girl children are specially selected by satan to seduce and defile the special male holiness of catholic priests (even baby girls). There is no sin because children are seen to automatically give consent, especially girls, who are tools of the devil in this scenario. Boys are not seen to be seducers of their priest rapists, and our misogynistic society can't conceive that boys ever give consent while automatically assuming that girls always do give consent to rape. I was five when a priest grabbed me at a CYO camp and had his hands all over me and inside my clothes, but you see, I tempted him with my feminine and childlike perfect and demonic beauty to be defiled by touching my young female body. This is what RCC Inc believes. This is why female survivors speak out in fewer numbers than male survivors - we know there is no point and that the public will sympathize with males while reviling females. However, the stats are out there that females are abused by priests in roughly equal numbers to males.

Catholics, suck on that a while. Consider what penance this priest would require of you for supporting Obama - perhaps your penance would be for you to give the priest sexual access to you or your children. I'm sure a few hail mary's aren't going to be enough to absolve you of your thought crime against the god of pedophiles. Besides, your vote cannot be rescinded and so you have placed yourself in a permanent near occasion of sin until you join the republican party and vote only for republicans in the next available election.

I hope Obama's Attorney General looks into the federal crimes committed by 2/3 of the American bishops (conspiracy, obstruction of justice, aiding and abetting, human trafficking, violations of the Mann Act, complicity, RICO, etc.) and prosecutes them (the pedophile priests are sick, but the bishops are sick sociopaths and even more criminal). I hope the IRS removes the 501c3 status from the whole of RCC Inc in the U.S. and that catholics learn that they don't need priests to make contact with the divine for them.

RCC Inc is worse than the Mafia. The sheeple must wake up and stop being slaves of these criminals. BTW, you can write the diocese where you were baptized and have your baptism rescinded. This is a great message second only to withholding money from the collection plate or just leaving altogether.

You know....the fact is....life is just NOT black and white....it's all shades of gray....and it's messy. No one would 'want' abortion. I learned this when I found out at the age of 35 that I was carrying a child who would be born with Down syndrome. Even as a born again Christian, I can honestly say that it challenged my own faith. However, what came out of it is that I realized that only I can make that decision for myself; I cannot make it for others.

All comments concerning abortion or other acts condemded by the church are based on biblical findings, as is the religion in general. The heads of that church, when making their statements are assuming then that we should believe the bible and all facts therein are truth and actually took place.

There is no proof one way or the other that any of the religions bases are indeed factual. They are all built on faith and belief. Because of this, it is not the right of any religion to force their way of life on another person, and therefore should not be telling a country how to govern based souly on religious beliefs.

I concider myself a christion, but do not feel I have the right to force another soul to follow what I think is right or wrong. I may teach what I believe, but it is every persons choice to follow or go their own way. A higher power will judge when the day of reconing comes.

Church and state should remain seperate.

YUMLICK23 AND MYVOXPOPULI,

Having a hard time staying “on topic” are we?

The topic is not allowing someone who “says” they are Catholic from receiving communion if they are in a state of sin, not all the worldly issues committed by men and women of the past and present.

If you are a Catholic then BE a Catholic. If you don’t want to be a Catholic then quit.

The off-target hammerhead other issues you bring up aren’t related. We were attacked on 9/11 and we all jumped on that wagon.

20-20 hindsight later showed we made some very big mistakes and just as with Viet Nam, when enough people say enough, it will end.

The churches and faiths of the world are made up of humans and we are weak, greedy and foolish, most of the time but, there is too much good being done by “them” to ignore the fact they have value.

Abraham, Muhammed, Moses, Jesus and other prophets have had their words abused, misinterpreted and misused by humans.

Pick your poison but when you join a club you should follow the rules.

I do truly believe that killing a baby is wrong and evil.

Every Christian who voted for any Democrat, is guilty of the sin that that democratic politician has signed onto. Your vote is your testimony that you support infanticide (abortion) and the "gay agenda" (Antichrist religion).

To the Methodist who boasted anyone may take communion with him: "Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord." 1 Corinthians 11:26

If voting for Barack is evil because he is pro-abortion, then tell me this, is it okay to vote for someone who completed 22 bombing mission's in Vietnam as an Air Force pilot? Would have been more but the 23rd time got him captured. Murder is okay as long as is it for war, molestion is fine as long as it is the priest that touches you, lies are good as long as its the Catholic Church telling them, but voting for Obama will cost you money because you now need to pay the Church to go through the whole communion process to be forgiven again.
Priests are overpaid, hypocritical people who only spread their own word and spend every day wishing they were gods. I am Catholic, but I hope the religion takes a turn or else they might as well put their hands out and hope they can get some bailout money too, because they are going to need it with fakes like him.

notheophobe wrote: "...I meant that our legal system and codes are based upon Scripture generally, and the Ten Commandments in particular. If you don't believe me, run down the Big 10 and see if you don't see some parallels."

Lets see...

1) You shall have no other gods before me.

Nope, not in American law anyway.

2) No false idols.

Nope. In fact, since all religions are allowed, all kinds of false idols are allowed in America and are protected by law.

3) You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.

On the contrary, its protected speech.

4) Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Hmmm, but Catholics keep the day after the Sabbath holy, against the commandment. You might want to check this out with the big guy. And there is no law making it holy.

5) Honor your father and your mother.

Well, no laws except that a parent has rights over the child, so I'll give you this one considing how pooly you are doing at this point.

6) You shall not murder.

Yea, a definite American law, but its also the law in China. Did the Chinese base their law on the bible?

7) You shall not commit adultery.

Well, in the old days, but not today.

8) You shall not steal.

Yup, but again, its the law in China too. Who thought the Chinese based their laws on the ten commandments?

9) You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Yes, this is protected through libel and slander laws though you would not know it considering how many time I heard self described christians bear false witness against their opponents in this election. When Palin said Obama pals around with terrorists, she only mentioned one very old terrorist. Who are the others?

10) You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s."

Well lets see, you can't covet your neighbors house in American law but you can covet his wife. If you coveted his manservant or maid servant you would both be thrown in jail for having slaves, which the bible allows but not American law. The ox, donkey and other possessions are protected through property law, so I'll give you 50% on this one.

So lets see, of the 10 commandments American law codifies less than half of them, and those commandments are also codified in Chinese law bringing to question that these laws came from the bible at all or, more likely, came from human nature. I'll leave that for you to determine. But the 10 commandments seem to have little to do with law, American law anyway.

Cheers, TIMMAW82

God did not create humans; humans created God. However, we are, at least in this nation, slowly but surely reaching the realization that we no longer really need our god, so we are beginning to phase out an obsolete idea. We are beginning to realize that the set of beliefs humans formed long ago and called Christianity make up a mythology--just like that of the Greek gods.

I am not being hateful, though some of you will think so. I do not think less of anyone who still feels like they need religion or a god. I readily admit that religion does serve some positive functions in our society. I simply think, as I said, that we are getting to a point as a society where we are **beginning** to recognize this as a mythology like any other.

I am glad. Look at how much suffering, anger, and intolerance has come into the world in the name of "God." I'm glad people are increasingly beginning to get the sense that it just isn't worth it.

I am not a member of any religion, my bible tells me that with christs death the word was taken away.No church on earth is from god.His church will only come with the destruction of this world and all its hipcrosities. This is what i am waiting for....I pray to god alone, no man can tell me what he says. The catholic priest was wrong.Every religion, whether you have been baptised or not requires you to be rebaptised. hmmmm I can only be baptised one time,otherwise i would be putting more pain on jesus on the cross.
god has protected me through many trials and i thank him everyday for his blessings. i dont need a priest of preacher to decypher the bible, because remember he gave us freewill and the intelligence to know. I am not an atheist because i believe in god and christ. Soon we will all know the truth.

First, I would like to respond to the person who wrote, "Oh, and for the agnostics and atheists who don’t believe; why are you so upset if you aren’t a believer?"

I am an atheist and I am upset by this priest's position about those who voted for Obama. Although, atheism is very comfortable for me, I do not believe that that is true for most other people. I choose what is right for me and others choose what works for them. However, I find this priest's position to be very disturbing because he is condemning his parishioners without finding out more about how they came to their decision to vote for Obama. For many Catholics, abortion is not the only sin. I will provide a few examples of many. Is this priest as concerned about the genocide that is occurring in parts of Africa? I believe, as do others, that Obama will be more effective in ending the these atrocities. Is this priest concerned about the torture of prisoners under U.S. custody? There are many who believe that Obama will reclaim the United States' moral leadership. Is this priest concerned about those Americans who die because they can not afford health care? There are many who believe that Obama will do more to insure that all Americans will have health care. Deciding who to vote for for President is a complex decision. To reduce it to one issue is unfair to those of us who think hard about this very important decision. And I feel for the parishioners who now feel condemned for making a difficult choice.

For those who think that clergy sex abuse ended in 2002 with the scandal in Boston, please refer to http://www.bishop-accountability.org/AbuseTracker/ for daily news about abuse by catholic and other clergy. It has NOT ended. A bishop in MN recently shipped a priest to South America to avoid prosecution after that priest raped a *three-year-old* girl. Then the bishop started a whispering campaign that the girl's mother seduced the priest and pimped her child to him. It hasn't stopped, it will never stop as long as RCC Inc exists (and other oppressive and high-control misogynistic religions).

When someone rapes already-born children and ruins their lives (even driving them to suicide), they are not pro-life in any sense. Preserving blastocysts at the expense of the safety of living children is not pro-life. So-called pro-lifers have even said that given the choice of rescuing either a tray of frozen embryos from a fire or rescuing a six-year-old girl (assuming they can't rescue both and must choose one), they will choose the tray of embryos over the girl child every time.

Pro-blastocism is what was practiced in Romania (a communist country) under the Ceaucescus - women were forced to submit to monthly pregnancy tests and forced to bear at least four children by their government. I guess the pro-lifers want to live in a communistic theocracy. I guess this means that pro-lifers are communists...

They certainly don't resemble anyone who believes in democracy and freedom...

you know, i believe killing a baby is wrong as well.

that's one of the main reasons why i think we should not be so quick to go to war.

* * *

yes, there was indeed an attack on 9/11.
but it didn't come from iraq (still amazed that some people didn't know that. i know george w. told you it was, but he's one of them lying christians.)

A few of the posters here seem to be misguided on one thing. The Church has stated that Abortion is the greatest moral concern facing the Church among all of society's problems and evils due to the sheer enormity of that evil. The intentional killing of innocent children

Approximately 40 million unborn children have been killed in the United States since the "right" to kill an unborn child was somehow found in our constitution.

The enormity and gravity of this evil makes it of graver concern than the death penalty, poverty, or Iraq. It does not diminish the importance of these.

"Dear Plaza: Pakistan HAS a religion. It's called ISLAM, you moron!"

No kidding? That was exactly my point. More to the point, religion and the state in Pakistan are mixed well. So for anyone that wants to mix religion and state -Pakistan is their place, as is Saudi Arabia, Iran, any number of places... but not the USA.

A few people are also misguided on one other thing: assuming the church is right.

If you didn't notice, there are a whole lot of people who disagree with the church about abortion.

Catholic priest,
the Pope, the diocese are disgusting. White washed graves, looking all clean on the outside,but full of digusting things inside. How can you be a priest reprensenting a religion that covers up and hides child molesters. How can you be in a religion that supported hitler. How can you claim to represent God when you follow man made traditions rather than what the Bible really says.

I am not a Christian, but I do have great appreciation for the teachings of Jesus. I am saddened by this story and I feel that something important is lost when those in power make pronouncements such as this. Doesn't this priest have poor people, widows and orphans to care for? Aren't those Christian values?

Maybe I'm way off base and should stick to the Tao Te Ching, but don't you Christians see that something is not right about this sort of thing? My understanding is that Jesus taught a message of inclusive love not divisive bickering.

"Plaza0433, I meant that our legal system and codes are based upon Scripture generally, and the Ten Commandments in particular. If you don't believe me, run down the Big 10 and see if you don't see some parallels.

By the way, your children and wife are safer in Pakistan than they are in the U.S., even with the problems they're currently going through in that country, because they stick to their "backward" religious codes better than we do here."

No, actually our legal system has its origins with the pre-Christian Greeks.

OK, so you think your children and wife are safer in Pakistan.. fine. Move there.

As for sticking to their "backward" religious codes there better than we do... LOL! Thanks for making my point for me.

This priest and any other religious leader certainly maintains the right of opinion; however, if pronouncing a church or religious mandate as this priest has seemingly done, then he, his church, and the religion that supports him should be subject to all US taxes that are currently avoided by separation of church and state. I will not pursue, at this time, all of the historical abuse, torture, death, enslavement, and displacement of mankind done, supported or sponsored by Catholic/Christian religions and their followers. Not Christ-like!

I will refrain from enumerating all the many mortal sins of the popes and priests of the Catholic church throughout its history. I only pity those who allow themselves and their children to be indoctrinated by this corrupt and self- aggrandizing criminal enterprise. I can remember my mother leading me by the hand to catechism class to have my brain drilled one-on-one by a priest when I was barely old enough to read. I thank fate that she left the church before he or his associates had the opportunity to drill other parts of my anatomy. It is a sad indictment of our educational system that many parents are forced to send their children to Catholic schools because the public schools are worse (educationally) and they can't afford the tuition of secular private schools.

God bless this priest. He stands up for the Gospel and the world hates him for it. All kinds of vile slander, hate, bigotry, revulsion, lies. Keep preaching Father!

I'm from S. Carolina and this actually made the evening news - this is the Catholic Church in retro-grade....the harder they push ultra-conservative agenda from the Vatican on down, the more marginalized the Catholic Church will become, especially in the USA.

The absolute worst thing the Church and the College of Cardinals has done in a generation is vote Benedict in as Pope - this man and his views will bring the Church to it's knees within the next decade.

His ultra-orthodox, authoriarian views are straight from the Middle Ages - and this is why he was appointed by the powers that be. No wonder Martin Luther left the Church....not that he didn't have his own issues.

Benedict obviously has plenty of clones at his disposal - you've recently heard this same histrionic cant from American Bishops concerning the upcoming Obama Presidency, and now you're hearing from a clerical drone right here in S. Carolina. However, a priest with these views is probably situated in exactly the right state and the right parish for this point of view. Let's remember that S. Carolina is about as red as a red state gets, although the gap was closed considerably this time around. Greenville in the north is McCain/Palin country, period.

Of course this (punitive) view of withholding the sacraments is not new - as we first heard it suggested when John Kerry was running, and supported the pro-choice position.

And you never know, this guy may just lose parishioners to the priest down the street that didn't need to make the nightly news - is Frater Jay Scott Newman bucking for a Vatican promotion, or just stroking the Bishop's robes??

I am a homosexual California voter who supported Gay marriages ban recently as requested by my Priest several times before elections. I guess that was my only hope to get married but I puffed away. Why did I voted to support the banning,simple, the Church insisted. Obedience is a must when it comes to God, and The Catholic Church is Jesus Church, and He is the Son of God and that is when I said I do Jesus for You do not ask for too much and I ask Him for lots and lots of things every day, so I voted againt my only chance NOT to die as an old Maid, Puff! So now I think I will be turning into a secular He Nun. Puff! Oh Dear, What a horrible though, is the last thing I wanted to be in this life a Secular HE Nun! And for those of you that might think that I not in some sort shock after I casted that spell, sorry I mean to say that vote against me getting marrierd Ever,yesterday I wrote a letter to California Governor Arnold S. asking him and the CA Legislation to find ways Tax the churches that operate in California, for they should contribute their fair share to help fund education. The State of California is cutting funding in education and if they have over 35 million in surpluses for advertisement, they can help offset the cost of education. I guess writting to the Governor was my first job after I casted that spell, I mean that vote on Nov 4th that has turned me hoplessly into a Secular He Nun// old maid at 47 I have no hope! Puff! I sorry guys but it was for Jesus, and he id GOD. I do not worry about how will he feel about paying taxes, remember that he sent St. Peter (the one and only who still holds Jesus Heaven Keys) Jesus sent peter to look for Tax money at sea, Peter got the coin from a fish, so money is not a problem when it comes to Jesus Christ.

Talk about playing God. This priest is out of line. He should remain neutral and accepting to all those who come to his church, not judgmental and political. How many child molesters, wife beaters, thieves and adulterers go to his church? How many work in his church? He has placed his own values above God's....that's a sin too. Typical, hypocritical "christian". I think he should be banned from his own church.

I'm so sick of the Catholic church butting in to secular matters. It's no wonder people are leaving in droves and they can't find enough priests. More and more of us are saying no to a medieval theocracy. It's not 1300 anymore you imbeciles.

This makes perfect sense to me. 54% of American Catholics voted for Obama, which means, if we credit Father Newman's theology as valid, that they have committed a mortal sin that without penance bars them from their church's primary sacrament. They probabaly also use birth control, another nail in their eternal coffin. Soon enough they might decide that if they are so damned by their church, perhaps they should look elsewhere for spiritual sustenance and community. Why not, isn't that what happened in the 2008 election to Republicans who woke up to the sad fact that their party had been commandeered by an angry, old, white regional group that no longer had anything in common with them.
One other thing: take a look at the Greenville, SC paper that covered this story. In their forum section, the hot topics currently are (1) Is there proof of God's existence (2) Trial (3) Praise of Ben Stein and Intelligent Design (4) X-Gays lead the way for truth (5) Dead Beat Dads (6) Sarah Palin for Vice President .... Maybe Newman does have the right venue for 16th century religious intolerance.

This is the one of the dumbest and most ignorant things I've ever heard any priest say...My question to this statement is "Does the Catholic church allow pedophile priest receive communion?"
And when did religion and politics become one or anyones business?

I was born and raised a Catholic and was an alter boy molested by my priest (my right hand of God spokesman)and today I refuse to ever enter an church of bigotry and hatred and molestations the rest of my life...

you know what i find halarious is that the people who compose the rightwing and are unrepentant one issue voters and and so passionate about being pro-life are the same people who whine and complain about tax dollars being spent on public assistance programs, who scoff at bums on the streets, who think that "Muslim" is a bad word, who openly and vocally support the invasion of a soverign nation and the murder of thousands of innocent people, and who are utterly oblivious to the poverty and strife that affects most of the world around us.

If these people cared about the lives of real living breathing people half as much as they seemed to care about the unborn ones, the world would be a better place.

In addition, it is very apparent to me that the GOP has no real intention of changing abortion laws, given that they have controlled the legislative branch and the executive branch for 6 of the last 8 years and have done nothing. They just use it as a battle cry to rally the base.

I was raised catholic and went K-12 to a catholic school and this kind of crap is exactly why I have fallen away from the religion. Its blind policy acceptance, and the inability to adapt to the times and embrace alternative methodologies to curb abortion, like sex-education and contraceptive distribution.

On that note, if you want to deal with this issue you have to be willing to make concessions. We saw this election season one of the most agressively pro life talking heads in Sarah Palin. No abortion. No exceptions. Not for rape. Not for incest. Not for the health of the mother. So by her definition it is feasible that you could be raped, forced into a pregnancy, and end up losing your life for that bastard spawn. Rediculous. You have to be willing to conceed some things if you want to make changes. Its the essence of democracy.

The Catholic Church's position on homosexuality is that gay people are "intrinsically disordered."

And yet, the Pope is apparently gay. How do Catholics square that circle?

If you think that voting for Barack is a mortal sin what abot the church's protection of pedophiles and the child abusers in the church we fail to mention that now don't we you spew word of division that is not good those who live in glass houses should not throw stones think about it

The bishops may be exercising a power they no longer have. Most people will probably ignore them. This is not good for those who wish to
keep their people under tight control. We shall see.

Question: How many Catholics who voted for Obama will obey the bishops edict?

Politics and religion. You've messed up a good portion of my early life Roman Church with your do's and dont's . I bought this poop a doo for a long time. Your lack of a good woman in your life father has left you a little skitsey. I go to communion almost daily, sometimes in your church, sometimes at other churches, but mostly at home. I'm afraid you miss the whole point of it. There are several good Christian dating services out there father....Good luck Tony 71

anyone who voted for obama and thinks they are catholic are not!!!
Catholics will take on all the sins of abortion murder of all the babies slaughtered by supporting those who support abortion...
values are values...
also...get the gays out of the catholic Church...

The bishops may be exercising a power they no longer have. Most people will probably ignore them. This is not good for those who wish to
keep their people under tight control. We shall see.

Question: How many Catholics who voted for Obama will obey the bishops edict?

MikeL4 wrote: "God bless this priest. He stands up for the Gospel and the world hates him for it. All kinds of vile slander, hate, bigotry, revulsion, lies. Keep preaching Father!"

And start paying your taxes!

fr the article:

>...Newman is denying communion not to those who have conducted or received an abortion, and not to those who enact laws that allow for abortion, but to those who cast a vote for a candidate who supports abortion rights...

This guy is a nutcase. His bishop needs to be notified, NOW, that this priest is denying Communion to whomever he wants, and he needs to be fired, given 30 minutes to clear out his desk, and be escorted from the building by security. Then a woman could be appointed in his place!

Dwightcollins wrote: "values are values...
also...get the gays out of the catholic Church..."

What about the pedophiles? Just who would Jesus have thrown out of His church? All sinners or just those you do not approve of?

Lets see voting for a pro-abortionist is wrong but voting for Bush who under his guidance we have killed thousands of innocent Iraqi children is right? Talk about hypocrisy, and people wonder why i left the catholic church.....

Observing the tone of these comments leads one to conclude that many of those offended by this aren't within the pale of Christendom to begin with. It's an internal matter between a priest and his congregation, so if you're neither Christian nor Catholic, feel free to stay out of it. If you don't believe, you were never eligible for communion anyway, so what's the harm to you?

The US bishops voted to "forcefully confront" President-Elect Obama about his pro-choice stance. Just what does this mean? Are they going to excommunicate him from a church he doesn't even belong to? Are they gonna beat him with their rosary beads? Are they gonna threaten him with rape? Are they gonna kidnap him, put him on trial for heresy (for being noncatholic and supporting reproductive choice), then burn him at the stake? Are they gonna threaten some kind of economic/diplomatic sanctions against the U.S., thereby extorting Barack? Are they gonna plot to blow up the White House with him in it? Are the bishops saying they are against the laws of the U.S.? Are they admitting to being would-be terrorists? Are they a threat to our democracy? Just *what* do they mean by "FORCE"?

BTW, for those who love Sarah Palin, she set things up so if you're raped in Alaska and go to the police or the hospital, you have to pay for the rape kit yourself - no tax support, no health insurance coverage - out of your own pocket. I don't know how much they cost, but medical tests run into the hundreds of dollars under the best of circumstances, so a rape kit must be comparable (especially because DNA tests are still expensive). So, if you're a poor Alaskan, and you've been raped (male or female), and you're trying to decide between food and a rape kit, then you're not gonna choose the rape kit and your rapist can never be prosecuted without that evidence. Rapists, Alaska is a get-out-of-jail-free state, and Sarah Palin has told you that rape is OK to do there (despite her hypocritical "tough on crime" talk). Let's see all the pedopriests flock there - an all you can eat buffet for them certainly...

GOP - the "party of God" pro-rape party...

"anyone who voted for obama and thinks they are catholic are not!!!
Catholics will take on all the sins of abortion murder of all the babies slaughtered by supporting those who support abortion...
values are values..."\

How about all the fetuses murdered in Iraq - along with the mothers carrying them, their brothers and sisters, parents,and grandparents. I guess they just don't count because they are Muslim.

I suppose the death penalty is also a taboo subject.

Better check some things out, the finger you point may just drip with blood.

I'm Catholic, but I just wanted to thank all of you who posted the messages that said the Church is full of hypocrites and pedophiles. You see, as a Catholic, I know that it is in our nature to want to sin, and that often we will do whatever we can to continue sinning. So when people get angry and post messages calling priests pedophiles and hypocrites in defense of their right to vote for someone who supports laws that result in the death of more than a million innocent American children each year, it only serves to confirm that what the Church teaches is true. Thanks everyone... May God bless you all!

The Obama presidency while it is historic and momentous is supremely demonic in its core believes.
So was Nebuchadrezzer
God will work through him to bring about closure

As for America Obama will destroy it

@KBENOBI said...

"Anyway, what about the Reformation, Your Quoteness? Anything in your Cannon reference library about that?"

I would wholeheartedly welcome a new reformation, though perhaps not in the same way as you. The church badly needs to be pruned before it can flourish again.

I know...we should have gone the Catholic way of just abstaining from voting, ALL of us! since apparently ALL the candidates are going to h*ll in a handbasket for what they've done, who they've known and associated with, for all that they are GOING to do and allow and say and declare from the moment they were born til they die.
Who do we elect? You all have any suggestions since you know who the perfect people are? We need to get these people known, get a double issue of People magazine for all to see the PERFECT people who live on this earth. Let's hear it, you all....who is the person who is perfect without sin among all us evil sinners through association and action, just WHO would you elect????

broknprism asked: "...If you don't believe, you were never eligible for communion anyway, so what's the harm to you?"

This priest is not paying taxes because he claims an exemption, section 501(c)(3) of the IRS tax code, which says he will not participate in politics and by doing that does not have to pay taxes. He just broke that agreement. I'm waiting for his taxes to be used to pay for some public school's that sorely need the money, so yes, it does harm me, by him violating the tax code and not paying taxes.

Tell the Father how you feel!
Go to http://www.stmarysgvl.org/contact#sendEmail
Select Father Jay Scott Newman and send your thoughts.

If you're Catholic and find this type of behavior uncomfortable, I advise you to do a little research on your Religion. In particular study up on why the Roman Catholics split from the Orthodox Catholics. Study it not from Catholic authors, but find references from historians rather than religious slated individuals. I did and I found that the Roman catholic split was to establish a Catholic Religious Emperor (Pope) and an empire equal to that of the Roman Emperor. Ever wonder why Catholic priest used to be married, but now can't. Ever wonder why there is no reference in the Bible of Purgatory or Limbo? The Roman Catholic Church was so corrupt that it opened the doors wide for Luther and the reformation. We have no disagreement on Jesus and his teachings, but all organized religion is flawed in someway or another. Unfortunately Roman Catholicism is a leader in the category of most flawed.

GaryC,

Abortion has nothing to do with "children." Get out of the spin zone.

Yep, and Bush is guilty of nothing. All those people killed and killing in his name. Absolutely resolved from it all. Obama hasn't even taken office yet and you all condemn him like you are on G*d's right hand. What about Bush? Can you tell me his hand is free of inflicted death to another human being using this logic for Obama? NO? Didn't think so.

Please, America, take away this religion's tax-exempt status. It is hideous that taxpayers have to subsidize this rich church which is constantly in our politics and becomes more and more threatening to politicians.

Life begins at conception? How about ectopic (tubal) pregnancies? It's not a simple issue! Enaughton27 is right, the Bishop has the final call in the church. God has the final call altogether and people who speak with absolute certainty for God, like Bin Laden, are always dangerous ...just like this priest!

Gee, I thought "God" chooses all the presidents of the U.S. via supernatural control of the voters to do his Divine Will.

Oh, silly me, he only selects republican presidents, so any democratic presidents must be selected by satan and "God" gets defeated in those elections.

What a wimpy and powerless god abramists worship - he can't even control the country that was ordained by him to have "Manifest Destiny" and "White Man's Burden". He can't even rig an election - and I thought he was capable of all kinds of "miracles".

Oh, but wait, Armageddon will come soon and the democratically elected president will be slain by jebus because he's really the antichrist (not some muslim leader somewhere). What a relief... (sarcasm here)

But, rats, it won't come until the last tree is cut down (according to former interior secretary and fundagelical evangamentalist GOP James Watt), so I guess we have to wait a little longer (all those new environmental policies will keep at least some trees alive well past the Obama administration). The abramic god hates trees and views nature as satan's territory, so any concern for the environment is really satan-worship.

BTW, at least one out of four fertilized human eggs never makes it through gestation, so I guess that means the abramic god is the biggest abortionist of all. Maybe the pro-lifers should go kill him (god) for being anti-life.

President Elect Obama is a wonderful person, and we are blessed to have him as our next President.

I can understand a Republican sour grapes over a Democratic win.

However, slandering a good man like Obama says more about you than about him; it says, "I am a fool."

These holier than thou Christians crack me up, have you ever heard of ANYONE that is PRO ABORTION? That is the most ridiculous term I have ever heard, does that mean that someone who believes in the second amendment (the right to bear arms) is PRO MURDER!?!?!?

Is he a politician or a priest.

I am not a Catholic, so all I can really say w.r.t his theology is that this priest has whatever rights the Catholic Church grants him to interpret scripture, interpret Church teachings, and generally jerk his flock around as he sees fit.

However, I am a U.S. citizen and taxpayer, and I do think we have a right to question where the line is crossed that should deny a "Church" tax exempt status.

We're not just talking about a priest speaking his mind from the pulpit, here. He's not even just "endorsing" a candidate. He's denying his parishioners Holy Communion if they don't vote for the candidate he supports. I, personally, think that way crosses the line into political action that should question the tax-exempt status of his church. Certainly he should be free to follow his beliefs and speak his mind. But we should be free to say "OK, that goes too far w.r.t. your tax exemption." No?

Wow, you're all too hardcore for me on this issue. This is the sort of thing that makes me glad not to be a Christian.

Good luck sorting this out.

Greenville, SC is also home to Bob Jones University - enough said. The prevailing regional mindset should be clear enough - Catholic or otherwise.

It sounds a bit like blackmail to me. Vote the way the Catholic Church wishes, or else....

Yuck.

I thank the Creator that I was not raised Catholic, or evangelistic. Handing over my thought processes to these busy body holier than thou self rightous people would be like living in an fearful hell. Since when do these people hold the keys to hell anyway? Who are they to judge? I believe in spiritual principles, not religious dogma due to situations like this one.

madwoman9 wrote:

For those who think that clergy sex abuse ended in 2002 with the scandal in Boston, please refer to http://www.bishop-accountability.org/AbuseTracker/ for daily news about abuse by catholic and other clergy. It has NOT ended. A bishop in MN recently shipped a priest to South America to avoid prosecution after that priest raped a *three-year-old* girl. Then the bishop started a whispering campaign that the girl's mother seduced the priest and pimped her child to him. It hasn't stopped, it will never stop as long as RCC Inc exists (and other oppressive and high-control misogynistic religions).

Yes,it has NOT ended. And only God knows how far back into history the evil extends.

If people only knew half the truth! And you hit the nail on the head... misogynistic religions.

As a devout young Catholic, alter boy, etc, etc, I helped when our CYO group did a summer project helping demolish a 100 years old nunnery to make way for a new one. This was nearly 45 years ago.

We discovered the skeleton of a baby in a wall. We tried to find the priest, but he was nowhere to be found, so the adult in charge called the sheriff. After about an hour or so, the priest showed up, the sheriff was there, it was a seriously big deal.

Work stopped for the day, and the priest called all of us together and read us the riot act about calling the sheriff and to NEVER SAY ANYTHING to anyone. This macabre event never made the local news either, the fix was in!!!

I can only imagine what the priest told the adult that reported this. Or the sheriff. Probably threatened excommunication if they said anything.

Four more baby skeletons were eventually found in the walls on that site. It was sureal when the priest was summoned to take the bones away. Nothing ever was made public about this as far as I know, it was a small, very Catholic community.

What had happened in that building, when it had happened, how it had happened -I will never know, but now I have a good guess.

The first seed of doubt was planted, although it would take a much more direct experience of the depth of clerical Catholic evil a few years later to finally punch through the trance I was in.

People think the modern church is different from the one that persecuted Galliao, different from the one that staged the Spanish Inqusition.

It is not.

It is only more subtile and sophisticated.

It is structurally corrupt because it is a dictatorship of the first kind, and it is immune from any call for accountability or justice from the mislead lay community.

These clerics, like the Taliban, have one overarching goal: To preserve their power.

All this did not destroy my faith in whatever is behind this existence, it did destroy my misplaced faith in the completely corrupt Catholic Church.

We were all given the ability to choose. Anything or anyone that inserts themselves by means of threats between a persons reasoned and well considered individual choice... and that persons God, -is inserting the first building block of pure evil.

There is a difference between discussion, enquiry, teaching... and dictation.

Wow.. I am just amazed. Reading all of this is what has seriously drove me away from church. For this priest to not give communion to people who voted for obama but will give communion to those who have committed abortion, raped, molested, abused, and what not is just beyond my comprehension. It amazes me that people mix up the fact that Obama isnt about "killing babies", he is about you and I and everyone in the U.S. to have the "right" to chose what they want to do, and I don't think im the only one who agrees that freedom of choice isn't a bad thing. That is what America is about.. freedom.. so if we have to tell some poor 14 yr old girl, that she has to give birth to a baby made by rape and just live with it then our country would be seriously screwed up. I have been raped twice but luckily didnt get pregnant by it.. I know if I had the choice no matter how awful I felt about it, I would have had an abortion... rape is enough damage.. taking away one's choice on how to live their life would just be against all we believe in humanity I feel.

The priest has opened the door to some bad memories for many people. Mine is more humorous than bad. When I was 14-16 years old, a large group of us from a local high school frequented a brothel in Joliet, Illinois. Interested in demographics even then, I asked one of the attractive women in her 20's who it was that frequented the brothel the most frequently. She laughed and responded that it was kids like me and priests!!!! Yep, mystical men of God they are!

As long as this guy is consistant, what's the problem? So if you voted for Bush in 2000 or 2004 obviously you support torture and lying to create war. No communion for you!

The Catholic church is one of the most woman-hating organizations on the face of this planet. Their teachings about birth control and abortion have directly resulted in the deaths of more women than we will ever know. Women are dying today because of Catholic teachings, right now, while you read this. Pro-life my eye; they don't care as long as it's women dying.

The only thing they will not forgive is a woman having an abortion - even to save her own life, even to maintain her own current family. You can be a serial killer, murder a dozen people on a spree, and be forgiven by these hypocrits. You can rape babies, gang rape teenagers, sodomize little boys, and you will be saved. But women must GIVE life against their will or burn in hell forever? (Please, you anti-abortionists, learn just a little biology. A fetus is alive because its MOTHER is, they are not individuals.)

This is not about the sanctity of life. Obviously they don't care the tiniest bit about denying over half the already born human beings in the world the right to life. This is about male domination over women's bodies, and in the case of the church, their souls.

Talk about evil.

Yes Democracy is an aethetic of Christianity.
And Christianity should be thanked for that
they said Christ taughrt Tolerance
But he himself Said _ i came to bring a sword

"If you don't believe, you were never eligible for communion anyway, so what's the harm to you?"
The harm starts when the church starts to politically manipulate in ways that could affect all of us, especially when we "kafirs" reject what that church says.

The deal is each citizen votes their choice, after informing themselves about all sides of the issue.

When the church attempts to subvert that and threatens their followers to vote the church's choice no matter what the individuals choice may be, that becomes a real big problem.

Birth control is the answer to make abortion rare. This respects all people's beliefs and separation of church and state.

Most people do not make the world black and white like this priest. Life is complex. A starving child in New Orleans has more value than a 7-90 day old human embryo. One exists and is it's own person and is suffering. It isn't in the womb of another human being and it is recognized with rights. The other has the "potential" to be an individual child, but it has the thinking process of a tadpole. Yes, you may say all are alive, but they are not the same. These are ethical choices and the ethical understanding and decision tree is different for each person in our country. These catholic priests turn this into a nasty my way or the highway for all situations once an egg is fertilized. Such thinking isn't in the domain of science or ethics, it is entirely based on policies of a church and it's doctrine. It is them and not the Bible that says a soul jumps into a fertilized egg. It isn't based on the Christian bible. It is entirely an interpretation by these medievel men of Rome.

This priest needs to go back to whatever planet he's from.

@mhadawy

Democracy is not an "aethetic" of Christianity. Centuries before Jesus was born there was a form of Democracy in Athens, without the any help from Christianity.

The idea that Democracy can exist with Christianity is offensive.

The Catholic Church along side the Mormons have to be the most disgusting Religions on the face of the planet. In the Catholic Church you can Murder someone everyday and as long as you confess you are "forgiven", these Pedophile Bas--r--s went for hundreds of years with there Pedophilia and not one word was said, and now they want to send someone to hell for someone who believes in rights for others.

Yet this same priest seems to have no problem with supporting candidates that want to continue endless warfare. Bomb and kill innocent men, women and children for the sake of oil under the pretense of lies. Where is the morality, tolerance, love in organized religion? I don't see it.

OH, all you non-catholics and atheists, don't think you're OFF the hook with religious extremists, in this case, catholics. You are the most evil and vile to them because you are not like them at all. Just because you aren't of their religion doesn't mean you aren't part of the overall problem for them. If some of them had their way, you would have the mark of the devil prominently displayed on you at all times.

Dang! And I thought it wuz jest them dirt-eatin', snake-handlin', fundamentalist evangelical we-can't-wait-for-Armageddon clowns who went in for this BS. Nope... I guess it's the WHOLE South...

orionexpress :
The Catholic Church along side the Mormons have to be the most disgusting Religions on the face of the planet. In the Catholic Church you can Murder someone everyday and as long as you confess you are "forgiven"

-- Wow. I'm a church-going Catholic. I must have been sick the day we were told we could do this.

See, Mr. Arroyo? This is what happens when you write half-baked commentaries on the church. You invite the crazies.

Does this priest really think that Jesus would agree with his stance?

"someone needs i lesson in Christianity- christianity was around long before Athens
and Democracy"

So much for "no child left behind."

Does the year 508 BC mean anything to you??

(hint-"BC" stands for Before Christ)

For a priest to require that parishioners who voted for Obama do penance before receiving communion is between him and those people foolish enough to believe the hocus pocus that the Catholic church pushes. That you can somehow "buy" your way out of sin, especially when the sin as been created by church dogma, has always struck me as more a means of control than any interpretation of God's word.

Of more concern are the efforts by the Catholic bishops to put pressure on our President elect. By all means continue to poison your own well but don't try to poison mine!

WELL......THE PRIEST SHOULD GO AND SLEEP.IF HE DOES NOT UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE....IS A GAY MARRIAGE BETTER THAN ABORTION?IN THE BIBLE GOD PERISHED A NATION BECAUSE OF THE ART OF HOMOSEXUALITY AND LESBIANISM...DEAR PRIEST I BELIEVE THERE ARE MORE ISSUES YOU NEED TO ADDRESS RATHER THAN YOU SOUNDING OR ACTING LIKE AN ANTI-CHRIST.LET OBAMA BE!!!!!!

Hey People no problem. Since this priest has now put voting into an issue of salvation in his church he has put his church into another catagory than one that is untaxable. His church can now be taxed as it has firmly went into politics. Let that happen and see how quick communion is restored to everyone.
On another note this is exactly why there was a sepration from the catholic church centuries ago. Some one decided that God could and did speak to all men not just the priest and that everyman could read the Bible and form his own views and relationship with God. Lets just put forth an effort to see that this priest's church loses its tax exeption.

I have great respect for those Catholics who follow Christ's teachings. As an agnostic, I don't understand (and do fear) the logic that any comment or action made in the name of religion can supersede the consensus of law. So, if you live in our country and accept that the majority rule (which the last time I checked this is the case) and our government supports and participates in capital punishment then should you not also refrain from communion??

It baffles me when people (especially priests) think they qualify to receive communion when they do rituals and wash their own sins away. What is the blood of Jesus is for? Folks, believe in Jesus and your sins shall be washed away. Everyone can receive the body and the blood of Jesus (communion), that’s what washes away our sins NOT your own works.

The priest is misleading his followers.

Respectfully, was it not a sin for all those priests, bishops and cardinals who covered up the sins of the pedophile priests? Many children were permanently scarred by these hypocrites.

I find it startling that the very men who can protect their own even against prosecution by law would wag their self righteous finger at the church. Church is made of the people in it. Church is not simply the clerics. Shame on you! Clean up your own rectory before you judge the motives of a person's vote.

Church and State exists for this very reason.

Catholic church....Taliban.
Seems to me all them gods are just about the same.

I am Catholic, female, 49 years old. Tell this priest he's nuts. God Bless Obama. He has no right to judge anyone. Does he deney communion to pedophile priests?

So...who cares about what some Catholic Priest says? They're just a bunch of p-e-d-o-p-h-i-l-e-s anyway.

A Catholic priest in South Carolina has decided that the democratic act of casting a vote is, in some cases, a mortal sin. Therefore, he has decided that parishioners who voted for Barack Obama are not entitled to the grace of Jesus Christ through communion until they've done penance.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What does this priest consider the Catholic Church's handling of the sex scandal including the placement of Cardinal Law in the Vatican as opposed to behind bars a mortal sin as well?

So did this same priest tell the people that voted for McCain that they couldn't receive communion because they voted for someone who advocates WAR??

Guess starting unnecessary wars where innocent people get killed (Iraq) and then getting upset when they try to defend themselves is ok!

The good priest is not saying that "thinking is a sin" as the author suggests. A vote is not just a thought, it is an action. It is an action meant to cause an effect. In this case voting for Obama means a vote to cause Obama's position on abortion to take effect throughout our country.

All the Priest has done is remind his parish what the rules of the Catholic church are. In our church there are different level of sins and prior to the recpetion of communion those who voted for an openly pro-abortion presidential candidate need to confess this sin.

Those who are Catholic understand this and have no problem with it. We may not understand it but that is what the preist is trying to do, explain how to live as a good Catholic. If you do not want to live this way....don't. It is about time someone in the Catholic Church has the actions match their words.

Now the ignorant say the priest is denying communion. Again, he isn't denying communion, he is reminding everyone what the requirements are. You miss mass, get a divorce, steal, adulter...etc. Same rules apply.

Everyone else, stop you anti catholic agenda, its tired and played out and has nothing to do with this story.

Catholics are leaving the church in droves and this one reason why. Does anyone else remember when it was a 'sin' in the eyes of the Church to use birth control? That is when my mother left the church and kept the kids home from reading our bible on Sundays in the living room.

I agree with all who say that the priest has crossed the line into politics. Let's raise revenue by taxing the BILLIONS of dollars of Real Estate the Catholic Church owns if they are going to use it for politics.

That alone will help my local school district pay a few bills - and teach evolution and civics with the church's money.

The WaPo can turn anything into a story, so long as it allows for an anti-religion field day. A single priest no more speaks for the Church than a single gas station clerk speaks for Exxon.

Is it a mortal sin to vote for someone who is against universal health care? It should be.

This priest needs to be sent back to the middle ages where he can live out his teachings. No wonder Catholics are abandoning the church in droves. Since he has appointed himself as God's judge, he is not any kind of example of Christ's teachings. Instead he appears to be a good example of the Anti-Christ.

If this priest’s superiors (all the way up to the Pope) support his political views, then the tax-exempt status of the Catholic Church should be brought into serious question.

Is "outside of the full communion of Christ's Church and under the judgment of divine law," a place where pedophiles can't reach children? Why can't the Catholic Church stay out of politics and work to change its culture of sexual abuse and astonishing hypocrisy? If anything will make a person into a non-believer, this will.

I am suprised how many commentors, and even the author that are ignorant of the catholic faith. Agree or disagree with the priest, fine, but there are so many with no idea what he is talking about.

Boy, am I so very glad that I don't belong to ANY religious organization.

My god doesn't have all these problems, it never wrote down any commandments, nor did it ever communicate with any living human.

It most certainly did not morph itself to be the father, the son, and the holy ghost all at the same time, nor did it ever have sex with a human female named Maria.

Do youselves a favor, abandon religion and live a decent, ethical existance with respect for all life and the environment. You'll be a much happier person.

I guess that all of those people who feel a Catholic should never be in public office because they will be influenced by the Church were right. If I were an American Catholic I would be outraged and demand that the church keep its place and not try to influence voters. This has set back Catholic candidates substantially.

The Catholic church is made up of men and women who are human, and by nature, flawed. This is such a human. The problem is of course, that he has 'power'- real or imagined- over a number of citizens of the United States of America. I propose that unless his Bishop or the Vatican censures these comments, that the Catholic church in the US lose their tax-exempt status, and the revenue from their substantial holdings be used to pay off...oh, I don't know. The national debt? AND the bailout? AND a tax rebate....

Radical Islam/Radical Catholicism- is either one more damaging to the attempt at rational, civil discourse?

when you read about idiots like this, it makes it all the more important that we have separation of church and state. These people will always trade peace and harmony for divisive ideology.

Can anyone tell me where I can get involved in efforts to remove the tax exempt status of the Catholic Church? Or who can be contacted about this? Catholic priests all over this country have either openly or covertly told people how to vote in the last several presidential elections. I am all for their freedom of speech...they should be able to say whatever they want...but it is a clear violation of their tax exempt status and they should forfit their right to tax exemption if they are going to tell the faithful how to vote.

Do the same rules apply when voting for a pro-death penalty politician? I believe the Catholic Church does not differentiate. Then I would guess all who voted for Bush in 04 and 2000 all had to confess their sins.
Again, if you are a Catholic and using the birth control pill..... or anything else other then the rythm method.

By the way, Bishops and Cardinals have also spoken out in the past this way. He is not a rogue priest.

So where were these issues when Clinton was president? This guy is a racist and he is reacting with the hate by attacking Obama anyway he can.

I agree with the priest. Absolutely and wholeheartedly, by the way. It's about time.

Its been brought up a couple times in this list, but it can't be said enough. This is an institution that did nothing to protect children from molestation by pedophiles, even protecting the pedophiles at times. I would imagine a more mortal sin is to sit in judgment with bloodstained hands.

So...who cares about what some Catholic Priest says? They're just a bunch of p-e-d-o-p-h-i-l-e-s anyway.

Catholics and Mormons are not religions, they're simply off shoots of the "religion" Chrisianity and glorified "cults" at that: take away their Non Profit Tax Status as soon as they step into the mundane world of mans Law.

The SC latent pedophilic priest should count his lucky stars and be glad that he's not in California because he'd be prosecuted by the Attorney General for violating the Unruh Civil Rights act for religious discrimination against a member of the public.

I know the hypocrisy of the Catholic clergy first hand as a product of their school system.
I wonder if Reverend Newman has done his penance for his affiliation with an institution that systematically molests children....????

The Founding Fathers had sufficient experience with the Church of England to know they didn't want clergy running their government. And so, separation of church and state became a tenet of the U.S. Constitution. Churches get a deal. They are tax exempt. In return for that, they agree not to meddle in politics. Government agrees not to meddle in church affairs. Those who run churches are free to say anything and do anything short of violation of secular laws. They can even be foolish. What they cannot do is meddle in citizens' civil rights. A foundational civil right is the right to vote as your intellect and conscience dictates. Clergy who choose to interfere can pound sand. The abortion issue revolves around a question that cannot be answered because God refuses to say: When does God put the soul into an embryo? This presupposes there is a God, that there exists a soul, and that the soul goes in at some particular time.

Oh no, no, no... We have more important matters to discuss like our economy. Let's not get dragged down by a religious institution interfering with our secular politics. This is NOT the time for religious issues. I could just as easily say that a vote for a republican who uses our military to kill innocent civilians and children is just as damning.. etc.

Why is it so hard for non Catholics and non practicing Catholics to understand the deep faith of members in good standing within the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church delivers more internationl food and aid than any other organization in the world. Do you hear about that in the news? The Catholic Church Catholic Relief Services has been involved in HIV and AIDS interventions for more than 20 years—almost since the beginning of the pandemic. Do you hear that in the news? No, you hear of the Bad seed priests who will get thier just punishment from God. God is our Church. We believe in the Word of God. We not only believe but the closer we get to God the better we understand his Word. We believe and in our hearts know that taking the life of unborn human beings is wrong. We believe there is no justification for the taking of any life. This is what our Church teaches. The best part of our Church is, if we don't believe in its teachings we are free to pursue another faith. It is the duty of Church leaders to remind us of the politicians who will pursue a course that is in direct conflict with the teachings of our faith. After being reminded of the teachings of our Church, if we still continue to support these politicians, then we are no longer in good standing with our Church. What is so hard to understand. Practice your own faith. You will hear no critsism from us.

before any catholic priest points a finger, they need to clean up their own yard first.

As if!

If little boys could get pregnant, abortion would not be a sin.

There are some "religious" types such as Raymond Ruddy who have made a bundle of cash supporting Bush policies via no bid contacts. I'm sure they would be very grateful to any man of the cloth who can bully his flock into voting for Republicans. This is no doubt about money and power.

Thank God for this priest's comment. All Christians must forget the divisions that keep them apart and band together to protect the lives of the unborn. The "pro-murder of the unborn" folks will never be won over through politics, I'm afraid. They're not all bad people, they're just blinded by the culture of the day. They can only be made "unblind" to the truth of what abortion actually is through some other medium, like art or education. How many abortions were not committed by mons-to-be who got to see 3D sonagrams (please forgive my spelling if incorrect)? We as Christians of ALL denominations must band together to educate. Bravo to the priest, in the Name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

The Catholic church accepts Pedophiles, guess it's ok to be a pervert. But they can't accept black people or the right of a woman to chose what goes on in her own body. Catholic Priests should stay in their tax-free churches & concentrate on saving their own souls and let the normal people alone

A priest can say whatever he or she wishes. But if they tell parishioners how to vote, then the church which houses the pulpit from which they speak should not have a tax exempt status.

For the record, I think it was a far greater evil to start a war in Iraq, then it is to take a pro choice stand. I think it is far greater evil to intentionally and deliberately enact policies that destroy the earth that God gave us than it is to take a pro choice stand. It is a far greater evil to support corporations that are slowly killing millions of people with toxic chemicals than it is to take a pro choice stand. All of these examples constitute material cooperation with evil.

Actually, the more I think about it, we would be a far better society if we took the tax exempt status away from ALL churches. Many members of these churches don't seem to understand the concept of church and state, and don't seem to care that they don't understand the concept.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. First of all, Obama is not pro-abortion, he's pro-choice. He, like millions of others who advocate pro-choice, do not advocate abortions (as pro-abortion implies). He supports a woman's right to chose the best course of action for her & her family, while working to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. Reducing unwanted pregnancies is to cure the issue. Whether or not to have an abortion, post-pregnancy, is to treat the symptoms.

The Catholic church has lost a lot of supporters over the years with their 14th century beliefs. When I was in high school (an all male catholic high school), I was turned off by the unrealistic teachings. Instead of teaching teens about the realities of their sexuality and encouraging them to protect themselves, they taught that the use of contraception was a sin. In fact, having pre-marital sex was a sin. Not only is it unrealistic to believe teens, in general, will abstain from having sex, it's irresponsible not to arm them with knowledge of birth control which will prevent unwanted pregnancies and the spread of disease! I have 2 sons now, and they will learn about sex, health, contraception, etc. at an early age. It's in their best interest.

On another not, there are so many issues and challenges facing us as a nation. It's very short sighted of the church to beleive that people's presidential vote should boil down to only one issue. People are being evicted from their homes. Entire towns are going bankrupt. Young men and women and being sent to die in two separate wars. And we're ONLY supposed to care aobut candidate's positions on abortion rights? Please! And why is the Church getting involved in politics in this way? Trying to scare people into voting the Church's agenda? It's not only dispicable, it's illegal.

George Bush is against abortion, and he's been the President of the United States of America for 8 years. Clearly voting for a President who's against abortion doesn't change the issue. In fact, the last 3 Republican presidents have been against abortion, yet it remains legal. We should not waste our votes on ideals which are rarely, if ever, addressed by the representatives we put in office. Contrast that with war. Between the two Bush president's we've had recently, we've fought 3 wars (and are still fighting 2 of them). Thousands of people are needlessly killed in war. Presidents frequently call upon citizens to fight in wars and rarely do anything to change abortion rights in our country.

Those who voted for McCain are sinners who condemn mass murder.

You have got to be kidding me. A prejudice bigot hiding behind the bible, and his robes. I am not a chatholic but I believe in the bottom line teachings of the Christian god. Love, peace and tolerence is what makes it easier for me to just shake my head and say. "Thank you god, that this man has no influence over me or my children.

I'm not agreeing with the priest, I'm not even christian, but he didn't tell people how to vote, he is just telling them what to do to get square with the Lord if they voted for Obama.

Patfan... Here is the problem with your church ... and you as well.... You stated that you believe there is no justification for the taking of any life yet you are willing to support war mongers... It's interesting how you, and others who believe as you do, so easily overlook that fact.

God help us all.
Here we are, with a historical Black President at the beginning of a difficult financial and international time, already reaching out to John McCain to help us all live together and the Bishop who would be God, is sending us to Hell just like the Pope sent Galileo to Hell for saying that the planets did not revolve around the earth. Soon the Church will be selling Indulgences to get back all the Catholics who will leave the Church. Let he among us who has no sin, abused Altar Boy, illegitimate child, secret retirement fund or racial motivations, cast the second stone. God lives in my heart. Let Him judge me and my actions. Not some deified mortal, driving around in his expensive German automoblile, clutching his Breviary and vial of Holy Water thinking that he is first on line to the Gates of Heaven.

ldthornton wrote:
"I'm not agreeing with the priest, I'm not even christian, but he didn't tell people how to vote, he is just telling them what to do to get square with the Lord if they voted for Obama."

The election is over, but the priest is essentially telling people how to vote going forward. By saying, "Voting for a pro-abortion politician when a plausible pro-life alternative exists constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil...", Rev. Newmann is essentially telling his congregation that they should always vote for the candidate that is against abortion. Period.

So, he's telling them how to vote in the future by telling them not to vote for a pro-choice candidate.

If men got pregnant, no family would have more than one child. And abortion would be a sacrament.

cfjohn99... You say that i'm supporting war mongers. I say I'm suporting not only the liberation of an opressed people but I'm supporting the defense of our own nation against attacks like 9/11 that people like you convieniently forget. If saving the life of an innocent person means taking the life of someone with evil intentions, I have no problem justifing that.

I encourage anyone that has a problem with what this priest and the Catholic Church are doing to go to website IRS Complaint Process For Tax Exempt Organizations:

http://www.irs.gov/irs/article/0,,id=178241,00.html

Unfortunately, this S.C. yokel is not an isolated priest meddling in wordly affairs. From another blog named "Bishops warn Obama":

BALTIMORE, Nov. 11 -- The nation's Catholic bishops Tuesday approved a statement declaring that if the Democratic-controlled Congress and the incoming Obama administration enact proposed abortion rights legislation, they would see it as an attack on the church.

I am sick and tired of these ultra-conservative bible-thumpers, Catholic or otherwise, to shove their so-called morality down my throat. You are against abortion? Don't get one! Let others make the choice for themselves.

The audacity of the Catholic (and other) church(es)to basically threaten American political candidates and intimidate voters is clearly unconstitutional and totally un-American.

Those who agree with these tactics should hang their heads in shame.

The catholic church has lost the little morale authority it has since the execution of Galileo. Now half of it's priest are pedophile. How dare them tell people what to do?

I think this is a violation of the Voting Rights Act. It is a federal offence to interfere with a person's right to vote. I'm not Catholic, but I know many who take their faith very seriously. A threat like this from the church could very well deter parishioners from voting freely in the future.

This priest is more like Jim Jones than he is like Jesus. He doesn't want a parish, he wants a cult. The members of that church should get him out of there before he starts making the Kool-aid and telling them to drink or risk mortal sin.

I think that Catholic voters, and all other voters, too, should ask Catholic candidates for office whether they will represent the people who elect or the Roman Catholic Church as articulated by its priests, popes, et alii.

The message of the Catholic Church to it's faithful followers and it's faithful followers ONLY. Is that supporting any politician who supports or allows(CHOICE)the taking of unborm human life is in direct conflict with the teachings of the Catholic Church. Being a Catholic and supporting these candidates puts these CATHOLIC individuals in a state of sin that requires reconciliation with God and the Church. Only Catholics in good standing are allowed to recieve the Body and Blood of Christ.

How does a Catholic Priest making a simple statement about a moral issue to his congregation have anything to do with the sex abuse scandal? It is a Catholic teaching that abortion is a sin, and this priest simply pointed out that voting for someone who openly supports this sin is a sin in itself. It is not a political issue in this case it is a moral issue. The Catholic Church has been a profound force for good in this world, but liberals are so blinded by hate and their support for continuing the holocaust of the unborn that they can't see the good that the Church does. Sure there have been mistakes made by members of the Church, but it doesn't mean that it's teachings are wrong. The Church provides a moral compass in a world that has willingly abandoned morality. It has become politically fashionable to bash the "Christian Right" for being intollerant, but it is the left in this country that is far more guilty of intollerance. Just read the other responses in this thread and you'll see what I'm talking about.

This is the stuff which gives the Christian right and the Republicans a bad name. But then again, what do you expect from the church whose headquarters in the home of Mussolini. Catholicism. Fascism. Same thing. Christians, beware what is being done in your name. I guess for the Catholic church, nothing much has really changed since the Crusades. It's just dressed in prettier language.

The state of the Economy has apparently not hit his wealthy parish.

The 2nd and 3rd passing of the collection basket will only collect lint for all those altar boy lawsuits.

Guess he'll have to fix those raffles and Bingo nights---maybe even charge extra for the Communion wine and Last Rites. He'll certainly not be seeing any money for new Baptismal Certificates.

Tax the churches.
Tax the businesses owned by churches.

patrick127 wrote:

All the Priest has done is remind his parish what the rules of the Catholic church are.
***

It would be nice if he understood them:

"No matter the intention of the voter, Newman said a vote for Obama is "material cooperation" with his goal of extending the use of lethal violence against unborn children.

Asked if he would actively deny the sacraments to Obama voters, Newman said he won't because the church teaches that no one is denied communion unless it would cause "grave scandal," such as in the case of a notorious public sinner."

Archbishop Chaput makes distinctions between formal and material support for abortion, and within material support distinguishes the degree of support with less culpability for the janitor than the nurse or doctor. It's not all or nothing.

Newman mistakes Obama's position. It is not "goal of extending the use of lethal violence against unborn children", it is reducing it within the constitutional means allowed to the government - while seeing that the constitution is not damaged by the campaign against abortion.

Intent is a vital aspect of sin; but Newman here seems to entirely neglect the intent behind Obama's stance and parishoner's votes.

In short, he illustrates the fallibility of the humans who serve the church.

(My mother had a pastor who emphasized the fallibility of priests and bishops, and asked the parishoners for understanding and prayers - "we really need them!" If more priests shared Fr. Ostick's understanding and humility, many would be more ready to listen to them.)

Welcome to the FREE WORLD. You don't like the FREE WORLD? Then leave.

Reading some of these posts only confirms that the devil realy is living among us!

That's another person I am smarter than :) - a priest. Kewl!!!

"to support Obama is to facilitate demonic engagement"

No, it's worse than that... A vote for Obama is supporting demonic dating prior to engagement, and then demonic marriage post demonic engagement...

Let me tell you my story...

I'm a baker by trade, and consider the butcher a dear friend... He's the kind of guy you like to have a beer with, y'know...? But the candlestick maker...? God... I don't know how that puke came to be in the same tub with us...

Hey, I know what you're thinkin'... Three men in a tub...? Look, we don't live in New York City... There ain't no saunas around here that I know of, so we would all get together and take a hot soak... Some bread, some beef... Nothin' weird about it at first, so I didn't think it all that fruity just because dude wanted to bring candles to the party... I mean, that's his profession, right...? Who am I to judge...? But we're all sittin' in the tub, candles aglow, and Mr. CandleStick Maker tells me that his daughter is gittin' married, and that he wants to order a DEVIL'S FOOD CAKE for the reception... Yes, weird, but I just thought it was a matter of poor taste... PWT, know what I mean...? Never pegged his girl to get married, though... One of those "goth" chicks... Black lipstick and pierced everywhere, but I always considered it harmless... Butcher's oldest kid did her before he left for Iraq and said she was quality meat... So she found some guy with a green mohawk to give the kid a name... Whatever... Good for her... Some schmo's gotta fork it over, right...? And as for the cake...? I gotta pay my bills, you know...? Devil's Food with two little plastic freaks on top... Baby bump on the slu... On her... It don't bother me so long as they pay cash...

Anyhow, it's about this time that Mr. CS Maker mentions that his ex-wife was coming out from San Francisco with her "partner" to attend, and how it was gonna be really weird that he and his "roommate" Richard were gonna have to let 'em stay on the pull out... Richard... Wow... Don't wanna be pals with THAT guy... I mean, my name's Jonathan and people call me Johnny but... You know what I'm sayin'... You gotta be a real man to pull that off... Like the Veep... No THERE'S a Richard to respect...

Anyhow, sorry to digress... Back to the tub... Let's just say I was starting to get a little uncomfortable with all the freakishness and really casual attitudes, but the Butch and I just traded a glance when he got back from the grill with the kielbasa and got the conversation back where it should've been: on the Jets and their chances in the post season...

THAT'S when something touched my manhood... Could've been a hotdog, sure, but it felt like a CANDLE...! When it did, I suddenly remembered the OBAMA / BIDEN '08 sign in the puke's yard and how that freak had been the Father Anusencion's favorite altar boy until he was maybe, I don't know... 23 or something...? Ok, 19... Still... LOT'S of confession, let me tell you... He was another one that didn't seem destined for actual marriage, know what I mean...? Whatever... I try to live and let live until someone gets me riled up enough to load my glock...

But DEVIL'S FOOD...? And that freakin' sign...? I got out and toweled off and told him to get his freakin' cake from COSCO or somewhere... Butch and I took our sausages elsewhere...

So I'm with you, pal... Demonic marriage is a FACT, and this ain't no fairy tale...!

Give me a break! Moral compass? The Church gives all these celebrities and Politicians "Specials of the Week". How many divorces and re-marriages are permitted with Movie Stars? Guliani gets to receive Communion and spew trash and lies about Obama, Hilary and the Democrats. Hey there are good Catholics and there are bad Catholics. There are also good and bad Jews, Moslems, Hindus and Budhists. That Christian, George Bush spoke to God and said God told him to invade Iraq. The Pope told Crusaders to kill the Moslems. The Inquisition? Columbus discovering America? The Portuguese in the Philpines? All for the greater honor and glory of God. Pillage and rape. All in the name of God. Moral compass, my arse! Christ is the Good Shepard, but sometimes we have to stop acting like sheep.

Please let me know if this is correct. A vote for Obama who is pro-choice is a sin. But a vote for a pro-war, pro-death penalty, pro-guns, pro-corporation, pro-wealthy, anti-regulation,but not the common man candidate is not a sin. No man is perfect.

Hmmm, something doesn't seem right here. And who are we to judge....only God will judge in the end not the common man (or righteous priest).

"Reading some of these posts only confirms that the devil realy is living among us!"

You're right. The devil is living among us and especially in churches with all the greed, lust, fear-mongering, lies and corruption. How many pedophiles are "still" Catholic Priests? It's easy to turn a blind eye to your own people, right? Organized Religion is nothing more than cults trying to control the faithful. End. Of. Story.

Jesus came with a message for the those who would listen. The message has not changed and unfortunately the attitude and position of religious leaders has not changed either. If the church or its leadership thinks it has any power over God's will, then it hasn't learned anything since Jesus tried to set things right the last time.

It is interesting that the Catholic priest Jay Scott Newman took that position. Did he think that his fellow priests who molested kids, and his Church that helped covered up, blinked an eye, at those priests, and then fought the victims in order to avoid or to reduce compensations to the victims commit a mortal sin too? If so, did he speak up and does that mean those churches should not even be allowed to offer communion?

I am applaud that in this day and age, we find such ridiculous positions among the clergy.

iiell...
Pedophiles,pedophiles,pedophiles,pedophiles. How many times should we say the word? How many times will we condem the whole Catholic Church and all of it'e faithful followers for the SINS of evil men and those that turned a blind eye toward them.
"greed, lust, fear-mongering, lies and corruption"
Where you see greed, I see Generosity. Where you see fear mongering, I see Hope. Where you see lies, I see TRUTH. Where you see corruption, I see Purity. What Church do you belong to?

If you are so sincere, why not do something that makes a real difference? Try education and birth control! Surely the data are a bit low - only the botched abortions show up in hospitals and health services.

Lancet

ROME, Oct. 11 — A comprehensive global study of
abortion has concluded that abortion rates are
similar in countries where it is legal and those
where it is not, suggesting that outlawing
the procedure does little to deter women seeking it.

Moreover, the researchers found that abortion was safe in countries where it was legal, but dangerous in countries where it was outlawed and performed clandestinely. Globally, abortion accounts for 13 percentof women’s deaths during pregnancy and childbirth, and there are 31 abortions for every 100 live births, the study said.

The results of the study, a collaboration between scientists from the World Health Organization in Geneva and the Guttmacher Institute in New York, a reproductive rights group, are being published Friday in the journal Lancet.“We now have a global picture of induced abortion in the world, covering both countries where it is legal and countries where laws are very restrictive,” Dr. Paul Van Look, director of the W.H.O. Department of ReproductiveHealth and Research, said in a telephone interview. “What we see is that the law does not influence a woman’s decision to have an abortion. If there’s an unplanned pregnancy, it does not matter if the law is restrictive or liberal.”

But the legal status of abortion did greatly affect the dangers involved, the researchers said. “Generally, where abortion is legal it will be provided in a safe manner,” Dr. Van Look said. “And the opposite is also true: where it is illegal, it is likely to be unsafe, performed under unsafe conditions by poorly trained providers.”

The data also suggested that the best way to reduce abortion rates was not to make abortion illegal but to make contraception more widely available, said Sharon Camp, chief executive of the Guttmacher Institute.

In Eastern Europe, where contraceptive choices have broadened since the fall of Communism,the study found that abortion rates have decreased by 50 percent, although they are still relatively high compared with those in Western
Europe. “In the past we didn’t have this kind of data to draw on,” Ms. Camp said. “Contraception is often the missing element” where abortion rates are high, she said.

Anti-abortion groups criticized the research, saying that the scientists had jumped to conclusions from imperfect tallies, often estimates of abortion rates in countries where the procedure was illegal. “These numbers are not definitive and very susceptible to interpretation according to the agenda of the people who are organizing the data,” said Randall K. O’Bannon, director of educationand research at the National Right to Life Educational Trust Fund in Washington.He said
that the major reason women die in the developing world is that hospitals and health systems lack good doctors and medicines. “They have equated the word ‘safe’ with ‘legal’ and ‘unsafe’ with ‘illegal,’ which gives you the
illusion that to deal with serious medical system problems you just make abortion legal,” he said.

The study indicated that about 20 million abortions that would be considered unsafe are performed each year and that 67,000 women die as a result of complications from those abortions, most in countries where abortion is illegal.

The researchers used national data for 2003 from countries where abortion was legal and therefore tallied. W.H.O. scientists estimated abortion rates from countries where it was outlawed, using data on hospital admissions for abortion complications, interviews with local family planning experts and surveys of women in those countries.

The wealth of information that comes out of the study provides some striking lessons, the researchers said. In Uganda, where abortion is illegal and sex education programs focus
only on abstinence, the estimated abortion rate was 54 per 1,000 women in 2003, more than twice the rate in the United States, 21 per 1,000 in that year. The lowest rate, 12 per 1,000, was in Western Europe, with legal abortion and widely available contraception.

The Bush administration’s multibillion-dollar campaign against H.I.V./AIDS in Africa has directed money to programs that promote abstinence before marriage, and to condoms only as a last resort.

It has prohibited the use of American money to
support overseas family planning groups that provide abortions or promote abortion as a method of family planning.

Worldwide, the annual number of abortions
appeared to have declined between 1995, the
last year such a broad study was conducted, and
2003, from an estimated 46 million to 42 million, the study concluded. The 1995 study, by the Guttmacher Institute, had far less data on
countries where abortion was illegal.

Some countries, like South Africa, have undergone substantial transitions in abortion laws in that time. The procedure was made legal in South Africa in 1996, leading to a 90 percent decrease in mortality among women who had abortions, some studies have found.

Abortion is illegal in most of Africa, though. It is the second-leading cause of death among women admitted to hospitals in Ethiopia, its Health Ministry has said. It is the cause of 13 percent of maternal deaths at hospitals in Nigeria, recent studies have found.

Rational1980 wrote

"It is not a political issue in this case it is a moral issue."

Actually, it is sort of both - whenever you tell people for whom to vote, you've strayed from the realm of teaching and informing the development of conscience into politics.

"The Catholic Church has been a profound force for good in this world, but liberals are so blinded by hate and their support for continuing the holocaust of the unborn that they can't see the good that the Church does."

The Church has a mixed history, but I largely agree with you about the modern church. Unfortunately, the noise raised by abortion does tend to obscure the broader picture. For example, it seems you are so blinded by your passion that you fail to see the liberals often sitting next to you in the pews. You don't even try to understand their more-than-one-dimensional position on abortion.

"Sure there have been mistakes made by members of the Church, but it doesn't mean that it's teachings are wrong. The Church provides a moral compass in a world that has willingly abandoned morality."

So how are we to distinguish between teachings that are in error than those that are valid? The Church as a whole has gone off-track in the past - group-think has led many an organization astray. The moral compass of the church was damaged in the sex scandals; the church is trying to heal itself, but rehabilitation is going to take more than a few years. If nothing else, it ought to provoke more humility among the bishops and priests who participated or looked the other way.

"It has become politically fashionable to bash the "Christian Right" for being intollerant, but it is the left in this country that is far more guilty of intollerance. Just read the other responses in this thread and you'll see what I'm talking about."

Oh for pity's sake. The Right bashes the Left, the Left bashes the Right, and you can't take the hyperventilation here as representative of Left. The beam in your own eye before the splinter in your neighbor's, etc. We could all use more charity.

bmovie has proven my point. This is not about the Spanish Inquisition, this is about a moral teaching. Ending a human life is immoral, supporting the ending of a human life is immoral. Why can't people stop talking about what some Catholics did 500 years ago when discussing what one Catholic Priest said this week? The Catholic Church is not the individuals in the hierarchy, it is the people in it's congregation and it's teachings. There is such a thing as right and wrong in this world. Many Catholics have done bad things in the past, but how does that have anything to do with the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Here is an email that I sent this guy--you can send your own to jayscottnewman@mac.com

"As a Roman Catholic I find myself sickened to my heart by the divisive letter that you wrote to your parishioners about Mr. Obama. The slickness of how you put in the middle name "Hussein" as a way of demeaning him and Muslims is beyond belief. I have never professed to know the mind of Jesus Christ, let alone to have the effrontery to speak for Him as you have in your letter, but I know from the writings of his disciples that He was a tolerant man. In my opinion your entire letter is an example of the sin of intolerance and bearing false witness against another human being. I will save your letter as an example to my children to think for themselves, in a logical manner and don't follow anyone blindly, no matter the symbolic position they occupy. Too many young children were duped by the collar over the years into believing that sexual relations with priests were somehow alright and did not find out until years later that the guilt they felt was the result of being duped by monsters, not saints. What you are doing with your letter, condemning parishioners for voting for who they think can lead this country out of 2 wars and a broken economy that are causing millions to suffer, is almost as bad as duping small children.
It is extremely hypocritical to fight for life in the womb and yet do nothing to prevent the deaths of thousands in Iraq where the Roman Catholic Church did nothing to stop the war. George Bush was anti-abortion, but pro-war and that somehow makes him a righteous man in your eyes. I know of no one who is pro-abortion, not even Mr. Obama. You should write another letter and apologize to your parishioners and Mr. Obama. And then you should step down."

As I understand it Obama had the stated goal of reducing abortions while not interfering with the rights granted by the court. i.e. not attempting to legislate behavior but to educate and lead by moral authority and example. Am I to believe that every candidate running for political office who does not run on an anti-gluttony platform, or perhaps who does not promise to prosecute those who create a graven image, falls into the same category? Also - as football season is at its halfway point, can I receive still communion if I root for a pro-choice quarterback in the Superbowl?

This is unbelievable! If the RCC doesn't lose it tax exempt status over this it never will.

Who is this guy's bishop? Can't he put a muzzle on Newman?

At least the bishops of Washington, D.C. and Wilmington, Delaware are refusing to go along with the ultra conservative, fundamentalist leaning, single issue bishops who are participating in the so called "Communion Wars."

"Jesus came with a message for the those who would listen. The message has not changed and unfortunately the attitude and position of religious leaders has not changed either. If the church or its leadership thinks it has any power over God's will, then it hasn't learned anything since Jesus tried to set things right the last time.'

Which message was that?

"Love your neighbor as yourself"?--- would be to also let me receive Communion if I did not agree with you politically or if I believe that Abortion is a personal decision of which I alone will bear the responsibilities of my decision"?

Unfortunately, we end up at this point because some people take the message of "Go forth and multiply" as a guy's right to make babies without the responsibilities of being a father. Or worse yet, if I can't multiply, let me grab the next Altar boy.

Then anyone who voted for a pro death penalty politician........

Hey, doesn't a fetus also have its own life? Protecting human life shouldn't be just a Christian moral. It should be the first step in basic human moral.

Anyone of us could have been one destroyed in millions of horrific abortions. Yes, you!

According to the election results, more Catholics voted for Obama than McCain -- sounds like there will be lots Hail Mary's to go around.

"The Catholic Church is not the individuals in the hierarchy, it is the people in it's congregation and it's teachings"

Then why does this individual "high priest" speaking for me? Forgive me, but "Who died and made him the Pope?"

But of course if the Pope was to say the same thing then Catholics will have a fate like the Druids.

This is exactly why, over the years, I CHOSE to leave the IGNORANCE of religion behind. This idiot is clearly overstepping his authority in making such an ignorant pronouncement.

What I love about such displays of ignorance is that they show how little these poor misguided zealots know about their own faith! Whatever faith they are practicing today is most certainly NOT in keeping with the philosophy of Jesus Christ.

Whatever happened to the admonition, "Render unto Caeser that which is Caeser's, and render unto god that which is god's."

This action by the most ignorant Mr. Jay Scott Newman should, at the very least, be looked into, by the IRS, as a violation of the prohibition on tax-exempt organizations engaging in political activity, with an eye towards revoking this church's tax-exempt status.

patfan, I do not belong to any church. I belong to God. I have seen too many "religions" and churches abuse and use those who are faithful. I am sick and tired of religion, war, greed, corruption and lies that come from these "Religious Figures" and their Churches.

JudgeRoyBean :
"He was a tolerant man"?
You call yourself a Catholic and the best you can describe your Lord and Saviour is "He was a tolerant man"?
"do nothing to prevent the deaths of thousands in Iraq"
How about the lives that were saved by removing a Murdering Dictator? Please don't call yourself a Catholic! If this is what you teach your children they'll believe that they are Catholics too. Your views and calling yourself a Catholic are the real problem with the Catholic Church today.

"Here is an email that I sent this guy--you can send your own to jayscottnewman@mac.com"

Damn, the priest jayscottnewman@mac.com is a Mac user! PC not good enough for jayscottnewman@mac.com? Where'd jayscottnewman@mac.com get the extra money from? I guess we Mac users have to put up with an occasion malware jayscottnewman@mac.com.

But seriously, I applaud the email you sent jayscottnewman@mac.com.

". . . George Bush was anti-abortion, but pro-war and that somehow makes him a righteous man in your eyes. I know of no one who is pro-abortion, not even Mr. Obama. You should write another letter and apologize to your parishioners and Mr. Obama. And then you should step down."

The saddest thing about George Bush is that with over thousands of people dead from Iraq, Katrina and 9/11, the man sleeps fine at night --- as does jayscottnewman@mac.com

Well said ToeKneeF.

I guess this man can't resist driving his own members away from the church. That is what he is doing - wait, maybe the real people have already left. Just the idiots and control freaks with an inferiority complex left....

God works in mysterious ways. So does the church, and I think we can trust more in God to get it right than the church. The latter, after all is only human.....

Wow. I left the Church shortly after the 9/11 attacks, when I realized that all religion, not just Christianity, was a hinderance to the progress of civilization. After reading about this moron, I'm REALLY glad I'm no longer a Catholic, let alone a believer in any religion.

BJD4:

No one would 'want' abortion. I learned this when I found out at the age of 35 that I was carrying a child who would be born with Down syndrome. Even as a born again Christian, I can honestly say that it challenged my own faith. However, what came out of it is that I realized that only I can make that decision for myself; I cannot make it for others.
****

Bravo - a true follower of Christ.,

Jesus himself agonized in the Garden over whether he could bear his cross. What did he ask of his disciples, the future priests and bishops? "Tell me what to do?"

No, Jesus asked them to "watch with me."

May some day the bishops drop their feckless quest to end abortion by defeating politicians and passing laws (doesn't that sound pretty much like any secular interest group?) and turn to teaching, watching with, and healing.

On the issue of sin, the Magisterium surely maintains the authority to determine what constitutes mortal sin. However, in keeping with the main thesis of Ioannes Paulus II's Encyclical "Veritatis Splendor" which was communicated to the faithful in 1993, let me assure all the illiterates out there that our Loving Father taught we were ALL capable of making personal moral decisions that might conflict with our Church's teachings if our decision was made in good conscience.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_06081993_veritatis-splendor_en.html

(please pay attention to paragraphs 4,5 etc), its very clear here.

Any Priest or Bishop that denies a Catholic Eucharist for making a difficult moral decision in good conscience is in defiance of his Holiness's Word and should be made to answer to God and the Church for his Sins.

iiell...
please tell me about this God you belong to. And where do you get your beliefs in this God from?

To bmovie; I agree with you on your last posting. I would add that the numbers of dead from Iraq war is not thousands. It is tens of thousands. The Iraqi lives count in God's book too. The count was well over 60,000 years ago. It has to be over 100,000. Now then, there is the matter of the maimed and the mentally ill (or both) in America and in Iraq. That has to be more hundreds of thousands. Somehow, if Bush is sleeping like a baby, as he says, feeling he got this all right, it makes me wonder who he is really talking to about all this. Maybe he has a line of communication that runs the wrong way, but he does not know it.....

Let's see ...

Abuse an Altar Boy - 3 Hail Marys and 10 Our Fathers
Abuse an Altar Boy and mess up his life - 6 Hail Marys and 20 Our Fathers
Condemn and prevent Catholics who vote for Obama because he wants Abortion for women who want or might want one - Priceless.

Patfan
There you go justifying taking a life when you just stated in a previous post that there is NO justification for taking life... Slow down and gather your thoughts...You're obviously a bit confused.

why do these crackpots get so much news coverage.
does this right wing half wit stand with an altar boy reading a voting list with the secret ballots before conferring the wonderful rite of eating a wafer? Catholics must at heart hate democracy and long for the days of yore when the church controlled the government in a theocracy. This is one nutball priest trying to divert attention from a bankrupt church, stilling paying for the tidal wave of pedophilia that it was formerly so enveloped in.

Statement from Msgr Martin T. Laughlin
Administrator of the Diocese of Charleston, SC
on Voting and Holy Communion

T H E D I O C E S E O F C H A R L E S T O N

Statement of Monsignor Martin T. Laughlin
Administrator of the Diocese of Charleston
CHARLESTON, S.C. (November 14, 2008) - This past week, the Catholic Church’s clear, moral teaching on the evil of abortion has been pulled into the partisan political arena. The recent comments of Father Jay Scott Newman, pastor of St. Mary’s Catholic Church in Greenville, S.C., have diverted the focus from the Church’s clear position against abortion. As Administrator of the Diocese of Charleston, let me state with clarity that Father Newman’s statements do not adequately reflect the Catholic Church’s teachings. Any comments or statements to the contrary are repudiated.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, “Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions.” The Catechism goes on to state: “In the formation of conscience the Word of God is the light for our path; we must assimilate it in faith and prayer and put it into practice. We must also examine our conscience before the Lord’s Cross. We are assisted by the gifts of the Holy Spirit, aided by the witness or advice of others and guided by the authoritative teaching of the Church.”
Christ gives us freedom to explore our own conscience and to make our own decisions while adhering to the law of God and the teachings of the faith. Therefore, if a person has formed his
Office of the Administrator
119 Broad Street · Charleston, South Carolina 29401
Post Office Box 818 · Charleston, South Carolina 29402 · Phone (843) 958-2150 · Fax (843) 958-2152
Office of the Administrator
119 Broad Street · Charleston, South Carolina 29401
Post Office Box 818 · Charleston, South Carolina 29402 · Phone (843) 958-2150 · Fax (843) 958-2152
or her conscience well, he or she should not be denied Communion, nor be told to go to confession before receiving Communion.
The pulpit is reserved for the Word of God. Sometimes God’s truth, as is the Church’s teaching on abortion, is unpopular. All Catholics must be aware of and follow the teachings of the Church.
We should all come together to support the President-elect and all elected officials with a view to influencing policy in favor of the protection of the unborn child. Let us pray for them and ask God to guide them as they take the mantle of leadership on January 20, 2009.
I ask also for your continued prayers for me and for the Diocese of Charleston.

IMHO, the church has rules for a reason, and because I do not understand fully why these rules exist, I have no place imposing my will on the Church from my position and standing. And if I break the Lord's rules, I am more than willing to do penance. I am not too proud to ask forgiveness. I am thankful that the Good Lord enables me to do penance for my sins, so I am not beyond redemption if I make a mistake, or break the rules. The confessional is a sacred place just as all the Church is sacred, after all. When followers presume to understand why the rules are in place, and to force their understanding on our leaders without the necessary knowledge with which to do so, this is when problems arise, and the benefit of being a part of the Church is diluted. I am not too proud to be a follower. I do not wish for women to be priests because then who would be the nuns? I would loathe to see men in nun's habits! IMHO, for a woman to wish to be a priest, is to deny the importance of the contributions of Catholic Sisters. :)

Anyone of us could have been one destroyed in millions of horrific abortions. Yes, you!

We all were fetuses once who couldn't speak up.

The priest is doing what he can to protest against the biggest genocide ever in history.

I am with him.

"Any Priest or Bishop that denies a Catholic Eucharist for making a difficult moral decision in good conscience is in defiance of his Holiness's Word and should be made to answer to God and the Church for his Sins."

Thank you. It is good to know that God is in the details. This is the Church and God I loved, as I stand in the back of the Church, never feeling worthy to come tod close because I have proven myself unworthy, thanking Him for all the good He has given me and my family and understanding the bad in my life. Apparently jayscottnewman@mac.com was too busy to open up his mind as well as his heart.

patfan--not that anything logical would get through to such a stalwart of the faith as you, but for my own sake I'll write the words. The only thing that we are sure of is that Jesus was a man who was tolerant and loving. The rest of the story that you are familiar with is subject to conjecture, twisted to fit the needs of those in power over the centuries. Probably the highest compliment that we can give to another person is that they are tolerant. I'm sorry that you will never hear those words spoken about you. By the way, the last time I looked around the world there are hundreds of murderous dictators still in power--what are you doing here--you should be in Darfur or Tibet or China or North Korea or Saudi Arabia or Syria or Cuba. And take Father Newman with you.

It is frankly depressing to me to see even one Catholic priest lining up with the wacko Southern Baptists here south of the Mason Dixon line. If you follow the rationale of these proponents, and make all your political decisions based on one aspect of a candidates position, then in effect you are saying that you would vote for Adolph Hitler as long as he was a rigid "Right To Life" (which is a real misnomer) proponent. As if this trumps all the other aspects of mercy. Frankly, in my opinion anyone taking this position is so dogma bound they don't deserve to have an opinion.

Here a bit of advice for the misguided Catholic priest:

1. President-Elect Obama is NOT a Catholic. For twenty years he attended a church which officially considers abortion as acceptable. P-E Obama can be blamed only for believing in the teachings of his church.

2. It is good to have a moral stand but not impose it on people of other faiths. Inform the politics and the public yes, but expect only one's own flock to follow the teachings. Give to Ceaser what belongs to Caesar, namely to govern according to the majority concept of morality. Jesus taught, to be in the world, but not of the world.

3. Roe vs Wade is not a mandate to abort. The state does not force Catholics to abort their unborn. Overturning Roe vs Wade is a laudable goal, but it must be done with public education and with legal groundwork. Catholics can choose not to abort their children even while Roe vs Wade is in place. So if Catholics voted for Obama because of social policies which benefit them directly, why is it a sin? Politicians are not expected to be saints. P-E Obama does not force any Catholic woman to opt for abortion. If that were the case, voting for him would have constituted a sin.

4. Catholics should be given the right to vote for a Caesar who best answers whatever need they have at that particular election cycle. The Catholic Church should not represent any political party or force its parishioners to vote one way or another. Form the conscience by discussing the merits of policies, all policies, but give each one the right to vote as they see fit.

I think I just got it! The wonderful Christian "Forgiveness Game"! You know, you "sin", then find "The Lord", ask for forgiveneness and you're free!

This really is a re-embracement scheme for those sacrilegious swine who voted for Obama to be taken in once again by the church. Do penance and you can receive the sacrament from this dodo. (And of course you're free to donate once again too.. we couldn't have you in a permanent state of banishment and making those donations to Planned Parenthood or something!)

Wait.. What happens to the money donated to the church from those who have sinned with their votes? Oh no.. what if they have donated and then someone actually reads the words of Jesus and learns that all those people who voted for Bush and his cronies supported murderers, idolators (after all, the worship of money isn't exactly Kosher, is it?) and have violated the principles of the Roman Catholic Church (not to mention those of God's)?

Hello? Is anybody left in there? I think we just emptied the place. Between those Obama sinners and the rest,everyone's gone!

They're flocking to the evangelicals who've taken the forgiveness game to another level. Its like the Arms Race of the soul.

For the good Father's sake, I hope there is no God, at least not a vengeful one like the one his church identifies.

This, Father, is a Democracy. I suggest you find a country that is a theocracy. You'd fit better there!

Rhys1

JudgeRoyBean :
"the last time I looked around the world there are hundreds of murderous dictators still in power"
What your implying is we should do nothing. Picking an area of the world that is the most hostile toward the United States directly is not a good place to start? Remember that we have a volunteer military. My son is a soldier. He is willing to put his life on the line for your safety and the safety of others. He believes protecting human life and freedoms is not just a choice but an obligation.

"Anyone of us could have been one destroyed in millions of horrific abortions. Yes, you!
We all were fetuses once who couldn't speak up.
The priest is doing what he can to protest against the biggest genocide ever in history.
I am with him."

The decision to abort a baby will never be easy. You will live with that decision as well as the decision to keep the baby. If it has happened in your family you know that either way, you will live with that decision the rest of your life. If we were a truly loving and Christian religion we would condemn abortions, but also plan for the support of women and their children that result from not having an abortion. Take responsibility for your dictates and help those who follow them. A life of child abuse, poverty, hate, physical or mental deformity and psychological trauma might not be a choice if some fetuses could speak. Again, when the group speaks for all the individuals, some of us have to bear heavier crosses than others.

The difference between a religion and a cult........................about a hundred years, give or take. "I like your Christ. I don't care for your Christians. They are not much like your Christ." Ghandi (close to the quote)

bmovie:

The decision to abort a baby will never be easy. You will live with that decision as well as the decision to keep the baby. If it has happened in your family you know that either way, you will live with that decision the rest of your life. If we were a truly loving and Christian religion we would condemn abortions, but also plan for the support of women and their children that result from not having an abortion. Take responsibility for your dictates and help those who follow them. A life of child abuse, poverty, hate, physical or mental deformity and psychological trauma might not be a choice if some fetuses could speak. Again, when the group speaks for all the individuals, some of us have to bear heavier crosses than others.

November 14, 2008 8:26 PM

________________________________________________

These are tired pro-abortionist arguments. Just substitute the word with "infanticide" and you get the picture.

Read a standard textbook of human embryology for a start to understand the mindset of those who are against abortions.

Understand the mindset of those who fought to end slavery. It was legal at one time you know. The majority thought it was moral. It was a constitutional right after all. There were plenty of others who thought it was immoral for them to keep slaves but it was none of their business if others did...

Texascynic....

BRAVO!!!!

Our beloved Obama wouldn't be here with us, if his mother chose to abort him, the fetus Obama.

Why won't anyone including Obama do something to stop the killings?

The priest is doing something.

"Statement from Msgr Martin T. Laughlin
Administrator of the Diocese of Charleston, SC
on Voting and Holy Communion"

So the issue is now a non-issue.

If this is a real email and statement, then I apologize for some of my postings especially if I have offended some readers. May God have mercy on all of us as we try to learn about God and our purpose in life.

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.... But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
- Steven Weinberg

Texascynic....
Ghandi, what a great man. I like and agree with his quote. I am a Christian. I strive daily to be more Christ like. I fail miserably. It's easy to understand those who look unfavorably on Christians. But that doesn't keep me from trying. I think that is all that God wants any of us to do. Keep trying!

What is the real difference between abortion and infanticide: the age of the child. A born child is even more dependent on others for its survival. In the womb it is comparatively more independent. The mother only has to eat a little extra food and bear the little discomfort as her stomach grows in size (which women who want to have the child, calls a mother's pride!). The growing child is attached to a placenta via its umbilical cord which gets from the mother the oxygen and nutrients it needs for its growth and gets rid of its waste. The baby grows cocooned in its own amniotic sac, protected by amniotic fluid. That is why a new born baby has no real attachment to its mother and responds equally well to anyone who takes care of its needs. It forms attachments only as a result of relating to others after it is born. Babies play on their own happily and become capable of playing with other children only later. Reason: In the womb it is used to being perfectly happy on its own.

I suppose the priest who calls abortion a sin but molesting kids, burning women as witches and the bevvy of horrors the catholic church has given us fine?

Look in your own backyard first buddy.

I love pro life republicans who support the war in Iraq. Pro lifers who support war, its irony at a basic level but I get a kick out of it.

Your either pro life for every one or shut up.

bmovie:

The decision to abort a baby will never be easy. You will live with that decision as well as the decision to keep the baby. If it has happened in your family you know that either way, you will live with that decision the rest of your life. If we were a truly loving and Christian religion we would condemn abortions, but also plan for the support of women and their children that result from not having an abortion. Take responsibility for your dictates and help those who follow them. A life of child abuse, poverty, hate, physical or mental deformity and psychological trauma might not be a choice if some fetuses could speak. Again, when the group speaks for all the individuals, some of us have to bear heavier crosses than others.

November 14, 2008 8:26 PM

_________________________________________________

It might shock you to know that even after 35 years of having the right to abort unwanted children, the wanted children are not getting the treatment they deserve. Violence against children, abuse, neglect, including sexual abuse is on the rise.

A mindset in which children may be killed because of their dependency is filtering through in how children are being treated after they are born.

The abortion culture is counter productive.

Sweden

Am a catholic living in Sweden and am so ashamed to be one because of this so called priest.I am a catholic and i wouldn´t listen to him, he is not God.The church has lots of money so poverty to them do not exists.No wonder my children do not want to go to church and you know what? i do not force them to be brainwashed.Fr. Newman tell President Bush how many Iraqis died for nothing, you make me sick!

Priest Calls Vote for Obama a Mortal Sin

A Catholic priest in South Carolina has decided that the democratic act of casting a vote is, in some cases, a mortal sin. Therefore, he has decided that parishioners who voted for Barack Obama are not entitled to the grace of Jesus Christ through communion until they've done penance.

"Voting for a pro-abortion politician when a plausible pro-life alternative exists constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil, and those Catholics who do so place themselves outside of the full communion of Christ's Church and under the judgment of divine law," Rev. Jay Scott Newman wrote in a letter to parishioners at St. Mary's Catholic Church in Greenville.

"Persons in this condition should not receive Holy Communion until and unless they are reconciled to God in the Sacrament of Penance, lest they eat and drink their own condemnation."

Between this blog and many others, there is a wealth of evidence demonstrating the RCC's violation of requirements for tax exempt status. I've gathered many of them together and next week will forward them to my Senators and Congressman.

I urge other democratically minded Americans to do the same.

This priest is a hypocrite. What about those Catholics that voted for President Bush in 2000 only to have him kill 4000-plus innocent civilians and military personnel in an ILLEGAL war? I don't recall any priest telling those who voted for Bush to refrain from receiving communion. Isn't killing those living a sin? Where was the outcry over the child abuse that took place over decades with no one warning Bishops or Priests that they should refrain from receiving communion? There are so many issues facing our country and to hang over people's heads the thought of a mortal sin being cast because the priest doesn't approve of someone's position is ludicrous (sp??). Enough of telling American citizens how they can or should vote; the church's tax status should be under review.

The offending priest is just one more reason to get rid of this ridiculous "On Myth" section.

patfan,

My God is the Father of Christ. Where do I get my beliefs? I get them from common sense, logic, observation, prayer, listening, seeing, believing, knowing, feeling, self decency, tolerance, dicsipline and literature.

I do not get them from a Church which wants to tell me how my personal relationship with God should be. I do not believe that abortion is right, but I also do not believe in telling others what is right and wrong. God IS the only one who can tell us that. God is the one who we all must answer to and be judged by. I am no better than any other human being out there, we are ALL sinners, we are all imperfect and when our time comes, God will be the one who decides our fates.

This is clear cut case of the absurd mix of intellectualism and superstition.

Groucho Marx’s well-known quip ought to come mind for anyone who considers the nonsense and illogic of the corrupt Catholic leasership to make sense: "I would not join any club (religion) that would have someone like me for a member."

Moral judgment is not the sole property of Christianity. On the contrary, there has probably been no other movement in recorded history that has either participated in or supported the death, enslavement, and displacement of their fellow man than Christianity. From the Inquisitions (the Pope helped), to the crusades, to the deathly colonization of the new and some of the old world, to Nazi Germany (yes, they were mostly Catholic and Protestant--the Jews got left out); Christians used their righteousness to support or lead the way to the most non-Christlike theocracies ever recorded. Just in this country, "believers" killed and isolated the Native American, enslaved the African, and again tolerated the crusades of Bush with whatever propaganda devised. Spirituality is not being blindly led into immoral actions by religious dogma, in my humble opinion. This Priest has set himself up as another false prophet motivated more out of politics than understanding. IMHO

Voting for McCain supports an illegal war and murder of men, women, children in Iraq. I'd love to hear how Rev. Newman reconciles the hypocrisy of that. There are no exceptions to the Commandment against killing. Killing is killing. Perhaps he could have offered instead to purge one pedophile priest from the Catholic Church for every vote cast for McCain.

MikeL4 wrote,
"This priest did not say any such thing about free speech. He said the truth. He said voting for politicians who support abortion, such as Obama, constitute material cooperation with evil. That is not knew nor controversial. Catholics have a moral resposibility with their votes in a democratic society to uphold Christian values.

Upholding politicians who allow policies allowing the killing of unborn children is not a Christian value. You are free to think and speak what you want in America. You are also free to damn your soul."

--

It's funny how hypocrisy works. Vote for the person whose actions will, directly and/or indirectly, kill people; not for the person whose actions will, directly and/or indirectly, kill people. Who cares about what else they support, like killing people.

Isn't it time to start thinking logical?

Is somebody changing the time stamps on this thread?

Abortion is such a sensitive topic. I am in now way "pro-choice." Abortion would never be an option for me. I rely on my morals and values to make the choice (which God allows his children to do in life). However, there are thousands in this nation the don't hold my same Christian values. What I can't do is impose my values in a secular government. The government doesn't have the right to legislate my Christian values on the entire nation. Best part of article was that pedophiles are still priests but those who think women should be ordained are excommunicated. Must we remember that Early Christians had no problems with slavery, however, slavery is the worst and darkest part of American history. A few parallels here??

It never crosses anybody's mind that there are so many pedophiles because women are running from early childcare and other critical female roles like it's the plague to be a woman. It never occurs to anybody that perhaps many of the people who are gay are not being honest about why they are gay, due to taboos that have nothing whatsoever to do with the Church. Why does nobody seem to care about all the judges and teachers and parents who are pedophiles.

"It never crosses anybody's mind that there are so many pedophiles because women are running from early childcare and other critical female roles like it's the plague to be a woman"

Are YOU NUTS? What does this statement mean???? Pedophiles actions are caused BY women????? Yep, another nutcase blaming women for anything.
Thought this blog article was about a priest with power issues.

I am a Catholic,a republican, Yes I VOTED for Barack Obama. For the last eight years, I have been praying for forgiveness because I voted for Bush. Look where our country is today, at war, thousand of faithful men and women are losing their lives. Families are losing their jobs, their homes, reduced to living in cars, and on the streets. All of this going on while the Republican corporates make millions of dollars, oh and lets not forget the fact that we are losing our retirements totaling millions of hard earned money. I am F****** MAD. The Catholic church or any other church has no right to tell me who I should vote for, never the less condemn me for the choices I am free to make. It is my right as an American to vote as I see fit. Notice the last four letters in the word American (i can)! If the church in North Carolina wants to start telling American's how to vote, they have no right to have a tax exempt status. This priest should be ex-communicated from the church the mortal sin he has committed against his parishioners. Can someone please explain to me why some churches are doing this? Have they lost their faith in our Lord and Savior in attempting to control the way we think. I think we need to leave it up to GOD, and the only way to do that is through prayer.

I am merely suggesting that women are the ones who are meant to be caring for the very young— their *own* young, and that neglect causes emotional and psychological damage, messing up people's gender instincts. We all have to take responsibility if there are negative social trends. Women *and* men.

patfan-i'll pray for your son's safety. But isn't it ironic that as a soldier he may kill one of those grown-up fetuses that you worked so hard to protect? I guess there are good grown-up fetuses and bad grown-up fetuses. I can't remember at what age Christ said it was alright to destroy a fetus. Maybe we can consult Father Newman. I'm sure he would know since Jesus and him are so close.

How remarkable that men of faith and commitment, like Father Bourgeois, appear to be a minority in the Catholic church.

I'm not a Catholic, but I call on all of you who are, to speak out with Father Bourgeois' inspired message.

Isn't penance simply a ritualized act of regret? If so, presuming anybody who has had an abortion would most likely regret it— whether or not it was condoned by other women— how would it be presumptuous of a Catholic Priest to require that we made the effort to show regret for the loss of a life? Anybody with any sense at all would prefer to *prevent* an unwanted pregnancy. And there are other ways to do this besides pills… but this is a whole separate topic. IMHO, it all boils down to what choices are available. I feel choices for those of us who value integral leadership are somewhat limited in this time. There is so much pressure to conform to lax standards and to shift responsibility onto others for our own misgivings.

If he were saying we ought to be beheaded for having an abortion, I would be the first in line with my sword and armor, but he is merely suggesting that the act is regrettable, and proposing the Catholic means to self-forgiveness. I find the act of penance to be cathartic, myself, but I was always a true Catholic at heart, whatever that means.

God has a special plan for that priest.

God is using that priest to decimate the income and membership of a most sinful institution.

As long as that evil priest is allowed to expouse his moronic and hypocritical opinions the more Ex-Catholics will there be.

I call on all Catholics that can still use the brain that God gave them to desert the Church that still lives in the Middle Ages and join a superstition-free 21st century.

How is it that murdering adults through Bush's war is ok but aborting fetuses is not?

How is it that forcing a woman to bear a child is saintly, but when that woman needs financial help to raise that baby it is ok to turn your back and let the child grow up in a living hell?

Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him."

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!"

You know, I wondered about that myself. All those women crying because their sons went and died for this war— and did not, no— *could* not stop them from volunteering. How does this come about? It's definitely not the Church's fault. I blame it on society.

We all make choices, and we all make mistakes, and regret is the consequence. Whether or not we have standards depends on how much we value life, and the quality thereof.

I wonder why clerics like Newman never wag their fingers at the five Catholic Supreme Court Justices who could, unilaterally, reverse Roe v. Wade tomorrow.

It takes time for things to evolve in a given direction, so the prospect of a shifting of standards is terrifying to some. But on the other hand, as there are so many alternative forms of prevention, perhaps the motivation is necessary to develop that level of forethought and discipline.

More information on the rhythm method, and natural means for fertility inhibitors. There are many less regrettable options which we cannot choose if we are not aware of them.

Are Roman Catholic priests in the USA required to adhere to our Constitution? If not why are the permitted to serve tax free?

Wow - I am actually really astounded at how ignorant some people are. I cannot believe that there are a number of people on here trying to claim that Christianity came before democracy. Did you not learn anything in history class? Did you never consider that BC stands for "before christ" and that ancient Athens, the "birthplace of democracy" began having direct voting by its citizens beginning in the 6th century BC?

With ignorant people scrambling up their math and dates so much, it wouldn't be surprising if some people thought that humans and dinosaurs were once living together at the same time. Oh, wait....some religious crazies already do!

This is all very hard for me as a man of deep spiritual convictions. My upbringing has embued me with a respect for all faiths. On the other hand, it is hard, as a person of color with two minister grandfathers and as a native of South Carolina who personally witnessed Klan crosses being burned in my front yard and who had to run across moonlit fields to escape KKK night riders, to not be aware of both the religiously blasphemous as well as the racially-tinged aspect of this Prelate's proclimation. So, how does this differ in the least from Taliban, Shia, Sunni, Zionist, or Waahabi (sic) extremism? b

LOL! This priest is killin' me... Haaaa.... Please stop... No seriously... LOL... stop.... My stomach hurts... OHoooo Haaaaaaa

Mr. Waters, Rev. Newman's position is even more insidious than your article implies. President-Elect Obama does not support abortion rights per se. His support for abortion rights rests on the fact that they are are constitutionally protected rights like freedom of speech and religion.

Rev. Newman is in effect telling his parishioners that the U.S. Constitution is intrinsically evil. That is quite a claim.

Wait a minute, didn't we see pretty much the same claim on a different issue in South Carolina almost 150 years ago?

our religion is suppose to converge with our daily life. T0 be otherwise is to be less of who we are. Yet we as a society find it convenient to separate church and state. I do find wisdom in that as we are only human. The Church, in as much as it is instituted by Christ, is also a human institution. Why? Because we are part of it. For my priest to express his political preference as to who to vote for, it is his right as a citizen. I will not take that away from him. But, he must realize also the significance of his position in society, and not use the pulpit for that purpose. It is not my Church alone that is guilty of that but of many other religions. Washington Post take note.
Likewise, please get politicians off religions' back and find another word for gay union. It is not marriage. Call it civil union, endow it with secular protection, but do not go around calling it a marriage. God does not bless it with natural gifts of procreation nor other sacramental blessings. If a religious institution has a tradition of having only men in its robe, it is not for outsiders to tell it what to do. That tradition is there for a reason. Politician and atheists please stay out of religion.
As for the abortion issue, it is easy for pro-lifers to say stop it. And, for pro-choice to say its a woman's right? What about our responsibilities to work to end the conditions that led to this tragedy? Nobody wants to kill a child. Lets stop sexualizing our society, take care of our women and maybe in a generation or so we would stop debating about abortion altogether. Let us teach our kids that their sex and color is not all they are to be. Which goes back to my first point, my religion and my citizenship is suppose to make me a whole person.

This priest has decided that people who can't think for themselves can no longer participate in a ritual more appropriate to zombies than to living human beings - the consuming of the flesh and blood of another human as a "holy" act.

"Eat his body, drink his blood, then we'll sing a song of love, la de da, la de da..." This is an actual catholic communion song. Does anyone see just how sick this really is?

A friend figured out this cannibalistic connection when he was being "prepared" for his first communion in the late 1940s. When he refused, the nun beat him severely, and even he could see at his young age that the nun got off on beating him. He never made his first communion, and he's all the better for it.

Catholics should be grateful that this priest is banning more than half of them from being flesh-eating and blood-drinking zombie sheep. Anyone with a brain doesn't need to do such things to be able to interact with the Divine, nor do they need priests or churches. This clown did a whole bunch of catholics a huge favor - and their children will be all the safer for it.

This priest has decided that people who can think for themselves can no longer participate in a ritual more appropriate to zombies than to living human beings - the consuming of the flesh and blood of another human as a "holy" act.

"Eat his body, drink his blood, then we'll sing a song of love, la de da, la de da..." This is an actual catholic communion song. Does anyone see just how sick this really is?

A friend figured out this cannibalistic connection when he was being "prepared" for his first communion in the late 1940s. When he refused, the nun beat him severely, and even he could see at his young age that the nun got off on beating him. He never made his first communion, and he's all the better for it.

Catholics should be grateful that this priest is banning more than half of them from being flesh-eating and blood-drinking zombie sheep. Anyone with a brain doesn't need to do such things to be able to interact with the Divine, nor do they need priests or churches. This clown did a whole bunch of catholics a huge favor - and their children will be all the safer for it.

Oh, but looking the other way at capital punishment, torture, pre-emptive war and hiding pedophile priests are conveniently OK.

Christ's Church indeed. If I were Jesus, I would change my last name.

Well this article has finally confirmed what I have thought all along---religion is irrelevant!

The socalled priest in question does not reflect Catholic moral theology concerning the use of prudential judgement (read "living in the real world") when it comes to making the best choices in imperfect circumstances. Nor does he follow the teaching of the current pope on making electoral choices in an imperfect world. He is speaking for himself and reveals himself to be a self-righteous, miserable excuse for a pastor. The fact that his bishop has not issued a corrective is another example of the lousy leadership the Cathholic Church in the US experiences today.

Rev. Jay Scott Newman should just plain shut up. It's none of his business how people vote. He is a narrow-minded, pompous little prick (sorry, I don't usually call people that, but sometimes it's difficult not to).

This is what happens when you place popes, cardinals, bishops and priests between yourself and your God. They are human beings, which means they can be dumb, stupid, hypocritical, sexist, racist and many other things - including rapists, as we now know - so why do you let them decide over you? They should have no power - period.

It sounds to me like there are a lot of hateful, uneducated people posting on this thread who would gladly do without any religion whatsoever, yet pretend to be "Christians". They would make threats and such rather than substantiate their assertions with logic or facts.

If some of them are priests, they should be ejected from the Church— it's clear that they became priests for political reasons if they do not wish to adhere to any rules, but simply make the rules us as they go along, and all about their carnal whims, destroying the Church in the process.

I wish they would stay out of the discussion, or else understand that the religious among us will have no choice but to attack them with as much fervor in order to secure our interests in the preservation of Religion.

What is religion, anyhow? It is a group of people who agree. Show me your families, and your innermost thoughts, and show me the fruits of your labor so that I might see how your choices have manifested around you, before you presume to tell me how to conduct my religion. Do not attack in this manner, or you forfeit all reason and merit. You will be ejected from the Church if all you understand is destruction.

Yonkers, New York
15 November 2008

Jesus Christ himself took Magdalene as his wife and bore children by her.

It is certain that Jesus Christ loved Magdalene and, by extension, loved all women.

Much of the Christian bible is the handiwork of the 400 or so Catholic bishops, all men, who were called by the emperor Constantine to the Council of Niceae in 1415 to "clean up" the Bible.

Those bishops chose to discriminate cruelly against women, and inserted in Scriptures those provisions which are susceptible to be construed as effectively denying women the same rights as men.

All of them obviously forgot that Jesus Christ, their own Savior, loved Magdalene and loved all women, but also all human beings.

Enlightened Christians these days, both Catholics and Protestants of all stripes, effectively ignore their churches' teaching not to practice birth control or abortion.

These enlightened Christians routinely refuse to allow this particular imposition of their churches to interfere with what they do sexually in the privacy of the homes and in what they consider to be important to a responsible, decent and comfortable lifestyle

These enlightened Christians do not fear one way or the other their churhces' threat of excommuniation. Nor do they feel the need to do penance for practicing birth control or abortion.

For them the threat of excommunication may have been effective in the Middle Ages, but not now in an Age of Reason and Enlightenment.

Mariano Patalinjug
MarPatalinjug@aol.com

God bless this priest for holding up the mirror of truth to his congregation. How often as Americans Catholics do we like to pretend that our votes have no moral consequence. Well they do.

Abortion kills unborn children. Any politician who supports abortion with his/her vote provides material cooperation with that evil. You join that evil when you vote for that politician.

As the Church has pointed out, Abortion is the greatest evil in our society because of the nature and enormity of this crime. The killing of innocents. There have been 40 million unborn children killed since the "right" to kill an unborn child was "found" in the US constitution. Over 1 million unborn children killed a year.

This gives the Abortion issue precedent over all other issues of moral concern for the voter.

The vote for pro-abortion politicians such as Obama, joined you to that evil.

The priest rightly pointed out to his congregation that God gave them free choice.

Many of them, as he is pointing out, are rejecting God and choosing eternal death.

"putting their souls at risk if they took [oath to G-d] without first doing penance"

that whole statement sounds like a perversion of human dignity.

Shame on all who would use Christ's teachings as your moral barometer in one breath, and crucify him in the next for setting a good example that, for whatever reason, some of us are unable to emulate. If we cannot come to terms with the shame of our sins, then we are nothing but boors and thieves.

These people who call themselves "Christians" and yet, show no humility, and no appreciation for the fragility of life; these people can call themselves whatever they please. I can call myself a tree and this does not mean I will grow roots from my feet.

Go and make yourselves another religion and leave Christ the HELL out of it.

Rev. Roy Bourgeois represents the progressive wave of the future for the Catholic Church, if it plans to survive into the next century. Popes like Benedict (Ratzinger) et al, are consigning the Church to the dustheap of the past - marginalized by outworn, medievalist thinking and attendant policies.

The Church has maintained it's primitive authoritarian stance for the last 1500 years, with a brief modern hiatus under the inspiration of John XXIII. The exclusively male-dominated hierarchy of the Church suffers from the problems that all theistic religions suffer from - a complete lack of symmetry. God and His prophets are inevitably male!

The components parts of the Trinity, to wit - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost ... who should by all rights be seen as female e.g. Sophia/wisdom of early Gnosticism. The Paraclete is instead depicted as a vague transpersonal form of the Godhead - a development from the 5th century C.E.

There is no Yin Yang of Taoism or Yab Yum of Tantrism - a tacit recognition of truth in the absolute parity & equality between the male and female principles, from a deeply spiritual point of view.

Without the property of symmetry infused in it's clerical structure & hierarchy, the Abrahamic faiths will simply remain out of balance, and out of touch - in this regard, Judaism is by far the most progressive of these three traditions; and whose example should be followed by Christianity and Islam.

Frater Bourgeois is simply recognizing a universal truth whose time has come.....

Has Rev. Newman forgotten that THOUSANDS of innocent civilians have been slaughtered in the war in Iraq, which John McCain supports? How come he's not asking McCain supporters to "repent" too? What a crock. I was raised Catholic but left the Church FOREVER because of nonsense like this. In essence, Rev. Newman is telling his parishioners who voted for Obama to get lost, that they're not good enough for the Catholic Church. I hope they leave in droves--enough is enough. Maybe the Catholic Chruch thinks I'm going to hell. So be it--I'm a compassionate, honest, kind person and I live every day that way. I don't need a hippocrite like Rev. Newman telling me what a bad person I am.

"Any politician who supports abortion with his/her vote provides material cooperation with that evil. You join that evil when you vote for that politician."

THE church is WRONG about separating and choosing which is the GREATEST evil in the taking of life department. To KILL no matter what is evil yet you and so many continue to spout sentences like the ones above without saying also that any politician who supports WAR and the continuing of the taking of ANY life provides material cooperations with THAT evil. You join THAT evil when you vote for THAT politician. You can't be suggesting that to kill an unborn fetus is unacceptable but to kill MANY human beings IS acceptable. ARE YOU REALLY?? How very Christian of you. Many of the people killed in this supposedly ACCEPTED war for Christians were innocent victims. Where is the Christianity in that? To vote for McCain and the lovely ms. Palin is to support war which involves, oh, you know, guns, ammo, for KILLING. Inevitable. To vote in Obama OR McCain is a vote to kill. But did YOU VOTE??? If you did, and most likely McCain was your choice, I imagine YOUR salvation will be greatly hindered with such an act. Stop throwing the stones that many will throw back at you.

People— read the article before commenting, please. Obama and McCain were NOT the only options!!!!!

It's pointless arguing with idiots, and if they make their place throughout our religious institutions, then it is only natural that we have problems with immorality coming from the Church because they are the majority and the majority is the most powerful when it comes to pressuring others to compliance.

GO MAKE YOUR OWN GAY CHURCH WITH YOUR OWN GAY GOD, AND LEAVE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, AND JESUS ***OUT*** OF IT!!!!! JUST *PLEASE* SPARE US THE STUPIDITY!!!

The Vatican newspaper, L'Osservatore Romano, was published Nov. 5 with an opinion piece headlined "A choice that unites."

"In the end, change occurred. The slogan that accompanied Barack Obama's whole electoral campaign found its expression" in the results of the Nov. 4 election, said the article by Giuseppe Fiorentino.

"As the president-elect underlined in his victory speech in Chicago, America really is the country where anything can happen," a country "able to overcome fractures and divisions that not long ago seemed impossible to heal," it said.

Now comes a priest who tries to undermine the Vactican's message of reconciliation by painting those who voted for as Obama being in the state of mortal sin. This isn't isn't a message of unity for catholics in America. It's divisive and contradicts the message of the Holy See. I think both this priest and his Bishop need to be recalled to Rome to explain why they are intent in dividing American Catholics against each other.

Yes, and my left leg has gangrene, so I am calling a meeting with the right leg and the cerebellum and taking it to task for asking me to amputate.

Here we have a new list for the reformers to cherry-pick. I am curious to see the results:

Pride is excessive belief in one's own abilities, that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity.

Envy is the desire for others' traits, status, abilities, or situation.

Gluttony is an inordinate desire to consume more than that which one requires.

Lust is an inordinate craving for the pleasures of the body.

Anger is manifested in the individual who spurns love and opts instead for fury. It is also known as Wrath.

Greed is the desire for material wealth or gain, ignoring the realm of the spiritual. It is also called Avarice or Covetousness.

Sloth is the avoidance of physical or spiritual work.

Here we have a new list for these "reformers" to cherry-pick. I am curious to see the results:

Pride is excessive belief in one's own abilities, that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity.

Envy is the desire for others' traits, status, abilities, or situation.

Gluttony is an inordinate desire to consume more than that which one requires.

Lust is an inordinate craving for the pleasures of the body.

Anger is manifested in the individual who spurns love and opts instead for fury. It is also known as Wrath.

Greed is the desire for material wealth or gain, ignoring the realm of the spiritual. It is also called Avarice or Covetousness.

Sloth is the avoidance of physical or spiritual work.

http://joemygod.blogspot.com/2008/10/worshipping-golden-calf.html

Maybe the Gay community can start a church where the entire congregation gets up on the pulpit and lectures the priest, who sits alone in the pews? ROTFLMAO!!!! What a bunch of silly, deluded masterdebaters.

They can hold a gun to their "gay priest's" head, and force him to write the sermon, and then sit him down and let him have it!!! LOL!

If a gay person were the only person who could save your life in ANY circumstance, you who condemn gay people (as if they are animals) are NOT allowed to call upon that person to save you and you need to perish. Of course, how many of you gay bashers would ever be in that situation? So you never have to put that to the test. So you keep on with your hatred. Keep it going. It's so Christian and loving. Blehh. Gag.

No— this is not "gay bashing". It's the defending of people who do not think homosexuality is natural, and the defending of small boys who are handed over to their fathers/uncles/classmates, younameit, while a heap of NEGLIGENT muff-diving WITCHES turn a blind eye so they can have their DIAMONDS.

MOST OF MY READERSHIP ARE GAY MEN.

And you know what, CindyMarie, While I might beat you senseless for letting innocent children play sex-toys for you while you run around spending your husband's money— I would save your life in a millisecond, and without hesitation, if you were dying in front of me and you were a total stranger. I would not ask you for your sexual orientation, or economic status, or your racial background while you lay there bleeding. I would not steal your wallet, or your leather gloves, either.

Only GREEDY, SELFISH WITCHES behave thus, and this is why they ought to be EXCOMMUNICATED.

And you did not stop there, did you. It was not enough that your boys were doing your wifely duties while your husbands grew obese and bald and depressed from neglect.

You funded scientists who enables you to compete with your own daughters, and in doing so, you gave sickness and death and misery to the younger generations of females.

How much more apparent can it be that certain women ***need*** to be treated as dominant forces, and thus moderated by society, rather than viciously pitted one against the other in this excess and insanity?!

TO HELL WITH YOUR KIND, WHO PRESUME TO BE SUPERIOR TO GOD'S PLAN FOR GENDER BALANCE AND EQUALITY. YOUR MEN ARE MISERABLE, YOUR CHILDREN LOST AND MALNOURISHED.

MAY GOD FORGIVE YOU.

Ok, C Halasc, your comments are very strange and offensive. You will gather no one to your side with such statements. And now you have attacked me personally without knowing anything about me.
You say: "While I might beat you senseless for letting innocent children play sex-toys for you while you run around spending your husband's money"....wow. You say I take my husband's money. I make more money than my husband...busted on that one. You accuse me of letting innocent children play with sex toys for ME? Weird to suggest that to a total stranger who would do no such thing. Wow.
"They can hold a gun to their "gay priest's" head, and force him to write the sermon, and then sit him down and let him have it!!! LOL!"
Very strange statement.
Yet you say that many of your readers are gay. Hmmm. What exactly do you write that isn't offensive?
And you imply that females who do NOT condemn gay people the right to live are, as you say, "a heap of NEGLIGENT muff-diving WITCHES (who) turn a blind eye so they can have their DIAMONDS".
Very strange. What diamonds are women after? And they are all witches?
You are saying that little boys are automatically given to the gay community. Very strange. I know gay men and Pedophilia is just as despicable to them. There are sick individuals who permeate the world regardless of sexual preference, and they are people you think are normal because they aren't gay. Pedophilia is disturbed individuals who desire children, not adults who desire the same sex.
I am not a lesbian as I see is the label given....lumping in anyone who supports gays as also gay. Very intelligent. I am a human being who does not perceive gay people as less than myself.
I consider myself much more a believer, a practicing follower in the goodness that G*d gave us all the choice to follow than the person who is making all these anti-gay statements and attack statements when they don't even know the person they are.
I give you no more of my time. You are a scary individual.

Good logic skills. And good riddance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HdGUNm6-qI

C Halasz - you're a total whack job and probably the most offensive/assaultive individual I'd had the displeasure to encounter on these boards -

Keep this up and you'll be removed as a poster. I'll file a personal complaint myself.

They've got a gofer job over at Fox News that you'd be perfect for....you've got my recommendation.

Coming from you, that's a complement.

I am "assaultive" because I would beat the living crap out of a woman who actively enforces this kind of policy:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/conditions/06/02/kids.cancer.ap/index.html

C Halsasz - I was thinking you'd work well with Michael Savage or Ann Coulter. Even those two demons from hell need coffee from time to time.

Of course I could be wrong - we hardly know each other. Is 'beating the hell' out of folks something you dwell on?

Ok then - it's Rush Limbaugh for you.......oxycontin with your morning Joe.

Beware that evil temper, sayeth the Lord. The road to hell is paved with bad intentions.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/17687.php

Research from 19 European countries in this week's issue of THE LANCET (pp 2074, 2097) documents how childhood cancer, while still rare, has been slowly increasing over the past 3 decades.

Cancer is rare before age 20 years. Eva Steliarova-Foucher (International Agency for Research on Cancer, Lyon, France) and colleagues used the large European database of childhood and adolescent cancer cases to estimate patterns and trends of incidence and survival within Europe.

The investigators obtained high-quality data from 63 European populationbased cancer registries in 19 European countries. Analysis of 113,000 cancers in children and over 18,000 cancers in adolescents during the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s showed how the incidence rates of cancer increased by around 1% for children and 1.5% for adolescents per year. The incidence rate by the 1990s was 140 per million for children and 157 per million for adolescents.

The increases were recorded for virtually all tumour types in children, while in adolescents the major changes were seen for carcinomas, lymphomas, soft tissue sarcomas, germ-cell and CNS tumours. Simultaneously, , survival of these patients increased substantially over the 3 decades studied, reaching 5-year actuarial survival of 75% for children in western Europe and 64% in eastern Europe; with similar findings for adolescents.

Dr Steliarova-Foucher comments: "Our results are clear evidence of an increase of cancer incidence in childhood and adolescence during the past decades, and of an acceleration of this trend. Geographical and temporal patterns suggest areas for further study into causes of these cancers, as well as provide an indicator of progress of public-health policy in Europe."

In an accompanying commentary (p 2074), Catherine Cole (Princess Margaret Hospital for Children, Perth, Australia) states: "Worldwide, most children with cancer live in developing countries. Despite 80% survival rates in the west, most children with cancer in developing countries will die for lack of medical care.

Nah- it's not considered a bad temper when you're fighting for someone's life. Sorry.

http://www.chem-tox.com/cancerchildren/#NYTimes

New York Times Article
Discusses Rise in Child Cancers
SOURCE: NEW YORK TIMES, September 29, 1997

The September 29, 1997 New York Times article entitled "New Toxins Suspected as Cancer Rate Rises in Children" discussed the rises being seen in child cancers over the past 20 years. Specific quotes from the article include the following:

The rate of cancer among American children has been rising for decades. Although the reasons remain unclear, many experts suspect the increase may be partly the result of growing exposure to new chemicals in the environment.

* And today, according to experts in the field, a newborn child faces a risk of about 1 in 600 of contracting cancer by age 10.
* Depending on which types of cancer are counted, and in what age groups among the nation's youth, the rate of increase has amounted to nearly 1 percent a year, according to the National Cancer Institute. Over a few decades, that has meant striking double-digit increases.
* "I had not realized that the numbers were going up that way," said Karen Florini, a lawyer specializing in health issues at the Environmental Defense Fund. "I think it indicates a very disturbing trend that we had better get to the bottom of."
* In the United States, cancer is diagnosed each year in an estimated 8,000 children below the age of 15. Cancer, although it kills fewer children than accidents do, is the most common form of fatal childhood disease, accounting for about 10 percent of all deaths in childhood.
* Acute lymphoblastic leukemia in boys and girls increased 27 percent between 1973 and 1990; since then, the rate in boys has declined, but it is still rising in girls. Brain cancer, or glioma, increased nearly 40 percent from 1973 to 1994. These two forms of cancer account for most of the disease in children.
* Although the causes are not known and are probably many, some experts say, toxins in the air, food, dust, soil and drinking water are prime suspects.
* "I'm talking about new research on air pollutants, water pollutants and pesticides and their effects on children," said Carol Browner, the administrator of the EPA, "and new testing guidelines that routinely incorporate children's issues into EPA's risk assessments. I'm talking about moving beyond the chemical-by-chemical approaches of the past, and instead looking at a child's total cumulative risk from all exposures to toxic chemicals."
* "The increases are too rapid to reflect genetic changes, and better diagnostic detection is not a likely explanation," said Dr. Philip Landrigan, a pediatrician who directs the division of environmental medicine at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York City and who is the senior adviser to a new office of children's health at the EPA "The strong probability exists that environmental factors are playing a role."
* In a study published in The American Journal of Public Health in February 1995, researchers suggested that "use of home pesticides may be associated with some types of childhood cancer."
* Another study, published in The Archives of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology in 1993, found associations between brain cancer in Missouri children and the use of pesticides in homes and yards.

Article by John H. Cushman, Jr.
New York Times
September 29, 1997

What is violence, anyhow? Violence is all that harms others needlessly. Sometimes, violence helps people— but only in life/death situations.

It's time we called some of these murderers on their "special" brand of "gentle" violence.

Emotional abuse, psychological abuse, silently poisoning others, and themselves. All forms of highly destructive violence.

…or we could use one of ***their*** classic excuse; "It's God's will", or, "*hit happens", or " we all have to die of something".

All the while profiting from the misery of others and of their own children.

I think it's perfectly reasonable behavior.

And then they are the first to cry, "Abuser".

c_halasz :

How do your reconcile your support of Catholic homophobia with the observation that Pope Benedict is obviously gay?

Isn't there some degree of hypocrisy and denial in this whole Catholic outfit? I mean, is don't ask, don't tell make a gay man qualified to be Pope?

Isn't there alot about the Catholic that is truely twisted, contorted, and tormented? I mean, it is odd that this South Carolina Priest comes out against a black Presidential candidate? How conveeeeenient, that voting for a black man is a mortal sin.

What the priest should have said:

President-elect Obama rode to the Blood-Red House on the backs of 35+million aborted womb-babies!!!

Please keep in mind that the fastest growing USA voting bloc is The 70+ million "mothers and fathers of aborted children" whose ranks grow by two million per year.

i.e. the Immoral Majority now rules the land and will do so in the foreseeable future. How very sad and disturbing!!!

The priest then should have given his parishioners a general absolution and moved on.

C Halasz - but who are you blaming for this rise in cancer among children? That part is completely unclear - the policy you spoke of did not come through on your link.

I think you need to be very clear about the object of your wrath - and who knows? Other folks might even agree with you.

I've had plenty of personal family experience with cancer - although very fortunately, not childhood cancer. This is a general topic that I'm pretty familiar with........

I will only answer you because you have addressed me directly. I find it offensive the way you speak of our Pope. I find it offensive the way you presume racism when character is in question.

It makes you a violent person that you presume upon others this way.

Persiflage— I do not need to find a scapegoat. I am not a lawyer nor am I a politician. I am merely a mother who has found that as a direct result of making healthy, educated choices for my own children, and being forced repeatedly throughout my life to defend these choices, I have been habitually placed by other women on some death squad firing line.

I speak of cultural forces, and gender roles as they pertain to faith. I do not need to prove myself, aside from telling you that being healthy has been impossible because of the elder women in my own life who would force me to live by their standards at all costs to the well being of myself and my loved ones. And I am not alone in my experiences. Many Gen-X moms are in the same boat, and all of us are at wit's end.

Faith is our only hope, and it is the source of my strength in persisting in all the good things in my life. I despise those who would color it with their personal shame.

Is it any surprise that some priest from the Rulers Of The Dark Age would declare that anyway other than his way is the wrong way? When are these dying dinosaurs going to shut up and stay inside their walled fortresses?

So Listen Up- You had your chance to rule. You tortured in the name of your god. You burned women at the stake in the name of god. You denied the existence of the sun centered solar system up until 1991 in the name of your god. You kept your population illiterate and in fear for hundreds of years in the name of god. Your idea of justice was GUILTY until proven innocent in the name of god. You massacred millions (including children) in the name of god. I can keep going but you'll never get it.

So for those of us who aren't impressed by your pointed phallic hats- Stay out of our government. This is a democracy whether you like it or not. Here the Majority rules. Here in America, we have spoken regarding the freedom of choice. Under our rule of law, you are lucky to have the right to be as stupid as you've been without anyone telling you how to conduct yourselves during your rituals of flesh and blood amid the smoking incense and oppressive music. Thankfully, we have REASON on our side. So please, the next time you need open heart surgery, a flu shot, or even the convenience of the Dry Cleaner who presses your frilly frocks... Thank the secular world.

I find this most amusing. Pope Benedict XVI was born on 16 April 1927! Perhaps it was ***YOU*** who tormented all those innocent natives and children!!! Maybe it was your "ilk" who infiltrated the church with this dire insanity. Only people totally incapable of rational thought as to poison their ***own*** grandchildren with cumulative carcinogens would be capable of such insanity.

And do not think to align yourselves with the general populace. I have found them to be sheepish, but not reserved in their contempt for hatemongers and murderesses.

C Halasz - I appreciate your personal response, but the details of your own situation remain unclear, although you are obviously responding from deep personal feelings and experience.

I think you need to provide much more detail about your own situation and how it applies to what you've posted. What are you and other generation X moms dealing with? I don't know.

At least we're glad to know that you're not a 250 pound wrestlemania fan with a chip on your shoulder!

I do have a daughter (and breast cancer survivor) that meeets the Gen-X criteria - she is dealing with my teen-aged granddaughter, who has recently been diagnosed with bi-polar disorder. No one is a stranger to the travail that you speak of.

On the other hand, I know something about the background of the present Pope, and his personal disdain for other religions ..... the fact he is calling for reconciliation among faiths is somewhat ironic - he is no John XXIII, in other words.

The fact that he follows John Paul II probably tempers his own approach to Church matters. And let's not return to the Pope of my own youth, Pious XII.

His (passive) history with the persecution and genocide of Jews during the Shoah (Holocaust) is an eternal black mark on the Church.

The problem with faith is that the faithful are following the words, interpretations, rules, and teachings of highly imperfect people. This can't help but come through with whatever 'truth' they happen to be preaching at any given moment.

This relative state of religion during any given generation, or any moment in time, is no differnet than any other aspect of life. It either changes with the times, or it fades away as a relic of the past.

Your Church is confronting such a moment in time.

Persiflage— I [respectfully] decline your invitation to submit further details of my personal life, if only because you are clearly unable to express a respectful rapport towards those with whom you philosophically disagree, and incline to use others' personal history unfairly against them as weapons. Show me a man whose youth is free of folly and I'll show you an aborted fetus.

It suffices to say that my persecutors are all of the "Boomer" persuasion, and female, and of ***all** faiths and races. That they have pushed out the faithful of each of their respective communities to the fringe, and painted them to be "mentally ill" in some attempt to avenge injustices perpetrated largely by our ancestors, and others who would condone such insanity.

The only thing that connects these bigots is their unquestioning approach to mass-media culture, and their extreme levels of superficiality. And if they embrace cancer as an alternative to genocide and slavery, then they are no better than the people they feign to correct, and a real danger to those in their care.

I am a Protestant. However, I think that my Catholic brothers err when they make voting one's convictions a sin. There were many Christians who voted for another Christian (Obama) on election day. The good priest has already forgotten about the priest problem in the Catholic church. Pro life as some have adequately pointed out does not mean pro-abortion.

Catholics in Catholic-controlled countries have murdered Protestant missionaries and lay workers in the past without any apparent regard for pro-life issues.

The pro-life issue is much more complicated than one of a black-and-white rationale.

To deny that there are times when abortions may be appropriate is to deny a woman a safe remedy for such a time. The decision regarding abortion should always be between the woman and God. My Bible is not totally clear on the issue of abortion. It does say that there is a time to kill and a time to heal. God did cause many pregnant women to be killed.

We need to move onward in Christian love and undertstanding.

http://theologytoday.ptsem.edu/jul1981/v38-2-article4.htm

The General Allotment Act in 1887 spoke characteristically of the priority of building mission schools on Indian lands "to civilize and Christianize the Indians." By the mid-1900s, Indian beliefs and traditions were more fully appreciated. Yet the First Amendment protection of religious liberty did not often apply to citizens whose pews were rock and dirt, whose sanctuary stretched from horizon to horizon, whose sacred objects sometimes included illegal substances and feathers of endangered species, and whose spiritual havens sometimes sat on top of untapped energy resources. Compounding these difficulties have been widespread fears that many of the old ways and insights were being lost as the elders died and young people became dispirited or disinterested and drifted away.

With the new law, federal agencies are to "protect and preserve" the rights of Indians, Eskimos, Aleuts, and native Hawaiians to exercise their traditional religions. Native Americans are to be granted, among other things, access to sacred sites on federal lands, use and possession of sacred objects from nature, and other freedoms to perform ceremonial rites.

"By itself, the law (Public Law 95-341) doesn't have a lot of teeth," argued attorney Kurt V. Blue Dog, codirector of the Native American Rights Fund in Boulder, Colo. "But it sets the tone for the federal government, and that's probably the most important thing it does," the 30-year-old Sioux said.

In early 1981, a concern was whether traditional Indian burial grounds, sacred areas to Native Americans, would be exempted from the freedoms given to archeologists in the Archeological Resources Protection Act, which passed Congress in 1979. Public hearings were held in 1981 on proposed regulations for the act, now termed Public Law 96-95.

Show me how the nice little ladies in t.v. land have addressed this problem to any degree of satisfaction since they came to power. Or is it sufficient that they wear cheap dream-catcher knock-off earrings and pat themselves on the back for their love of all things "cultural".

To this day, marijuana prohibition laws are enforced because of these women who drink and take prescription pills that numb them while their husbands rape their children in the next room.

When do they return to Earth with the rest of us and do penance for their sins?

EarlC— Clearly, you misunderstand the nature of this Priest's _very valid_ conviction in this key issue. He speaks of the fallacy in religion when followers are held culpable for the mistakes of their leaders. It is a very timely and respectful point he is making and he deserves commendation for taking this risk and speaking of leadership culture rather than taking the easy way out and scapegoating the innocents who are misled by poor policy and irresponsible role models.

If B.O. errs in judgment, and this causes policy to spread which exacerbates the problems we face— not in teenage BEHAVIOR, but in FAMILY CULTURE, which is the precedent of all thought, much less action, then we must realize that he will influence policy in this same direction, and that this will impact negatively in CULTURAL issues.

This is s priest who took a risk to say something of meaning rather than pandering to those in his parish who pay their dues. It is a commendable act, and I am proud of him for doing so; for taking this risk to do what's RIGHT, rather than what is easy.

Rev. Waters:
This puts me in mind of the time during Vatican II when The Church assembled a varied and strong committee of members, both religious and lay people, to study the question of contraception and the pill.
They submitted their report and recommended that Catholics be allowed to control conception by means of the pill as a form of responsibility for their family as a whole and in responsibility for not only their children's physical birth, as well as provision for their education and development.
After the report was submitted to the Pope, Paul VI (who replaced John XXIII, when he died), a few baracled old Curia veterans told the Pope, he couldn't approve this report.
He might endanger his standing as the final authority in the Church on matters of faith and morals; he might even imperil belief in papal infallibility (horror of horrors) and diminish control of the Papacy within the Church.
So, Pope Paul VI caved in and refused to accept the study, although he had been open to it before he was confronted by the Curia conservatives.
Now, we find out that a 1976 study was done concerning the ordination of women, with the same result.
Yet the Church refuses to take pro-active measures regarding pedophilia and even provides some offenders with sanctuary, overseas, if necessary.
Now, even our political right to vote is being attacked, using the Eucharist as a club and excommunication as a threat.
But don’t anyone DARE touch their US tax-exempt status, you understand!
Tax-exemption by churches is a privilege, not a right, in this country and it is premised on the condition that the churches remain apolitical and stay out of that arena.
This situation in the Church is truly sad.
And I'm a life-long Catholic.

C Halasz - well, your anger is clear enough, but all else is hyperbole tinged with paranoia....you still haven't clearly stated why children with cancer aren't getting the best of treatment, or who the responsible parties are.

Or if you have such a personal history yourself, which would be a terrible thing, if true.

You haven't made your case - clarity is not part of your posts, so in the meantime, you seem hostile and at the same time, suffering from mysterious offenses.

Since nobody knows anybody from Adam on these threads, why all the secretiveness? What I see on these threads very often is posters holding conversations with themselves, rather than with other posters. Communication is a two-way street.

__________________

On this last post of yours, the mystery only deepens - last night on Bill Moyers we see that indian reservations are not subject to the same laws as the rest of the country - typically crimes committed on reservations are the sole domain of either the tribal council and tribal law enforcement, or the federal government - local law enforcement is moot. Serious crimes go unprosecuted because of the complexity of these laws.....and the fact that the FBI and US Attorney's Office fail to investigate and prosecute guilty parties for various reasons.

Are you advocating the legalization of marijuana? Actually, that would be pretty cool, given the other stuff that you've written......

Please understand, your posts really don't make alot of (coherent) sense, but your intelligence and thoughtfulness do show through.

PS. It is not a parish priest's role to determine the commission of sin ex parte, whether venial or mortal (and especially mortal sin).

This priest has overstepped his authority big time - and has actually brought politics into the pulpit, thereby threatening the tax exempt status of that church. He won't be beaten with a cane, but I guarantee you he will be admonished for his
rashness.

The priest is correct and he is pointing out Catholic doctrine.

To vote for someone who supports such a great evil such as Obama does, joins you to that evil. There is nothing new to this. Unfortunately, too many Catholics and others don't like being told that their votes have consequences. Boo-hoo.

'MikeL4 writes
'his priest did not say any such thing about free speech. He said the truth. He said voting for politicians who support abortion, such as Obama, constitute material cooperation with evil'

Obama's position is to reduce abortions. The 'priest' in question is rather ignorant, and probably a lying partisan hack. As for you, you've proven countless times you don't know what you're talking about.

Persiflage— Your frustration is painfully evident, as is your own anger, which appears to be unsubstantiated. I do not have cancer, nor has anybody close to me ever had cancer, because we have cultural knowledge passed down for many generations which has yet to be extinguished by this scourge of pseudo-intellectuals who argue endlessly because they are unable due to deep-seated issues to separate their emotional lives from political matters, and are always looking to win, or blame, rather than finding effective resolution because they hide from their own [pronounced] discontent and shame.

This is not to say nobody is to blame for the cancer rates, but rather, this underlines a priest's conviction to step out of an established hierarchy in order to make a statement that substantiates my position, and that of many others who are unable to do so because of constraints placed on him by laws that provide escape for abusive people by the very same means you attempt to employ in your [transparent] efforts here to lure me into a mire of "fact" finding and refutation, so you can attack the character of anyone who does not condone child abuse and the economic oppression of minorities under the guise of being "informed".

I shall continue to express myself without providing you with a tit-for-tat expose of [seemingly] refutable facts, but merely speak from my personal experience, because in the end, it's all any of us take to sleep at night. In the end, it's what defines our inner landscapes, after all the [whipped and oppressed] bureaucrats have done with their hemorrhoid-induced, suffocated reasoning and conjecture which serves only to further encroach on our collective liberties each year.

If you feel that the Church ought not pay taxes, then I assure you that the Synagogues shall not pay them either, and if this is an issue for you, then so be it. I feel your behavior is shameful.

Father Newman is wrong. In fact, all religions in the World have a wrong concept of faith. Christians in particular are in a wrong way. It is just because all of them are apostolic and not real Christian. Jesus tought us to love God, the Great Criator at first and our like ones secondly. This is a big commandment that Christian religion with no exception have no backgroud to do so. Then, they deviate or go astray from what Jesus taught and start to create rules, divisions and burdens made up of hypocrisy that conceal from us the real rule that saves. Also, the teaching of Jesus do not abide on a particular religion. Any person, anywhere, may walk on Jesus steps even not attending a church or practcing a specific religion. The teaching of Jesus sprouts from from the heart of a person and not from what someone thinks it is right or wrong and try to interfere in ones affair. Jesus called people like this of "painted sepulchers", beautiful on the outside but empty or full of bed smell in the inside. You may find these people everywhere, even in Vatican. Miguel - Campinas - Sao Paulo - Brazil - mmiguel@eiol.com.br - www.eiol.com.br

C Halasz - well, salude to one of the stranger coversations I've had recently. But here's what you seem to be saying - you don't support the pro-choice position, and you agree the Catholics that voted for Obama need to be deprived of the sacraments i.e communion - in other words, punished for departing from the official Church position on abortion - by proxy (of their voting preference).

But here's the thing - the Church is overstepping it's boundaries by trying to influence voting preferences through threats, and the American Bishops have also made their position in this matter very clear....consequently, the Church is jeopardizing it's tax exempt status by entering actively into the political arena.

So be it - I sincerely hope that creates a huge problem for the Catholic Church because they've asked for it. And I see that you agree with 'going out on a limb' for your beliefs - so let the Church pay the price and forego their tax status. I will support that legislation.

I haven't heard anything whatsoever from the Jewish community on this matter, have you? I wonder why you mention it. As for me, I'm a former Catholic....

I'm neither frustrated or angry - why in the world would I be? You're projection of your own disposition is telling, if I may say so.

And the relationship that you allude to between cancer rates and what Frater Newman has to say about communion and Obama voters completely eludes me.

Are you sure you're alright??

PS. I'm glad that neither you nor your family members have ever actually had cancer - you don't want it, believe me. It will radically change your point of view on alot of things. That I guarantee.

Persiflage— your arguments would hold a lot more water without the ever present peppering of [intensely vitriolic and unsubstantiated] personal attacks.

If the Catholic Church is also under attack, then with it goes ***all*** organized religious entities. I hope you can handle the backlash. LOL! I, for one, will relish the show.

Furthermore, I, with my lowly, disjointed thoughts and bizarre allusions that are so discredited by the fact-hounds of "higher learning", have been instrumental in the changing of legislation in the past— and rules, while essential to the proper functioning of any society, are merely functional.

If my posts make no sense to you, or are "paranoid" or "strange", then do us both a favor and go waste another person's time. O.K.? :) Thanks. It's been interesting.

C Halasz - for your review, this is what you say:

'Persiflage— Your frustration is painfully evident, as is your own anger, which appears to be unsubstantiated. I do not have cancer, nor has anybody close to me ever had cancer, because we have cultural knowledge passed down for many generations which has yet to be extinguished by this scourge of pseudo-intellectuals who argue endlessly because they are unable due to deep-seated issues to separate their emotional lives from political matters, and are always looking to win, or blame, rather than finding effective resolution because they hide from their own [pronounced] discontent and shame.

This is not to say nobody is to blame for the cancer rates, but rather, this underlines a priest's conviction to step out of an established hierarchy in order to make a statement that substantiates my position, and that of many others who are unable to do so because of constraints placed on him by laws that provide escape for abusive people by the very same means you attempt to employ in your [transparent] efforts here to lure me into a mire of "fact" finding and refutation, so you can attack the character of anyone who does not condone child abuse and the economic oppression of minorities under the guise of being "informed".

I shall continue to express myself without providing you with a tit-for-tat expose of [seemingly] refutable facts, but merely speak from my personal experience, because in the end, it's all any of us take to sleep at night. In the end, it's what defines our inner landscapes, after all the [whipped and oppressed] bureaucrats have done with their hemorrhoid-induced, suffocated reasoning and conjecture which serves only to further encroach on our collective liberties each year.

If you feel that the Church ought not pay taxes, then I assure you that the Synagogues shall not pay them either, and if this is an issue for you, then so be it. I feel your behavior is shameful.'

fini......
__________________

And I say - what?? The above is what is referred to as 'word salad'. Nothing hangs together, semantically speaking. Your word usage is novel and intriguing, however.

Ah well, maybe it's just me.

Au Revoir........

:'-)

JAYPEM:
Like you, I am also a "a pro-life Catholic on abortion, who also opposes the war in Iraq, the death penalty, and euthanasia".
We just have to face it: our Church has lost its way.
And it has lost its moral authority in the world, sad to say.
I have prayed over this decision and I am convinced that Barack Obama was sent by God to save this nation, if only we can overcome our prejudices against race and political partisanship, both of which are sins which do a lot of damage to our human community.
There are a few priests and a few bishops who are radical and they give scandal to the good name of the Church with their actions, for which I have deep regret.
But it doesn't bother me a bit.
My bishop told me to balance the damage.
How many people are damaged by abortion, versus how many people would be damaged by other actions of the government in many areas?
Lack of health insurance kills.
Lack of income to live a simple, plain but human lifestyle.
(But their advocacy of laissez-faire economics precludes them from supporting any programs which would help people.)
We are free to make the best decision for the sake of our country.

South Carolina: Priest Is Rebuked

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: November 15, 2008
A Roman Catholic priest should not have told parishioners who voted for President-elect Barack Obama to refrain from taking Holy Communion because of support of abortion, the church’s senior officer in the state said. Earlier this week, the Rev. Jay Scott Newman said in a letter to parishioners at St. Mary’s Catholic Church in Greenville that they were putting their souls at risk if they took Holy Communion without first doing penance for voting for Mr. Obama. But Msgr. Martin T. Laughlin, administrator of the Diocese of Charleston, said, “If a person has formed his or her conscience well, he or she should not be denied Communion, nor be told to go to confession before receiving Communion.”

and this rebuke may not mean anything if this president elect doesn't survive a meeting with any of the people (and their children) who already have shown their true colors of ignorance, separatism, bigotry, and racism found in this article today:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iEyLuiVkdd-f1RM5wnoR0kF4WbvgD94FNVC00

Teach....your children well...CSNY

Walking and moccasins come to mind… *rolleyes*

The lives of almost fifty million unborn have been ended by legal but immoral abortion. The Bishops asked for proportionality. What can compare in this world to the death of fifty million human beings? Judy in Texas cites the lack of insurance, jobs, etc. How does this compare with the death of fifty million. Besides, there is no guarantee that Obama's policy's will improve the economy, or give the uninsured medical insurance. However it is guaranteed that abortion kills the unborn. Even before this man is sworn in he's talking about forcing us to pay for abortions overseas. Can any Catholic explain to me what is equivalent to the lives of fifty million of the unborn?

How long will it be before we realize that Obama's fake promise to reduce abortions was a lie? He's already working to INCREASE abortions even before he's sworn in. As far as receiving communion, you have to be aware that what you're doing is a sin. The Catholics who voted for Obama are protected by their own willful ignorance. They may have another sin on their conscience and that is to neglect to develop their conscience. Also note that it is lapsed Catholics who voted for Obama. Church going Catholics did not.

Now, now there. We don't want anything to catch fire, you hear? LOL!

I mean— the imagery alone could cause nightmares in the more susceptible…

I was raised Catholic and couldn't get away from the Church fast enough when I was a young man. They've given me no reason to believe my decision was a mistake yet.
According to Rev. Jay Scott Newman's reasoning, wouldn't voting for McCain, who supported a needless war in Iraq which has killed or maimed hundreds of thousands of people also be a mortal sin?
As for women serving as priests, it's past time the Catholic Church dropped their misogyny.

Practicing Catholics are people who believed in the literal truth of Grimm's Fairy Tales as children.

It just shows that these priests are not really priest but the worst con men parading as priests. His parishnors should really question whether this man has a right to be priest or is he just being a parasite and leech on the parishnors?

Our War on Terror and Aggression:

An update (or how we are spending or how we have spent the USA taxpayers’ money to eliminate global terror and aggression)
The terror and aggression via a Partial and Recent Body Count

1) Assassination of Benazir Bhutto

2) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens, 1000’s injured

3) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, US Troops (3,388 combat 805 non-combat) and 88,851 – 96,976
Iraqi civilians killed, http://www.iraqbodycount.org/ and
http://www.defenselink.mil/news/casualty.pdf

4) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]

5) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

6) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

7) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

8) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror:

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran is being been contained. (beside containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become almost civil. Recently Libya agreed to pay $1.5 billion to the victims of their terrorist activities Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they have threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!! Or is he???

Continued if needed.

You say sexixm and racism is a sin, and that discrimination is wrong--this all in the same breath that you are critizing a man who calls supporting someone who promotes the killing of innocent unborn babies a sin. Get a grip. Any Christian who supports people who believe in killing innocent babies is departing Christian principles and may be asking for a millstone around the neck. Like it or not, it may seem a little strong to lefties who promote anything unprincipled, but supporting those who promote evil is evil as well.

Give this priest a break - he is on God's side and those who disagree with him are not, he knows God's will and those who disagree do not, and he would use the power of government to advance his understanding of God's kingdom. It's not easy being morally superior and wiser than everyone who doesn't see things your way.

"It is necessary for salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman pontiff." - Pope Boniface VII.

The priest disagrees with a specific point