Signs & Wonders: The Atheist Bus

We're here
We have no fear
Get used to it

I sure would like to see that on the busses here in central Florida.

This gives me such a pleased feeling, well done England. I think I'll enjoy it.

Riiight... because religion is basically all about worrying and nothing else.

It's no wonder atheists say things like this, when their own understanding of religion is so often facile, contrived, and errant.

These signs are just another example of the conversation about religion getting dumber all the time. Thanks, billboard atheists. Great work.

Sorry, but Mr Waters is completely off the mark. the inclusion of the word 'Probably' had nothing to do with the advertizing code. If Mr Waters knew anything about atheism, he would realize that atheism is not the denial of the possiblity of god(s), merely the recognition of the absence of evidence for him/her/it/them.

You can't prove a negative, so there is always SOME possibity (however small) that Thor, Jehova, Mithra, and Santa Claus actually exist.

Atheism is not a religion based on a faith in the absence of god(s); or if it is, then not collecting stamps is a hobby (as a wit once observed).

Since the 'On Faith' folks can't be bothered to give you the actual facts, allow me to publish the real skinny: Ms Sherine (a charming young lady) was on the Guardian podcast the other morning discussing this issue. She chose the term 'Probably' instead of the alternative 'Almost certainly' that Richard Dawkins uses when discussing the possiblity of divinity.

Dawkins, she, and others involved in the project actually discussed the wording. Ms Sherine just thought 'Probably' sounded more friendly and I agree. No sense in being dogmatic. But atheists have never asserted with certainty that god(s) are proven to not exist and it's poor reporting to imply otherwise.

I admit that the truth of this matter is much less sensational that the fabrication in this piece, but that's unfortunately often the case. this was a cheap drive-by. it was an insulting, content-free, hit piece that the Post should have better researched.

Waste of money, just like the billboards "signed" by god here. I would suggest as an alternative a positive message:

In 120 years, virtually no one will remember you even existed. When you die, you're wormfood, unless your coffin is of sufficient quality to allow you to rot in peace. So, who really gives a sh*t? Just don't get drunk and run me over.

Didn't al Qaeda blow up one of their buses a few years back? Isn't that just inviting Islamic extremists to bomb the bus?

Would it be possible for Christians to argue that they find a word for word quote from the Bible offensive? What if the quote below was put on the buses?

From circa 30 C.E. (purportedly)

King James Version: Matthew 16:28

Jesus said:
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

Whoops

Too bad England has such a poor policy on things we take for granted as 1st Amendment freedoms here... in particular their libel laws are terrible. Anyone who has followed the scientology issue knows about the damage bad regulations can cause in conjunction with litigation-prone cults.

Where to start? Firstly, it is a LONDON bus. London is home to 8 million people, about half (900,000) of the Britain's Muslims, at least 20% of its Catholics (over a million), almost all of its Jews (250,000). Plus Hindus, evangelicals, the Anglicans who still can be bothered to believe. And atheists.

Free speech, sure. But it's not free speech to yell "fire" in a crowded theatre. This is a grossly provocative act. We don't allow buses to proclaim "There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his Prophet", nor "I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic church" nor "Know o Israel the Lord thy God is One".

As Blasmaic said, one of these self-same buses was blown up 3 years ago. We have to live together and get along with each other, or at least not blow each other up. Atheology is a faith just like any other. It can't be proven. What it CAN be is extremely offensive to those who believe in a different creed.

Waters is just having fun stirring the pot. Easy to encourage other folk to be brave. Not appreciated when you live in London.

Mary Cunningham
London

Like Waters and the rest, Dawkins does not live in London. He lives in ease and safety in Cambridge. Let him festoon the buses in Cambridge all he wants. Leave us alone.

CharlesBakerHarris:

You are right - this ad does miss the point about religion - or at least a point.

It does not point out that what you choose to do for recreation on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday is irrelevant to your right to judge other people's lives and lifestyles, or that earning your living from exploiting other people's vulnerability and credibility is a dubious exercise at best, whether selling snake oil or God. Whether you are a believer or not, you will attach that description to some in the faith industry. All we might disagree about is who and how many.

However, pointing that out on the side of a London bus might just be needlessly provocative, so a lower key message (and a positive one) is more appropriate. As for answers, there sre plenty of churches in London still with signs pointing out "The Wages of Sin" or advertising the Alpha program.

If atheists want to enter the public dialogue then why not? With the exception of a few like Dawkins, we tend not to want or need to push our viewpoint as as far as we can see the obvious doesn't need that much selling. The effect of this campaign is in part to remind people just how much religous propaganda surrounds them and let them excercise their brains and be aware of the choices they make.

Link to the campaign since the WP refuses to include it in any of their articles: http://www.justgiving.com/atheistbus

The burden of proof is on the believers, not the atheists. As another poster below mentions, you can't prove something doesn't exist. Show me some proof that an invisible man in the sky is running the show and I'll start going to church. Until then I will worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

RAmen.

The stupidity of atheists.

Earth has no brain and even if you wait another billion years for a brain to appear, it won't happen.

Here is the question, idiots. Where in the world did your brain come from? Before you can give me an idiotic answer, try to figure out this first -- how did flowers and the bees come into being?

Probably, EARTH HAS A BRAIN to produce such very pretty flowers which humans cannot do from scratch despite its brain.

Or probably, people who think this way has no brain?

To think that the slogan was partly financed by a "renown scientist" just proves where this world is heading - DOOM.

Mad scientists, we have lots of them.

I read this article, and I laughed. You know why? Check out psalms 14:1. Even if you are an atheist or you are in anyother religion, there are online bibles. What you will see there will astound you.

By the way, why do the atheists need to form an association? To strengthen their atheism?

Finally, everyone is complaining: 'There is God...There is no God" Stop complaining. God exists, irrespective of whether you believe he does or not. So if you believe, fine. If you don't believe, still fine. The Bible says he cannot deny himself. I know he exists, because I have seen his works. I also know people who do not believe he exists. I'm not bothered by any atheists or anything-at least you've heard the gospel. So, your blood is on your head because you were warned (Ezekiel 33). Let the christians stop bothering themselves about countering these acts and just do things according to the leading of the Holy spirit. Just preach the gospel. The fact that we are opposed like this is another proof that God exists, but some people have refused to believe (Romans 1). After all, we were given ample warning-it's not like we did not know that things like this were going to happen (Matthew 24, 2nd Timothy 3).

So, just do you, be you, and Let God be God. Amen.

Mr. Waters, your article failed to mention that the atheist bus ad has garnered overwhelming support, raising over 20 times the fundraising target.

You can check out the donation page here: http://www.justgiving.com/atheistbus

Also, the goal of the ads is to get people to talk about religion and to let atheists know that they're not alone.

Any discussion generated by the ads is preferable to the alternative, blind faith without thought.

Including the word "probably" in the ad really misstates the Atheistic view. In the same way a very devout Christian wouldn't say that God "probably" exists. "Probably" is, at best, an Agnostic approach... there may exist, there may not exist, a superior being. Atheists say there is no God. Period. Because no definitive scientific evidence exists to prove otherwise. Saying there is a God doesn't make it so. Obviously it's a faith versus proof issue. All this to say, the bus ad is worthless.

I think it's presumptious to promote that belief in God creates worry. From the posts here, most people are worried about other people and how they might be help accountable by others for their choices. That is where anxiety creeps in, not for some divine retribution/personally directed lightening/eternal damnation. Isn't there a study that was recently publicized that people with a faith community were generally happier than non-believers? Which I would interpret as believers ARE enjoying their lives, thanks for asking...why don't the atheists make a statement about THEMSELVES?

SEATTLEDODGER

You wrote, "Sorry, but Mr Waters is completely off the mark. the inclusion of the word 'Probably' had nothing to do with the advertizing code. If Mr Waters knew anything about atheism, he would realize that atheism is not the denial of the possiblity of god(s), merely the recognition of the absence of evidence for him/her/it/them."

This may or may not be the official "definition" of an "atheist" but that is not even what some of the people on these posts who describe themself as "atheist" have to say.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

SOBUGGED

You wrote, "Jesus said:
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

Whoops"

Did you ever think that physical death is just a transition to something else but that there is "spiritual death" which is very real and that some will not experience that?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum"

well, thank you thomas paul moses baum (can i just call you tom?). though i'm not sure your concern for me is all that sincere; still it's the thought that counts.

anyway, if one of your gods comes down to you, as he purportedly did to abe, and instructs you to kill an innnocent child, i hope you show more moral fortitude than did old abe and that you at least argue with the apparition. and if he tells you to fly a plane into a building, i implore you to ignore the voices in your head.

meanwhile, i and the rest of the 'reality-based' community will continue to lead our lives with as much purpose and meaning as we can cram into them. how sad that you look for these wonderful, human inventions in an old, dusty book.

perhaps it's you who should take care and be ready.

Personally, I think the concept of "god" is utterly ridiculous and obviously outmoded; but I do in fact understand that some people have an intense need and desire to understand the universe around them as an expression of some cosmic theatrical director. If one needs to reduce the grandeur of reality to a predictable narrative, with winners, losers, and a grand authority to decide the fate of all "souls", that is fine with me. Just please keep it to yourself and stay out of public policy decisions.

I do not think that the message on the side of the bus is anything like shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre. And I do not think that atheism is a relgion, nor anything like a religeon. This is hardly offensive. That it could be bothersome to religious people is a commentary on their inner turmoil, more than anything in the message itself. Didn't anyone ever stop to think, that perhaps, this slogan on the side of the bus, might make someone smile, and might actually help someone to feel better?

SeattleDodger wrote:

"Sorry, but Mr Waters is completely off the mark. the inclusion of the word 'Probably' had nothing to do with the advertizing code. If Mr Waters knew anything about atheism, he would realize that atheism is not the denial of the possiblity of god(s), merely the recognition of the absence of evidence for him/her/it/them.

You can't prove a negative, so there is always SOME possibity (however small) that Thor, Jehova, Mithra, and Santa Claus actually exist.

Atheism is not a religion based on a faith in the absence of god(s); or if it is, then not collecting stamps is a hobby (as a wit once observed)."

-------------------------------------------------

Exactly!

The problem is many people cannot grasp this distinction. This is partly due to the inaccurate definitions of atheism that are falsely promoted by many religious people but this confusion also persists because well-meaning atheists either fail to understand the distinction themselves or because they are unable to communicate the concept to others as clearly as SeattleDodger.

Nicely done.

regarding post by charlesbakerharris "It's no wonder atheists say things like this, when their own understanding of religion is so often facile, contrived, and errant."

I find it interesting that the only people I've ever met who have actually READ all or large quantities of the bible and other religious texts and discussed them with others are either Jewish or athiest.

I had a deeply religious upbringing by an athiest and an agnostic - and I personally have read the King James v 3 times cover to cover after leaving home (where we read the bible every night as a family as they supported my trist into Baptist teachings).

I've read large quantities of the I Ching, Koran, Talmud, and many others. Have you?

Signed: Typically well read and informed athiest.

Yonkers, New York
28 October 2008

If not for that proviso in the Advertising Code, that bus sign should really read: "THERE CERTAINLY IS NO GOD."

Considering that a group of atheists are paying for that bus sign, people who view the sign know that the sign has been reworded merely to comply with that particular proviso of the Advertising Code.

Only agnostics could believe that "There's probably no God." On the other hand, atheists are certain that there is no God.

Mariano Patalinjug
MarPatalinjug@aol.com

'There's probably no God'

Understandable, coming from high-minded, center-of-the-universe human beings who think, postulate or whatever they call it that there just cannot be another being in the universe that can create just as they are able to create. And they say if there actually is, well, never on a higher scale than they..of course. Just couldnt be.

Talk about a limited mindset.

SEATTLEDODGER

You wrote, "well, thank you thomas paul moses baum (can i just call you tom?).", sure, that is what most people call me, I only sign my whole name because it is my name.

Then you wrote, "though i'm not sure your concern for me is all that sincere; still it's the thought that counts."

I know that it would seem hard to believe, from some of the hate-filled garbage being spewed out supposedly in God's Name from some "Christians", but God cares for each and every one of us and His Plan is for ALL, not some, not most but ALL to be with Him in His Kingdom.

If God was even remotely like what some say, who would want to have anything to do with Him, surely I wouldn't.

Then you wrote, " how sad that you look for these wonderful, human inventions in an old, dusty book."

Actually, I didn't find God in an old, dusty book, it is more like He found me.

One day, not only you but everyone will know that God is real and I will tell you, there are going to be quite a few "Christians" that are in for quite an awakening, considering that the only thing that some of them seem to know about God is His Name.

As I have said before, God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and it is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Can't "good" atheists and "good" religious people agree that how we treat one another (i.e., behavior) is more important than theology or lack of it? It is ironic that atheists can be as eager to convert people to their ranks as the religious are...perhaps because it is anxiety provoking to all humans to know that others sharply disagree with their core beliefs, and people seek to relieve this anxiety by convincing others to tell them they're right.

WSFN

You wrote, "I've read large quantities of the I Ching, Koran, Talmud, and many others. Have you?".

No, I haven't, but I have met God and God is not only a Trinity but He is a BEING OF PURE LOVE.

I have also met satan, he is real also.

By the way, God is not a He, a She or an It even tho God-Incarnate was a Male.

Believing that God doesn't exist does not make that a true statement, any more than believing that God does exist make that a true statement but one day ALL will know that God Is.

I used to believe that God was real until I met Him and until then I would never say that I knew He was real but I would say that I believed He was Real.

It seems that there are some people that interchange those two words, believe and know, but they do not mean the same thing.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

KUCHLICH

You wrote, "Can't "good" atheists and "good" religious people agree that how we treat one another (i.e., behavior) is more important than theology or lack of it?"

First off, I do not consider myself a "good" religious person, just a messenger and I have been chosen to speak and I have said yes and as I wrote to Seattledodger, I copy here, "As I have said before, God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and it is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows."

There are going to be some that are in for quite a shock to find out that God is not the ego-maniac that some seem to think that He Is.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Strictly speaking, 'probability' is against the particular God in question, from the point of view of both proponents and exponents of that God.

Why atheists need to put that on a bus any more than certain other people need to put the opposite position on a gazillion billboards or my county courthouse, I dunno.

I would say that if in England, people aren't allowed to broadcast idiotic pronouncements about my personal character for believing neither of these positions, well, it may not be how we do things in America, but I'm not seeing a gripe there. :)

". . . 'God Speaks' billboard campaign that began in the U.S. in 1998 . . ."

I had forgotten about those.

MARY_CUNNINGHAM

Why are you so worried? God has a Plan and His Plan will come to Fruition. If you have read any of my posts, I have said repeatly that God's Plan is for ALL OF HUMANITY to be with Him in the Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth.

The book of Revelation is quite true and it is unfolding before our very eyes, if you are looking for worldly security in this world, you will not find it.

It seems that many people wish to give away their freedoms for security and about all that they will end up with is less of both.

The world is a mess if people will take an honest look at it, the world is more than someone's back yard.

Jesus said, "All power and authority has been given unto Me", in other words: God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.

It is not about religion, it is not about rules and regulations, it is not about telling others how they should live their lives.

It is about God and the FACT that He cares for each and every one of us and His Plan is for ALL OF HUMANITY to be with Him in the Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth.

It is about the GOOD NEWS which is for everyone just as the Angels announced at Jesus's Birth.

If God's Plan wasn't for EVERYONE, then it would not be much of a Plan, would it?

We should pray for God's Will and just do the best that we can, do you think that God expects any more than that?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Have to be honest here Thomas Paul Moses Baum, most people in your branch of this question believe all manner of things, but your presentation here gives me the impression that you are delusional, or high or both.

Most of the gods I've met here in this forum aren't the kind of critters I'd waste time spitting on, but your gods are just ... twilight zone.

I enjoy my life. I don't worry. I believe in God.

But if others want to put forth an alternate opinion, that's their right.

I'm not going to worry about it.

Well, I gotta back to enjoying my life.

The add doesn't target any particular group. It's just an add, probably testing whether free speech still exists in England. I hope to God England passes.

I find it hilarious that there is so much fuss over this (BTW the ad has raised over 20 times the stated goal amount). If one are secure in his faith, why get upset by something so innocuous?
Why not let your all-powerful God take care of it? A lightning bolt? an earthquake?

But seriously...I often suspect that people who must vociferously assert their faith (and demonize those who don't share it) are not so secure in that faith as they claim to be.

And some of them seem to regard Satan as more important than God...they see him (Satan) everywhere and spend all their time and energy fending him off. Don't they trust God to take care of it? And why does God allow Satan such scope anyhow? (For an odd take on this question, look again at the Book of Job. It's in the Bible, which is must reading for every atheist.) Oh well...

ThomasBraun

You replied to me:

You wrote, "Jesus said:
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

Whoops"

Did you ever think that physical death is just a transition to something else but that there is "spiritual death" which is very real and that some will not experience that?

Take care, be ready.

Yes, I am aware that the belief that the Jesus figure was really referring to “spiritual death” as opposed to “physical death” is the usual way which believers avoid coming to the conclusion that a non tortured reading of the text would bring one to, that the Jesus figure uttered an obviously false prophecy.

Those who believe in the veracity of religious mythology have an amazingly powerful emotional incentive to go any mental length necessary, to avoid the faith destroying implications of any reasonably honest reading of the text. There's a passage in Genesis where God suddenly attacks and attempts to “kill” Moses. Happily Mose's wife is able to ward God off by waving at him the bloody foreskin of a penis which she had just quickly trimmed off someone (Moses himself I think, but I could be wrong). Do you suppose that God was attempting to “physically” or “spiritually” kill Moses? Do you think that the founding spirit and purpose of all existence and life, is the direct or even indirect author of this immoral, semi pornographic cartoon story?

Rick Frederick, Minneapolis, Minnesota
(sorry about the dumb sign on of 'sobugged' - i got it from Bugmenot.com which makes availble sign on names and passwords so one doesn't have go through registration process)

Thomas Braun

see post below

sorry my citation was inaccurate, the passage is in Exodus (chap 4) not Genesis. Citation below. Also please note the part about God "hardening Pharoah's heart" so he can inflict his plagues

19: And the LORD said unto Moses in Midian, Go, return into Egypt: for all the men are dead which sought thy life.
20: And Moses took his wife and his sons, and set them upon an ass, and he returned to the land of Egypt: and Moses took the rod of God in his hand.
21: And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
22: And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
23: And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.
24: And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.
25: Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.
26: So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.

>If there is no God and you prepare for the hereafter, no harm done

>If there is a God, and you don't prepare for the hereafter accordingly, you are in serious trouble

I always chuckle how a vast majority of believers in a god become so vehement in their protestations when confronted by those who do not believe. It would seem to me that if the god you believe in is so almighty then why worry about the few who think otherwise. This makes me believe even more that for the most part religion and the belief in a god is a human phenomenon.

Well, I would have said "There is no evidence for the existence of a god, in fact, most evidence is to the contrary. Thus it would be illogical and most likely a complete waste of time to live your life as though the existence of a god was a reality." But that would probably be too long to put on the side of a bus.

The fact that I want to win this argument, and each of you also do, is a clear indication that we are in a dominance struggle that ultimately determines our relative survivability and reproduction (our fitness), and thus our evolution by natural selection. If you really thought there was a god you'd just let me win the argument.

There is a God and I know and love him. I also am rejoicing in Him and enjoying real life as a result.

Whoever claims that knowing God and enjoying life are mutually exclusive, doesn't know Jesus.

Inviting anyone who might be concerned to speak out on behalf of suffering Christians in India:

http://ncronline3.org/drupal/?q=node/2365

American idiots, like spiderman, will be already praying for the gods to send a lightning to burn all those non-believers! And, by non-believers I mean all those who don't follow their specific religion! They are WASPs, so if you are not an evangelical (what's that??!!!) you are a non-believer, and a sinner, and must be burned! Totally fascists. That's the Fox generation of american morons.

The fool has said in his heart, "there is no God".

When you see a painting, how do you know there was a painter?

well, the painting itself is proof there had to be a painter. You couldnt ask for better proof that there was a painter than the painting itself. You dont need to be a rocket scientist to understand, you just need eyes that see and a brain that works. It goes like this " painting...duh...painter" I call it the "duh" principle.

When you see a building, how do you know there was a builder? Again, you couldnt ask for better proof that there was a builder than the building itself.

The same holds true for watch- watch maker, automobile-automobile maker, t.v.-t.v. maker, micro wave oven - micro wave oven manufacturer. Anything with design and purpose has a designer and creator.

When you look at Creation - how do you know there was a Creator ? ... Duh.

- ALSO -

Science has shown that the Universe had a "beginning", a starting point. They tend to call it "a big bang", but there is something else Science has shown us, and that is that "out of nothing, nothing comes" (in fact if there was ever a time when "Nothing" existed, then "nothing" would exist today. ) and that things at rest tend to stay at rest. So, what made "nothing", on a particular tuesday afternoon, explode into everything?

For every effect, there has to be a cause. At the risk of infinite regression, there has to be a "FIRST CAUSE" . For there to be a material, imminent universe to exist, there had to be a transendant, uncaused, immaterial first cause.

I worship the Transcendent Uncaused Immaterial First cause of the Material Universe.

We celebrate His birthday on Dec. 25th

US-conscience wrote:

"For every effect, there has to be a cause. At the risk of infinite regression, there has to be a "FIRST CAUSE" ."

You need to brush up on your Quantum Physics. The big bang is though to have been a quantum event. It has been clearly shown that quantum events are purely probabalistic in nature, and have no "cause". A good example is the decay of a radioactive atom. For a large population of atoms, one can acurately predict the decay of the population as a whole given it's half-life. But for any single atom, there is nothing that "causes" its decay. It is purely a chance phenomena governed soled by the probability functions of the particles that comprise the atom.

Thank "god" belief in a God is waning. We are on our way to a better place and, of course, that place is here on the very real earth.

"... Science has shown that the Universe had a "beginning", a starting point ... "

Actually science has theorized this beginning, this starting point. It's a hypothesis, you've heard of that word too haven't you?

Funny how you believers reach for science as an Absolute Truth when you can fit it into your religious nonsense, but reject it out of hand when it refutes some other core nonsense.

You don't know squat about science, nor how it works, nor why it works.

It is not a religion, a treasured and well-worn scientific theory can be thrown on the same dung heap where religion belongs if any of its fundamental premises are shown to be false.

I guess you just can't understand that, can you?

If there is a God, and if religion is so valuable, so necessary, why has it not brought UNITY to the world? All through history these groups have slaughtered each other, even millions of their own. It will not end nor will it ever bring peace and unity as long as you are all so SURE of your own rightousness. Where in history is evidence to the contrary? We who don't believe, or at least doubt, know that you are dragging us all to destruction with you. The world will go up in nuclear flames to kill the unbelievers (those who don't agree with YOU), and the few survivors will be left with a hell on earth. I don't want to be here. Thank God, if he's there, that I will have lived out my life before it happens. Man will exploit and destroy his fellow man and the earth that God, nature, whatever, gave him, until he destroys himself. I DO believe that. That IS certain.

SOBUGGED

Rick, thanks for replying,, first off I will tell you that I do not know what everything in the bible means and that there are some things that I know and that there are some things that I believe.

With that said, I will give you my take on the verses that you referred to.

God gave us free will and for our free will to be truly free, God can NOT interfere with it.

In God's Plan, which is for ALL OF HUMANITY, God wanted to not only be our Creator but to also become One of Us, the way that I look at this is: Before God could only look down upon us, so to speak, but by becoming One of Us, He could look right at us, human to human, and also speak directly to us, human to human.

By giving us free will and a human nature with all of which that entails, God had to make it safe enough for Him to become One of Us and live long enough to do what He came for.

That is why I believe that God could seem very severe in driving into us the importance of obedience, when that obedience, when the time came, could be the difference between life and death to a helpless child, which Jesus was when He was born.

As far as "hardening" Pharoah's heart, look around the world, including in our own back yard, how many have hardened their hearts to their fellow human beings, is their any difference?

God in "hardening someone's heart" actually lets that someone harden their own heart and with their own acts they banish Love from their heart.

Pharoah by holding on so tightly to his power as ruler and not wanting to get rid of, even for a few days, his "cheap" labor brought it upon himself.

This has happened many times throughout history, sometimes God directly interceeds and sometimes God interceeds thru us.

I can see why some would, to say the least, find it so hard to believe that God is a BEING OF PURE LOVE considering some of the vile, bitter, putrid hatred being spewed out in His Name, but nevertheless, He Is.

I had no idea that the phrase, God Is Love, was literal until God the Father came into my heart and to be honest, there is no way that I could conceive of it being literal, I had to experience it.

Some people seem to think that God created hell to sling people into if they crossed Him, God did not create hell, if someone dies and wakes up in hell, so to speak, they will know that they built it themself and that it is not seperation from God but that it is going to God and seeing yourself and all of your wrongdoing in the light of PURE LOVE.

God knew that not all would repent, which is taking personal responsibility for what one does, and that is why He came up with His Plan.

His Plan is to free all and from some of what I have heard in person and read on some of these posts from some who put the label "Christian" on themself, this really upsets some of them.

Hell and spiritual death are both real and Jesus won the keys, so to speak, to both and He will use them in due time, God's Time.

As I have said, it is important what one does and why one does it and what one does, God looks at the person not at the "label" someone applies to themself.

Have you ever thought that each and every one of us is a gift to humanity?

What kind of gift that we are, is up to us, we have free will.

How is it out there in Minnesota? I've never been out that way, I grew up in MD, near the water, and that is one of the reasons why some of the stories about Jesus and His Apostles in the bible I can relate to.

You mentioned your "dumb sign", does all of the signs from Bugmenot.com have bug in them?

I just use my given name and then sign my postings with my full name even tho I am nowhere near that formal. Tom or Mose is what most people call me, I happened to take the name Moses as my confirmation name since I have been called Moses since before I can remember.

God works in mysterious ways, that's for sure.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I loved it. There needs to be less prejudice against non-believers in this country. Europe is far more advanced when it comes to that. Here in the US people take offense, as if we are insulting their intelligence and beliefs (we are :))

Good posts from SeattleDodger and others. I would contribute money and time to have more signs like that here in the DC area.

Thomas Paul, you need to have your head checked..

FLIPPER1

You wrote, "Thomas Paul, you need to have your head checked.."

That is just what some said at the time of Jesus about Jesus, thank you.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomasbaum: There is no god, so no non-existent god gave us anything.

GARAK

You wrote, "Thomasbaum: There is no god, so no non-existent god gave us anything.

In a way you are right, a non-existent god didn't give us anything but God gave us everything but I do not think that is what you meant and that is why I wrote the following sentence.

This is just your opinion and you happen to be wrong.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

KHOTE14

You wrote, "Have to be honest here Thomas Paul Moses Baum, most people in your branch of this question believe all manner of things, but your presentation here gives me the impression that you are delusional, or high or both."

I appreciate your honesty and your impression not only could be but is wrong, time will tell.

You also wrote, "Most of the gods I've met here in this forum aren't the kind of critters I'd waste time spitting on,"

I would have to agree with you on this and I would have to include some of the people who call themself "Christian", considering that, about the only thing some of them seem to know about God is His Name.

And then, "but your gods are just ... twilight zone."

First off, it is not gods as in more than one, even tho God is a Trinity, God is One.

Second, is it the "twilight zone" because it is so simple?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Charlesbakerharris:

Your comment that atheists' understanding of religion is "so often facile, contrived, and errant" is laughable, given that it comes from a person who has chosen to embrace a world view based on lies and ignorance at the expense of common sense and rational thought.

The truth is, we atheists see your religious faith for what it is: blind adherence to belief in the impossible, despite zero evidence in support of those beliefs and mountains of evidence against them.

In any other context, we would call those beliefs silly ignorant and stupid (and possibly insane). Yet the religious folks seem to believe that their beliefs should get a free pass from scrutiny... Which is fine with me, just as long as religion stays out of the public sphere.

But if you want to trot out your belief system as somehow being essential to the development of public morality, then we all have a right - no, an obligation - to look at exactly what it is you are preaching.

Sadly, religious teachings are lacking when subjected to any sort of scrutiny (which is why all of them have a built in prohibition against questioning dogma). The fact that they are all based 100% BS is just the first of their many failures - as moral codes, as descriptions of the universe, etc.

"The Atheist Bus" huh? Sounds more like "The Agnostic Bus". Any way you want to call it though, it's amusing.

God looks at these things and chuckles.

Oh yes, He does!

Yes! This brought a smile to my face.