Why They Pander to Christian Voters

I believe it's the responsibility of the religious leaders to separate their views and roles from the political arena. Freedom of and from Religion in America is supposed to be part of our fundamental rights. Unfortunately, by having large blocs of religious fundamentalist groups taking political stances, and thus, imploring their congregants to vote one way or another, they have mixed faith and politics in a most unsavory and destructive way. That is one of the weaknesses of religion in general. It preys on the believer's desire for guidance and spiritual connection with like-believers so that the leaders of the church/religion can increase their power, wealth or other personal gain. That is why I cannot belong to any religion. It's shameful and exposes the hypocrisy of the so-called religious leaders.

Easy. Religion has poisoned politics.

"It's obvious to everyone outside Scranton, Pa., that Obama chose Biden as his not-so-surprising running mate, in large part, because he needed someone (preferably older) who could speak to voters who consider themselves patriotic, working-class, "Jesus, Mary and Joseph" Catholics."

Except that Biden is not a true Catholic. A real Catholic could not vote to kill the unborn. And the Church is finally catching on and is taking on Sen. Biden's views.

The real shame in the Church is that a Protestant evangelical like Sarah Palin is more Catholic on the issues than Sen. Biden, Sen. Kennedy, Speaker Pelosi, Mayor Guliani, etc.

Christians and politicians are two peas in a pod. Both are more interested in worshiping themselves and feeding their superiority complex than in helping others. Christians seem to think they have all the answers all the time, just like politicians. And pointing out all their many inconsistencies just short-circuits their tiny brains, like a politician under fire. So it seems only natural that a self-serving politician would pander to those equally self-serving hypocrites who are so convinced they know what's best for everyone.

The democrats are in a panic. McCain is playing it cool while Palin acts as a lightning rod. It's a good strategy. The more they beat up on Palin, the more people think about how they beat up on Hillary. So people just keep getting more disillusioned with the democrats, because they got disillusioned with Edwards to begin with. To me it doesn't matter. They can hammer away all they want. Never lose your illusions. It's like magic.

The lake is not on fire.

Agree with Anonymous. A no brainer - religion is the poisoner, of politics and a lot of other things.

Dude, David Ellis, you put that so well!

To "MarkF" who said, "...Biden is not a true Catholic. A real Catholic could not vote to kill the unborn."

A real Christian also does not advocate for war and kill the alreadyborn in foreign lands in pursuit of fossil fuels.

Oboebrad, Thank you! Well written. It is amazing that the religious lemmings cannot think for themselves and require spoon feeding!

I hope the moderate and the non-evangelicals will show their power this time around and not allow the republicans to win! It is a shame that a small minority can wag the whole country because they vote. I don't particularly like the Democrats either but if McCain gets elected, we will have the third world war! How can someone so naive and a liar be just a heartbeat away from the button? McCain lost me when he pandered to the neocons!

You don't always see your own progress being made. Then you wonder how did he do that. If it turns out good, you are happy. If not, your problem is no progress or abandoned progress. Love conquers all though, so progress is only made if we are united. Some of us are more united than others because we are more equal and equally more prepared. That takes a lot of time. The power base doesn't rest on being divided. The more divided we are the less opportunity we can make to solve problems. As you like it, you shall have it. The goal is to make you happy, not to make you disillusioned. The result speaks for itself and hopefully the business will go well for you. It could always go the other way. It could go to hate and disillusion or love and illusion. Love is magical so all your dreams do come true if you keep believing. We can't have victory without belief or love without the magic. Quality pays for itself and campaigns sell a lot of junk at a premium price. Blood and bad blood.

You roused the rabble by writing this. All that writing to get more people attacking religion. If people want religion, have at it. Watch them rabble now.

And how do you think the rest of us, who are not only not in either camp but not even Christians, feel about the phenomenon threatening American's
finest civil traditions of religious respect and
separation of church and state?!

My fear is that the Republicans are looking at the far right like Karl Marx looked at Stalin and his thugs--Russia is still suffering the effects--we all need to wake up and not pander to any extremist groups (left or right)

Religion is for cowards and deluded folk. Pandering to deluded folk is probably not a good idea.

As Einstein said, God is a childish contruct. I live in a nation of deluded children.

"Poisoned" are the minds of many voters that instead of being free-thinkers are holding on the ancient absurd belief of life after dead.

People want God out of their schools. taken off their money....but in the White house

People tend to think that religion and government exist to serve their individual personal interests. In fact it is the other way around. Church and State, whether separate or intermingled, serve a primary purpose -- to control the masses by getting individuals to conform to a common set of rules. If you do not conform, you will be shunned.

McCain, once a maverick, has learned this lesson all too well, but the lesson was learned at least a decade too late. McCain, if elected, stands a very high chance of death or infirmity. Where will that leave America?

Its all about culture. Who we are, who we have been, and what kind of culture we will be.

We are in a war culture now and will be for some time to come. Basically you never break the command chain in times like this. Think FDR. The democrats have a tough battle and I doubt they will win it. All these relationships are set up around battling terrorism and to stop that and rearrange the entire government is unlikely. Anything is possible, it's just highly unprobable that the democrats will take over. All the religious bickering won't change a thing. It won't move numbers. So you can stop attacking each other.

The United States was founded by a bunch of religious fanatics who turned their backs on the Golden Age in England and set across stormy seas to clear a piece of land in the midst of aggressive Native Indian tribes where they could interpret their bible the way they saw fit...and we are supposed to admire that?

Sorry citizens: We are all living in Jonestown and they start pumping us full of Kool-Aid the first day of Kindergarten.

"If you do not conform, you will be shunned."
I guess all the artists can go do something else and we won't have art either.

The United States was founded by a bunch of rebellious pioneers. We need more rebellion and less attacking of our heritage. Get lost.

Rebellious pioneers anxious to test their limits continued to stream over the mountains. In 1772, the settlers of what are now the Jonesborough

Jonesborough was going to be the capitol of the state of Franklin. The plan changed.

...And Jonestown was going to be the new capitol of Guyana. That plan changed too.

What didn't change however is that we continue to live with the Puritan's religious fanaticism in our DNA. Somehow the fact that Sarah Palin belongs to a church where they speak in tongues is mitigated by the fact that the Assemblies of God has 16,000,000 members; somehow Palin addressing the graduating students at her church and talking about how God wants to build a pipeline is okay because...because...because...Could someone explain it to me? Frankly, I damn Sarah Palin's God if he/she truly is concerned with a pipeline while everyday 10,000 innocent children who live in dire poverty succumb to diarrhea and never get the chance to live.

Yes, I damn Sarah Palin's God. If he/she is laying around in heaven designing an Alaska pipeline I'd suggest he get off his fat ass and do something about poverty and disease.

It is a disgusting nation that presidents need to pander to religious values. Ones lack of faith or faith in Jesus has nothing what so ever to do with their ability to do with leading a once great nation.

Politics was such a wholesome good time for billions of years until Jesus came this century and took all the fun out of it. Why can't everyone just agree with ME?

Poverty is a challenge for the church and disease is for the hospitals to figure out. Government causes both, so it can't solve the problem. It is the problem. Reduce government and you reduce poverty and disease. Increase it and you end up with Cuba or some other mess. You end up with the government running the Washington Post and more government and less paper. Basically you end up bankrupt like the mortgage industry that came to be a part of government through the sneaky dealings of small minded people who fear risks.

"It's obvious to everyone outside Wasilla, Alaska, that McCain chose Palin as his surprise running mate, in large part, because he needed someone"

....To distract the only people who might blindly vote for him away from the fact they were being told to blindly not-vote for him by the same people a few months ago...

The mission is to reduce government, so the debt does that. It's all spent and now to bring down the debt the size must be reduced. The alternative is to pass it on to the next generation and let it sink them. It's already sinking us, so the whole thing needs reduced in size. It's like a cell that keeps growing and that cell keeps getting bigger and it's called cancer.

I mean, I freely admit I was wrong when I said McCain would be a respectable opposition candidate for the Presidency, despite the many practical counter-indications, like age and ill-health.

But that was based on him being *willing* to stand up against the GOP, call televangelists 'agents of intolerance, turn down the cheap applause about 'doubling Guantanamo' 'tripling Guantanamo, double-dog-Jack-Bauer-quadrupling Guantanamo,' and instead make a firm stand for our national honor against hatred, torture, irrationality, and everything else he threw in a wastebasket when a preacher asked him to.

Palin is a distraction from who you're proposing to elect, Republicans.

And possibly put in highest office if the guy we *aren't* looking at has another heath episode. To continue policies she doesn't even understand, even if they were a good idea in the first place.

Which, lest we forget, were very, very bad ideas.

We sold our liberties and mortgaged our futures cause Bush said, 'God says this. Shop.'

How's that been working out for us?

I have my liberties and justice. Come and try to take them and there won't be any lawyers or systems to protect you. People with a bad mortgage deserve to lose their property. It's called a sheriffs sale and somebody else buys it who didn't sign a foolish document they could not afford. Buy a car on credit and stop paying. A tow truck will come and take the car. You can't just buy things, then say to somebody else, the payment is your problem. People have their own problems. Your bunk mortgage is your problem. The government is going to come and wash your dishes too. Fools!

When I said 'we' in terms of junk mortgages that deregulated corporations sold and then got bailed out by 'small government' for when their deceptive practices backfired...

I didn't mean that I was personally that kind of sucker.

That's the beauty of having little for 'virtuous Christians' like yourself to take.

When *I* run out of money, that's it. No negative balance, no corporate bailout, no nothing. That's it. Zero.

'Small Government' as advertised may not provide any security for people who work hard and play by the rules, but it sure does seem to find ways to push its 'speculative risk' off on the people when it gambles using the public wealth and loses.

But, then, that's the thing about 'credit economies.'

YOu're taught to want 'small government,' but when the fatcats lose money by selling you a bad mortgage, it's the government's job to bail them out lest the property they sold at a thousand percent profit lose too much value cause they took too much from the working class and left them with only interest owed...

I mean, forget about the money a moment... You have *no idea* how much of conract law and redress of grievances you 'entepreneurs' signed away the past eight years cause Bush told you it'd hurt queers.

Little-mentioned, but Obama's "First 100 Days" are promised just to un-*ahem* all the things Bush did to the law with 'signing statements' and 'executive orders.'

It is neither politics nor religion that is problematic. The problem is a large number of voters whose wilful ignorance built on fear, bigotry, xenophobia and a host of other maladies fed by the religious political hucksters.

These poor folk are only too eager to be led by someone, anyone who is good at creating divisions and making their followers feel empowered and more important than others, even as they ignorantly march lock-step like sheep espousing all of the sins their own religion teaches against.

But, hey.

Bush said he's 'run the Government like a Corporation.'

And so he did.

Too bad you couldn't be bothered to check out the fact he never got gifted with a corporation he didn't *tank,* even if the Ibn Sauds and Bin Ladens actually bailed him out.

But even they showed him the door.

Just gave the brat something else to 'manage' while he tried to shed the Connecticut accent.

Democratic Party Prepares for Obama Crucifixion
http://www.leonblog.com/archives/2008/080912.htm

I personally do not believe that a big, invisible sky fairy controls everything. But I guess a lot of people do. Oh, well . . .

You know-> Charles K. is right:

Obama has jumped the shark...

" Lance:

I personally do not believe that a big, invisible sky fairy controls everything. But I guess a lot of people do. Oh, well . . ."

Well, let me say, I'm just *so* glad the exponents of pure reason have been *so* productive in our national debate.

Poor Sarah! She seems not to realize that she is just a poor, silly, vain Rovian puppet. After the election, regardless of who wins, she will soon be forgotten. All the misery, human corruption and political evil that is perpetrated in the name of God is unfathomable.

Poetic justice.

"Palin Country"

by John Allemang.

Please call us rednecks, 'cause we're proud
to be so rude and rough and loud,
And act in ways elitists think
Proves that we've had too much to drink
In some dead-end Alaskan dive
When ,dude, it just shows we're alive.
We love our church, our kids, our beer;
Can tell you right down to the year
That God put Man upon the earth,
Know life starts well ahead of birth,
Don't give a damn about the arts,
And stay away from foreign parts
Until the moment that we're sent
As John McCain's vice-president.

The great thing, when your neck is red?
Nobody cares what's in your head.
The voters seem to like them dumb,
So why not pick a hockey mum
Who hunts and prays and procreates
To govern these United States?
If you can drive a snowmobile,
The people, bless them, think you're real.
And in the end, who needs a brain?
Just tell your kids they must abstain,
Pretend that when your rule's ignored
It's some great gift sent by the Lord,
And proves you'll go to any length
to make each redneck fault a strength.

From The Globe And Mail. Toronto. Sep 6.2008

Not sure that's one for the ages, but, some eight years ago, I was known to sing,

"They're hanging chads and dimples all because I voted Green." :)

A few reasons:
1. Christians make up the majority of the electorate.
2. A powerful sect of Christians demands to be pandered to.
3. The above sect of Christians are either very gullible, or very cynical, and either way don't care at all about sincerity. So it's easy for men like Gingrich and McCain, who obviously haven't valued their own families, to become the Family Values candidates if they kneel and kiss Dobson and Robertson's rings.

Devotion to religion is the first sign of serious mental illness.

"Devotion to religion is the first sign of serious mental illness."

Oh.

Gee.

Sorry.

Guess you sane people better do your thing, then.

I feel so much healthier, Doc.

Really I do.

I mean, hey, Candide.

Goddess. F thissa noise.

Bring the sanity.

Sorry I ever stopped you.

Bring it.

I mean, you know, it's astounding.

In all this time of monotheists and atheists having the same damn arguments over and over again, it's just never occurred to me that someone could come along and say, 'You're all a bunch of idiots.'

We're all duly cowed.

I'm just *so* glad you've come along to unfrack this thorny little situation that somehow escaped my superstitious little apprehension.

Great.

Done, then.

*looking around.*

K.

Sorted.

Guess I'll just go find me a nice lakeside. Beauty.

// Now that Sarah Palin's nomination has turned America into one big Jerry Springer show //

Just goes to show how depraved US manhood has become.

Considering US female population out numbers male population, it is bit surprising that US male popolation is so depraved.

Protestants objected vehemently to the Catholic Church because it was the State.

Now that the Church is out of politics, Protestants want their church to be the State.

Does not this state remind one of the sectarian fights between Sunny and Shyats?

My fear is that the country is moving in that direction.

"Has politics poisoned our religion or has religion poisoned our politics?"

Both. This bi-directional problem is worse this year than anytime since my birth in the mid-1950s. Bad enough that the mere mention of "faith" (as in "faith 'n' values" or "people of faith") in a political context makes me gag. It's an instant turn-off for me, and it's scant consolation when I can tell that a candidate is making religious noises with insincerity, because he or she feels the practical necessity of courting religious voters.

I'll vote for Obama and Biden this year -- the first time that I, as a voter, will vote for the Presidential or V.P. candidates of either major political party -- but neither of those parties will get a dime of contributions from me until the religious pandering and posturing stop.

David, you stated in your article: "Nearly all major Christian denominations in America are deeply divided over such issues as abortion, homosexuality and gay marriage, war, poverty, evolution and creationism, separation of church and state, and the role of women -- not to mention the role of scripture and who speaks for God."

That's not true at all.

The American church, even with it's numerous problems, remains robust. That's why a significant portion of all campaigning is aimed at "the church."

As the church goes, goes the nation. November will show this to be fact.

He ain't a black JFK doc, he's a black Jesus. Boy was I confused.

"Lest we forget; Jesus ended up on the cross and Pontius Pilate went to dinner with clean hands. It wasn’t Pilate who did Jesus in, it was the unhappy focus group beta-testing Jerusalem’s version of American Idol. History tends to repeat itself. Now that Obama has become Jesus in the eyes of most Democrats, he is obviously destined to be abandoned by his constituency; and crucified. Sarah Palin of course, will be enjoying her dinner in the White House and I will be home enjoying mine while I think warmly, “I told you so.”"
http://www.leonblog.com/archives/2008/080912.htm

One of the greatest tragedies in this country is the way the religious right has politically handled the abortion issue. Our political candidates have not been the best because of it. It seems these guys would even pick the devil if he promised them what they wanted. We now even have a supreme court that interferes in presidential elections. We now have unwanted Iraq war where Iran will be the winner. We have deficits that are destroying and maybe have destroyed our country. They even have blocked the morning after pill and that is an excellent way to reduce the need for abortions. We really could do better if we came to a common ground. Lets stop this tragedy.

Yonkers, New York
13 September 2008

The straight answer, David Waters, is that religion has poisoned U.S. politics, and that politics, in turn, likewise has poisoned religion.

Why are politicians shamelessly pandering to religion, to God and the saints, to religious denomnations of all kinds?

They have to because in America, if they don't, they self-destruct in the polls.

The other side of the coin is that politics has likewise poisoned religion. You now have the spectacle of churchmen everywhere playing partisan politics at the pulpit, something which otherwise they should not be doing because they risk losing their tax-exempt status. But, happily for them, they know they can get away with it.

Churcmen must feel compelled, naturally of course, to take that side of the political divide which agrees with them completely on abortion, birth control, same-sex marriage, creationism and ID, faith-based projects, stem-cell research, tax breaks for corporations and the wealthy, conservative litmus test for judges and other issues dear to the heart of the religious.

In sum, it is corruption afflicting both religion and politics in America.

Mariano Patalinjug
MarPatalinjug@aol.com

Some just end up under common ground too, buried so in the end we all meet on the common ground.

There's no such thing as sanity and that's the sanest fact P, that's how the story goes. Love is a crazy thing a wild thing.

Unfortunately, the very popular world view and political position "either you're with us or you're against us" didn't begin with the Bush doctrine. It began a long time ago.

U.S. always finds a way, because where there's a will there's a way. Some people don't have willpower and remain as alway powerless. More or less everything is united or divided. The power base is united and the enemies are divided. The power base can be united and divided. The enemy can only be divided, because evil never unites people. It just keeps dividing, while power and goodness keep multiplying to conquer new frontiers. Love conquers all and hate falls down and takes the enemy down, all the way to hell. We can get you there faster. Love is always slow, it just seems fast. It's the same old story, with a different end line. It's always a new frontier, so it's always the same old love of country that defines each generation and future generations to come after ours. God's work is our own.

"Nearly all major Christian denominations in America are deeply divided over such issues as..."

Deeply divided meaning a small, vocal faction dissents from traditional views of the Bible, not in the sense that churches are split in half over the issue. Religion is by definition an act of adhering to traditions. You can't change that by writing superficial articles in the media.

As to the question whether or not religion has poisoned politics and vice-versa, perhaps we should recall "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and render unto God that which is God's" - it seems that lately we in this country prefer to think that God is Caesar. . . which makes God a tyrant

“When facism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
Sinclair Lewis "It Can't Happen Here" 1935

Religion to me is a very personal thing.
I believe. I pray. I have my own views on the topics in this column. What I don't do is try to inflict my beliefs on my neighbours.

I'll start paying more attention to the candidates when they start closing their speeches with "May God bless everyone, everywhere, regardless of race, color or creed. May God speak to our own hardened hearts and cause us to look deeply into our own transgressions before waving our fingers at others."

As a Christian who believes in separation of church and state, I agree with a previous poster on this site who said that mixing politics and religion is like tossing ice cream into horse manure. Nothing happens to the manure, but you destroy the ice cream. Whenever a politician brings up religion in a speech, I discount it as tainted and colored by the need to get elected.

Seriously, if you buy the story of Jesus dying to save us, you appear gullible. Furthermore, evangelicals wear this gullibility on their sleeve, which invites pandering. And it works! Notice how they hardly care the GOP has failed them while denying the Dems espouse the ideals of Jesus.

ANONYMOUS

You wrote, "Easy. Religion has poisoned politics."

Sometimes it is easy to pick a 'scapegoat' to blame everything on.

One of the things that I have said many times is that it is about God, not religion, and even tho many do not believe that Jesus is Who He Is, one of the things that He did say was: "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's", how clear does seperation of Church and State need to be spoken?

I am saying this mostly to people that say they believe in the bible and believe that Jesus is Who He Is, then why don't you believe what HE SAID?

Jesus did not come down here to set up a theocracy and He most emphatically said so Himself, "My Kingdom is not of this world", I am not saying that some have not tried to thru the ages, but what I am pointing out is what Jesus, Himself, said.

People's beliefs actually should guide their life but their beliefs should be just that, their beliefs, and they should at least try to live by them and we should know what their beliefs are, to make an informed opinion about them but as far as cramming their beliefs down other's throats, that shouldn't be and actually it is against what Jesus taught, as I said 'what Jesus taught', not what some people have done down thru the ages supposedly in His Name.

Some people's beliefs are that it is their job to cram their beliefs down other's throats and it is good to know that, don't you think?

There are some that come right out and tell you and have on these blog sites and in the international news but do we really believe them or think that they are just blustering?

May I ask a question?

What makes you think that politics needed any help in the poisoning department?

It seems that politics can be self-poisoning, someone said that the best government is the least government which some people take as smaller government but do you think that maybe it was meant to mean that we shouldn't be so much into telling everyone else how to live their lives but trying to live our own, the best that we can or at least giving it a shot.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

LANCE

You wrote, "I personally do not believe that a big, invisible sky fairy controls everything. But I guess a lot of people do. Oh, well . . ."

I sure don't either, but I do know that God is Real and that God is a Trinity and that God is a Being of Pure Love.

God also gave us free will and Thank God that He has a Plan for ALL OF HUMANITY to be with Him in His Kingdom. God has had His Plan since before creation and His Plan is unfolding before our very eyes.

God did not create us to be robots or puppets on a string or to be parrots, what we do with our free will is our choice and whether anyone likes it or not we are responsible for what we do whether we accept that responibility or not.

It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof, He is not the egomaniac that some seem to think that He is.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Politicians pander to the religious right because that's the group of people you can fool all of the time.

CANDIDE

You wrote, "Devotion to religion is the first sign of serious mental illness."

Would you care to explain?

Also, what do you consider religion?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

You wrote, "Obama chose Biden as his not-so-surprising running mate, in large part(?), because he needed someone (preferably older) who could speak to voters who consider themselves patriotic, working-class, "Jesus, Mary and Joseph" Catholics." David, you are either completely clueless about this election, or you are simply unwilling to be honest in your evaluation of Obama's choice of Biden because you are an Obama supporter and not willing to call attention to what practically every journalist in the country has acknowledged: Biden was chosen because of Obama's glaring weakness in the areas of experience and foreign policy expertise.

You also say that some are enraged "when Joe Biden talks about his dear Catholic mother, Catherine Eugenia Finnegan Biden?" The political left is NEVER enraged when their candidates talk about God and faith, only when their political opponents do. Conservatives would never be outraged by someone talking about their "dear Catholic mother", for Pete's sake! Please employ a little more objectivity in your writing, especially when the subject involves the relationship between faith and politics.

iT IS TIME FOR
John McCain and Barack Obama) to take a deep breath, to "say a quiet prayer (how about the Jesus Unity Prayer?)"

NO MOT THAT... but deliver AN INVOCATION ADDRESSED TO REAL PEOPLE AND NOT TO AN IMAGINARY BEING.

NOT ONLY CHRISTIANS BUT EVERYBODY WITH OR WITHOUT ANY RELIGION WILL BE HAPPY.

Why are we enraged or enraptured, Mr. Waters? Because of people like you. 60 years ago, religion was a private matter. You will recall that the "under God" part was added in the 50s. Politically biased newspapers, like the NY Times and Wa Po, make a living by dividing us. You are a front line soldier for Obama. Sally Quinn rushed at full speed to slam Palin. It's obscene.

I want news, not propaganda.

It now has become apparent that the National Enquirer does a better job at balancing news than our Mainstream Media.

And religion among the "Mainline" churches has become so politicized as to be obscene.

You are not part of the solution. You are part of the problem.

Hey, political operatives. Look up the last name STRIDER of a new "religion" consultant who was Clinton's advisor.

Google "Strider" and see what Sheriff in 1955 was a plantation owner that ignored the Emmett Till death.

And see which party Strider supports.

It would be nice to see religion, Catholic/Protestant/Jewish etc stay OUT of politics.

Mark writes
"Except that Biden is not a true Catholic. A real Catholic could not vote to kill the unborn."

Biden has never voted to "kill the unborn" - you might check the commandments on lying.

Anonymous writes
"The democrats are in a panic. McCain is playing it cool while Palin acts as a lightning rod"

LOL
Panic?
LOL
McCain playing it cool? Did you see him on the View? Did you see Palins god-awful interview on ABC? I think we know which side is in a panic!

some other "Anonymous" writes
"Poverty is a challenge for the church and disease is for the hospitals to figure out. Government causes both, so it can't solve the problem. It is the problem. Reduce government and you reduce poverty and disease."

Well, that's the most out-of-touch comment I've read in days. The church has never been able to handle poverty, period, and if you did a little research you'd know that. Government does not increase poverty or disease, and I'd bet my thumb you have nothing to back up such an obviously insane assertion.

Timothy thinks Krauthammer is right, that Obama has "jumped the shark".
Don't bet the house on that one Timmy, until you check out how many times Krauthammer has been right in the past. Seems to me Palin/McCain has already done it themselves. Palin can't handle a simple interview. McCain got his saggy old rear end handed to him by the women on the View. McCain is toast.

Dennis - great poem, being both funny and disturbing.

McCain keeps inviting your blessed candidate to meet with him (man to man) and answer the open questions posed by average American voters (no media intrusion).

Why doesn't your man have the b@lls to accept?

"The problem is that Obama began believing in his own magical powers — the chants, the swoons, the "we are the ones" self-infatuation. Like Ronald Reagan, he was leading a movement, but one entirely driven by personality. Reagan’s revolution was rooted in concrete political ideas (supply-side economics, welfare-state deregulation, national strength) that transcended one man. For Obama’s movement, the man is the transcendence.

Which gave the Obama campaign a cult-like tinge. With every primary and every repetition of the high-flown, self-referential rhetoric, the campaign’s insubstantiality became clear. By the time it was repeated yet again on the night of the last primary (#3), the tropes were tired and flat. To top himself, Obama had to reach. Hence his triumphal declaration that history would note that night, his victory, his ascension, as "the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal."

Clang. But Obama heard only the cheers of the invited crowd. Not yet seeing how the pseudo-messianism was wearing thin, he did Berlin (#4) and finally jumped the shark. That grandiloquent proclamation of universalist puffery popped the bubble. The grandiosity had become bizarre.

From there it was but a short step to Paris Hilton. Finally, the Obama people understood. Which is why the next data point (#5) is so different. Obama’s Denver acceptance speech was deliberately pedestrian, State-of-the-Union-ish, programmatic and only briefly (that lovely coda recalling the March on Washington) lyrical.

The problem, however, was that Obama had announced the Invesco Field setting for the speech during the pre-Berlin flush of hubris. They were stuck with the Greek columns, the circus atmosphere, the rock star fireworks farewell — as opposed to the warmer, traditional, balloon-filled convention-hall hug-a-thon. The incongruity between text and context was apparent. Obama was trying to make himself ordinary — and serious — but could hardly remember how."

Religion always loses when it becomes politicized. It becomes preoccupied with the secular world, it's practitioners hoard together in a herd of outraged aggression, in order to bring to this world the word of their brand of God.
Personal responsibility for one's words and deeds are swamped into a morass of no responsibility whatever because God's will is entirely known. There remains no mystery. Everything is completely clear and no behaviour is prohibited in the name of applying God's will in this world.
Religion itself is destroyed in the process and mankind finds itself hurdling into the abyss as eager souls seek Armageddon.

God's work must be our own and I am very busy and so is Mrs. Challenger. God knows there's a will at work, so stay busy and stay at peace.

I rather think that it goes both ways - I recall a little politics creeping into Father Linnenbrink's sermons when Kennedy was running (I am told this did not occur with earlier Catholic candidates), and I recall a bit of religion creeping into the Goldwater campaign. Both of these seem to be like bread mold, they multiply and spread exceeding fast, until I now find it difficult to find a campaign speech that does not slip in a bit of religion, or a religious discussion of any depth that doesn't end up including politics. I am inclined to think that the vastly increased incidence and length of public prayer may have made us insensitive to the first inclusions of a little religion in politics, and possibly that's when it should have been shut down.

It's sad; both politics and religion were a lot cleaner when they kept themselves apart.

I wonder how many condemers of the Christians have read or even looked into what they profess to believe. No trully follower of the Bible ever looks down on anyone, and only wants to offer help to those in need. There isn't anything in the constitution that says keep church and state seperate. What it does say is that the state can't establish its own church like in England. Nor can it enterfear with any church. Why do you fear christians?? Is it because we believe in monogamy, family, being kind, not speaking evil of another, chast, not doing drugs, and alcohol? Just what is it about the belief that scares you?
I believe the Bible to be the word of God, and I do my best to follow the trues that are in it. See what you don't understand is that it doesn't matter if you believe it or not because your non-belief can't change the truth. God lives, Jesus Christ lives, and the Holy Ghost will bear witness to you of these facts if you will ask in ernest. Just remember we are all humans, and none of us walks on water, for this reason Jesus Christ died for us so that we might be saved and over come our weaknesses, all we have to do is come unto Him and propfess our sins and then do them no more. He is a loving and forgiving God, and He is full of unconditional love. Yes and He loves you non-believers just as much as He loves the believers.

I do find it interesting that so many of the right wing believers spend so much time complaining about the "cult of Obama".

If you stand far enough outside both camps and observe this cult-complaint, it's not difficult to feel a sense of astonishment.

Those on the right proceed to fill out their hate story with lots of little details they share with each other, it helps them support their hatred, gives them a valid reason they can all share together ... they are allowed to hate despite the apparent rules of their religion which proscribe that.

But why is it hatred, why is it so visceral, so brutal? We can all disagree about what tastes good and what doesn't (I won't eat asparagus, you won't eat fetta cheese) without this hatred, and even some humor. But when it comes to this religious political disagreement we enter into a civil war, why is that?

Modern republicanism is a mass movement, successfully attached to the preexisting
credulity of the religious believers. It's beginning to appear that "Obamaism" is a similar mass movement, competing for the same kind of credulity among its followers.

It's surprising sometimes to realize just how interchangeable these mass movements are.

marvin7, we don't generally disagree with the contents of your beliefs, they are actually irrelevant. All sorts of religions and political philosophies believe similar things ... that you are unable to detach the content of your belief from the act of believing it is telling, it really is.

It's the gullibility, the credulity, the never-ask-questions behavior of the believer which troubles me. How do people like Jim Jones, David Koresh, even Hitler ... how do these people gain power over us?

You can say this would never happen to you, but how can I be sure of that? It would never happen to me because I don't believe any of that stuff, they have no handle over me.
I don't trust your ability to resist these charismatic leaders when they appear on the scene, as they always do.

That is my primary disagreement with the believers, it's not what you believe, it is that you never ask questions. Faith requires that. I have serious doubts about your self-control when it exists only from an external source.

marvin7, does your god hate Galveston?

This Evangelical Christian is voting for Obama.

Annette-

Are you sure you are an evangelical? What is your opinion of black liberation theology?

There have been a thousand religions invented by man, and the followers of all these religions believed with equal intensity that their religion was the one true religion and that the others were false. All of them. There is no difference between any of them in this respect.

Today, all of us are atheists about Zeus, because it would be silly to believe in an angry jealous thunderbolt-throwing invisible god (who mostly lived up in the sky but occassionally came to earth to impregnate our women). It’s a silly fantasy left over from pre-scientific culture. But 2000 years ago, they believed their myths just as fervently as christians believe theirs today. Religions enslave people this way, all of them, equally. Just remember - the truth will set you free.

"Has politics poisoned our religion or has religion poisoned our politics?"
I think the answer to your question is both. Politics cheapens religion and religion poisons politics. To say God cares about a pipeline from Alaska is to cheapen religion. To act as if Republicans are more Godly than Democrats diminishes the idea of God. One of the great things about our Founding Fathers is that as men of the Enlightenment they were enlightened enough to see that church and state should be kept separate. Because of pandering to religion this country is turning away from the Enlightenment and the principles that this country was founded. Unlike Sarah Palin and George Bush it is doubtful if a product of the Enlightenment like Thomas Jefferson would put Creationism on equal footings as Darwinism.
It is ironic that the religious right that claims to be so patriotic are so against some of the core principles this country was built on.

My GOD! Can we not put this supersititious nonsense back in the Bottle? Can we convict the Evangelical ConMen and send them to jail for racketeering, extortion, and just simple thievery? Can we conviscate their mansions, their Planes, their Jewelry, their mistresses and repay the brainwashed dupes of this empty rethoric of hate, superstition, and ignorance? How can we tolerate our fellow citizens being bilked of their mnds and their dollars?? Where are the De-programming clinics used to "save" the Hare Krishna's? Where are the MAD ladies to protect their children from the mind-rapers? Where are Democratic Nannies when they are needed to protect the most vunerable of our society? Where are the Republican Conservatives when the very foundations of personal freedom are being eroded from within by ideological terrorists doing their perversions with the language of the Bible?? How can we save these poor people? Will they need to be institutionalized for their own protection because their minds have become so feeble that they cannot be trusted to care for their own well-being or that of their loved ones??

Politics without religion is like sex without romance. Here is a challenge. What is sex without romance called? You have to get to the heart and soul of the matter to understand power. The fools are debating poison and the wise are choosing what and how to create the best circumstance for the future. All for the children. The fools outnumber the wise, so we need illusions in politics, just as God created illusions in nature so the wise would not be made miserable by their wisdom and the fools. Romance is the magic that makes love special and lets us rise above the foolish temptations. What we get in return is a passion and unending love that binds our hearts and bonds our souls. We get healing and happiness, we get what we deserve as humans being human. We get emotional security that makes progress possible. The others get to pick their poison and die a spiritual death. I want eternity and security, I want love.

I like that. MAD. Mothers Against Dogma. I think you have something there.

I have a bottle of Scotch, so some challenges don't get put in a bottle they come out. Order emerges, even with chaos some thing never change for 42. Change is like control. People need something to believe in and control goes to the best prepared. Change is a sloagan. Love never changes, it just gets better with time. Like that old bottle of Scotch. I think I'll have a drink 42 style.

"Why do you fear christians?? Is it because we believe in monogamy, family, being kind, not speaking evil of another, chast, not doing drugs, and alcohol? Just what is it about the belief that scares you?"
Marvin7
I know lots of non- Christians who believe in monogamy, family, being kind, not speaking evil, who are chaste and do not do drugs or alcohol and I know lots of Christians who are not chaste and use drugs and drink alcohol. One of the things that I fear about Christians is that some of them think they have a monopoly on virtue. What I fear about Christians is the influence that they have in this country. What I fear about Christianity is the christian doctrine of belief. There is a willful ignorance in Christian belief summed up in God's answer to Job from the whirlwind. What I fear about Christian is the doctrine that the Bible is the inerrant word of God despite any proof to the contrary. Read the book "Misquoting Jesus". Science has proven that the Biblical story of creation is not literally true. The Darwinist take all the heat from the Creationist but biology, physics, geology, and astronomy all disprove the idea of Biblical creation but many christian refuse to accept the truth despite the commandment not to lie. Philosophically I can't even say that I find christianity attractive. The idea of original sin and fearing God are pretty ugly concepts. Christmas is cool but the best parts of Christmas were taken from the pagans.

What can you do? People are against all sorts of stuff. Beat yourself up. It's like the unions. People against and people for. You need them because there are so many cowards and idiots that need organized. You automate the plant and don't need as many idiots to run grinders, so they end up in politics grinding people down. They're busy grinding the whole city down, calling it organizing. It's all about the same thing, people pandering and pimping votes getting the fools to prostitute themselves and collecting dues from a shrinking workforce. It was steel, then airlines and now it's all about government work and those unions. They have killed more newspapers than the lack of readers and they don't know how to read the newspaper. Look in the lottery line and you see them, searching out an easy buck and quick pick. For me, I see what it is and accept it. The scum keeps rising, they skim off some votes and you have a rat race. Capital is always under fire and they keep destroying capital to keep the system floating and keep the workers in bread and butter. So here we are letting the swine look at some pearls and putting lipstick on a pig engaged in a debate over poison with Waters. The drama of it all and the fact that doesn't change is life. There are more worthless people than ever, maybe if they just get their hands on some power they will stop shooting up long enough to vote and can then go back to being junkies. People keep killing people and sometimes people do everybody a favor and kill themselves. They signed mort(death) gages(pledges) and now want to kill any capital you might have. You get to pay for them. If we destroy wealth, the logic goes, we can really create wealth in the process. We can write more bad loans and get everybody else to pay them off in the process, because we have community organizers and the community bank is soon to be closed. It's all just organized crime masquarading as a political machine. Whatever.

Brother and Sister,
We have a meeting in the eastern side of hell on Sunday. Don't forget your union dues are due.
Thanks,
The devil

There is no doubt that for both 2000 and 2004 presidential election victories GOP owe it big time to religious leaders and church groups. As an aftermath of Palin's VP nomination,there is a grwoing fear in some quarters and segments of secular and independent voters that GOP once again may succeed in turning the tide. But I believe that last eight years have taught most voters notwithstanding their religious affiliations, very real and hard lessons from Iraq war, economic and energy realted issues etc. An 11 million new voters registeration ! Wow. It is becoming clear that religious fervor may not have impaired judgement and vision of a large number of people on major 2008 election issues.

We should call the religious right's bluff and call a Constitutional Convention to choose a state religion. The sectarian infighting would destroy the fundamentalist wing permanently. Hallelujah and amen.

marvin7:
Why do you fear christians?? Is it because we believe in monogamy, family, being kind, not speaking evil of another, chast, not doing drugs, and alcohol? Just what is it about the belief that scares you?
************************************************
Joe:
Lot's of people believe in those things you write about and they are not Christians. What I fear is the narrow mindedness and hate. That's what tends to come through with the right wing-nuts that most seem to be. Even though the Bible talks love, an unbelieving hippe lives that much more that most Christains.
Palin is scary too because of the narrow mindedness. There is a death cult to the evangelicals. Read Palins pastor http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/02/palins-church-may-have-sh_n_123205.html

You may want her fingers hovering over the red atomic button but I don't.
**********************************************
marvin7:

I believe the Bible to be the word of God, and I do my best to follow the trues that are in it.
************************************************

Joe: Christian scholar Bart Ehrman says much of the Bible was changed by scribes, mis-tranlations and so on. Check it out - http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5052156

*******************************************
marvin7:
Jesus Christ died for us so that we might be saved and over come our weaknesses, all we have to do is come unto Him and propfess our sins and then do them no more.
*******************************************
Joe:
Actually that idea was not in any of the earlier teachings. Also reincarnation was part of the early teachings but was taken out as it was a better "sell" to say you only had one life.

Carl Rove

& Chavez of Venezuala

Should be Assasinated! Opppss!

Joe wrote "There is a death cult to the evangelicals."

Yes, they kill babies even before they are born.

Capncuster wrote "The sectarian infighting would destroy the fundamentalist wing permanently."

Compare that statement to God's statement that Doomsday is for the evolutionists, communists, abortionists and believers of gay marriage.

So let's wait whose words are true.

David Waters wrote "Now that Sarah Palin's nomination has turned America into one big Jerry Springer show."

It's more probable that David Waters would watch Jerry Springer show than Sarah Palin would.

Your ideas and belief, being left of center, is much closer to Jerry Springer. If Palin has her way, she would surely ban the show.

You idiots make America a Jerry Springer show by legalizing abortion, gay marriage, and love to anything even if it's a stupid kind of love.

What did Palin do to be lined up with Jerry Spriner? Praying to God for guidance? You're an idiot.

The rabble is screaming for it now. Chief BO better jump in and get them organized. Every mortgage paid off, Elect BO for Prez 08 and rabble on! We can all destroy the auto industry bros. and sisters and $60.00 for janitors and sweepers.

spiderman2, how do you avoid getting your keys all sticky? Or maybe you put some kind of membrane on your keyboard, is that it?

You must be appreciative of Palin, she is so like you.

St, that's a good point. There you go christians, that's why many of us don't want Palin as VP. She's just like this spiderman2 character.

Do you want him that close to the button?

Religions have (including Christianity) have no monopoly on virtuous behavior. While one might argue that religious belief leads some folks to act virtuously who might not have done so, one one have to be blind to miss that many "move beyond" the legalistic virtue touted by most evangelical folks to a much broader understanding of virtue and goodness. The broader conception can work in a democracy--the narrower definition, again touted by most evangelicals, belongs only in Taliban-style theocracies. We must work hard to rid ourselves of the superstition and narrow-mindedness of such a mix of religion and politics.

All this is from a long-time former evangelical.

Orf & St,

Spidey is our main source of entertainment here. Be sure to ask him to explain his outrageous pseudo-scientific explanation of Noah's flood. Something to do with falling leaves....

I have no use for Palin, but even she would not claim that "God's statement that Doomsday is for the evolutionists, communists, abortionists and believers of gay marriage" as Spidey just did.

A local church here posted the topic for a bible study course on a large public message board:

How God Views Himself

Even if there is a God, and one has faith in him, how can anyone profess to know how this being is thinking and feeling?

For God so loved the "whole" world.... John 3:16

Republicans
Democrats
Gays
Muslims
Jews
Whites
Blacks
Asians

and so can you....

Either party that wants to kill; the Dems - the unborns, and the Republicans - those who live in nations they want to attack or are currently attacking, won't get my Christian vote. If you are a Christian, how can you vote for either? What Biblical passage gives you permission to kill the unborn or preemptively attack another nation? There are none.

For the Dems: over 40 million unborns have been killed since Roe v. Wade.

For the Republicans: don't confuse "defense" for "offense" in your Biblical justification - to make up for the lives of the 3,000 killed on 9/11, we've now killed over 5,000 American soldiers and countless innocent Iraqi's. Christians live in Iran too. Should we just nuke em all?

"Love thy neighbor as thyself" isn't just part of a wish list,...it's a commandment!

I just read where the Family Values event in Washington was selling racially charged crackers with the box depicting Obama in a turban.

I just wanted to say that as a white man, I truly hope someone throws a firebomb into a fundi church and kills a few of those evil dregs.

Don't hide behind God. God is probably working on a good case of cancer for these people right now.

Fed Up! sez: """For God so loved the "whole" world.... John 3:16 Either party that wants to kill; the Dems - the unborns, and the Republicans - those who live in nations they want to attack or are currently attacking, won't get my Christian vote. If you are a Christian, how can you vote for either? What Biblical passage gives you permission to kill the unborn or preemptively attack another nation? There are none. """

Tell me how do we provide for birth and a favorable growing up environment of unwanted babies when the adoption rate for unwed moms is less that 1 percent. The republican party does not have a clue because they do not want to pay the cost yet we spend 12 billion per month on an unwanted Iraq war. Tell me why you have blocked the morning after pill when that could prevent a huge number of unwanted pregnancies. The catholic church used to teach conception as both fertilization and implantation, so why is it wrong for the use of the morning after pill. We need a common ground here and you guys don't have it.

Your vote causes more harm than help. God help your hatred.

To my American Children:

You may have heard about King David. As a teenager, I stood with him as he used his sling and slew the mighty Goliath. Even though David was a man after my own heart, he disobeyed my Word. He committed adultery with Bathsheba and caused her husband, Uriah, to be killed. As I say in my Word, I’ll take care of the adulterers. You see, many commit adultery but are never discovered. As you know, David went on to write some beautiful songs. Had he not disobeyed me, his kingdom would have done better than it did.

Eight years ago, you choose as your President a man who had no recognized past before his 40th birthday. He was a real scoundrel. Born into privilege, he was barely able to get by. In many things he failed, but he had rich friends. He became your President. You allowed certain issues to blind your judgment. You see, I allow governments to exist to maintain order, to punish the guilty, and to care for the people. The hypocrites among you taught health, wealth, and prosperity from the pulpits, but they forgot to teach you my commandments. More importantly, they forgot to teach that I am a just God and that I expect you to follow the Golden Rule with all people. Instead, you gave to those who promised to do what you wanted and you punished those who were not guilty. You turned my laws upside down in your play for power.

Now, over 80% of you realize that you are on the wrong path. However, you are so blinded by your prejudice and pride, you seem willing to choose even a worse person to rule over you as your President. Your hearts are so hardened that you accept lies as truth. The evidence is written before you. Yet, you insist in pursuing the wrong path. You may not have realized it, but I have removed my blessing from your land. You have become a stench to my nostrils. I shall let your mighty armies die in a far-off desert. I wrote Revelation through my servant John. You are not mentioned there.

I have my signs before you, you reprobate nation. There are those who do speak the truth. Their testimony is a strong witness. You must discern the truth and choose wisely. Yes, I know the result because I know your hearts. Like Ninevah, I will allow the result to be what it is. If you will change your ways and follow my commandments, I’ll give you another generation of peace and prosperity. But I am getting tired of you.

Remember my Words. If I want a nation to win a battle or even a war, I can do it with just one man. When you go to war on your own strength, be prepared to suffer great losses. I am God. I shall not be mocked. Remember, blessed are the peacemakers.

To Anonymous,

The Democrats do not condone abortion. They allow for "safe" abortions in certain circumstances. Democrats are negotiable about the situation uner which abortions may be allowed. The right seems to make it seem as if it is all or none. The worst case scenario is what has been described as "partial-birth" abortion. What if a mother during the delivery reaches a point of life or death. Do you opt to save the mom? Or do you save the baby? This is the ultimate moral question that anyone must face. In some cases, both die. Ultimately, a person in prayer with her God must make the final choice. God allows choices - both good and bad. God does forgive bad choices. The problem with abortion as an issue is that there are too many situations in the Bible where fetuses were killed in the womb, even at God's direction. Only in the 20th century was abortion even an issue. But the Devil can make many things issues so that a falling nation will follow lies. Yes, our nation is on the verge of accepting lies as truth to save the unborn, but is willing to kill hundreds of thousands of innocent human beings in an unjust war. Think about it.

Why do they pander to christian voters? Hah! Because you fools will believe anything.

You've already proven it.

To: Jo{Ktan Nationalis, U.S.A., 2013+:

Speak English please...

To: Anonymous; September 13, 2008 8:03 PM

Nice failed attempt at twisting what I said...

You said; "Your vote causes more harm than help. God help your hatred."

Whom did I say I was voting for in my post?

Whom did I say I hate?

Both parties are evil because they want to kill.

People...I addressed my post to Christians...if you're going to refute what I say, and are Christian, do so Biblically. If you're not Christian, I didn't address you did I? You can love or hate all you want. Free will and all...

Fed Up:

'Joktan' is someone usually known as JJ. Those are his initials, because his name triggers an automatic block. But he has learned to get by this. If you want to know how sick he is, go to his web site. Note that I have spelled his name BACKWARDS between the two dots. Reverse the spelling to get it to work.
www.zvezoj.us
If you want to find out about his 'religion', created in prison and probably white supremacist, go here:
http://www.insideprison.com/prison_gang_profile_CONS.asp

Kant made a distinction between moral politicians and political moralists. The latter own the field in American electoral politics. My favorite Jefferson quote: "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." We need to transpose this sentiment to the ways in which we judge our candidates. If our candidates are walking the walk, we'll judge them as they DO: THEY are the moral politicians. And then we need not have to listen to them as they try to talk the talk, most of which is, thank you, Mr. Waters, cheap pandering that really doesn't even gratify the speaker. Our pols train themselves to mouth religious platitudes with a sincere expression - narrowed eyes, pursed lips, looks of wonder-working wonder. Sheer political moralism. Talk, as they say, is cheap, and words contain no promise that they'll bear any relationship to reality. It really is time for a moratorium on religion in politics. Let's just follow the Constitution. And while we're at it, let's discontinue the cheap idolatry of "state worship," a witless blasphemy that puts "nation" before God or pretends to know that "God has picked a nation." I'm so tired of all this...

I humbly second Paul from Reston, no one yet has said it better or more eloquently. Bravo.

Did Sarah Palin really go born-again into the Assembly of God at age 12 in Sandpoint, ID out of the Catholic Church? Likely story. As for me, I believe she was born Mormon before going born-again.

Arminius,

Thanks...

For all the effort, all you have here is a trash heap of bad ideas with a little good thrown in for the sake of grace. Good graces are like good people and that does not change. The democrats have little grace and even less respect.

After I stopped getting angry that it appears that the republicans are intent on empowering a group with forcing their religion on me, I recalled the Amish church in Pennsylvania that forgave the muderer. To me, their forgiveness was so much holier than anything I could ever imagine. I am in awe of them and wish I could be like them in some small way.

To Earl C and anyone else who thinks the Republican Party wants to ban abortion and force religion down your throat - Step away from the Kool-Aid!

Even Palin said she would not support a constitutional ban on the practice of abortion. Her personal feelings are that it is never warranted, but would never want to force that on anyone. She does support, as would anyone with a modicum of understanding of the US Constitution, that Roe v Wade should be overturned and left to each State to decide how and when to allow abortions.

As to "forcing religion" on anyone - how can anyone come to this conclusion? Palin speaking of her faith engenders a fear in you liberals that she is going to force her beliefs, but Obama quoting scripture does not. Is that because you know Obama to be a pathelogical liar who will say anything to get elected? It must be so. It must be so.

Att: O B S E R V E R;

The Amish, know not to cry over 'Spilt-Milk' and that 'LiFE goes On' soldier! Hence the HURRiMcCAINS & Toranado's, we must clear-up after their Wake & go forwards, if possible!

Note: 'Forgiving' [PUBLiCALLY] an ,Unjustifiable, Mass Murdering Homocide, is a AMiSH thing. But PRIVATELY they are Angry, Resentfull, Hatefull & BOLLiXED about that! Only, like the MORMON's or Hassidics, ye do not see it! but "i" do sence it.

OBSERVER: If they {SCHAMiSH} did not forgive [publicity wise] then they will loose congregants, of which they are, by the Dozenz a year!!

Observer wrote "it appears that the republicans are intent on empowering a group with forcing their religion on me"

The founding fathers created this land without abortion and gay marriage. It is the idiots in this land who are ammending the constitution and are forcing their idiocy to us normal people.

"Mr. President can you show us your male wife?"

Yucks. I can't imagine the founding fathers have even thought that this could happen.

It won't happen coz this land will burn first. If Bill Clinton had not left the White House, Bin Ladin's plane could have successfully crashed there.

See how stupid are these people :

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/evolutionists_flock_to_darwin

Dave C, I don't like Obama's spewing his bible nonsense any more than I like Palin doing it.

You are quite simple minded aren't you? All people who disagree with your corrupted rightwing BS must be liberals.

Well the world is made up of a lot more people than that.

Palin is a dominionist. Why don't you look that up, why don't you do a little research on what those people want to do to our country?

I won't vote for Obama, but this independent will not vote for McCain because he's chosen a dominionist for his successor.

You have your nutjobs, the liberals have theirs, probably in equal numbers. The independents are going to decide this election, and it may be more about who we will not vote for, rather than who we will vote for.

Take you personal battle with the liberals and shove it into that void where your frontal supposed to be.

Geez spiderman2, don't you know satire when you see it? They are satirizing you in that article.

You are actually retarded aren't you?

From wikipedia :

"After launching on December 21, 1968, the crew (of Apollo 8) took three days to travel to the Moon. They orbited ten times over the course of 20 hours, during which the crew made a Christmas Eve television broadcast in which they read the first 10 verses from the BOOK OF GENESIS. At the time, the broadcast was the most watched TV program ever. Apollo 8's successful mission paved the way for Apollo 11. "

THIS IS A CHRISTIAN NATION BUILT BY GREAT CHRISTIANS. But this nation will burn to weed out the idiots living here now.

Almost all of the blue states will burn. Please remember that and mark it in your calendar.

Why does an article talking about how religion has created a political class of extremist whack-jobs seem to draw all of those same fools together to defend their position and convice you that they are not extreme? I guess they just can't help themselves.

Now if we could do the same on say...energy, or health care, the debate would be worth something. Watching the results of some nut case with way to much time as he pecks away at a post that is unreadable only strengthens the argument in favor of removing religion from politics. And we think the Islamists are extreme?!?! Be it a sword, the rack or a keyboard, the Inquisition lives on.

A weird set of people.

a. They believe that they came from monkeys
b. They believe that the chocolate cake can bake all by itself and continuously improving everytime it repeatingly bakes itself.
c. They find it hard to prevent pregnancy and if they become pregnant, they rip the fetus out.
d. They marry with the same sex.

The terrible thing is they want these weird beliefs to be written in our Constitution. Their objective is to make the Constitution the COMIC book of the land.

Truly, a weird set of people. But God is almighty. He created this world in a way that the weird will annihilate the weird. They will self destruct.

Once a person is convinced that chocolates can bake all by itself, you can EASILY feed all kinds of garbage in his mind without resistance.

Garbage like abortion, gay marriage becomes NORMAL in their sight. Whatever is normal becomes abnormal. The NORMAL constitution which served America for so many years becomes ABNORMAL to them so they have to CHANGE IT to become like themselves -- TO BE ABNORMAL.

really spiderman2, you shouldn't use the word "abnormal" so often.

Here, I'm going to use a republican tactic: why are you so afraid of the homos? Are worried that you are one?

asdf, don't scare off spiderman2 with that kind of talk. He's showing us what real christians are really like, without all the "hate the sin, love the sinner" dissembling.

Now these weird set of people think that we, the conservative Christians, are the Jerry Springer crowd. Don't they know that those Springer crowd are all democrats? You can ask Springer himself.

The Bible thumpers, the Jeeee sus screamers have, by definition, a personality bent to
extreems. It is not,ah, even keeeled.

As opposed to those of very strong and dedicated faith who are not so easily raised to anger and determined revenge for everyone not like them.

How usable they are. There was a time when their
strong beliefs were valuable, a steading force ecause of their goodness.

They were brought to a political whacko rage by the Falwell types, and that ilk. And they will be the missiles built and pointed by the neocons to rip this nation apart. By the zionists who've been so sucessful to date. Check Iraq, check the screaming for bombing Iran and the Georgia escapade. GOD! So to speak, it's
dangerous. And it's working.

"I believe in the United States of America as a Government of the people by the people, for the people, whose just powers are derived from the consent of the governed; a democracy in a Republic; a sovereign Nation of many sovereign States; a perfect Union, one and inseparable; established upon those principls of freedom, equality, justice, and humanity for which American patriots sacrificed their lives and fortunes.

I therefore believe it is my duty to my Country to love it; to support its Constitution; to obey its laws; to respect its flag, and to defend it againest all enemies."

Historical Notes: The American's Creed was a result of a nationwide contest for writing a National Creed, which would be a brief summary of the American political faith founded upon things fundamental in American history and tradition. The contest was the idea of Henry Sterling Chapin, Commissioner of Education of New York State. Over three thousand entries were received, and William Tyler Page was declared to be the winner. James H. Preston, the mayor of Baltimore, presented an award to Page in the House of Representatives Office Building on April 3, 1918. The Speaker of the House of Representatives and the commissioner of education of the state of New York accepted the Creed for the United States, and the proceedings relating to the award were printed in the Congressional Record of April 13, 1918.

Today the morons are trying to get the idiots writing more death to America lines. Aholes.
Has politics poisoned our religion or has religion poisoned our politics? Who gives a damn?

a. They believe that they came from monkeys
b. They believe that the chocolate cake can bake all by itself and continuously improving everytime it repeatingly bakes itself.

spiderman2

You have no clue what about what evolution is. If evolution is wrong so is genetics and DNA. Human and chimpanzees share 97 percent of the same DNA and you think it is weird that humans and chimpanzees are related? If human beings were created and are not a product of evolution why did God create useless organs on men like nipples? Evolution explains why the Bible doesn't. Your cake analogy reveals a basic misunderstanding of evolution. Evolution says nothing about things improving over time just changing to adapt to the environment. Nor does evolution deal with the origin of life just what happened to life once it got here. The evidence is overwhelming that life has changed over time. Fundamentalist Christians can deny it as much as they like and turn their head from the truth but the evidence is overwhelming that Darwinism is right. Unlike believing in the Bible belief in evolution is not based on faith but on fact.

"Why They Pander to Christian Voters"?

They pander to Christians because in America the Christian vote is large enough to decide who wins.

Rightly you shouldn't worry about Obama and McCain who are only pandering politicians.

Worry about Palin. Everybody in America has recognised her for what she is- a Christian serving as a politician.

Most Americans are pleased- but some are wringing their hands in despair.

The real issue for me is the Republican Party has changed over the last 20-30 years and is no longer the party it used to be. The 2000 McCain would have agreed with the following quotes and if he had won could have led his party back towards the real ideals of the historical GOP. I am not so sure about the 2008 McCain, especially with his pick of Gov. Palin. Ron Paul seemed to be the only true conservative running and he was treated as a joke by a lot of Republicans. It is too bad John McCain didn't win in 2000. He would have been good to have at the helm during those trying times. But his time has passed and after eight long years with President Bush at the helm, he is not the one we need to lead us now.

From a senate speech that Barry Goldwater made on September 16th, 1981.

On religious issues there can be little or no compromise. There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in "A," "B," "C" and "D." Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism."

Excerpt from an essay by Barry Goldwater, July 28th 1994 Washington Post.

When you say "radical right" today, I think of these moneymaking ventures by fellows like Pat Robertson and others who are trying to take the Republican Party away from the Republican Party, and make a religious organization out of it. If that ever happens, kiss politics goodbye.


From Wall Street Journal article December 14, 2007, by Peggy Noonan, speech writer for Ronald Reagan,

Christian conservatives have been rising, most recently, for 30 years in national politics, since they helped elect Jimmy Carter. They care about the religious faith of their leaders, and their interest is legitimate. Faith is a shaping force. Lincoln got grilled on it. But there is a sense in Iowa now that faith has been heightened as a determining factor in how to vote, that such things as executive ability, professional history, temperament, character, political philosophy and professed stands are secondary, tertiary.
But they are not, and cannot be. They are central. Things seem to be getting out of kilter, with the emphasis shifting too far.
I wonder if our old friend Ronald Reagan could rise in this party, this environment. Not a regular churchgoer, said he experienced God riding his horse at the ranch, divorced, relaxed about the faiths of his friends and aides, or
about its absence. He was a believing Christian, but he spent his adulthood in relativist Hollywood, and had a father who belonged to what some saw, and even see, as the Catholic cult. I’m just not sure he’d be pure enough to make it in
this party. I'm not sure he’d be considered good enough.

Jackwolf,

Thanks for the quotation from Goldwater - how utterly appropriate it is today, and all Americans should read it, especially the last sentence. I never agreed with Goldwater's politics, but I had, and still have, a solid admiration for him because his moral and ethical standards were of the highest. Nobody around in politics today can even come close.

You ask "Has politics poisoned our religion or has religion poisoned our politics?"

The answer is both. That is why the founders of our republic were so wise to separate church from state.

However bad those right wing bible thumping evangelicals be, however bad those liberal ape descendants are, here's what we got to keep in mind in this country. God, himself is the biggest and final authority in religion, man is subservient; in government, that's all government, man is the big dog and has all authority, god is subservient. No mixing em up now. You wanna pray, go to your church, go home get in one of your closets, close the door, pray quietly, you hear?

However bad those right wing bible thumping evangelicals be, however bad those liberal ape descendants are, here's what we got to keep in mind in this country. God, himself is the biggest and final authority in religion, man is subservient; in government, that's all government, man is the big dog and has all authority, god is subservient. No mixing em up now. You wanna pray, go to your church, go home get in one of your closets, close the door, pray quietly, you hear?

I read these tiring entries from self-righteous religionists, and I think that credulity must be genetic. As long as we have weak-minded, intellectually lazy people, who need to have things explained to them in the simplest of fairy tales, religions and their followers will always be with us. The best we can hope for is to keep them out of power, and fighting amongst themselves.

Anon wrote "Human and chimpanzees share 97 percent of the same DNA "

It was 97% at the time of Noah and it still is today. It NEVER CHANGED. Why are liberal lefts so idiotic? Christains have gone to to moon. Where have you gone, folks? From climbing trees?

God just did about $20 billion worth of work down in Texas. Only in nature is the real change taking place. We talk about change for the sake of trying to convince each other we are agents of change. We don't change the world, the world changes us. All we can do is pander about and talk for the sake of hearing ourselves. Mother Nature does not lie or care about our pleas for help. In politics we have a destructive way of going about things and people get destroyed in the process. Don't lose your illusions. The religious people would serve themselves better if they stayed hands off of politics. They always find this out too late.

Same old story. A bunch of organized people played politics and Jesus paid the price. They all felt real bad for Jesus, they just didn't get nailed to the cross. Apply your religious do goodism to business. God knows there is plenty of need for good business with the economic troubles families are facing. I guess politics seems more constructive. It isn't.

Gibson Polk "people, who need to have things explained to them in the simplest of fairy tales"

Fairy tales like chocolate cakes baking all by itself repeatingly and improving little by little thru time. What a weird set of people. The weirdest part is they want to ammend the constitution to their liking. To be like them ---weird. It's actually them who are imposing their weird doctrines to us and not the other way around as they falsely claim. Not only they are weird, they are pathologically LIARS.

A false dichotomy wrote " That is why the founders of our republic were so wise to separate church from state."

It was primarily the baptists who worked for the ammendment for the separation of church and state. They do know that the church of the DEVIL wants to meddle with politics as they do now. They now want to ammend the constitution to include abortion and gay marriage.

Vincent Spaulding wrote "And trust me on this - when it happens I'm coming to the blood harvest to reap as many christians as I can."

If you believe in survival of the fittest, this can't be possible. You've seen how Christians like Douglas McArthur and Dwight Eisenhower mowed their non-Christian evolutionist enemies, did you? It's not over yet, Doomsday is coming and it is reserved for people like you who escaped the first mowing.

International Harvester is building a new model. It won't run on oil, so the Arabs won't be harvesting our dollars out of farm subsidies paid by the idiot congress.

International Harvester is building a new model. It won't run on oil, so the Arabs won't be harvesting our dollars out of farm subsidies paid by the idiot congress.

Do you conservative christians wish to claim spiderman2 as one of your own?

A more perfect example of christian hatred I've not seen before, not since jerry falwell died (thank god)

asdf, it's not Christian hatred. It's God's law that stupidity will annihilate itself. Even without the presence of Christians, Doomsday will come becauss of the presence of stupid people. Can't you understand? Abortion and gay maariage will burn this land and you folks are making it happen.

asdf:

We liberal Christians have no use for Spidey except for his exceptional entertainment value. Try to get him to explain his 'falling leaves' theory about Noah's flood. Or brains from soil. Or his wild predictions.

Here's a Christian view about evolutionists.
The quote below is from this article : http://www.theonion.com/content/news/evolutionists_flock_to_darwin

"It's a stain on a wall, and nothing more," said the Rev. Clement McCoy, a professor at Oral Roberts University and prominent opponent of evolutionary theory. "Anything else is the delusional fantasy of a fanatical evolutionist mindset that sees only what it wishes to see in the hopes of validating a baseless, illogical belief system. I only hope these heretics see the error of their ways before our Most Powerful God smites them all in His vengeance."

We Christians know what you folks will undergo. The Most Powerful God will smite you all in His vengeance.

Arminius is the idiot Christian. He calls himself a Christian but doesn't believe the Bible. It is this type of Christianity that is dangerous - an idiot believer. He always brag of his claymore explosives.

Spidey,

The only true Christian is one who reads the Gospels, believes the word of our Lord found there, and tries to live it. A true Christian calls no one an idiot, or condemns them to hell. God knows this. It is very sad that you do not, and very sad that you care so little about your neighbors throughout the world.

A Christian walks in God's love. All I see from you is hatred.

In church today, I prayed for you. I asked God to release you from your hatred. Do you ever pray for anyone but yourself?

I'm thinkin' maybe Spidey works for the Onion and the joke's on us.

I'm starting to like censorship more. Uncensored promotes unintelligible rabbling. I'm all for free expression. We do have a civilized responsibility to at least keep it above board. Some of this stuff is just insane and there's no such thing as sanity.

Go O50 on them and they back off. Old school.

Originally FromComments (126)

By & from THE:
EC{klatarian-Nationalis Movement for Gridarian Democracy & O.ne U.niversal R.eligion of the Future:

--
Did Ye knowth that Christopher Columbus was also a “CON“?????
--

Att: A R M i N i U S, aka B-MAN,(wanna b-a-man) @ 11:07Pm.

For the Nth-tempo, Since Ye , et al , here, are an 'openly flouting (the Straights) F.A.G.arino & 'Trouble Maker' [Jealous: typical of Queers];

Did "i" not Tell Ye, many many times, To Goeth to a 'Non-Straight Blogg (not on this Straight Blogg) or a non-Straight/Queer Bar, and to stay away from Airport Bathrooms, etc.?????

Note: Thank You [for the 'HiTs' or visitors] for Advertising 'US.ZVEZOJ' [Spelled Backwards],

"The Religio of Everything, before the Science of Everything." Thanks Lost HEURiSTiC/a/o, aka "NiCOLAiTAN"s [O.U.R-enemys]

Hereunder "i" attach a WAPO link (via Claire Hoffman, From the Transidentalist Movement, et al} that can Let the World see how Jealous Ye HUMAN(s)-Un-kinds are to Us HUE{MATE-kinds!, We aka "EC{LAT-i-ON"(s) , aka JO{KTAN-NATiON or 'The People of the APOCALYPT-ARiAN Book(a SiNGULARiTY of REligio System(s) whose TiME is now Come as Promised Us: not PLURALiTY of Ye PELEG Eberu Folks. i.e., like Ye self!).

----- Please see this Wapo Link from February.2008, which Forced Me to Defend The Faith, , [A Hol{i}-Cosmic Feelings Faith] spelled backwards, “SU.zvezoj“ but JEALOUSLY deleted by religio Jealous Psycho’s, aka Split-Minded-Thinkers or lost Souls , such a Wiccans, Pagans, Thorheads, Wapo Pre-Apocalyptarians ½ humans & Non-Straights!

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2008/02/david_lynch_talks_about_the_de.html

Note: Many Many of my posts, 'UNDER GOD' was deliberately removed by 'NiCOLAiTAN(s)' like Arminus & comprimising "Blog-Gang" aka B-Man et al.

Note again: We represent 5.5 Million EX-'CONS' whom Vote (thier friends & Family too!)! Pleaza see this Precious Philanthropy, not church based org, that helped or helps Us 'CONS'.

http://www.vera.org/ [An Org that's down to Earth & reaches the Grass-Roots of America!].

Note: Better give Them [VERA] that "Faith Based Initiative Moneys {$2 Billion} , than Churchs!

--- REMEMBER:

APOPCALYPT-ARiAN-FAiTH {A SiNGULARiTY of All Faiths, not PLURALiTY of them!} is based-on-Worshiping TRUTH (opposite of MYTH-illogical) , not man-made System(s) competing for a name for god(s) instead of “O.U.R.“ G-D [thee O.ne U.niversal R.eligion , aka B.ook O.f T.RANS{FiNiTY] .O.U.R.-B.O.T.; A Belief, like a Religion, but better.

Hark: Hear Ye, Hear Ye, O’ Sweet Sweet U.S. of A., “IT” (G-D , or O.U.R., is Neither a HE/Him nor a She/Her) aka The HOL{i}-NO-MEN, consents, but only for a TiME {via TEMPERATURE awareness, not clock nor space time thinking}.

Please, Do not Delete this or any of WAPO's own Posted pages! Please, stop Cannibalizing O.U.R.-B.O.T.” and

Please , “Synergeticless-SPLiT-Minded-Thinkers”, do not be afraid, nor in denial to self or others!

SH{A-M-E!

Remember the IYA-2009! We Worship TRUTH (opposite of MYTH). How about YE (you & World)?

--- TRiViA:

Did Ye Knowth, and pleaza, do not be in denial to selves & others (King-Queer-Arminius the Pagan/Wiccan Blogger) THAT,

From the 'FRONT' of the Tenach/Bible, to the 'BACK' of the Judeo-Ju & Judeo-Christ Bible/Tenach, That all was conceived via Mass Murder's {Moses, Saul/Paul...), escaped-Convicts, PRiSONER(s) {John the REVELATOR, John the Baptist , Joseph, "CONS," etc.. ???

Note: Even “Christopher COLUMBUS, was a Prisoner , for 3-months, in Rome/Spain, 1494.

Soo, Pleaza, do not attempt to Stop the AMERiCAN JO{KTAN {not Pelegian} Prophecy; aka the "EC{Lat-arian", aka APOCALYPTARiAN, aka "HUE{MATE" Movement 2013+.

---

Please Help-America, Celebrate the “International Year [of] Astronomy, 2009. G A L I L E O’ S, 400th Year! [Note: The Pope destroyed his Life!], hence Why He Blinded himself & sadly died!]
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IYA2009

Pleasze vistit 'SU.ZVEZOJ' {spelled backwards} or 'GRO.8002YMONORTSA' {spelled backwards}.

PS: "Get behind Thee SATAN!" Get a Life ARMiNiUS or B-MAN, or ...!

-

2-Question, QUEER-NATiONAL Arminius et al:"

1)
"Vote: 'Sacred' Marriage is only between a Real Mr. & a real Ms., not Mr. & Mr. or Ms. & Ms.!"

YEA? or NAY? YES? or NO? DA or NYET? Pleaza, why have ye evaded this ‘Sacred-marriage’ answer Openly Queer?? Why ‘Split Minded Psychosis” QUEER! Why?

2)
Since this is an Religio/politico Academic blogg, What Hath Ye 'novely' contributed or Presented (Authenticy) for Neural Transmission of the Nth kind??? ZERO! Your a loozer, so becoma boozer!

Note: ye are a 'sick-Puppy" never "i" or "Us"!

Do Not Attack nor flout 'O.U.R. "Holy Cosmic Feelers Faith" or the Hol{i}-EC{lat + "i' = LiFE/Photons awareness , or "IT" will getch ya!

A Consciousness whose TiME is now Cometh!

Thank-O-Shame JEALOUSY!

First Posted: September 14, 2008 7:50 AM

1st posted at Comments (117)

From: Joktan Nationalis, U.S.A., 2013+:

---

Mr. Waters, et al: YE saith;

"What I'm not sure about is this: Has politics poisoned our religion or has religion poisoned our politics?"

--

No No, not Quite!

The Evilgelicals ain't gettin away with Uruspation or 'Attempt' (Conspiracy) to 'Hi-Jack' "O.U.R." Secular-Government, or their attempted 'Coup D' Atat' of our Gov., is preserved ,forever, to put them [Evangelicals, Catholics, Jews, Islams, Hindus, Buddhists.., to:

have them Stay SEPERATE & away from their (not O.U.R.) CHURCH,s Synogogue, Mosque, Temple , Organized places of Pre-Apocalyptic Worship etc.. from Us, not Them!

And We must Remove Their I.R.S. 501c3, Tax-Exempt Status; a Privilge, not a Right! Once & For All!

Hence We ; SECUALRiSTS will kill them Satans , in Secular Clothing (mostly!)! We will Super-SECULARiZe Them, aka UN-Bollix them, and remove their JESUS SuperStitiousStitousness, once & for-all,

in SWEET SWEET America, of which they [Evilgelicals, et al] are wanting to SOUR, SOUR U.S.A! Not POiSON!

Note: interestingly, PLURALiTY of "REligion [an Apocalyptic Civilization Enemy] , not SiNGULARiTY, is and can be a Poison of the People! Maybe Karl Mark was some-what right, there & here!

Note: Under EC{LAT-ion Government, They [i.e., Rick Warrens, mike Huckabees, Chuck Colsons..., would've gone to FEDERAL PRiSON for at least 20 Years (w/out Parole & zero Probation)!

Note: The "Charges" for which them NiCOLAiTAN(s); [They know what "i"m saying] will go to Jail, are based on the RELiGiO MAFiOSO Act. Same as the R.I.C.O Act of Today for Conspiring to take over, via Bible, OUR SECULAR Government against our Fore-Fathers/Mothers wishes & 'iNTENT" . No Church in OUR Gov!!! Yet they infiltrated, worse than Communists! What a SCARe. Wake-Up USA!!!!

Time to Disposes SATAN's [Churches] Leadership(s), Preistly Pedphiles.. incarnate, in America & Elswhere, in any part of OUR Federal Government/Establishment [not Theirs!]..

Originaly Posted September 13, 2008 10:13 PM
, but Jealously Deleted.

We, The JO{KTANian Nationals of AMERiC, hereunder, cast "O.U.R. Vote on some Issues.

Wow! What a sobering & Apocalyptic "insight & Pattern Recognition Abilitys" that Mr. David Waters (moderator) wrote about here. Nice nice very nice.

--- Therefore:

We, "The JO{KTAn-People of America", like 'the People of the Book(s)" hereunder cast O.U.R. vote, according to "Gridarian-Democracy" & "Transfinite-Civilization's" Fiats, THAT:

WE CAST OUR VOTE ON:

0)
Seperation of CHURCH & STATE = YES! YES! YES!

1)
Abortion = YES! ,Emergency, Psychological etc..

2)
WAR = NO!, But, unless, Justifiable only!
Abortion = YES!

2a)
Role of Women = YES!, It is APOCALYPTARiAN Prophecy, not PRE-APOCALYPTARiAN Thinking!

3)
Homosexuality/Non-Straight/Gay Marriages = NO!

4)
Poverty = NO!

5)
Creationism & Intelligent Design religious Science = NO! NO! NO!

6)
Innate 'G-D' instead of 'Man-made 'god' System = YES!

7)
O.ne U.niversal R.eligion, aka Apocalyptical SiNGULARiTY [A.S. is] of all Pre-Apocalyptic Beliefs/Religion/Faiths in 1-BOOK = YES! YES!

---

Vote: NO NO! to any PLURALiTY of Pre-Apocalyptic Religions, as if 'Tolerence' is needed, instead og getting rid of 'intollerence' forever, on Holy Cosmic, NEBULA Built, Space-Ship Earth(s), not Pre-Apocalyptic 'My-god' said so Syndrome via Man Made books, instead of innate Book [Universe!]never Church!

Vote: ABolish all Monarchy & Theocracy on Holy, Space-Ship Ma/Pa Earth(s) of Many; aka S.S. GAiA, aka S.S. GEOiD, aka S.S. TELLUSng something. Not by Man Made Bibles, except for Bread, Love, Shelter & Clothes (Keeping busy).

Vote: For "The-Jo{ktan-People" of the "RELiGiON OF EVERY THiNG in America, before the SciENCE Of EVERYTHiNG", aka Apocalyptarians Nation, aka EC{latarians Nationalis, aka Us HUE{Mate's kinds, not Humans unkinds, anymore! Ya Ya!

---

Behold: “The RELiGiON of Everything, before the Science of Everything is now Upon-Us, in U.S.!” a Genuine ‘AMERiC-MADE” , but TRUE (opposite of MYTH) Religion SYSTEM, as Promised & Prophesied, Us EC{LATARiANs, aka JO{KTAN-ian Nationals of America [not PELEGs], in all ye 3-Major “iNFiXUS-BOOKS” [Tenach/Bibles, Quran/Korans, Gita/Tripitakas].
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WELCOME! Please Help-Us Celebrate the “International Year [of] Astronomy, 2009. Gallaleo’s 400th Year! Thank You!
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IYA2009
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By: http:////.......({..J..}).......({..O..}).......({..Z..}).......({...E.}).......({..V..}).......({..Z..})........dot...... US

Originally Posted September 13, 2008 11:50 AM , but Jealously Deleted for Plagiarism ! SH{AME! WAPO et al!

Does Politics corrupt Religion, or does Religion corrupt Politics?

Chicken or egg question. Ad long as Christianity was illegal in the Roman Empire, the necessary separation of Church and State for Christianity to prosper existed. When Constantine legalized Christianity, and accepted it, the temptation that Politics and religion always have to become allies began to operate, and time after time a strong Emperor or a strong Pope would try to leverage control of his opposite for the common good. After watching these unsanctified alliances for a millennium and a half, Europe should have been wary of the Protestant Revolution, but since all that Luther really said that any one really cared about was, "The Pope can't Boss German Princelings around anymore". That proving to be a popular political platform, Europe voted it in over and over, so that for the next half millennium every princeling did as he thought best, "Because there was no King in Israel) So now any self proclaimed voice of God with another distortion of Christianity can always try to get Caesar's chop on his authority. He needs civil backing, because Luther destroyed any possible chance of there being a Religious authority to appeal to. (We Catholics, of course, have the Pope. The rest of you have elections, and the side that loses then have schisms.)

Right now the Radical religious Right thinks it can buy religious authority for political capital. So they prostitute their congregations in the hopes that there guy will get in and let them use his authority. Meanwhile politicians who share few, if any, of the values those RRR types, prostitute their campaigns for the putative votes they might obtain, fully intending to give lip service to the fundamentalist causes they let them selves be pictured supporting.

It might have remained something of a conservative - republican relationship, except that the RRR's make claims on other Churches, denominations and sects, that require Democrats to point out that they aren't necessarily irreligious, let alone inimical to religion. Then they appear to also be pandering to the RRR theocrats.

In one sense you can't blame politicians for thinking that at least some Religious communities are particularly easy to deceive. Adventists, Jehovh's Witnesses, and other millenialist sects continue to thrive on preaching that they predicted the world would end, some time in the past, (for the Adventists that some time is now one hundred seventy-four years in the past.) and they so obviously knew what they wer preaching about. If you can convince someone to be an Adventist, and even more convince some of them to be Branch Davidians, it ought to be easy to convince them to be Republicans into the bargain.

From: Get Back , Get back From wence ye once belonged, Jo Jo!:

V O T E:

Answer Pleazea!

MARRiAGE is sacred , between a real Mavorite (Mr) & a Real Sporade (Ms), never between Mr & Mr..!

Yes or No?????????????????????????????? Yea or Nay????????????? DA or Nyet????

When one goes to school and he gets a grade of 65, it's not called hate. It's called truth. It means you are an idiot and you need to study more. Arminius, there is such thing as right and wrong. Right answers and wrong answers. False religions and right religion. Have you finished high school? Everything seems right to you. If you're teacher gives you 65, it's actually good for you coz he's being honest. Do you understand that, idiot?

Calling you didot is really good for you, do you understand that? God calls fools as fools.

ceflynline@msn.com, your church preaches agains abortion and gay marriage. Now make a survey who are the people who favors abortion and gay maariage. It's the same people who attend your church. That is how to detect if it's a false religion or not. What they preach is different from what their flock practice.

hey spidey, I'm not gay marriaging and I'm not performing abortions. But I'm still going to burn in this hell of yours eh?

I try to imagine the earth populated by your clones. Now that's hell. You are truly sick, truly diseased.

You aren't descended from Monkeys, you have yet to evolve to their level.

SPIDERMAN2:

It was 97% at the time of Noah and it still is today.

Your statement reveals your ignorance about evolution. How long ago do you think Noah lived? Evolution does not say that people have evolved since the time of Noah nor does it say that the rate of evolution is constant or continual. You really do not have a clue about evolution. Not only do you not understand evolution you do not understand geology or geological time. You seem to think that the time of Noah was a long time ago. To a biblical literalist the time of Noah may seem like a long time ago but to a geologist the time of Noah was merely a blink of an eye ago. You constantly misunderstand what evolution says. If Noah existed and actually built a boat Noah was a homo sapien and not even one of the earliest ones. Humans existed for a long time before culture advanced enough that people could build boats. If there ever was a Noah he was clearly a homo sapien and one would not expect there to be any difference in the percentage of homo sapien DNA from one homo sapien to another. Human evolved over periods of millions of years not thousands.
You call liberals idiotic but you are the one who you is obviously uneducated. It would be one thing if you understood what evolution was and did not believe it but you do not even understand the most basic concepts of evolution or geology.

Spidey we meet once again. I shall repeat my previous statement - u are a douche among douches. You take hate and idiocy to a new level. According to your fairy tale shouldnt we all burn in hell if we're wrong anyways? so why not let us all burn in hell, why spread your hate, its not like youre trying to "save us", ur trying to condem us for our actions right? Isnt there some quote in some old book that says something about not judging.... hmm i forget what book - maybe it was a Dr. seuss book or something. As for evolution there is a good amount of evidence to support the theory, where as there is no evidence save for a book that is taken as "truth" because it was written a long time ago. You want to know the difference between christianity and scientology - christianity is just older...

oh and by the way... this nation wasnt indeed founded on christian values, most of our fore fathers who wrote the constitution were Deists, its a fact. They believed in a god, or something bigger than themselves (not a personal god), they were NOT christians.

I understand the artilcle deals with different versions of Christianity imprisoned by political demogogues. The article has missed one important version of original Eastern Christians who altogether became Muslims after the advent of Islam. In America also tens of thousands of such Christians have become Muslim claiming they are true followers of Jesus. In this regard, I am posting an article I saw on the internet which I hope will be helpful in unearthing the truth.

"This is an attempt to invite you to the TRUTH which I am convinced of and which was established from time to time, by different Hindu Vedas, Bible, other Glorious Scriptures and finally by Qur'an. As a true and
intellectually convinced believer of this TRUTH, I hope this communication will help me to discharge my responsibility in conveying
the Message.

Yes… My dear… I am inviting you to ISLAM, the Ultimate and Absolute Truth. It is based on absolute monotheism (the doctrine or belief that
there is only one God) which requires cooresponding action in terms of undivided submission or the total surrender of one's self usig the freedom given to him to the will of God. This is the meaning of Islam itself. Your reasoning of the truth will find its pathways into Islam. Islam as a comprehensive system and way of life is beautiful like universe. It is a fusion of mercy, power and force. It is the
harmonious synthesis of physique and psyche, soul and soil. It is a beautiful blend of body and mind, movement and meditation. It is an
assimilation of Love and Law. Heaven and earth assemble there and make a melodious symphony of human life out of it. It is a sweet sonata of
submission of one's will to the will of God by serving and sacrificing for the wellbeing of humanity. It is devotion to God by dedicating
ourselves for the welfare of the world. Islam is all about life and for the life. It is both struggle and service and success thereof. It
frees us from all kinds of servitude and narrowness and elevates us to the ever widening breadth of the universe. Quranically, in nutshell, it is natural face of human being and it is human face of the universe. We human being can align with the mainstream of the
universe only through Islam which means integral and undivided surrendering of our will to the will of God using the freedom given to us in a thoughtful way.

Quran, the final testament revealed to Mohammad for whole of humanity to guide how to operate human life on the earth, declares that the
cardinal belief of all the Prophets, including MUHAMMED(PBUH), JESUS(PBUH), MOSHE(PBUH), ABRAHAM… who came in the different parts of
the world at different times was nothing other than this. This Prophet-hood is finalized by Muhammed (PBUH). Further more, Quran unequivocally says (3: 81-82) each and every prophet who came to guide people before Mohammad (PBUH) had foretold the coming of a final
prophet with a final testament.

For example, you may refer to the following verses for further clarification in this regard.

Just see 2+2 = 4 like example below from Bible for your ready reference.

Genesis 21: 21 says ishmael grew in the deseart of Paran where God had created a well/stream under his feet for Hagar ( Genesis 21: 17-19).
(Paran is Mecca where we see ZamZam Well. History of Arabs, the descendants of Ishamel, also confirms it).

Habakuk 3:3 says " God comes from Tema, And the Holy One from Mount Paran" (Considering Paran is Mecca, who is the holyone from Mount
Paran? Please bear in mind Prophet Mohammad got revealation from a mountain ( Jabal Al-Nur) in Mecca.

In Deutronomy 33:2 "The Lord came from Sinai, And dawned on them from Seir; He shone forth from Mount Paran, And He came from the midst of
ten thousand holy ones (when Prophet Mohammad had conquered Mecca, there were ten thousand holy warriors with him); At His right hand
there was flashing lightning for them" .

Isaia 21: 13-16 speaks on an Oracle about Arabia. This prediction is historically about migration of propphet Mohammad and Followers to
Medina and a War ( war of Al-Bader) that was waged by Meccan pagans against Prophet and followers after ayear in which Prophet and
Followers in Medina became victorious.

For further references in Bible you may go through the following verses also among others.
Bible (Song of Solomon chapter 5 : 16; Deut. 18: 18-20; 32:21; 33:2; Psalms 84:4-6; Isaiah 21: 13-16; 28: 10-13; 29:12; 41:29; 42: 1-17;
HAGGAI:2:6-9; HABAKUK 3:1-7;Matthew 21:42-44; John 14:16; 15:26;16:5-14).

(Bhavishya Puran, Prati Sarg Parv III: 3, 3, Verse 5-27;

Rig Veda: 1) VII: 96, Mantras 13 through 16, and (2) I: 53, Mantras 6 and 9;Sama Veda III: 10, Mantra 1). Atharva Veda: (1) XX: 21, Mantras 6, 7, and 9, (2) XX: 137, Mantras 7 through 9, and (3) X: 2, Mantras 26, 27, 29, 30, and 32;

You may also refer a book written by Pundit Veda Prakash Upadhyay (former Professor of Sanskrit in Jaipur Univesrtiry) proving Kalki is
Mohammad.

Once you are intellectually convinced of Mohammad's prophethood, it will be very easy to locate deviations and distortions that took place
in the history of religions and manipulations and interpolation that took place in the revealed scriptures.

I humbly and earnestly invite you again to this TRUTH which requires belief with knowledge and knowledge with a standing proof. Prophet
Mohammad's life (the final prophet) can be read in the complete light of the history. It is not a myth. Quran as a PROOF, CONSTITUTION
and an Operating CATALOGUE is in front of the universe in the original form without any alterations or changes. Islam will save me,
you and all both in this mundane and the Here-afterlife.

As I stated initially, my role as a conveyor of the truth to you has been fulfilled by this e-mail communication. Now its your turn to
hear, listen and think over this subject very seriously. If you have any question or query, please don't hesitate to write to
harmoniousway@gmail.com "

Fed Up!: """To: Anonymous; September 13, 2008 8:03 PM
Nice failed attempt at twisting what I said...
You said; "Your vote causes more harm than help. God help your hatred."
Whom did I say I was voting for in my post?"""

You said you would never vote for anyone pro-choice. Take a look at whom you have elected and our economy. Because you do not care in your vote other than the abortion issue, the people you have elected have really destroyed this economy. Dow futures down 330 this morning. Be more careful next time as McCain wants more of the same.

All religions are Fairy Tales

"What I'm not sure about is this: Has politics poisoned our religion or has religion poisoned our politics?"

Simple, both. They don't mix, which is why they should remain separate.

By the Thunderous Loins of Mighty Thor, I can only vote my conscience and throw my support to the first candidate to pander to Odin! My Skydaddy can beat up your Skydaddy!

Religion and politics are using and abusing each other. Religion wants to use politics to expand it's religious beliefs and politicians want to use religious voters to expand their political base. Religious are finding that they can not expand their numbers by simply relying on their religious beliefs to get people into their churches. They have to "bring God" to Americans through the political system. Through public schools, public institutions,judicial officers, and public officials. They don't like the path that Christ chose by going to the common people. Instead believe that the best way to spread their religion is not through the church, but though the government.

Nuh-uh! Your dumber!

And you are defenitely the most dumb because you secretly believe darwin is God! Fools! Dumb idiot fools! I'm laughing at you when I'm in heaven wit hte real God who loves me more than he loves you all.

"Calling you didot is really good for you, do you understand that? God calls fools as fools."

By making sure they can't spell 'idiot' when they try to apply the term to others? :)

What is interesting about Spidey's latest spewing of hatred is that, in the words of the Gospels, he has just condemned himself to hell for his hatred and lack of compassion for mankind. A pity Spidey doesn't read the Gospels - if he went to Matthew 25:30, and started there, he might learn something. But he won't, and that is pitiful.

Arminius also eats his own poop. God is watching you!

A predictable reply by Spidey - does not try to reply to what I said, but instead flings an infantile insult fit for a primary school sandbox.

I know that God is with me. I know that He has always been with me, and always will be.

I have felt the power of the Holy Spirit. That memory still makes me tremble.

I know what our risen Lord taught - love and compassion. The two Great Commandments.

Does Spidey? Is he really Christian?

ANONYMOUS

You wrote, "The idea of original sin and fearing God are pretty ugly concepts".

My take on original sin is that we have "free will" and we do not always do what is best with our "free will" and I believe that history bears evidence of this, whether or not we think that we have "free will" or that man has a "fallen nature".

Actually, one of the things that is written in the bible that God said to at least one person is that, that person could rise above his nature.

This speaks of "free will" and that it is up to us how we use it.

As far as 'fearing God', it is called "Fear of the Lord" and it means reverence and awe of God, it does not mean being afraid of God, even tho there are some that do try to teach people to be afraid of God.

After I met God, I wondered about that phrase and I actually looked it up in a regular dictionary and it said, "Reverence and Awe of God", and I could understand why it said that, those that teach people to be afraid of God know nothing about God except for maybe His Name but that is about all that they know about God.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Hi, Thomas Baum,

Always good to hear your words, friend.

You said, and said rightly, "As far as 'fearing God', it is called "Fear of the Lord" and it means reverence and awe of God, it does not mean being afraid of God, even tho there are some that do try to teach people to be afraid of God."

Exactly! Yes! Please read my reply below to an unfortunate hater named Spidey (aka spiderman2).

God bless,

Arminius

Good questions...

http://apalinfan.blogspot.com

Wow, you guys get all that, and all Spidey gets is potty issues. :)

ARMINIUS

Hi, good to hear from you, hope you're doing fine.

One of the things that it says in the bible about Mary is that: "She pondered these things in her heart".

I also ponder different things that have happened to me and it sounds to me that you also ponder some of the things that have happened to you.

We are all in this together and how God works in other people's life is God's Business, not mine, He is God, I am just a messenger and the way that I look at it is, how God works in my life is God's Business and my business.

Sometimes from reading some of the comments on the different postings of this web-site, it seems that some people seem to think of God as the big dictation machine in the sky, does it ever seem that way to you?

When God the Father came into my heart, He didn't say a word, He didn't have to.

I am really thankful that God has a Plan and has had His Plan since before creation and that His Plan is unfolding before our very eyes and another thing about God's Plan that I am thankful for is that I don't have to know all of the details.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas Baum,

You move me. God came to me, too, the memory can make me weep. As with you, He said nothing, but I could feel His presence. I still feel it.

I eventually understood His unspoken message: He put His hand on my shoulder, and communicated this to me: "Hey, look!" And I looked. And I saw love and beauty.

I am still trying to figure all this out. Faith is not a destination, it is a lifelong journey.

God bless,

Arminius

JOHNCIVILLO

You wrote, "Yes… My dear… I am inviting you to ISLAM, the Ultimate and Absolute Truth."

If I read this statement correctly, you are saying that islam is truth.

Jesus said, "I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life.",what He said is either true or it is a lie.

If it is True, then the Truth is a Person, not a religion.

If it is a lie, then why would the god of islam chose a liar to be one of his prophets?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Well, I think that's the problem, though, sometimes, Thomas, and Arminius... People who have any kind of numinous experience tend to be taught it's the God of the Bible and whatever authority they choose to associate... so *they* turn that sort of experience into a de facto dictation machine.

Cause people and their books presume to speak for that sort of thing, ...the commonly-cited experiences quite often actually say nothing of the sort, but they figure it meant to validate Biblical (Or Kuranic or Mormon) authority, anyway....

By the way, as I have said before it is about God not about religion.

Also, as I have said before, God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.

I have also said: It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

God is a Trinity and God is a Being of Pure Love and God is not the egomaniac that some seem to think that He is and that some want Him to be.

It also is not about setting up a theocracy on earth, at least "Christianity" isn't, even tho some thru the ages seemed to think that it was/is.

If anyone has happened to notice, it was the "religious" of Jesus's day that as Jesus said, "Had eyes but could not see and ears but could not hear", is it any different now?

The "religious" are not just those that are trying to cram their "beliefs" down other people's throats but also some of those that take such an offense at the word "belief", so to put it into words that shouldn't offend them, trying to shove their "unbeliefs" down other people's throats.

Seems to me no matter what anyone believes or does not believe, we are called to live our own life, not other people's life.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Hi, Paganplace,

First - yes, I see this through Christian eyes. I see the love and beauty.

Second - as Paul said, we see through a glass darkly. That's ALL of us.

Third - I am on record here as believing that there are many paths up that mountain. That includes your path.

Fourth - God is no damn fool dictation machine. Ever. No how. No way. No Palin. Some try to turn Him into that - and I know, from what you have said, how you have suffered from that. I wish I could do something.

Well, didn't I just see a post from you today, using a book of words to say Islam was a lie for making similar assertions, Thomas?

That's what I meant. People may have spiritual experiences, (Of course, I've had plenty of my own, actually some of the stuff people describe as life-changing (particularly in experiences of the natural world) is part of.. well, how I'd describe seeing the world most of the time.)

But *people* write the books, and *people* choose their books, and *people* choose how they interpret them.

Or someone chooses for them, to much the same effect.

Somebody is using my name again. My last post was this :

"ceflynline@msn.com, your church preaches agains abortion and gay marriage. Now make a survey who are the people who favors abortion and gay maariage. It's the same people who attend your church. That is how to detect if it's a false religion or not. What they preach is different from what their flock practice. "

Any post using my name after that was not mine.

You see what idiots do just to win a discussion. They invent anything like "PROVING" that humans came from monkeys by showing you A BONE. HOW STUPID.

Oh, and I wasn't trying to be too argumentative, actually, Arminius, actually: my focus isn't up to it today, with parts of the ol' chassis talking loudly at me, shall we say. :) Sorry if it came off like that, just trying to point something out.

Spidey continues to lie. Sad. And always, reverting to his mindless statements, never replying to the topic or to a question directly asked.

Same old Spidey. Stupid.

And now Spidey should not come back as anonymous, accusing me of saying nasty things about him. All I am doing is returning to him what he says about me - stupid.

Paganplace,

No problem, friend.

WHERE ALSO ARE AMERICA'S RELIGIOUS LEADERS ???

SENATOR OBAMA,PLEASE LET AMERICA KNOW YOUR FEELINGS ON THIS US JUDICIAL INJUSTICE ???

***LETS ALL HOPE OUR INTERNATIONAL MEDIA FRIENDS ALSO SHOW AN INTEREST IN REPORTING ON THIS AMERICAN HORROR FACING THESE (TENS OF THOUSANDS) FORGOTTEN AND TRAPPED POORER AMERICANS, AND HOW THIS POSSIBLE FUTURE PRESIDENTIAL CONTENDER HANDLES THIS VERY SERIOUS ISSUE FACING AMERICA’S LATINO AND BLACK AMERICAN COMMUNITIES ????

**WITH 80% OF THE BLACK AMERICAN VOTERS SAYING THEY SUPPORT SENATOR OBAMA IN THIS PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, IT IS ONLY FAIR FOR EVERYONE TO KNOW PRIOR BEING ELECTED OUR NEXT PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HOW THIS DEMOCRATIC SENATOR TRULY FEELS ABOUT THIS AMERICAN JUDICIAL HORROR CONTINUING TO INFLICT GRAVE HARM ON THE BLACK AMERICAN FAMILIES AND THEIR COMMUNITIES NATIONWIDE ??????

*** WHEN GOD’S FACE BECAME VERY RED ***
THE US SUPREME COURT GAVE ENEMY COMBATANTS FEDERAL APPEAL HC RIGHTS LAWYERS AND PROPER ACCESS TO US FEDERAL COURTS,AND POORER AMERICANS (MANY EVEN ON DEATH ROW) ARE DENIED PROPER FEDERAL APPEAL LEGAL REPRESENTATION TO OUR US FEDERAL COURTS OF APPEAL, AND ROTTING IN AMERICAN PRISONS NATIONWIDE ?????????

**** INNOCENT AMERICANS ARE DENIED REAL HC RIGHTS WITH THEIR FEDERAL APPEALS !
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE $LOWLY FINDING OUT HOW EA$Y IT I$ FOR MIDDLE CLA$$ AND WORKING POOR AMERICAN$ TO FALL VICTIM TO OUR U$ MONETARY JUDICIAL $Y$TEM.

****WHEN THE US INNOCENT WERE ABANDONED BY THE GUILTY ****
The prison experts have reported that there are 100,000 innocent Americans currently being falsely imprisoned along with the 2,300,000 total US prison population nationwide.
Since our US Congress has never afforded poor prison inmates federal appeal legal counsel for their federal retrials,they have effectively closed the doors on these tens of thousands of innocent citizens ever being capable of possibly exonerating themselves to regain their freedom through being granted new retrials.

This same exact unjust situation was happening in our Southern States when poor and mostly uneducated Black Americans were being falsely imprisoned for endless decades without the needed educational skills to properly submit their own written federal trial appeals.

This devious and deceptive judicial process of making our poor and innocent prison inmates formulate and write their own federal appeal legal cases for possible retrials on their state criminal cases,is still in effect today even though everyone in our US judicial system knows that without proper legal representation, these tens of thousands of innocent prison inmates will be denied their rightful opportunities of ever being granted new trials from our federal appeal judges!!

Sadly, the true US *legal* Federal Appeal situation that occurs when any of our uneducated American prison inmates are forced to attempt to submit their own written Federal Appeals (from our prisons nationwide) without the assistance of proper legal counsel, is that they all are in reality being denied their legitimate rights for Habeas Corpus and will win any future Supreme Court Case concerning this injustice!

For our judicial system and our US Congressional Leaders Of The Free World to continue to pretend that this is a real and fair opportunity for our American Middle Class and Working Poor Citizens, only delays the very needed future change of Federal Financing of all these Federal appeals becoming a normal formula of Our American judicial system.

It was not so very long ago that Public Defenders became a Reality in this country.Prior that legal reality taking place, their were also some who thought giving anyone charged with a crime a free lawyer was a waste of taxpayers $$.

This FACADE and HORROR of our Federal Appeal proce$$ is not worthy of the Greatest Country In The World!

***GREAT SOCIETIES THAT DO NOT PROTECT EVEN THEIR INNOCENT, BECOME THE GUILTY!

A MUST READ ABOUT AMERICAN INJUSTICE:
1) YAHOO AND 2) GOOGLE
MANNY GONZALES THE KID THAT EVERYONE FORGOT IN THE CA PRISON SYSTEM.
** A JUDICIAL RIDE OF ONES LIFE !

lawyersforpooramericans@yahoo.com (424-247-2013)

I've said it before and I'll say it again. All these bank foreclosures are a result of their greed. There was a time when homeowners where DRIVEN OUT of their homes because OF VERY STEEP INTEREST PAYMENTS. The banks could have intervened for the sake of mercy and could have restructured the payments that will allow the homeowners to stay. BUT NO, they didn't. For them it's the LAW OF THE JUNGLE. Survival of the fittest. Now that law has turned agains them coz they have killed the goose which lays the golden eggs. They have shut off OR SHOO OFF the people who feeds them in DROVE.

People don't realize that in a true survival of the fittest world, NOBODY LIVES. All these banks who has exposures to mortgages will surely die even how big it is and it is now happening. BRING BACK THE MORTGAGE PAYMENTS BACK TO NORMAL AND ALL WILL BE WELL AGAIN. GIVE BACK THE FORECLOSED HOUSES TO ITS PREVIOUS OWNERS and let them pay their mortgages at previous low rates. The government can INITIATE this because they now own FANNY MAE AND FREDDIE MAC. The rest of the banks could follow suit.

This crisis won't end unless the source of the problem is solved and the problem is the foreclosed houses. Give it back together with a SANE (not insane) interest rates.

You make a survey and see who runs these banks who are failing. I think they are democrats coz they believe in evolution and its mantra SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST.

Abort the child if not fit to survive. Foreclose the house if the owners are not fit to pay high interest rates. The list goes on.

These people have NO VALUES.

Well, as we can see why they pander to Evangelicals... They'll vote for you and attack your enemies, even after being distracted by hating gay people about just how hard conservative deregulation and profiteering just boned the economy. What you wanna bet Bush's backers walk away with a big fortune... Or yet another bailout at taxpayer expense from those who say the people don't deserve social services.

These corporations are and have been let run riot by the same characters the Religious Right clamors to put in office. And McCain and Palin want more of the same.

But as you can see below, Spidey'll lie for them and scream abuse as if his economic notions weren't as ignorant and twisted as his sense of science or religion.

Others will say it more mildly, but the fanatics'll just blame the people they consider 'bad' and clamor for more abuses from the mighty, as long as they get to feel better than someone....

I warned you about what you spent all that time paying attention to, ...trying to hurt queer people, would do to contract law and other things you might be needing... Not to mention all the other things going on while the Right was diverting attention.

If you get my meaning, there.

Economics are dictated by the people. If more people are greedy, the economy tanks. The financial market (stock market) are now set up to soothe the wishes of the SPECULATORS.

The interest rates just moved along with the speculators. The banks, if they used their proper judgments, need not follow but they did follow because of THEIR GREED.

The government can fix it and bring back the interest rates back to normal. They can if they want to.

The point is NEVER KILL THE GOOSE WHICH LAY THE GOLDEN EGG. That is how the economy should be run.

What happened today, Spidey, was the collapse of two major investment capital firms. If that's 'the people,' you coulda fooled me.

I have seen it coming and if not for government intervention with fannie and freddie, it could have been worse.

Saving fannie and freddie is not the answer. They should extend their help to the owners of those foreclosed houses and restructure their payments.

These recent bank failures is a result of that misstep.

I have seen it coming and if not for government intervention with fannie and freddie, it could have been worse.

Saving fannie and freddie is not the ONLY answer. They should extend their help to the owners of those foreclosed houses and restructure their payments.

These recent bank failures is a result of that misstep.

"Economics are dictated by the people."

In a long life, besieged by demented statements from idiots, the above evidence of a mind lacking any thought processes whatever absolutely wins the prize. On to the Guinness Book of World Records! The King of Stupidity will be crowned!

PAGANPLACE

You wrote, "Well, didn't I just see a post from you today, using a book of words to say Islam was a lie for making similar assertions, Thomas?"

The comment made by JohnCivillo was, "You wrote, "Yes… My dear… I am inviting you to ISLAM, the Ultimate and Absolute Truth."

My reply was, "If I read this statement correctly, you are saying that islam is truth.

Jesus said, "I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life.",what He said is either true or it is a lie.

If it is True, then the Truth is a Person, not a religion.

If it is a lie, then why would the god of islam chose a liar to be one of his prophets?"

I made a comment about what he said and placed a question at the end of it. Did you read the comment and the question? I made the comment and placed the question based on the fact that I have met God, Who is a Trinity.

It doesn't matter if you or anyone else on planet Earth believes that God is a Trinity, Truth is Truth.

Partial truth is not Truth, as plenty of people should know, the best liars use some truth.

God is a Being of Love, Pure Love, it is about God, about Love, it is not about religion.

Religion can help lead someone to God, but God can use anything to lead someone to Him.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

You are an idiot Arminius. You are an idiot. You have no idea what you are talking about.

Hey you Evilangelicals, your votes gave us George Bush and all these massive economic problems. I hope you are hurting as badly as I am. God does not love you.

Always ask, "Who benefits?"

Evening. Being kept up a bit. :)

Thomas:

"what He said is either true or it is a lie."

Well, it could also have been an error, a misquotation, a metaphor, or any number of rhetorical devices, actually. Certainly that passage doesn't say no one else is... if the guy were dictating to scribes or speaking to the literal-minded in the first place: remember the times.

Anyway, certainly plenty of stories from Celtic myth describe characters saying they are this or that, in a *poetic and magical sense.*

Amergin wasn't saying he was the 'one and only wave of the sea, sound of the sea, stag of seven tines,' etc, etc, this was a different sort of meaning.

So for something to not be the 'exclusive truth' doesn't mean it's a *lie,* that's an artificial dichotomy, and in that case a double-standard, as you applied it to someone else making similar claims about words and the Divine.

--
Vote: YES to California P R O P O S I T I O N-8!
Vote Yes Proposition-8! .... P R O P O S I T I O N-8!
--
And, Vote Yes to Florida’s Proposition-2
--
VOTE: To Undo what a Usurping Public ’Justice’ self served!

VOTE: “NO” to GLBT Marriage, zero sacred!

Contrary to not only against 'Separation of Church & State', but also against the ‘sanctity’ [if ye know what that Word means] Of MARRiAGE' between a Real Man & Real Woman, not a Mr. & a Mr., nor a Ms. & Ms. Next thing we know they [non-straight vile folks] will want to marry their Dogs or Cats…, hence destroying or Defiling, thee sacred word [real] “Marriage” (on Paper or by a knot & or by Word) that gives us parental Birth, not between a Mr. & Mr.s etc..
---

Att: F E D U P, @ 6:28Pm, From ‘Under God’

Ye saith,

“For God so loved the "whole" world.... John 3:16” [note Fed-up, But this “John” does not make Ye Straight.]

"Republicans
Democrats
Gays????????????????????
Muslims
Jews
Whites
Blacks
Asians..”
---

Pleazzzaaa Fed-up! Go 'Tiptoe through the Tulips'.

Do not use the Non-Straight Word “Gay“. It does not Belong in the Group nor the Theme!

Goodbye 'QUEERS!' [note: Fedup; please give Us straights back the old-word 'Gay' where such word never/Did-not, referred to 'Same-Sex' kinky & Risky ways, but meant 'Coloroful...'! Soo,

Use the 'Proud' word QUEER instead , not Gay as in Sexual Prefrences or Orientation!

Or say "NON-STRAiGHT".

After-All, Ye [Vile] people made it a thing (started in N.Y.C.) between Ye Non-Straights (Domestically & Internationaly) Vs. Us Straight (Domestically & or Internationaly)!

But now It is Us STRAiGHTS Vs. Non-straights/Queer National/Agents! THEREFORE:

Vote [instead]: Yea! Se! Ya! Da! Eee Haa!... To:

"Sacred is matrimony between a real SPORADE (Ms) and a real MAVORiTE (Mr), never by Mr & Mr,
Ms. & Ms.."

Please, YES or NO?????

"i"m Waiting QUEER-NATiON!

------------------------------------- WOW!

Non-Straights are ANTi-Bibles. Anti-EKCLAT-ARiANs…, Please see This Excerpt Around July.10.2008.

“CASCADE TOWNSHIP — A Canton man is suing Zondervan Publishing and a Tennessee-based publisher, claiming their versions of the Bible that refer to homosexuality as a sin violate his constitutional rights and has caused him emotional pain and mental instability.

Bradley LaShawn Fowler, 39, is seeking $60 million from Zondervan, based in Cascade Township, and another $10 million from Thomas Nelson Publishing in the lawsuits filed in U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan.”

And Also see: LDS Church issues statement on same-sex marriage

Document praised, criticized by group of gay members

: http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700257603,00.html

---------------------------- WOW!

Note: most Non-Straights are becoming Pagans & Wiccns, Witches.

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Vote: California P R O P O S I T I O N-#8!
Vote Proposition-8! .... P R O P O S I T I O N-#8!
Vote Floridas Proposition #2!
Vote Florida's Proposition #2!

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From: The EKCLAHT-ARiAN movement for Gridarian Democracy & Trans{finite Civilization 2013+

--- Originally Posted SEPTEMBER 13th, 2008, 7:38P , but Jealously Deleted by WAPO & Co.

Vote:
California P R O P O S I T I O N-8! 'Non Straights', aka 'Queers', are Allowed a Real-Marriage!

"Next thing we know they [non-straight vile folks] will want to marry their Dogs or Cats"

Why do people who somehow imagine this to be the case get taken so *seriously* when it comes to who can define someone else's sexuality?

I mean, really.

People who think discriminating against same sex couples (and all the real harm this causes,) is the only thing protecting them from marrying a kitty cat have bigger problems than lil old us. :)

"Note: most Non-Straights are becoming Pagans & Wiccns, Witches"

And, you know, JJ, this really isn't true. Any more than your assertion that most Pagans are gay.

But the way you monotheists talk about us, what would be surprising about that? It is a fact that the vast majority of *homophobes* here in America use the Bible or some similar 'revealed book tradition' to justify their hatred, and in fact that Bible *does* contain a lot of hate speech and condemnation. And in fact it can cause a lot of anguish and trauma when people treat kids as that book characterizes us.

PAGANPLACE

Jesus said, "I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except thru me", as I said, it is either true or not, Jesus left no room in this statement for a half-truth.

You wrote, " Certainly that passage doesn't say no one else is.", actually, it does say NO ONE comes to the Father except thru me.

It doesn't say that there is only one way to Jesus tho.

Considering that God is One and is a Trinity, there could be various ways to Jesus and to the Holy Spirit but Jesus said that there is only one way to the Father, so as I said, Jesus is either telling the Truth or He isn't, there is no wiggle room here.

As I have said many times: God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.

Also considering that God is a Being of Love, Pure Love, there are some people that are reaching out to God that do not even believe that there is a God and there are others that believe that there is a God and aren't reaching out at all, of course only God can look into one's heart.

As I have also said many times: It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

God gave us free will and every day we exercise that free will, just in living our life and we are responsible for what we do and I know that I, for one, have done wrong.

God's Plan is for ALL to be with Him in His Kingdom and His Plan is unfolding before our very eyes.

Isn't it something that it is all about LOVE?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Here's a news clip why the Dems are the scourge of this country.

" The House voted late Tuesday to open waters off the Atlantic and Pacific coasts to oil and gas drilling but only 50 or more miles out to sea and only if a state agrees to energy development off its shore.

Democratic leaders called it a step toward energy independence, but Republicans labeled it a "SHAM" because most of the estimated 18 billion barrels of oil believed to lie below off-limits coastal waters are within 50 miles of land and will remain out of bounds. "

"actually, it does say NO ONE comes to the Father except thru me."

Well, *if* he actually said that, which isn't a given, it still could *mean* a lot of things other than what you assume it does.

Taking it as a given for the sake of the argument he did say something which corresponds to those English words, ...you still see it in terms of a lot of the assumptions about the world that come from the baggage of modern Christianity, notably, the interpretive literalism.

Again, he wasn't speaking to scribes or people so *literal-minded* as moderns are.

For instance, as I mentioned, if he was speaking poetically, he could have been saying that 'Compassion and self sacrifice and all this, this is what I'm representing, this is the only way to be close to my God.'

Similar sentiment, I suppose, to your notion that 'Well, there are many ways to what Jesus is.'

If you make a mere textual authority out of the guy, though, you could be missing the point or even essentially making one of these 'idols' you fear so much out of him, or that book, or whatever.

Certainly, it's very often used to dehumanize those of different beliefs, who may have our very own reasons for kindness and compassion.

There's a tendency to presume one's motivated by Jesus, for instance, if a Pagan does something Christians approve of... which is harmless enough on its face, but still sets up a world where people can turn around and think Christians, or certain *kinds* of Christians, are the only real source of 'redeeming qualities,' so it's still OK to say people of other ways need not be seen as fully human.

This is part of the little hazards I've been trying to point out about your attitude, the past week or so, Thomas... I wouldn't go to this level of detail if I didn't think you could understand. ..even if you're kind of always trying to translate things into your 'language' so to speak.

You talk about a very non-verbal experience of 'God' ...then leap to assume this means it was about certain things about Biblical authority... this kind of thought process can really lead to a lot of folks, in my opinion, missing the point, shall we say.

" The House voted late Tuesday to open waters off the Atlantic and Pacific coasts to oil and gas drilling but only 50 or more miles out to sea and only if a state agrees to energy development off its shore."

What, is this another case of Republicans not liking "States' Rights" when it doesn't suit them?

"Democratic leaders called it a step toward energy independence, but Republicans labeled it a "SHAM" because most of the estimated 18 billion barrels of oil believed to lie below off-limits coastal waters are within 50 miles of land and will remain out of bounds. "

The real sham is that the oil companies already have drilling rights to *plenty* of offshore oil, which they aren't drilling. They just want to get more while they have oil men in the White House who won't even make sure the Mississipi River oil barges are piloted by qualified professionals who won't crack the things up. Who in fact decided to let Exxon *skate* on most of what they owed the country for the Valdez disaster.

This is about profits. It won't help the economy, appreciably, anyway, and to whatever extent, not for years.

That said, having some more capacity here at home might well come in handy later. If it's not just another excuse to keep increasing consumption, which is *really* what the oil men want, whoever it hurts.

It's better than getting it out of Canadian oil shale, for instance. But. If we really want to drill *more* off our vulnerable shorelines, then we should do it with the strictest standards and make sure there's Hel to pay if anyone spills a drop or profiteers off further irresponsibility. Make it worth the oil companies' while, and no more. I understand the poor guys aren't making profits that are record-setting *enough* just lately.

And the below in context of a *comprehensive* conservation and alternative energy plan... not as part of trying to keep the rest of the world burning fossil fuels.

Thing about oil is, the stuff's just so darn useful, even if you don't burn it. But don't think drilling will fix the economy. It won't.

PAGANPLACE

You wrote, "Taking it as a given for the sake of the argument he did say something which corresponds to those English words, ...you still see it in terms of a lot of the assumptions about the world that come from the baggage of modern Christianity, notably, the interpretive literalism."

No, I take it from the fact that I met The Trinity.

You also wrote, "For instance, as I mentioned, if he was speaking poetically, he could have been saying that 'Compassion and self sacrifice and all this, this is what I'm representing, this is the only way to be close to my God.'"

But that is not what He said, is it?

And then you wrote, "Similar sentiment, I suppose, to your notion that 'Well, there are many ways to what Jesus is.'"

This is not what I said at all, what I said was, "It doesn't say that there is only one way to Jesus tho."

You also wrote, "If you make a mere textual authority out of the guy, though, you could be missing the point or even essentially making one of these 'idols' you fear so much out of him, or that book, or whatever."

If you have read what I have been writing and I don't mean agreeing with it or anything like that but have just read it and thought about it, then the above statement makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Then you wrote, " so it's still OK to say people of other ways need not be seen as fully human."

This is not even close to what I have been saying, is it?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

You cannot worship two gods, or serve two masters.
Obama believes he IS God.
His followers worship him as a God.

You cannot be both a Democrat and a Christian.
Believing otherwise has brought our world to the edge of destruction.

Today, in Elko, Nevada, Hussein declared war on America. He has launched intimidation strikes against any who question his new religion.

It is time to stop trying to make people who hate you like you. It's time to resist, and if necessary, strike back.