Church Silence on the Economy

While it would be nice to have some attention paid to basic financial education, and to paying oneself first (tythe thyself) probably not going to happen. This would require change in behavior and some sacrifice, and few religious leaders, trying to increase the size of their flocks, are likely to anger them by asking them to make sacrifices for their own good.

Greed got many into this mess, and a one dimensional view of the world contributed. From the "all government is bad and all private industry is good" to "the market knows best" platitudes, you get unlimited excesses and greed. I have my doubts that you'll be hearing much from the pulpits about getting more government back into our lives.

The religious institutions shaking their fingers at the world, right after they shake down their members for 10% of their gross...do I hear that right?

Can anyone cite a spiritual leader-type that has said, "Give away 10% of your gross to charities you deem worthy"? They're always looking to fund their own bottom line, first and foremost.

Religion is an opium. sedate puplic with religion and loot as much as you can

I can only speak from my observation of various protestant churches, but I've never sat through a coherent sermon or series of sermons on the application of biblical financial principles (care for the poor, shunning interest, avoiding debt, the concept of Jubilee, the sin of greed, the virtue of contentment with simplicity and even with want, etc.). I suspect that following biblical principles in this area would require real sacrifice and a change in lifestyle, and even though it's what Jesus did, the pastor who tried this might be shown the door.

Crown financial ministries is a parachurch group that does a reasonably good job at this, and some churches do use their material, but it clearly hasn't been enough to make a widespread difference.

I quickly skimmed the article and my thought has been the same throughout the presidential campaigns. As a follower of Christ, it is my worldview, that change will never be ultimately be brought about through politics. We attempt to legisilate morals but laws will never change your personal view of morality. Change only comes within as you know the Truth. And the Truth according to Scripture is Jesus as He said, "I am the way, I am the truth, I am the life..."

As far as money goes, Jesus Christ's focus was against using the temple for business as oppossed to teaching the Word of God. It is clear from Scripture as well that a believer in Christ cannot serve two masters, specifically you cannot serve God and money. That does not make money evil but we tend to let it control us.

I would exhort believers to not be greedy but what control do I have over non-believers. NONE! They will do as they see fit. They do not believe as I do. That is there choice. From a citizen of the United States perspective, I don't want to see corporations greedy and unscrupulous as this can cause an economic downturn. However as a believer my trust is in the Lord and not money so I want business to be done ethically and I want to see people prosper but if somehow my finances fail me I know Jesus never will.

Dean Samuel Lloyd III spoke to events this past week from the standpoint of scripture, citing both Old Testament and the Gospel of Matthew. His sermon is available on the Washington National Cathedral's website.

While Jesus did indeed speak many times to issues that transcend the generations most of his sermons presented values and morals in the context of his own current events, rather than speaking only into his time. I think topical and contextual sermons do have a valid place and it seems that is what the editorialist wants. However, that is not what Jesus did. Faithful pastors may choose to follow the example of Jesus and speak more to values and morals, rather than react to events and dance only to Wall Street and current events.

The comment about the United Methodist Pension Program seems meant to reassure those who will soon receive retirement benefits that their future is safe. Would that other retirement fund managers could do the same.

I appreciate that there are some fund managers that have not followed speculative markets. Rather than roast them for following fairly conservative and traditional investment choices (and generally scriptural ones too) I would rather have had the writer hold them up as examples of wise and prudent investors in a larger community of greedy ones.

I'm LDS and grateful for the practical help available through the Church. We are taught to live “providently,” to avoid unnecessary debt, and to repay our obligations. Deeper values like humility and developing peace within help to avoid costly showiness. When in trouble, other members of the Church pitch in. I’ve helped others move, re-roof their house, This includes regular lessons about household financial management mixed in with spiritual and service lessons as well as tangible specifics like:
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* A welfare program that includes a global network of Bishop's Storehouses. Any local Church leader can assist with acute shortfalls to sustain living conditions. Funds for this are provided through our monthly two-meal fasting and contributing the cost of what we would have eaten. Local leaders also can order food, clothing, and other goods from the Storehouses, which are provided without charge. Much of the goods distributed here are produced by volunteers in Church-owned farms, ranches, canneries. I’ve been humbled as I helped can peaches for less-fortunate people. At inception in the 1930s, Marion G. Romney explained that the purpose of our welfare system was both to exalt the poor and to humble the rich so that all cwould be edified. Here is one person's experience: bycommonconsent.com/2008/02/a-little-fervency/
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* A network of LDS Employment Resource Centers around the world which offer free classes and other training in job searching, counseling, job postings, computers to use, and mentors. See: providentliving.org/location/map/0,12566,2026-1-2,00.html
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* A Perpetual Education Fund that makes low-interest loans in less-developed areas of the world to help people acquire the training to raise their usefulness to employers. The fund has made more than 30k loans in less than a decade. See: lds.org/pef.
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* Employment Specialists called in local wards (congregations) and stakes (dioces) that serve, like all other local callings in the Church, without pay.
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* ProvidentLiving.org, a comprehensive on-line resource for employment, family resourse management, social resources, and humanitarian service. Various on-line training sessions are available here.
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* Counsel over the pulpit, including in our semi-annual General Conferences.
Go to lds.org and enter “Family Finances” in the search box to see a plethora of talks and printed materials.
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A favorite of mine, from 1938, is,
“It is a rule of our financial and economic life in all the world that interest is to be paid on borrowed money. May I say something about interest?
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“Interest never sleeps nor sickens nor dies; it never goes to the hospital; it works on Sundays and holidays; it never takes a vacation; it never visits nor travels; it takes no pleasure; it is never laid off work nor discharged from employment; it never works on reduced hours; it never has short crops nor droughts; it never pays taxes; it buys no food; it wears no clothes; it is unhoused and without home and so has no repairs, no replacements, no shingling, plumbing, painting, or whitewashing; it has neither wife, children, father, mother, nor kinfolk to watch over and care for; it has no expense of living; it has neither weddings nor births nor deaths; it has no love, no sympathy; it is as hard and soulless as a granite cliff. Once in debt, interest is your companion every minute of the day and night; you cannot shun it or slip away from it; you cannot dismiss it; it yields neither to entreaties, demands, or orders; and whenever you get in its way or cross its course or fail to meet its demands, it crushes you.
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“So much for the interest we pay. Whoever borrows should understand what interest is; it is with them every minute of the day and night.” – J. Ruben Clark, April, 1938
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Our assistance is not limited to members. We had more than 7k volunteers from the southern states go in to help with the post-Katrina clean-up. They came self-sufficient with their own camp equipment, food, water, and tools. Providentliving.org currently shows our contributions to Myanamar. The Church still helps recovery from the Indonesian tsunami. Other work includes fresh-water wells in Africa and agricultural training through our service missionaries around the world.

" Catholic bishops remain focused on abortion."

Not true. Check out the USCCB 2008 Labor Day Statement. You can find it at www.usccb.org.

Perhaps Mr. Waters should do a little research before he makes sweeping assertions.

I think you didn't too much research for your story. Last week as the news was breaking, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints sent the following email out to everyone subscribed to their Church Gems mailing list. It was extremely comforting.

"Tribulations are frightening. And yet the Lord said: 'Be of good cheer, for I will lead you along. The kingdom is yours and the blessings thereof are yours, and the riches of eternity are yours." 'And he who receiveth all things with thankfulness shall be made glorious' (D&C 59:7)."The kind of gratitude that receives even tribulations with thanksgiving requires a broken heart and a contrite spirit, humility to accept that which we cannot change, willingness to turn everything over to the Lord--even when we do not understand, thankfulness for hidden opportunities yet to be revealed. Then comes a sense of peace."When was the last time you thanked the Lord for a trial or tribulation? Adversity compels us to go to our knees; does gratitude for adversity do that as well?"President David O. McKay observed, 'We find in the bitter chill of adversity the real test of our gratitude . . . , which . . . goes beneath the surface of life, whether sad or joyous' (Pathways to Happiness, comp. Llewelyn R. McKay [1957], 318)."

The economic analyses you offer is far too reductive to warrant comment, so I will confine myself to wealthy clergy and tax exempt status for same. An example might be Rev. Wright with his multi-million dollar home, brand new, his lavish vacations, and windfall retirement.

Bottom line: Taxpayers should not be footing the bill of organized religions. Period. Anyone who wishes to belong to a church, synagogue, mosq, etc., is, of course, free to do so. All social services provided by same can and should be offered on a nonsectarian basis by community-based, government funded agencies.

If individual members of churches, mosqs, synagogues wish to contribute to same, they are, of course, free to do so.

At present, a public audit of all religious institutions claiming tax exempt status is long overdue.

IN THE MEANTIME, END THE HANDOUTS FOR ORGANIZED RELIGION.

1. Has anyone else noticed that Mormons are posting more on the Internet lately? They are responding to admonitions from their Prophet to defend and promote the "One True Church" in cyberspace.

2. Of all religious Empires, LDS has its own unique problems with GREED. The Money-digging and bank fraud committed by their First Prophet, Mr. Smith. Lavish personal lifestyle of their second prophet Mr. Young at the expense of poor LDS immigrants who gave their property to the Church. LDS is, I believe I read, the 2nd richest church per capita and soon to surpass the Catholics. YET, NO LDS MEMBER HAS THE RIGHT TO SEE THEIR CHURCH'S FINANCIAL RECORDS! ENOUGH SAID! What are they hiding? Even though Mormon Church has the most extensive commercial business Ventures of any church -- media, insurance, cattle farming, fishing, etc. There have been substantiated accusations of the leaders giving loans to each other with church money and then forgiving the debt.

3. Tithing is a requirement of all LDS faithful, even though it is not even in the New Testament. And its not even in the New-New Testament. Yet the church is not required to reveal their extensive church and wide-ranging Business ventures? What do they do with their wealth? Build new expensive temples all over the world to hold secret, ridiculous, non-biblical and non-Book of Mormon ceremonies. They are almost exact word-for-word copies of Masonic initiation rites.

4. LDS members: get some backbone and demand from your church the same accountability they demand from you. Blind faith in your greedy prophets will not put you in good standing with God nor your Temporal/terrestrial brethren.

5. Here's an idea for Mormons: Hurry take up your own collection and buy Temple Lot -- I'm tired of waiting for Jesus to return to Jackson County, Missouri.

As usual the Post and its writers are so out of touch with reality. I believe its the hate that you all have that puts you into such a sinful frame of mind, otherwise you would know or have heard about - I'm sure you would not have the intelligence to have read - several of the Roman Catholic churches recent encyclicals concerning wealth and work. It never ceases to amaze me and many people how ignorant you "On Faith" writers are, but then I understand you are all motivated by hate rather than love. So too bad, imagine all the 'good' you could do otherwize.

Annonymous, where did your unfounded attack against the LDS Church come from? In the first place, you were way off topic. In the second place, your accusations were blatantly false.

Where is the evidence of greed? Is the leadership getting rich somehow off the donations of the members? These men drive modest cars, live in modest homes and are surprisingling frugal. I've had the opportunity to be around a few of them a little bit, and know this to be true.

The donations of the Church are used for meetinghouses and temples where we can worship, for community and worldwide welfare assistance (the welfare program of the Church is renowned and well documented)and for major disaster relief. How does this qualify as greed? Is this what you find so offensive?

When I attend the temple, I come away with a peace that surpasses anything else I have experienced. The "ridiculous rituals" you refer to cause me to want to be a better person, more committed in living the way Christ would have me live. I'm sorry you find all of that so offensive that you feel it necessary to mock and ridicule. For me and millions of others, it is sacred.

I'm not sure what the "New New Testament" that you refer to is, but the fact remains that tithing was a commandment and a repeated principle given in the Old Testament. It was never repudiated in the New Testament. Therefore, shouldn't it be considered still in effect?

And as far as an increase of activity on the web, I propose that what you see is simply in response to vicious and unfounded attacks against the Church...kind of what like I'm doing right now in response to your random and off the mark attack.

Go your way in peace. We only desire to live our lives according to the dictates of our consciences. I'm sorry that offends you.

Lord God, we live in disturbing days:
across the world,
prices rise,
debts increase,
banks collapse,
jobs are taken away,
and fragile security is under threat.
Loving God, meet us in our fear and hear our prayer:
be a tower of strength amidst the shifting sands,
and a light in the darkness;
help us receive your gift of peace,
and fix our hearts where true joys are to be found,
in Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

NO, NO, HELL NO!

Public religion will never criticize the establishment because they are part of the establishment - sycophants. They endorse wars, greed and other actions of those in power. All these religious groups, large and small, organized or free-style, practice public religion - pray in public and on TV, build megachurches and prey on their members. Despite the cover words for differing groups - the message is the same: You must worship Jupiter [religion] and the Emperor [the nation]. They are one and the same.

Remember when Jesus challenged the rich young man to leave his possessions and follow him - and he couldn't do it. Most of us can't. It is like the famous monkey trap - a coconut has a hole drilled it just big enough for the monkey's hand to go through - when his hand is empty. Then the coconut is tied down and we wait for the monkey to put his hand in and grab some coconut meat. Because the monkey is too greedy to empty his hand in order to pull it out, he is trapped.

Now we are in a similar situation, only the metaphor is different. We have been convinced to let the fox guard the henhouse. Stupid, but we did it.

Surprise! Surprise! The fox ate the chickens. And we are told that if we don't buy the fox some more chickens - the rest of us will not eat.

DON'T DO IT! There is an alternative. EAT THE FOX.

Just say NO. Try it. You can do it. Say
NO NO NO HELL NO

David Waters,

Of all your pieces, this one arguably shows the least familiarity with Christianity.

You mention "Brother Alan Greenspan," who is, by the way, a Jew by ancestory and an objectivist (atheists, usually) by philosophy. Which of the Christian denominations holds him as a member of their brethren, then? Why should he be associated with us?

"Jesus said nothing about abortion, homosexuality or pension plans (although he did say not to worry about tomorrow)."

Good heavens, of course he didn't. Israel was on the right page about that. He wasn't an ear-tickler coming to get our approval. These days the trend is to preach against vices that everyone hates already. We love ministers who preach against racism. Bully for them! As if that was the message we needed to hear. The Jews of Jesus' day knew EXACTLY where God is on the nature of human sexuality; and abortion was unthinkable in their culture.

He preached to them against self-righteous complacency. While we could certainly use that message, and need preaching against greed as well (Jim Wallis was right), those aren't the only issues. The funny thing is that it is not just our fat cats and bigwigs who need that message. What percentage of Americans have invested in a stockmarket with the intent to make money without actually working for it? Um, a lot. We get taken advantage of the clever greedy not because we are so clever, but because we are so greedy.

Have you, David Waters, sold your 401k funds and decided to earn your whole retirement by the sweat of your brow, or are you, like most Americans (myself included), content to "invest" and let Chinese laborers earn our retirements for us? That's what we really mean, when we say "make your money work for you," isn't it? We mean, "make Chinese/Cambodian/Indian workers work for us."

Jesus did not call money the root of all evil. St. Paul did.

Take the beam out of your own eye (now, THAT Jesus said, Mt 7:3) before you go lambasting the various denominations for being no better than you yourself (probably) are.

Folks,
Waters's "contribution" is simplistic silliness. About the only thing approaching sense he wrote was this:

"I'm not saying our religious leaders should threaten to withhold communion from the greedy sinners responsible for the economy's going to hell in a financial basket, because that might include just about all of us. I know I've taken advantage of lower interest rates, mortgage refinancing, home equity growth (remember that?), stock options and other little 'trickle-down' perks we get during the bubbles."

Greed is a term thrown around too easily. The fact is that "greed" is in the eye of the beholder. It is a rare day when people accuse themselves of "greed" but we--or at least most of us--are quick to accuse others. Too many of us are quick to see what we do as "driving a hard bargain" or "good negotiations" whereas the other side of the negotiation is seen as "greedy."

If trying to get the best deal for oneself is greed then consumer advocates are some of the biggest offenders. In fact, as I think about it, one of the worst things about the Internet is that it probably has made each of us even more accusatory of others than we were before.

Physician, heal thyself!

I believe Pope Benedict has been addressing this subject with regularity.

While I don't believe Sojourners qualifies as a major denomination, I did think that Jim Wallis's piece on the subject could probably serve as a starting point for many denominations should they choose to tackle the subject of greed in our culture. It's an excellent piece, and worth the read.

http://www.sojo.net/blog/godspolitics/?p=2151

I often worry that the reason more churches don't speak out about such issues is that far too many of America's Christians are too deeply immersed in our soul-destroying consumer culture to speak out against the dangers of it. So many of my Christian friends are completely caught up in coveting the latest new gadgets, up to their necks in credit card debt, and completely at ease with the idea that God wants them all to prosper financially. I worry that this form of Christianity is taking a toll on real Christianity, or what it means to be true followers of Christ. I think Wallis's piece touches on a specific part of this culture, and perhaps it's time for all American Christians to do some soul-searching on the subject

S. Heriger
http://sheriger-codex.blogspot.com

Now that is an interesting conclusion to this post by David Waters. Jesus of Nazareth according to Mr. Waters was not concerned with sexuality, abortion, or security, but he seemed to be obsessed about wealth, greed, and money. Now why was that? Something in his upbringing or dissatisfaction with Joseph's business practices? What so upset him about
wealth? I'm not sure what good news he had for the poor, except that being poor was some qualification for a better after life. Why not aspire to make a better life in this mortal life? I mean I don't get J.'s obsession with the wealthy...

It's not such a mysterious thing. All churches receive huge tax benefits. The largest congregations have huge buildings, huge endowments and huge budgets, all protected under the law from taxation. Clergy have tremendous tax advantages, regardless of their pay scale. So greed, alas, exists everywhere.

As a member of the United Methodist Church, I witness and am part of the tremendous effort we make by reaching out to others with the gospel message and living that message through various ministries. Certainly, that is the aim of most if not all churches.

Your point about taking on Wall Street and its apparent "greed" is well taken. However, I think it should be within the context of looking at our own behavior to make sure we are not guilty of greed and exploitation individually, It is easy to cast stones at others but it is critical that we examine our own actions and movtives.

As far as pastors' pensions, this is part of their compensation. Their pay is not that great to begin with and they are on call 24/7. In addition, in the UMC they move frequently and are often not in a position to own their own homes. This makes retirement a real challenge. How can their counting on a pension be considered greed? I don't consider myself greedy for caring about the pension that I am hopefully going to receive from my local government employer after 30 years of service.

Finally, I hope readers and this author will examine how much churches contribute to communities in service and in trying to teach and live out the grace and compassion of Christ.
I urge readers to consider joining this effort - there's plenty to be done!

Anonymous of 8:31 AM...

"What are they hiding?"

What are you hiding? What's your name? What are the sources of all your assertions? How about a little accountability, eh?

A catholic priest makes on the order of $10K/ year + room and board. Greed does not exist everywhere..

I suggest, which many will refute, that these people are really the anti-Christ.

They have never read the good books except the chapter of Revelations. They only want, what most extremist Muslims want, the Second coming.

Greed and hypocrisy are key elements of the economic problem.
But it is tied down to our culture (we cultivate it). We live in FEAR of being poor or of not being as rich as possible. That generates false "needs" and it is taken advantage by snake-oil sellers. We buy 'options' to sell and 'options' to buy and we are unhappy when we don't have 'options', even though we don't really need them. Even the religious organizations sell 'options' and buy them. The two false options are "you can go to 'heaven' if you believe what we say, otherwise you go to 'hell'". But they are ignorant of where either one is. And so the politicians take advantage of that ignorance.

Ryan Haber:

"You mention "Brother Alan Greenspan," who is, by the way, a Jew by ancestory and an objectivist (atheists, usually) by philosophy. Which of the Christian denominations holds him as a member of their brethren, then? Why should he be associated with us?"

I don't think he should be, but what is a "Jew by ancestry"? Please explain. Is that different from a Christian (I include Catholics, Orthodox, etc.) by ancestry? Also, how are your reading skills, Ryan Haber? There is that which is called "satire." See dictionary.

Now, your Jesus (Yehoshua) is another story. He was a Jew by ancestry and every other criteria.

Let's move on to your Phil Gramm, your Chris Dodd, your Senate, House, etc., President, Vice President. Now, your Senate is predominantly Catholic, for mysterious reasons, i.e., nobody can explain it. Your House is predominantly Protestant. Your president was born twice, both times Christian. Your VP, Christian, born once, which in Cheney's case might have been to many times. Your Phil Gramm (Foreclosure Phil), your Chris Dodd, these Christians, the Christian Supreme Court, which didn't bat an eye when Glass Stiegel was repealed, well, now, do they have something to do with "us"? Meaning you?

Your Christian owned AIG that the rest of us are paying for? Do they have to do with "US"? Meaning you?

You are a seminary student? Judging from this and other posts, my guess is you haven't taken How Not To Be a Bigot 101.

In fact, the United Church of Christ issued an action alert on this very issue. You can read it at:

http://unitedchurchofchrist.blogspot.com/2008/09/jpanet-action-alert-economic-stimulus.html

THE FOOLPROOF BAILOUT

Unless the HOLES in the financial system are properly plugged up, this 700 billion dollar bailout will just GO TO WASTE. The reason why we are in this FINANCIAL MESS is because all those holes came into play at full throttle. Some people simply abused the weakness of the dollar for their benefit. Upon seeing the weakness of the dollar, they played up the price of oil. They can do it because as we have seen last Monday, there is no regulation that can stop them from doing so. With very high oil prices, the companies become vulnerable and weak. Here comes the SHORT SELLERS taking advantage of that weakness and betted that the stock prices of these companies would fail. As a result of stocks plunging, many companies struggled and many could have borrowed money from banks and in the process raised the interest rates. Also, profits from short selling contribute to excess liquidity and to offset this liquidity, interest rates are raised. As interest rates climbed, so does the mortgage interest rates. Many homeowners defaulted which put banks on a tough situation. Again the SHORT SELLERS saw the opportunity to profit so they came BETTING AGAINST the banks until we see all these big banks failed.

Now, we can see that there are THREE BIG SUCKING HOLES that came into play that put us into this mess. The FIRST are the SPECULATORS who played up THE PRICE OF OIL. The SECOND are SHORT SELLERS which pulled down the stock market. The resulting HOLE (third hole) which these two sucking holes created are the FORECLOSED houses which continue to burden the financial system.

The SOLUTION to this mess is simply to PLUG UP these THREE HOLES. First is to create an OIL PRICE STABILIZATION LAW which I explained in my earlier posts. Second is to PERMANENTLY BAN SHORT SELLERS. Thirdly, if they want a bailout, it should be used to relieve the homeowners by lowering their mortgage interest payments and return the foreclosed houses to its previous owners under a restructured payment scheme that's affordable. The third solution will release the banks from bad debt and can therefore continue and start clean anew.

The hedgefunds which will be affected by the ban on short selling can look for MORE PRODUCTIVE investments like the manufacturing sectors and new technologies sectors. This shift of investment would lower interest rates because manufacturers would not be crowding in the banks for loans. This will also make our manufacturing sectors competitive. As a result more jobs will be created.

This is WIN-ALL SCENARIO and to achieve this, THESE THREE HOLES MUST BE ATTENDED TO, otherwise, NO BAILOUT WILL SUCCEED.

GOD BLESS AMERICA.

Religious perversion and hypocrisy:
As a child I remember my first exposure to religious hypocrisy. It was Jimmy Swaggert (evangelist) on TV, he was begging and crying for his followers to forgive him for his transgression of employing a prostitute for his own earthly pleasures. Being a sensitive child my father noticed I was responding to the tears of Jimmy Swaggert and he proceeded to ask me if I knew what acting was. I said yes, at that age I did have some conceptual understanding of what acting was. My father stated he was acting, hence my first confusion about the messengers of God.

A few years later Swaggert is busted again with pornographic material and I get to witness our neighborhood priest in many of his frightening drunken stupors.
Then we have Jimmy and Tammy Baker, I hope you get the gist here of my young mind at the time and how it has impacted me as an adult.

Let me tell you how this has impacted me as an adult:
I have never questioned the existance of God.
I not only profoundly believe in God, I have experienced God in many ways.
I pray regularly.
I have never seen God (visually), but I see the work of God everyday.
God has never spoken directly to me but I have heard the voice of God speak thru other people.
From the stranger who asked me when I was a 17 year old high school dropout, if I would promise him and myself, that I would return to school and complete my H.S. education. That promise haunted me for 5 years until I enrolled in a program and got my G.E.D., only to continue on to 5 years of college.
To the little old lady at the bus stop, who unknowingly to her, had provided me with the resolution to my internal moral conflicts at the time, with a few words of wisdom.
I have heard God speak more thru ordinary people than from anyone speaking from behind an altar or pulpit.
I have felt the compassion of God so strongly it has bought me to my knees on several occassions.
I have tried organized religion, but find keeping my religious feelings private much more comforting, my personal experience has taught me that I find more solace in my own prayers than any sermon I have ever listened to.
I have read the bible many times and do not purport to be an expert on God.
My relationship with God is a continually unfolding journey in life.

The tragedy of all this is what is has done to me on a social level. Since I find no comfort in people that use God to judge other people, or to further their political agenda, I had to create a social God to protect my fundemental belief in God from hypocrites and perversion. Socially I proclaim my belief in universal intelligence. Privately I pray to the God whose presence I have felt since childhood.

I have come to realize the significance of what universal intelligence has really represented for me. It was a way for me to elevate and protect God and my beliefs and place them beyond reproach from the proversions of politics,and from the hypocrisies of some religious leaders. Universal intelligance allows me to be authentic with God both publicly and privately. Yet the deepest sadness here is that I am compelled to protect God at all.

God has become perverted publicly, God has become a tool for politicians and self proclaimed representatives of God, God has become a marketing tool.
That is why I feel compelled to protect God.

The only thing that I have found thus far this election cycle that has kept God authentic for me is the statement " Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor."
So my deepest and most heartfelt prayers this election will be for Americans to "KEEP GOD REAL"

God Bless

Mary:

The only thing that I have found thus far this election cycle that has kept God authentic for me is the statement " Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor."

September 24, 2008 5:46 AM

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The last time I read the New Testament, Jesus Christ didn't collect money or ask for votes.

NEVER cheapen Jesus Christ by dragging Him into comparisons with political candidates.

Compare policies and vote.

Leave the messiah bit out. There is only one Jesus Christ and He came two thousand years ago.

Jesus Christ will come again, but He is not here yet, and certainly is not likely to come asking for votes and campaign funds.

Mary,
I liked your post. I particularly like the fact that you can see God's work being done through the people around you. This is enlightened.

Its obvious that you have an internal conflict associated with organized religion. It seems that you'd like to participate but that you don't feel comfortable doing so because you see hypocracy from the pulpits. From the beginning, there have always been unscrupulous people who try to use God to their advantage.
These people face a very strong condemnation in the afterlife because they have impeded people from finding God for their own purposes. And its clear that they don't really know or believe in God, otherwise they would not act that way.

However, not everyone who speaks of God is like that. Some do it from pure love of God alone. As Jesus says, you can judge a tree by its fruit. Good Fruit comes from good trees, bad fruit for bad trees. Translated, you can judge peoples intent by their actions. If preachers are making large amounts of money through their preaching, you would have to wonder what their true motivation is..

Its important however to distinguish personal weakness from bad intention. For instance, your alcoholic priest was not showing bad intent, merely a personal disease. As you so clearly identified in your post, God uses imperfect people to spread his message. This is true of priests as well. Just remember, that bible you use is the work of Catholic priests.

One of the reasons I feel so comfortable in the Catholic church is that the priests and nuns give up everything (sex, money) to spread his message. This adds tremendously to their moral authority in my opinion. While it is true that some falter (as shown so clearly by the pediophile scandal), it is also true that well over 95% are true to their vows and serve for love of God alone. There is clearly something to be learned from people such as these..

Paul C:

The Bible I use is definitely not the work of Roman Catholic padres!

Thanks be to God, that Martin Luther, John Calvin and the King James Version Bible Translators had enough vision to abandon the distorted Latin Vulgate text peddle by the Roman Catholic potentantes (read Mafia) and go back to the original Greek!

Ipanema,

You might be in denial, but the Bible was generated at a time when all Christians were Catholic (i.e., before the schism and before the protestant reformation.). This is true whether you are talking about the greek originals or the Latin Vulgate translation. The group that described them as canonical was clearly Catholic.

What do you have against Catholics that you would describe our leadership as the mafia? In particular, what are the distortions in the latin translations that you are disavowing?

You are the one in serious denial and are so ignorant that you don't even know it. Consider:

1)The initial Christian Church was the Greek Orthodox Church, not the Roman Catholic Church.

2)Why does Revelation 2-3 talk about churches in Ephesus, Pergamus, Philadelphia, Sardis, Thyatira, Pergamos, Philadelphia and Smyrna, which are all where today we find the nations of either Greece or Turkey?

3)Why is the New Testament originally written in Ancient Greek and even portions of the Old Testament were translated from Hebrew to Greek way back then?

4)Why did the Apostle Paul in his journeys go through Thessalonica, Corinth, Ephesus, etc before he got to Rome and preached the Gospel in Greek (e.g., see the account Acts 17:16-34, when he preached in Athens to Greek Epicurians and Stoics).

Buddy, don't drink that Roman Catholic Kool Aid, administered in industrial quantities to unsuspecting illiterate peasants for many centuries, who don't read the Bible because they can't read!!!!

Ipanema,
1. There was no Greek Orthodox Church until the great schism. Until then, there was one church and the head was in Rome.

2. The most probable reason that revelation is focused on the churches of Greece and Asia minor was because John, the author, was the apostle with jurisdiction over these areas.

3. Because of the influence of the Greek empire at the time, the most common language and the language of commerce was Greek (much as it is English now). If you wanted to communicate with the maximum number of people, you wrote in Greek.

4. If you look at a map, you will see that Turkey and Greece are between Jerusalem and Rome. And Paul was from Tarsus. It only makes sense that he would start close to home and work his way out.

You seem to place a lot of emphasis on the Bible, which is good. But yet, you seem to think that the Catholic church somehow took advantage of illiterate peasants by preaching to them the salvation of God. In fact, the Catholic Church is open to all, regardless of race, financial status or education level. God does not judge the way you judge...