McCain's Conversion: Political or Spiritual?

I didnt see any spirtitual aspect to his speech, I didnt think his speech was that bad, It was actually pretty good for McCain, He's not much of a speaker after all. I think its funny that (Levi), Sarah Palins -daugters Boy Friend was at the convention. Did any one else read all The Crazy stuff he said on his My Space Page? He Said he didnt want kids, and all kinds of other stuff I cant repeat. LOL wish my Girl Friends parents where that understanding. You can go to http://www.hotpres.com and see all kinds of info on Levi., and The Palin Trooper Gate. This was McCains biggest Gamble, that is for sure.

This is all terribly important.

I don't think we will ever have a political candidate that satisfies everybody's religious beliefs, so why do we even consider it? George Bush said he is a Christian, yet look at all of the murdered people in Iraq who were killed to get control of Iraq's oil reserves. Candidates will say they are Christian to get the Christian vote. I would rather see an honest, righteous atheist in office than a heathen who cloaks himself in the Christian banner.

McCain has a form of godliness but denies the power thereof. You can try to make him a christian all you want to, however only God can change his heart. When people, who are on TV and mimic an opponent with statements like "chosen one", "rolling back water" "and healing trees", are not true christians. God Will Not BE Mocked!

Check out if Cindy McCain is Baptist. Some men do convert to the denomination of their wives. There is no ulterior motive behind it. It is simply a matter of convenience for the couple to attend the same Church.

Senator Obama does not belong to any Church. Is that a matter of concern?

First century thinking to meet the challenges of the 21st century. Good luck with that.

It is precisely because the public are so obsessed about the politicians' religion that candidates feel compelled to put up a religious show. Too bad.

My fear is not so much John McCain and his beliefs but that of Palin, one heartbeat away from being President. Palin make GW Bush look like a religious moderate. Palin's Church believes that the President answers to God, That the US should be a Theocracy, that the apocalypse is at hand and that Alaska will be the refuge for the "saved", that Iraq is a Christian Holy war and the list goes on... We have seen what happens when a President imposes his religious views on America and it is not pretty.

Sarah Palin is a religious fanatic just like the Islamic Fundamentalists we are fighting, their passion, their logic, their sense of religious destiny are the same.

Last but not least, like all religious fanatics who break their own moral code they simply reinterpret their religion to suit their needs. An example of this is her teenage daughter who is pregnant, if it had been anyone else's child, for example McCain or Biden, she would have been railing against the moral decay, the "family values" etc., But since it was her, dogma has changes and now it does not matter if you have sex before marriage as long as IF you get pregnant you have to marry the father, or at least one of the guys you had sex with.

Hypocrisy is the cornerstone of American,and all religious fanatics, Palin and by extension McCain are no exception.

Just look at GW and ask "is this what Jesus would do?". In the case of Palin the answer is YES, her church belives that Jesus was a warrior. If you doubt me just see the video(s) on youtube.

That is another interesting aspect of this election, video on the web and how it changes the political game.

Mr. Waters,

So what's your point.
1. Regarding Barack Obama's adoption or non adoption of the practices of his church's denomination; why do you care, what point are you trying to make. If I sat in a church for 20 years, I would assume that I'm comfortable with the doctrine and beliefs of that church.
2). Why does it matter theologically and politically. I believe most hold the belief of the fundamentals of their religion, i.e., water immersion, transubstantiation, christening babies; it's all a belief, be that as it may, different sacraments and doctrines of faith. believe, so theology should matter to the person and I would hope it wouldn't be for political reasons.
3). Again, what do you care what McCain claimed/claims: that's his business.
What's quite unbelievable is these posts are to try and pick at someone's personal, relgious beliefs for the WRONG reasons.
I as a Christian; did not believe that I would vote for McCain as I was in agreement w/James Dobson of Focus on the Family but over the past couple of months, prior to the Sarah Palin, nomination, I was moving towards voting for McCain due to the fact, people proclaim to be different denominations for the wrong reasons, and their fruit show their true belief, unbelief or hypocrisy for what they believe. As you may know James Dobson, was leaning towards McCain before Sarah Palin's nomination but was elated when he found out that Palin would be the VP pick for McCain. We as fellow, evangelicals are very excited and feel that someone in the political arena understands our values, concerns and core beliefs.

What is your point Mr. Waters, All I can say is when we look back at history at the Phrarisees and Saducces who hated Jesus because he was a threat to their political standing and their greed as they were so puffed up and were appalled that their political and monetary standing were in jeopardy. All through Christianity with Paul and Peter's ministries, there were those what were in opposition to their ministries due their fear of their powereful standing in the communities of the religiosity of the day. I understand that this is common in politics as we speak.

Must be a slow day for you to waste so much time on this drivel. Mind your own business. If he wants to call himself a Baptist, so what?????

In the United States There is no religious test for public office. A man belongs to the religion he says he does. What's the problem?

If McCain wants to claim he's a Baptist, like me, then he needs to have been dunked. Otherwise, he, like my mother, should say he's an Episcopalian but he attends a Baptist church. It's pretty simple, and frankly, his theological choices don't matter. But what does matter is his use/abuse of it to win votes. Pick one and stick with it. Like choosing Palin, choosing Baptist while you're in SC and Episcopalian while you're somewhere else is a thin and despicable pander.

I think her point she is trying to make is he is trying to "play christian" to win votes and is not really a practicing christian. Republican party stresses how they a "christian" party and that what makes them better then democrats. I think she is calling the Repubs out. They talk lot about having christian values. Do the Repubs just talk the talk or do they actually walk the walk????

McCain, like so many "conservative Christians," is in fact a pagan. His kind nailed Christ to the cross and would do so again if they had the chance.

There is very little difference between the Christofascistic Republican Party and the Islamofascsists they like to rail against. Both have the same vision of America: woman are bare foot and pregnant, everyone is illiterate, and the country is ruled by a handful of superwealthy people posing as "defenders of the faith."

To borrow a phrase from bin Ladin: the Christofascists are the near enemy and the Islamofascists are the far enemy. Just as bin Ladin seeks to provoke this country to rally support for his cause in the Islamic world, Christofascists like McCain and Palin seek to whip up hysteria here about bin Ladin and embroil this country in endless middle eastern wars as cover for implementing their Christofascistic agenda here in the United States.

I believe McCain is a pretty typical person who attends a church. You attend a Baptist church for a while and you think you are Baptist, attend a Methodist church and you are Methodist etc.

McCain has not been Saved, experienced Glossolalia, nor is he first and foremost a Disciple of Christ. I believe these notions probably make him uncomfortable.

Not so with Sarah Palin, she is the real deal. Should she become president I have faith that she will lead our nation to our glorious destiny as written in scripture.

Of course it matters.

Claiming to be a Christian and using Christ's name to pursue selfish purposes is blasphemy. Today McCain is reported saying "my country saved me'. Well, 'my country', is not Christ, whom he also claims 'saved him'. Who or what does he then believe saved him, and from what?

McCain needs to clarify what his faith is to Christians. By leaving the matter with 'I have been saved' he attempts to escape this responsibility with a cliche.

If one is not believe that he is merely manipulating (genuinely) christian voters to get their votes by pretending to be one of them, he then needs to clarify what his faith means, since when, and why. Otherwise, Christian voters should assume the worst.

He also needs to clarify why he believes that 'winning a war', and a totally unjust one at that, is supported by the Christian faith. Where exactly does he read this in the New Testament?

Of course it matters.

Claiming to be a Christian and using Christ's name to pursue selfish purposes is blasphemy. Today McCain is reported saying "my country saved me'. Well, 'my country', is not Christ, whom he also claims 'saved him'. Who or what does he then believe saved him, and from what?

McCain needs to clarify what his faith is to Christians. By leaving the matter with 'I have been saved' he attempts to escape this responsibility with a cliche.

If one is not to believe that he is merely manipulating (genuinely) christian voters to get their votes by pretending to be one of them, he needs to clarify what his faith means, since when, and why. Otherwise, Christian voters should assume the worst.

He also needs to clarify why he believes that 'winning a war', and a totally unjust one at that, is supported by the Christian faith. Where exactly does he read this in the New Testament?

.......
Please excuse this second version with some grammar corrected.

This discussion is irrelevant garbage.

Joel --All nations are destined for glory unless they choose otherwise, the US of A included.

Please get off this christian imperialist narrative if you are a Christian, for imperialism is not Christian. Learning to love your enemies is.

Southern Baptists are a cruious lot. I was baptized into a Southern Baptist church when I was 7 years old. I am a practicing Southern Baptist today. However, the Southern Baptist Convention that I grew up with is not the Southern Baptist Convention today. The Southern Baptist Convention today is less tolerant, less forgiving, and more in tune with the 'elitist" Episcopaleans as evidenced by their penchant for anything other than Southern Baptist (the religion for the commons folk) in the White House. Perhaps McCain should run from claiming to be Baptist.

I know Dan Yeary's church, North Phoenix Baptist, which John McCain attends. I have worshipped there when visiting the area on family vacation. Dan Yeary is one of the outstanding preachers in the country today. He seems to remain above politics, preaching the Word the best he knows. However, it is obvious that John is conflicted personally about his religious beliefs. Not once when being interviewed at Sattleback by Rick Warren did John mention Jesus by name. Baptists have absolutely no problem talking about Jesus. I suspect that this matter of religious affiliation is but the tip of the iceburg of a person who is still searching for something. I found his answers calculated to appease the Sattleback evangelical congregation, which they seemed to do. However, the John McCain that we see on the campaign trail wants civility and a discussion of the issues but is not willing to put his desires into practice. He wants bipartisdanship, but is unwilling to share the credit for a great initiative with a memeber of the opposition party. John McCain is a conflicted man. It seems that he is afraid to plant his feet solidly on any ground. For this reason, he would be a larger political liability in the White House than Barack Obama.

Even John's stands on tax breaks presents him as ambivalent. This ambivalence causes one to ask, "Will the real John McCain stand up."

I pastor a Southern Baptist church near DC. Many people are a part of our church family who have never "joined" or been baptized. Most of them, if asked, would say they were baptist.

If pressed I'm sure McCain would clear it up that he "attends" a baptist church but that he is not an official member. I think he's been around the block long enough to know that making something like that up would only get him in serious trouble.

I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

You cannot accuse Obama supporters of foolishly hanging on his words and not asking tough questions... while simultaneously learning that McCain provides differing answers to what his religious faith is and not feeling deserving of a real answer.

That is, unless it doesn't really matter to you what the answer is as long as he stands up and says what you want to hear.

That's your choice, welcome to the millions of oblivious voters who are too lazy to ask the tough questions... then wonder why their nation fails them and blame the government.

By the People... For?

Mnjam: We all took part in Christ being nailed on the cross; it was because of us, he paid our penalty. Also, I've met some really wonderful people throughout my life who were believers and also those who are unbelievers and then I've also met, selfish, arrogant, prideful, mean and nasty people who profess to be believers or unbelievers. It's how you view your beliefs or unbeliefs. It's an individual moral core belief to wake up with a grateful, servant attitute or an ungrateful, "please me" attitude. There are also those who play church very well, take every type of ordinance inside the church and they are hypocrites. Again, those who are asking are asking for the WRONG REASONS: TO POINT FINGERS. EXAMINE YOURSELVES BEFORE YOU EXAMINE OTHERS...

I'm always extremely skeptical of any candidate or any political party that claims to be the representative of Christian beliefs (or any other religion, for that matter).

My personal belief system says Jesus taught first to do right by the poor and disadvantaged and to help them. I see very little the Republican Party is doing to really further that cause selflessly. I also think Jesus was more of an enviromentalist than many people want to see. Ask yourself if either party is being a good steward of the enviroment.

All the talk in the world simply just does not matter. Action does. Are any of these people actually doing something and not just talking about it.

It's one thing for a party to attempt to wrap itself around things like "Christian Values." It's a very different thing to actually practice it.

As John McCain says, the important thing is that voters know he's a Christian.

What I find shameful is that any Christian would be willing to mock the faith of Barack Obama. John McCain released an ad claiming that Barack Obama's promoted himself as a messiah, as the "One". The suggestion that a man of faith would compare himself to Jesus and Moses is simply offensive. No Christian should belittle the faith of another so cavalierly.

David says, "Personally, I don't care if McCain is Baptist or Buddhist."

Buddhist care and Mr. Mccain is not one nor does he exhibit their attitudes of equality.

Politics and religion are like mixing gasoline and a burning match.

Patrick

Joel wrote:

Not so with Sarah Palin, she is the real deal. Should she become president I have faith that she will lead our nation to our glorious destiny as written in scripture.

September 5, 2008 11:08 AM | Report Offensive Comments
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There is no mention of the United States in scripture.

David became king of Israel because of his pure heart. If what I've read about Sarah Palin are all true and her convictions are true, Im sure she will be the first female president of this country.

Among all candidates, she portrays what a true Christian should be. America would be great again as God wanted it to be.

"CHANGE IS COMING"

Anon wrote "There is no mention of the United States in scripture."

Yes, there is. Only true Chriatians can interpret the Bible correctly. Catholicism is NOT Christianity, that is why it's flock are ignorant about that fact.

Since there is no religious test for office, I don't really see why it is so important to categorize John McCain one-way-or-the-other. As a society, if we really want to have a test for the candidates we should give them intelligence, psychological and current event tests. Then we’d be sure that we had an intelligent person making the best decisions they possibly can for the country.

Now I know that many of us would like to have Spidey point out just where the United States is mentioned in the bible. But save your keystrokes, because if you ask him, he will simply say you are too stupid to see it. He never explains, he never answers a direct question, and we can only assume that he is simply unable to do so.

I think the point here is McCain's hypocrisy, his apparent willingness to adopt, for political gain, the outward trappings of a religious faith that is built around a core set of beliefs to which he gives no evidence of subscribing. The most important of these is that one cannot become a member of the church unless one undergoes a personal salvation, and evidences that by freely and publicly undertaking baptism by full immersion---which McCain has not done. So his claimed "Baptist" affiliation appears to be nothing more than a for-the-moment, for-appearances thing. Personally, I don't care whether he's a Baptist, an Episcopalian, a Catholic, a Jew, a Buddhist, or a Muslim. I do care about whether he's being honest and authentic about his religious beliefs, and what it says about his character that he would pretend to be something he's not in order to advance his political career. In my opinion, it's shameful and cynical, and makes a mockery of the religion he publicly professes.

This article is the perfect example of making a mountain out of a mole hill. Obviously he considers himself a Baptist since he has gone to a Baptist church for a long time - however, he personally hasn't chosen to be baptized and become a member so technically his membership is still Episcopalian. This issue is very common in churches all over America. I pastor a Baptist church with people who have not joined but attended for years. They would call themselves baptist even though technically they aren't. It is not worth writing a political article about.

I love the way the McCain supporters turn this discussion into a referendum on religion. It is not. It is a referendum on honesty, which John McCain apparetnly is lacking. His past statements about religious leaders in the Baptist church and his very recent (last summer) claim that he is an Episcopalian are evidence that he will stoop at nothing to get elected. His exploitation of religion is dishonest at best and better described as blasphemy. The voters should judge him harshly for that practice. There is another judge who will most likely be more compassionate than me.

Technicazlly one isn't "Baptized a baptist". A person is baptized Christian

_Most_ Baptists do not equate baptism with joining the local church. Baptism is a public act of obedience that proclaims one's belief.

A christian may be baptised without joining in official membership of a given local church. Most Baptist clergy would be happy to perform the baptism as long as they were reasonably sure that the person being baptised is a christian and understands what baptism is and what it isn't. Baptist churches would question why one would join their congregation if they are unwilling to be baptised as an act of obediance to Christ (but it is still not specificly an act of obedience to the local church).

I can see many reasons why a believing christian may have fellowship with and contribute to a given local church but be wary of declaring themselves in support of all doctrines proclaimed by the church heiarchy.

As far as sprinkeling or immersion, I have great appreciation of the symbology of death, burial, and resurection that is afforded by immersion. That does not mean that I would call someone that was sprinkeled as being less a christian, or less obedient. I speak here as a Christian who commonly worships in a Baptist church, but not as a Baptist official. Many Baptist congregations take a more conservative view requiring immersion. The only place I may get a little more dogmatic is whether the ordinance was performed before the person being baptised was of an age to understand and afirm its meaning.

As far as McCain being Epispocal or Baptist or simply a Christian, there are significant differences in the way they view God's will, and that may inform their world view and how adherants may express these differences in the way they govern, but whether he calls himself Baptist, Epispocal, or just Christian is more related to his personal walk with Christ than anything that needs close scrutiny by the voters.

It's very simple.

If John McCain has not been baptized into the Baptist church then he is not "saved." He has not accepted Jesus Christ as his personal savior. It takes a conscious commitment to be a Christian in a Baptist church and he has not made it.

As far as Palin, she believes that it is God's judgment when Palestinians kill Jews, that critics of George Bush are destined for Hell, and that there are serious questions about whether anyone who voted for Kerry can make it to Heaven.

Arguably neither is a real Christian. Their works show the true extent of their faith.

Cant you Christians put a zip on it. All this phony talk about who is more Christian than the other guy is enough to drive anyone to distraction. KEep your Christian stuff to yourselves. Dont spread it around. Dont force on all the others who dont think it merits discussion. Take your medieval beliefs and save them for a rainy day, like when McCain gets us into the next war with Iran. Remember that the founders did find it necessary to separate church and state.

Tony Gillotte

Since this is probably his last desparate chance to get elected, McCain is dishonestly using religion as a way to get votes. Just like he is using his "maverick" brand...but he is no longer a maverick, since he had to abandon all his principles to get the support of the Republican party elite and the corporate capitalists.

Religion needs to be banished from politics. The religious "vetting" that the candidates must undergo these days is shameful and not at all what our founding fathers had in mind.

He's military. That is both political and spiritual, so it's not as simple as "or". It's not life or liberty. It's life and liberty. I'm going on a slow speed pursuit for lunch. Have fun. Check with a machinist about tolerances.

He's military. That is both political and spiritual, so it's not as simple as "or". It's not life or liberty. It's life and liberty. I'm going on a slow speed pursuit for lunch. Have fun. Check with a machinist about tolerances.

The funniest thing is that I'd bet 95% of the people on here saying that McCain/Palin represent the change we need, probably voted for Bush. At the time, you told us "Bush is the change we need".

He's military. That is both political and spiritual, so it's not as simple as "or". It's not life or liberty. It's life and liberty. I'm going on a slow speed pursuit for lunch. Have fun. Check with a machinist about tolerances.

Angela---please do not think that you speak for all Evangelicals. You don't. The hate and lies that spew from the mouths of Republicans, as well as how they treat the rich and the poor isn't representative of any Bible that I read. More and more Evangelicals are getting away from the 2 note Christians who hang all of their "Christianity" on being Pro-life and pro-fear of gays. None of us are pro-abortion, but some of us believe that providing education, health care and support so women can avoid a pregnancy or have the resources to keep a child are pretty important. If you don't agree, please explain why abortions rose during the Bush administration and declined in the Clinton administration when real efforts towards decreasing abortions were made. It was a lot more than talk--it was action. Oh, but that means the government is involved. I know that's against the Republican agenda---except when they can stand on a soapbox and preach of the government getting involved to prosecute anyone involved in abortions.

McCain was once Stay the Course now he is for Change.
McCain was once the Straight talk Express now he is the Derailed Express.
What will McCain say next, I am a Uniter not a Devider, oh wait his protege said that before.But that won't stop him he will say anything he thinks will get him votes.

Hey Spidey, the people who wrote your bible didn't even the world was round, let alone that entire continents existed on the other side of that round world.

This putz won't even admit to himself how full of it he is, dont' expect him to admit it to you.

Portions of the Episcopal Church (high church) are very close in ritual to the Roman Catholic church. Both churches believe in infant baptism and that one is born again at that time and if baptized in most other Christian traditions need not be rebaptized upon conversion. The Episcopalian and Baptist split in the southern states which were part of the 13 colonies somewhat reflects class and geography as the wealthier planters and landowners were generally Episcopalian and working folks and those in the mountains tended more to be Baptist.The presence of Scotch and Scots Irish settlers also made the Presbyterian Church strong in those parts of America settled by those groups. One of the more condescending remarks about religious differences that once was true is the remarks in a River Runs Through when the Scottish descended Presbyterian Pastor pastor and father finds out that the writer son is dating a Methodist and the father declares that Methodists are Baptists who can read. I think McCain's concept of spirituality is more like that of Reagan's than the present Bush who was also raised an Episcopalian but became Methodist after marrying Laura.

McCain is not a Baptist. He couldn't have attended a Baptist church for 17 years and not have received full immersion baptisim if he were sincere. Why hasn't he received their Baptism? Who knows for sure, but a tenet of the orthodox, creed based churches, of which the Protesant Espiscopal Church is one, is that one only needs to be and should only be baptised once. From the Nicene Creed: "I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins." If an Episcopalian or Methodist wishes to become a Catholic, they do not receive another baptism; instead, they are "received," normally being required to recite the creed or be chrismated Their original baptism is recognized as efficacious. Only the Anabaptist (Rebaptizers) and Baptist churches require re-baptisim. The orthdox, mainline Protesant churches and Roman Catholics (the Orthodox Catholics vary by sect) consider re-batism not only unnecessary but wrong. Maybe McCain is hindered by his early affiliation, which makes his claim to be a Baptist meaningless.

One cool thing about this is twofold. That Obama has rejected the liberal Black UCC denomination, that is, he's moving towards the center pertaining to his religious identity. That McCain has NOT exhibited any religious-ness at all, kind of in between Episcopal and Baptist, a centrist religious location. I like the relgious position of both guys at this time.

But, the kicker are the words of Joel here: "Should she become president I have faith that she will lead our nation to our glorious destiny as written in scripture." Now I don't see Palin as very religious in a Christian sense, maybe in a political sense. But, if she is a closet Theocrat, then I would think that the fundimentalist back-thought is: McCain's old and will likely die in office or at least become feeble or ill, AND we've got our girl as copilot! Welcome, our Destiny, Theocracy !!!!!!! No wonder Dobson is on-board now !!!!

Mr. Cooper, whether someone who calls themselves a Baptist but has not received adult Baptism or not is making a mountain out of a mole hill, and you say you are a Baptist minister? I think you might find many, many Baptist who would disagree with you.

The answer is easy: McCain is a hypocrite.

McCain says "Country First" but puts country last by selecting Palin for political reasons.

He criticizes Obama for not having enough experience and then picks someone with even less experience.

He says he will run an honorable campaign and runs adds implying that Obama is "uppity" (as a Republican congressman called him yesterday).

I have admired and supported John McCain up until now. I see a man who, like Faust has made a pact with the Devil in exchange for what he covets.
I believe that he has profaned any religion he claims, and the name of God.

If I continue to accept McCain’s words and support this false Prophet, I am a hypocrite.

I urge each of us to seek the light through The Word and the truth it reveals.

Per McCain's speech, and his williness now and historically to step outside the Republican mold, I suspect this to happen regardless if he wins or not. The Republican Party will split. "Normal" Republicans will join with independents and moderates to form the new Party. Fundimentalist Christian Republicans will form their own party of Theocracy. We will then have a three-party struggle. The Theocrats, will then employ now-blatant attempts, no longer covert, at bringing upon the return of Jesus via Christianification of the USA and the World. They care not about the final status of the USA or the world as a set of democratic nations. They support Israel, not in hopes to maintain that democratic state, but instead only to bring about Armageddon on Israeli soil. Likewise for the good ol' USA. They care not about a democratic world, only about the End Times and the final rule of Jesus on Earth.

He reminds me of Piyush Jindal, aka Bobby Jindal, who made a convenient conversion to Catholicism and lately has pondered becoming a Baptist. In college Piyush was known as a confirmed atheist but politically very adept.

"We can be absolutely certain only about things we do not understand." -
-- Eric hoffer

baptist? Episscopalian? Whats it matter?
It won't for any voter who may benerfit from a Mccain election victory.
Most conservatives would vote for anyone who'd give thema tax break, the conservative priorities.
Lie about a war?
Don't worry about it as long a syou give me a tax break.
Claim that the anthrax atttack may have come from Iraq?
That's ok, I can forget that because he does stuff for me that outnumbers the flip flops and lies he utters.

I am surprised that the religious right has tolerated McCain's attempt to straddle the Episcopalian and Baptist faiths. Maybe this is one reason for their happiness about the Palin pick. She's what they would consider a 'movement' conservative, a true believer, while McCain is not.

Spiderman2: "CHANGE IS COMING"

Hallelujah !

I hadn't expected it under a woman, but the Lord's Will be done. Palin will lead us all to the promised land !

You know what, after reading all these posts. All the doubts most of us seem to have regarding the intentions of McCain to use our vote to win.
The obvious question becomes: Does McCain actually have the proper god influenced character needed to be President? Is he using us?

Only the devil uses Gods true soldiers for the wrong reasons. Trick the eyes of man.

And like my father use to say in situations like this...If you gotta ask then you already know.

It's obvious Palin is a pander. It should have been Hutchinson of Texas. McCain has changed serious face in the past 9 months. Things that should have been instinct are not at all.

Palin is being coached right now. Not somebody I want as possible President. God is giving us plenty of signs if you ask me. And the Devil always makes bad look good.

There just ain't something right about this whole ticket. We all should pray for the right answer. But my heart tells me McCain is not the one. I don't buy the spin; Barack is a GOD fearing man. Biden is a blow hard, but he's a steady hand. And let's face it; they'd be out in 4 yrs.

McCain is the problem, Palin would be stronger in 4 yrs, and I will have followed God wisper.

Just sayin’

exactly what kind of baptist is he...you should know you cannot generalize...because otherwise you are just lying and attacking him...

Formal religion has no franchise on belief. McCain is a believer. you do not spend 6 years as a POW being tortured and starved and come out as an atheist or agnostic.The smallness of the bloggers who criticize McCain about not belonging to any formal religion are themselves hypocrites. The bible does not list religions it talks of faith in God. Many people never enter a church door but pray to God on a daily basis. No religion whether Christian or otherwise has cornered the market on God or by any other name you may want to refer to the supreme being.

HOLY PALIN, SPIDEY!
GOOD CHRISTIAN MEN UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF A (gag) WOMAN !!!!!
Let's rethink this!

You religious people are all nuts. It's all voodoo, all make-believe. There are a thousand religions out there competing for your support and they all claim to be the ONE TRUE RELIGION. To argue about which religion is right is absurd and sad. You don't need the enslavement of religion. You have within you knowledge of what's right and what's wrong. That is how you know to ignore the inhumanly cruel teachings found in the bible, and cherry pick the moral parts. The Truth Will Set You Free. Good advice.

sorry musing, my grandfather spent two years in a japanese pow camp in the phillipenes, he went into the war an agnostic and came out a raging atheist.

You may have a good understanding of why religious people are religious, but you obviously have no understanding of why atheists are what they are.

******THIS JUST IN*********

John McCain wonders out loud "WHAT HAVE I DONE IN SELECTING SARAH"?!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-QevraCQUc

"McCain/Palin - Proven ethics, leadership, experience and judgement to work for the American people to do what's needed, right and just to keep America strong, secure and prosperous for ALL."

Between them both -- I see 16 years of American unity, leadership, growth, security and prosperity. Aaaaaa-men.

Note: California and Nevada -- please do your job and dump Pelosi and Reid [respectively].

Let them mock...

Thousands of community organizers mobilizing over the next two months will send the Republicans packing November 4.
What, exactly, does PRO-LIFE mean to these people who like to trot out their "I'm-more-religious-than-you" heifer dust at every turn?

I have little respect for Catholics or anyone else who can't get beyond their own self-righteousness to see what the Church actually teaches on ALL life issues. I wish to hell they would get a clue that life GOES ON BEYOND THE DELIVERY ROOM.

I really, really hope Biden tears her a new one at their debate -- I have never rooted so hard for public humiliation ever. And whoever said upthread that the gloves are now off, I could not agree more.

And Ms. Palin, please do some research on CCHD.

Palin is the ultimate elitist by slamming the average americans who have devoted their lives and careers to helping thier communities, when the govt. has failed so miserably....

To Palin, the snarling Pittbull, I say---

JESUS WAS A COMMUNITY ORGANIZER---and you are a mean spirited person who has no business in politics, even on the local level!!

GOD SAVE US if these two are elected!!

You know, it just came to me...

John Mccain is a survivor. He survived the great Forrestal Fire, he survived being shot down by an enemy missile, he survived 5 years of torture and returned with his honor intact. He also finds himself in a position where he needs a true believer to complete his political coalition. The selection of Sarah Palin may be divine. McCain was chosen to assist in the great prophecy by opening the door for a true Disciple to be in position for the events to come. Glory be to God!

LOL. You're a little lost if you think he did this politically. He's gone to the Baptist church for 15 YEARS!!!!! Yes he was raised Episcopalian, but since the early 90's he's attended the North Phoneix Baptist Church. Only a fool would think that was a political move to prepare him 10 years in advance. The reason he hasn't been baptized is because the the Baptist Church is rather conservative and he also doesn't want to make it look like a political thing. I mean this blog shows how people will do anything they can to question his judgment. Likely he would get baptized if he weren't running, but he wants to wait and then make that decision.

To Jesus was a community organizer; Pontius Pilate was a governor. .:

Your handle says it all, and says it best. Well done! I will remind others of it whenever I can.

Joel,
Cool Dude!
You just talked your way out of accepting that a lowly woman could be God's annointed, and that JM will see the light, be immersed and thus really saved, and then be our new JB (John the Baptist)!!!!
I love the way you think Bro !!!

Being a fiscal conservative and a social liberal, elections have always presented a dilemma for me. I always feel like I am compromising my core principals on either the fiscal or social side. I have always been able to tolerate the conservative social agenda of the right in exchange for (what I have considered) the more important fiscal issues assuming that an extremist does not take over, and have usually voted Republican during the last two decades.. So I was somewhat relieved when Huckabee lost and McCain took the nomination. I was undecided but leaning towards McCain but that all changed when McCain choose Palin as his running mate. She represents the extreme right – Huckabee in a skirt, if you will. The thought of this person, who is an Evangelical Christian and may support End Of Times philosophy, having access to nuclear launch code is just too scary for me. I’m sorry to say Republican party, you have lost this voter with your choice of VP.

He's utterly devoted to the Baptists, unless Steve Schmidt thinks some other denomination will generate a few extra votes...

"GOD SAVE US if these two are elected!!"

God is busy, so the U.S. Navy will have to save us. I wouldn't be writing this without them. I wouldn't even be. God can help the orphans and the others who really need help. Help yourself and take care of yourself. Government isn't a savior. You sink or you swim, if you remember those childish lessons. Tread water, don't tread on me. People drown in stupidity and want bailed out. Losses into the billions and community organizer to recapitalize the dolts. The union is going to war with its own members to elect Barack. Sounds like they know their own worse enemies. All you need is a mirror.

Waters said-

"Jeremiah Wright's Trinity United Church of Christ, there's no evidence that (Obama) hasn't adopted the core beliefs and practices of that church's denomination."

If true, I find that deeply concerning. Obama's mentor, Pastor Wright, is a disiple of James Cone- as far as you can get from traditional Christian beliefs. Did you read the TUCC website (Pastor Wright's church that Obama and his family attended for twenty years) before it was "cleansed"? If is clearly a "black first and only" racist worldview with a strong allegiance to Africa not America.

"We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

-Commitment to God
-Commitment to the Black Community
-Commitment to the Black Family
-Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
-Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
-Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
-Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
-Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
-Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community
-Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions
-Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
-Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:
-A congregation committed to ADORATION.
-A congregation preaching SALVATION.
-A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
-A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
-A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
-A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
-A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
-A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
-A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
-A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.
http://web.archive.org/web/20060411204951/http:/www.tucc.org/about.htm

---THIS JUST IN----

John McCain finally admits!! "WHAT HAVE I DONE"???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-QevraCQUc

It's about time someone wrote about McCain's church membership after all the hoopla over Obama's church membership. Yes, McCain says he is Baptist but he is not a Baptist, having chosen not to be baptized. Maybe McCain has troubles personally with some of the positions of the SBC, for example, the subservience required of women. Or maybe the denomination's frowning upon adultery has him nervous. Or maybe he thinks saying he is Baptist is all it takes politically. And what do the members of SBC think of this non-baptized candidate claiming to be a Baptist? Now someone needs to expose Palin's Christian Jihad beliefs. Does she really, really think that the war in Iraq is God's war? Or that only those saved will be ready for Judgment Day, which is to come soon? And that the End Time is upon us? All of this Assemblies of God stuff is pretty scary if it is being preached and practiced by the vice president of a nation that, at least until now, separated religion and government.

Christians should consider re reading the Sermon on the Mount, both versions, and from there evaluate what the candidates say they stand for and want to do.

Twas 3 days before Christmas, 2012, and all through the WhiteHouse, not a creature was stirring, they'd all long since been fired for blasphemy. Only President Palin sat alone in the large Oval Office, sitting at her desk pondering all the wonderful accomplishments over the past few years.

Old President McCain had long since passed away, he lasted barely 3 months into his administration before cancer finally overtook him. So much had changed since then in the United Theocracy of America. Her loving supporters cheered wildly as she appointed the nations newest members of the Supreme Court: James Dobson, Pat Buchanan and her own pastor from the Assembly of God church in Wasilla. It took only two weeks to overturn Roe vs. Wade with all 3 new justices, along with Alito, Scalia and Roberts united in it's demise.

The filthy liberals cried out in protest, but to their own dismay, they learned that criticizing Palin's policies was a one way ticket to the new privatized Halliburton built prisons, built on their behalf. This made the 2012 elections SO much easier she chuckled to herself, why hadn't we thought of this before?

This also made it very easy to rewrite the Constitution to fit her agenda. No need for freedom of religion with only ONE state religion - Pentacostal Dominionism. All across the land one could hear the joyous sound of men and women "speaking in tongues". Medicare was abolished, along with Social Security. Faith Healing took it's place, and the stock markets had long since crashed and wiped out the privatized funds.

Why had the markets crashed? The only employment left were $2/hr positions (ha, minimum wage legislation was easy to defeat). A few CEOs were left to manage the corporations that had not already been sold to China. But since nobody could afford to buy anything beyond the basic essentials, the economy was deeply mired in a
depression that made the 1930s look like "the good ol' days".

With a gallon of gas at $140/gallon, few could drive to work anyway. Who would have thought that "Operation Drill, Baby Drill" would take so long? And that so little oil remained within the US (well, the liberals and scientists knew this, but nobody paid them any attention - science had long since been banned). The belated President McCain, even before assuming his post, had voted against all forms of alternative energy and it was too late now to adopt it with energy prices so high. Nobody noticed that he had neglected to follow his campaign promises on this matter. "Drill baby drill" was the rallying cry!

All the offensive books had long sense been purged now that she had the power to do on a massive scale what she started as a mayor in Wasila. No More Harry Potter!, they all rejoiced. The United Theocracy's population initially exploded due to strict laws that called for the execution of all those making less than $1,000,000/year that were convicted of aborting their unwanted pregnancies. However, with no gun control laws, and people starving and freezing to death across the nation, "survival of the fittest" weeded out all but the strongest and wealthiest.

The "Holy War on the Middle East" didn't even require a draft, the choices were simple, starve or enlist and many chose to enlist. Only one thing remained to be done. Her church had taught her all her life that End Times would be a blessing to the whole world and that only Alaska would remain as a final refuge to the True Believers. And now it was time, 12/21/2012 at high noon. With a contented sigh she entered the codes into the system linked to the nation's nuclear arsenal of 150,000 nuclear warheads. Proclaiming "Jesus come on back!", she pressed the button and watched as thousands of missiles across the nation streak into the air as her supporters cried "YEEEEEE HAAAAAA!!! That'll teach em to mess with the good ol' United Theocracy of America!!!"

THE END. DEFINITELY, THE END. THINK BEFORE YOU VOTE.

"Christians should consider re reading the Sermon on the Mount, both versions, and from there evaluate what the candidates say they stand for and want to do."

Good advice. Also- you will know them by their fruits. McCain's record is long and established. I'm still considering Obama's works. He has already disavowed his close relationship with Pastor Wright, Father Pfleger, and Tony Rezco. I hope he comes forward and explains his close relationship with Bill and Bernadette Ayers. He also needs to disavow his friendship with Detroit's Mayor who is going to jail on felony charges.

This cowboy says, what has God done?! I just can't seem to find my beautiful cowgirl. Where has she gone, where could she be? Maybe it's time for an afternoon shoot 'em up. Bang! Bang!
I'll keep looking, for it's a long slow ride. It could get faster and more furious before it all ends. I believe in happy endings.

Happy trails my fellow Americans and fellowess Americans. Keep turning the tables. It's a rocking good time, is it not?

McCain: Baptist or Episcopalian? Is this supposed to be a counter to Obama: Christian or Muslim? (Hint: Obama is neither. He's a Marxist. See if religion was the cocaine of the masses, he would be Christian or Muslim. Wouldn't matter. Blow is blow.)

So, what's your point (or beef?), Mr. Waters?

We know that you don't like McCain, and don't give a damn for Christians. It's old news.

He's whatever will win him the office.

DaTourist wants to know:

"So, what's your point (or beef?), Mr. Waters?"

Like so many Obama devotees- Waters is in a panty twisting frenzy throwing whatever he can get his hands on against McCain/Palin and praying to a god he doesn't believe in that something will stick.

His next post will suggest Palin's daughter Piper is the product of a one night stand with Alf and will demand that an immediate DNA be done on the child.

Posted on September 5, 2008 11:48

spiderman2:
David became king of Israel because of his pure heart. If what I've read about Sarah Palin are all true and her convictions are true, Im sure she will be the first female president of this country.

Among all candidates, she portrays what a true Christian should be. America would be great again as God wanted it to be.

"CHANGE IS COMING"

****************************************
I guess I missed the part in the Christian Bible that says "Blessed are the sarcastic, who take meaningless potshots on national television at noble service like community organization in the ghetto."

Or the part where Jesus endorses the concept of war.

Or the part where the Lord urges his people's leaders to run and hide from the press.

Anyone who has the audacity and blasphemous presumption to declare that a particular political party or candidate is "chosen by God" or is a "true Christian" needs to remember what Abraham Lincoln said about praying that we are on God's side, not the other way around.

And lastly, the last president to truly "walk the talk" when it came to Christianity was Jimmy Carter, and we saw how the "religious right" abused him....

(P.S. Before you respond with any inanity about how George Bush is a "true Christian", you might want to see if you can dig up some scripture ordaining the concept of preemptive war, or explain how "righteous" it is to refer to the Constitution as "just another G--D--m piece of paper!")

Since Mr. Waters is so concerned about if McCain is a baptist; isn't more of the concern, is he and Obama true Christians or for that matter from biblical scripture, are most who claim they are Christians really Christians. For sake of truth, let's examine ourselves:
C.H. Spurgeon once said "Brethren, we shall not adjust our Bible to the age, but the age to the Bible."
Are we not in the days in which the apostle Paul spoke these words: "men shall be lovers of their own selves" (2 Tim. 3:2).
Churches and preachers alike are abandoning their God-called purpose of holding up the mirror of God's Word and graphically revealing to man what he really looks like in the sight of a holy God. The missing message in modern-day preaching is the Biblical doctrine of repentance, where a sinner is convinced and convicted of his exceeding sinfulness and lost condition. Didn’t Christ preach repentance: Mark 1:14-15: The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel/ \
When the word "repent" is used in the Word of God in the context of Biblical salvation, it is referring to a truly God-given, Spirit-led change of heart and mind toward God about sin.
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out ..." (Acts 3:19).
The greatest need for any sinner is have his sins blotted out, but a man will never have the pardon of sin while he is in love with his sin. There must be a hatred of sin, a loathing of it, a turning from it. Repentance is a revolution in dealing with our attitude and view towards sin and righteousness. Repentance is not something one does with his hands, but it is an inward attitude of the soul. Sin must become, in the eyes of the sinner, exceedingly sinful. We are all condemned if we are mere men still in our sinful statew:
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God" (John 3:17-18).
Until a person becomes personally exceedingly sinful in his own eyes, he will never see his need for repentance. Eph.2:1 says man is spiritually dead; Rom.3:10 and Isa.64:6 tells us no one is righteous before a holy God; Rom.3:19 says all stand guilty and condemned before God; Eph.4:18 declares all sinners are separated from God whose hearts and minds are blinded so that they cannot understand God or the things of God.
Man must see himself as a lost, ruined, guilty, desperately wicked sinner without hope or help, in danger of hell. In repentance, a lost sinner not only sees himself as a sinner, but he recognizes the fact that he has sinned against a righteous and holy God. The message t
When one sees himself as he appears before God, he is brought to a place where there is godly sorrow for his sin and hates it altogether. "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of ..." (2 Cor. 7:10).
To hate sin is to love God. In true repentance, there is not only the desire to escape the consequences of sin, but to be rid of sin itself as a thing displeasing to God.
In true repentance, there is conviction, contrition, and conversion as one turns from his sin to Christ for salvation. Salvation is deliverance of a person from his sin, not merely from a sinful environment. Jesus Christ is the Saviour from not only the penalty and punishment of sin, but also the power of sin.
Jesus soundly declared the message in His day: "repent ye, and believe the gospel." Repentance and faith are inseparable and occur simultaneously in a sinner's heart; you cannot have one without the other. The order as given in the Bible is repentance and faith (Mark 1:15; Acts 20:21; 26:20; 2 Tim. 2:25; Heb. 6:1).
Repentance is turning from sin; and faith is turning to Christ. Repentance comes about through the convicting power of the Spirit of God using the Word of God to cause a change of attitude, action, and affection.
Saving faith is trust in and reliance on the Lord Jesus Christ as one's personal Lord and Saviour. Saving faith is believing with your heart; it is coming to Christ, receiving Christ, looking to Christ, calling upon Christ to save your soul.
But repentance without faith is nothing more than remorse or regret. And faith without repentance makes Christ nothing more than a fire escape. There must be a work of repentance and faith upon the sinner's heart before salvation can become a reality. Repentance is caused by the working of the Holy Spirit who takes the Sword of the Spirit and slays the sinner's self-righteousness, self- goodness, self-decency, self-esteem, and causes him to cry out: "God be merciful to me a sinner" (Luke 18:13) and "what must I do to be saved?" (Acts 16:30).
Who is commanded to repent? "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:" (Acts 17:30).
What happens if you don't repent?
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved" (John 3:16-17).
Know may we all consider are we Baptists, Catholics, Pentocoastal. I am a Christ follower not a denomination. That’s the important thing….Is McCain a true Christian, Is Obama a true Christian. Are those who call themselves true Christians: NOT DENOMINATION:

Palin is actually on stage on video for the world to see yet we haven't seen it on tv. This her statement (and I repeat there is video) IN CHURCH (speaking of the troops)

“Our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God,” she said.
Sarah Palin

Well I want to know if she believes this is a Holy War. As I said, This was not a task from God. I know a little about God too. I also know that God doesn't lie. So if He told our "national leaders" (Pres. Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and others) that there were weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq than there would have been Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq. We went to war because there was supposed to be weapons of mass destruction . It is on video. Colen Powell, who because he was embarrassed by this and is no where to be found, made this case before the United Nations. Now the Bible says that satan is the father of all lies. That means that lies orginated from satan.
Now who lied, God or man. In the Bible it says in Titus 1:2 in the NIV version "a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time," The fact is people, including Mrs. Palin would rather believe a lie, believe man, rather than believe God. That's why I advocate keeping politics out of the pulpit. You see, the so-called religious right and religious wrong, and journalist might not read their bible, but I read my Bible and you just can't walk up on stage and tell me anything and think that I would believe it.

JESUS WAS A COMMUNITY ORGANIZER

JESUS WAS A COMMUNITY ORGANIZER

THEREFORE-

OBAMA IS THE MESSIAH. EVERYBODY KNEEL DOWN AND WORSHIP HIM.

John McCain may not be a baptist.. But Sarah Palin is a lifetime member of an occult wing-nut church who's Pastor belives we'll all go to hell if we criticize the President - or the Pastor!

Sarah Palin belives that her gas pipeline is the "Will of God" and so is the Iraq war "doing God's will".

PALIN IS A WACKO APOCOLYPSE-CHURCH MEMBER AND IS TOO DANGEROUS FOR THE WHITEHOUSE!

...Don't forget about her and her husband's membership in the US HATING SECESSIONIST "Alaska First" political party - and the Video taped address she made to them welcoming their delegates to the AKIP party convention in 2008!

WHAT is a sitting Governor doing playing footsie with a US HATING SECESSIONIST POLITICAL PARTY!?!

NickinVA wrote:

McCain: Baptist or Episcopalian? Is this supposed to be a counter to Obama: Christian or Muslim? (Hint: Obama is neither. He's a Marxist. See if religion was the cocaine of the masses, he would be Christian or Muslim. Wouldn't matter. Blow is blow.)
_______________________________________________

no.....just that McCain is a fascist, that's all.

LISTEN CAREFULLY BEFORE YOU VOTE

Barack Obama's Pastor Jeremiah Wright and his Christianity

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUbUBTlmAiA

Think Before You Vote - Good one!!

Best Post On The Blog - hands down. You get the Pulitzer this year for best converage of the Republican Convention - and the only journalist that elected to tell the truth.

Hats off to you......

Why can’t religious people just keep their ideas to themselves? Why the F do I have to hear about Jesus, churches, prayer, and other nonsense every time I watch, read, or listen to a political story. It would the same as having to hear about Batman every time I watch, read, or listen to a political story. Just keep your imaginary friends to yourself.

I check out On Faith on WaPo every once in a while for a few chuckles from some Jesus freak fanatics. BTW, Jesus freaks, Jesus was a community organizer.

1. BHO is NOT a Christian - I don't care what "label" he is trying to wrap himself and that hate factory under - there is NOTHING CHRISTIAN about him, his family or that hateful place/those hateful people.

2. As a REAL life-long and devout Catholic (unlike the Pelosi, Kerry, Kennedy's, Mason LYING SACRILIGIOUS phonies who use the church to try to make real Catholics THINK that they are Catholic) I have been taught thoughout my life in the Church that you are judged mostly by your actions. And there are plenty of phonies who want to label themselves as Catholic but want to tell God and the Church that THEY can do whatever they want and they know better than God. So there are plenty of people that act more like Catholics than many Catholics.

3. Thus as I see it, if John McCain identifies himself as a Baptist and shares those beliefs and acts accordingly, WHO ARE YOU (all of you detracters) - SERIOUSLY??! - to attack him. If (future President) McCain ever starts acting like or associating with scum like BHO, THEN maybe the issue will be open to debate.

This is the church I want to attend:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3CzptgIvcU&eurl=http://www.districtsoul.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=15199

I always thought Southern Baptists believed drinking alcohol to be a sin. So how does that square with McCain's wife's fortune from a beer distributorship?

Or has drinking, gambling and dancing been replaced for Southern Baptists with gays, abortion, and guns?

all this talk about religion and values in the midst of a political campaign shows just how far we have strayed as a people from the tents of the Constitution which guarantees religious freedom and implies, but does not state clearly, that religion should not be used as a litmus test for holding political office.

Yes, ones religion and beliefs do influence how he/she thinks and behaves but when one has to "prove" his/her adherance to a religion as a prerequisite for seeking office, we are getting into dangerous waters.

John McCain's and Sarah Palin's religious beliefs could lead to Enormous consequences
for pro-choice women living in the United States.

John McCain said,
that if elected as President of the United States,"he will fight for you and support you.
But if you're a Pro Choice woman watch out!
John McCain is in favor of a Constitutional amendment to ban all abortions.
Prior to Roe v. Wade, hundreds of thousands of women a year went to back alleys to have abortions. Under a McCain administration, Roe vs. Wade will be overturned, and all the gains of the Pro Choice movement in this country will suffer its greatest setback.

The man is in a long lineage of warriors. His ancestry was resolute with war.
Hence the man was born into war. He runs his campaign as though war is his touchstone to the people!

Born, raised and winding his life through in and about war. He tells his story...

It does not seem to matter to him that the Vietnam War in which he served, was an imperialistic nationalistic blunder to stop communism from taking over the world! The pro war hype of that era would have the nation believe we were in grave danger- "fear" was the guiding light!

I was there as a young boy. I witnessed this abomination of our nation going into that war- “stop the communists, they are taking over the world!” That was the word of the day. "The domino effect will..."

McCain, even to this day feels betrayed by the American peace movement as to why the Vietnam war was lost. This is familiar ground for the war culture that now has manifest itself in the Iraq War!
A war that McCain said we needed and voted for! Yet another war that historically will go down as a political assignation of our constitution and our cultural beliefs! Another huge loss of national equity and our beloved youth all for the political ego and a lack of political wisdom!

Wars are won or lost by the rightness of the participants Mr. McCain!
As our nations history goes we have never lost a war when we were right but now we have lost wars because we were ideologically wrong! Its not just about military strength its about wisdom and justice!

McCains campaign video is sequenced within his life of war.

Service and gratitude of and for his country is based on his war experience.

The video biography then sequences into his career as an AZ. senator.
Twenty-six years of senatorial time are blurred into nothingness!

His voting record parallels the GOP- a 10% difference from the GOP is supposed to define his presidency, and his given name the “Maverick?”
His record cannot be hidden, his ideology is full of contradiction- or flip flops!

President Bush said, “Im the War president, Im the War president!”
It most definitely seems there is another one named John McCain following in the wings!
I truly hope he is not the one!

The Washington Post reports Sarah Palin proclaiming that "... the United States sent troops to fight in the Iraq war on a "task that is from God."

How is it possible that this nut, camouflaged as a Christian, is running for vice president of the United States?

She doesn't even need an opponent. She disqualifies herself, for who can be crazy enough to vote for someone like this?

"The Washington Post reports Sarah Palin proclaiming that "... the United States sent troops to fight in the Iraq war on a "task that is from God."

Remember who wrote this?

"My Fellow Americans:

Last night, when I spoke with you about the fall of Rome, I knew at that moment that troops of the United States and our Allies were crossing the Channel in another and greater operation. It has come to pass with success thus far.

And so, in this poignant hour, I ask you to join with me in prayer:

Almighty God: Our sons, pride of our nation, this day have set upon a mighty endeavor, a struggle to preserve our Republic, our religion, and our civilization, and to set free a suffering humanity.

Lead them straight and true; give strength to their arms, stoutness to their hearts, steadfastness in their faith.

They will need Thy blessings. Their road will be long and hard. For the enemy is strong. He may hurl back our forces. Success may not come with rushing speed, but we shall return again and again; and we know that by Thy grace, and by the righteousness of our cause, our sons will triumph.

They will be sore tried, by night and by day, without rest -- until the victory is won. The darkness will be rent by noise and flame. Men's souls will be shaken with the violences of war.

For these men are lately drawn from the ways of peace. They fight not for the lust of conquest. They fight to end conquest. They fight to liberate. They fight to let justice arise, and tolerance and goodwill among all Thy people. They yearn but for the end of battle, for their return to the haven of home.

Some will never return. Embrace these, Father, and receive them, Thy heroic servants, into Thy kingdom.

And for us at home -- fathers, mothers, children, wives, sisters, and brothers of brave men overseas, whose thoughts and prayers are ever with them -- help us, Almighty God, to rededicate ourselves in renewed faith in Thee in this hour of great sacrifice.

Many people have urged that I call the nation into a single day of special prayer. But because the road is long and the desire is great, I ask that our people devote themselves in a continuance of prayer. As we rise to each new day, and again when each day is spent, let words of prayer be on our lips, invoking Thy help to our efforts.

Give us strength, too -- strength in our daily tasks, to redouble the contributions we make in the physical and the material support of our armed forces.

And let our hearts be stout, to wait out the long travail, to bear sorrows that may come, to impart our courage unto our sons wheresoever they may be.

And, O Lord, give us faith. Give us faith in Thee; faith in our sons; faith in each other; faith in our united crusade. Let not the keeness of our spirit ever be dulled. Let not the impacts of temporary events, of temporal matters of but fleeting moment -- let not these deter us in our unconquerable purpose.

With Thy blessing, we shall prevail over the unholy forces of our enemy. Help us to conquer the apostles of greed and racial arrogances. Lead us to the saving of our country, and with our sister nations into a world unity that will spell a sure peace -- a peace invulnerable to the schemings of unworthy men. And a peace that will let all of men live in freedom, reaping the just rewards of their honest toil.

Thy will be done, Almighty God.

Amen."

Who said this?

"The longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: 'that God governs in the affairs of men.' And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?"

"Man will ultimately be governed by God or by tyrants."

"A nation of well informed men who have been taught to know and prize the rights which God has given them cannot be enslaved. It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins."

To OH YES!:

I don't really see how quoting FDR's heartfelt prayer at D-Day, the great invasion to free Europe, can compare with some frantic right-wing knee jerk prayer that suggests some kind of Christian crusade against the infidel to secure the oil fields. The two wars simply cannot be compared without a dangerous journey into madness.

Yes, I am liberal, but before you accuse me of being a spineless weenie, ya better be prepared for combat. WWII was a just war. Afghanistan is a just war. I am a vet, and wish I had been young enough to re-enlist to go to Afghanistan - that was about attacking a group that had attacked us. But Iraq was about oil and the Shrub's ego.

So now we have St Sarah the Moose Slayer calling for the Great and Holy (right wing) Christian Jihad in Iraq.

Pardon me while I vomit.

Huh? writes
"BHO is NOT a Christian - I don't care what "label" he is trying to wrap himself and that hate factory under - there is NOTHING CHRISTIAN about him, his family or that hateful place/those hateful people"

Senator Obama goes to a Christian church, calls himself a christian and his actions reflect the better parts of the Christian faith. Somehow I bet if Jesus showed up at your church you'd be first in line to kick him out. I have never heard Obama say anything hateful, and I bet you can't back up your false statement.

Anonymous writes
"Senator Obama does not belong to any Church. Is that a matter of concern?"
Well, he's a church going Christian who will no doubt attend some church in DC when he moves into the WH. Personally I don't care what religion people cling to.

RG writes
"I think her point she is trying to make is he is trying to "play christian" to win votes and is not really a practicing christian."

You could truthfully say that about Bush, Cheney, and most politicians who brag about their faith. If Bush were really reflecting the teachings of Jesus, I'd be burning churches.

musing:
"Formal religion has no franchise on belief. McCain is a believer. you do not spend 6 years as a POW being tortured and starved and come out as an atheist or agnostic"

Have to disagree. My father was in WW2, one of the "replacements" they hauled in from officer training school to replace the men who died on D-Day. Nearly every friend he had was killed. He couldn't reconcile Catholic teachings that all his friends were burning in Hell, so for that and other reasons he left the church and religion. I was BLESSED to grow up in a house where religion never came up, and we never had to go to church! We always felt sorry for the poor kids who had to spend Sunday morning in church!

McCain is a Christian, That is what got him through
his hell, of hotel Hilton. And on other thing that
is the most important, he is pro-life, when he meets
his creator, at least he can say, "Lord I did all I
could to protect your little Ones." Can the rest of
us say this when we meet the "Lord."

O'Reilly: I think you were desperately wrong on the surge, and I think you should admit it to the nation that now we have defeated the terrorists in Iraq, and the Al Qaeda came there after we invaded, as you know. We defeated them.

Obama: Right.

O'Reilly: If we didn't, they would have used it as a staging ground. We've also inhibited Iran from controlling the southern part of Iraq by the surge, which you did not support. So why won't you say, "I was right in the beginning. I was wrong about that"?

Obama: If you listen to what I've said, and I'll repeat it right here on this show, I think that there's no doubt that the violence is down. I believe that that is a testimony to the troops that were sent and Gen. Petraeus and Ambassador Crocker. I think that the surge has succeeded in ways that nobody anticipated, by the way, including President Bush and the other supporters. It has gone very well, partly because of the Anbar situation and the Sunni awakening, partly because of the Shia military. Look--

O'Reilly: But if it were up to you, there wouldn't have been a surge.

Obama: Look--

O'Reilly: No, no, no, no.

Obama: No, no, no--

O'Reilly: If it were up to you, there wouldn't have been a surge.

Obama: No, no, no.

O'Reilly: You and Joe Biden, no surge.

Obama: Hold on a second, Bill. If you look at the debate that was taking place, we had gone through five years of mismanagement of this war that I thought was disastrous. And the president wanted to double down and continue on an open-ended policy that did not create the kinds of pressure on the Iraqis to take responsibility and reconcile.

O'Reilly: But it worked. It worked. Come on.

Obama: Bill, what I've said is--I've already said it succeed beyond our wildest dreams.

O'Reilly: Why can't you say, "I was right in the beginning, and I was wrong about the surge"?

Obama: Because there's an underlying problem where what have we done. We have reduced the violence.

O'Reilly: Yes.

Obama: But the Iraqis still haven't taken responsibility, and we still don't have the kind of political reconciliation. We are still spending, Bill, $10 to $12 billion a month.

The surge "succeeded beyond our wildest dreams," yet even with the benefit of hindsight, Obama clings to his view that America should have surrendered. Can we afford a president who is so stubborn and impervious to reality?

"It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins."

This is what scares me about Palin (and McCain for choosing her). Palin believes that man walked the Earth with dinosaurs less than 6,000 years ago, which is one of the tenets of creation science. This kind of stupidity comes from a core of ignorance that reflects not only a lack of learning but an inability to comprehend evidence. Faith doesn't require abandoning reason. It is built on reason. To blindly accept hooey and claim it as an expression of "faith" is troubling in any individual, but very scary in a national candidate. We've just seen what eight years of "faith-based" government without reason is all about. Enough!

Somebody I read about once cautioned against picking up rocks. And our Constitution prohibits religious tests of candidates in Article VI. But there sure is a strong contingent out there that sees an advantage for themselves in promomting a theocracy and/or evaluating/promoting the candidates as if we live in one.

"It is in the region of ignorance that tyranny begins." This is what scares me about Palin (and McCain for choosing her).

Daniel, you may have something. This video taken recently when Palin was Alaska's governor- show the seeds of a real tyrant. She is clearly without compassion for those she rules. You can see fear in these poor Alaskan faces :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKc2FK1HZso

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqswbQBVcEk

Appearing on Friday's "American Morning," Washington Post faith columnist Sally Quinn again attacked the choice of Alaska Governor Sarah Palin as Senator John McCain's vice presidential pick. During her interview with co-host Kiran Chetry, Quinn suggested Palin would not be able to balance her five children along with the duties of the vice presidency and potentially the presidency.

Chetry first asked Quinn if the questions she has raised about Palin, including her ability to be both a mother and a leader, would be questions that she would ask of a man. After firmly answering "yes," Quinn claimed that the "burden of raising children falls on the mother" and said that her questions about Palin are not sexist, they are about whether or not Palin can "do the job."

After bringing up the "country first" theme of the Republican National Convention, Quinn took a jab at McCain's age as well as Palin's ability to put country first as commander in chief: "And I think if you're talking about the commander in chief, and that is what she is likely to be given his age and his health, will she put her country first, or will she put her family first?"

Chetry then asked why Quinn was not raising the same questions about Senator Barack Obama who has two young daughters. In response, the Washington Post writer claimed, "Men go to war, women to go to war, and I think that when they do, when they go away they make a decision to put their country first." After again questioning whether or not Palin would put her country first if she were to become commander in chief, Quinn stated, "I suspect that whoever is commander in chief, if it's Barack Obama, would put his country first over his family." However, Obama never went to war. He never even served in the military. So if Quinn suspects that Obama can put his country first with two small children while never having been to war, why is she apprehensive about Palin who has demonstrated her ability to handle her family while being the chief executive of Alaska?

At the end of the interview, Quinn again questioned Palin's ability to serve because of her special needs child, claiming it's always the women who take time off to care for the child:

I know a lot of women who have special needs children and often times they will take time off. It's almost always the mother who takes the time off. How many times did we hear in this convention, single dads? Did you ever hear anyone talk about single dads? No, they talk about single moms. And the reason is because it's always the moms who are always the ones that take responsibilities in most cases.

To her credit, Chetry mentioned Palin's husband, Todd, and said his support shouldn't be counted out: "Yeah, I mean she does have a big family and she does seem to have the support of her husband as well, which, you know, you can't count that out. You can't count out how hard dads are also working and taking care of their kids."

Previously, Quinn appeared on CBS's "Early Show" and slammed her parenting saying the vice presidential nominee should "rethink her priorities."

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/lyndsi-thomas/2008/09/05/cnn-wapos-quinn-questions-palins-ability-balance-family-vice-presiden

In regard to dinasaurs and human beings walking the Earth at the same time and scientfic inquiry, Sara Palin may have gaps in her understanding which we all have and perhaps she is not so studied on the subject. Life is a long ball game, people can learn things later in life that open their eyes. Perhaps the Good Shepard is still leading her to truths of Faith with Reason. It is not reasonabe to therefore assert that she is on the path to tyranny in such a foregone conclusive way.

This election is on a spiritual plane, so to those who have "eyes to see and ears to hear" it is also not so unreasobale to conclude that many people are looking at Sara for reasons of religous faith because these are the same who wish to preserve God given freedoms more than others. I do not think this has to do with promoting Theocacy as much as preserving God given freedoms.

It is impossible to be a true "Bible believing" Baptist without approaching a very weird mental state, mania, or obsesiion, or worse, I am not sure what. I think most people know what I mean.

The Southern Baptist Church is founded on black slavery in the South, and then thrived on an orchestrated campaign of reaction against the liberation of the black race in the South for more than a hundred years after the Civil War. As an institution, the Southern Baptist Church has blood on its hands, LOTS OF IT!

The Southern Baptist Church is probably the single most toxic and corrossive institution that has ever exited in America.

Of course, in the most recent few generations, they have gradually, gradually, gradully accepted some aspects of modern progressive secularism. They are seeking to "forget" and hope everyone else forgets, without ever facing the ghastly horror of their own heritage and without seeking to reconcile modern ideas to their dark history.

In many Southern Baptists are just as racist today as they have ever been.

Am I being too hard on them? I do not think I am. They are pretty hard on everybody else. They have thisa smug sense of superiority and entitlement, and I think this kind of criticism is just what they need.

It is called "tuff luv" isn't it?

Daniel ITLD,

As you may remember, I am a Christian, but not Baptist. I would like to say that you are being a bit too hard on Southern Baptists.

Reason #1: Jimmy Carter.

Reason #2: All churches in the South supported slavery. Some few in the North as well, but the Northern Baptists were abolitionists, to be sure.

Reason #3: They have come a long way. They ain't perfect, far from it, but who is? Yes,I know their history here in the South - I grew up here. And yes, the prejudice survives, but it survives elsewhere as well.

Reason #4: There are far worse groups. Would you label Spidey as a Southern Baptist?

Arminius - If I recall correctly, both of Jimmy Carter's recent books suggest that the Southern Baptist Convention, has come a long way - in the wrong direction.

NotSoGreatScot:

You may well be right about a retrograde movement of the Southern Baptists. Actually, I seem to remember a few posts on these blogs that support that view. Sad for America. I stand corrected. But Jimmy Carter still stands as a great role model for any true Christian, or any person with compassion and care for others, regardless of belief or lack of it.

The odd thing is that John McCain is the least religious of major contenders for the presidency this year--Obama, Clinton, Romney, Edwards, Hucklebee, etc. In a way he may be the most secularist among them. But he has come to pander on this issue as he has on all others. Once a maverick, now McCain is someone who has prostituted himself to the hard-core religious bigotry in his party, as well as to the neocon and market orthodoxies, and the torture-mongering that constitutes the base of the Republican party and the bulk of the Bush-Cheney legacy. Neither the Republican hard-right nor the American people ought to trust him.

Evidently it's hard to escape history, even for the United States. The Southern Baptists' (and Georgetown's jesuits too) pathological dependance on black skinned slaves is not that much different from today's justification of the Iraq and Afghanistan invasions.

Take Afghanistan, where 36 was the average lifespan before the invasion: Did the US even take that into consideration before striking back?

If an invalid slapped me in the face, I wouldn't just slap him back. I'd ask him why he did it. If he was wrong, I'd try to reason with him. If he was right, I'd reason with myself. I wouldn't just hit back, particularly someone who is already incomparably more vulnerable. What would be so heroic (or even self-defensive) about striking back?

Isn't reasonable dialogue more rational, humane and Christlike than striking back like a 'pitbull with lipstick'.

Indeed, dialogue is precisely what Jesus did when, according to John's gospel he was slapped by the Head priest's guard, after having been arrested.

So where exactly does the hockey mom vp wannabe and her sponsor get their murderously abusive ideas from?

Surely not from Jesus Christ or from the gospels written about him.

I don't see this as a pivotal campaign issue. Lots of Protestants go back and forth. What counts is his Faith in Jesus Christ as Lord, God, and Savior. He is baptized. You can only be baptized ONCE. Look to the man's decency, and quit nitpicking this little stuff.

Why is it such a big deal what Christian denomination he is? Many Protestant Christians change their denomination from time to time. That should not be the issue at all. The most important issue is, can he do the job he is applying for. The rest is secondary.

Anon2, that was how Bill Clinton treated Afghanistan and look what became of the twin towers, Pentagon, etc. If Bush followed your advice, I don't think the whole of Manhattan could still be existing by now. Add to that , Hollywood, SF, Boston, etc. All have one thing in common. They are all liberal and democrats.

Hmmmm, maybe Bin Ladin was a republican and Bush shouldn't have gone after him. Afterall, he is acting like the real Republican ATTACK DOG, literally.

Senator John McCain started to attend the Baptist Church after his marriage to Cindy McCain who happens to be a Baptist.

This is a very COMMON practice among married couples.

So why is this being made such a political issue and portrayed in a way that seems to be some failing on Senator McCain's part?

Senator McCain is a Christian, was baptized and raised in the Episcopalian church. Whether or not he was baptized in the Baptist church he has attended due to his wife is a NON ISSUE.

Senator Obama on the other hand had a Muslim father and step-father, an atheist mom and was an atheist himself until he joined the controversial church of Rev Jeremiah Wright. After attending the church for twenty years he quit only because his pastor betrayed his cause. Senator Obama is not a member of ANY church since then.

Why this big deal about the religion of the candidates one way or another? Over and over and over again?

Why not choose them based on the merit of their policies?

Fair is fair.

Was Senator Obama's conversion political or spiritual?

Not having joined any church while working as a community organizer, after he returned with a degree from Harvard why did Senator Obama choose the church of Rev Jeremiah Wright, who preached a divisive black liberation theology? Is is because Rev Wright had more political clout and more members than any other church in Chicago? Was it to lay the foundation for his political career?

No one will ever find out the answer. It is not necessary.

So now back to real politics, without distraction about anyone's religion....

Hmmmm... It seems to me that McCain continues to harp on the issue of his superior age and experience. Doesn't that make him a presbyterian? ;-)

I belong to a church that believes in full-immersion for anyone old enough to make a rational commitment to Christ. However, I personally do not care whether a person is dunked, sprinkled, or doused with a hose. I do reject infant baptism, a decision that took several years and which culminated in my being publicly baptized 20 years after becoming a Christian.

Note that being baptized did not make me a Christian. That happened in my heart. The water did not save me. I did it out of obedience once I accepted that a baby should not be baptized and that baptism would not be legitimate. But the baptism did "do the trick". That was done when I decided that Christ was my Lord and God.

McCain is in a similar predicament. He evidently still accepts infant baptism, but is comfortable with the rest of baptist doctrine. I attended my church 6 years before baptism. Does that make me a hypocrite or a pseudo-christian? Nonsense.

As to not being a member of his church, understand that this is not something the Bible speaks about. Membership rolls and the like are man-made constructs. They aren't wrong, they just aren't important. My church doesn't even count how many are in the pews. Numbers aren't important. So long as God is pleased with his sermon, that is all my pastor cares about. If members go up, or go down, it doesn't matter so long as he is obedient to the Word.

Religion - the opiate of the masses.

NotSoGreatScot:

Hmmmm... It seems to me that McCain continues to harp on the issue of his superior age and experience. Doesn't that make him a presbyterian? ;-)

September 6, 2008 7:53 AM

__________________________________________

It takes a great Scot to see the truth. I couldn't agree more. :)

About Sally Quinn:
Did anyone think to ask Biden how he was going to work after his wife tragically died given he had two young sons? Of course Gov. Palin has thought through how to balance her parenting responsibilities in relation to her work outside of the home. For some reason, it's always been more acceptable, even for good godly women, to volunteer to scrub toilets at the church, work babysitting other people's children, or work at the local grocery store at nights and one weekends to help support the family than to use their education, leadership and professional skills to nurture and lead their families. Proverbs 31 please!

On McCain, he's not vying for the role of pastor. He was raised an Episcopalian. Very private about faith. Had some challenging situations in POW camp. Years later, here's what I know personally. His adopted daughter went to private Christian high school in Phoenix and went to North Phoenix Baptist in Arizona where Cindy McCain had made a profession of faith and been baptized as well. They attend faithfully when they are in town.
He said in one interview that he has NOT gotten baptized at North Phoenix, a requirement to join, as David has stated, because he DOES NOT want to politicize his church membership.

That puts a little different spin on it.

You know, sometimes in being entirely honest in answering questions for people who like to take and cut and paste and use "soundbites," McCain might just say:

"Well, I was raised Episcopalian, and so I don't want to tick my mother off or be disloyal to my heritage, but I don't want to be disingenuous since I've been going to a going to a Baptist church for nearly 20 years, you could also consider me a Baptist. On the other hand, Baptists require that you get baptized into their fellowship before you are actually a member, and not just an attender, so officially, I guess I'm still an Episcopalian, so call me what you want."

But that's a lot for one soundbite. So he alternates. Sometimes he's an Episcopalian.
That was 2000, I think. Since then, I think he's been more comfortable saying he's a Baptist. That's OK, Sen. McCain, I think Baptists have enough grace to claim you.

RE: "...there's no evidence that [Obama] he hasn't adopted the core beliefs and practices of that church's [Wright's] denomination."

This is the classic red herring of challenging someone to prove a negative. Beyond that rather obvious - and lame - rhetorical tactic, there is, in fact, plenty of evidence that Obama has not adopted the divisive world view of his ex-minister: Read his speeches, study his comments, scrutinize his actions in the Illinois Legislature and the U.S. Senate - you will be hard pressed to find anything that supports the views of Rev. Wright, and plenty to support the opposite view, that Obama always seeks inclusion and consensus, even from political opponents.

What Obama believes is Secularism - the USA's state religion. How can you be so stupid, or perhaps devious, as to pretend to be so unknowing.

Andrew - your comment as regards Sarah Palin's 'gaps in scientific understanding' is exactly the point that has educated folks upset. As an avowed creationist, Palin believes the Earth is 6000 years old, and of course she does not accept evolution as an established fact of science. She is a biblical literalist, in other words.

Now, contrast that with the long established scientific fact that the Eath is 4.5 billion years old, and that the last dinosaur disappeared about 60 million years ago - apparently after the Earth was shocked by a catastrophic event (giant meteor or astroid) that changed the global climate very substantially.

This allowed for the rise of mammals and eventually our ancestors of some 3 million years ago - when the first hominids seem to have appeared (not that they looked anything like us - homo sapiens has been here about 150 thousand years, give or take).

Now there are gaps in our understanding of various transitional stages along the way, because most organic evidence doesn't last forever - actually not long at all.

Anyway, all of this geological and evolutionary history is readily available to any highschool student through various science classes - should we include the creationist point of view along side established science as an alternative possibility? Sarah Palin thinks so -

But there are gaps, and then there are 'gaps'....which are sometimes caused by willful ignorance of established scientific facts because they run counter to deeply held religious beliefs. This could potentially be a real problem in the administration of governmental affairs.

Nominating Mike Huckabee would have placed a Presidential candidate in exactly the same position with republicans, and we notice that Huckabee went down in flames - big time. Huckabee was very likely a better candidate for President than Sarah Palin could ever be.

Anyway, these 'primitive' beliefs are an essential part of Sarah Palin's world view - and she would be expected to act accordingly if in a position of high governmental authority.

Aside from the fact that she has virtually no experience that would prepare her for the office of Vice President, much less President, these religious beliefs that inform her values are not suitable for the administration of a secular democracy, where the concept of the separation of church and state is among the most fundamental principles that serve as the legal and philosophical foundation of this nation.

It is a well known fact that most Christians recognize a baptism that has been done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit....the Holy Trinity...it only has to be done once.

I was raised Baptist and then later around 30, came into full communion with the Roman Catholic Church....all Christians baptized under the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are considered Catholic anyway.....just not in full Communion unless they choose this later. I feel a little Baptist and definitely Roman Catholic....I can understand his sentiment.....you have politicized, of course..

To my friends who read the following: "Aside from the fact that she has virtually no experience that would prepare her for the office of Vice President, much less President, these religious beliefs that inform her values are not suitable for the administration of a secular democracy, where the concept of the separation of church and state is among the most fundamental principles that serve as the legal and philosophical foundation of this nation."

Would you agree with me that the "Founding Fathers" did well with laying the foundation of our nation which was not defined as a "secular democracy," but rather a republic? There is a big difference. I myself think they did an extraordinary job and when you read their bios and autographs, they were not secularist. When we try to superimpose todays philosophical values and changing mores upon the historical record we become ignorant of these truths which are self evident.

Just a thought from a native Angelino living on the West Coast of Arizona.

Come on, we all know that this is no paradox or evasion. Like most Christians, McCain is in practice just a general Christian and doesn't think much about strict points of doctrine. He happened to be baptized Episcopalian; he happens to attend a Baptist church now. I don't think that the point David Waters is making matters to more than a tiny, tiny fraction of voters.

To me the most interesting thing about the article is a reminder that church doctrines are different in terms of theology, which a lot of people forget about. Some people don't even think Episcopalian doctrine "believes" anything! Joke. I know there is Episcopalian doctrine and that it's quite serious. But you know what I mean.

This really has little to do with this article, but if you insist on going on this way....have you not considered that creationism and evolution can coexist....I for one believe that people have come into this world in any number of ways....spirits have interacted with different earthly creatures..like in greek mythology where we have many combinations, and ets have interacted with earthly creatures, there has been an evolution from these, etc. I, also, believe that God created man in His image and preserved and protected that lineage as well documented in the Good Book....In Noah's day....much of this deviation from God's plan was washed away...it came about from the Fall in the Garden...then what he permitted began to flourish and procreate.
In Jesus Christ God took on humanity and made it possible for humans to enter into His kingsom...the door was open for us...we were mere mortals unable to enter on our own...It is adoption by Christ in the gift of the Holy Spirit given to His followers after his Ascension, that all people regardless of lineage, are able to become immortal and abide in God's kingdom. It is really very simple.

It seems to me fair to judge politicians not only by objective means (their voting record and speeches) but also their fidelity to their own professed principles.

By that standard, how is one to judge Senator McCain's stated affiliation both to the Episcopal and Baptist Churches?

He was baptized Episcopalian but says he's a Baptist. But Baptists say only those who are baptized as adults are Baptists. If one is to judge him on doctrinal grounds, Sen. McCain fails the test of membership in the Baptist Church.

Sen. McCain has cast his candidacy with the evangelical right--both in his groveling to Dobson, et. al. and in his selection of Gov. Palin. And those constituents, at least, profess to take doctrinal allegiance very seriously.

Yet McCain has not been "called out" by these constituents on his unsupportable claim to be a Baptist. Why is that?

There is another matter on which to question Sen. McCain's fidelity to professed principles--and that is his (previous) opposition to torture. He repudiated that opposition with his vote in favor of the Bush Administration's bill to free the CIA from the constraints of the Army Manual on interrogation.

While there are sound political reasons to reject Sen. McCain because of his "flip flops" on taxes, offshore drilling and the like, for me the most inescapable and profound reason to vote against Sen. McCain is this dishonorable decision to embrace torture.

McCain is a member of the most traditional denomination in American Christianity. It's called Whatever The Wife Wants. About ninety percent of church-attending white men belong to this denomination.

It is most definitely political. He wants to be President and will do anything to get there.

Anonymous writes
"Not having joined any church while working as a community organizer, after he returned with a degree from Harvard why did Senator Obama choose the church of Rev Jeremiah Wright, who preached a divisive black liberation theology?"

I get the impression you don't know what black liberation theology is.
What is negative about it?
There is no evidence what so ever that Rev. Wright said divisive things beyond a few quotes we have all seen on youtube. Further there is no evidence that Obama was in the church when Rev. Wright said anything divisive, so I'm not sure what your point is.

What is the difference between human and animal--that we have blessed with intellect and rational. How much rational and intellect have been used in religious interpretation, almost zero. This is because we "believe" on what scripture says. This brings to a question, how do we know the life starts after conception? Do we have a proof? NO. We just believe it. And there lie the problem. A believe cannot be questioned. Well! I believe that those who do not use intellect and rational are not only stupid but duffer to start with. One should believe but that believe should be verified by own intellect then only the believe is strong and right otherwise no difference between animal and human

Kathleen...One can easily argue that when one is one with one's wife and she is Baptist, then you are Baptist, also...That's doctrine is it not?

Dalmond - a number of the Founders were Deists, as I'm sure you're aware of. They were thus not Trinitarians, and also believed that God was and should be held separate from the affairs of men.
(thinking particularly of Jefferson, Madison and Franklin).

They were also deeply influenced by the philosophy of the Enlightenment, and the thinking of Descartes, Rousseau, Voltaire, et al. They believed in the clockwork/mechanical universe of Newton, and revered the workings of Nature in much the same way that Einstein was wont to do.

Science clearly came into it's own at during this historical time frame .....a truly evolutionary and global breakthrough in our worldview that America has always supported wholeheartedly - until recently, when ancient religious beliefs re-surfaced as competitors with the scientific view.

The American Deists differed significantly in their 'religious' thinking from the more conventional Christian beliefs of Descartes and Newton. Voltaire was an atheist - most unusual for a Frenchman! And I believe Jefferson was particularly taken with the French. He also authored his own version of the New Testament (e.g. The Jefferson Bible).

For Einstein, God was always a figurative/nominal concept at best. He held that the beliefs of religion made men captive, and controlled their behavior to an inordinate and undesirable degree.

The Founders knew well that religion and government needed to be kept separate for good and obvious reasons - equally true in a democracy and a republic. I know you'll agree......

But you're right that today is not yesterday - and secularism is a more powerful force in modern societies. Perhaps more so in European countries, but it's a growing force in the USA, and will probably be a majority view within a couple of generations - but no worries.... folks will still be free to engage in any religious behavior that they've a mind to. Just not on government time.

Shashi--When an individual becomes spiritually enlightened then those things that are spiritual become mos apparent....the blind begin to see...a very tuned in spirit not only knows that life has begun, but can actually feel and communicate with the spirit that has been called for this conception. There is no way for a spiritually "blind" person to see this...but those of us that see most definitely know what others do no know and we continually pray that one day others will see....it is why we so fervently pray for conversion of hearts so that others will come to know the truth.

Marc Edward- read this carefully and tell me what you would say if everytime it reads black it read white instead. This is racist with a capital R with an allegiance to Africa not America.

From the black liberation theology church Obama and his family attended for over twenty years:

We are a congregation which is Unashamedly Black and Unapologetically Christian... Our roots in the Black religious experience and tradition are deep, lasting and permanent. We are an African people, and remain "true to our native land," the mother continent, the cradle of civilization. God has superintended our pilgrimage through the days of slavery, the days of segregation, and the long night of racism. It is God who gives us the strength and courage to continuously address injustice as a people, and as a congregation. We constantly affirm our trust in God through cultural expression of a Black worship service and ministries which address the Black Community.Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

Commitment to God
Commitment to the Black Community
Commitment to the Black Family
Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community
Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions
Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System.

The Pastor as well as the membership of Trinity United Church of Christ is committed to a 10-point Vision:

A congregation committed to ADORATION.
A congregation preaching SALVATION.
A congregation actively seeking RECONCILIATION.
A congregation with a non-negotiable COMMITMENT TO AFRICA.
A congregation committed to BIBLICAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to CULTURAL EDUCATION.
A congregation committed to the HISTORICAL EDUCATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE IN DIASPORA.
A congregation committed to LIBERATION.
A congregation committed to RESTORATION.
A congregation working towards ECONOMIC PARITY.

http://web.archive.org/web/20060411204951/http:/www.tucc.org/about.htm

Why is it that liberals never ask a man if he can balance family demands with his job?
September 4, 2008. Rudy Giuliani. Former Republican mayor of New York City. Question asked in his nominating speech at the Republican National Convention.

As a voter I want to know which will Sarah Palin put first, her family or her country?
September 5, 2008. Sally Quinn, Partisan Democrat columnist for the Washington Post.
Spoken by her during her appearance on the O’Reilly Factor.

Does anyone detect any sexism here? Is the Washington Post insulting all working women by not disavowing Quinn’s comment? Forget doing anything about this. Her husband and former boss, Ben Bradlee, is the Editor in Chief of the Post.

It would be nice if Obama's church was committed to all of God's children and...
as far as Palin...
motherhood makes her a better diplomat...I say solve it at home first!! and be a better mom and servant while at it..
the family unit is the building block of all of society. The very principles needed for peace in the world are developed within the home....the very solutions I have found for soving problems within the workplace, have come from our interactions at home. The prayers I have for my children..I extend to the children of the world....and so on..
Some men would be better stewards of grace if they took care of family first...maybe they should ask them.

"Is the Washington Post insulting all working women by not disavowing Quinn’s comment? Forget doing anything about this. Her husband and former boss, Ben Bradlee, is the Editor in Chief of the Post."

Carlos- Forget asking WAPO to do anything even slightly fairminded. Check out Eboo Patel's thread. Wahhabis were posting against Palin (suggesting it was her plan to kill McCain by cyanide once she was in office) and successfully influenced some of the feebleminded liberals that read this Forum. The wahabis posted a google link that traced them back to Bulgaria. Nothing has been done and they will most likely show up again. How stupid are the WAPO people?

The Bottom Line here is that John McCain "Lied" and is using these lies to pander to the Evangelican Christian Church.

I am concerned that all of the candidate view the bible as a guide and profess belief that JC was god and created the universe. It seems to be necessary in running for office in the US, that one demonstrate one's belief in superstitous nonsense. The whole religious business in a gigantic scam and unworthy of rational minds. Phony preachers who use the title "Doctor" misrepresent their qualifications. Essentially, a doctor of theology needs to master only one book and read some of the analyses of that book to get to be a "doctor."
This great country is the most religious in the industrial world, but could learn from the Europeans how to minimize the impact of religious baloney on public life.

Readers-

I hope you are asking yourself why Moslems in Bulgaria are pretending to be American and making inciteful posts to the On Faith blog..

think about it think about it think about it

Moslems in Bulgaria are pretending to be American

Maybe there are Bulgarians in America pretending to be Moslems too. This could mean they have problems they don't know about. They aren't fooling us, they are just fooling themselves. I have to go do some wet work, so stay safe.

Posted on September 5, 2008 22:24

cultorous:
The right wing christian fascists have invested too much in the party they've bought and infested to let it go now.

They declared this culture war, they aren't going to give up. Now they have placed one of their finest dominionists a mere drop of cyanide away from the presidency.

I wonder how many of the republican faithful know who the dominionists really are. I wonder how many of you evangelical foot soldiers know that you will go the way of the brown shirts once they have taken control.

The non-religious aren't going to be able to protect our country from these people. If you really care about your country, you will educate yourself on who these people are, and run them out of your party. Is winning the next election but losing your soul worth the trade?

RHONDA- Very interesting! Please do not drag this to spirituality. The simple logic has nothing to do with spirituality. Not only life begins with conception but life present in plant and animal too. How many of us [preachers] think that? Oh! Yes, they eat them. Don't know why? The basic fact is-We believe in what we believe without even thinking rationally. Why GOD has given us intellect?. The world used same intellect to kill each other yet do not use the same to follow his own heart. It is just we ignore it. It is just what is best suitable for us. It is just what satisfy us our pseudo, pre conceived notions.

Your point is accurate that one knows the truth only by their self experience. I am 100 percent agree but my self experience is different from yours. How that make yours superior ? I fail to understand. The"self" separates the one not to impose views on others. I do not have any problem if someone think that they knows the truth by whatever method and but, then, by the notion of self experience, the problem comes when they try to interpret that experience to others. Not only they interpret it but try to impose their interpretation by the name of the religion or GOD. Everyone (including you-may be) think that they know the best so they should tell to other to follow them and I take direct shot on Preachers on all religions. There is the problem. The views are always personal because they originate from self. Imposing them by the name of religions is not only stupidity but a great disrespect to GOD.

With all above, I think all life are beautiful and GOD gift irrespective of we don't know about it. Evil cannot be eliminated unless you assimilate within you. Thats what Jesus told to GOD that GOD forgive those who have done harm to me. The message of pro-life people should be: GOD , forgive these ignorance people who does harm to your beautiful creation. But it seems like they are busy to impose their "views" because they are so called "spiritual" or " self realized".

This is such tiresome drivel. Why don't we hear from animists and Zoroastrians? Where are the spokesmen for vampires, voodoo, and Valhalla? The Post should broaden the scope of this apparently permanent feature to include how to avoid bad luck after you spill salt, break a mirror, walk under a ladder, see a black cat crossing your path, etc., and other widely held superstitions such as lucky lottery numbers and fear of the number 13. In fact, if The Post thinks we're all idiots, why bother with facts anyway?

Keep searching for the truth and it shall come to you...Keep your heart and mind open...and it will come to you...it even may come to you in a spiritual way...very rational...

Talking about church memberships and what is required is very different from one's proclamation of faith, don't you think. For example, there are many Catholics that are not in full communion with the Catholic Church because of divorce, marriage, etc....but they call themselves Catholics because it is what they believe or it is what is in their hearts....Anyway, I'm glas that the Roman Catholic Church acknowledges both of thier baptisms McCain's and his wife....for they are both considered part of the Kingdom regardless of whatever church wants to claim their membership. welc

My personal viewpoint on Black Liberation Theology is that this view is not so much racist per se, but that it speaks to racial self-identity issues and methods of achieving positive self-worth as a major component of one's self-image as an African-American in a dominant white culture. A culure that has a long history of suppressing people of color.

And since church membership is a pivotal component of any black community that I'm familiar with, it stands to reason that this social philosophy would gain significant traction in a religiously oriented environment.

I'm white, and white people have little or no concept of the subtleties of being black in America. On the other hand, black people are very well acquainted with what 'whiteness' means right along with their own 'blackness'.....since they live by necessity in both worlds.

The black perspective is therefore a much broader cultural view as regards society in general. Black Liberation Theology is a naturally emerging development, given all the various factors involved. This is not something that white people need to fear in any way.

What white people need to fear is the other white people that have been leading and would continue to lead this nation of ours. Now that is a real threat to our well-being - white and black alike.

It is fearful if the theology is taught with an attitude of vengance and as far as current threats to our well being....there are Democrats, Republicans and others of all colors that want to take away the sovereignty of this beautiful country of ours.

spiderman2: I don't believe Bill Clinton ever asked the Taliban to sit down and explain their problem with the US. If he did, please provide the reference.

Your subsequent statement as to what would have happened if Clinton or Bush had chosen dialogue first is based on the assumption that the Taliban is intrinsically evil and not capable of a rational dialogue. Isn't it remarkable that they think the same about the US?

Given both sides profess monotheistic religions and that there is only 1 God, theyt are obligated to put their cultural prejudices aside and try to understand the problems they have with each other, and do the utmost to resolve them peacefully in His name.

The Taliban, as I recall, offered to do this after 9-11, but the US did not reciprocate. Unfortunately, it's now over 1 million deaths (many innocently) and 7 years later.

Anonymous 2:

As I understand it, and will willingly be corrected, the US of A was negotiating with the Taliban before 9/11, to get them to cut the production of opium. Apparently we were bribing them to do this. Hypocrisy is alive and well in politics, religion, and international relations.

Whatever you do, Anon 2, beware of Spidey. He has no grasp of what the real world is like.

This is hot off the wires. Profess their Christian faith though they may, BOTH McCain AND Obama are born-once-and-that-was-enough Capitalists, though, arguably, one is more Capitalistic than the other.

"They declared this culture war,"

And America declared war on Japan, after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. Recognizing that one is under attack does not make one the aggressor.

The "Dominionist" bogey man has you shaking in your shoes. This conspiracy of fanatical "Christianists" that want to seize power and force you to live under a Levitical dictatorship is a product of your own delusional imagination.

Historically, fascist movements, (you did say something about brown shirts) made idols of the state and despised and persecuted Christians who wouldn't adore their idol.

Whether against Imperial Rome, the pagan warlords that engulfed western Europe after the fall of the western Roman Empire to usher in the dark ages, or Communists and their Fascist siblings, it was always Christianity that lit the light of liberty.

To answer the subtitle, ....In a word, political.

This may come as a shock to some, but usually 'spiritual' *shows* in some manner not generally compressible to soundbytes.

"As I understand it, and will willingly be corrected, the US of A was negotiating with the Taliban before 9/11, to get them to cut the production of opium. Apparently we were bribing them to do this. Hypocrisy is alive and well in politics, religion, and international relations."

Actually, before 9/11, only 'us libruls' were concerned about the Taliban, and many prominent leaders in America's religious Right were teaming up with these guys to keep condoms out of Africa, and applauding their anti-Communist 'traditional values' while trying to claim Clinton's limited engagement in former Yugoslavia was all a political stunt and closing off any options of saying *boo* to the Taliban.

Actually, the concern about Iraq, too, was, whether or not we could start being a little less draconian about the containment of Saddam, since it was mostly being taken out on his people and the Kurds and we had air supremacy with full international sanction.

And of course the bin Ladens were tight with the Bushes, even if Osama was maybe the 'black sheep' of that Saudi regime family, which was basically the only people that could get a plane flight after they grounded everyone else.

So, well... Yaknow, that was just not 'tough' enough for some people, but if you track the movements of the Christian Fundie leaders and the Taliban ones....

Interesting how it took em a while to get indignant about burkas.

Among other things that make me wonder if I'm the only one in this country with an attention span.

Look out for the Freedom Fries!

Opium remains the foundation of the economy in Afghanistan, such as it is - the opium poppy harvest grows more abundant each year. America is the world's primary user of heroin. Is there a paradox here?

"Is there a paradox here?"

Nope, but I understand there's been a spike in demand for morphine just lately.

The logical thing to do with the opium in Afghanistan is to do what Turkey did some decades ago: legalize it under total control, and sell all of it to be made into medical morphine. Trouble is, apparently the market is rather saturated. Or was recently.

Actually, Arminius, the poppy has a whole cocktail of useful medical compounds in it... Some much more effective than what can be synthesized by pharmaceutical companies...

Only glitch is, you can't *patent* them, so Big Pharma's not interested.

If not for that, we could probably just buy the stuff and call it a Marshall plan. Oops,, too late.

no you dont.