Bishop Deposed as Episcopal Divorce Proceeds

This fight is over a so-called "sin" that is entirely victimless. This fight is over something that Christ himself never once never condemned. This fight is over whether discrimination and hatred has a place in a Christian church or it doesn't.

I say hooray for the divorce. Let the reasonable spouse dump its abusive spouse and move on to a better life. Anything that pushes bigotry to the fringe where it belongs is good for the world.

It is funny to see a church fight over issues of abandonment and true faith when it was founded by syphillitic King Henry VIII who simply wanted a divorce. This church has a wonderful English way of doing things with class without bothering about what the issues are.

Well, the only thing I think, in my unsolicited opinion, about this sort of thing, is that this represents people being divided up according to *opinion* and not dealing with *community.*

Homophobia in whatever guise, of course, already does this, ...simply excluding those found unacceptable from the life of a religious community, or at least forcing a percentage of the population to third-class status.

But as people polarize over issues like this, it only increases the fractiousness.

What happens when, as always happens, more gay people are born to the homophobic churches?

They'll tend to leave.

Not that that's a problem, in my mind, either. The more the homophobes tighten their grasp, the more of the world will slip through their fingers.

The lesson we learn is that "justice" is only for divorced, alcoholic homosexual bishop wannabees. Not for biblically sound, faithful leaders for over 35 years. Three main violations of justice have occurred (along with many minor ones):

First and foremost, abandonment of the communion was the charge for people leaving the Anglican Communion. It required no trial because it is obvious - so and so announces that he is Roman Catholic or Baptist. But Ms Schori has used this charge simply because it is expedient. Even using this inappropriate charge, Ms Schori violated the canons which lay out the precise manner how it is to be carried out:

Secondly, it requires approval of the three most senior bishops to inhibit the said bishop. The senior bishops did not agree but Ms Schori's putsch but she went ahead with the deposition proceedings despite not being able to inhibit.

Thirdly, because of the gravity of the charge, the canon requires a majority of all bishops ELIGIBLE TO VOTE. This includes both sitting and required bishops. There are nearly 300 of these. But they were only 128 bishops at the special (lynching) meeting. So even if it was unanimous, the motion did not carry.

Ms Schori will tolerate anyone except someone who espouses biblically orthodox beliefs. The world's Anglican leaders are condemning her heavy handed, clumsy cleansing of the orthodox.

Correction: "This includes both sitting and RETIRED bishops."

While bishop of Nevada, Ms Schori was dead last in terms of population adjusted growth - shrinking the diocese by 10% in the state that has been the fastest growing for the past 20 years.

The Episcopal denomination was actually holding its own in the late 1990's and early 2000's in contrast to other mainstream ones. Ms Schori and Gene Robinson transformed it to the fastest declining denomination. So very inclusive!

Mr. Waters
in order to properly communicate, it is imperative that we avoid using words with multiple meanings: gay could mean bisexual or homosexual; this is why the Supreme Court Justices never have used in their decisions the word gay. V. Gene Robinson must had multiple sexual relations with is then wife to father two children; he is bisexual. It is more than a matter of principle to use the correct words. It just tells the others that you have the good habit of telling the truth. By leaving his wife, Gene Robinson has showed no respect for the institution of marriage, no matter what the reasons. Bishop Duncan is right in looking down at Gene Robinson.

Gasoline is expensive. I was in advance auto today and a guy came in reeking of the smell of gasoline. Three people in the store comment on it including the store manager. I was so bad that the manager was ready to ask the gut to leave.

Ironically, one of the people in the store was someone that I know, haven’t seen him for a long time but it was nice to see him again. Jim said to me that gut smells like he has been rolling in gasoline, that’s when the manager said he was going to ask the guy to leave because he smelled so bad. The guy in the parking lot said his engine caught fire from a gas leak and that he poured water on it and it didn’t stop the fire, he was in a black truck, and I could recognize both of them. The guy in the truck was talking about burning his wife to death with gasoline. I told him that he would go to jail for murder and that I would be a witness to what he said. He also told me that he has hidden cameras in his house to spy on his wife with microphones and that he put a GPS system on her car so he could track her whereabouts. I told him that he will go to jail for doing these things and he laughed and said I won’t get caught. I said the very ones that think that they are above reproach are the ones that get caught. He said he didn’t care that he had people to do it for him and that they would lie for him.
The guy said “she has to pay for what she did to me.”

CCNL. "The correction beings!"

You mean revenge that is based on hatred, right?

Where do you get that "burnomg someone" is correction? It is called murder.

oh jesus maria please who wants to belong to any homophobic hokus pokus religion?? it shows us once again that religion poisons everything it touches! you may be much happier without this scam.

What would Jesus do? He would love (and continues to love) Bishop Robinson. May these folks who disdain and deride their fellow parishoners, whom God created and loves, but are not like them, see the simple and pure love for all of us that Jesus taught.

I remember back in the days of Falwell's damning of homosexuals and saying that AIDs was God's punishment, going to the Good Friday Stations of the Cross service at my Episcopal Church in the south and being greeted by a sign on the door to the Church: "AIDs and HIV victims welcome here." That is the Episcopal Church I love.

To A Christian Episcopalian:

That is the same Episcopal Church that I know and love. And also in the South! Let's continue to walk the walk. God bless.

To ROBROY
While I respect your knowledge of the rules and Canon of the Church, "Ms Schori" is still the Presiding Bishop of our church and deserves to be addressed as such. You can say what you will but there still needs to be respect of the position as well as the Church.

To all who say that those who don't condone homosexuality are "bigoted" that would be true but only if something else larger were not true as well.

I spent thirty years in the gay community. I came back to the Church earlier this year. The gay community will never, ever tell you what "gay" life is really like. It is overwhelmingly filled with men and women with serious psychological damage. It is filled with men with sexual addictions and real ol' fashioned perverts. And these guys are PROUD to be perverts. They'll tell you they are both perverts and proud to be perverts.

Don't ever believe one single word from a gay man in a public setting like this. They never will tell you what it's really like. Heck, I used to be the same way. All this talk about a "loving, stable, same-sex relationship" is just talk, or at best an illusion that they still believe is possible.

If anyone has the stomach for it, look up any number of gay chat sites and go on there if you dare. Or pick up any gay newspaper and read the classifieds or ads in the back. That's the easiest way to find out what gay life is really like.

God would not lie to us. The Bible was written so that people would be happy. And a lifestyle as downright evil as homosexuality is not going to make anyone happy in the long run.

We're living in the Dark Ages here and so things are reversed. Up is down, right is wrong, and wrong is right. But I thank God that his Church on earth has not given up preaching the truth. If it were not for the Church, I would still be lost.

To let homosexuals continue to live their sin (my sin, our sin) is not love and its not freedom. Yes, it's hard to live chaste, but every time I fall I realize how bad homosexuality is.

And the Episcopals are a dead group. Earlier this week I was asked to attend a service at the National Cathedral. Besides my friend, there were only six people in this place, a place that seats over 3,000 people.

I'll say that again... there were only six people in a place that seats 3,000. That is what happens when you distort the Word of God, the Spirit leaves it, and no one comes anymore. That so-called Cathedral can't even pay its bills anymore. Gay people and straight people who support such nonsense may praise the place, but they don't get up off their butts to come there, that's for sure. And why would they? It's a very nice show, but it's empty of God. Their absence proves my point.

That same morning I went to Mass at my parish at the early hour of 6:30 AM and there were over seventy people there, and this is a very small parish.

Peace in Christ!

The Episcopal/Anglican Church was founded on the premise of King Henry VIII wanting a divorce . . . a selfish act by a selfish man. This move split the church and since then, the Episcopal church has been one of "anything" goes. Scripture and truth were left behind when the Episcopal church was formed. They've gone too far down the road to be reconciled with any church or truth at this point.

"Traditional". You state this in your own post: "Don't ever believe one single word from a gay man in a public setting like this." So I will not believe a word you say. You are a gay man or gay woman if you spent 30 years in the gay community. Of course you didn't really spend that many years in the gay community because you obviously don't know any gay people. None that I know have any psychological damage, serious or not. You show yourself to have quite serious psychological damage in that you have so much self hate that you insist all gay men and women are like you. They aren't. They are a very diverse group of people, which of course you would know if you were actually part of that community.

"Traditional". You state this in your own post: "Don't ever believe one single word from a gay man in a public setting like this." So I will not believe a word you say. You are a gay man or gay woman if you spent 30 years in the gay community. Of course you didn't really spend that many years in the gay community because you obviously don't know any gay people. None that I know have any psychological damage, serious or not. You show yourself to have quite serious psychological damage in that you have so much self hate that you insist all gay men and women are like you. They aren't. They are a very diverse group of people, which of course you would know if you were actually part of that community.

greenmansf,

You don't have to believe me.

But are you saying that the Word of God is a liar too? This is what's at the heart of the matter here. Does the Word of God lie to us? If the Word of God is wrong about homosexuality, then what else is it wrong about?

The challenge is still out there however. Does anyone want to go on a gay chat site? Anyone want to visit a gay bar late at night? Anyone want to visit any number of public bathrooms anywhere in the world?

And note this person's personal attacks on me. I never was insulted so much, or afraid for me own safety when I proclaimed homosexuality as when I fled from it.

And note how my very existence is denied. I've been told so many times that I never really was gay, or that I'm really a straight person whose made this all up. And of course, that I'm "self-hating", or "closeted."

I will say it again. I lived as a "gay" man for over thirty years and I was as out as anyone could be. But I eventually saw through the propaganda, lies and deceptions.

Homosexuality destroys everything it touches. Just look at the Episcopals or any other group that changes the Word of God.

Unity is desired by all true Christians but that unity must be grounded in a common understanding and commitment to orthodoxy. Unity grounded in heresy and a repudiation of the word of God is a false unity that will surely lead to destruction. I am not an episcopalian but I have watched with a great deal of distress as the leadership and some of the congregants of that once great body have taken it down the path of becoming a feel-good organization divorced from its Christian roots. It is endager of becoming the equivalent of the YMCA -- a social organization with Christian roots but a decidely secular mission.

C Yates, I doubt that your fears about the church's direction will come to pass, but I sure hope they do!

Repudiation of both Leviticus (which no Christian follows faithfully anyway) and the angry, prudish lectures of Paul (who never met Jesus, unless you include his brief roadside hallucination) would be GREAT progress!

Orthodox Heathen, all we can know of God is what He revealed to us in his word. That includes the "angry, prudish" letters of Paul. We have neither the right nor the understanding to start editing out parts we don't like. One of the gifts God has given us is the need to conform our lives to scripture, not scripture to our lives.

Hear Ye, Hear Ye, O' "PELEG-arian Nationals from-abroad, un-like us Americ -Made, "JO{KTAN-Natioanlis Party 2013+:

- Note: Them PELEG Nationals, [HUE{MATES kind] , not us JO{KTAN Natioanlis [Human-unkinds], and via their EVANGELiCALS & their CATHOLICS 2ndary's, jealous agents, Leaderships with DiViNity Degress, as if Weapons, et al, of U.S.A., tried to discredit Us, Destroy [OUR literature etc..] & make Disappear the "Hol{i}-Cosmic-Feelers-Faith" [Ho-Co-Fe-Fa] SYSTEM(), A Belief, like a Religion, yet Better, and

hath been collecting & keeping Secret this conspiracy in America, and recently, on-line , Posted False Info or injected such negatives, peppered, such in previous, but decent Internet postings but later Cannabilized by then PELEGians Own, on-line now, like the Airwaves in Order To CONTROL & push their (not O.U.R.) JESUS, or MOSES, or MUHAMMAD, or VYASA or GAUTAMA, CONFUCIS etv al (not O.U.R.)s! ; But

a Prophecy, where "We [Apocalyptarians, not Pre-apocalyptarians] Worship 'TRUTH' (opposite of 'MYTH'-illogicals), and Not via any selfish "god(s) Chosen People" thinking, no longer think like them PELEGians, aka 'NiCOLAiTAN(s), but , Instead, WE [JO{KTANian} are Immortal & Uniquely aware of "O.U.R.-TRANS{FiNiTY" a REALiTY in O.ne U.niversal R.eligious Truth (opposite of MYTH) , So,

If YE (you & World) realy realy believeth that ye & Family & Friends (all) was all Born (not US) , according to Ye (not OUR) Pre-apocalyptic Jealous Abram "Drunkin Racist Noah Storry's, or the Jealous Vedic War making Krishna & Arjuna Stories (et al); THEN

ye are " B O L L i X E D", and O.U.R. job is to "Un-Bollix' ye all, on Hol{i}, cosmic Nebule-Built Earth(s), not man made Books, or their Songs & or Storys! Please

Become a "APOCALYPT-ARiAN National on OUR Earth(s), no longer PRE-APOCALYPTARian Slave of Hell/Between/Heavens World(s) thinking! Note: there is a night & day difference between a Apocalyptarian Scientist, Teacher, Jurist etc.., and a night & day Difference between YE Pre-Apocalyptarian Scientist?, Lawyers, Teachers, Wives, Husbands, children… Hence: Vote: SiNGULARiTY of ALL, Every & Any 3+-Major Faith/Beliefs/Religions via their (not O.U.R.) Tenach/Bible(s), Quran/Koran(s), Gita/Kangyur(s), or Tripitaka/Scruti(s)…

Behold: Brethrens & Sisters; To become an Apocalyptarian , one must UNiTE (JO{KTANiZE} , not DiViDE (PELEGiZE) the Earths 3+major Religion SYSTEM(s) into ONE System()!, Thus forever Eliminate Jealousy of Religion(s), competing for a name for their man-made ‘god’ INSTEAD OF our innate “G-D” via the Hol{i}-Cosmic “O.U.,R.-B.O.T..”

We , APOCALYP-ARiAN Nationalis, not Pre-Apocalyptic MEME's, of Space-Shipp Earth(s), Magnify, Uphold & Make Honorable, instead;

The the Real {MANNA}, the Real, {UMMAH}, the Real {KARMA} Prophecy, via the Hol{i}-Cosmic-Made: "O.U.R.-B.O.T.", aka

thee "O.ne U.niversal R.eligion, B.ook O.f T.rans{finity [our Reality on a Holy Cosmic, Immortal, Move].

Like From Tadpole to Frog, and From Caterpillar to Butterfly We Go'th! Same as saying: "Once "i" was Lost, but now "i" hath been Found!"

Yes! HALLALUYA! Yea!

A "SiNGULARiTY", not "PLURALiTY" [of ALL, Every & Any Pre-Apocalyptic Faiths System(s) via their ‘iNFiXUS-BOOKS‘ ] who's 'TiME [Our 'TEMPERATURE' , not Clock time nor Space-time thinking] is Cometh already! Pleaza, Do-not Be in DENiAL to self nor others and or Loved ones; especially kids!

Please Thank our Father’s & Prophet (of Many) the “O.U.R. [O.ne U.niversal R.eligion] Founder & Faither, [DR.] Albert Einstein [pbuh et al, a JO{KTANian , not a PELEGian] whom Gaveth Us APOCALYPT-ARiAN(s), the “QUANTUM-ENTANGLEMENT” & the “RELATiViTY” new Song & Stories, aka the NEW-Philosophy , that Prophetically Ariseth & thus cometh from all our Oldie’s, but some Goody’s! And simultaneously

Thank our B.O.T. Fathers, Founder & Prophet (of many) , [DR.] Harry “Sh{iloh” Theriault “ [pbuh et al] of the our “B.O.T.” [B.ook O.f T.ran{Finity] , of whom “I” mentioned, exclusively here on WASHiNGTON POST (WAPO) since Feb/March-2007! But whom Jealously Deleted many of the EC{LAT-ARiAN’s SOFF-ON, aka OUR Gospel {Works} , so to spaketh TRUTH (opposite of MYTH Systems!)!

iMPORTANTANT: The “NICOLAiTAN(s)”, aka Enemies of the EKLAHT-ARiAN Movement, in America & elsewhere, mentioned above Label Us {aka APOCALYPT-ARiAN Proletarian Nationals , aka HUE{mate‘s, aka EC{Lat-i-On‘s, not Off’s.. as

“ Anti-Judeo-Ju“, anti “Judeo-Christ“, “Anti-Judeo-Islamic“, anti “Judeo-Hindu“, anti “Judeo-Buddhista “et c.. ScHAME Pre-Apocalyptarian Natioanlis‘s, a Cryin ScHAME! Ye Pre-Apocalyptic hath “Pre-Apocalyptic SiNdrome” & hath “Religio Jealousy Psychosis” & or acute “Split Minded Thinking” with bouts of “Synergetic-less Double Standards Neurosis!“ Behaviors & Symptoms tantamount to “Crimes Against HUMANiTY!}

PS: YE (you & World) Proud-PELEGiAN Nationalis, , Cannot (NO/Zero) ever stop the Prophecy of the JO{KTAN-ian Nationalis , aka Auto-Matic Citizenz/Denizens of Holy Cosmic NEBULA-Built , not any man-made biblical, S.pace-S.hip Earth(s) , of Many,;

No More (less) PELEGian Bible/Tenach(s)!
No More (less) PELEGian Quran/Koran(s)!
No More (less) Pelegian GiTa/Tripitaka(s) !
No More (less) Scruti(s) etc..! GOOD RiDDENCE\ YO!

H E L O: “O.U.R.-B.O.T.”! A KAHTAN, aka A JO{KTAN-ian Prophecy who‘s timeth is prophetically cometh & no-More (less) PELEGiAN Eberu’s Monopolizing (man-Made, not innate-made) religio , Song & Storys SYSTEMS, all hassling over a NAME FOR ‘G-D‘()! (not ye ‘god‘(s)!

Praise the "Hol{i}-No-Wo-Men! [O.U.R. G-D (not ye god) is Neither a HE/Him/His. Nor is "IT" a She/Her. O.U.R. G-d is an "IT", being "iTESELF", in and of Us-All, via Animates + Inanimate! Never again say, "AMEN"-ra or "AMON'-Re or "AMEEN" , thanking a 1/2 Bull & Half Human-unkinds; not HUE{MATE-Kinds, like US "JO{KTAN" Nationalis! aka spelled "KAHTAN" Eberu's!

Yes; We are Together Forever W/"SOURCE-ONE" (Eponymous "EKLAHT + "i" = LiFE/Photons awareness) A "NEW-SONG" cometh from ALL our "Old-Songs & Storys! Note: As Student of EKLAHTi, that We never Graduate!

imagine; "The Religion of Everything, before the Science of Everything?" Well, "IT"s HERE HUE{Mates!

WELCOME To Apocalyptic Holy Cosmic NEBULA-BUiLT S.pace S.hip Earth(s), not via Pre-Apocalyptic Bible/Tenach(s) not Quran/Koran(s) not Gita/Tripitaka(s), all Shamefully competing & hassling for a NAME FOR their (not O.U.R.) god, instead of O.U.R. G-D! Soo,

Howdy HUE{MATES, (not Humans anymore), aka where each intellectual is an Automatic Citizens & Denizens, on his/her Space-Ship GEOiD(s), Not Tenach/Bible(s), not Quran/Koran(s), not Gita/Tripitaka(s)..!

Note: ALL such SYSTEM(s), are in fact iMPORTED 'Man-Made' [Religio] systems; Not 'innate-Made' In Americ, nor Prophesied here]. Soo sing;

Goodbye VATiCAN/CANTERBURY/HELLENiCS-Heterodox‘s! [Rabbi JEZEUS Judeo-Christ’s lovers]
Goodbye MECCA! {"Trader MUHAMMADzues Judeo-Islamica Lovers”}
Goodbye JERUSALEM! { Rabbi MOZEUS Lovers}
Goodbye LAHASA/TiBET; KATMANDU/Nepal! {Prince GAUTAMA Zeus , LAMMA zeus.. Lovers)
Goodbye DELHi etc.. {Scribe VYASAzeus Lovers}.
Goodbye Mother of Harlots, PAGANs, Wiccans, Witches, Shamans, Voodooists; {SuperStupidStitious}.

GOOD RIDDENCE!

IMPORTANT ‘Revelation’ (opposite of Secret as in Hiding “{MANNA} From Heavens“, or depriving the “Holy {"UMMAH”} or the “Holy {KARMA”} etc.., for UNBOLLiXing Purposes!

REMEMBER & Never Forget ; That All above , are all in Fact, imported: Zero Made-In-America Faith(s) , hassling over a NAME FOR Their (god), not O.U.R. innate G-d; Hence they (Pre-Apocalyptarians, aka PELEGin folks) are not prophesied here, in sweet sweet U.S. of A.’s et al!.

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HARK! Good Tidings; We, American EKLAHT-i-ON(s) , Endorse OBAMA/BiDEN-Team! Vote/Voto YEA!

Vote-The-Future!

Gather-Ye-MEMETiC’s on Hol{i} Space-Ship EARTH, aka GAiA, aka GEOiD, aka TELLUSng something.

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...../____________\.................... U.S.A JO{KTAN-Party, 2013+, A Prophecy Whose time is Come!
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--- BEHOLD; The Tikkun, Zilzal, Bhagavadia, Rapture! YE PELEG-ians can Run, but can't hide'th

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--- Shalom, Slaam, Paz, Mir, Ahimsa, Zinghu, Peace…

Please help US Celebrate “PEACE-DAY“ Today. the U.N.'s UNESCO sponsored http://iya2009.org/

Thanks!,

Gracia! Shookron! Shookria! Todar, CzeeZcee...

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Be sure to visit the Authors of "THE BiBLE OF THE FUTURE". A Prophecy whose TiME is Cometh!

By: http:////.......({..J..}).......({..O..}).......({..Z..}).......({...E.}).......({..V..}).......({..Z..})........dot...... US

I am new to these comments and do not always understand the progression and who is writing what. There are a few comments that I would like to challenge, hopefully with some intelligence and some compassion.

“The gay community will never, ever tell you what "gay" life is really like.” I am not so sure they never did nor never will tell you what gay life is like. I don’t know that much about the lifestyle but I do know that my brother was gay and committed to a happier and longer union with his partner than I was with my spouse. I may have been amiss but I don’t ever recall asking him what it was like; the fact that he never shared its description with me may have been my bad, not his.

“It (gay lifestyle) is filled with men with sexual addictions and real ol' fashioned perverts.” I challenge the word “filled” because that means all gay men are sex addicts and are perverted. If my brother had been a sex addict (and lucky him) he never demonstrated it when he and his partner stayed in our home and he definitely did not demonstrate his addiction when we stayed in his home. As for his being a pervert, we sent our young children to vacation with him and his partner and they never returned with horror stories of sexual perversion. I may have been amiss in not asking them how and how often my brother molested them so that is my bad, not his.

“They'll tell you they are both perverts and proud to be perverts.” Neither my brother nor his partner told me they were perverts much less claimed to be proud of it. Here again, I may have been amiss in not asking him how proud he was to be a pervert so that is my bad, not his.

"I lived as a ‘gay’ man for over thirty years and I was as out as anyone could be. But I eventually saw through the propaganda, lies and deceptions.” In “living as an” anything it implies that a person was making believe something that really wasn’t there. “I lived as a happily married man.” I don’t know where the propaganda comes in but that statement alone sounds deceitful and may even be a lie. I may have been amiss in not asking my brother if he was being deceitful or telling me a lie but then that too is my bad, not his.

“Homosexuality destroys everything it touches.” Again, I wish to challenge the absolute “everything.” Had my brother’s homosexuality” destroyed everything he touched then my three (now) adult children would all be destroyed. They loved their Uncle dearly and were absolutely heartbroken ten years ago when he died. (Before you say he died of aids he died of our family’s dreaded genetic heart disease.) For years my brother Carl had been very active and loving in his New York Presbyterian church and to this day this homosexual who “destroyed everything he touched” is mourned and missed in that Christian community. I was never amiss in telling him how much I loved him and he never stopped loving me.

C Yates,

It won't shock you that I disagree that the "need to conform our lives to scripture" is a gift. But even if it were, are you telling me you don't edit out the parts you don't like?

Do you believe a man who has sex with his wife during her period should be put to death? If not, you are editing out parts of the Old Testament. Do you believe it is shameful for women to speak in church? If so, you are editing out parts of the New Testament. There are, of course, MANY other examples of decrees in the Bible that no reasonable person follows today. That's the inevitable nature of a document written by men in ancient times.

20,000 denominations! Perhaps the rationale leading to the Protestant Reformation should be re-examined in light of the fragmentation which has resulted. St. Paul asked "Was Christ divided?" He said "We are all one body in Christ". What is described in the main article does not fit that model.

Ms. Barnes,

You said it yourself... you never looked that deeply into the homosexual world. You never asked. You never asked what it's really like.

But you still have an opportunity to do that now. Take a look at the Washington Blade... look at the all the ads for male prostitutes, strippers, drug and alcohol therapy, therapy for depression, therapy for sex addiction. Take a look at the personal ads for random sex. Go on line, try to find a gay site that isn't 100% devoted to sex.

As for your brother not corrupting your kids... I said that homosexuality destroys what it touches, not that homosexuals destroy what they touch.

The "gay" activists have done an incredible job at brainwashing people. I know given all the saintly images of gay men out there that many will REFUSE to believe that I was an out and open gay man for thirty years but grew sick of it. But it's true. I used to do pro-gay radio and TV shows, wrote articles in the newspaper and as recent as four years ago was pushing a friend to come out.

What can't be denied is that gay men have a life expectancy of somewhere in the mid-40's, that they are much more prone to alcohol and drug abuse, depression, suicide, promiscuity, pedophilia, and all sorts of sexual addictions. If this were caused by the evils of society, then it would be getting better, but it's not.

As you yourself said, you knew one or two homosexuals in situations where they wouldn't bring up what the gay world is like. Do you have any idea that most of these "committed" couples "play" on the side? Do you know for a fact that they didn't? The only couple who I knew who were monogamous were ones that were so old that they had given up. Even read what Andrew Sullivan says about this. He says that gay people don't want monogamy, but a less than total promiscuous sort of open relationship. As you said, you didn't ask, and this is a wise choice when it comes to homosexuals. Believe me, you don't want to know. You've got the internet. Google some words like "cruising", or "cruising spots." Or look at what happens in these "gay pride" parades, which are freak shows of leather men, cross-dressing, and public sex. I went to many, and I never saw anything to be proud of.

I stand by my thirty years of experience compared to your limited, blinders-on, "I don't want to ask" story.

As for the Presbyterian group, they are as spiritual dead as the Episcopals. I hear they now want to get rid of the concept of adultery all together, for straight people as well as gay people. This is what I mean by homosexuality killing everything it touches. The Presbyterian group is dying off too.

You cannot get around it. Homosexuality is condemn by both the old and new testament.

Oh, and as for that tired old line about the old testament laws like the dietary and cleanliness laws, anyone who still cites them is showing their total ignorance of Christianity. Jesus himself suspended the dietary and cleanliness laws while still maintaining the truth of the moral laws. St. Paul elaborated on this at length. Christians are freed of the Mosaic laws, but still are bound by God's moral teachings. If someone doesn't know this, they really have no knowledge of Christianity. I mean, this is Christianity 101, it's not some novel, hidden treatise.

In other words, we can eat shrimp, and not worry where a menstruating woman has sat. But we still cannot commit murder or adultery. I really am surprised that this keeps coming up.

As far as welcoming in gay people, or people with AIDS, any real Christian will welcome in all people, as we all are sinners. But it's not Christian to condone a sin that leads to such bad consequences in a person's life and separates the person from God.

I thank God every moment I can to praise him for forgiving me and for healing me. If God can do this for an old sinner like me, he can do it for anyone. That's my story and I am bound to tell it.

,

Good riddance to Duncan the Heritic.

He and all of his fellow bigots can burn in hell together !!!!!!!!!!!!

,

This last brief comment sums up the homosexual world completely.

Anyone who dares to oppose the false god of homosexuality is a "bigot."

So then, is St. Paul a bigot? Do we then throw out all the Bibles and replace them?

St. Paul was beyond right when he said in his letter to the Romans that homosexuality is a form of pagan idolatry:

"For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures."

"Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."

"For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error."

"And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them."

I have seen all of this with my own eyes. And heaven help anyone what dares to blaspheme against the pagan idol of homosexuality. To do so is to commit the one sin that homosexual still know.

Romans 1 is the modern world summed up in a few paragraphs. Homosexuality is just the natural, or unnatural consequence of the road we've been on for a few generations. It starts with adultery, contraception, promiscuity and ends up with abortion, homosexuality and the culture of death that Pope John Paul II so courageously preached on.

By the way, is Mother Theresa also a bigot? She was against homosexuality too?

It just shows that some Episcopalians don't believe or accept that samesex fellatio is a Holy Sacrament, as contended by New Hampshire's Gay Bishop V. Gene Robinson.

God always save the remnant of the faithful, even as he destroys the hardened Sodomites who glory in their own sinfulness.

Episcopalians have alwasys been more educated and more liberal. More thougtful than the the baptists and methodists and even presbyeterians.

Why did the pentacostal, holy roller, bible thumber Duncan not just join one of them.

His own background is tragic, and his estimation of any subject always angry and confrontational with mealy mouthed words surrounding the anger.

And of course the Pittsburgh area is one of the dumbest, right wing uneducated points around.
Add a really right wing divinity school producing more of the same, and you got this mess. And a mess it is/was.

Traditional,

If you're going to quote from Romans 1, don't neglect the beginning of Romans 2:

"Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things."

Please let's not trash the city of Pittsburgh and the Pittsburgh area. Pittsburgh is one of the most progressive areas of Pennsylvania.

I was a member of the Diocese of Pittsburgh for much of my life. I saw a few people, over time, grab control of the diocese and shove it to the right. For many Episcopalians this has been an extremely painful process and a great disappointment.

Many ministers who oppose Duncan are terrified to speak out in fear of loosing their jobs. Many traditional (Moderate & Liberal Episcopalians) have just given up and left the church or have found other less radical churches.

Trinity Episcopal School for Ministry and a very few large churches in the diocese are the origin of the problem. As TESM continues to graduate new ministers this right wing movement will spread across the rest of the church.

Hopefully it won't happen in your diocese.

First, I thought these contributions were not supposed to be personal yet a Mr. Traditional addressed his response to me personally. OK, so I do not understand the meaning of “personal” but then English was not my mother tongue. It may take me a few more years before I can achieve Traditional’s eloquence. I make no pretense that I am anywhere near his higher level of communications skill.

I was accused of the following: “You said it yourself... you never looked that deeply into the homosexual world. You never asked. You never asked what it's really like.” What I did write was “I may have been amiss but I don’t ever recall asking him (my brother) what it was like;” It was a giant leap to tell Post readers that Ms. Barnes “never looked that deeply into the homosexual world.” I hope Traditional will have traditional ethics and retract the false accusation.

As for never asking what it’s really like, I know Yankee Stadium is holding its last ballgame this evening but I never did ask how they made their hotdogs. When did you, Traditional? Another thing, I admit never asking was about the configuration of the infrastructure beneath Washington’s Pennsylvania Avenue. When did you, Traditional? If I ever get the chance to ask her though, I will ask Sarah Palin how to field dress a moose. I bet you know, Traditional? I am no expert on St. Paul but I bet he never asked those three questions, did he, Traditional?

I am baffled as to why a former homosexual wants this married woman to “look at the all the ads for male prostitutes, strippers, drug and alcohol therapy, therapy for depression, therapy for sex addiction. Take a look at the personal ads for random sex. Go on line, try to find a gay site that isn't 100% devoted to sex.” Are you still promoting the homosexual lifestyle, Traditional? From your reformed lifestyle, Traditional, I would think you were more into pornography of women but then once a deceitful pedophile always a deceitful pedophile? I don’t know enough about you except for what you have already written.

Traditional “said that homosexuality destroys what it touches, not that homosexuals destroy what they touch.” That is confusing because of my language disadvantage but the way I understood you, perverts, homosexual or heterosexual, ordained or lay, destroy what they touch. That NBC program to catch a predator always seemed to have men, many married, who wanted to have sex with the underage female decoy. I never saw a woman fall into the trap but I admit I did not watch the program religiously.

Traditional, you twice boasted of your 30 years living as a gay man. By your own words you were a deceitful pervert and you lied. You said gays like you are proud to be perverts. Maybe I should ask what in there made you so proud, sir, for thirty years? What amends have you made to all those children you perverted and others you enticed into becoming homosexual? I take you at your word that you were gay not that it really impacts my life any.

I would love to keep on here but the rest of what you wrote applies to my heterosexual Catholic School classmates, you know, the “alcohol and drug abuse, depression, suicide, promiscuity, pedophilia, and all sorts of sexual addictions. If this were caused by the evils of society, then it would be getting better, but it's not.”

Traditional continued: “As you yourself said, you knew one or two homosexuals in situations where they wouldn't bring up what the gay world is like. Do you have any idea that most of these "committed" couples "play" on the side? Do you know for a fact that they didn't?” I worked with lots more homosexuals (and live near them) who did bring up what their lives are like. I presume you have legitimate stats that show so many committed couples play on the side. Of my 15 siblings 14 were straight and some of them played on the side which I cannot say about my gay brother. I suspect they did because they parented children outside their own marriages.

Fidelity is moot for this Christian family because in doing our genealogy I found a great grandfather on my dad’s side who was illegitimate. According to Deuteronomy all his descendants for ten generations will be kept from Heaven. It really does not matter if we all commit adultery, if we murder armies, rob the federal bank or do not attend church on Sunday, we are doomed anyway. Unlike you, our sin is one that does not get erased. Thank God, Traditional, you are so fortunate.

What would happen to the Catholic Church if they suddenly decided to ignore the Pope and the Magisterium? Well, that's exactly what happened to a group of English Catholics during the reign of Henry VIII. They turned their backs on the authority of the Church, and set Henry became head of the split-off church. And now, 500 years later, Anglicanism is a testimony of what happens when a branch cuts itself off from the tree.

(Just the opinion of a former Episcopalian who, God willing, will be received into the Catholic Church at Easter '09. I did not leave the Episcopal Church specifically because of the "Great Anglican War" but watching it unfold has certainly helped me detach from my former religious affiliation. For that I thank all of you.)

Duncan and his followers "argue that they are not leaving the Episcopal Church..." Believe me, they left long ago when they began to change the direction of the Pittsburgh Diocese farther and farther to the radical right. Sermons that we heard became more and more intolerant of people who seemed too different and of ideas which frightened them because they so distrust change -- even when it makes things better. Many felt uneasy sitting in the pews. It did not feel like a Christian message of love. I, like others,left broken hearted over the pain these leaders were causing -- especially to the older Christians who had volunteered so much of their time and life to pass Christ's message of love and welcome acceptance of all to the next generation.

It seems that the liberal wing of TEC can tolerate anything except people who disagree with them. Sound like Anglicans? Sound like Fundamentalists?

Also seems like they are in a hurry to take the matter to the courts of Mammon.

KJS seems so filled with her own wisdom, that it leaves no room for others, for scripture, or for God.

Traditional:

Your story is moving and I wish you all the best.

May the peace of the Lord, which passeth all understanding, be with you always.

You show great courage to discuss this on a blog like this where there are many hostile and opinionated folk who are not shy about throwing stones around their own glass houses.

"the larger Anglican Communion allows other provinces to annex parishes and dioceses seemingly at will, no matter where they are."

NO IT DOES NOT!

This business of dioceses withdrawing from The Episcopal Church and allying themselves with other Anglican bodies (whether Nigeria, Rwanda, or The Southern Cone) is BRAND NEW, extralegal, and a devastating challenge to the traditional Anglican system of centering church authority in bishops with jurisdiction over specific territories. Historically, there is ONE Anglican structure in the United States of America -- the Episcopal Church -- and ONE Anglican bishop in southwest Pennsylvania -- the Episcopal Bishop of Pittsburgh. The idea that you get to say, in Pennsylvania, that you are part of the Anglican Province of the Southern Cone, or, in Virginia, that you are part of the Anglican Province of Nigeria, is EXACTLY what the larger conflict is about.

You could not be more mistaken about this crucial point.

". . . open, inclusive and orthodox." Now, is this an oxymoron? There is nothing very open about the orthodox. Whatever arguments can be made in favor of same-sex marriage and in favor of churches supporting it theologicially, it would be a difficult making this appear "orthodox". Orthodox,my eye!

From Mr. Traditional: "What can't be denied is that gay men have a life expectancy of somewhere in the mid-40's, that they are much more prone to alcohol and drug abuse, depression, suicide, promiscuity, pedophilia, and all sorts of sexual addictions."

This statement is a lie.

This argument is so convoluted it is ridiculous.

Easy points:
1. this concerns practicioners of Christianity. Those who don't believe in Christianity, don't have a horse in the race.
2. those Christians who prefer a literal interpretation of the Bible have the constitutional freedom to practice their religion. No one can impose beliefs on them.
3. The literal interpretation makes more sense. If you presume to follow the Bible then you should follow it. If you presume to pick and choose what you like and don't like, then you are nothing but a humanist in so called Biblical clothing.
4. If you don't agree with what the Bible says, fine, but stop pretending to be Biblical and to be proclaimers of its message.
5. Jesus may never had condemned the practice because in his day his society had already condemned the practice. The Bible certainly condemns the practice. There is not a single reference to say that homosexual behavior between consenting or committed adults or otherwise is anything but sin in the Bible's eyes. Agree or disagree - but I wish people and churches would stop being hypocrits when it comes to the Bible. You either believe it or you don't. Too many forked tounges here.

The gay community, like most communities is quite diverse. There are folks who spend all day think about sex and bragging about locker room type exploits. And there are folks who are in long term committed monogamous relations with no flings, and no discretions. Some folks act like teens and some act like adults - in ANY community.
Please remember this when you talk about all gay people being wild and sex-crazed and having nothing on their mind but sex. It just ain't so.

"Traditional" is far from what they are. As someone who was a member of an Episcopal parish that joined the "renewal" movement in the 1980's, who witnessed its leaders---including Martyn Minns, Chuck Irish, and Bishop Duncan first-hand, I can assure less-experienced members of TEC that these trouble-makers are essentially pentacostals.

The NPR program "Speaking of Faith" just replayed a piece on the history of the pentacostal movement, which really began growing in 1906 in Azusa, California. For all its world-wide success, the movement is American and only a century old. In the Episcopal Church, as far as I have been able to tell, it is led mainly by men who seem uncomfortable (at least) with female clergy and emphasize "obedience" to church authority. "Baptism in the spirit" is the primary test for whether one belongs in the community, and there is much peer pressure to exercise the "gifts of the spirit," which include, besides healing, speaking in tongues and coming forward for laying on of hands and then being "slain in the spirit" (keeling over in a swoon and being caught by people assigned to that task). I felt there was always a readiness to judge negatively those, like me, who did not find such phenomena inspiring.

I cannot say that all who practice this style of worship are less than genuine in what they declare about the substance of their faith. However, I am amazed that in the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Communion, "renewal" advocates have gotten away with calling themselves "traditional."

These leaders have treated truly traditional worshippers with contempt and tried to bully them into giving up, not just their buildings, but their actual traditions, both in worship and in welcoming diversity of thought and belief. They are, in a word, intolerant, and I have little hope for reconciliation with them as a group.

Oh please, I dearly wish those who cite the "you can't pick and choose!" argument would first reassure us all that they don't wear cloths of mixed fibers, don't touch a woman on her "unclean" days, etc.

And sex is sex is sex. If anyone thinks that homosexuals are any more sex-crazed than anyone else, than they've never read Hustler, or some of the personal ads in the Washington Post, or City Paper. Or even realized that the MOST profitable web sites are those devoted to sex!

We are, all of us, at different points in our journey of faith. I believe God loves and finds joy in all of his children equally. If there are churches or diocese that choose to leave the Episcopal Church they are no less my brothers in Christ and I wish them God's peace as they move on.

Can we please, please stop the specious "argument" about shellfish or mixed fiber clothes? Jesus, himself did away with the Jewish purity laws, but as usual he sets the pole even higher:
---
But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, SEXUAL IMMORALITY, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean';
---
Now, there is no serious biblical scholar who would state that a first century Jew would NOT include homosexuality among sexual immorality (Greek porneia).

NED, you wrote,"these trouble-makers are essentially pentacostals [sic]," and then went on to say how uncomfortable Duncan is with women ministers. Well, if he's so uncomfortable, why does he have women priests in his diocese? If anything, Duncan is more high church than pentecostal. I think your assesment is way off, especially given your stated credentials. (I know a number of people in that diocese and have worshiped there as a visitor for the last ten years.)

This is unfortunately why so many of use have just moved onto other denominations, be it liberal or conservative - there have always been so many factions and clashes in the Anglican Communion - high church, low church, broad church, what rite to use, when to use it, women priests, gay priests, priests at all, or just call them ministers, high mass, low mass, or any mass at all, confession, and if so what is a sin to confess anyway? Biblical literacy or modern criticism? Loyalty to the denomination or runaway to African break-aways? Even if it was a dispute over coffee or donuts for refreshments after services there would be some sort of a "jihad" among Anglicans. After awhile, well, it just seems all too petty. Sorry, basically a good church, but way too much friction. Blessings and best wishes any way.