Actual Beliefs May Vary

Hi David,

The problem is that too many people, believers and non-believers alike put labels on Christians and "expect" a certain type of conduct across the board. When in fact that is not the case at all.

That is where someone's beliefs become "personal" otherwise we would not be individuals.

from the Confessions of a Non-Muslim thread

Joe said-

"First of all, Obama supporting gay marriage is a lie, and Christians aren't supposed to lie. See: Ten Commandments."

I don't agree with slippery position Obama has taken on gay marriage. So you can stop waving the 10 commandments in my face and sit down and give them a reread yourself.

To clarify Obama's position on Gay Marriage:

OBAMA OPPOSES GAY MARRIAGE BAN

Barack Obama is opposing a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage in California, taking a liberal stand on an issue in the midst of a move to the center on others in recent weeks.

In a letter sent to the Alice B. Toklas LGBT Democratic Club of San Francisco this week, the Illinois senator said "I oppose the divisive and discriminatory efforts to amend the California Constitution, and similar efforts to amend the U.S. Constitution or those of other states."

Conservatives in the state are pushing a constitutional amendment following a California Supreme Court decision that overturned the state's ban on same-sex marriage. Presumptive GOP nominee John McCain backs the proposed amendment.

Obama aides emphasized he has opposed similar state bans in the past. They said the Illinois senator does not support gay marriage, but believes that federal and state constitutional amendments banning gay marriage can also threaten rights that couples have under civil unions and domestic partnerships, which Obama supports.

Obama quietly announced his stance in a statement in a letter to the Toklas club, a California gay rights group. His position comes as a shift for Democrats, as 2004 presidential nominee Sen. John Kerry backed amendments to ban gay marriage in some of the states in which he campaigned.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/07/02/obama_opposes_gay_marriage_ban.html

Mr. Waters, I believe your post is deliberately misleading...The Barna Research Group is a respectable Christian Research organization and some of the information they've found out IS quite disturbing to George Barna. In addition, Beth Moore OF Living Proof Ministries and in conjunction with James and Betty Robison of LifeWay have a research initiative in which they research the beliefs of others. I am a subscriber to the Barna Research Group and am a prayer partner of livingproof ministries, in addition to being a "Friends for Life" partner with LifeWay ministries. I've attended several of Beth Moore's group studies along with her simulcasts and I don't believe for one minute that she meant what you're implying. I believe Beth Moore meant that if you're searching for God you will find him and I would ask that you go into James and Betty Robison's website or watch them at 7:00am ET and on Wednesdays at 7;30pm ET, you can listen to Beth Moore on their show and she is a true Christian who believes the only way to salvation is to confess your sins and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. I really believe that you've distorted the truth. They are research organizations but you are making it seem that they believe all roads lead to heaven without Jesus Christ. NOT SO...I do however believe that most professing Christians are falling away from the faith of scripture and are following myths and are more concerned with being tolerant which is not a bad thing but when doctrine becomes watered down to suit felt needs instead of the fundamentals of our beliefs, then it's a cause for worry not for celebration...!

Opposing a constitutional amendment is not supporting. What business does marriage have in a constitution? Any conservative ought to oppose such measures, and many do. This obsession with gay marriage to the point of blinding Christians to the REAL issues is unhealthy, and to the extent it comes from a place of hate, unholy.

Greedy people are celebrated and welcomed into churches, regardless of their discipleship, while gays are shunned.

Jesus wept.

"Jesus wept"

Thank you for that scripture is worth repeating here:

John 11-

So when Jesus came, He found that (Lazarus) had already been in the tomb four days. Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about two miles away. And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother.

Now Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”

Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”

Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”

Jesus said to her, “I am the Resurrection and the Life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”

And when she had said these things, she went her way and secretly called Mary her sister, saying, “The Teacher has come and is calling for you.” As soon as she heard that, she arose quickly and came to Him. Now Jesus had not yet come into the town, but was in the place where Martha met Him. Then the Jews who were with her in the house, and comforting her, when they saw that Mary rose up quickly and went out, followed her, saying, “She is going to the tomb to weep there.”

Then, when Mary came where Jesus was, and saw Him, she fell down at His feet, saying to Him, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.”

Therefore, when Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, He groaned in the spirit and was troubled. And He said, “Where have you laid him?”

They said to Him, “Lord, come and see.”

Jesus wept. Then the Jews said, “See how He loved him!”

And some of them said, “Could not this Man, who opened the eyes of the blind, also have kept this man from dying?”

Then Jesus, again groaning in Himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, “Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days.”

Jesus said to her, “Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?” Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up His eyes and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me.” Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come forth!” And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Loose him, and let him go.”

Anon, July 9, 2008 4:04 PM

what is your point?

"So many people who might have held orthodox views in the past have embraced a much broader set of beliefs."

What's the point of "orthodox views" existing if religious adherents are free to ignore them. For that matter, what's the point of the Bible, and Christianity as a whole, if you get to pick and choose what to believe?

It's like having a football game where each player gets to decide for himself which rules do and don't apply to him.

Sounds like the same old "Cafeteria Christian" phenomenon that I personally have found most Christians to be.

What I call Chinese menu Theology has invaded almost every religion on the planet including to some extent Islam.

What I mean by this is that these sorts of people, most of whom are willfully ignorant, basically pick one from column A, one from column B, ignore column C, and may or may not take something from Column D.

And usually what they take is the blandest imaginable stuff. Usually things that don't require them to do much more than show up when the mood suits them. They are those luke warm types that God promise in Revelation to spew out of his mouth. They are by and large why I continue to believe that 2/3 of the people sitting in Church Pews on any given Sunday will in the fullness of time find themselves in hell for the sin of Apostasy. You see they worship the God they think ought to be rather than the God that is.

GaryD, the people you describe may well be those who understand the commandment of Jesus much better than you do and actually try to figure out what "Love your neighbour as you love yourself, and love your enemies" actually mean in practice, not just as an empty sentiment.

You ought to go back and meditate everyday on what Jesus taught about Judgment Day in the Gospel of Matthew. Nothing about what sort of sentiments one had about Jesus, but hard evidence of love for Him in action. Jesus was no softie for empty words and useless fancy beliefs. He only promised help through the Holy Spirit to live the life He expected in the Sermon on the Mount. Didn't He warn, "No one who says Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but only one who does the will of My Father in Heaven."

The parable of the Good Samaritan explains clearly what Jesus meant when He said love your neighbor.

If a Chinese menu which includes love for neighbor as Jesus meant is what it takes, then so be it. Besides your interpretation of the Bible verses cannot be guaranteed to be flawless either. Do you live based on what you know to be right and true?

At some point you had churches where only the priest or monks could read and interpret the Bible. Then the printing press came along and messed everything up. The people began to read the Bible for themselves and begin to interpret it for themselves. This freaked out the priests and monks because now there was no guarantee of keeping the one religion. Rather than following strictly what the priests and monks where preaching, people were beginning to pick and choose the important parts for themselves.

Because of this new found freedom, the Reformation came into existence. Nowadays, we have the internet, 24-hour news, video cameras everywhere, cell phones in the hands of 1 billion people -- at more of a rate than ever, Americans are being exposed to nearly every other religion in the world. It makes perfect sense that more and more Christians are becoming less condemning of other Christian denominations. It's only a matter of time before this begins to apply to non-Christians as well.

With time religion will catch up to the real world.

I am happy to see that the Pew Survey shows that Christians do not believe that adherents of other religions automatically go to hell. I have converted from Christianity into the Baha'i Faith. I feel that all believers from all religions will attain proximity to God if they sincerely try to align their life with His commandments and wishes. However, I feel it is not enough to recognize the Manifestation of God, be it Jesus-Christ, Muhammad, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha or Baha'u'llah in my case (the list of Divine Manifestations is not exhaustive). I feel as adherent of any religion, I should try to live up to the behaviour outlined for believers by God's messengers. As Baha'u'llah says: "Let deeds, not words, be your adorning." However, all authority to decide rests with God, so I cannot be sure to gain proximity until my last breath. Someone who might have gone astray may in the last breath of expiring before death attain to real faith. Knowing that, I will stay humble and modest and never feel superiour to a non-believer. Baha'u'llah, Whom I consider to be the latest of God's Manifestations stretching back into the most remote past, tells me to consort with followers of all religions in utmost amity and concord. And that's exactly what I'll do...

I am happy to see that the Pew Survey shows that Christians do not believe that adherents of other religions automatically go to hell. I have converted from Christianity into the Baha'i Faith. I feel that all believers from all religions will attain proximity to God if they sincerely try to align their life with His commandments and wishes. However, I feel it is not enough to recognize the Manifestation of God, be it Jesus-Christ, Muhammad, Krishna, Moses, Zoroaster, Buddha or Baha'u'llah in my case (the list of Divine Manifestations is not exhaustive). I feel as adherent of any religion, I should try to live up to the behaviour outlined for believers by God's messengers. As Baha'u'llah says: "Let deeds, not words, be your adorning." However, all authority to decide rests with God, so I cannot be sure to gain proximity until my last breath. Someone who might have gone astray may in the last breath of expiring before death attain to real faith. Knowing that, I will stay humble and modest and never feel superiour to a non-believer. Baha'u'llah, Whom I consider to be the latest of God's Manifestations stretching back into the most remote past, tells me to consort with followers of all religions in utmost amity and concord. And that's exactly what I'll do...

I am a self identified Evangelical, I attend an Evangelical church, and I am not at all surprised by these findings. One of the leading philosohical underpinning of modern Evalgelical Chiristianity was C.S. Lewis, who believed that non-believers could end up "saved". He also believed that salvation was obtainable *after* death. I happen to agree with Mr. Lewis, Malcolm Muggeridge, George MacDonald, and the other theologians and thinkers of the early (and genuine) Evangelical movement. Beyond this, I and most genuine Evangelicals are politcial moderates not connected in any way with either politcial party (although most of us tend to vote Democratic and cannot stand George Bush). You need to be careful to differentiate between Evangelicals and American Fundimentalists, like James Dobson, who most of us do not even regard as a Christian at all. Fundimentalism is a uniquely American pseudo-christian cult movement involving superstition, dogmatic and twisted biblical interpretation, and a belief in far right political action. The leaders and members, both, are largely uneducated. The leaders, if they have any formal training at all, are trained in third rate special colleges establshed by this bankrupt movement to paint lipstick on that pig. Fundimentalism is the modern day equivalent of the money changers that Christ drove from the temple. Evaglicals, on the other hand, actually believe in the Bible, all of it, and try our best to follow it. We will condemn the money changers of Fundimentalism at the same time we will speak out against inequality, social injustice, which liberals just love, but, at the same time, we cannot accept homosexuality as a valid alternative lifestyle, sexual license, rampant secularism, and much of what passes for "modern" in todays society.

Quoting from above article: Scott McConnell, associate director of LifeWay Research, explained to Baptist Press why their question made more sense.

"Many people think of 'denomination' when they hear 'religion,'

So Scott McConnell, associate director of a Christian research organization, is saying that many Christians are too narrow-minded to accept that religions other than Christianity exist.

I have always known that to be the case but I have never before heard any Christian admit that it is factual.

Garyd: "will in the fullness of time find themselves in hell for the sin of Apostasy"

What you are suffering from here Gary is the sin of envying thy neighbor's religion. You believe people go to hell because YOU believe. And for that reason YOU may go to hell. Other religions also get what they believe in, and what you believe does not make it otherwise. You may envy those who will not be going to hell, but your condition is easy to change. You just believe something different. Don't imagine you are going to ruin our lives with your beliefs.

The above statement is an act of evangelism. Atheists can be some of the most avid evangelists. We care about what other people believe because those people are important in our lives. We act to change the beliefs of others in order to make them more complementary to our own. Those beliefs we would most like to change are those which seem to degrade our opinions of ourselves or pose a threat to our very existence. Spreading these latter beliefs is not evangelical but an attempt at raw abuse of power. We call these proponents, not evangelicals, but proselytizers or ideologues. Atheists can also fall into this category.

Believers of all categories are beginning to understand that "Chinese menu Theology" actually works. In the history of religion it is referred to as synctretism. It is the means by which any insane or obsolete religion can be brought into the real world. Atheism is currently feeling the effects of syncretism just as much as Christianity, etc.

" Garyd:

What I call Chinese menu Theology has invaded almost every religion on the planet including to some extent Islam."

I suppose you prefer the 'You'll eat what I say and like it' version? Odd for such a 'free market capitalist.' :)

As a Deist that believes after you die it's down to worms and dirt, I respect your right to believe whatever you want to but, frankly, don't care.

I've known so many "Christians" that were backbiting, hateful control freaks. They justify their behavior since they are "saved by grace" and are gonna be jammin' with Jesus in the New Jerusalem no matter what.

"L.Kurt Engelhart:

"Garyd: "will in the fullness of time find themselves in hell for the sin of Apostasy""

Have to admit, this is the kind of thing which makes me wonder if there's a connection between the fact 'Conservative Christian' policies always seem to come out *backwards,* and the fact that some of the 'saints' they quote righteous dogma from as fact also claimed that the 'chief delight of Heaven is watching the torments of the damned.'

I'm kinda having trouble seeing that as 'delightful' somehow. Must not be 'righteous' enough, I guess.

willandjansdad: "I respect your right to believe whatever you want to but, frankly, don't care."

Do you care what Will and Jan believe?

Will and Jan are life-long Unitarians and very happy and loved in our church community. Thank you.

willandjansdad: "I respect your right to believe whatever you want to but, frankly, don't care."

Do you care what Will and Jan believe?

willandjansdad:

Do you care what Will and Jan believe?

You didn't answer the question. Thank you.

In our little family, we have chosen a path that acknowledges the "spiritual" elements of humanity but from a basis of logic and reason. Jefferson, Whitman, Susan B. Anthony, Joseph Priestly...The list is endless...share this philosophy. We don't particularly need the fear of Hell to control our behavior. Self respect that includes a respect for others is sufficient.

Their belief system is their choice...Not mine. They are adults now and have chosen to stay in the faith-system in which they were raised. I only have two absolutes that I expect from them...

1)Don't worship evil

2)Love your neighbor as yourself

If you know your Bible, you know that is very close to what Jesus told the Pharisees when asked about the law and commandments.

Fortunately, most adherents to the various religions don't seem as rigid as their tenets demand.

Maybe it depends on your general world view. Those who tend to think most people are good and can generally be trusted will probably incorporate this more expansive and accepting view into their religious beliefs, promoting the idea that there are many paths to god.

Those who tend to view others with distrust or hostility view their religion as an exclusive club meant to confer upon them a special status or relationship with god and condemning all others to some special punishment reserved for the wicked.

The world does a little better with the first group.

Many Christians can't "agree to disagree". As Jefferson said...Whether my neighbor believes in a dozen Gods or none neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg". Pardon the paraphrase but that's pretty close. It seems that some athiests are just as judgemental. I am not afraid of a Hell that doesn't exist. You can't shame me, scare me or threaten me to follow your path. Deep inside the fundamentalist Christians and Taliban have more in common than either would like to admit. Only the law and public opinion in our pluralistic society prevents burning at the stake. The hard core athiests need to lighten up. If there is a God...looking at us...He or she must have a twisted sense of humor.

Oh, I dunno, 'Enemy,' seems a lot of people are waging their own little 'holy wars' to acheive 'peace through the power of 'superior fires.'

And the band plays on...

willandjansdad: "Their belief system is their choice...Not mine."

Thank you for your openness and honesty. I conclude that you do care what they believe. I believe what you would want them to believe is very much what any human, of any religion, should believe. I do not understand why any "believers" would need anything more.

From the article: As pollster George Barna learned nearly 15 years ago, "So many people who might have held orthodox views in the past have embraced a much broader set of beliefs."

I agree with that statement. Do you?
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I wonder if any of the respondents to either survey live in Central Texas. Nearly all of the 100 or so self-described nondenominational Christian churches around the area where I live should be defined as: a group of people who get together at least twice a week to condemn others, babble gibberish, collect money, and make sure everyone votes Republican.

I hope Jesus has a good sense of humor. It might be the only way a lot of those people will see the Heaven they believe in.

The number of such churches and people attending them here has at least tripled in the last twenty years so I can't agree with Barna's statement.

Says Waters: "I'm also glad that most people I know, atheists and evangelicals included, are more open-minded than their definitions or doctrines allow."

Evidently, Mr. Waters is here shamelessly expressing an appreciation for a personal lack of integrity -- in matters of faith, no less.

For responsible adults, formally affiliating with a religious organization usually involves a sacred pledge to uphold a prescribed set of tenets that are consistent with one's own convictions. Retaining such an affiliation while knowingly and willfully compromising that sacred pledge is two-faced. It is hypocrisy. This Mr. Waters admires?

Sorry Pagan but I must disabuse you of that notion. There is no window on Hell from heaven. Nor is one needed given that the worst part of hell is mental and basically all you see is a bunch of people standing around in God awful heat wearing little more than bemused expression mirroring surprise for the newbies, and jaded indifference for everyone else.

The heat is bad but that which does not kill you out right you eventually will become accustomed. The people there are another problem all together. Not one of them wouldn't sell you out in a heartbeat just for a few grins. But even that doesn't happen often as everyone is just too self absorbed to give enough of a crap about you to even try to stick it to you.

Really though the chief difference between heaven and Hell is that in heaven everyone seeks to serve while in Hell everyone waits to be served.

Why is everyone jumping all over GaryD?

His comments are exactly in line with the teachings of the Bible. He clearly is not a "cafeteria Christian." More power to him, I respect him as a Christian more than almost all other Christians I know.

The flip side of that is: the more I respect one's ability to actually adhere to Christian dogma as explicitly stated in the Bible, the less I respect that person as an intelligent human being.

We're going through a phase. Folks are kicking free of religious shackles and starting to think for themselves more, and are finding it hard to swallow the supernatural-magic thing in this increasingly scientifically savvy world.
God, it seems is a hypothesis whose time as come and gone. The younger generation had better be thoroughly indoctrinated in their respective religions in order to survive the coming global knowledge tsunami that may otherwise make atheists of them all.
Religion is a harder sell than ever amongst thinking people; it can only get harder as the people get wiser.

The whole Christian mythology is a quagmire of contradictions and foolish superstitions! Even the basic story of Jesus is now revealed to be nothing but a repeat of multiple occurrences of the recurring theme in the time of the purported life of Jesus! In point of fact, there is no collaborating evidence the man even existed! It is worth noting that Paul got it all wrong; the death and resurrection of the Messiah was for the redemption of the Jews from the repression of the Romans and an affirmation that the Kingdom of God …on Earth!...would occur in the lifetime of those who witnessed the Events! The genius of the early authors was to transform the Jewish myth of the Kingdom of God for his Chosen people, the Jews, with its capital in Jerusalem in the lifetime of the resurrected martyr ... into a airy fairyland, an invisible place after death that could be gotten to only by paying the anointed priests for the Keys! The great Protestant divergence followed by the Diaspora of the fleeing religious fanatics to America followed by the very creative charlatans who gave us Mormonism, Evangelicalism, and various other isms with no rational justification for any of their nonsense is remarkable only in the mass acceptance of the mish-mash by gullible Americans!

Humans are a wonder!

Someday intelligent people will discover that most polling data really has little informational value. You can't make sweeping generalizations about religious belief based on answers to a few sentence-long "yes" or "no" questions, some of which are poorly defined to begin with.

Although CHAOTICIAN seems to be partial to sweeping generalizations, which is in keeping with the practices of most village atheists . . .

What possible relevance can a poll have with reality?

What I have seen is that, as Western society has become more and more pagan, it has become more and more intolerant of non-pagans. Ironically, this is breaking down the walls between orthodox Christians, who inflexibly espouse the intolerant belief that Jesus is (as He said) "the Way, the Truth, and the Life" and that (as He said) "no one comes to the Father except through [Him]". I'm not saying that doctrine isn't important; I think it is very important. But when we're all in concentration camps together, the make-or-break question will be: who do men say that I am?

YOYO,

Let me ask you . . . What is your hope for mankind? What hope do we have in becoming an "increasingly scientifically savvy world?"

Is your hope grounded in the belief that we are marching towards some grand utopia? That the world is changing for the better as we become advanced thinkers and doers?

If so, you are being fooled by a myth. Enlightenment has proven to be of no use against evil in this world.

I can't think of a better definition of Jesus' faith than GaryD posted. "In Heaven everyone seeks to serve while in Hell everyone seeks to be served." This is what the whole New Testament and the Hebrew Scriptures proclaim as true religion in God. Some Christians don't practice this kind of religion. Other non-Christians do. In my opinion these are the folks who have been saved by knowing (experiencing which is what the Gospel of John meant) Jesus Christ.

I tend to take the position that all religions are made by man, and therefore none of them have all the correct answers with regard to the ultimate questions.

That is not to say that they are without value or wrong, just incomplete.

But when you look at the religions of the world, certain themes of morality and belief emerge: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," for example, occurs in a wide variety of religious texts. The language and emphasis varies, but the idea is nonetheless there.

Mr. Waters,

Mr. McConnell, and many others in my part of the nation [Kentucky], want it both ways. I see and hear so many obituaries describing the deceased as being one of "the Baptist faith." His rephrasing of the question is calculated to sway the one's questioned to his denomination's way of thought. This is both deceitful and hypocritical.