Christians Give God a Bad Name

Very well said. I am thoroughly enjoying your writing. Keep up the good work.

It was exactly this sort of pondering that led me away from the church. I don't know how one can honestly examine religion and walk away a believer. Religion has been consistently and continuously divisive throughout history.

Since becoming a non-believer again (as I was the day I was born) I find that I am not distracted by the guilt and pressure to be a "good Christian" -- I am able now to focus on being a good person.

In my experience, people also call themselves Christians when trying to exclude others from an in-group. We have a friend who seems to have an almost uncontrollable need to be everyone's "best" friend, to the point where she is constantly competing to give the best gifts, take over all the work at other friends' parties, etc. One of her tactics is to cut out perceived competitors through group identification. With us (my wife and I are atheists) she's constantly going on and on about "Christian" values and so on. Before she knew we were atheists I never heard her utter a single religious sentiment, and according to our other religious friends she drops the Christian shtick when we're not around.

The word I really, really hate is "godly", as in "We're trying to lead godly lives.". Makes me think of awful, racist, sexless, joyless, hate-filled little people who obsess about other people's perceived faults while maintaining a careful blindness to their own weaknesses. Ugh.

When I was a child in my parents' church I met and had contact with tolerant, loving, kind, non-judgmental Christians who followed the teachings of Christ. I loved them, I felt the world (and I) was safe in their care. BUT since the advent of the Conservative Revolution I fear most "Christians". They have abandoned the main tool AND weapon of Christ,... LOVE. In other words: "The Bible Thumpers" have frightened away the "Do Gooders" and that is a bad thing not only for the church but for the world.

There are so many excuses today as to why one might not want to become a Christian, or have left the "faith."

God has made it crystal clear (His Spirit reveals truth) that we have no more excuses for rejecting being reconciled back to Him. He sent His only begotten Son and through Christ ALONE we might be redeemed back to God. Christ is the only way to heaven. Being a good person does not get one to heaven.

If we would take our eyes off man - and yes, we all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory - keep them on Jesus, who is the ONLY perfect example, we could begin to show those who call themselves "Christians" and are not living up to the Name how to be a follower of Christ.

When we stand before God - and we all will - He will not be concerned about how we viewed anyone else, or accept our excuses of who caused us to reject Christ. Only those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book Of Life will enter heaven.

No more excuses - run to Christ before it's too late!

You know what, Mr. Waters--make some sweeping generalizations against all Muslims based upon the acts of the so-called extremists, starting with the men who slammed planes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Let's see how that goes over.

There is a fundamental paradox that precludes many members of the Abrahamic religions from obeying the Golden Rule.

On one side, they are attracted to authoritative doctrine because they deem themselves inadequate to plan and manage their own lives without direction from a superior. On the other side, the Golden Rule requires acceptance of personal responsibility and exercise of individual judgment.

These proud "Christians" cannot gain what they need from any doctrine that requires them to reason. Hence, they must reject the Golden Rule.

Ironically, organized religion remains the most compelling argument for atheism.

President Andrew Jackson actually thought God wanted him to kill Native Americans.

Christians turned their backs on Ryan White, whose only "sin" was that he had contracted a horrible disease called AIDS.

If I remember correctly, President Bush said or at least intimated that God told him to start the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. All those innocent Iraqi people have been killed, as well as American soldiers ... in the name of God ... for the quest of oil.

-- What a broad brush we are using today, Mr. Waters. So 2,000 years of good works, faith and hope thrown out the window because of President Jackson? Christians turned their backs on Ryan White ... how exactly now? And you blame President Bush for "intimations" -- perhaps, just perhaps you are reading too much into his statements?

I'm sorry, sir. But your post reads like an angry letter editor the school newspaper penned by a junior. It has that much depth.

It's this sort of writing that drives me up a wall. Yes, Christians have done many bad things over the years, just like everyone else. But Christian charities and missionaries are around the world in massive numbers, giving enormous amounts of money. They include doctors, human rights advocates, people who dig wells and plant crops in famine-ravaged third world villages... all in the name of God. My church has sent 5 separate missions over the past couple years to New Orleans (including one just weeks ago) to help rebuild and clean the city, parts of which are still a mess. Does that get the press coverage that Ryan White does? Not even close - in fact, you omit it in favor of condemning the Christian name on account of, um, Andrew Jackson?

It's this sort of cherrypick that dumbs down the religious discourse in this country. The Sam Harrises of the world can list a thousand cloying examples of bad things Christians have done, all the while deliberately ignoring the good, because it doesn't tell a good story.

Furthermore, boiling Christianity down to the Golden Rule is also foolish and facile. A key message that Jesus taught was "Love God, love others" (the "which commandment is the greatest" passage) - the Golden Rule only ever deals with the second half of that. The reason Jesus was angry with the money-changers was because they were using holy grounds to further their own worldly ends, and doing so without contrition. It wasn't because people were using each other, it's because they were abusing that which is God's.

There are countless more issues with your article, but in any case, it is out of step with any learned interpretation of Scripture. The equally absurd, bigoted comments from people like "Old and Jaded" are no help either - it's folks like you who rail against Christianity as absurd, uneducated, and arbitrarily judgmental that make me wonder if you've ever actually set forth in a church. We're here, many of us are doing good things that help people on both small and large scales. Most of us are educated - at elite, secular schools (*gasp*) - we reason, we think, and we still believe.

If some Christians are "giving God a bad name", simplistic drivel like this article, I suppose, is your contribution to that effort. I hope you'll try working in the other direction at some point.

The difficulty, as I see things, is in order to be exclusive there must be the excluded. One set of values, whatever that means, trumps all other values. Christian belief trumps all other beliefs. Except that Christian beliefs can and are individually formed to confirm prejudices of whomever is speaking or writing, inviting all to either join in or leave.
Jesus said, it is said, that the only way to the Father is through him, Jesus. All others perish. Christians cannot escape that precept though many now try.
Rev. Jim

Thank you for this thoughtful piece. I have a hard time understanding people who think that God created us in His image, and yet some of us belong to the "real religion" and others do not. I do try to live my life making the best decisions I can and try not to judge others who don't agree with me, which is one of my biggest challenges.

When I say I'm a Christian, I think my intention is to remind myself that I'm striving to live up to a set of values, although I see that it could be interpreted that I'm trying to elevate myself above someone of another or no faith. I'll have to give that some thought.

I find this article compelling for many reasons. I was a Christian for about 20 years of my life and have been to churches of nearly all Christian denominations. While some Christians truly do live the way Christ's statements indicate they should, from what I saw that only accounted for maybe 20% of those I met. The rest were to some degree as bad as he described.

I remember not often telling people I was Christian for many of the same reasons outlined in this article. That said, those who I did tell all remarked that it was exceedingly rare to find a Christian who did not judge. I said my sin was no worse/better than theirs and that judgment is a job for god, not for a mere human such as I. I did not judge others because I felt that the statement "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god" didn't seperate one type of sin from another.

Having been on the receiving end of a ton of judgment for various perceived and sometimes confessed sins over the years, it got to the point I refuse to set foot in any religious institution except for weddings and funerals.

The judgmentalism of many in the church is so horrid it turned me away from Christianity completely and likely for the rest of my life.

I do wish to respond to anonymous who said:

"You know what, Mr. Waters--make some sweeping generalizations against all Muslims based upon the acts of the so-called extremists, starting with the men who slammed planes into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Let's see how that goes over. "

First, I do not believe this is per se a sweeping generalization. I believe strongly it's a pretty accurate picture. Secondly, I find it telling that the writer lacked the backbone to at least sign their name to this.

Most of all though, I find their premise flawed because it wouldn't be appropriate for Mr. Waters to comment on Muslims in this type of way because that's not the faith to which he subscribes.

I also feel that this sort of thing just underscores that Christians will get upset at this type of reasonable, accurate and well thought out critique instead of hearing the words therein and examining themselves in comparison to Christ's teachings to see how they REALLY are.

I have trouble being convinced when I read or hear that we are all sinners. Are we talking here about the Ten Commandments or another set of rules? I happen to believe one can get through this life WITHOUT killing and coveting and dishonoring our parents. I almost think those speakers and writers and preachers are projecting their sinful ways onto the rest of us.

In case your readers don't know it yet one of the most delightful activities in this life is loving one another. You compliment them, you open their door, you smile at them, you even pay their road toll and, by gosh, you feel good all over. Believe me. Try it if you have not done so lately. The Golden Rule is the easiest instruction I have ever heard of. It sure beets finishing your carrots, doing your homework and even cleaning your room.

Try it and get back to me.

The problem isn't with Christians, or Muslims or Jews for that matter. It never really has been. Most of these persons are decent people (for the most part) by anyones standard. The problem, and where most of the bad things Mr. Waters eludes to, comes from the fundamentalists. No matter the religion, fundamentalism breeds a sense of uncompromising superiority. It breeds a sense of only absolutes. Unfortunately, the world is not absolutes; it's shades of gray. We all know that.

So, I would say that while I understand Mr. Waters point, I feel he does a bad job by failing to recognize the goods things Christians have done (and I'm not a Christian--but can still easily recognize this indisputable fact). It's not usually the best things to generalize on a subject like this. Look to individuals and their contributions, whether they be positive or negative.

There's a tremendous amount of calumny in this column. Fortunately there's also a tremendous amount of silliness, which allows me to conclude that Rev. Smith is not really responsbile for the wild accusations that she throws out against her brothers and sisters in Christ. It's a good thing, too, because calumny is a grave sin, but being a fool is not.

"We Christians rail about the horror of abortion but blame kids born out of wedlock for their plights and ignore their needs."

Nonsense. If we blame anyone, we blame their parents. When an out-of-wedlock child grows up to be a criminal, yes, we treat him like the free moral agent that he is and we don't excuse his actions. But that doesn't mean we blame them for their plights. And I have a funny feeling that "ignore their needs" is a euphamism for for "don't lavish them with welfare payments from the state, confiscated from others at the barrel of a gun." I'm very comfortable with my level of charitable giving to the poor. Don't try to tell me that I ignore the needs of the poor simply because I'm not voting for Barack Obama.

Much ahistorical silliness follows. Rev. Smith apparently expects us to be surprised that throughout history, people who have called themselves "Christians" have managed to - wait for it! - SIN! Nevermind that we're only looking at one side of the ledger: slaveowners were bad, but let's not talk about abolitionists.

But the Reverend is right about one thing: calling one's self a "Christian" should never be a boast. It's an admission that we're broken, that we're sinners, and that we need to be healed.

Thank you for your thoughtful, honest statement. I can anticipate the hostilities, but I myself find no fault in your testimony. The American brand of Christianity that has held the media megaphone for at least two decades now is ten times worse than you have described. I have to remind myself that there are thoughtful, humanitarian Christian leaders and laypersons. But we don't hear from them. So thank you again. May thousands more rise up and speak the truth in love as you have.

In regard to our President invoking God for war support--it seems that no one mentions the Land Letter that was sent by evangelical leaders to Bush to expound alleged principles of a "just war." The "reasoning" undergirding the letter tried so hard to mask its evil, and I still find it sickening that thousands--perhaps millions--of American "Christians" stand on those unholy premises.

Jesus warned in the gospels there would be those who claimed to follow him but who, in fact, did not know who he was. And the Christian faith, by it's nature is a journey that begins by accepting all of us where we are as sinners. And so the faith will always be a mixed of Devine goodness and human evil. Those who have developed a true relationship with Christ will thrist for God's grace, want to share that grace with others, and grive at our continuing weakness to do evil.

I certainly have more sympathy for Ms. Smith's brand of Christianity than the one that she is criticizing. But is there really any evidence that people are fleeing the kinds of churches that she is criticizing rather than the kind that she belongs to? It seems that those other churches are growing while the more moderate churches are shrinking.

There's a tremendous amount of silliness in this column.
Wow...

There's a tremendous amount of silliness in this column.
Wow...

There's a tremendous amount of silliness in this column.
Wow...

I'll be succinct. In the words of the late George Carlin, "religion is bullsh!t."

So to all you bible thumpers out there, obey one of Carlin's abbreviated 10 commandments and "keep thy religion to thyself."

I'll be succinct. In the words of the late George Carlin, "religion is bullsh!t."

So to all you bible thumpers out there, obey one of Carlin's abbreviated 10 commandments and "keep thy religion to thyself."

I'll be succinct. In the words of the late George Carlin, "religion is bullsh!t."

So to all you bible thumpers out there, obey one of Carlin's abbreviated 10 commandments and "keep thy religion to thyself."

I'll be succinct. In the words of the late George Carlin, "religion is bullsh!t."

So to all you bible thumpers out there, obey one of Carlin's abbreviated 10 commandments and "keep thy religion to thyself."

A couple of questions to stir the pot:

Is Christianity about belief or action? Does simply believing in the divinity of Jesus make a person Christian? Or should the Christian take some set of actions in response to the belief?

I'm not asking facetiously. Although agnostic now, I was raised with the notion that belief was sufficient for salvation, independent of good works. Although the scriptures and the words of Jesus indicate that action cannot be divorced from belief, a number of churches I attended always stressed, above everything else, that Christians are defined solely by belief (faith).

It seems to me that the contrary should be the case: Being a practicing Christian - someone who really lives by Christ's principles - should be difficult on most days; nearly impossible on others (After all, how do you follow the example of a man nailed to a cross?).

Right on, Ms. Smith! If the Christianists would simply practice the message of Jesus - love God and love one another as yourself - the world would be a better place. Judge not, lest ye be judged, and all of that.

Jesus may have taught the "Golden Rule" but it did not originate with him ... nor is it exclusive to Christianity.

"On one side, they are attracted to authoritative doctrine because they deem themselves inadequate to plan and manage their own lives without direction from a superior."

I have seen this so often in so many so-called Christians, who are so ready to tell you all about the "rules" (which always seem to judge others but never themselves), that it rings absolutely true.

Ms. Smith, I couldn't agree more. You have eloquently summarized the problem with American "Christianity". I happen to be both black and gay and the self-righteousness professed by self-labeled Christian conservatives has been enough to put me off from the church for years.

The American church could have pushed - hard - to put an end to the Iraq War. Instead, they've spent their time and energy on the Federal Marriage Amendment (which is anti-gay marriage) and loading school boards with proponents of "intelligent design", a clever way of pushing Christiantity in the guise of science.

Bullying, indeed!

MAN MADE GOD IN HIS OWN IMAGE AND DOES NOT EXIST
Einstein likened religeon to childish legend in other words fairy tales so have another look at what you believe in, look at Genesis doesn,t that enable you to see the bible as a book of fiction If einstein showed inteligence why can,t those that believe in god question the existence of god ie, how was god created(invented) and by which arabs

I agree entirely with Susan K. Smith. Unfortunately , she goes to to say :

"If one is a Christian, one is supposed to imitate the Christ. It says that in the Bible. Jesus talked to everyone, dismissed nobody, and got angry when people took advantage of each other. Remember his fit in the Temple when he overthrew the moneychangers?"

I thought that this was the rather large point of departure in this WebSite, which began by rounding quite properly on the false notion that being Catholic in America was reason to be targeted for unwarranted criticism. It was then pointed out that the number of Supreme Court Judges belied in itself any such notion. Elsewhere, the number of Cathholics planted in the secular Supreme Courts around the world , I am sure, correlates highly with the secret activities of Opus Dei.

Two points emerge: One is the fact that Catholics are good at defence, because it takes from their own aggression. Not being a Catholic is a cause celebre for being victimised by partisan and well-organised cabals of Catholics emanating from Opus Dei as well as from Jesuits and local priests manning the Parishes and Dioceses. Catholicism is subversive, proactively so and aggressively and offensively so!

Which brings me to my second point and Susan K. Smith's above statement. The point of departure on this WebSite was to the effect that one could not 'imitate Christ' because the modern scholarship of Francesco Carotta, Joseph Atwill and the Peson Family Historians demonstrates conclusively that there never was such a person, divine or human , to imitate. And who in hell's name -- apart from the Pontiff and the other a-historical, keep-your-head-in-the-historical-sand Christians, wants to imitate the life of Caesar - to all intents and purposes , a butcher?

This was where we left off; we cannot go back to pretending that these grounding sources do not exist! Any debate that claims to be half-way genuine has to contend first of all with these sources, otherwise the two parallel languages and discourses that have already arisen on the internet will arise on this WebSite. You can't have Jesus and Caesar in the one sanguage!

Which brings me to my final point. The idea of 'clementia' has sugared its way into what is euphemistically called 'Christian charity.' There is no golden calf so laden with theft, deceit, get-rich-quick Christians than those who sustain the notion uncritically that 'charity' is a good thing.

Quite recently I thought I would conduct a simple test by asking ten lawyers of my acquaintance a simple question: Do you believe that the funds from charities amassed by the Christian endeavours, including those manned by your colleagues, manage to find their way 'within an ass's roar' of the object of those charities?

In all six cases, the response was the same: a slow considered grin took shape and was then reluctantly followed by a squinting and painful negative nod of the head. These men already know that the charities in my country amounts to annual billions and that by law the organisers can use up to 80 and more percent on admistrative costs etc.. And yet they felt that the whole enterprise is another Christian fraud. 'Christian fraud' are my words , not theirs; but I suspect that when some journalists get to do their research, they will have a best seller on how charities wind up either in church structures, enemy hands and private nest-eggs.

Let us talk about a God-less world. If we cannot imitate a non-existent Jesus or Harry Potter, let us have some evangelical atheists -- intelllecutals , in other words: for the big difference between the late George Carlin and Bishop Fulton Sheen, is that George , though much more accurate in his analysis, leave no solidiers, possesses no secret armies and cabals to do battle after he is dead, whereas Fulton Sheen, as with all Christians of the messianic persuasion, poison the water for ever.

Seamus Breathnach

www.irish-criminology.com

Athena,

Actually, Christ calls us to use both judgment and discernment. You are taking that scripture verse completely out of context.

Enemy,

As a baptist, my personal relationship with Christ (being born again; baptized) is my salvation. Inherently, good works come from that as I try my best to live a "Christ-like" life. BUT, salvation in Christ does not eliminate sin from my life. So, I too, say or do things that are completely against my faith. But as long as my heart remains pure, God will forgive me for those transgressions.

Christians try to be good people so that they will live forever in Heaven. If that's what it takes for folks to behave well, then I'm for such a belief.

But I'd have more respect for them if they could behave well without expectations of celestial reward, which, let's face it, look more and more unlikely the more we learn about the real world.

A supernatural world of gods and angels has never been shown to actually exist outside of people's imaginations, so it is fair to assume that our ancestors made it all up trying to make sense of the world before science came along.

Maybe in the brave hew world ahead we will learn to put aside childish notions of eternal life and gods, and concentrate on doing the best we can with this life - the only life that we know for sure is real.

Those of you attacking Mr. Waters for this column really need to read more carefully. This was not written or posted by David Waters. It was penned by Susan Smith. The "Editor's Note" at the beginning makes this perfectly clear.

For those of you bashing "Mr. Waters" for his anti-Christian "drivel," I certainly hope you read your Bibles much more closely and with more care and attention then you did this piece.

It's all about love. And love is about empathy and selflessness. Whoa, let me back up. Selflessness.

...Not "kinda selfless but still have to do what i have to do for me to survive"... self-LESS-ness.

That's a pretty intense concept, though... being selfless. And you can say "what can I do? I'm just one person!" But how frequently has one person rallied thousands?

And you can talk about how you have a family you need to support, and how you give charitably but only enough to not put a strain on your pocket, but is that admirable? Or are you only giving to charities (in comfortable amounts) to make yourself feel better about driving a gas-eating vehicle and having two mortgages to pay (and not voting for Barack Obama, although I'm sure Rev. Smith never mentioned his name)?

But far be it for me to attack an honest Christian with a six-figure salary and a summer house on the coast. It's your money, your brothers and sisters in Christ can get their own!

So is the idea behind Christianity to try to dumb down God's principles to make sense in this day and age?

I don't think so.

I think the idea is to try to work YOUR way up to benevolence, to see things trough other people's eyes, to leave your qualms and insecurities behind. In essence, to "let go and let God."

The ideal way to be a Christian is, in truth, terribly inconvenient. But if you're looking for convenience in religion, you're going to be looking for quite some time. I'll go so far as to say you'll be looking forever... because religion ISN'T ABOUT YOU. Not at all! It's not a bunch of orders being barked at you by a general. It's a set of principles that require thought! If it makes someone else feel badly, it's probably the wrong thing to do. Religion in a nutshell.

I agree with the George Carlin post- religion is bullsh!t.
People can learn right and wrong and then live that way- they shouldn't need to 'worship' some fairly tale in the sky for things to work out well for them.
But then, the religious and political 'leaders' would be missing out on those huge flocks of the willing, who give their voices, votes, money, and energy (not to mention souls, if there is such a thing) to their leaders 'missions' (fighting wars, getting elected, being the powerful head of something, like a megachurch, etc..) and bank accounts.
One day most of humanity will wake up and snap out of this religious perversion which helps some, but ruins many more.

Why did no one respond to Heath? That post was a little angry for my taste, but made some good points.

Yeah, stop giving me a bad name.

Steve,

"But then, the religious and political 'leaders' would be missing out on those huge flocks of the willing, who give their voices, votes, money, and energy"

---> And what about the millions who continue to vote because they have been brainwashed by the myth of progress? Our politicians have mastered the ability to sell the American public on the idea that they can take us the next step farther on our grand march to utopia. Good grief. In 2008, I believe it's called "Change we can believe in".

The Audacity of Hype - beware of the Warren Harding Effect.

And for those calling onto the scene those good actions Christians have carried out, I ask you one simple question:

Do you honestly think God is satisfied?

Ms. Smith says:

"We use God to justify the most horrendous acts, and have done so throughout history. What on earth made Christians feel like God wanted them to kill Muslims during the Crusades?"

I will show you below what on earth made Christians feel like God wanted them to kill Muslims.
The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians. Did you get that or shall I repeat it?

The main reason most of us believe in the 'truth' of God is because it has been drummed into our heads since we were little kids. It results in life-long hypnosis; and an inability to consider outside views, ie.,a different belief, or no belief at all.

If we had been born into a different culture, or had different parents, we would believe a different 'truth.'

We have to learn to be more skeptical about what we consider to be real. Skepticism would have saved the terrorists from slaughtering themselves and three thousand innocents on 9/11 for the ridiculous pipe-dream of eternity in Paradise with a bounty of celestial virgins.

While we can see how absurd this is; the terrorists were indoctrinated to believe it to be the truth. Is it any more irrational than what we Christians are raised to believe? Everlasting life up there in Heaven with God and all our loved ones? I think not.

"Do you honestly think God is satisfied?"

I haven't been satisfied in a long time, if you know what I mean ;-)

And what about killing, in any circumstance, does God condone?

"Thou shalt not kill, unless..."

Let's see. Maybe it is time for the Rev. Smith to take the beam out of her own eye before looking for that speck in her neighbor's eye. Her column was quite judgmental which is, as a Christian - or whatever she now wants to be called because she is so offended by that term - not an authority we've been granted by Christ. Especially on those of the faith. She is not responsible for the actions of other Christians, past, present, or future. She, like all of us who follow Christ, is called to love God with all her heart, soul, and might and her neighbor as herself. Nothing more. Nothing less. Leave the shortcomings and perceived failures of others to God.

Let's see. Maybe it is time for the Rev. Smith to take the beam out of her own eye before looking for that speck in her neighbor's eye. Her column was quite judgmental which is, as a Christian - or whatever she now wants to be called because she is so offended by that term - not an authority we've been granted by Christ. Especially on those of the faith. She is not responsible for the actions of other Christians, past, present, or future. She, like all of us who follow Christ, is called to love God with all her heart, soul, and might and her neighbor as herself. Nothing more. Nothing less. Leave the shortcomings and perceived failures of others to God.

"And what about killing, in any circumstance, does God condone?"

I like to kill, but I don't like it when people kill. Ever read Genesis? I pushed it into Moses's skull for a reason.

This, what you say, "Immediately, I recoil, because most times when people say that phrase, it is said with a sense of arrogance and superiority. When I hear those four words, I think not of kindness and love, but of bullying, judgmentalism, exclusivity, unforgiveness, cruelty and hypocrisy." has a simple explanation.

Did you ever wonder if it's really God they're using as their license? Christians call the being in the burning bush God, (Exodus). They say IT was the father of Jesus and thus declare Jesus to be the son of God. Is the being in the burning bush really God? Isn't that an interesting question that could explain why Christians are so bullying etc?

There are three possibilities. The being they call God is God. IT was actually an angel that wants to be God. The whole burning bush tale is just that, a tale and therefore the promotion of the Bible as God's word is a hoax.

Heretofore we have limited our speculation to either one believes IT was God or one is an atheist. The third possibility is for real simply because it is possible.

In case you don't already know, anyone who is anyone knows including every member of just about every government around the world, the Bible is a proved hoax. Evidence has been found in the archaeological record good enough to stand up in an impartial court presuming an impartial court can be found. It's on the Internet and being reviewed by profusely no doubt. Along with it is an essay that shows the being in the burning bush was actually the angel Lucifer who attempted to throw God out of heaven and take over heaven.

The URL to the Internet site is censored here for reasons I'm sure you understand, (freedom to present other opinions has limits). The big money comes to those who lead the multitudes to the kingdom of hell. That Internet site is a dot org with the name hoax-buster.

The most likely explanation for why Christians act the way the do is because the being in the burning bush came from hell and not heaven as advertised. A little more circumstantial evidence to say the least.

Dear Susan,

Thanks for the guest article. You are making good points, but points that few will face. AS Burns said: " O wouldd some power the giftie gie us -- to see ourselves as ithers see us."

Just as the Nazis desecrated the swatiska and it can no longer be used, The term Christian has been desecrated by, naturally, Christians and can no loner be used.

The term "faith" has also been desecrated. Wheres it once meant trust and steadfastness, loyalty. Now it means membership in an exclusive group that believes in the supernatural and disapproval of others.

If Jesus saw self designated Christians today: with megachurches [popularly and appropriately called "Six Flags Over Jesus"], praying in public in schools, at football games and on TV when he specifically taught to go pray in private - he would take off his belt like he did to the moneychangers.

Whereas he taught about the importance of humility, the poor and the prodigal son and said: "let him who is without sin among you cast the first stone" - christians are now jokingly called "stone-throwers" by others.

Christianity has become a public religion and has no connection to the man who taught us what a rare pearl each of us is and what great risks we could take for each other - even death.

All that is left is a bunch of cowardly stone throwers.

Smallpiece,

"The main reason most of us believe in the 'truth' of God is because it has been drummed into our heads since we were little kids. It results in life-long hypnosis; and an inability to consider outside views, ie.,a different belief, or no belief at all"

---> I'm curious how you would explain the millions of Christians who had little or no Christian upbringing and still gave themselves to Christ. Or more puzzling, the millions of Christians who grew up in the American public school system and graduated from a public university, all taught by liberal, left-leaning teachers/professors, and STILL clung to their personal beliefs.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

GOD IS ONE OF MANS GREAT INVENTIONS

If God does not condone killing, why on earth would He construct a divine plan in which mankind can never be saved unless they kill? Seems to me He not only condones killing, it's the only way to get to his kingdom!

To HMMMMMM - It seems like you simply didn't get it. The self-righteous tone in your posts is EXACTLY the point of today's article.

It's not often I find myself agreeing wholeheartedly with those of 'faith.' but today's article is DEAD ON.

I have no problems with those who take their faith seriously, and don't mash it in the face of others. Unfortunately, folks of that ilk seem to be a dying breed.

Calling oneself a Christian is calling oneself a believer in a superhuman Sky-God, a believer in the supernatural, and a believer in life after death; despite no evidence to support such irrational beliefs.

Isn't it time we had the great debate? The debate on whether there really is, or really isn't a God,etc? Or do we go on believing such nonsense forever because we are afraid that folks couldn't handle the truth?

Brambleton, looks like you're one of the masses who've missed the big lesson here. Jesus was one of the most "left-leaning" persons ever born. What makes you think "left-leaning teachers/professors" are not teaching kids in perfect harmony with what Christ taught? Help the poor, feed the hungry, foresake earthly riches, don't kill others. Wow, man, radical!

Brambleton

You comment;
" I'm curious how you would explain the millions of Christians who had little or no Christian upbringing and still gave themselves to Christ. Or more puzzling, the millions of Christians who grew up in the American public school system and graduated from a public university, all taught by liberal, left-leaning teachers/professors, and STILL clung to their personal beliefs."

In a word...Osmosis.

"I am a Christian," is said with a sense of arrogance and superiority.

This is so last millenium. In Europe in the year 1000, a civilized person was defined by being Christian. Fortunately, some definitions of what is civilized have evolved since then. Unfortunately, many people are uncomfortable, even fearful, in a world that changes. Not that there was anything wrong with Christianity at first, but now, when it conflicts so radically with what we have come to understand as reality, it is only ridiculous to assume superiority from such beliefs. The problem is that no complete and consistent set of beliefs has yet emerged to replace the old ones.

"Isn't it time we had the great debate? The debate on whether there really is, or really isn't a God,etc? Or do we go on believing such nonsense forever because we are afraid that folks couldn't handle the truth?"

I am that I am.

"There's a tremendous amount of calumny in this column. Fortunately there's also a tremendous amount of silliness, which allows me to conclude that Rev. Smith is not really responsbile for the wild accusations that she throws out against her brothers and sisters in Christ. It's a good thing, too, because calumny is a grave sin, but being a fool is not."

But calling someone a fool IS a sin. Matthew 5:22

"There's a tremendous amount of calumny in this column. Fortunately there's also a tremendous amount of silliness, which allows me to conclude that Rev. Smith is not really responsbile for the wild accusations that she throws out against her brothers and sisters in Christ. It's a good thing, too, because calumny is a grave sin, but being a fool is not."

But calling someone a fool IS a sin. Matthew 5:22

"There's a tremendous amount of calumny in this column. Fortunately there's also a tremendous amount of silliness, which allows me to conclude that Rev. Smith is not really responsible for the wild accusations that she throws out against her brothers and sisters in Christ. It's a good thing, too, because calumny is a grave sin, but being a fool is not."

But calling someone a fool IS a sin. Matthew 5:22

response to AK

"There's a tremendous amount of calumny in this column. Fortunately there's also a tremendous amount of silliness, which allows me to conclude that Rev. Smith is not really responsible for the wild accusations that she throws out against her brothers and sisters in Christ. It's a good thing, too, because calumny is a grave sin, but being a fool is not."

But calling someone a fool IS a sin. Matthew 5:22

response to AK

"There's a tremendous amount of calumny in this column. Fortunately there's also a tremendous amount of silliness, which allows me to conclude that Rev. Smith is not really responsible for the wild accusations that she throws out against her brothers and sisters in Christ. It's a good thing, too, because calumny is a grave sin, but being a fool is not."

But calling someone a fool IS a sin. Matthew 5:22

THANK YOU REV. SMITH IT IS GOOD TO HEAR FROM SOMEONE THAT HEARS WHAT GOD IS SAYING AND NOT AFRAID TO SPREAD THE GOOD NEWS.

Brambleton wrote: ---> I'm curious how you would explain the millions of Christians who had little or no Christian upbringing and still gave themselves to Christ.

1) Constantine.
2) Missionaryies scaring people that were living happily about their damned souls.
3) Soup kitchens trading soup for religion.
4) The Pope being the leader of Europe for centuries.
5) The inquisition.
6) A few good churches.

Brambleton wrote: --->Or more puzzling, the millions of Christians who grew up in the American public school system and graduated from a public university, all taught by liberal, left-leaning teachers/professors, and STILL clung to their personal beliefs.

Please tell me which professors at which universities teach that God does not exist? And even if they did, I think you are placing way too much ability in their hands to sway a student's beliefs. Remember, during the 60s the students, left leaning students, set fire to a few universities, and it was not out of respect for their professors I can assure you.

Where do you serve?

I want to go there.

You are EXACTLY CORRECT!
This is likely the most forthcoming and honest article from a christian pastor that I've ever read.

However I must makeone comment... It is the EVANGELICAL FUNDAMENTALISTS that are the cutting edge vanguard of un-chistian behavior.

...And people like the poster "HMMMMM" who are their enablers.

Lavdad2 wrote:

"But calling someone a fool IS a sin. Matthew 5:22"

Good attempt at proof-texting, but there Jesus was talking about calling someone a fool in anger.

Besides, later in Matthew, Jesus was quite comfortable with calling fools "fools" Mt 23:17.

I stand by my characterization: I'm not going to condemn Rev. Smith for her words. She said them out of ignorance and a failure to think carefully. She's foolish, not evil.

Dear God:

It's nice that you dropped in here, but WHERE THE HELL HAVE YOU BEEN? All kinds of awful sh*t has been going on down here for centuries (nay, millenia!) and we could have used your personal intervention many, many times. Just click around on the WaPo site here and you'll see tons of places your intervention is needed NOW. Free will is nice and all that, but a little paternal guidance would be more than welcome. And please, no more of that that old stuff about not eating shellfish and boiling the calf in its mother's milk and men laying with men as with women - we've gone WAY beyond that stuff - just take a look at some scientific websites and child custody cases and genocide records and you'll see what I mean. It's been so long since we've actually SEEN you down here that we've figured out that "love is all you need" and we're all family. Some people haven't gotten the message, however, and they're acting as though they are the final arbiters as to what they can and can't do, and they sure aren't following the "golden rule" - it's more like "do unto others before they get a chance to do unto you, because they're out to get you". Somebody came up with the idea "don't sweat the small stuff", and considering how much really bad stuff is going on down here, the idea sure seems like a good one to me.

I figure that life begins at conception, but could you please settle this once and for all? And what about capital punishment? Some crimes against people, particularly the young and the really old, and crimes that involve torture and stuff, sure cry out for the death penalty, but what do YOU say? There is so much need down here that we could sure use the money it takes to house, clothe, feed and tend to these violent criminals for people who sure seem more deserving. What do you say? And what about condoms? That guy in Rome seems to have a thing against them, but they don't really do any harm to you plan, do they? Lord knows (oops - sorry - it's just a figure of speech I use to suggest what I've always figured you'd have to say if I could hear your voice)... anyway, surely there are plenty of people on earth already and a little non-procreative sex isn't such a bad thing, really, if it frees us up to take better care of the ones we've already got, right? And what about gay people adopting kids and getting married and stuff? There are lots of kids who could use parents because they don't have any, or the ones they have ought to be locked up for abusing their kids; and there are lots of people who just aren't all that into the opposite sex, but they deserve love too, don't they? I mean the kind of love that makes you soup when you're sick and visits you in the hospital and gets to have your stuff after you die (most of which is usually just junk anyway, dontcha know)

I'm rally glad you stopped by to check in, but as I said, we could really use some new guidance down here, "from the horse's mouth", as it were.

Thanks.

Mark

Oh, please. Stop the hand-wringing about how no one is living up to God's standards. Be a man and suck it up and try to live more like Christ yourself and help others to do the same. No crying!

God:

p.s. I forgot a bunch of other stuff that we could use your help on, like war, and AIDS, and genocide (though I did mention that), and kids and people starving in Africa and not even having clean water to drink (let alone raspberry lemon-drop martinis and big-screen TVs and Wiii or X-box or whatever all that stuff is called), and communicable diseases and racial hatred and lots of practical stuff. But you already know about all that, don't you? I thought so. Take care and keep in touch.

Mark

To: Reverend Susan K. Smith,

I respectfully disagree w/mostly everything you stated in your post. First, why would you generalize about Christians. When I state to someone I am a Christian it is not in a superior attitude, it's about them knowing alot about me from the introduction e.g., so tell me a little about yourself: do I state; well I have a son, and I do this or that: My life is Christ like it should be for most "true Christians". In addition, I consider most "professing" christians are totally into this new "I'm saved by grace' and we should just love one another: it's almost like a "hippie mentality". First, grace comes through repentance not in making a decision for Christ. In addition, most including some pastors and also reverends distort scripture; take one case: roles of women in the church. Also, the word "sexual immorality" doesnt mean promiscuity: the deinition from any biblical concordand or lexicon states: fornication. I addition, I wonder if you "evangelize" to people with the more loving tolerant "God Loves You and Has a wonderful Plan for your Life. We are always considered judgmental: Homosexuality is more a sin than fornication, adultery, idolatry, etc. I believe that you are part of the tolerant, intolerant "new Christiantity: Here's an exerpt from John McArthur's take on this new, unsaved, evangelical way of preaching the gospel: Post-modernism's veneration of tolerance is its most obvious feature. But the version of "tolerance" peddled by post-modernists is actually a twisted and dangerous corruption of true virtue.
Incidentally, tolerance is never mentioned in the Bible as a virtue, except in the sense of patience, forbearance, and longsuffering (cf. Ephesians 4:2.) In fact, the contemporary notion of tolerance is a pathetically feeble concept compared to the love Scripture commands Christians to show even to their enemies. Jesus said, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you" (Luke 6:27-28; cf. vv. 29-36).
When our grandparents spoke of tolerance as a virtue, they had something like that in mind. The word used to mean respecting people and treating them kindly even when we believe they are wrong. But the post-modern notion of tolerance means we must never regard anyone else's opinions as "wrong." Biblical tolerance is for people; post-modern tolerance is for ideas.
Accepting every belief as equally valid is hardly a real virtue, but it is about the kind of only "virtue" post-modernism knows anything about. Traditional virtues (including humility, self control, and chastity) are openly scorned -- and even regarded as transgressions -- in the world of post-modernism.
Predictably, the beatification of post-modern tolerance has had a disastrous effect on real virtue in our society. In this age of tolerance, what was once forbidden is now encouraged. What was once universally deemed immoral is now celebrated. Marital infidelity and divorce have been normalized. Profanity is commonplace. Abortion, homosexuality, and moral perversions of all kinds are championed by large advocacy groups and enthusiastically promoted by the popular media. The post-modern notion of "tolerance" is systematically turning genuine virtue on its head.
Just about the only remaining taboo is the naive and politically incorrect notion that another person's "alternative lifestyle," religion, or different perspective is wrong.
One major exception to that rule stands out starkly: it is OK for post-modernists to be intolerant of those who claim they know the truth -- particularly biblical Christians. In fact, those who fancy themselves the leading advocates of tolerance today are often the most outspoken opponents of evangelical Christianity.
Look on the Web, for example, and see what is being said by the self styled champions of "religious tolerance." What you'll find is a great deal of intolerance for Bible based Christianity. In fact, some of the most bitterly anti-Christian material on the World Wide Web can be found at sites supposedly promoting religious tolerance.
Why is that? Why does authentic biblical Christianity find such ferocious opposition from people who think they are paragons of tolerance? It is because the truth-claims of Scripture -- and particularly Jesus' claim to be the only way to God -- are diametrically opposed to the fundamental presuppositions of the post-modern mind. The Christian message represents a death blow to the post-modernist worldview.
But as long as Christians are being duped or intimidated into softening the bold claims of Christ and widening the narrow road, the church will make no headway against post-modernism. We need to recover the distinctiveness of the gospel. We need to regain our confidence in the power of God's truth. And we need to proclaim boldly that Christ is the only true hope for the people of this world.
That may not be what people want to hear in this pseudo-tolerant age of post-modernism. But it is true nonetheless. And precisely because it is true and the gospel of Christ is the only hope for a lost world, it is all the more urgent that we rise above all the voices of confusion in the world and say so.

I believe many of the examples the Rev. put out there the "where did that get that God..." are Old Testament things that were adopted by Christians. Jackson wanting to kill Indians, Crusades, slavery etc...read what happens in Joshua, just those type things are ordered by God. Stuff to the effect of kill every man, woman, and child of pagan nations. Kill all the livestock do not keep any of them alive...(I'm paraphrasing). Many fundmentalist churchs use the OT way too much and leave out the NT love stuff of Jesus. It's not like they make it up, the OT has many brutal dictates by Yahweh himself.

As a born-again Christian, I can say Rev. Smith's post is right on target.

The great commission is to create disciples, but the hate-filled acts of many so-called Christians drive people away.

They claim to love their neighbor, yet they support wars that kill tens of thousands of women and childen in Iraq.

They oppose abortion, but let children die because of a lack of health care and nutrition after they're born. To tie health care to income is to totally renounce the teachings of Jesus.

They use Christianity as a 'get-out-of-hell' free card that allows them to do whatever they want, secure in the belief that they'll get to heaven, while the most righteous members of other religions (say, Ghandi) go to hell.

One thing I'm not sure has been noted here is many Christians do not believe that women should be in authority over men.

Rev. Smith would not be allowed to be a Reverend in many (most?) Christian churches, regardless of what God's call might be for her.

I liked this article so much I forwarded it to my woman pastor, who brought me to God after I swore I would never enter a church again after being treated the most cruelly I have ever been treated, by a preacher who was interested only in "saving" people.

As a born-again Christian, I can say Rev. Smith's post is right on target.

The great commission is to create disciples, but the hate-filled acts of many so-called Christians drive people away.

They claim to love their neighbor, yet they support wars that kill tens of thousands of women and childen in Iraq.

They oppose abortion, but let children die because of a lack of health care and nutrition after they're born. To tie health care to income is to totally renounce the teachings of Jesus.

They use Christianity as a 'get-out-of-hell' free card that allows them to do whatever they want, secure in the belief that they'll get to heaven, while the most righteous members of other religions (say, Ghandi) go to hell.

One thing I'm not sure has been noted here is many Christians do not believe that women should be in authority over men.

Rev. Smith would not be allowed to be a Reverend in many (most?) Christian churches, regardless of what God's call might be for her.

I liked this article so much I forwarded it to my woman pastor, who brought me to God after I swore I would never enter a church again after being treated the most cruelly I have ever been treated, by a preacher who was interested only in "saving" people.

per my post below: CORRECTION: HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN JUST LIKE THE REST. SIN IS SIN AND IT DOESN'T GIVE ANYONE THE RIGHT TO LOOK DOWN ON ANOTHER. WE ARE TO LOVE LIKE CHRIST LOVES THE CHURCH, HOWEVER, HOW DO YOU WITNESS TO SOMEONE. MOST IN THE CHURCH TODAY EVEN THE LEADERS ARE UNSAVED AS WE MOST ARE SO BUSY BEING TOLERANT AND BEING AFRAID TO PREACH THE WHOLE COUNSEL THAT THE "GOSPEL" THAT IS BEING PREACHED TODAY IS NOT THE "GOSPEL" ANYMORE. IT'S VERY VERY SAD...GRACE WITHOUT REPENTANCE LEADS TO SPIRITUAL DEATH AND THAT'S WHAT BEING PREACHED. WHEN YOU ARE GIVING PREACHING THE GOSPEL, YOU CAN'T LEAVE OUT THE REASON FOR THE GOSPEL, WITHOUT HOLINESS, NO MAN SHALL SEE THE LORD. GOD WILL JUDGE HIS CHURCH FOR THINKING MAN'S WAY IS BETTER THAN HIS...

what's sad is most people are trying to use's God's word against others...I love the Lord and Jesus, but too often I find that He is being used for personal gain.

"I respectfully disagree w/mostly everything you stated in your post. First, why would you generalize about Christians. When I state to someone I am a Christian it is not in a superior attitude,"

Really, Angela. I find it interesting you say that.

Frankly, the generalization is true enough, when it comes to the public world, A Christian is often a nice and good person. 'Christians' are aggressive, self-righteous, defamatory, oppressive, and overbearing.

It's pretty standard practice you guys hear from someone else, 'You're hurting us!' you say, 'No we're not, cause we're not that kind of people. How dare you say I'm hurting you? *smack* '

Plenty more Names out there, though.

God:

Sorry I keep adding to this - there's just so much I want to say, and it's hard to get it all down at the same time, especially when I'm trying to finish that project at work I told you about yesterday.

This WaPo article is about "Christians giving God a bad name". If you read some of the comments here you can see what inspired the article - there are a lot of religious people who have really good intentions but who sometimes seem to overdo the scolding of others who do or don't do what the former think the latter should not do or do; ... you know what I mean.

Anyway, you can see that people are getting really ticked off at each other over what you want us to do and not do - a lot of which, as I said before, seems like "small stuff" to me, when you consider famine, and disease and genocide and the really bad things that you'd think we could take care of, with all the wealth and talent and good things you've given us down here. Is there something you can do while you're here to help people learn better how to help other people and not be so selfish (and stupid - really, God, a lot of people down here are just stupid! - or maybe it's just selfish or "scarred" by their experiences; whatever - it comes across in practical terms as stupid)?

I'll try to leave you alone for a while so you can gather your thoughts and get back to me, OK?

Mark

p.s Sorry about that rant about "stupid people" - I'm still working on that "patience" business, and I really don't have enough time to take care of everything I've got to do at work and at home AND hang around waiting for people who should know better to get with the program. Mea culpa, OK?

I once thought of myself as a Christian, but no more. Perhaps I never was. In any event, I totally agree with nearly everything Susan Smith wrote. I can only disagree with her conclusion that Christ might enjoy the music, candles and ritual. I don't think Christ was ever into ritual. Also I think he would find the music, with the performers projected on large tv screens, and dressed in designer jeans a turn off.

I once thought of myself as a Christian, but no more. Perhaps I never was. In any event, I totally agree with nearly everything Susan Smith wrote. I can only disagree with her conclusion that Christ might enjoy the music, candles and ritual. I don't think Christ was ever into ritual. Also I think he would find the music, with the performers projected on large tv screens, and dressed in designer jeans a turn off.

Mark In Irvine:

Absolutely wonderful. Loved your posting. Keep up the good work. One of the best sarcastic posting I have read. I was thinking the same thing but didn't have the time to type it all out.

Mark: The short answer is that I deemed this planet a failure. After the millionth time that someone killed in my name (not to mention bigotry, hatred, and using my name in vain), I got fed up with it and created life on another planet. This time, I'll get things right.

So, even after I left your planet to you humans, and even after my son went down there as one last chance to set things straight, you still blame me for your problems? I'M THROUGH WITH YOU ALL.

I mean, jesus, can't you all even learn to take care of your own?

Angela said: "But the post-modern notion of tolerance means we must never regard anyone else's opinions as "wrong." Biblical tolerance is for people; post-modern tolerance is for ideas.
Accepting every belief as equally valid is hardly a real virtue, but it is about the kind of only "virtue" post-modernism knows anything about. Traditional virtues (including humility, self control, and chastity) are openly scorned -- and even regarded as transgressions -- in the world of post-modernism"
-----------------------------------

Angela: you are making the argument that YOUR truth is always right- and that other people's truth is wrong, if it differs from your truth. When it comes to religion, there is no absolute truth about which religion is virtuous and which are not- because people differ in what they consider the "TRUTH" when it comes to religion.

You have absolutely no basis to argue, for example, that Christianity is any more true than Judaism or Buddhism- you simply can't prove it by facts that apply to all religions and atheists, too. You have FAITH that your religious beliefs are the TRUTH, but so do the followers of other religions.

Please consider how your view of truth in religious beliefs, and therefore virtue, is not true for everyone. For example, I am a good person who follows the Golden Rule more than most Christians I know. However, I don't believe that homosexuality is sinful. I believe it is natural, and is evident in animals aside from humans- such as Chimpanzees and birds. Accordingly, since I do not see any harm resulting from being gay or lesbian, I do not see it as non-virtuous or a "sin." I would never say that your view of the same subject is untrue to you, but I have the same right as you do to my religious beliefs -- you have no business forcing your religious views on me, anymore than I should force mine on you. Virtue requires respect for that principle, as much as any other.

I've got a suggestion for Ms. Smith. If she doesn't like identifying as a Christian, maybe she should join the frisbeetarians. Not only would she feel better, it would cause a whole lot less confusion as to who really believes and abides by the teachings of Christ (ALL of them -- including His teaching that He is the only way to heaven -- exclusivity!!).

Jeff, I didn't say my way is the only way: Jesus said HIS way is the only way. Also, I quoted John MacArthur who is a senior pastor of a bible-believing, whole counsel of God teacher who is absolutely not the norm as most believers are so afraid and ashamed of the gospel, or they don't read their bibles in the Holy Spirit. I for one, am saddened by what Christianity is defined as: not what the Bible states. Be that as it may, we are called to live a holy, set apart life and love those who curse, persecute and mock us for Christ. Blessed are those who are persecuted for Him as they will see His face. That's enough for me.

May you know love and peace only found through agreeing w/God about our human depravity and not through our man-made compass. Lord, have mercy on Us....

Like neocons hijacked conservatism in the US, neochristians hijacked Christianity by cherry-picking Leviticus for their political agendas. Come to think of it, many of these people are one in the same.

"I honestly do not think that if Jesus were to grace us with a visit today that he would recognize any of us, in any of the literally thousands of Christian denominations that are in existence today.

He might enjoy the music and the candles and the rituals and all of that .... but at the end of the day, I don't know that many or any of us would be invited to leave with Him."

--------

If Jesus were to grace us with a visit today, he'd likely go to a synagogue. He WAS Jewish, y'know?

"I honestly do not think that if Jesus were to grace us with a visit today that he would recognize any of us, in any of the literally thousands of Christian denominations that are in existence today.

He might enjoy the music and the candles and the rituals and all of that .... but at the end of the day, I don't know that many or any of us would be invited to leave with Him."

--------

If Jesus were to grace us with a visit today, he'd likely go to a synagogue. He WAS Jewish, y'know?

I enjoyed the piece. America has used Gods name for everything. I'm sure that(God)would not be pleased with the way we treat each other, or utilize his commandments. We must continue our battle against a world full of Sin!

I completely agree and hope that this article will inspire us as Christians to take more of a stand towards truly living as Christ would have us live. More often than not, people who claim themselves to be religious try to build themselves up and bring other people down on the facade of being "saved" but they do not truly go by the teachings of the word. If Christians just stopped when they tried to point the finger at someone else and truly thought about the teachings of the bible, we would be a lot better off, and more people of all shapes and sizes would be brought closer to God. Isn't that the point of being a Christian? We as religious people get too caught up in condemning others as sinners for not being like us, yet even the act itself of judging anyone is a sin. Christians don't want to focus on that. We need to stop worrying about ridding the world of gay people and start worrying about the homeless population. We need to stop focusing on the war for oil and start focusing about getting children off the streets and educating them to be our future leaders. Jesus didn't create the separation within religion, people did that. I don't think we should boast about being Christians but be humble as Christ was, and focus on our duties as children of God. After all, no matter what religion, denomination, or faith, we are a all children of a supreme creator and we have an obligation to help others and bring more people closer to Him by our faith, not turn them away with arrogance.

I enjoyed the piece. America has used Gods name for everything. I'm sure that(God)would not be pleased with the way we treat each other, or utilize his commandments. We must continue our battle against a world full of Sin!

Shorter Version of Susan Smiths (wonderful) essay:

"Christians are the leading cause of atheism in the United States."

Don't worry, I have a handy example:

Angela says-

HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN JUST LIKE THE REST. SIN IS SIN AND IT DOESN'T GIVE ANYONE THE RIGHT TO LOOK DOWN ON ANOTHER. WE ARE TO LOVE LIKE CHRIST LOVES THE CHURCH, HOWEVER, HOW DO YOU WITNESS TO SOMEONE. MOST IN THE CHURCH TODAY EVEN THE LEADERS ARE UNSAVED AS WE MOST ARE SO BUSY BEING TOLERANT AND BEING AFRAID TO PREACH THE WHOLE COUNSEL THAT THE "GOSPEL" THAT IS BEING PREACHED TODAY IS NOT THE "GOSPEL" ANYMORE. IT'S VERY VERY SAD...GRACE WITHOUT REPENTANCE LEADS TO SPIRITUAL DEATH AND THAT'S WHAT BEING PREACHED. WHEN YOU ARE GIVING PREACHING THE GOSPEL, YOU CAN'T LEAVE OUT THE REASON FOR THE GOSPEL, WITHOUT HOLINESS, NO MAN SHALL SEE THE LORD. GOD WILL JUDGE HIS CHURCH FOR THINKING MAN'S WAY IS BETTER THAN HIS...

Now, I'm sure Angela is a very-nice-person but...

as a bible literate Godless heathen it has long had me frustrated by all the pious Judaist hypocracy evinced in public discourse the last couple decades... The all cross and no Christ faux Christian it turns out has been engineered by the media and Jesuit invaders who's intention has been to bastardize and marginalize the teachings of Christ, and advance confusion and baloney...
No true Christian could support the apartheid state of Israel, yet here we are....

Folks,
In the last post by Ms. Smith on Sally Quinn's Catholic Communion, Ms. Smith claimed to know the mind of God and that God did not give a hoot about Catholic Communion. Now it turns out that Ms. Smith also claims she can read regular people's minds:

"I hate it when I hear someone say, "I am a Christian." Immediately, I recoil, because most times when people say that phrase, it is said with a sense of arrogance and superiority. When I hear those four words, I think not of kindness and love, but of bullying, judgmentalism, exclusivity, unforgiveness, cruelty and hypocrisy.
"

This is more likely not mind-reading, but pre-judgment--that is to say: prejudice.

Gluttony is a sin?

Holy cow! Why didn't you say so sooner? We could like this obesity problem in a few months by telling folks they're goin' to hell if they don't stop eating so much food. Or so much bad food. Or so much food that's bad for 'em. You know. Idea needs a little tweaking, that's for sure.

You haven't lived until you've been proselytized on a plane flight. Oughtta be a law against it. I say "thanks" and order a beer from the flight attendant.

A story is told that a non-Jew came to the famous Rabbi Hillel and asked him to teach the entire 5 books of the Torah while standing on one leg.

Rabbi Hillel thought about it and then said "Love your neighbor as you love yourself."

It is rare, but sometimes religion can be so simple.

What is nice about this teaching is that if there is one thing about religion that one needs to know it is this. All other commandments follow from this.

If Jesus were to have a primary message, it should be that. It's disapointing when other actions done in his name contradict this first tennet.

I enjoy visiting this site because of the illiterate lunatics who post here, but I also hate to think that they vote in elections.

When I hear people say, "I'm a Christian," I think they really mean, "I'm a fundamentalist. I can't spell, I don't capitalize proper nouns, and I'm secretly terrified of, and openly hostile to, people who aren't like me."

Otherwise, I would expect the person to say, "I'm a Methodist," or "I belong to the First Presbyterian Church," or "I attend the Episcopalian Church on the corner over there," or "My family is Catholic."

I have to add that the person who is posting under the name of "God" is blaspheming, although he doesn't seem to know it.

angela'

As a Muslim I am obliged to tell you that you have it wrong and that you are in fact an infidel and should put down your Bible and read the Holy Koran whitch is God's (PBUH) book and the only Truth.
It is no fault of your own that you are in error.
It is your culture that is misleading you, but you still have a chance if you read the Holy Book.

If there was a God or Jesus and he came back to Earth and looked at what we have done with the place and each other, he would destroy the Earth and start over again somewhere far, far, away.

Andrew's version of the story is different from the way I learned it (in Hebrew school). Hillel's reply was:

"What is hateful to you, do not do to another. The rest is commentary. Go forth and study."

In any event, note that there is no mention of a deity; in fact, one need not believe in anything (or anyone) supernatural to follow it. Could it be that God and religion are irrelevant to conducting oneself in a civilized (or righteous)manner? Hmmmmm.......

"I have to add that the person who is posting under the name of "God" is blaspheming, although he doesn't seem to know it."

I can't blaspheme against myself. That's just crazy talk.

"What is hateful to you, do not do to another. The rest is commentary. Go forth and study."

That works for me.

Thanks, Anon. While I was having fun with it, I'm serious about it all.

I'm always amazed at how people can be so seemingly oblivious to the inhumanity of persons to persons, and to all the suffering in the world, and let themselves be caught up in all the name-calling and line-in-the-sand drawing that goes on here at On Faith. None of that seems to me to be what life is all about or how we ought to live.

When I hear or read something form "On Faith" I can only think of dear Sally Quinn's ignorance prade-ing itself as belief.

Self-proclaimed "Christians" are usually from the Religious Reich.

They support Chimpy and his lying war.

They support the US torture gulag.

They support Chimpy vetoing every single bill that would help Americans.

They support the destruction of our environment for more oil.

Those idiots are NOT Christians.

They do NOT follow the teachings of Christ.

Ms. Smith,

Bravo! Your message should be repeated on a loop throughout America for a solid year. Thank you for your clarity. You are giving Christians a good name (and that's a hard thing for me to even write).

so you are one of those people who thinks being a Christian means do whatever feels good.
here is a flash for you. Jesus had limits and He had no problem telling us what they were. and yes, why think that if you are a Christian you are inferior to those who are not Christians? every other religion considers their religion superior but it is only Christians that are arrogant in so thinking.
and i read the bible and I cant find a single place where Jesus said your sins are forgiven so go out and do it again.

Wow. That was basically a rambling rant against Christianity by a Pastor no less. There was not even an attempt to be evenhanded. The rant ignores all of the positive benefits of Christianity, such as ending slavery.

Are there Christians who give God a bad name. Absolutely and there always will. But that does not diminish the overall positive impact that Christianity has had on culture. From promoting the value of human life, ending slavery, taking care of the underprivileged, education, etc. etc.

I grew up in a Christian home (may would call fundamentalist) and around many committed fundamentalist Christians (my father was a Pastor). I have met and been around countless wonderful Christian people who are kind loving, humble, and honest. Sure I met a few bad eggs, but that doesn't count out the rest.

The author writes, "I stay in the pastorate is because I feel an obligation to teach a kinder Christianity, a Christianity where people respect and care for each other, rather than destroy each other in the name of God."

And the folks you're demeaning feel an obligation to teach a two thousand year old Christianity resistant to the political whims of the moment, a Christianity where people respect and care for each other, rather than execute the helpless in the name of feminism."

TOM3 - congratulations, you are a thoughtless bigot. Strong work.

"I am not an accident" is a fundamental claim of monotheism. And mature monotheism realizes that if I am not an accident, then other human beings are also not accidents. Hence, the Golden Rule, in its Jewish and Christian forms.

This fundamental claim is incompatible with an abortionist mentality, which regards the unborn as not loved by God in the sense in which the mother is loved by God.

This column is really drivel of the very worst sort. I would submit for your consideration the possibility that many "feminist pastors" are either incapable of logical consistency (an argument insulting to women's intelligence), or disingenuous. By disingenuous I mean that they do not hold the historical beliefs of the religious institutions to which they attach themselves. Their attachment is the result of an agenda, and the only place "God" has in that agenda is as a proper noun that can be used to manipulate people.

I worked in the mental health field for a number of years. During that time I became quite certain that religious fanaticism in any guise is a mental illness, or a symptom of mental illness.
One cannot expect an insane person to behave in a sane manner.

Ahmed tells Angela:

“As a Muslim I am obliged to tell you that you have it wrong and that you are in fact an infidel and should put down your Bible and read the Holy Koran which is God's (PBUH) book and the only Truth.”

I have read that book many times and found it to be replete with contradictions, historical blunders, scientific heresies, mathematical mistakes, grammatical errors and ethical fallacies. A book full of fairy tales about demons, black-eyed nymphs, devils, jinn and angels with thousands of wings. A book telling of talking ants, birds, donkeys and stones. A book that is a compilation of legends and rituals from Persian Zoroaster religions‘, Sabaens and ancient Arab pagan religions with embellished stories from the Old Testament, the Talmud and some from the New Testament. I found every page in to be an assault on human rationality and an insult to any person's intelligence. Is that what you mean by “the only Truth”?

Ally writes:

"There are so many excuses today as to why one might not want to become a Christian, or have left the "faith."

God has made it crystal clear (His Spirit reveals truth) that we have no more excuses for rejecting being reconciled back to Him.

No more excuses - run to Christ before it's too late!"

You've got it backwards, Ally.

It's today's religious folks who are the ones with the poor excuses.

You see, one can't blame the ancients for believing in gods, magic and the supernatural. They didn't know any better. They lived in a fearful world where most children died before age 10 and 30 was considered a ripe old age. Looking for an explanation of the world around them, they turned to their imaginations and allowed their worst fears and the worst fears of those around them to drive their evaluation of the world.

Through their fears, they invented religion. Religion was our first and worst attempt at science.

So, I can't blame them.

You, on the other hand, have no such excuse. You hold no brief for your studied ignorance and your hapless embrace of the mythical. You see, science, ration and logic have explained away the childish fears of religion and revealed mysteries and wonders that are far, far beyond the limited imaginings of our earlier, ignorant, religious selves.

So, drop the pretenses, Ally, and embrace the age in which you live. The world loves nothing better than a convert to reality.

Mr. Mark, it was once the mark of an educated person, that they had read the best arguments which disagreed with their own, and could engage those arguments. Might I suggest an encounter with Hans Kung?

No possible empirical evidence can be brought to bear on the question, "Does God exist?" Some would say, following the early Wittgenstein, that as a consequence of this, all statements about God - by believers *and* by atheists - are nonsense. Others might follow the more mature Wittgenstein, who saw such statements as expressing a *stance* toward the flux of experience. Kung argues that neither the theistic stance nor the atheistic stance is rational, and neither is irrational.

Where does that leave you?

"Observer:
Ms. Smith says:

"We use God to justify the most horrendous acts, and have done so throughout history. What on earth made Christians feel like God wanted them to kill Muslims during the Crusades?"

I will show you below what on earth made Christians feel like God wanted them to kill Muslims.
The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians. Did you get that or shall I repeat it?"

So all that stuff in the Bible about turning the other cheek and doing unto others and looking for the block of wood in your own eye and blessed peacemakers and blessed are the meek is just a load of crap, right?

Ultimately God makes you a Christian. And he did it before you were ever born if he did it at all. He may well not see fit to inform you of that decision on His part until much later in your life.

I enjoyed the column and have a fair degree of sympathy with the statements made.

I would add and suggest that individual character is the central issue for all of us. Not vicarious atonement.

If everyone, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist etc. focused on improving themselves first (sincerely refining their behavior and correcting in some measure their own vices & shortcomings daily), all outward problems would diminish dramatically over time.

There is no other true solution. The irony is it takes faith to believe you can be guided by something other than your ego.

Life is full of paradox. We just have to be comfortable with the fact. Then actually be consistent in living the ideals we profess to believe in.

It had been said that whatever is new in Christianity is not good, and whatever is good in Christianity is not new.

And remember that one of Jesus' teachers, Rabbi Hillel, taught: Do unto others as you would have other do unto you. All else is commentary. Now go study.

It would be very helpful if bloggers identified their religious persuasions or none. A certain pattern has emerged in the past twenty months since this forum started. The most active bloggers have been - all-religion bashers, anti- Muslims and anti-Catholics. It is not clear how many Scientologists are among the all-religion bashers. Muslims tend to join forces with Christian/Catholic bashers.

there is no god (notice no caps on the 'g').

grow up!

I hate it when I hear someone say, "I am a Christian."

Immediately, I recoil, because most times when people say that phrase, it is said with a sense of arrogance and superiority. When I hear those four words, I think not of kindness and love, but of bullying, judgmentalism, exclusivity, unforgiveness, cruelty and hypocrisy.

And that's just for starters.

Someone will say that since I feel that way, I ought not be a practicing pastor.

Maybe you're right.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Rev Smith, you ought to learn to differentiate when people say "I'm a Christian" as a mark of arrogance and when they are merely expressing their religious conviction whether they are living up to the ideals or not. In other words, learn to recognize the religious hypocrite.

Maybe you could preach more often about how Jesus condemned the religious hypocrites of his day. Any pastor who preaches hatred for any other Christian denomination is a religious hypocrite par excellence. It is useful exercise to

The number of posts proves that the paper reached its purpose: attract "religious" readers to a liberal paper.

"our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29)
Ananias and Saphira--God killed them (Acts 5)
Paul describes himself as the chief of sinners (1 Tim. 1:15)

While it's popular to be warm, fuzzy and seeker-friendly in Saddlebackdom, the fact is "strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Mt. 7:14 Romans 3:23 says that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Revelation chapter 20 describes the fate of those who do not trust Christ as their Savior. They will spend eternity in the lake of fire.
But unlike the author's prediction that Jesus would invite few to leave with Him, God "is not willing that any should perish." II Peter 3:9 Our hope is not anchored in the behavior of sinful man, but in Christ's finished work on the cross. While God continues to use frail men and women to transmit the Gospel, His promises will be fulfilled despite despite my bullying, judgmentalism, exclusivity, unforgiveness, cruelty, hypocrisy and clinging to my guns.

If you are a Christian Pastor who hates yourself and all Christians, quit hating or just quit. Do everybody a favor.

Overheard exchange in a college art class:

Brent, a self-proclaimed born-again Christian who has been going on about how wonderful it is to be "saved": "You know what religions are really way out there? The really freaky ones? Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. Boy, they are some WIERDOS."

Sue (atheist): "Ya know, you don't know whether anyone in this room is a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon. That is really offensive!"

I too cringe when someone proclaims himself a Christian.

I think this post from a Christian news blog called "The Writing on the Wall" says it best about this diabolical dilemma.

Check it out here. It spoke to me, and should to you as well:

http://hiscrivener.wordpress.com/we-should-be-living-epistles/

God bless.

Can nothing be done about the desperate ignorance of today's "Christians" about the Bible? Most of them would not know the Beatitudes from the Gettysburg Address.

Atheist here!

It's funny how many "Christians" are absolutely horrible people. They cut you off in traffic, treat you rudely at work, and mistreat their children (that's the one that always gets me). They aren't the reason I'm an atheist, but they certainly don't do anything to persuade me that "accepting Christ into their life" has done anything but make them feel they're excepted from the rules of common courtesy and social graces that the rest of us follow.

ADRASTEIA, long before Muslims did any of that, Christians had repeatedly warred over all those places. One of the Crusades sacked Constantinople and blood ran in the streets. It was hundreds of years before the Muslims could take the city.

Also, even when the Muslims took over a region, they didn't make much effort at conversion. Non-Muslims paid higher taxes, so converting everyone would reduce tax revenue.

They almost certainly treated their new subjects better than the Normans treated the Anglo-Saxons after 1066.

Also? In what is now Spain, the Jews were better off under the Muslims. The Catholics expelled them, or worse, after 1492.

john smith:
there is no god (notice no caps on the 'g').

grow up!
))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
What does God call John Smith? Ps. 14:1

Adrasomething says to me:
"So all that stuff in the Bible about turning the other cheek... is just a load of crap, right?"

Moi:
We are humans and not Jesus. We might be able to turn the other cheek once or twice, but we could not make it a standing policy, otherwise the scum of the earth would take advantage of us. Got that?

I've posted Jeff Taylor's comments below - I'll respond first.

Mr. Taylor offers a great demonstration of the uphill battle the apparently very kind and thoughtful pastor has ahead of her if she intends to help "Christians" understand Christ. His comments provide a perfect example of how scripture (for any religion, but in his case some form of Christianity) can be manipulated in the mind of the individual to justify any behavior as "righteous" or in some way having the approval of God. His comments are a verbal Rorshach test. By that I mean, virtually every thought obviously means something very important to him, but they could also mean just about anything to anyone reading them. He quotes scripture completely out of context, as if his own interpretation of them is completely obvious to everyone. I get that he sees some kind of fire and brimstone conotation to them because of his attitude and the closing bit of sarcasm. But honestly, they could all just as easily be interpreted 1000 ways, including some ways that are kind, hopeful and inspiring, rather than whatever it is he's talking about. The point is, Jeff Taylor is a good indication that the thoughtful reverend who wrote this original post might be barking up the wrong tree here. Don't try to shame Christians into comprehending the lessons of Christ. Just keep living his example. Be as as Christ. And of course, Christ was no Christian.

Here's Jeff:

The number of posts proves that the paper reached its purpose: attract "religious" readers to a liberal paper.

"our God is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29)
Ananias and Saphira--God killed them (Acts 5)
Paul describes himself as the chief of sinners (1 Tim. 1:15)

While it's popular to be warm, fuzzy and seeker-friendly in Saddlebackdom, the fact is "strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Mt. 7:14 Romans 3:23 says that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Revelation chapter 20 describes the fate of those who do not trust Christ as their Savior. They will spend eternity in the lake of fire.
But unlike the author's prediction that Jesus would invite few to leave with Him, God "is not willing that any should perish." II Peter 3:9 Our hope is not anchored in the behavior of sinful man, but in Christ's finished work on the cross. While God continues to use frail men and women to transmit the Gospel, His promises will be fulfilled despite despite my bullying, judgmentalism, exclusivity, unforgiveness, cruelty, hypocrisy and clinging to my guns.

John H tells Adriastan:

"Also, even when the Muslims took over a region, they didn't make much effort at conversion. Non-Muslims paid higher taxes, so converting everyone would reduce tax revenue."

Moi:
The Muslims did eventually convert the vast majority of Christians, but not before they did worse than that; impoverished and humiliated them. I refer you to the Omar Pact that spelled how Muslims were to treat the conquered indigenous populations.
http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kills-pact-of-umar.htm

Steve, Where is the fire and brimstone connotation in this: God "is not willing that any should perish." II Peter 3:9 Our hope is not anchored in the behavior of sinful man, but in Christ's finished work on the cross"? That sounds much better than a stimulus package.

As for context, I think it is always helpful to summarize the 1189 chapters of context before using a single verse. Perhaps you could interpret some of the verses cited (one interpretation out of the 1000 you have alluded to) to establish that God hates and punishes sin (that's just dripping with fire and brimstone), and that even the most influential writer of the New Testament considered himself the chief of sinners. In other words, we need not dwell on the failings of men, but on the sufficiency of Christ. Now that I have humbly offered one interpretation of some of the verses I have cited, I stand back in silent awe of your exposition of the remaining 999 interpretations. Please tell uncle Rick that as to contemporary music--we're down with that, dude.

Steve,

I know the censors get nervous about copy/paste, but this is right out of the Washington Post, 2/5/08, from Uncle Rick Warren himself: "People are so worried churches are going to be about conversion," he said, "but everyone has a motive. Everyone has a world view. Christianity is a world view. . . . I don't care why you do good as long as you do good." Steve, do you agree with Warren or do you agree with Romans 7? Is our righteousness as filthy rags, or is that just a fire and brimstone connotation superimposed on Isaiah 64? I know my previous post required you to expound on 999 interpretations, but please respond so I can go to bed. It's late in hillbilly country and I still have to clean my gun.

Steve,

I know the censors get nervous about copy/paste, but this is right out of the Washington Post, 2/5/08, from Uncle Rick Warren himself: "People are so worried churches are going to be about conversion," he said, "but everyone has a motive. Everyone has a world view. Christianity is a world view. . . . I don't care why you do good as long as you do good." Steve, do you agree with Warren or do you agree with Romans 7? Is our righteousness as filthy rags, or is that just a fire and brimstone connotation superimposed on Isaiah 64? I know my previous post required you to expound on 999 interpretations, but please respond so I can go to bed. It's late in hillbilly country and I still have to clean my gun.

Susan Smith wrote "Christians Give God a Bad Name".

The problem is your definition of the word Christian. First, not all who call themselves "Christians" are Christians. Catholicism and liberal Protestantism is NOT Christianity. For not knowing it, it means you yourself is NOT a Christian. And by that, using your own words, you give true Christianity a BAD name.

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." (1 Corinthians 14:34)

Spidey,

When Ms. Smith says Christians give god a bad name, you are exhibit A.

Your misogynist quote at the bottom of your last post is classic. Way to prove her point! You manage to give god, Christians, and yourself a bad name in just a few sentences.

I am ROFL!

Why do people call themselves Christians but don't believe the people who established Christianity?

Why can't they call themselves some other name if they want to have a "new" Bible?

Women can always serve God in ways which men can't do it better. I've seen lots of women serving God that way.

Observer says:
"We might be able to turn the other cheek once or twice, but we could not make it a standing policy, otherwise the scum of the earth would take advantage of us. Got that?"

Boy, you're a real sweetheart of a Christian, aren't you? "Scum of the Earth"??? And who might that be, exactly?

Also noticed that your list of Muslim incursions all took place 249-460 years prior to the retribution (Crusades). Isn't that just a bit long to carry a grudge?

My ancestors (yours, too, I'll bet) did the Native Americans dirt - stole their land; massacred a good many of them. They kept slaves, too. Should the African Americans and Native Americans (oh, and Mexicans, too, since we pushed them out of some Southwestern areas) come after us with guns blazing now? Would that be OK?

Should all peoples get out of any lands that their ancestors took by conquest and go back to wherever their ancestors came from? What if your ancestors were from several different countries? At what time period? 'Cause taken to its logical conclusion, we all end up back in Africa.

Well I guess the Muslims have it right. One has to bomb one's way into heaven. Killing 15-20 people (men,women and children) is the way to god's heart.

Well I guess the Muslims have it right. One has to bomb one's way into heaven. Killing 15-20 people (men,women and children) is the way to god's heart.

A well wrtten article and very true.

Thank you for saying this. It is always so depressing to see people using Jesus or the Christian faith to justify hatred and xenophobia. I cringe at the word "Christian" too. It's as if these people think that "I, as a believer, already have a free pass to heaven, so I can carry on being awful towards everyone as I always am." Truly depressing.

What a load of sanctimonious crap. Just today I was considering subscribing to this paper, but it's more of the same bilge water.

Yeah, institutionalized atheism has done a lot to help the world.

With "pastors" like this person, why bother going to any church or believing in God?

A true Christian strives to know himself, and realizes what a sinner he is, and that without Christ he is nothing. He sees that only God can judge another person, and doing so oneself is a sign of Spiritual sickness, (Susan).

This article isn't a clarion call to rouse a deaf world, it's a drop in the ocean of unbelief and hopelessness, vapid, boring, stereotypical, and what every God hating person loves to hear.

Thank God He doesn't dismiss us completely when we fail.

Instead of dismissing all of Christendom, perhaps we ought to pray and cry to God for our own sins, and receive His Mercy and power to be more like Him.

Redeem the time we have left on earth, and stop wasting time reading & writing this stuff.

What passes for Christianity in the USA, has little to do with what Jesus taught: The Peacemakers are the children of God.

2,000 years ago The Cross had NO symbolic religious meaning and was not a piece of jewelry.

When JC said: "Pick up your cross and follow me" everyone back then understood he was issuing a POLITICAL statement, for the main roads in Jerusalem were lined with crucified agitators, rebels, dissidents and any who disturbed the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces.

The term 'Christian' was not even coined until the days of Paul, about 3 decades after Jesus walked the earth a man.

Jesus, while never a Christian, was a social, justice, radical revolutionary Palestinian devout Jewish road warrior who rose up against the corrupt Temple authorities and challenged their job security by teaching the people they did NOT need to pay the priests for ritual baths or sacrificing livestock to be OK with God; for God LOVED them just as they were:

Sinners, poor, diseased, outcasts, widows, orphans, refugees and prisoners all living under Roman Military Occupation.

What got JC crucified was disturbing the status quo of the Roman Occupying Forces by teaching the subversive concept that Caesar only had power because God allowed it and that God preferred the humble sinner, the poor, diseased, outcasts, widows, orphans, refugees and prisoners all living under Roman Occupation above the elite and arrogant.

Eileen Fleming, Reporter and Editor WAWA:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "Keep Hope Alive" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer "30 Minutes With Vanunu" and "13 Minutes with Vanunu"

You humans make me sick! It's always about you! Get back to the basics of life....LIVE. you only have 70-80 years average (if you’re lucky)I've closed the pearly gates due to a bad mortgage, the escalator is in disrepair and regardless I don't want any more humans up here, too self centered and troublesome. I wish you all the best, and don't forget if you need me I'm right here in your head, but that's as close as you will ever get.

Dear Susan K. Smith,
You should provide a link to your web site so that we can pray with you.
In the 1930s and ´40s, the Prescott Profiteers gave God a bad name. Now the
Bushies are once again giving God a bad name.

Under Nixon, The Enemies of God even took an agent off the task of
extraditing the worst Nazi war criminals back to Germany in order to
persecute and extradite John Lennon with unlimited taxpayer money.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=777046699234389996

In 1933, The Enemies of God burned books at Bebelplatz. A Beatles tour of the
American Deep South was marked by Southern violence, the Ku Klux Klan and
record burning. Starke in Florida had the dubious distinction of becoming the
first place in the US to actually burn Beatles records.

The Klu Klux Klan nailed a Beatles record to a large cross and set it on
fire. Other Klansmen justified their campaign on the grounds that the Beatles
were not really white. Today, The Enemies of God have unlimited Treasury pork
to persecute the innocent and help the criminals get away.

Instead of wearing pointy hats, they began to work though the dark side,
spending time in the shadows in the Bushie world. A lot of what the Klu Klux
Klan feels needs to be done here will have to be done quietly, without any
discussion, using sources and methods that are available to the Blackwater
missionaries, if they're going to be successful. That's the world that the
Klu Klux Klan now operates in throughout Florida and its neighbors. LoyalBushie Cheney: "so it's going to be vital for us to use any means at our
disposal, basically, to achieve our objective."

Previous posts are evidence that most people have no idea of how one becomes a "Christian". We have have whole generation who believe that Christianity is based on one's stance on babies, gays or traditional values. Other's think that it has to do with the environment or social ills. All are wrong. Christianity is based on one thing and only one thing - acceptance of Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Everything else is "hog wash". I personally place blame on pastors and the Christian church who have for political reasons have made Christianity issue driven and not Christ driven. If one fully embraces Jesus as Lord, then abortion, homosexuality, environment, provery, etc will take care of itself.

arby5023 I'm in your head but you can't see me. I'm in your heart but you can't feel me. So I had to post you and say "YOU ARE WRONG!" now get back to work you need the money for that special project of yours...you know the one..don't worry I wont tell a soul.

Thanks for contacting Transcendental Tech Support. We've examined your spiritual infrastructure per your request, and our finding is, as usual, that if there is indeed a god she is, by definition, functioning as intended. Your religions, however, have been corrupted and require numerous updates and patches. Our recommendation is that the entire Religion Subsystem be wiped and replaced with a rational model that is more universally compatible and in closer compliance with what is generally recognized as Her will. Please give us a call to schedule a technician to perform this critical update, and have a Nice Day.

Transcendental Tech Support. Thank you so much what would I do without you? Always 7 steps ahead....

We aim to please.

Great article and something I have said for years and years.

When I hear the words "I am a Christian, or we are Christians" I literally gag.

These sanctimonious hypocrites [not all of course] are part of the reason this country is in the shape it is today.

Instead of focusing on the real problems in this country [Iraq War, economy, healthcare, our infrastructure, education], what do these "Christians" want to focus on? Abortion, gay marriage, gay adoption denigrating immigrants. Bush and his administration have made it even worse with catering to these goofballs.

Enough is enough. Please vote for a President who will restore the viability and dignity of this country and get rid of the hatred.

Wow, this is by far one of the best I've read.

Eloquent, strident, unafraid and un-politically correct. I agree with Ms. Smith that calling a spade a spade is, in the long-term, the most effective strategy at changing our religous culture.

In this case, Susan called "Christians" out with almost perfect articulation.

I am an atheist, but I would attend the church that Ms. Smith preaches at.

I would also attend the church that Father Michael Pfleger preaches at. I was raised Catholic, but am absolutely disgusted by the modern and historical catholic churche's values and actions. In my opinion, it's comparably evil an organization as the Taliban (OK, the Taliban is much worse, but comparable). No accountability, truth means nothing (doctrinaire), corrupt, hateful of outsiders, and rigid.
This doesn't speak for all who identify as "catholic." But, in my experience, it speaks for most rank and file catholics.

You said exactly what I feel. Thanks for expressing it so eloquently.

From a person who also cringes at the high-and-mighty-judgmental people who proclaim "I'm a Christian."

As a Christian, I agree completely with the tone of this post. I rarely identify myself as a Christian unless prompted. My feeling is that we must live the life, not lay claim to a title. Our behavior reveals the true nature of our heart. If you're a Christian and actually live like Christ calls you to, then you already know to let another sing your praises. You shouldn't need to broadcast it.

I can't even count the times someone has identified themselves as a Christian, then followed the claim with a "..but..." and then went on to behave or say something completely un-Christian. The most important commandments, those which we are instructed to live above all others, are to first love God, then one another in the same manner that He loves us. Any actions we take that aren't grounded in that love are fruitless and often destructive. Any religious ideology practiced without this same love is contrary to what God calls us to do.

Christians "the Anointed ones" please stop the archaic rite where you smear or rub your skulls with oil or an oily substance. I need all the oil I can get to fix the escalator. Duh!

David, sounds to me like you're a mighty prejudiced individual.

One commentator's "sage" rendering: >

Right. Of course, it was the "sanctimonious hypocrites" that gave us:

(1) Princeton, Harvard, Yale and Boston Universities, among others. (You can look it up.)

(2) The McGuffy reader and other primers that educated millions.

(3) The notion of religious liberty and freedom that started a revolution. (It's not the Upanishads that are quoted on the Liberty Bell, kiddo.)

(4) The abolitionist movement, and much of its successor, the civil rights movement.

(5) Medical missionaries, at home and abroad.

(6) Disaster relief (Salvation Army).

(7) Rehab for alcoholics, addicts and the handicapped (Salvation Army, Goodwill).

And so on. Yep, I guess we oughta be thanking God for the "sanctimonious hypocrites."

Oh, and was there EVER a global humanitarian movement started by an atheist?

Look. When you become a true believer in any of the three major religions and all of their various and sundry sects, you are obligated to suspend the rational part of your brain and reject any empirical evidence that directly contradicts your belief. Belief is the end of the search for knowledge by reason of the nature of belief itself.

If you are a true believer in Judaism, Christianity or Islam, then by the requirements of that belief, you reject the empirical evidence supporting evolution, the expanding universe, quantum physics and biological diversity. All of these sciences have progressed to the point where we understand the basic processes of how the the planets, moons and stars are created, how life began and how new species of life are being created every day by the changing environment around us.

Back when such scientic knowledge was unavailable to us, such fanciful beliefs could be sustained. But man can no longer use ignorance as an excuse. Now what motivates such beliefs in the face of evidence to the contrary is the same condition that exists within a human being who has convinced himself he is Jesus or Napoleon--mental illness.

What a ridiculously incoherent rant against Christians. Are you trying to simply say love thy neighbor? Then say it. But if you are trying to argue that Christians are by and large a pack of violent elitists, you are not only wildly mistaken but undercutting your own argument through fallacies. For example, the Crusades - a typical nonsequitur in these sort of "Blame Christianity" rants - came IN RESPONSE TO Islamic aggressions against formerly Christian lands. That's entirely the point - to RECLAIM the holy land! Islam had conquered more than half of Christianity through violence and destruction, and when the Christians finally fight back they get smeared for it? Give me a break. Oh, and some of the Crusades, like the Children's Crusade...boy, that was really a violent attack. We should be ashamed of sending innocent kids all the way to the Middle East to convert it peacefully and forcing those innocent Muslims to slaughter them.

Christianity has a lot to be proud of. In fact, it has ALMOST EVERYTHING to be proud of. Traditionally Christian countries have been at the forefront of all fields of knowledge and science since the Dark Ages. Contrast it with Islam, the so-called "Religion of Peace" that crushes all dissent, tolerance, human rights, and scientific inquiry wherever it casts its dark shadow. Christianity is a beacon that keeps back the darkness, and while it has been a hard road to get here you have to be willfully blind to not recognize the great leaps in human rights and condition that have occurred due to Christianity. Without Christianity as a counterweight, Islam would have already eradicated Buddhism and Hinduism, and we'd all have 4 wives wearing body sacks and be dying at age 28 from eminently curable diseases because that's "Allah's will". Humanity would never recover.

I'm not even a practicing Christian, and I can see that. There will always be bad seeds and extremists in any religion, but the simple fact of the matter is that Christianity follows and reveres a man known for teaching, healing, and dying for our sins, while Islam follows and reveres a man known for caravan raids, killing prisoners, stealing wives, ordering assassinations, slaughtering Jews and Christians, and killing others for his own material gains (and then rationalizing it all by saying God talked to him and said it was ok). These two starting points have accurately characterized the bulk of subsequent, respective worshippers ever since.

S. Heriger hits the nail on the head here: " If you're a Christian and actually live like Christ calls you to, then you already know to let another sing your praises. You shouldn't need to broadcast it."

Any spiritual path should be based on attraction rather than promotion. If you have to advertise it, you aren't doing it right.

Mark Allen writes:

Right. Of course, it was the "sanctimonious hypocrites" that gave us:

(1) Princeton, Harvard, Yale and Boston Universities, among others. (You can look it up.)

[I reply: Now they're giving us Liberty and Bob Jones University instead]

(2) The McGuffy reader and other primers that educated millions.

[Now they're trying to prevent our children from being instructed in evolution, a nearly universally accepted theory that underpins our entire understanding of biology and medicine. Oh, and they're keeping kids away from the evils of Harry Potter too.]

(3) The notion of religious liberty and freedom that started a revolution. (It's not the Upanishads that are quoted on the Liberty Bell, kiddo.)

[Tell that to the 'Good Christians' that think Kieth Ellison's seat in Congress is an affront to God, Jesus, and Apple Pie.]

(4) The abolitionist movement, and much of its successor, the civil rights movement.

[So discrimination against gays is something they're working to prevent too?]

(5) Medical missionaries, at home and abroad.

[So long as AIDS prevention efforts don't include sinful condoms...]

(6) Disaster relief (Salvation Army).

[Christians and Christian organizations give generously. For that all of humanity thanks them. That said, Christians aren't the only people who help after disasters.]

(7) Rehab for alcoholics, addicts and the handicapped (Salvation Army, Goodwill).

[But they're plenty happy to condemn any and every other kind of sinner...]

Me speaking: Nobody is contending that Christians haven't done good things for society in the past. I'm sure that nobody's trying to say that there aren't Christians doing good things for society right now. Susan Smith's point is that Christians have let a judgmental, dogmatic, and political subgroup become the public face of Christianity - and that isn't a good thing for Christianity.

Who made Susan saint of the day. All human beings give the creator a bad name. You don't get brownie points for being self-indulgent as opposed to being morally weak or a hyprocrite.

If you were gullible enough to believe that someone was a great man or woman just because he/she said he/she was shame on you. Always go by what a man/woman does not by what he/she says.

On the other hand one should strive to do the right thing and sometimes ignorance rather than malice is the problem. Who am I to judge my neighbor unless he/she has been corrected and still continues to abide in the irrational or immoral?

But if someone has been corrected and still goes south then they need to be punished.

Wow - Who needs wolves when we have shepherd like this?

This comment is in response to Rick020 and anyone else that feels the way he does. I would plead with all of you to not judge Christ or God by the behavior of christians. Like all other religions of the world, adherents of christianity are sometimes immature, confused or in some cases, out right exploiting the name of Jesus Christ for their own interest. The bible warns of this and it is quite apparent anytime yoiu turn on the TV. Instead, seek God and Christ on your own terms and seek out mature christians who are not living life for themselves but for God. If so, you will find true peace and joy in your heart and a purpose for your life. Not Perfection, of course, but a reason to live and to something to strive for.

Rory (RED KING)

Judging by your post I failed miserably with you. You need to go back to the beginning and try again. But this time you shall be known as Ahmed (worthy of praise) and I choose the religion of Islam as you teaching. I'll check back on you soon, till then Love Life and do good things. Maybe you could get me some oil for the escalator....

Wow - Who needs wolves when we have shepherds like this?

They doth protest too much ! !

Reverend - you have hit the nail directly on the head! Frankly, what you say is why I am no longer a Republican, and tend to believe that many, if not most, Republicans are not aware of two things that they should consider (and won't):

(1) "But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.” (Luke 6:27-28);

and

(2) the following definitions, especially B below:

A. A hypocrite; esp., a superstitious hypocrite. [Obs.]

B. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.

These are dictionary definitions of a bigot.

Reference: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.

You have to call them the way you see them, and this definition perfrectly fits many, many Republicans, and that is one of the primary reasons the party's membership and popularity is dropping like a rock!

I WAS a life-long Republican but am now a registered Independent.

I am a follower of Christ, or try to be, and that makes me a Christian. I agree with author Phillip Yancey who wrote in "What's So Amazing About Grace" that aligning your faith with secular political parties/purposes diminishes the opportunity for God's grace.

When our pastor first came to our church, he preached the embarrassed-to-be-called-a-Christian message. Two years later, he recanted that message as a narrow and negative view. He wants us to offer Christ to a broken world, and it doesn't matter how the secular western world view perceives us or names us, but we are, by definition, Christians. As the mainline Christian denominations in the US (and Western Europe) continue to decline quickly, the more orthodox global Christian churh is growing tremendously -- in the global south - Africa, China, South America, and in Eastern Europe.

Yes, people have committed tremendous evil in the name of Christianity and other religions, but in the 20th century, the two most horrific genocides in history were done by secular political leaders (Stalin and Hitler) who were imposing their socio-political visions on the world and were anything but followers of Christ.

So, I will continue to find hope in Christ. I have the humility to say I am a Christian, and I hope to be worthy of my savior, Jesus Christ. Peace and grace to you all.

Jeff,

Sorry, I'm responding the next day. I guess my comments were pretty rude and I apologize for that. But the anger you showed toward that nice woman for calling you out made me angry too. As for responding to your challenge, for the most part - as i said in my post - I just don't really relate to you're point of view. It seems to be "Christian" in a very specific way. "Straight and narrow" may very well be the way, as you pointed out, but that doesn't mean your way. Just because you have picked a road doesn't necessarily make it the right one. In fact, when the edges of that road leads to injustice, hypocracy, and is lined the blood of innocents killed in the name of the Prince of Peace, well, I tend to agree with Susan Smith that Christ would be, and likely is, offended. Ask the current president if "stay the course" is a good idea. He'll tell you unequivocally that it is. What should that tell you?

Though we may be pitiful, wretched sinners, God does not want to help us because we are pitful. He wants to help because we are his children. "I have said, ye are Gods." 86th Psalm.

Jeff,

Sorry, I'm responding the next day. I guess my comments were pretty rude and I apologize for that. But the anger you showed toward that nice woman for calling you out made me angry too. As for responding to your challenge, for the most part - as i said in my post - I just don't really relate to you're point of view. It seems to be "Christian" in a very specific way. "Straight and narrow" may very well be the way, as you pointed out, but that doesn't mean your way. Just because you have picked a road doesn't necessarily make it the right one. In fact, when the edges of that road leads to injustice, hypocracy, and is lined the blood of innocents killed in the name of the Prince of Peace, well, I tend to agree with Susan Smith that Christ would be, and likely is, offended. Ask the current president if "stay the course" is a good idea. He'll tell you unequivocally that it is. What should that tell you?

Though we may be pitiful, wretched sinners, God does not want to help us because we are pitful. He wants to help because we are his children. "I have said, ye are Gods." 86th Psalm.

I am a Christian, I say that proudly not arrogantly. But Jesus warned us that we would be rejected just as he was.
Some will, some won't
Some see, some don't

It's like my husband always says - you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. There lies the problem. Some Christians think it is their calling to push their salvation on others. The other thing that I have learned in my walk of faith is that not everyone will accept this as truth and we as Christians need to just accept that as the way it is. But we also have to remember that it is not us that leads those to Christ but the Holy Spirit. If it is meant to be it's not up to me. All I can do is be an example of Christ and plant a seed. God and the Holy Spirit will do the rest.

Are Christians sinful? Absolutely. Am I? Absolutely. When someone says to me "only hypocrites go to church" I say yes you are right. How do I know this because we were born into sin and we will leave this life in sin. It all depends on who is going to cover you when you meet God. In my case - it will be Jesus Christ my Lord. He will say to me "you are welcome".

Call that stuck-up if you want. I call it confidence in my God and in my savior. I don't need to convince anyone of my salvation, I only need to know that this salvation is guaranteed by Him the one that died on the cross - and we put Him there.

Thanks for that reminder, my posting is "We were warned". Please read this because I think you will see we are on the same page.
Praise God

Great article! A sign of a good op-ed piece is generating controversy!!!
Keep up the good work Rev. Smith!

"Belief is the end of the search for knowledge by reason of the nature of belief itself."

In the book of Proverbs, Solomon wrote that the fear of God is the beginning of knowledge.

(Oh, and unlike Ms. Smith, I'm proud to identify as "Christian")

Here are some snips from the Christian apologists in this thread:

“we all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory”

“calling one's self a "Christian" should never be a boast. It's an admission that we're broken, that we're sinners, and that we need to be healed.”

“the Christian faith, by it's nature is a journey that begins by accepting all of us where we are as sinners.”

“I try my best to live a "Christ-like" life. BUT, salvation in Christ does not eliminate sin from my life”

“HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN JUST LIKE THE REST”

“love and peace only found through agreeing w/God about our human depravity”

“We must continue our battle against a world full of Sin!”

“We as religious people get too caught up in condemning others as sinners for not being like us, yet even the act itself of judging anyone is a sin.”

"strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Mt. 7:14 Romans 3:23 says that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Revelation chapter 20 describes the fate of those who do not trust Christ as their Savior. They will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

“Though we may be pitiful, wretched sinners”” Are Christians sinful? Absolutely. Am I? Absolutely. When someone says to me "only hypocrites go to church" I say yes you are right. How do I know this because we were born into sin and we will leave this life in sin.”

How awful it must be to live with so much guilt, self-loathing and fear. You are all welcome to your faith, I'll stick with reality.

Rory:

Hinduism and Buddhism have withstood the onslaught of both Islam and Christianity on their soil on their own intrinsic merit. Christianity did not help Hinduism nor did it help Buddhism. If anything, both these Abrahamic religions have tried to impose their belief structures on us "heathens" with minor success thankfully.

The Eastern philosophies have been around long before the Abrahamic ones existed and will be around purely because of their intrinsic nature. I say that because despite centuries of oppressive occupation by the Moghuls and then of course the British, India is still 80 % Hindu. Our religion is a philosophy, its more to do with the intangible core values practiced by us as against the rigidity and enforcement practiced by both Christianity and Islam that lets it breathe and live.

Finally, somebody who actually gets me. Good job, Susan. Extra Blood and Body for you this week. -J

Jaxar says;
"If you are a true believer in Judaism, Christianity or Islam, then by the requirements of that belief, you reject the empirical evidence supporting evolution, the expanding universe, quantum physics and biological diversity."

The Big Bang theory as well as evolution do not preclude an initiating force which is a dimension of a universal power we call God.
The most outspoken proponents of Atheism admit that they could not prove the non-existence of God any more than Theists prove His existence. The fact that a belief in ghosts is anathema to Atheists and Agnostics, and since I know there are ghosts, my belief is tipped toward Theism. This is an empirical evidence that is void of any blind faith.
Peruse the following 13 ghosts
http://www.ghoststudy.com/new6/new/gettysburg13.htm

I agree with all of the points that were made in your article. Because I've on the receiving end lots of times by people who said that they are a christian.

I agree with all of the points that were made in your article. Because I've on the receiving end lots of times by people who said that they are a christian.

Jaxas,

Look (to borrow your own lead-in)...

First, you make an outrageous and very-mistaken claim that people of the monotheistic faiths must abandon reason and scientific discovery to embrace their faith. Where’d you ever get such a crazy idea? I believe in the same scientific discovery that you do…I simply have a different belief in what caused it all to take place. And let’s make that part clear…how it all started is the only question that matters.

How can you claim that naturalism is true if you cannot establish “first cause” in the pre-Big Bang conditions? There is no science available to us to study those conditions, as the physical laws of science that we use to study the “natural” world didn’t come into play until after the Big Bang event itself.

You seem to believe that because the world can be studied and quantified as unfolding through “natural” means, that it somehow proves a natural cause. Being able to study and quantify the natural world doesn’t provide the slightest shred of evidence supporting the claim that it arose by natural means, because able to study and explain natural processes doesn't establish how the highly-deterministic physical laws came to be.

If you insist that being able to observe and quantify the natural world somehow proves naturalism, then you must know what a supernaturally-created world would look like. Do you? Can you provide me with scientific proof to support your claim? I’m very certain you can’t.

If we don’t know the cause of the Universe, how can anyone claim that the naturalist worldview is correct? Do we know what a Universe created by a super-intellect would look like? Based upon the same scientific evidence used to "prove" naturalism, I happen to think that a supernaturally-created world would look like the one we live in. I accept the scientific discovery that the Universe came about from a blast of invisible sub-atomic particles that slowly formed into the visible matter we see today. I am comfortable with this fact because the hard science behind it says so, and the Bible does as well, stating “…we understand by faith that what is seen was made from what was invisible.” (Hebrews 11:3) The Apostle Paul wasn’t a physicist, but he perfectly described what science has only discovered in the past century.

Because I believe that science is simply an understanding of how God uses particles and waves, guided by physical and mathematical laws, to create and maintain, I have the added benefit of a strong faith and a belief in the same scientific facts that you do.

You can’t offer me a scientific cause for the underlying laws that guide matter and energy. You can’t because you have no science to understand what took place on the other side of the singularity we call the Big Bang. I can, however, offer you a theological one, and it’s been around for 3,500 years. Within the past 100, science finally caught up with what believers in the monotheistic faiths have known for millennia…that time and space had a distinct beginning.

In the end, naturalism cannot prove itself, as it cannot establish what gave rise to our Universe in the first place. It is a mystery that remains locked in secrecy on the other side the Big Bang. Whether you can accept it or not, the cause of our Universe is “an indefinable element in an undefined space,” and therefore not knowable.

To be fair, I will note that simply because the naturalist worldview cannot provide proof of first cause, it doesn't somehow prove the existence of God. It simply leaves the door open (and quite widely) for the possibility. While you see those deterministic laws arising out of something you can’t describe scientifically, I see evidence of a superintellect in the order and perfection of those same laws, and the arising of such things as the startlingly complex code contained within the DNA molecule.

You may believe in a world that arose by unknown means and unfolded through "natural" processes. I choose a Creator who created a Universe that dances to physical and mathematical laws, and that He used those laws to create and maintain all that we see. Either way you cut it, the science remains the same.

The only difference is that I can offer an explanation. Your worldview can’t. In the end, we’re all moving forward from that starting point on faith. Get used to it.

When people say, "To tell the truth,...." I am always wary they are about to lie like when people go out of their way to announce "I'm a Christian" followed by actions that prove otherwise.

"What on earth made Christians feel like God wanted them to kill Muslims during the Crusades?"

To reclaim Christian land taken by the caliphate

"How could Christians justify slavery"

Christianity also ended ir while it still went on in Islam even to this very day.

"or be silent during the Holocaust?"

The West did do something about it and Muslims sided with the Nazis and even had Muslim divisions.

Amazing how these secularists hate Christians but can find common ground with Islam. The liberal world is truly a bizarro world.

"I have searched the Gospels, and nowhere do I see justification for some of the things we have done."

But you can search the Qur'an, ahadiths, and siras and find justification for every atrocity ever committed by Islam.

I am a Catholic who accepts Jesus Christ as my Savior...does that make me better than anybody else? No. But I can't stand idly by while this stuff is being said. Most people that chose not to go to church disagree with the doctrine to begin with. The Church isn't called to let you chose what you want to believe in...it's to show sinners (all of us) the pathway to Heaven. Teaching a kinder type of Christianity isn't going to help anybody...but teaching it in the way Christ presented it will.
As far as homosexuals it's more of a topic out there because they are trying to force their lifestyle as the norm. They are trying to make gay marriage legal and if you question it, you are the bigot. I don't see adulterers or fornicators or gluttons forcing laws upon us...but they are all abominations. They're acts aren't the norm and they are sinful.
I agree we should be kinder to everyone...but even Christ said we should rebuke the sinner when he sins and if he repents to forgive him. Matthew 18:15-17, Luke 17:3.

Tater,

Its really mindbogglingly. These secularists cant stand it that Christians view homosexuality as a sin but are ok with Muslims executing homosexuals. They call Christians "arrogant" for calling themselves Christians but dont mind Islam being so arrogant it executes Muslims for leaving Islam.

"Its really mindbogglingly."

Sorry, I'll try and make it simple:

" These secularists cant stand it that Christians view homosexuality as a sin but are ok with Muslims executing homosexuals. "

No, secularists aren't 'ok with Muslims executing homosexuals.' We're just unimpressed by people who, when we call out for equal rights, point to some vague idea of a 'Muslim nation' and say, 'Oh, yeah? Be glad we don't do worse to you.'

"No, secularists aren't 'ok with Muslims executing homosexuals.'"

Really? I guess I cant hear them over the deafening roar over Christians viewing homosexuality as a sin.

"point to some vague idea of a 'Muslim nation"

Muslims executing homosexuals is a "vague idea"?

Oh and today in the anniversary of Spain falling to the caliphate. July 19th 711; almost 400 years before the first Crusades were called. Ohh and the Islamic world wants al-Andalus back.

" Elric66:

"""No, secularists aren't 'ok with Muslims executing homosexuals.'"

"Really? I guess I cant hear them over the deafening roar over Christians viewing homosexuality as a sin."

Funny you should say that. That's exactly my sentiment, and it's not even your head on the block, is it?

Faith is personal. Pushing one's beliefs on others is not a sign of faith, it's a sign of narcissism. I have known Christians who believed they knew what other people should believe. That is narcissism. Evangelicals who insist that they know what's best for others might do well to look in the mirror and focus on how they can grow and develop themselves rather than on how to force, cajole, persuade, terrorize, and oppress others into their religion.

I have also known Christians and non-Christians alike who treated others with respect no matter what belief system they engaged with. They were mature enough to understand that one's relationship with the divine is none of anyone else's business.

"Christians" who practice and promulgate hate and fear (quite contrary to the teachings of Jesus), who bully and manipulate those who believe differently, are, in my opinion, so afraid of the vastness and complexity of the universe that they hide in the illusory safety of simplistic "black & white" beliefs. That is also a sign of unresolved narcissism.

Whoever or whatever the divine actually is, it is certainly beyond the comprehension of the human mind. To limit "God" to human concepts seems silly to me. Fear of ambiguity, of paradox, of the unknown, is something to face and feel, but is not an excuse for hurting others.

The exploitation of religion or spirituality for political and/or economic ends is repugnant to me.

Religions that tell us that we are children subservient to a parent-like God don't make sense to me. A good parent wants their children to grow up, not to stay undeveloped. One can be a mature adult engaged in critical thinking, with compassion, and still have as part of one's character the wonder and loving nature of a child.

Here is a link to a paper I wrote recently. Readers may find it to be of interest.

http://www.healingmagic.org/articles/Narcissism.pdf

Baruch,

What do you think of Dhimmi and Apostasy laws?

Susan Smith:
I appreciate the candor in your article. I wonder how many others of us hear "I'm a Christian!" if not daily, maybe weekly, or monthly, in our day-to-day lives. And I wonder how many of us get a surge of ill-feeling at the mention of it.

Because it's what's not said in that phrase that is the heart of the matter. What kind of person needs to make that announcement? What among the millions of things it could mean, does it mean? Under what circumstances does that need to become public knowledge? What response does such a person making this announcement seek to find?

I think you've hit upon it, the "do unto others" concept that has been present in cultures well before early Christianity. Secular humanists are forefront with this as a driving concept.

However...

Personally, it's not particularly the individuals who call themselves Christian that make it seem "ugly" to me; it's the institution, the authority, the collective mindset that bombards us from our early childhood and through a psychological drama that spares no avenue of advertisement. Over 2000 years this has been refined into a well-oiled machine.

What credibility should one give to a "Pope" who decries the evils of "materialism" and who warns the youth of the dangers of the "spiritual desert" but who wears the robes of kings and lives in a gold palace created by the taxes of the masses? How should we respond to the certainties and absolutes that are dictated from and by the for the institution?

"I am a Christian" can mean anything or nothing. "We are The Church" is much more dangerous.

Secular humanists have created a vacuum in Europe which Islam is filling. How does that make you feel Steven?

We are the Ummah should be what you worry about.

Elric66:

Thanks for your comment, although I doubt it has the effect on me that you'd hoped.

It makes me feel no different: The institution of Islam is no better or worse than the institution of Christianity.

You secular humanists have no idea what Islam is all about, do you?

"The institution of Islam is no better or worse than the institution of Christianity."

Really? Prove it. Not by feelings but by comparing the prophets of each respect religion and their books; Christianity the New Testment and Islam; The Qur'a, ahadiths and the Siras. Knock yourself out trying to compare the two because you cant.

You know why? Because when Christians do bad things it goes against the teachings of Jesus and the NT, when Muslims do, its in sync with the teachings of Mo and their books. For some odd reason, you multiculturalists are unable or unwilling to see that distinction. Why is that?

Just the fact that Islam has Dhimmi laws and Apostasy laws proves that Islam is very different than Christianity or any other religion.

To the writer of this article, Lets examine your life and see if you imitate Christ.

You are pious, the statement "If one is a Christian, one is supposed to imitate the Christ. It says that in the Bible. Jesus talked to everyone, dismissed nobody, and got angry when people took advantage of each other. Remember his fit in the Temple when he overthrew the moneychangers?" shows that Christ had a balance and limit with those that disdained God by their actions, hence the anger Christ exhibited with the moneychangers.

Bottom line, Christians inmate Christ by having the same balance that Christ had, talk to all, dismiss no one, and have the right to be angry at those who "sin" against us, or,
(take advantage of others)

Your article is not worth the paper you wrote it on; get a new day job you are "terrible" as a writer.

I’ll be glad when David returns from vacation.

Pakistan: Court grants custody of Christian girls to Muslim kidnappers

Because they converted to Islam, you see. More on this story. "Pakistan: Court Grants Custody of Girls to Kidnappers," from Compass Direct News, July 18:

ISTANBUL, July 18 (Compass Direct News) – A Pakistani couple has appealed a court decision to award custody of their two daughters, 10 and 13, to the children’s alleged kidnappers. The court based its custody decision on the girls’ conversion to Islam.

Judge Main Naeem Sardar ruled Saturday (July 12) that Saba Masih, 13, and Aneela Masih, 10, had become Muslims, invalidating their Christian parents’ right to legal guardianship.

“He said that because the parents are Christians and because the girls told the court that they adopted Islam, their relationship has ceased,” lawyer Rashid Rehman of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) told Compass. Under a common interpretation of Islamic law, a Christian cannot have custody of a Muslim....

Yeah, no different Steven. Keep telling yourself that lie.

ELRIC66 asked me:
Baruch, What do you think of Dhimmi and Apostasy laws?

I think Islam, like the other Abrahamic religions, has more than one branch, with multiple interpretations of the respective scripture, I this case the Qur'an. Personally I do not subscribe to any of the Abrahamic religions as they are all essentially hierarchical, anthropomorphise divinity, and have all been used to exploit people and earth for political and economic gain for over a millennia.

My understanding of the status (or lack thereof) accorded women and non-Muslims leads me to believe that Islam, like Judaism and Christianity, includes some interpretations that are very harsh, at times brutal, and I do not agree with these practices. We see brutality in the history of Jews against non-Jews, Christians against non-Christians, and Muslims against non-Muslims. I do not support any of this.

I do not agree that woman and non-Muslims should be treated as they are under Sharia. I do not believe that gay and lesbian people should be discriminated against let alone killed, or any number of other fundamentalist interpretations of Sharia.

I see similar interpretations and treatment of women, non-believers and gay & lesbian people in Christianity. Modern Christians do not behead, but there are "Christians" who shoot, beat, and stomp on gay/lesbian/trans folk in the US, beat their wives into submission, and other such heinous practices. These things happen more frequently than the media reports.

I am not a scholar of Islam, though I have been educating myself some lately. The history of the Islam/Christian adversity goes back to the beginning of Islam some 1500 years ago. In this ongoing conflict no one is blameless, and no one is "all bad." It's not a black and white situation.

Baruch,

why am I not surprised you had to give moral equivalence between Islam and Christianity even though there isnt any. Apostasy and dhimmi laws are rooted in Islamic text and deeds by Mo-bomb-ed while the same cant be said with Christianity.

Its a very dangerous game to play and if you get your wish run Christianity out of the public arena something will replace it and that will be Islam. Thats what happened in Europe and I dont think any rational being can say that Europe is better off.

If you truly want to learn about Islam and what it really is, read any book by Robert Spencer. He uses only Islamic sources to educated his readers.

Knowledge is power and you will need it as sharia law creeps into the West. Unless of course you wouldnt mind Sharia law that is.

Bukhari9,83,17
Narrated 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

(Sahih Bukhari 4.260)
Narrated Ikrima:
Ali burnt some people [hypocrites] and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "

Yes, the Prophet of Allah Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) will descend at the end of time and judge among the people with justice, following the Law of our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). He will break the crosses and kill the swine. HE shall put an end to the payment of the jizya. He will only accept Islam from the people. The People of the Book, the Jews and Christians, will all believe in him before his death, after he descends at the end of time. Allah has stated, "There is none of the People of the book but must believe in him (as only a Messenger of Allah) before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he (Jesus) will be a witness against them." [an-Nisa, 4:159]

Nine face stoning death in Iran

At least eight women and one man are reported to have been sentenced to death by stoning in Iran.

The group, convicted of adultery and sex offences, could be executed at any time, lawyers defending them say.

The lawyers have called on the head of Iran's judiciary to prevent the sentences from being carried out.

The last officially reported stoning in Iran last year drew strong criticism from human rights groups and the European Union.

The eight women sentenced, whose ages range from 27 to 43, had convictions including prostitution, incest and adultery, Reuters news agency reported.

The man, a 50-year-old music teacher, was convicted of illegal sex with a student, reports said.

No difference at all Steven.

Elric66:

Thanks for your most thoughtful replies. I'm sorry I've been away for the day, and for the most part have been enjoying it. No terrorist strikes by Islam here in the Bahamas, today.

I think I see a little better where you stand. One only needs to keep one's mouth shut to allow the other party to enlighten the conversation. And you have certainly been posting a lot!

I fully agree with you about Islam. What better example do we have of this institutional abuse, than 9/11, or almost daily news about Sudan, or (generally anywhere in the middle-east), or by authors such as Salman Rushdie or Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who have urged Americans to drop "political correctness" when it comes to these groups--and I fully agree. My head is really not buried in the sand, as you seem to imply, "...right, Steven?"

You might consider other compelling world history, to the atrocities committed by those "of the book" against Islam, against their neighboring communities, against generally anything outside of their narrow-minded, oftentimes religious-driven cultures. Would there be others here who might agree that Islam is the youngest of the religions "of the Book," and just hasn't had as much time to make its mark on history?

Yes I'm fully aware of secular humanism, and I don't share your disgust of it, nor do I share your arrogant, in-your-face attitude concerning the premise of humanism--the "do unto others" that would be a good start for all of us. I don't see it as a show of weakness, to be trampled by the evils were it not for the strength of public-square Christianity to "stay the waters" of the otherwise impending religious storm. And I don't see it as a "liberal" issue. Secular Humanism isn't some passive "turn the other cheek" weak position. I find it empowering, through and through. Especially in our country, where secularism can be the law of the land and establish clear boundaries to what is permissible, what is law. I just don't see my Texas neighbors cowering to the need to be politically correct in regard to someone insisting on their over-arching religious needs or rights.

The Europeans have a challenge ahead, and one only can guess how much religious abuse they will put up with before some other atrocity happens there. It would not hurt my feelings if all religions incorporated that golden rule "do unto others" philosophy, or otherwise simply disappear. Wishful thinking? May be.

Yes, I think the institution of Islam can be evil, but no more than the evils perpetrated in the name of God(s) throughout all of history. I'm not telling myself some lie. I'm certainly not "defending" Islam's atrocities. But neither do I separate them from the atrocities of Christianity. We had Christians burning witches during the time that there was a working model of the steam engine, the atmosphere of Jupiter was discovered to have a differential rotation, and paper money was being printed in the US. And sadly enough, Christians are still burning witches around the far reaches of the world. It's all there for the retelling. I couldn't make this stuff up.

This will be my last communication with you for the day. I've read enough to know what you're about, I think. You might consider that Christianity is not some "holding place" to keep out the evils of other religions. I've heard that before--"...just think what would happen to us if Christianity weren't there to protect us all..."--kind of nonsense. I think I get the gist of it.

Your repeated use of my name in your posts to make some point is at best probably boring to most of us, and at worst is reflecting poorly on you. As well, the sheer number of your posts also reflects something, I'm just trying to figure that one out. (17 and counting, so far?)

Good night and sweet dreams.

ELRIC66, with all due respect, I am in Europe and you don't know what you're talking about. For the most part Muslims, Christians, Jews and Pagans live side by side peacefully here. Of course there are exceptions. There are always exceptions.

I get the sense, from your post addressed to me, that you either didn't read or didn't understand what I have already posted.

I also get the sense that you are here to agitate, not to engage in constructive discussion. It seems to me that you are more invested in being right than in learning and sharing ideas. Read my paper on narcissism. You might just see yourself in it.

" No terrorist strikes by Islam here in the Bahamas, today."

Wow, that must mean that Islam is peaceful or no more a danger than Christianity.

"Yes I'm fully aware of secular humanism, and I don't share your disgust of it, nor do I share your arrogant, in-your-face attitude concerning the premise of humanism--the "do unto others" that would be a good start for all of us."

I have nothing against securlaist per say except for their determination (not all of them) to get religion out of the public eye. That is what they did with Christianity in Europe and Islam is filling the void which for some reason, they seem not to care. They will though, very soon in fact.

"The Europeans have a challenge ahead, and one only can guess how much religious abuse they will put up with before some other atrocity happens there."

That would be Islamic abuse, no other religion there is bent on taking over Europe except Islam.

"Yes, I think the institution of Islam can be evil, but no more than the evils perpetrated in the name of God(s) throughout all of history."

Never can put it in the context of the teachings and their prophets can you? Why is that?

"You might consider that Christianity is not some "holding place" to keep out the evils of other religions."

All I know is when Europe pushed out Christianity, Islam was happy to fill it. If Europe clung on to its Judeo/Christian roots it would not have happened. When two cultures collide and one thinks all cultures are equal and the other thinks its better, who will win out? Well guess what? Multiculturalism was the trojan horse that Islam rode in on.

"Your repeated use of my name in your posts to make some point is at best probably boring to most of us, and at worst is reflecting poorly on you."

No it didnt. I pointed out how Islam and Christianity are very different philosophically and you think they are no different. Like I said a religion that mandates its followers be executed if they leave and have laws on how to govern and treat non believers different is all you need to know and which you totally ignored. Why didnt you even address that Steven? Because you know Im right. The truth and history is on my side.

Perhaps you should step outside your ivory tower and actually take a look at how Islam is affecting the world and actually study whats in the Qur'an, ahadiths, and siras. Its all there if you want to learn. But I guess if Islamic terrorists didnt attack the Bahamas today it means Islam is a religion of peace. Right Steven?

Night

Baruch,

LOL.Right. Where in Eurabia?

Bahrain: "Shariah courts have dismissed many cases filed by women against their husbands for forced or unwilling sex ... because the religion allows a man to establish physical contact with his wife as per his wish"

"Rights activists have been pushing for the law for the past 20 years with no hope despite government’s support because of the objections of religious leaders who fear adverse judgments in Shariah courts."

But let Muslim communities establish Sharia law in the West, and, no, really, this time it will be different.

"Activists step up efforts to penalise ‘spousal rape’," from the Khaleej Times, July 20:

MANAMA — Rights activists in Bahrain have accelerated their efforts to penalise ‘spousal rape’ by launching a new campaign to promote the implementation of a family law to regulate judgments at Shariah Courts.

Presidents of the Women’s Union Mariam Al Ruwai told Khaleej Times yesterday that the law was the ultimate solution to protect women from many types of abuses and discriminations they faced at courts.

She said the penal code did not criminalise spousal rape for many religious and social misconceptions. “Out of shame and social criticism, many wives do not seek legal help and suffer in silence the humiliation because of their husbands' psychological problems, while others who wanted to fight for their dignity and physical safety were shattered when they come to know that the legal system cannot help them,” she explained.

Women’s rights activist Afaf Al Jamri highlighted the need for the implementation of a family law to bring justice to such women. She said many women had to tolerate physical violence at the hand of their husbands because of the wrong interpretation of Islamic regulations, mainly Hadith (sayings of the Holy Prophet peace be upon him). She stressed the need to focus on the Holy Quran as its verses could not be misinterpreted.

Hmm. "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..." - Qur'an 2:223

Scholar and judge at the Shariah Courts Shaikh Mohsin Al Asfoor told Khaleej Times that men had a right to establish physical contact with their wives as the word ‘rape’ doesn't apply in relations between married couples. He said Shariah courts did not penalise men for forced sex, however they press abuse charges and not rape when one suffers physical injuries.

“Shariah courts have dismissed many cases filed by women against their husbands for forced or unwilling sex, especially by females who had signed the marriage contracts but were waiting for the formal marriage ceremony, because the religion allows a man to establish physical contact with his wife as per his wish,” Shaikh Al Asfoor explained.

Rights activists have been pushing for the law for the past 20 years with no hope despite government’s support because of the objections of religious leaders who fear adverse judgments in Shariah courts.

"ELRIC66, with all due respect, I am in Europe and you don't know what you're talking about. For the most part Muslims, Christians, Jews and Pagans live side by side peacefully here. Of course there are exceptions. There are always exceptions."

Exceptions like car-b-ques, riots, bus bombings, train bombings, rapes, murders, no go areas and such.

"I get the sense, from your post addressed to me, that you either didn't read or didn't understand what I have already posted."

Oh I got it. Christianity and Islam 2 sides of the same coin. That and you never put anything in context between the religions.

"I also get the sense that you are here to agitate, not to engage in constructive discussion. It seems to me that you are more invested in being right than in learning and sharing ideas. Read my paper on narcissism. You might just see yourself in it."

I am for constructive discussions. I even quote Islam texts to back up my discussion, what do you add? Oh and I think Western culture with its Judeo Christian heritage is superior to Islam and worth fighting for. Do you?

ELRIC66 I am currently in Italy. I have spent time in Holland, Germany, and France as well. Where are you? Have you travelled and met different people and shared ideas with them? Or are you safely ensconced in the US, buying into the corporate media with it's skewed portrayal of the rest of the world?

Do you find that being rude works for you in your offline life? Or do you only hide behind the anonymity of the computer when putting out your rudeness?

I've said what I have to say...now I'm done. I see that you like to bait people into argument, but I'm just not interested. Bye.

"I am currently in Italy. I have spent time in Holland, Germany, and France as well. Where are you? Have you travelled and met different people and shared ideas with them? Or are you safely ensconced in the US, buying into the corporate media with it's skewed portrayal of the rest of the world?"

Spent 5 years in Eurabia in the 90's when stationed in Ramstein and Aviano. As for Islam, Ill go my their books and history, not judge Islam because Akmed down the road didnt blow up. Now thats naive. I dont even follow "corporate media". But if Muslims would stop blowing up around the world, they might have a better image. Rioting over a cartoon using legal jihad to arrest Geert Wilder does tarnish their image.

"Do you find that being rude works for you in your offline life? Or do you only hide behind the anonymity of the computer when putting out your rudeness?"

Ahhhhhh I see. When I bring up actual facts, you say Im rude and leave. Typical

And you didnt answer if Europe's Judeao Christian heritage and Western culture was better than Islam and worth fighting for. Given the Islamicfication of Eurabia, Ill take it as a firm no.

"According to a recent report in the prestigious Time magazine, hundreds of new mosques are coming up in the West and most of the European cities now get to hear Azan (call for prayer) five times a day.In Rome a grand mosque is coming up at a whopping cost of $3 crore for which the land has been donated by the local government."

Mighty nice of Rome to donate land to its future overlords. Good dhimmis.

Out of the mouth comes either blessing or cursing.
Dear Susan, the next time you hear some one declare, "I'm a Christian" and you observe that it might be a prompting to set them off on an indignancy roll, then dear sister cut them off at the pass with an even higher declaration to say, "Praise the LORD!" "I'll be seeing YOU in Heaven then, right?" :)
In essence, change their focus and don't take it in to yourself only to bare the very same seeds of indignancy you deplore.
Move on, preach the Gospel, the Good News, amen.

Blessings in your Ministry in Christ,
Sister V.

Just for Baruch, Sarkozy being ripped apart

Do not doubt at any moment, Mr. President, that all your talent as media director will not be enough to avert the brewing crisis which you will have to face before the end of the year. Your Europe is a drifting vessel, windswept and beaten by the waves. It is the only region in the world to have deliberately dismantled its political and moral structures.

Without borders, gradually invaded by a mass immigration which is only at its beginning, economically ruined by the ultra-liberalism, socially impoverished, weakened demographically, without spirit and military strength. At best, it will fall under the American protectorate, at worse it will become a slave of the dhimmitude.

Actually, this article is mistitled. Christians give Christianity a bad name. But religion (in general) gives god a bad name. Religion has historically been--and is today--used as the justification for much of one group's inhumanity to another. If god exists, and if this is the purpose that he/she/it intended for religion...well, just leave me out of it.

Godless people like Communists and Nazis sure havent given godless people a good name.

"Godless people like Communists and Nazis sure havent given godless people a good name."

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So what's your point? That people can be just as brutal in the name of an ideology as they can in the name of a deity? Not much comfort in that, I'd say. Or much enlightenment. I'd guess that those being killed really didn't care much if their murderers were acting in the name of Stalin, Hitler, Allah, or Jesus--they ended up just as dead.

Belief in a supernatural "supreme being" does not guarantee respect for the rights of others. Nor does the absence of such a belief automatically imply a lack of such respect.

Elric66 said:
"Godless people like Communists and Nazis sure havent given godless people a good name."

Elric66,

Communists and Nazis did not commit their atrocities in the name of godlessness but Christians and Muslims always invoke the name of their god when they commit theirs. Do you not understand the difference?

"Communists and Nazis did not commit their atrocities in the name of godlessness but Christians and Muslims always invoke the name of their god when they commit theirs. Do you not understand the difference?"

No, they had no moral authority to guide them so they could do whatever they want with no fear of consequences. As for Christians committing atrocities invoking God's name, who and what examples of Jesus and the NT are they using to justify their crimes? I can easily do that for Islam but not Christianity. Surely YOU can see the difference.

"As for Christians committing atrocities invoking God's name, who and what examples of Jesus and the NT are they using to justify their crimes?"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Perhaps you're familiar with a little episode of history called the Inquisition? That's just for a start. Consider too:

- The Crusades (and the related attacks on Jewish communities in Europe as the Crusaders made their way to the "Holy Land").

- Pogroms in Russia by Russian Orthodox Christians against their Jewish neighbors. Likewise in Poland, with Catholics beating up on their Jewish countrymen.

- More recently, the "troubles" in Northern Ireland and that business about "ethnic cleansing" in Bosnia.

Other examples are too numerous to mention. Catholics and Protestants were at each others' throats for hundreds of years following the establishment of the Anglican, Lutheran, and other Protestant churches.

Perhaps the perpetrators of these crimes did not run around citing verses of the New Testament as eplicit justification of their actions (though I think that some of them did just that), but the motivation was in all cases religious.

"Perhaps you're familiar with a little episode of history called the Inquisition? That's just for a start. Consider too:

- The Crusades (and the related attacks on Jewish communities in Europe as the Crusaders made their way to the "Holy Land").

- Pogroms in Russia by Russian Orthodox Christians against their Jewish neighbors. Likewise in Poland, with Catholics beating up on their Jewish countrymen.

- More recently, the "troubles" in Northern Ireland and that business about "ethnic cleansing" in Bosnia.

Other examples are too numerous to mention. Catholics and Protestants were at each others' throats for hundreds of years following the establishment of the Anglican, Lutheran, and other Protestant churches.

Perhaps the perpetrators of these crimes did not run around citing verses of the New Testament as eplicit justification of their actions (though I think that some of them did just that), but the motivation was in all cases religious."

All that and you couldn't reference one NT quote or one deed by Jesus? I can do that all day long with Islam. Oh and the Crusades were in response to 400 years of Islamic aggression. What did you expect Europe to do? Sit back and take it?

A shame you cant differentiate between Christians doing bad things in contrast to Christianity and Muslims doing bad things in sync with Islam. But then thats what muliticulturalists do.

Pam tells me:
“Also noticed that your list of Muslim incursions all took place 249-460 years prior to the retribution (Crusades). Isn't that just a bit long to carry a grudge?”

I did not hear you chiding those Muslims who for a reason or no reason enumerate a long list of “crimes” committed by the West. At the top of that list are the Crusade Wars that happened over a thousand years ago, and which were a belated reaction to their behavior.

Susan Smith wrote "Christians Give God a Bad Name".

The problem is your definition of the word Christian. First, not all who call themselves "Christians" are Christians. Catholicism and liberal Protestantism is NOT Christianity. For not knowing it, it means you yourself is NOT a Christian. And by that, using your own words, you give true Christianity a BAD name.

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." (1 Corinthians 14:34)

This is madness. It's the christian god that gives humans a bad name.

MANILA, Philippines (CNS) -- A bishop in the southern Philippines reported receiving a letter threatening him with harm if he does not convert to Islam or pay "Islamic taxes."

Bishop Martin Jumoad of Isabela also told the Asian church news agency UCA News that he got text messages from Catholics saying they, too, had received threatening letters.

The bishop sent a copy of the letter July 19 to church-run Radio Veritas in Quezon City, northeast of Manila.

They said Bishop Jumoad should choose to convert to Islam or give "jizya," Islamic tax, to their group in exchange for protecting him in the "place of Muslims."

If he refuses to convert or pay, the letter threatened "force, weapons or war may be used" against him. It warned him not to feel safe even if he is "surrounded by soldiers" and cited bombings in various cities.

MANILA, Philippines (CNS) -- A bishop in the southern Philippines reported receiving a letter threatening him with harm if he does not convert to Islam or pay "Islamic taxes."

Bishop Martin Jumoad of Isabela also told the Asian church news agency UCA News that he got text messages from Catholics saying they, too, had received threatening letters.

The bishop sent a copy of the letter July 19 to church-run Radio Veritas in Quezon City, northeast of Manila.

They said Bishop Jumoad should choose to convert to Islam or give "jizya," Islamic tax, to their group in exchange for protecting him in the "place of Muslims."

If he refuses to convert or pay, the letter threatened "force, weapons or war may be used" against him. It warned him not to feel safe even if he is "surrounded by soldiers" and cited bombings in various cities.

Observer says:
I did not hear you chiding those Muslims who for a reason or no reason enumerate a long list of 'crimes' committed by the West. At the top of that list are the Crusade Wars that happened over a thousand years ago, and which were a belated reaction to their behavior."

I didn't see them posting here.

Besides, are you saying that you should be no better than they?

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You need to go get help immeadiately, you are out of control.