The pastor of the now too-well-known Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church occasionally wrote columns for the local newspaper, the Knoxville News-Sentinel. Last March, he wrote one entitled "Tolerance," in which he compared past intolerance of interracial couples to today's intolerance of gay couples.
"In the movie 'Hairspray,'" Rev. Chris Buice wrote, "the character Mabelle warns a newly formed interracial couple, 'You two better brace yourselves for a whole lotta ugly comin' at you from a never-ending parade of stupid.' We forget that it was not that long ago that the law forbade such relationships, even while some prominent segregationist politicians engaged in them. Today, a gay couple might encounter harassment and derision for simply holding hands in a public park."
Sunday morning, a whole lotta ugly entered the church's sanctuary in the form of a man who was angry about "the liberal movement" and its tolerance for gay couples, among other things. The man started firing a shotgun he bought from a pawnshop. He killed two people and injured seven others before he was wrestled to the floor and later arrested and charged with first-degree murder.
So now we can add liberals to the list of enemy combatants in America's culture war.
According to the News-Sentinel, Knoxville police department investigator Steve Still wrote in the search warrant that Jim David Adkisson, the man who was arrested in the rampage, went to the church "because of its liberal teachings and his belief that all liberals should be killed because they were ruining the country, and that he felt that the Democrats had tied his country's hands in the war on terror and they had ruined every institution in America with the aid of major media outlets."
Adkisson, who had served in the military, said "that because he could not get to the leaders of the liberal movement he would then target those that had voted them in office," the search warrant states. Among the items seized from Adkisson's house were three books: "The O'Reilly Factor," by television commentator Bill O'Reilly; "Liberalism is a Mental Disorder," by radio personality Michael Savage; and "Let Freedom Ring," by political pundit Sean Hannity.
The Unitarian Universalist Association might be the most liberal denomination in the country. Most members consider themselves part of a post-Christian religion that draws wisdom from all religions and philosophies. There is no central creed, but the denomination promotes a set of principles that includes a belief in "the inherent worth and dignity of every person."
David Gushee and Rachel Laser used a similar phrase earlier this month when they called on Barack Obama and John McCain "to bring a just end" to the culture wars.
"Gay and lesbian issues, like abortion, have also been tearing the nation apart," Gushee, an evangelical and professor at Mercer University, and Laser, a program director for the progressive think tank called Third Way, wrote in a guest column for On Faith.
"But on these issues too we can find a shared common value and shared path forward. That shared value is human dignity. We can all agree that all human beings are created in God's image and have and deserve an innate human dignity - even those with whom one differs or disagrees. We can all agree that honoring this human dignity is a high moral and religious calling."
"Senators McCain and Obama," they concluded, "each of you has great potential to model a new type of leadership. Each of you has the power to heal the country and carve a new path forward through our shared common values. We humbly submit our joint prayer that you, Senators McCain and Obama, help bring a just end to the culture wars."
That would help, but it's not their job to end the culture war. We all started it. We're all responsible for what we say, write and do that increases hostility towards liberals or conservatives or any group of people whose beliefs differ from ours.
Obviously, there was a lot more going on inside the Knoxville shooter's head, heart and soul than hatred of liberals. Police said his ex-wife once was a member of that church, that he was having trouble finding a job, and that his food stamps had been cut.
Angry, hateful and deranged people kill Amish school girls and Virginia college students and shoppers at a Nebraska mall. They kill Christians, Jews and Muslims, atheists and humanists, conservative and liberals, Republicans and Democrats, unitarians and trinitarians.
But there's a whole lotta ugly out there, coming at us from a never-ending parade of stupid. It doesn't need any encouragement.
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Comments (452)
It makes me so sad to see my sister's death used as fuel for a liberal vs conservative and atheist vs Christian food fight. She was a wonderful person. I knew her when she was a Christian. Her heart never changed. She continued to reflect God's love right up to the day she died. She was shot while trying to get a picture of a teenager she'd loved since Torie was a small child.
It's not about liberalism vs conservatism. In some ways Linda Lee was liberal and in other ways she was conservative. She was registered as a Democrat and that put her in the minoriity of what's left of our family. One of my daughters is a Democrat, but the rest of us are Republicans. That didn't stop all of us from loving each other. I like to read and listen to Bill O'Reilly but that didn't stop me from loving Linda Lee.
It saddens me to see the blame taken off of this evil man and put on conservative writers. He's trying to get out of this with an insanity plea. Talk like this only strengthens his case. I don't want to see him win that insanity plea.
August 17, 2008 9:00 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 17, 2008 09:00
Ron Moline wrote one of the best posts I've seen in awhile on one of these boards. I have thought that for some time and agree completely that these bitter exchanges never, ever change anyone's mind about anything.
August 10, 2008 2:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 10, 2008 14:56
You know what has been interesting to me? You guys from the UU church are talking about tolerance and acceptance out of one side of your mouth, and bashing the crap out of the right wing talk show hosts that David Adkisson was reading materials from out of the other side. Isn’t that kind of ridiculous? Savage or Bill didn’t make David do the things he did. David did the things he did.
The willingness of people to blame right wing conservatives for this shooting is the equivalent of blaming “fast food” restaurants for their children being obese. (i am sure there are some of you out there going, "but it is the fast food!!")
I am sorry for the people that died in this shooting. But the media is making a lot more out of this than it is even worth. He killed 2 people. We should be more worried about what Russia is doing in Georgia at this moment than what David Adkisson is doing in jail.
August 10, 2008 3:25 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 10, 2008 03:25
Actually, it should be noted that Fox has 3 stories on the event, but for some reason they don't show up in the search engine. However, they all strangely avoid the fact that he was apparently a big fan of two of their most popular pundits.
August 8, 2008 7:00 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 8, 2008 07:00
Like Athena, I am also a Unitarian Universalist.
The feelings I have are like those after 9/11.
The Ann Coulters, Bill O'Reillys, Michael Savages, Rush Limbaughs, Sean Hannitys (there are so many of them), have made the US an unsafe place. I wonder if I will be sitting in church when a gunman inspired by their hate, splatters my family brains on the wall.
I am UU because I want to make the world a better place. We give so much of our love, time and money helping others.
My dream is a purple America, one where we sit down and work together. I don't understand why people listen to them. Why is hate more powerful than love?
August 6, 2008 10:54 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 6, 2008 22:54
I agree with those contributors who have pointed out the vast difference between the hatred spewed out every day, for hours, by the right-wing media, and the sarcasm and wit of someone like Keith Oberman. I also agree that, over the past two decades, these commentators, with their large megaphones, are almost entirely responsible for the atmosphere of division and anger in our country today.
Having said all that, the most important point I wish to make is that I have not convinced one living soul of what I believe, by adding these comments. Readers are dug in: you either agree with me, or disagree with me, but it has nothing to do with my rhetoric.
Could it be possible for all of us of strong politcal opinions to agree that we suffer from self-righteousness, over-generalization, and rigid, right-wrong, good-evil thinking patterns? If somehow we could get there, it would be a beginning. I happen to think also that either McCain or Obama will try to begin this process, despite the heat of the campaign.
August 5, 2008 12:06 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 5, 2008 12:06
I find it interesting. Someone got me an appointment with a grief and trauma counselor for this morning. He's a survivor of the 1999 church shooting in Fort Worth. I looked up information about this shooting and noted that the shooter was unemployed and blamed conservatives, especially Baptists.
It makes me very sad that you guys are using this tragedy to fuel a liberal vs conservative food fight. You make it sound like a grand conspiracy when it was one evil, self centered, and evil man who murdered my sister. He deprived her of the remaining years of her life and the ability to reflect on God once more before her death. He deprived a small child of a caretaker she depended on.
You are saying that you are wanting to stop liberals and conservatives from fighting, but you are doing the very thing you say you want to stop. I will be glad when this man stands trial and receives justice.
August 5, 2008 8:34 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 5, 2008 08:34
Well, I think you'll find, Leaf, that what conservatives call 'liberal hate' involves us daring to question the authority of the people who incited this fellow to violence.
They call 'us' 'babykillers' and whine 'You're so intolerant' when we don't tacitly agree to *their8 intolerance.
August 4, 2008 3:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 4, 2008 15:29
Being Canadian and viewing this "discussion" from the perspective of a neighbour, or an outsider, I am amazed: not so much by the UU tragedy, nor the endlessly convoluted theories of why; no, the madness and heroism showing both the very best and the absolute worst in humanity are sadly (in this day and age) almost commonplace. The greatest shock, for me, is the savage (as in uncivilized, not noble) dichotomy, which exists between the Liberals and Conservatives. Forgive my naivety...but do you people really hate each other that much?
From the outside looking in it appears, to many, that your nation is on the verge of ripping itself apart. Regardless of sweeping generalizations and a knack for labelling that is difficult to credit, I truly hope each one of you finds within that spark of God, or conscience, or social evolution, which binds together all. A great man once said something along these lines: “though the bonds of affection may be strained, they must never be broken...”
August 3, 2008 6:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 3, 2008 18:57
This isn't a bug in the program, it's a feature. What do you expect when the Republican candidate declares that the Democratic candidate is a traitor who wants America to lose wars?
August 3, 2008 1:10 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 3, 2008 13:10
It's definitely time to stop the political intolerance in this country. Talk radio has become all liberal-hate, all the time.
It's always been amazing to me the degree to which these conservatives are able to malign Democrats and convince people that they are somehow evil...
Even though Democrats make up 50% of the U.S. and include people who contribute a lot to our society: teachers, doctors, nurses, scientists, the working poor, the educated, and all the good rich people who want to give back to the country that has given them so much.
August 2, 2008 5:38 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 2, 2008 17:38
Wow,
So many intolerant comments by liberals. Honestly, take a look at yourselves sometimes. Really read over this list at what people say about conservatives and the right wing on this blog. How can you call us intolerant?
Take a look at the far left, the Bill Ayers of this world. Both sides of the culture war have people that should be condemed, not just right wingers. No negative comments about liberals from me, there's enough negativity and divisiveness on this blog for today.
July 31, 2008 4:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 16:49
Athena,
That was a stunning must-read from the Unitarian blogger. I was not dry-eyed at the end, to say the least.
It is so hard now not to hate the right wing spewers of venom, the hatebots, the droids of dissension. I know we must not, but I hope I never meet any of them in person. I honestly don't know what I would do. Especially now.
And Fox never covered the story - my God. How can they call themselves journalists with a straight face? How can they even sleep at night?
I am a dedicated Episcopalian, but I think I may go to a Unitarian service to see for myself. I think the two churches have a lot in common.
July 31, 2008 3:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 15:39
Here's a blog entry from a Unitarian blogger that should circulate everywhere:
By: Nicole Belle
I am a Unitarian.
That should be such a simple, insignificant statement of fact, nothing more than just another box on a census form to tick. Today, however, it feels more like a war cry.
This is a difficult post for me to write because my emotions are so knotted it’s hard to make sense of what I feel. I am ashamed to admit that my first, overwhelming emotion was intense anger - not so much at Jim Adkisson, the man who walked into a Unitarian church in Knoxville and opened fire on innocent people, killing two and injuring eight more. That happens, unfortunately, with all too frequent regularity in America these days, and for a depressingly repetitive litany of reasons - depression, frustration, confused anger and overlooked or ignored mental illness. The Adkisson killings is not an uncommon event these days.
What is, however, was his target - Unitarians. Members of a church renown for its pacifism, compassion and tolerance. We welcome anyone - men and women of any colour and nationality, of any religious or ethnic background, or sexuality. We even welcome conservatives.
My anger instead is concentrated on those people who callously use such vulnerable people, stirring up their bigotry and discontent, egging them to acts of violence. People like Michelle Malkin, Michael Savage, Bill O’Reilly, and Rush Limbaugh who have made lucrative careers out of liberal-bashing. People who write things like “Liberalism is a Mental Health Disorder”, “Let Freedom Ring,” and “The O’Reilly Factor,” - all literature found in Adkisson’s home after the shooting. People like Ann Coulter who advocated attacking liberals with baseball bats. The hate-filled spewage from the right-wing media mavens is and should be held accountable for inciting such acts of violence and murder, those heartless, soulless, conscienceless opportunists who have gleefully participated in encouraging the Adkissons of America to take out their anger and hatred and frustration on liberals.
People died. Good people, decent caring loving people, with friends and families. They had names: Linda Kraeger and Greg McKendry, a sixty-one year old woman and a foster father who heroically sacrificed his life to save children and his fellow congregation. They had friends and family and people who loved them and will grieve for their loss.
I make my living writing, words are my stock and trade. I have no words adequate enough to express my utter contempt and loathing at this moment for every rabid talk show host and every smarmy pundit who ever espoused the killing or injury of another human being because of his or her political beliefs. If I could, I’d have every single one of them arrested as accessories to murder. The blood on their hands is not metaphorical any longer - it’s real. And they know it, if the bizarre backpedalling of the Malkinesque-ilk is to be believed, so desperate to distance themselves from such actual blood and death that they can shamelessly claim Adkisson is really a liberal trying to discredit conservatives. Despicable.
The blogosphere is already ripping into that moral sickness that has so pervaded the rightwing that such acts have become not only possible, but excusable - a couple posters on the Free Republic had little sympathy for the dead; what kind of Christian church, after all, not only accepts gays but would even think of putting on a production of ‘Annie’? Grounds enough for mass murder, to that warped mindset.
But… I am a Unitarian.
And in the wake of the anger is pride. Despite my sadness that people were targeted for their choice of church, I have never before been so proud to be a Unitarian, as well as a liberal. Those liberals the rightwing continue to denigrate as weak-kneed cowards proved to be anything but. McKendry was the first to confront Adkisson, to stop him from going any further into the church, before several men rushed Adkisson after several shots had been fired, his victims already covered in blood. They have names too: A history professor, John Bohstedt, and Jamie Parkey, just ordinary people. But people who still prove the very best in America still exists. ‘Someone grabbed the gun and we just kind of dog-piled him to the floor’, Parkey said. His wife, Amy, described Adkisson - not as a villain, not as an evil man, not with hatred - but as ‘a man who was hurt in the world and feeling nothing was going his way. He turned the gun on people who were mostly likely to treat him lovingly and compassionately and be the ones to help someone in that situation.’ I wept when I read those words.
Because… I am a Unitarian.
I was born and raised in a faith that teaches tolerance and acceptance and forgiveness. At the moment, it’s quite difficult for me to live up to the tenets of my faith, but I’ve lived my entire life following them, if sometimes imperfectly. Hate is easy. Blame and criticism and anger and revenge are easy. It’s what those talk show hosts and political pundits and politicians on the right have exploited to cultivate their poisonous atmosphere - and I don’t want to be anything like them.
So I will choose the hard way. I will try to forgive the Adkissons of the world who have been manipulated and conned into violence. I don’t think I’m quite ready yet to forgive the Coulters and the O’Reillys and the Malkins and the Limbaughs of this world just yet… but I will try to work on not hating them quite as much as I know they hate me. It’s a step. Maybe tomorrow I can do better.
Today Our Kid forwarded me an email from Cilla Raughley, the UUA’s District Executive, sent out to congregational ministers, religious educators, and board presidents. In it she pleaded for calm, patience and wisdom. And asked that Unitarians might want to wear UU T-shirts or jewelry to show their solidarity with those who share our religious values, whether they are Unitarians or not. She also asked that anyone wishing to send a remembrance card on behalf of Greg McKendry and his widow, Barbara, could do so: Tennessee Valley UU Church, 2931 Kingston Pike, Knoxville, TN 37919-4624, as well as to the neighbouring Westside Unitarian Fellowship, 616 Fretz Road, Knoxville, TN 37919-1604, which is where Linda Kraeger would have normally been on a Sunday morning.
And if a reminder was ever needed why I am and will always be a Unitarian, it is that during the candlelight service held in memory of those who died, a few of the children who had been performing in the cast of ‘Annie’ broke into song. They sang ‘Tomorrow’, in a heart-wrenching reminder that the sun will come out tomorrow.
July 31, 2008 3:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 15:02
anti-fascist:
"And read some biology. Until you can survive UNAIDED outside the womb, you are not a person. You're just an orderly growth with the potential for existence."
Unaided? When did you start caring for yourself unaided? At 6 months were you making your own bottles and changing your own diapers? What about 2? 5? Do you then think its okay to kill all children up unto the point when they are old enough to survie by themselves "Unaided"? Please elaborate.
July 31, 2008 1:53 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 13:53
"SISL,
"Most women want to feel protected with their man. It's a fact of life."
If we don't need to protect ourselves *from* our man. Feeling protected is a nice change, really, People who blame this guy's berzerk blaze of hatred and blame it on changing gender roles, instead of people scapegoating 'liberals' for their own failures, under the tutelage of hate-speaking conservative media and religion, ...are part of the problem, here.
The real man wasn't the guy who took a shotgun to a kids' church play. It was the Unitarians, ( I *think* those were all men, not sure) who stopped him, at the cost of two of their own lives. Not the man who wanted 'women to know their place' and decided to try and prove it with psycho behavior.
Turns out there were Pagans, there, too.
July 31, 2008 1:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 13:25
SISL,
Most women want to feel protected with their man. It's a fact of life. Women voted for your 'patriarchal' government, and they rejected Hillary in numbers large enough to deny her the white house.
Lumping all men together is just as biased as lumping all women, or blacks, or whites, or asians. Not all men feel/felt they were the almighty kings of their families, not all women felt subservient. Your statement discredits an older generation of men and women that survived the recession, beat the nazis and the empire of japan, and made all manner of sacrifice for the better world we inherited. Eleanor Roosevelt was far more influential and a greater leader than any feminists today. The globalized economy has brought women and children into sweatshop factories in China, Korea, the Philippines, India and other places that make all our cheap products now. It's not helping women, or men, except those raking in obscene profits in greedy, amoral corporations.
July 31, 2008 1:07 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 13:07
Bill wrote: "Try to find any mention the killings or the individual that started all this with his delusion on the Fox News website. It's not there using their search engine. That's media bias for you."
Its true. I also checked out other news organizations and, like Fox News, I used the alleged gunman's name "Adkisson" for the search. This is a mix of what would be called liberal and conservative news outlets. Everyone but Fox has an article about this event, even those overseas. Very telling indeed:
FoxNews.com- 0
CNN.com- 20+
ABCNews.com- 12
BBC.com- 1
Independent.co.uk- 1
MSNBC.com-3
WashingtonPost.com- 11
WashingtonTimes.com- 18
NYTimes.com- 3
NYPost.com- 2
NYSun.com- 2
USAToday.com- 5
Reuters.com- 3
IHT.com - 11 (International Herald Tribune)
lemonde.fr - 1 (Le Monde - France)
July 31, 2008 1:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 13:04
"Black folks did not get their rights and the civil rights amendment until the rioting in the 60's. You think there is no connection?"
You're proposing a *riot* of your local Pagans and Unitarians? Gods. Be thankful that's not where we are. That's not our way, nor the ways those people were shot over.
We're trying to *stop* a culture war, not start a shooting one.
July 31, 2008 12:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 12:57
The scapegoating of others for their beliefs, skin color, religion, etc. has always been popular with knuckle-draggers. I think it tends to become more pronounced and more frequent in times of social change or upheaval.
After losing Congress, and probably the presidency in November, you can almost smell the desperation on the right.
Desperate people do desperate things. Look for more of this to happen.
July 31, 2008 12:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 12:56
Chopin224:
Blacks got their rights in the '60s because of a guy named Martin Luther King. THAT is the connection.
July 31, 2008 12:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 12:41
To Paganplace:
Black folks did not get their rights and the civil rights amendment until the rioting in the 60's. You think there is no connection?
July 31, 2008 12:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 12:25
SOK, Athena... Certainly, this whole episode represents one of the nagging fears we live with.... how many times do we hear the hateful conservative alander and hate-speech, and worry about someone who believes it having a really bad day.
About it being about people we love.
But, we remember the Gods will be with us on any such dark day, and we go on, even if all some conservatives can say about it is, 'Well, I still think gay marriage is wrong, and I still hate liberals.'
It's sad and it's sickening, but that's the world right now. The Sun'll come out tomorrow, though, right?
July 31, 2008 12:06 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 12:06
Bill....Yes it is ironic that a Google search with the right keywords takes you to the Fox story but the Fox search engine won't find the same story.
Also...no mention of the books in the Fox story. If this guy was black and attacked a white Southern Baptist church and had Obama's book at home, Fox would be wallpapered 24/7 with it.
Cowards and liars...
yourcomments@foxnews.com or 212-301-3000
July 31, 2008 12:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 12:05
Bill....You are absolutely right. Fox News has NOTHING about the Knoxville shooting on their website....
Complain at yourcomments@foxnews.com
or call 212-301-3000 and ask for the comment line.
Filthy cowards!!!
First you ethnically cleanse then you journalistically cleanse.
July 31, 2008 11:57 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 11:57
PS - Google will find it, just not the Fox News search engine
July 31, 2008 11:51 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 11:51
Complain about the influence of Hannity and O'Reilly and the corrupt Fox News Channel that provides them a platform at...
yourcomments@foxnews.com
They need to feel some heat!
July 31, 2008 11:50 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 11:50
Try to find any mention the killings or the individual that started all this with his delusion on the Fox News website. It's not there using their search engine. That's media bias for you.
July 31, 2008 11:48 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 11:48
Rationalist wrote:
"I do agree what Mr. Greginnyk have said. The so called "Liberalism" evolving since mid 60's "Hippie Culture" era, and insinuated itself in mainstream society, and world Cultural heritage at large. This "Liberalism" is destroying the very foundation of Human Habitat, the core NIDUS Family structure- built on by people like Husband, wife, Children. To day this basic structure is crumbling due to "Liberal" Pseudo thesis and doctrine."
Not to be petty, but wouldn't you think that someone who signs a letter "Rationalist" would know something about: verb tense and number ("Mr. Greginny have said"), sentence structure (you need a noun and a verb), spelling, capitalization, and simple comma punctuation?
And what does "Liberal Pseudo thesis" mean?
Please learn to write before you offer up your neanderthal ideas for consideration.
July 31, 2008 11:30 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 11:30
Sorry, PP. Was being sarcastic there.
Frankly, I intend to live proudly as a liberal. And if someone decides to go hunting witches, I hope I die as honorably as that gentleman that threw himself in front of the crazy man with a shotgun. Or, at the very least, take a few more of the crazies out with me before I go.
July 31, 2008 11:25 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 11:25
Typical Confederate. Idiotic, ruthless, and hypocritically God-less. Confederates are a disgrace to America. It is good that they Lost The War. Every once in a while they re-surface like dirty termites.
July 31, 2008 11:01 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 11:01
Hillman wrote: "Okey dokey. Then how about gay people take the word 'marriage' and you settle for 'civil union'? No? Then they aren't equal, are they? And no matter how you dice it civil unions aren't the same legally."
You argument would suggest men and women are not equal in America because men are called "male" and women are called "female". But they are considered equal under the law, and that is what matters.
The legal issue is not with the word, it is about equal protection. If "civil unions" offer the same legal protections (inheritance, medical decisions, taxation, etc) then you can call it what you like. Right now gay couples who consider themselves lifetime partners do not have the same equal protections as heterosexual couples who can enter into marriage and obtain the favorable protections of inheritance, taxation, medical decisions, etc. That is the issue.
I have always thought something akin to civil unions are necessary but not just to make gay couples equally protected. Take for example a person or family that takes in grandparants. All legal matters must be done through an attorney, and taxation is handled by making them "dependents". I always thought that any people who decide to live together and want to take care of each other should have a siomple legal mechanism allowing the protections available under a "civil union". It could be gay couples, friends living together, family members who live together, etc.
I remember a college friend whose mom, after his dad died, lived with a woman who also lost her husband. Both were about 55. They were good friends who lived together during their old age for about 20 years, until they died. They were not "gay" but could have formed a civil union to formalize their close friendship and shared living arrangement. Maybe once civil unions become normalized it will be extended, or maybe it won't need to and people will simply learn to use it for these purposes. Just my $0.02.
July 31, 2008 10:46 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 10:46
Disgusting, Chopin.
There's nothing to be won by 'fighting' like that. People who *want* us divided against each other say that. And look what happens.
July 31, 2008 10:40 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 10:40
Contrary to the stereotype, some liberals are quite comfortable with guns and know how to use them.
Until we live in a country that lives up to its hype, I'll be sleeping with my two old friends, Smith and Wesson.
July 31, 2008 10:33 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 10:33
"While I stand firm on my own belief that marriage is between one man and one woman, I strongly back civil unions giving gay couples the same LEGAL rights as the rest of us."
Okey dokey. Then how about gay people take the word 'marriage' and you settle for 'civil union'?
No? Then they aren't equal, are they?
And no matter how you dice it civil unions aren't the same legally. One insurmountable obstacle is international. That is, foreign countries don't typically recognize various forms of marriage. It's either marriage or not, once you set foot outside the US. So for civil union couples they instantly lose all legal standing once they travel.
Plus, of course, there's all the social benefit of the term marriage. Use of the term marriage helps couples stay together.
Why should the power of that word be used only for strengthening straight relationships, not gay ones?
Again, would you settle for civil unions and let gays have marriage?
July 31, 2008 10:19 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 10:19
Bud wrote: "These people [many gun owners] realize that the proliferation of guns within our society is a serious problem and do all they can to stop it. But alas these people are invariantly lumped together with the crazy hillbillies that go on shooting rampages throughout the nation."
No, these people, like other gun control advocates are attacked by the NRA from all sides in order to maintain the profits and complete freedom of the gun industry and its profits. If you think its about the 2nd amendment you are very wrong. It about money, as most things people fight over are.
Take the recent overturning of the DC handgun ban. It was not a complete gun ban as the NRA depicted it. You could own rifles, shotguns and other types of guns, just not handguns due to their use in crime in DC. Anyone who wanted to protect themselves could get a weapon. But that was not enough for the NRA since it prevented sales of handguns. Its the sale, not what happens after the sale, that the NRA cares about.
Consider the NRA's initial stand against trigger locks. Now why would the NRA be against trigger locks? It has nothing to do with how you use the gun after purchase or your ability to purchse. But it would require gun makers to provide them, an added cost they would either have to eat or pass along. Its akin to requiring car makers to put seat belts in cars, something the car makers fought when it was being considered as a requirement for the same reasons, eat the cost or pass it along.
But its the NRA, an association of sportsmen and gun owners that was fighting trigger locks. It opened my eyes as to who the NRA really worked for. They get their funding from those who are largely responsible gun owners and sportsmen and then it seems use those funds to lobby for the gun industry to maintain and increase profits, allowing the gun industry even more profit as they do not need to hire their own lobbiests. A sweet deal, except for the responsible members of the NRA.
July 31, 2008 10:09 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 10:09
Garyl1, your post is, unfortunately, true. While I stand firm on my own belief that marriage is between one man and one woman, I strongly back civil unions giving gay couples the same LEGAL rights as the rest of us.
As for the Unitarian Church, this "nutcase" and walking advertisement for gun legislation, could have just as easily chosen a Quaker Meeting House, Congregational Church, Episcopal Church and more. There are some pretty liberal Reform Congregations out there as well.
It is my hope that this cretin is prosecuted to the full extent of the law in what is a "hate" crime. Guess the idiot wants to set up concentration camps for liberals as well. A disgrace to this country.
July 31, 2008 10:02 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 10:02
When I was in my 20's, I was shocked but not surprised when the National Guard shot and killed 4 unarmed demonstrators at Jackson State and then 4 more at Kent State. You Liberals and we radicals need to arm ourselves and to take out the O'Reilly's, Hannitys and that Nazi Bimbo Ann Coulter. Time for them to go. They like to use the term spineless liberals. They should be shown that radicals are not wimps at all. Burn, baby, burn. That plant spewing lead or mercury into our air needs to be blown up. I am too old to do this but somebody needs to. Gil Scot Heron was wrong, the revolution WILL be televised.
July 31, 2008 9:34 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 09:34
My life has been threatened by hateful men several times.
Once: A man threatened to beat me to death with a baseball bat because all children needed to be taught a lesson. What did I do? I walked in front of his house. how did I respond to his threat? I just kept walking. 2 weeks later he was arrested. In his house they found 50 bags full of garbage and 2 dead teenagers.
Once: A guy held a gun to my head and told me to have sex with his friend. When I refused he put the gun away and drove me home.
Once: A guy pointed a gun at me and told me to stop walking through his yard. I inored him and just kept walking but I never walked through his yard again.
Once: a man held his hands around my throat and told me he just had to kill me. He didn't really have a reason he just needed to do it. I kicked him as hard as I could and ran for my life. 2 years later I was granted a divorce and custody of our 3 children.
I condidered myself to be a christian in those days. I doubt my religion had anyhting to do with any of those threats. I'm sure these guys gained a few inches in their man area from their acts of "bravery". I suppose I probably deserved some of those threats. Maybe my exsitance is that offensive to men.
My point is that this shooting probably had NOTHING to do with religion. It was probably more about a guy with a mental disorder who would have struck out at anyone. If not UU's then someone else.
I personally believe that christianity is the root of all evil. Yet I am confident that I will never take it upon myself to eliminate Christians.
I am a member of a Unitarian Univeresalist church and even after this "random" shooting I still feel safer as a UU then I ever did in my christian days. For this guy to shoot UU's for their beliefs is rediculous. UU's talk a lot about what they believ but few of them take any action. UU's for the most part are all bark and no bite really.
I long for the day when religion is as rediculous in the eyes of the world as it is in my eyes.
Why don't we save the planet, or feed the poor? Surely there must be a more productive way to use our energy.
Why can't we all just get along?
July 31, 2008 9:30 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 09:30
To Greginnyc:
It's good to know there are still plenty of overly masculine men out there complaining about how women have lost respect for the male gender (note my sarcasm). Please spare us all the talk about "100 years ago," and the "back in my day," ridiculous "factual" information about how people lived. Maybe you should take note that if a woman stepped out of line 100 years ago she could be beaten by her husband with a stick no bigger than his forearm. Or perhaps you failed to notice that if an African-American was lynched 100 years ago, no one would even take notice. That sounds like an impressive society you've conjured up (again note my sarcasm). If you want to be a "real" man, than own up to the fact there will always be women out there that are smarter, stronger, more ambitious, and more successful then you will ever be. Get over yourself.
July 31, 2008 8:44 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 08:44
I think we are underemphasizing the moral culpability of demagogues like O'Reilly, Hannity and Coulter who have made careers out of scapegoating liberals for all the ills, real and imagined, of our society. If they were not deliberately purveying falsehoods (big lies, really) for their own benefit they could not be blamed for some mentally ill person taking them seriously. Since they are deliberately spreading lies, they are morally culpable when some deranged person takes them seriously.
Decent people need to demand that they accept responsibility for their hate mongering.
July 31, 2008 8:18 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 08:18
"Hey, actually, I think that's fine. Let's regulate gun operation just as we do car operation."
In many states we already do. Take Illinois, for example. One of the most restrictive states in the nation with respects to gun ownership. To (legally) own any firearm, one needs a FOID card issued from the State Police Department. They do an extensive background check for any past criminal activity or mental health problems. If any are found, you do not get the card. If you have the card and any violations occur, the card is taken away. To purchase any gun within the state, the card is an absolute requirement. (Yes, there are loopholes - you can purchase the gun in another state and bring it in, but it is illegal to own the firearm without the card.) So in my state, it's actually easier to get a driver's license than it is to get a FOID.
What gets my goat is that people don't realize that there are responsible people who do own firearms. These people keep them locked at all times, use them for target shooting or are simply collectors. These people support restrictive measures to keep their firearms out of the hands of those who should not have them. These people realize that firearms have the potential to do great harm and do not have problems with gun control measures and keeping the ownership bar high as long as that bar is surmountable by law-abiding folks such as themselves. These people realize that the proliferation of guns within our society is a serious problem and do all they can to stop it. But alas these people are invariantly lumped together with the crazy hillbillies that go on shooting rampages throughout the nation. They are labeled as "gun loving fanatics" who use their firearms to compensate for their genital shortcomings (my favorite slam).
We love to criticize and ridicule those that do not agree with us, those whose opinions differ from ours. One finds this mentality everywhere; on the gun control debate, the abortion debate, the prostitution debate, the religion debates, the political debates, etc. Perhaps that's what the pastor from the now too-well-known Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church was trying to teach us. It's called Tolerance and respect for the viewpoints of others even when we don't agree with them.
July 31, 2008 8:11 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 08:11
Hey, if you can't shoot up a few unbelievers, what good is religion?
July 31, 2008 12:30 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 00:30
"Don't put words into my mouth, but on another note "if Adkinson would have asked the UU church for help, they would have given it to him freely - regardless of his beliefs or ideology."
Right, like you know that for sure......."
Anonymous - have you ever MET any UU's? If you had, you would not be asking that silly question.
July 31, 2008 12:01 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 31, 2008 00:01
" Athena:
"I guess Adkinsson was just doing a little bit of Old Testament-style smiting of the unbelievers, then?"
Well, Athena, this kind of little shoot-em up personal Apocalypse should have gone out with 'Mutual Assured Destruction' and all that.
We, collectively, at least, are gonna *live.*
It's about time we all started acting the part.
July 30, 2008 11:54 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 30, 2008 23:54
Brambleton wrote: "I believe Fate was implicitly making the argument that a prohibition on gun ownership would prevent these types of things from happening. While that may be true, it's also silly and unrealistic. If we applied that same logic to driving, we would have to revoke the drivers licenses of everybody in America, given that at some point, someone out there will use their car as a weapon or try to drive while intoxicated."
I don't think I was making that argument, implicitly or explicitly, but your analogy is silly. You see, cars have useful purposes that can on rare occasion kill people through accident or improper use. Hand guns on the other hand have no purpose except to kill people and can, through accident or improper use, kill people.
Right now I'm more interested in how this man obtained his gun. Was it legally bought or bought second hand or through a gun show without a background check. Time will tell as America once again lives through more death and destruction to keep the gun lovers happy.
July 30, 2008 11:01 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 30, 2008 23:01
I guess Adkinsson was just doing a little bit of Old Testament-style smiting of the unbelievers, then?
July 30, 2008 10:48 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 30, 2008 22:48
This twisted SOB Adkisson and his ilk has convinced me that if you can't beat them, join them. So, this fag is getting a gun.
When I have to worry about being shot in a restaurant http://speakout.com/activism/apstories/9977-1.html
or strung up on a fence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard
or attacked while walking down the street
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=2660
It makes me realize that I'm not safe in a society which rewards media stars who actively encourage others to acts of violence against me, and who then demurely state that they're oh, so, surprised.
From now on, this fag is locked and loaded. I pray to God that I never need it. That it comes to this is shame - my shame, and ours.
July 30, 2008 10:35 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 30, 2008 22:35
" Arminius:
Paganplace, if ya gotta go, go in peace. I'm probably gonna call it a night soon. The Braves are losing again, and the blog seems to have lost its head of steam."
Eh, could be it's no occasion for steam. Losing heads, on the other hand... :)
Can't help but root for the Braves, though. They're sorta displaced Bostonians down here, too. :)
July 30, 2008 9:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 30, 2008 21:56
*taptapping fingernail on desk.*
As for the rest of you. Pick a holy Name. Any.
This. And all that led up to it.
Not OK.
Full Stop.
Dig?
July 30, 2008 9:48 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 30, 2008 21:48
Paganplace, if ya gotta go, go in peace. I'm probably gonna call it a night soon. The Braves are losing again, and the blog seems to have lost its head of steam.
July 30, 2008 9:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 30, 2008 21:47
You know, Arminius? This moral relativism and all. Selfishly, I hope my partner of eight years gets to not have to fight over my corpse and belonging when I croak, and some poor conservative Christian is gonna just *have* to marry a donkey.
And if someone in middle school unfortunately finds out what a condom is, then obviously, people need to get blown away in church to protect us from a 'culture of death.'
I mean, we're just all sinning to beat the band, here.
July 30, 2008 9:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 30, 2008 21:28
Anyway, Arminius, maybe I'll just leave this to you. Clearly, your co-religionists have had magically-conferred a whole Hell of a lot of unquestionable righteousness, so really, it should be all footnotes from here.
Bright Lady, but I'm impressed with all this goodness. It's almost like I wasn't some vicious liberal suggesting the victims of a hate-based shooting didn't actually 'have it coming' in some way.
July 30, 2008 9:20 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 30, 2008 21:20
"There has been only one Christian. They caught him and crucified him.......early."
Mark Twain - Notebook, 1898
July 30, 2008 9:17 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 30, 2008 21:17
I mean, ya know, Zzim, we've *apparently* just been so *horridly putting out* the Christian conservatives you are or are not, depending what time it is, that someone's pissed off enough about us not committing mass suicide cause bin Laden made a video, that it's our fault is someone goes to a pawnshop, writes a four