"A Whole Lotta Ugly" in Church Shooting

Add liberals to the culture war list? They're at or near the top of the list and have been for years. Listen to Rush Limbaugh or Sean Hannity or any of the copycat right-wing radio rant shows. Replace "liberals" with "juden" and you pretty much get the idea.

So what do O'Reilly, Hanity, and Savage have to say about apparently feeding this man's hatred?

This is why you gotta be nuts to give people like this guns. Conservatives kill, always have, always will.

The not-so-funny thing is that the agents of intolerance (Hannity, Limbaugh etc.) do not really believe in all the garbage they throw out there. Their motivation is commerce and ratings. What other than a loud voice and a superficial articulate ability give them the credibility and qualifications to comment on the state of our society?

Liberals slaughter babies in the womb every day. How could they not be in the culture wars?

Every single day I get up I wish that the right wing nuts would just go away - forever. Imagine how nice life would be with these close minded, totally uninformed, slogan spewing, fact ignoring Neanderthals. I live for the day we can take our country back from these abject fools.

Isn't this the logical outcome from a whole political movement based on fear and hatred? This isn't surprising in any way. The venom that people like Hannity, O'Reilly and their ilk spew from their pulpits at Fox News and talk radio can have no other outcome other than this.

I second GaryL1's comment. Rush is teaching people that 'liberals' are sub-human. It is easy to see that hate mongers are motivated by greed, but how can one counteract this?

Posted by Conservative:
Liberals slaughter babies in the womb every day. How could they not be in the culture wars?

And conservatives love to deny universal health benefits to those babies that are born. The only culture war is the war against stupidit. This constant fretting about a clump of cells that are NOT a human being is getting tiresome. At least we can be grateful that the conservative religious nuts have stopped bombing women's health clinics and shooting doctors.

People... read all the coverage about this shooter before you all go on your own cyber-rampage.

He didn't just hate homosexuals, he hated everybody... neighbors and friends say he hated all Christians, liberals, blacks, gays, and his ex-wife. From what we know about the note he left, he was mad about not being able to find a job. Also his wife used to be part of this Unitarian group too, so the attack in some way was payback for his wife leaving him.

What scares me most is that a lot of people on the net are using this act of hatred to spin more hatred of Christians on the net.

Is the message of this man's attack really, "Christians deserve to die?"

If that's the message you get, then are you saying that you agree with this wing nut?

Unless you can cite examples of O'Reilly, Hannity, and Savage advocating the murder of liberals, the suggestion that they are to blame is ludicrous. I have yet to figure out why conservative voices dominate radio, but it's disingenuous to pretend that no liberal believes that "all conservatives should be killed because they were ruining the country, and feel that the Republicans had tied this country's hands in the war on terror and they had ruined every institution in America with the aid of major media outlets."

No. Sorry. We're all equally not responsible for creating an angry culture. To put it succinctly there's simply no equivalent on the left to the vitriol of the right. I'm sick of those in the media who try to display their "professionalism" by taking the easy way out and inevitably saying both sides are to blame. Sometimes in life - and politics - there really are perpetrators and victims.

How sad that our great nation has people of influence who encourage acts of violence to those who don't agree with them or who have beliefs, traditions or customs which are "different". Perhaps the adage of loving ones neighbor has no meaning to them!

yeah,yeah,yeah,but what would dear Sally do?

At the same time, I often think that questions posted like this over a comment box are a provocation. You can almost count the number of seconds until the 'chat' here descends into senseless name-calling. We just need to re-invent the ways we communicate with each other.

Neither Savage nor Olbermann have elevated our knowledge or compassion. We've succeeded in inventing a lot of methods of interacting (blogs, cable news, chat, automobile traffic) that subtract the human factor - and we've invented nothing yet that improves on or really even approximates the value of face-to-face interaction.

Why is it that there are never any terrorist attacks by Liberals? Seriously. This guy, the Christians bombing & shooting up planned parenthood clinics, the Oklahoma City building, the Unabomber, 9/11, lynchings, people killing people because they're gay... It goes on and on! Why is it that we NEVER hear about atheists bombing mega churches? When was the last time a bunch of marauding gay people beat up somebody because they were straight? Liberals aren't shooting people over their politics.

I'm not trying to be an @ss here, I really wonder why it is that all of the political violence in the United States is coming from one direction.

Anyway, I wonder if he had one of these:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v642/shakespeares_sister/libhuntingpermit.jpg

It is truly sickening to think that a man could be so consumed with hatred and anger that he thought the best course of action was to take a sawed-off shotgun to a church and aim it at children. Yet, if he immersed himself in the writings of sick people like Michael Savage, it becomes much less surprising. The most onerous legacy of the past 8 years will be the minds twisted by fear and rage, all in the name of politics.

"Gay and lesbian issues, like abortion, have also been tearing the nation apart," Gushee, an evangelical and professor at Mercer University, and Laser, a program director for the progressive think tank called Third Way, wrote in a guest column for On Faith.

Huh? When did abortion become a "gay and lesbian" issue? And when's the last time that a gay man or his partner had an abortion?

Here is where the problem with uber-right zealots lie. This rhetoric, which the bloviators speak tounge in cheek - hardly believing or following half of these ideals aside from lower capital gains-, attracts and emboldens the crazies. It's not the derangeds fault, its this baby killing, gay loving, pot smoking, tree hugging Left. Fox's indignation, fire, brimstone, and morning "friends" helped pull that trigger. If I had to defend the guy, id pin all of this on Fox, try to get an insanity ruling. How great would that be. As if its needed, we'd have more proof that the crazies really do love that Fox news

I'm a middle of the road conservative and completely disagree with far left liberal ideology.
I sometimes enjoy a hearty debate with them but just like the Democratic party, there are nuts on the Rupublican side of the aisle as well.

This will never change as long as human nature remains a factor.

But to make blanket statements that the Republican base and conservatives in general condone the murder of liberals, (as whacky as most liberals are), is ludicrous, and these statements only reinforce the absurdity of liberal beliefs.

This murderer doesn't mirror my beliefs as a conservative in the least, and my condolences go out to the victims and their families.

"Liberals slaughter babies in the womb every day. How could they not be in the culture wars?"

How fast the debate degenerates! I think the point here is that if you're not denouncing what this man did - regardless of his motivation - you are tacitly supporting it. When you say, "It was a terrible thing to do, but ...", you are tacitly supporting his actions. When you write, "Well, if liberals wouldn't ...", you promote his actions.

Conservative, you are the voice that plants the seed that sprouts into the violence of a man like Jim David Adkisson, you focus his rage.

To Conservative:
Some facts about abortion, should you take the time to become informed. From the Guttmacher Institute.

• Legal restrictions on abortion do not affect its incidence. For example, the abortion rate is 29 in Africa, where abortion is illegal in many circumstances in most countries, and it is 28 in Europe, where abortion is generally permitted on broad grounds. The lowest rates in the world are in Western and Northern Europe, where abortion is accessible with few restrictions. [1]

• Where abortion is legal and permitted on broad grounds, it is generally safe, and where it is illegal in many circumstances, it is often unsafe. For example, in South Africa, the incidence of infection resulting from abortion decreased by 52% after the abortion law was liberalized in 1996. [3]

• Fifty percent of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25: Women aged 20–24 obtain 33% of all abortions, and teenagers obtain 17%.[7]

• Thirty-seven percent of abortions occur to black women, 34% to non-Hispanic white women, 22% to Hispanic women and 8% to women of other races.**

• Forty-three percent of women obtaining abortions identify themselves as Protestant, and 27% as Catholic.[3]

• Women who have never married obtain two-thirds of all abortions.[3]

• About 60% of abortions are obtained by women who have one or more children.[7]

• The abortion rate among women living below the federal poverty level ($9,570 for a single woman with no children) is more than four times that of women above 300% of the poverty level (44 vs. 10 abortions per 1,000 women). This is partly because the rate of unintended pregnancies among poor women (below 100% of poverty) is nearly four times that of women above 200% of poverty* (112 vs. 29 per 1,000 women[3,1]

• The reasons women give for having an abortion underscore their understanding of the responsibilities of parenthood and family life. Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.[8]

So, if you took the time to read this, then maybe you can understand the point of the article, which is to find common ground. I am a "Liberal". I do not provide or like abortion. I would love to see every pregnancy end in a loved child. However, it is a fact of every type and level of society. Therefore, it makes more sense to spend energy on preventing it and helping women in poverty than in making it illegal. Common ground, that is what the article is talking about.

It's all about your ability to think and reason.
Does it really help people to indulge them? Or do people gain strength through helping themselves? Then, we must consider: do we want people to be strong, or just weaklings that the power mongers among us can manipulate to our own ends?
Is it about liberal and conservative, or is it just about creating weak subjects for the power hungry?
Once, America depended upon the self-reliant, rugged individualist; now, we demand the softest cushions for our overweight bottoms as we accept the handouts of the liberals.

I think Hannity, O'Reilly, and Limbaugh are just as useless and destructive as most of you do, but blaming them for this tragedy is as senseless as blaming inner city violence on gangsta rap.

The guy was nuts and in a lot of pain and he lashed out---the vehicle for his venom was a conservative minded hatred of liberals, but it could easily have been anything else.

And so if this guy was upset that his food stamps had been cut... If we're going to look at broad generalizations, who does he think supports the distribution of food stamps? Compassionate Conservates?

Those dittoheads who tell the public that they're whiners and that they should just pull themselves up by the bootstraps might be wise to remember this one follower of theirs who couldn't.

I am a former member of the Knoxville church where the shootings happened. Friends of mine were in the congregation Sunday morning. This is not an abstract issue here in Knoxville, and while I understand why liberals and conservatives want to make it fodder for the culture wars, that's not what I'm after this morning.

People need to watch the tone of their discourse (including some of the commenters here), because I have friends who are right now suffering trauma, and there's a really damaged shooter sitting in jail suffering a lifetime's worth of trauma, in part because people haven't monitored the tone of their discourse.

To those who say that nothing that is said on right-wing talk shows has anything to do with these events (although interestingly would probably make the argument that seeing two women kissing on TV would make children gay) I would like to quote from a hip-hop song from the early 90's by a band called 'Disposable Heroes of Hipoprisy' from their song 'Language of Violence';

"But dehumanizing the victim makes things simpler
It's like breathing with a respirator
It eases the conscience of even the most conscious
and calculating violator.
The power of words, don't take 'em for granted
When you hear the man ranting
Don't just read the lips
Be more sublime than this
Put everything in context"

Now, no one is arguing that Savage, O'Reilly or Coulter pulled the trigger but it is blindness to pretend that the kind of rhetoric heard on talk-radio day in and day out has NO effect. You can only tell people that liberals are subhuman traitors who don't deserve to live for so long before someone takes you at your word. It would appear that the perpetrator in this instance took Coulter et. al. at their word.

Cheers
A

Very sad incident by a crazy man with a gun. Period. Trash talk about whose ideology is more deviant isn't constructive, adds nothing of value to the discussion and won't bring the victims back.

Anyone - liberal or conservative - who adopts an intolerant and hateful worldview contributes to tragedies like this.

Does anyone expect anything different from an immoral, unprincipled neo-con? He better hope that whatever prison he get's sent to has a lot of shinheads for protection.

It goes beyond tragedy when crimes occur in sacred and safe spaces: churches, schools, courts, workplaces, etc.

As this discussion has evolved, I've noticed we could learn more about the principles and perspectives of the Unitarian Universalist faith;

Here are the churches core beliefs; the Seven Principles (read for yourself at http://www.uua.org/visitors/6798.shtml):

There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:

* The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
* Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
* Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
* A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
* The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
* The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
* Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

Unitarian Universalism (UU) draws from many sources:

* Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
* Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;
* Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
* Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
* Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit.
* Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

These principles and sources of faith are the backbone of our religious community.

The UU perspective (read for yourself at http://www.uua.org/visitors/uuperspectives/index.shtml) includes:
Unitarian Universalism is a centuries-old, free thinking liberal religion guided by shared values. At its core, this faith emphasizes the worth and value of every person and the interconnectedness of all things.

Many of the teachings of the bible and other religious beliefs informs and shapes being UU. Jesus is an inspiration; he was wise, kind, tolerant and an advocate for peace."

Reading, watching, or listening to right-wing hate show hosts should be grounds for a listing on the "No Fly" list. There's obviously a clear connection between being exposed to Savage et al and being likely to commit violent crimes.

And any immigrant who listens to this garbage should be deported, just like any immigrant to listens to radical jihadist imams. And deport all those who aid and abet these hate mongers.

Rupert Murdoch can go to head of the deportation line. Hasta la vista, Fox!

Well the headline says it all "add liberals to the enemy combatant list", ah no beating around the bush there, so liberals should be treated like enemy combatants? Quite frankly after reading all the gobble gook by these right wingers I have changed my position, I am now anti choice, I am now for mandatory abortions, especially for right wing religious wackos who are sick with their own self delusion, the ultimate elitism. We need mandatory abortions, heck I would even say retroactive abortions should be mandatory. The sooner we rid this nation of these delusional fairy tale believing fanatics the better. If you want to live in a religious state then go and move to the midle east.

A little off topic, but doesn't David Gushee need to take a sex ed class? "Gay and lesbian issues, like abortion..."???? Of course, lesbians can get pregnant, but I would assume that the vast majority of such instances are completely intentional. Of course, unless there's some medical breakthrough of which I'm not aware, gay men probably aren't having too many aboritions. So, as a proximal issue, I can't think of any group within society that is less affected by abortion. Does he think that gay people run a monopoly on the stork delivery industry or something like that? I just don't understand.

2003 [URL=http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2003_11_23_dneiwert_archive.html#106970848149574609]oped piece[/URL] from David Neiwert, a writer with conservative tendencies, that is concerned about conservative ideology and the way it is going

"the “preferable” way to address a liberal is with “a baseball bat.” -Ann Coulter

Coulter, Limbaugh, and Bill O'Reilly are pathological, narcissistic sociopaths"

Ah yes, Right Wing Chrisitans, Rush Limbaugh, etc., and the 2nd Amendment. WHAT a combination. Fortunately, "liberals" FAR outnumber vatives and we recently decided we are not going to take this anymore. Just you wait.

Ever notice liberals don't shoot up churches?

Didn't this guy shoot up this Church when they were having a children's play? Yeah. He's a real winner. Sorry your life sucks buddy. Sucks a whole lot more now. Unless this guy was a diagnosed clinical schizophrenic, which I doubt is the case, there is no possible excuse, justification, rationalization, etc...for his actions. Period. No debate. Culture wars or no culture wars. A kids play? Seriously?! If is was aimed at his wife, he should've gone after her.

Third way is not a progressive think tank. No members of the progressive caucus are on its board. It is centrist, regardless of their use of the word progressive.

Why is it that when on disagrees with anothers point of view this is referred to as hate?

God has made it clear abortion and homosexality is an abomination, to say it is ok is not love or tolerance it is lying to keep the peace. What is needed is for people to stand for truth and not be intimidated by those who think everyone hates them.

Great post about the liberals not shooting anyone and the gays not killing straights. In a similar vein, I'd like to point out that, while Keith Olbermann has an agenda, you don't hear him spouting lies. That cannot be said about Limbaugh, Hannity and Savage.

One less McCorpse voter in fall. It just goes to show that these people are fanatics and dangerous. There just as bad as the Islamo-fascist they purport to be fighting.

This guys a nut job no doubt, and while Unitarianism is pretty much a nut job "religion" IMHO, this does not negate nor justify this mans horrific actions.

This guy should fry for his actions and regardless of how crazy the Unitarian "church" is, they are human beings and did not deserve to be the target of this nuts rage.

With all that said, trying to portray this guys nuttiness and instability on pinheads like Savage, Limbaugh and Hannity is rediculous (and yes its shameful for the press accounts to try to spin the story this way). This guy could have just as easily been reading Marx, Lenin, Nitze, Chomsky, et al. and lashed out.

The killing, raping and murdering of the religious is a fundamental tenant of the leftist ideologies when they have come to power.

It is shameful that this entire incident will be framed within a political framework, instead of within the simple truth. An evil nut decided he had the right to kill innocent people. Hopefully he'll fry quickly.

Just a point on language usage:
"Gay and lesbian issues, like abortion, have also been tearing the nation apart,"

The essence of this sentence is not that abortion is a gay and lesbian issue. Rather,I believe the author is trying to express that gay and lesbian issues tear this nation apart like abortion is an issue that tears this nation apart.

If the Knoxville shooter were a Muslim then it would be called terrorism and more hate would be flowing. What do you expect when any crazy can get a gun? But as Gavin082 pointed out earlier, the shooters are almost always conservatives (and I would point out usually middle-aged white "Christian" working class men.
Was Tim McVeigh a terrorist? Sure. How about Limbaugh, Hannity, Savage, O'Reilly, Malkin, Coulter, etc.? Terrorists are people who purposely work to incite hatred, and its companion result, violence. I personally do not want to live in a world where everybody is like me - that would be too boring and there would be no great ethnic restaurants to eat in. Conservatism is a haven for deadenders who are afraid of all that they don't know or control. It will be a conservative who eventually ends the world in a nuclear flash - and Taliban and Al Qaeda are conservatives, just like Cheney and other nasties. All are terrorists who would stop humans from evolving to reach our full potential.

To Gavin082 --

I was thinking the exact same thing yesterday. None of the appalling violence of the "culture wars" ever seems to come from the left. It's always "right-thinking" people who shoot up medical clinics, bomb churches, and beat up gays.

I'd really like to know what conservatives have to say about this. But, be careful how you respond: If, in trying to distance yourselves and your politics, you call these people the lunatic fringe, does that mean that lunatics only come in conservative flavor?

The man's a terrorist plain and simple. In another place he'd be strapping on a bomb belt and walking into a shia mosque or shooting children at a kibbutz.
His goal, to put fear into a group of people, he takes his orders from the voices on the radio. He's not part of an organized network unlike those that picket Planned Parenthood and shoot doctors with sniper rifles, but a terrorist just the same.

It's really funny how intolerant liberals can be of conservative ideology. This shooter guy reflects the conservative movement about as much as Osama Bin Laden reflects Islam.

In response to Eric Bishop:

You're misreading Gushee's sentence. The comma after "issues" means he's comparing gay and lesbian issues to abortion, not putting abortion in the class of gay and lesbian issues. He's saying that ""Gay and lesbian issues have been tearing the nation apart in the same way that abortion has."

Please list all the books that were found in his home, maybe all the books he checked out or read in the library. You think it is newsworthy to inform us about three books he has-then give us the whole story and tell us all the books he has.
Please inform us if you or anyone at Newsweek have or have read any of those books; if not, why not?

didn't read all the comments, but we as a country have forgotten how to think critically...it's not being taught in our homes, nor is it being practiced by our so-called "pundits" and leaders.

Just because someone spouts something you don't agree with doesn't mean they're stupid or lack intelligence. What it really means is that you better protect this raving lunatic's right to say and believe what he/she wants because there will be a day when you'll say something that someone else doesn't agree with...will they preserve your right to say it?...talk about a litmus test of patriotism and belief in our system.

The only way to fight ANY kind of extremism is through education and critical thinking...

"Police said his ex-wife once was a member of that church, that he was having trouble finding a job, and that his food stamps had been cut."

Obviously this guy was not a conservative.... a conservative would NEVER take a handout like food stamps. Just a messed up and confussed SOB.

i'm sorry, killing someone is not just "disagreeing with their point of view"

last time i checked, the Christian god was not the only one that the population of planet earth believed in. so, if you believe that you are allowed to kill a liberal because they are gay and have abortion then i guess the Muslim extremists are equally allowed to come kill lots of Americans because of their views?

Religious extremists speak for nobody but themselves and they all betray the vast majority of decent folks belonging to each of their respective religions. Extremists, you are on your own and individually responsible for your actions. you dont deserve to claim mandate from any mainstream church or political party.

The fact that this guy was divorced, mad at his ex, mad at her 'church', mad about no food stamps anymore, obviously not keeping a job, blaming others for his problems....and his actions....all make me think he was probably actively alcoholic or drug addicted.

As a UU who grew up in the Midwest, I have to ask if Coulter, Hannity, et al. are any different from the bile spread by neo-Nazis while families were losing their farms in the 80s: that the Jews and their banker lackeys were responsible.

I can't say there's much difference in either the content or this outcome.

RE: John J: "No. Sorry. We're all equally not responsible for creating an angry culture. To put it succinctly there's simply no equivalent on the left to the vitriol of the right. I'm sick of those in the media who try to display their "professionalism" by taking the easy way out and inevitably saying both sides are to blame. Sometimes in life - and politics - there really are perpetrators and victims."

Please tell me you are joking. One only has to look at the comment sections on websites such as Huffington Post or Daily Kos to see that those on the far left are patently filled with anger, hate, and a profound rage against those who disagree with them. Chalk this episode up to a man who obviously went over the deep end; don't make it an simplistic argument against those on the right.

And I do agree with you regarding the fact that there are perpetrators and victims: the victims are the most vulnerable members of society, i.e., those who are aborted. The perpetrators are those who kill these victims through some misguided belief in "women's rights."

The guy was on food stamps, he couldn't have been too conservative.

Guns don't kill people, right wingers do.

Anon says, "Why is it that when on disagrees with anothers point of view this is referred to as hate?" What the hell? This incident isn't about somebody who "disagrees with anothers point of view." It's about a person who hated the "liberal movement" (whatever that is) and gay people enough to kill people who he believed voted Democrats into office. If that ain't hate, nothing is. As a result, two people are dead and many others are critically injured and traumatized.

And then MARKF states, "Is the message of this man's attack really, "Christians deserve to die?" Again, what the hell? Unitarians don't claim to be Christian (although many of them are), so NO, MarkF, the message is "I hate gay people and people who hang around with them." Don't try to turn this horrid tragedy into a "Christians are so persecuted" lie.

To Indulge and deteriorate:

Some o' them power mongers cast themselves as conservatives, admonishing and manipulating those who are impressionable and of little means to be strong and independent, while doing all the favors they can get away with for the rich and powerful.

THAT'S the really sick aspect of the so-called 'culture wars.'

You can't tell the good guys from the bad by the color of their hats. Follow the money trail.

The title of the piece says ¨add liberals to the list of enemy combatants in the culture war¨

Innocent liberals were the victims here, murdered and wounded by an obviously deranged person.

In no way were the liberals enemy combatants.

Perhaps the Washington Post writers, spin doctors and editors should be a little less obvious in letting their twisted views show.

Below is the mission statement from TVUUC.

So what of this does ANONYMOUS consider nutjob? Is it that they don't promote the Christ-head? Or that they believe in searching for truth and embodying tolerance? If I actually believed in a "god" or chose to join a religion this might be the one.

http://www.tvuuc.org/believe.html

What do
Unitarian Universalists believe?
WE BELIEVE in the freedom of religious expression. All individuals should be encouraged to develop their own personal theologies, and to present openly their religious opinions without fear of censure or reprisal.

WE BELIEVE in the tolerance of religious ideas. All religions, in every age and culture, possess not only intrinsic merit, but also potential value for those who have learned the art of listening.

WE BELIEVE in the authority of reason and conscience. The ultimate arbiter in religion is not a church, nor a document, nor an official, but the personal choice and decision of the individual.

WE BELIEVE in the never-ending search for Truth. If the mind and heart are truly free and open, the revelations that appear to the human spirit are infinitely numerous, eternally fruitful, and wondrously exciting.

WE BELIEVE in the unity of experience. There is no fundamental conflict between faith and knowledge, religion and the world, the sacred and the secular, since they all have their source in the same reality.

WE BELIEVE in the worth and dignity of each human being. All people on earth have an equal claim to life, liberty, and justice-and no idea, ideal, or philosophy is superior to a single human life.

WE BELIEVE in the ethical application of religion. Good works are the natural product of a good faith, the evidence of an inner grace that finds completion in social and community involvement.

We should include yellow-journalistic columnists to the list of enemy combatants. Way to straw-man a fringe wacko as a poster child for your skewed paradigm of the Right. Nothing like a little journalism from the 1800's to start my day.

We all have the right to disagree, however no one has the right to take the law into their own hands.

Answer for Gavin82's post "Why is it that we NEVER hear about atheists bombing mega churches? When was the last time a bunch of marauding gay people beat up somebody because they were straight? Liberals aren't shooting people over their politics.

I'm not trying to be an @ss here, I really wonder why it is that all of the political violence in the United States is coming from one direction."

Answer: One word: Columbine.

It is not the fact that he liked Fox news. I also watch Fox news. I am not about to go shoot somebody because they are living a life I wouldn't want for myself or children. He was insane, like anyone that kills other people for no logical reason.

I would like to reiterate an observation from others here - notice that liberals don't go around shooting conservatives. Liberals don't shoot abortion doctors, or shoot up children in a church, or blow up federal buildings in Oklahoma, or beat up a poor gay guy and tie him to a fence and leave him to die in Wyoming.

Are you right-wing Republicans happy? Are all you holier-than-thou conservative Christians happy? You advocate hatred against your fellow citizens and this is what happens. GOOD JOB, @SSHOLES.

And another thing: Who here is reminded of the movie "The Fisher King"?

As I recall, the shock jock in that flick, whose words cause a similar incident, loses his job and takes the lumps he so richly deserves.

My guess is that Messrs. Savage and Hannity will not.

BT said:
"The fact that this guy was divorced, mad at his ex, mad at her 'church', mad about no food stamps anymore, obviously not keeping a job, blaming others for his problems....and his actions....all make me think he was probably actively alcoholic or drug addicted."

An active alcoholic or substance abuser might very well be "guilty" of the faults BT noted. However, addiction doesn't translate into frenzied, psychotic multiple murder. Yes, addicts can commit acts of violence, but generally it's in the service of getting them more of their drug of choice. Addicts are, frankly, too lacking in energy and ambition to attempt anything that won't result in their next fix.

This guy had plenty of "issues". Blaming "talk radio" is ridiculous. While Liberals may think their views are "mainstream and a majority" the fact is they aren't. Given the state of everything shoved down our throats via the "nightly news" could push "some" people "over the edge". And obviously, this guy had his fair share of "issues". Factor in he'd been trying to find a job for two years, loss of his food stamps, and reported depression and you have this tragedy. But, you Liberals can continue to claim the right-wingers as "intolerant". I can assure you that Liberals are just as "intolerant" of anyone that doesn't share the "liberal" mindset with evidence listed in these posts.

Well, having read all the posts to this article thus far I invite all you compassionate liberals to go back and reread them to see where the real intolerance and hate is. No hate on the left? You of liberal persuasion make the case against yourselves. Your hate and intolerance is in full view right here. Ever read Daily Kos blog? You ignorant hypocrites!

How ironic that part of what precipitated the attack was that the shooter was upset about his food stamps being cut. I don't recall the "conservatives" fighting for any social programs. The conservatives are too busy pandering to big business and the corporate giants to care about a 58 year old out of work truck driver. They disguise their real agenda by throwing words like "homosexual" and "abortion" out to the uninformed masses who moo on up to the polls to cast their votes for what they have been spoon fed by the right wing under the guise of morality.

The writer claims the victims of this tragedy as martyrs of his own narcissistic culture "war." They are the victims of a sick person, nothing more.

Alos, real clever - and classy - appropriating a line from a comedy film to describe murder.

Hey, I'd just like to point out that this "Unitarian Universalism" is about as far from Christianity as Islam. Just in case some of you didn't catch that.

Does this now mean that the victim's families can sue Publishers and Bill O'Reilly in order to institute censorship on books now that they drove this man to commit this atrocity? Looks like conservative right wing pigeons coming home to roost.. caw.. caw...

"Unitarians don't claim to be Christian (although many of them are)"

Not quite accurate. Some still are, but, given the tenet of UU belief that doesn't accept either the divinity of Christ or the tripartite Godhead, it's pretty difficult to make a case that UU is a Christian denomination.

It simply isn't.

It HAD to happen. Someone was sure to come along and extrapolate from one crazy murderer, and ascribe and attribute his actions to the conservative movement. A very democratic, liberal sentiment. Very open-minded as a liberal should be. Blame the actions of a murder as on a group of people expressing their philosophy. Smear them when you can't or don't want to engage them in actual debate. It's ugly, and it seems to work. Good job.

I spend a considerable amount of time reading the Post's comment boards. I have seen BOTH conservatives and liberals say that their counterparts should be killed.

It appears to be true that in practice conservatives seem to periodically take up the gun more in the US for political reasons. Shootings of abortion doctors come to mind. The gun culture rather than politics and morality may have something to do with this anecdotal observation. Of course, in the 60's many liberal groups resorted to bombings and bank robberies where there was loss of life. After this case, perhaps the right leaning talking heads will lay off of Obama for his comment about blue collar people who are suffering in economic hard times resorting to "religion and guns."

More importantly, I point out that in this church bystanders tackled the shooter. One man apparently sacrificed himself to save others; as Jesus would have done. Recently, a shooting at a conservative evangelical church in Colorado led to a congregant killing the perpetrator with her weapon--which I believe is wrong. Could it be that these likely pro-choice unitarians are more "pro life" than those who say they are? Are they braver? Do they have more confidence that there is a heaven? Which group has the stronger faith?

Regardless, there was an interesting Post article about a week or so ago that questioned why so many Americans stand by and don't help out during an emergencey (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/15/AR2008071503150.html). Have our values and morals eroded? The article said that experts believe that when one person leads and helps people in trouble, more are prone to jump in and do the right thing.

This case proves that point (see today's AP story "Police: Man Shot Churchgoers Over Liberal Views"--http://my.earthlink.net/article/nat?guid=20080728/488e95c0_3ca6_1552620080729-1608555680).

I am personally offented at compairing interracial couples to gays. There is nothing wrong with a black man marrying a white women, or Asian women marrying a Spanish man. There is something morally wrong with two men or two women together as a couple. They like to use the race card to promote this kind of perversion.

Now, that being said, I do not promote standing in the way of Sinners, let them have their parade, or whatever they want to do, Just keep it away from me.

What this man did was very wrong, the Love of Jesus is what will bring men to salvation. He obviously was not Christian, so the devil got the best of him. Satan is out to kill and destroy all men who are not born-again with the Spirit that Raised Jesus from the dead. The Holy Spirit.

As a Christian I feel it is very wrong to go and hurt anyone, no matter even if they hold an anti-Christian believe. How can the love of Jesus operate if we show hate? In the case of saying Homosexuality is wrong, that is actually love when you think of it in terms of eternity. I am not out to bash homosexuals in particular, however the article brought the subject up. I will use what God gave me for good, and you do what you have to do... God Bless U all.

So now it's out in the open---Conservatives are the only ones who kill! All the Founding Fathers were Conservatives who wanted to force people into a mindset. I can't believe what I'm hearing.

This murderer was a very sick man. Sick people come in every stripe. Why are we so quick to blame Hannity, or Savage, or O'reilly? What if he'd been reading Obama's book "Audacity of Hope"?

Has anybody been listening to Keith Olbermann lately (or for the last 2 years)? Anyone listened to the vitriol of (Now deposed) Bernie Ward on SF radio? Anyone read Al Franken's works? The knife swings both ways.

The main reason talk-radio is dominated by Conservative thinkers is because they are more interesting to listen to than Liberal thinkers. I know--I listen to BOTH all the time. I'm a middle-of-the-roader who wants different points of view.

Liberal ideas, carried to extremes by SICK people, can be just as destructive in those sick hands. The "anything goes" mindset of most of the popular media can be destructive to good morality and good behavior. Who's to say that the rampant destructive abuse of drugs isn't the result, partly, of liberal thinking?

So enough of this "blame game" against Conservative Talk. There's enough blame to go around if we all look in the mirror.

Yes, what happened at the TVUU was a "whole lot of ugly". The fellowship will overcome this act with the power of love.

Some seek others to blame for their lot in life and there are those in the MSM who fan the flames, pointing fingers and telling their audience who to hate. The anti-choice crew who blame "liberals" are the same ones who deny teens the education to help them prevent pregnancy. And how is it possible to be "pro-life" yet pro-war and pro-death penalty?

To put Olbermann and Savage in the same category is absurd. Olbermann does elevate ones knowledge, while Savage spews irrational venom. Fact check for yourself, don't rely on any side's pundit.

Why do some seek to impose their views on others as the "only" way to think? Perhaps they only feel confident if everyone agrees with them. It's arrogant. Why do some seek to deny others the rights they themselves enjoy...such as the anti-inter-racial marriage crowd that has morphed into the anti-gay marriage faction. No one's marriage is in any way threatened by either. Extending civil rights and equal protection under the law to all citizens would seem to be the "American way".

Yes, folks, please do read more about Unitarian Universalism. Opening minds and hearts is a good thing.

What church did the shooter attend ?

"Why is it that there are never any terrorist attacks by Liberals?"

Because liberals are bred to be victims.

David Dennis, i am from ea TN also, and yr correct. aint a better place to find evil, self-righteous hatred in this country than Powell, TN, fr instance. my brother was murdered for stealin a beer from a meth dealer a few years back; the code of the hills is protecting those guys as it always will. i miss home, but am afraid to raise my kids there. but there is evil everywhere. i praise our living God that He is on the throne and not the 'god' that haters worship!

"God has made it clear abortion and homosexality is an abomination, to say it is ok is not love or tolerance it is lying to keep the peace. What is needed is for people to stand for truth and not be intimidated by those who think everyone hates them."

You would presume to dictate to the rest of us that this is "truth"? I certainly believe that you THINK it is, but I believe otherwise. I DON'T hate you, but I couldn't disagree with you more strongly...

To the Anonymous guy/gal that posted this: "The killing, raping and murdering of the religious is a fundamental tenant of the leftist ideologies when they have come to power."

Just to set the record straight: More people have been killed in the name of one religion or another than were ever killed because of race, adultery, material disputes, thefts, drunken fits of rage, and any other non-religious reasons COMBINED.

Before you dispute this claim I am making, start tallying the numbers of dead resultant from the Crusades, Arab/Israeli wars, the American Revolution, and the Middle Eastern Jihad that has been going on for the last thousand years or so. Those are just a drop in the bucket of the number of dead due to religious beliefs. The people reported as dead in the article you posted this comment to were also killed in the name of religion. It was no leftist that killed these people. He was a conservative rightie.

1FLWB2:

You are Just wrong.

Liberals do not physically attack churches, They're too busy attacking police, military personnel, government buildings.

Let's be consistent, though. If it's ok to demonize conservatism because of the actions of one demented, depressed, unemployed individual on food stamps, then is it ok to demonize Islam because of actions of hundreds or even thousands of Muslims, in the name of Islam?

I think what Gushee meant by, "gay and lesbian issues, like abortion..." could also be stated, "abortion, like gay and lesbian issues..."

the writer was trying to make a point about culturally charged issues.

i am a uu. i was raised uu. when i heard of the shootings it hit me in the core of my being. church is sanctuary, should be, for anyone of any faith. the man who did this has problems, obviously. no one person can cause another to do harm unless there is already a problem in place. please, if we can get away from blaming labels and use this tragedy to have a real conversation about the issues which lead to it, maybe we can prevent future occurences.

it's time to heal, not rub salt in wounds, not pick at others which have been on the mend. how can we prevent this type of thing from happening again? we can at least notice the troubled in our own lives and reach out to help them.

DM says "Please tell me you are joking. One only has to look at the comment sections on websites such as Huffington Post or Daily Kos to see that those on the far left are patently filled with anger, hate, and a profound rage against those who disagree with them. Chalk this episode up to a man who obviously went over the deep end; don't make it an simplistic argument against those on the right."

Yes, but conservatives hatred is delivered directly into our via television. Posing as real news, Fox News Channel delivers hatred and distorted information. It's no surprise that books by O'Reilly and Hannity were in this guy's home. A few blogs simply don't compare.

GAVIN082-- You never hear about liberals doing this type of thing because it goes against the basic philosophy of liberalism of live and let live. It would never occur to a true liberal to inforce his or her way of life on someone else. If you look the words liberal and conservative up in the dictionary you find

Conservative; Disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions,ect., or to restore traditional ones, AND TO LIMIT CHANGE. one opposed to polital change.

Liberal; Favorable to progress or reform. Favorable to, or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom, as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection. Of or pertaining to representational forms of government, rather than aristocracies and manarchies. Open to new ideas.

Conservatives are trapped by their basic philosophy of, doesn't like change. The only thing permenant in life is change, so a lot of conservatives hate life and they blame it on liberals because in general, liberals find it much easier to deal with the rapid changes in life. Conservatives have the stupid idea that the changes in life are caused by liberals, and that if they could just get rid of the liberals, they could get rid of the change, and life would stop in that one little place where they were happy and things were going well. Bottom line is that, for the most part, they are just too stupid to find their way out. They just can't face the fact that they have been wrong their whole lives.

Frankly, I'm surprised it took this long for a shooting like this to happen. With all the hateful right-wing rhetoric out there it was inevitable.

"Liberals slaughter babies in the womb every day. How could they not be in the culture wars?"
************************************
That is a perfect example of the divisive propaganda that churns out of the right wing hate machine 24/7. If you put enough propaganda out there, it will get in the hands of crazy people who act on it like this guy did.

lee, I lived in 'Dago for decades. a great place for adherants to rightwing nutjobs, so dont go middle on us. the stats dont lie; conservatives feed the wackos. like the other poster said, libs are bred to b victums.
for now...

Congratulations to everyone who has posted on this worthless message board for completely missing or intentionally ignoring the point the author was trying to make. The rank crap on this and other message boards, on this site in particular, are part and parcel of what the author was talking about. Intolerance indeed. By all means though, continue to post your own versions of self-righteous "tolerant" vitriol, I'm sure you can go about your day convinced about your moral superiority to everyone around you and the enormous value you contributed to today's discussion.

Quick comment for Suznaz...

how is it possible to be pro-life, yet also pro-war and pro-death penalty?

Easy. Personal responsibility.

Unborn children, "fetuses" if you will, have done nothing wrong, nothing to deserve death. Their mothers conceived them. The mothers have already exercised the "right to choose" by creating the children.

Death penalty - I think it's safe to say that someone who rapes and murders has done something terribly, terribly wrong and deserves the harshest punishment available.

War - a necessary evil to protect human rights. You notice that the men we have in Iraq are all volunteers. Nobody was forced to sign up to be in the military. Yes, people die that are innocent, and it's a horrible, horrible thing - but there were even more innocent people dying before we went over there.

Did that help? I'm not great at debate, but this is where I, and most of the people I know, stand.

My sister belongs to one of the far-right conservative churches, and she hates me because I am gay. I thought Christains were supposed to love, and not hate.

Quick comment for Suznaz...

how is it possible to be pro-life, yet also pro-war and pro-death penalty?

Easy. Personal responsibility.

Unborn children, "fetuses" if you will, have done nothing wrong, nothing to deserve death. Their mothers conceived them. The mothers have already exercised the "right to choose" by creating the children.

Death penalty - I think it's safe to say that someone who rapes and murders has done something terribly, terribly wrong and deserves the harshest punishment available.

War - a necessary evil to protect human rights. You notice that the men we have in Iraq are all volunteers. Nobody was forced to sign up to be in the military. Yes, people die that are innocent, and it's a horrible, horrible thing - but there were even more innocent people dying before we went over there.

Did that help? I'm not great at debate, but this is where I, and most of the people I know, stand.

Quoting David Dennis:

* * * * *

"I was born in Knoxville, the "Volunteer State". These non-Christian Churches (i.e. universal, unitarian) supporting liberal agenda have chosen the wrong state, or region of the state, perhaps Memphis would have been a better positioning for such a movement.

These universalists are non-Christians in the fundamentalists view, and there are many in the hills of that area who will understand what was done by the criminal shootist and not entirely disagree; something needs to be done, perhaps this went too fair, but a certain part of the salt of the earth [God's People] will see this as a start."

* * * * *

PERHAPS? Perhaps this went to far? My god, man, he went into a church and shot five people! He KILLED TWO. Perhaps he went to far?

Need I remind you that this is a free country. If Unitarians want to assemble, they have the absolute, constitutionally guaranteed right to do so. The government is also bound to protect their ability to do so. If you don't like that you fundamentally misunderstand the nature of our country and our government.

To Lee from San Diego:

You say: "Has anybody been listening to Keith Olbermann lately (or for the last 2 years)? Anyone listened to the vitriol of (Now deposed) Bernie Ward on SF radio? Anyone read Al Franken's works? The knife swings both ways."

You actually undercut your whole argument here. You are citing liberals who use the power of language -- not physical violence -- to wage their battles. Where are the names of liberals who have shot, bombed, maimed, burned, knifed, or otherwise tortured their conservative counterparts?

So you see, the knife doesn't actually "swing both ways." Rather, it seems always to be in the hand of the right-wing radical.

FLS - your sister is very un-Christian if she hates you. As Christians, we "love the sinner and hate the sin" - have you heard that before? There is a huge difference between hating you, and hating a choice that you have made but hoping that through love, we can convince you to change your mind.

Nobody ever changed someone's mind by hating them or telling them they're stupid. A lot of people on this board could learn something from that.

(sorry about the double post earlier)

Look on the bright side - the killer was able to take full advantage of his Second Amendment right to own a gun, a right just recently expanded by the SCOTUS.

I'll bet the SCOTUS, Hannity and the rest will be popping the champagne tonight!

Jesus was and is a liberal.

And the most hateful, rediculous, offensive, mean spirited, naive and downright stupid post of the day belongs toooooo--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->Posted on July 29, 2008 11:26

Butterfly3:
I would like to reiterate an observation from others here - notice that liberals don't go around shooting conservatives. Liberals don't shoot abortion doctors, or shoot up children in a church, or blow up federal buildings in Oklahoma, or beat up a poor gay guy and tie him to a fence and leave him to die in Wyoming.

Are you right-wing Republicans happy? Are all you holier-than-thou conservative Christians happy? You advocate hatred against your fellow citizens and this is what happens. GOOD JOB, @SSHOLES

Congrats on being the winner!

Yes, a gun ban definitely would have stopped this guy, it worked really well in DC.
I believe he was using an exotic, gang related weapon known as a SHOTGUN.

Gavin82's post "Why is it that we NEVER hear about atheists bombing mega churches?

-------------------------

We do. It's called Communist China. Don't believe me? Just ask the Dalai Lama, members of the Falun Gung movement, and any other practioner of a religion in China.

Damn, when I disowned my gun/bush/jesus lovin' biological family in December 2000, I should have at least demanded one of their shotguns when I signed away an inheritance. One of them was actually mine.

Never know when I'm going to need to defend myself from 'them'.

To Bulldog,

Thanks for pointing out the Unitarian belief site. It can help people understand the direction this church is evolving as it has some very interesting principles. Although one cannot server to masters equally.

The bible is clear that people are God’s handy work. In the zealot minds of the far right and far left, books written by “extremist” can start a riot in their mind that compels them to take writings out of context and the deliver a blow to humanity by reacting negatively to innocent people. Jesus, while tolerant to the innocent, was very vocal to those that by their very actions made them stand out as if superior. Jesus was not tolerant of the lifestyle, just tolerant of people who are in fallen state. Bible teaches to server and to love and even teaches “Feed you enemy” (Ro 12:20) which indicates there is to be some adversity.

Do not mistake God’s grace and mercy for being a passive state though. God has shown that when man turns away from Him, that is man’s choice, God will give them over to a depraved mind (Ro 1:1-32). Even when they use His name as a reason for their actions, He provides grace and without it we’d all be dead.

Does this mean we must show tolerance to those who rampage against his fellow man? He certainly deserves punishment but we are called to love even more so when it hurts the most. Otherwise we ourselves can develop wrong, depraved thinking. We may never know why wrongs things happen to the innocent other than depraved mines live amongst us. No amount of preparations can determine when and where crimes like this will happen again. As we place ourselves, individually, in the place of taking care of each other better then we can possible eliminate some the sorrow that be falls us.

FOX actually stands for:

Fomenting
Overt
Xenophobia

If you need to use your dictionary please do so.

"Yes, people die that are innocent, and it's a horrible, horrible thing - but there were even more innocent people dying before we went over there."

Yeah, Right. What planet do you live on?

Anonymous Said:

* * * * *

"Gavin82's post "Why is it that we NEVER hear about atheists bombing mega churches?

-------------------------

We do. It's called Communist China. Don't believe me? Just ask the Dalai Lama, members of the Falun Gung movement, and any other practioner of a religion in China."

* * * * *

Clearly, we're talking about American politics here. Nice dodge, though.

To ANOTHER UU: I didn't say that the UU is a Christian denomination. I said that some UUs (individual members) are Christian. Indeed in one of our local UU churches, a group of members gather regularly for Christian worship. You're right - they don't believe in the divinity of Jesus/Christ and all the "required" Christian dogma, but they still call themselves UU Christians.

Eric Bishop, just as a clarification, if you read the Guest Column by Gushee and Laser, you'll see that the they mean to say, "Gay and Lesbian issues" as well as "abortion". It's a little confusing when quoted out of context in the above column.

This guy's flames were fanned by Fox News pundits Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity. The search warrant inventory is on the web at the WBIR Knoxville website. The third book in the house was Michael Savages "Liberalism is a mental disorder".

Fox has enabled these nutjobs for far too long.

Complain at yourcomments@foxnews.com

When has a crazed Liberal ever killed anyone for being a conservative? And please spare me the convoluted pro-life justifications for this.

The apologists for the three "commentators" mentioned (O'Reilly, Savage, Hannity) might consider the role they play in legitimizing violence. The commentatore don't seem to disagree with "liberal views" so much as they seem to "hate" them. For the sake of the commentators' marketability and desire to dominate professionally (by virtue of their "ratings") they have abandoned chosen to contribute to the legitimization of hate/violence. Sad and destructive. No good can come from it.

jimie

For those of you that dont think Liberals are "shooting up" conservatives, you havent seen the "green" liberals lieing in wait to beat anyone that tries to pass one of their "bike" blockades in Portland, or Elf, HSUS members blowing up buildings, without regaurd who is in them. Tree huggers planing booby traps on mnt trails because they are protecting animals from hunters. Dont kid yourself this is every day life in the Pacifc NW, but you wont see it in a national paper or news article because they agree with the cause.

There is no such thing as a life without a birth,
so- the abortion issue is just a red herring , a good example of the conservative resistance to anything new,

they brought us the war in vietnam, the endless and needless war in iraq, millions of human beings are dead, dying, starving or diplaced because on the
conservative agen, the immoral conservative agenda

lets all pray that the christians become human beings

Let us all get down on our kneels and pray to all that is holy and just, that no one at "The Washington Post" or "Newsweek" has read those books. Who knows what evil will happen if they did?

Madmen come in all shapes, sizes and colors and represent many political beliefs. To attempt to make a case that this madman's murder of "liberals" is anything more than madness, is itself madness. The last thing David Waters would write about, I strongly suspect, is the close connection between murder, individual and mass murder, by people who call themselves muslims- worldwide. He is typial of the myopia of those who call themselves "liberals."

"- but there were even more innocent people dying before we went over there."

Yeah right, and more Americans died before we went in too.

What planet do you live on!?

JD, you've got a lot to learn about Jesus. He was the RADICAL of his time - he bothered to treat women with respect, he deigned to talk to people of different religions (Samaritans), he ate with sinners and the marginalized, he talked to people he shouldn't have talked to, he challenged the religious/political authorities, and he spoke truths that the establishment didn't want to hear. You need to learn some more about this Jesus if you're going to go around talking about him.

proudbutscaredliberal - if your "Christian" friends don't believe in the divinity of Christ, I think that by definition they are not Christians.

As a Christian, I'm pretty sure that the center of our faith is the creed, in which we say (one of many versions, all essentially saying the same thing) "I believe in God the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth... and in Jesus Christ, His only Son our Lord... and in the Holy Spirit".

This fundamental beliefs of Christianity are that God created us, gave His Son to die for us, and his Holy Spirit is within us. This isn't "required dogma blah blah blah", this is what defines Christian. Your friends who do not acknowledge Jesus as the Son of God are no more Christian than Jews are Christian.

To ME:

"You notice that the men we have in Iraq are all volunteers."

Yes, and how about the women?

You smug, right-wing idealogues just have to be the heroes, don't you?

I am lovin' the "morally wrong" peanut gallery here. The only thing that EVER said it was "morally wrong" was a religious teaching, and a misinterpreted one at that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviticus_18 . And while I have your attention, I"ll shoot down the "unnatural" argument too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals

-Peter, very straight and very educated, unlike a lot of you

As a former conservative who can no longer identify with the monstrosity that is the modern Republican party, I often bemoan the decline of the conservative movement. Outside of Will, Gergen, Hunter, Brooks, and a few others, there is little to no intelligence or reason left in the conservative movement.

Reasonable people don't demonize individuals who belong to a particular sector of society. There are silly elements on the left and the right, but the modern Republican party attracts a disproportionate share of the intellectually challenged. There is a shared burden, but the responsibility is not equally distributed to the left and the right. Hannity and Limbaugh don't advocate violence in their cause, but as several people have pointed out, they degrade the quality of debate. Coulter is an irresponsible loon. Media outlets make money by giving these people a voice to foment hatred and distrust. O'Reilly tries, but his viewership demands a lunge to the right.

"they brought us the war in vietnam"

Actually Kennedy started it, Johson escalated it, and Nixon stopped it.

Get your facts straight.

If this happened in Iraq, one group of people would be called Sunni, and they other Shi'ite. It would be labeled a terrorist act. Even in Iraq or Israel...or really anywhere in the world, people walk into innocent environments and cause destruction by use of guns or bombs. I've never heard a single news report labeling these individuals as mentally impaired. Instead, they are labeled terrorists.
In the US we have this same battle getting ready to brew between conservatives and liberals. Ironic that conservatives who support the "war on terror" seem to be the first ready to commit to violence on these message boards. They claim to be fighting for freedom in one world, while trying to restrict it within their own. What this man did was an act of terror and he is simply a terrorist, nothing else.

This man is about as "conservative" as GW Bush.

That is, not at all.

He is just another typical American liberal. The country is almost entirely populated with liberals, all wanting to kill one another.

The difference in the perpetration of violence is ONLY in the methods. Liberals are collectivists so of course they don't engage in individualist acts of rage. Liberals use government or guerilla organizations to express their rage, it make themselves feel better when they kill with their peers.

A quick survey of governments (Stalin, Mao, Castro) or of insurgent opposition groups across the world (Weather Underground, FMLA, etc.) reveals liberals just as soaked in blood as any other persuasion.

The insults, counter-insults, diatribes and rants that typify many of the responses to this article epitomize the mindlessness and moral bankruptcy of the left and right.

Given the ugliness of many of the remarks, it is little wonder that the unhinged find ample inspiration to commit atrocious acts.

The morally and ethically bankrupt inhabit both ends of the political spectrum, seeming opposites firmly united by the their mutual hatred of those with whom they disagree. Their distorted view of the world is on ample display here, in response to this column. Those of you who think you are farthest apart in the "culture wars" are in fact mirrors of each other - the enemies of reason.

me:

You need to brush up on your history of the christian movement. The "divinity" of christ didn't come until much later when christ was elefvate to a god-head.

Early christians believed him to be a prophet much as moses.

real christians don't shoot people

Why is it so hard for some of you to put aside personal politics and religion and actually think for one minute about this tragedy and what we might learn from it? The belief in the dignity of every human life stressed in this article, the Unitarian Universalist Church, and the Bible is incredible and powerful! Maybe as a society we should stress "love thy neighbor" in our daily lives, and in schools, churches, and other institutions. It's a lot easier to think about the negative aspects of our society, but I know this tragedy has inspired and challenged me to remember the good in the world and not fight hate with hate.

tuxedocat - sorry, just laughing a little at your post. Trying to be PC are we? Last I heard, when one is referring to a group of people of mixed gender, "men" is an appropriate term. Just as, when referring to a third person whose gender is unknown, "he" is the correct term. I'm sorry if you misunderstood.

I happen to be female, if it makes a difference.

You say "So now we can add liberals to the list of enemy combatants in America's culture war."

"So now...??" As opposed to, when?

American citizens who work towards a human-centric government of peace, prosperity, and fundamental American values are branded as everything from enemies, traitors, terrorist-enablers, Commies, Muslims, homos, appeasers, femi-nazis, baby-killers, vermin, scum, and worse --- a chorus led by a chattering class right wing talk radio propagandists fed talking points straight from the White House, who use hatred and division to divert attention from their own criminal activities.

There were a few dark years there when this intimidation was working -- a post 9/11 knee-jerk fascism had overtaken the land. Fortunately in some respects (and perhaps its sole redeeming quality) the sheer egregiousness of the Bush administration has awakened the electorate. Eight of ten Americans now think we're on the wrong track. It would seem that more than a few folks formerly bamboozled by talk radio's inanity have come to reevaluate their conclusions based on their personal experiences. The answer to the question, "Who are you going to believe, Rush or your own two lying eyes?" is increasingly "the eyes have it," and declining numbers for right wing talk validate this.

So in that respect, fear and hatred seem to be in retreat along with the rest of the right wing agenda. Excepting a few outrageous moments widely ridiculed by the media (unlike Swift Boaters of yore who were given credibility by them), the politics of personal destruction seems to be restraining itself.

Occasionally a few sneak through, like CNN's right wing toady Campbell Brown ridiculing hearings intended to reinstate the Constitution of the United States of America. But what's changed since our post 9/11 fascist phase is that CNN will be set straight on that matter by outraged viewers who before would have capitulated.

But even under the happy circumstance of an Obama presidency, the darkness will not have yet completely lifted. Look for the concentration of hate speech to intensify as these beer-muscled fringe elements wake up hung over from their power grab to find out that the only person they have to blame for being an abject failure in life is themselves.

I am incredibly surprised at how little discussion these comments entail, and how quick each side is to use this incident for their own political gains (ie. espousing their political doctrine). Makes me reflect on the fact that Jefferson felt that factions would destroy America, and they seem to be doing just that.

The truth of the matter is that both sides (conservative and liberal) have the same problem, they do not want to let people make choices that they disagree with. (Liberals may think they are all for choices, but the reaction to the D.C. Gun ban shows otherwise). Life is about responsibility and holding individuals accountable for their actions. This poor man made some very bad choices because he felt powerless. That is the real trajedy. America is supposed to be empowering, we have the ability to choose our "rulers" [insert conspiracy theory and disillusioned flaming here] compared to most everywhere else in the world (Africa, Eastern Europe) to travel as we will. The real tragedy is why this man felt so out of control of his own life that he had to try and regain a shadow of that control through violence.

Bob Jones University is nearby in SC, Greenville in fact. Let me simply say that Bob Jones looks main stream compared to the Armenian Christians in the East.

http://www.tvuuc.org/believe.html will show you what the issue is in regards to our enemies of the Islamic Faith, you are weak and far from Christian.

I am embarrassed that the quality of people in my beloved home state have become non-Christians and don't know it, or do you?

ean says "Obviously this guy was not a conservative.... a conservative would NEVER take a handout like food stamps. Just a messed up and confussed SOB."

So conservatives don't take Social Security either, right?

The world has always had its Bad Guys.

Hitler killed six million Jews, a long time ago. Today, Ahmadinijad has publicly stated that he wants to wipe them all out. Where is the uproar?

Stalin killed twenty million people of his own nation, a long time ago. Today the USA has killed fifty million of its own, under the guise of "the right" of a woman to "choose" to kill her baby.

This guy killed two people in this "church" whose "Christian" members number only 13.1%, the rest being Atheists, Pagans, Hindus, Buddhists, devil worshippers and assorted heathens; this "church" whose preachers are Atheists and Humanists, and whose members are all Liberals. This is where the uproar is.

How many hundreds of American babies are being murdered in the womb today, or even worse, on their way out of the womb? Everyone who supports, promotes, encourages or profits by abortion is far worse than the guy who only killed two.

The ironic part is, if Mr. Adkisson had trouble with food stamps, Unitarians probably would have helped him...without the perceived threat of being seduced by a man while receiving that help.

In prison...well...at least you get three meals a day.

1FLWB2 - I fail to see how your comment is relevant.

Thou shalt not kill.

Seems pretty clear to me. And yet our president, who is the leader of this conservative christian nation, and Fox news who supports everything he says and does in our name, is what is reflected by this shooters actions in a church. We voted for this when we decided to respond to 9/11 with hate and war and started to crusade against those who are not conservative and christian. This crusade was started by Ronald Reagan against the liberals in what is called the culture war.

The conservative attacks on "liberals" is the definition of the culture wars, as war is their answer to everything. The neo-cons have given us an endless 100 year war in the middle east where they kill those who don't think as they do. As the "other" in these wars are always less than human and therefore acceptable to kill. Our armed forces are trained to think that the enemy in the war is less than human, and hence justifies the murder in the name of "freedom, democracy, oil, or whatever they really are fighting for. This poor shooter just believes what he hears from his conservative christian leader, and now see that he can't get a job, so has a hard time admitting that he was wrong and wants to blame others for his failure to understand the world. Maybe his far right beliefs are just not working. Since he is told he can just buy a gun and shoot people as the solution, he took this way as a means to commit suicide by cop. He expected to get shot himself.

The conservative approach is to use violence and murder, so what should we expect from followers of this tired old paradigm. The same can be said for current liberals who also support this war mentality, as we are all addicted to war and oil. Ike said it all when he warned how the conservative war machine of the military industrial complex would turn this country towards something we all really don't want.

Violence is the last resort of the those who can't think of an alternative. "But there's a whole lotta ugly out there, coming at us from a never-ending parade of stupid. It doesn't need any encouragement."

If only we could all just get along and respect and pursue right thinking, right speaking, right acting and believe in:

* The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
* Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
* Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
* A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
* The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
* The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
* Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

Hey folks...get a clue.

Unitarians don't hate Christians, we just don't want to be one. I don't hate the Kiwanis Club, I just have no desire to join.

Most UU's were raised Christian and "de-converted" after much study and thought. Most adult UU's have Christian parents and kin. Yes we are Liberal and thankfully we live in a free country where you can practice one, dozens or no religion. The founding fathers set it up that way.

If you feel called by Jesus to convert us and are convinced that we are miserable, hellish creatures just aching to be saved...we're not, thank you very much.

We just want to be left in peace. If you disagree with our liberal viewpoint, vote for conservatives but please don't kill or harrass us.

This man who so selfishly took his sick conservative bias out on innocent citizens is the kind of person we as American's have to fear the most. Foreign terrorists are not the ones we should be misled into fearing, it is the homegrown one's who can do the most to tear away at the very fabric of this country. Of course there is an element of mental illness to this persons psychology, but he was well aware of what he was doing and his thinking and actions were driven by hate. Not religion, not politics, but inbred hatred. Hate is not a form of mental illness, rather a common human emotion fueled by ones social and economic environment, but most of all by influence of others of same thinking. Hate is what I hear and see day after day on blogs, talk radio and the likes of Fox Spews. Individuals cloaked in religion and phoney patriotism, spewing out their venom of false information in an attempt to make what they hold out to be fact and dedication to protecting America. Well, this sad person is the result of their efforts to play dangerously with the emotions of American's who are already predisposed to violence. I am sure Hannity, Limbaugh, Beck, and the likes will find some way to blame Democrats and Senator Obama for this disgraceful act by a self proclaimed, hate filled "Conservative". Wake up America, it's not about free speech with these separatists, it's about what's fair and balanced, right for America, God's way or the American Flag, less government. It's about power, control, devide and conquer, plain and simple hate. What example do you want for your children?

"Let's be consistent, though. If it's ok to demonize conservatism because of the actions of one demented, depressed, unemployed individual on food stamps, then is it ok to demonize Islam because of actions of hundreds or even thousands of Muslims, in the name of Islam?"

Let's get real here. Conservative Christians, Jews and Muslims have much more in common with each other than they do with liberals.

The fundamentalists of all sects are creating most of the havoc in the world.

The shooter is a Nut Job and deserves to spend his life in prison.

Liberals are Nut Jobs and should be countered with non-violence.

Abortion is Murder.

Homosexuality is wrong.

Everthing should not be "Tolerated"

Some things should be "Discriminated" against.

90% of people should not roll-over for the 10%.

We all have a right to dis-agree with each other and push for what we consider should be our best foot forward expression in the public arena.

Some things should be kept private (i.e. Homosexuality). I don't want to know, nor should they demand that I not counter with a public disagreement with thier public expression.

I love people, but reserve the right to dis-agree with thier choices over a feeling. Morality is not a feeling.

And yes, you are free to choose your own values.

We can agree to dis-agree!

I can still love you and dis-agree with you.

Jesus is the only way to heaven. I know that pisses you off - so what!

I still love you and pray for you.

How's that for stirring the pot!

The United States are neither:

conservative

Christian

or a "nation".

Posts like that of "K" simply prove my point: America is populated by liberals, there is no conservatism in America, it was founded by liberals such as Thomas Jefferson, and is run by liberals such as GW Bush today.

Money, sex, power and religion are at the root of most evil.

Religion in the wrong hands is used to control and manipulate people through fear and ignorance.

Oh, my God. Vanity can't even pause for a funeral.

i killed two flys then spent the next ten looking at the garden and wondered.........

1FLWB2:
me:

You need to brush up on your history of the christian movement. The "divinity" of christ didn't come until much later when christ was elefvate to a god-head.

Early christians believed him to be a prophet much as moses.
-----------------------------

Actually, you need to brush up on YOUR history of the Christian Movement. The laughable theory of
Constantine re-writing the New Testament in the 4th century to create the Trinity and elevate Christ to divinity was debunked with the discovery of the Chester Beatty Papyrus, John Rylands Papyrus, Bodmer I & II Papyrii, & the Oxyrhyncus Papyrus. These copies of the New Testament are dated between 180-250 A.D. (Constantine was born in 271 A.D.) and were unavailable to him for "revision" during the Council of Nicea in 321 A.D. as they were hidden in Egypt due to his predecessor, Diocletian, hunting down every Christian for slaughter. What next: The Earth is still flat?

i killed two flys then spent the next ten looking at the garden and wondered.........

"ME" wrote: "...if your "Christian" friends don't believe in the divinity of Christ, I think that by definition they are not Christians."

Of course not...by your definition. However there is a long history of christian-identifying people who deny the divinity of Christ. That's what the Unitarian part of Unitarian Universalism comes from -- belief in the unity of God, as opposed to a trinity.

Suggest you research the history of Christianity, particularly Arius the 4th century priest who started all this.

Since Christianity is not a centrally-contolled "brand" like Roman Catholicism, there's no way for you to exclude anyone from your definition. Realize this is frustrating for you.

Need an example a a "liberal terrorist"? Try the Unabomber. Also don't forget the Weathermen, the SLA. And other assorted leftist activist groups from the 70s.

Liberals on this board seem to have selective memory. Truth is, this guy was an unhappy nut, and just happened to channel his anger with a few conservative screeds to give him justification. Don't paint the Right with violence over the acts of a few crazed individuals.

Ok - so the "ME" at 12:07 isn't really me... but I'm pretty sure I agree with every point he made, and he probably said it better than I ever could. Don't people who post under other people's names usually make conflicting statements?

(and I'm waiting for whats-his-name to make a comment about the sexism of me referring to "ME" as "he". Darn, and I even used "his" to refer to whats-his-name! Man am I ever politically incorrect today!)

Gavin 082,

The reason you never hear about liberals and acts of mass murder is because when liberals do it politics are never included in the story. Kind of like when liberal politicians get involved in scandals.

Just one liberal mass killing--the shootings at Trolley Square in Salt Lake City, Utah, in Feb of 2007 were committed by a liberal. Seven or eight dead, if I remember correctly. Another four or five wounded.

Had this deranged man been reading books by Michael Moore and Al Franken, that fact would not have been included in the story...

"Post-Christian Religion" - I'm a Unitarian and I've never heard this expression before. It seems to me the writer of this article is adding fuel to the culture wars fire by use of such an expression. And it is not accurate on several counts. First, there are definitely Christian Unitarians, such as our most recent minister of my congregation. Second, saying "Post-Christian" implys that Unitarians have discarded Christianity rather than embraced it, along with the wisdom from other faith traditions. As stated above, the six sources of Unitarian Universalism include Judeo-Christian teachings.

America is ruled by conservatives. The guy ran out of food stamps & blamed the liberals for ruining the country. Wow, that's some crazy thinkin' there. So, the Christian, 'Those shalt not kill guy,' needed a scapegoat to vent his frustrations at someone because he was being marginalized in our society; so he blames the libs. Sheesh! Jesus tales are like Paul Bunyan tall tales; so old, overworked, overwritten for political reasons, whose to know what part of the Jesus story is real vs. fable?

"Beware of the man of one book."

"No religion is higher than the Truth."

Siobhan, raised in a convent, trained to be a faith-healer & was Protestant for 2 decades, & now has been deliberately 'unchurched' through her own choice for the last decade. I'm a nicer person & can relate to all people when I remain 'unchurched.'

The deranged murderer Adkisson was obviously mentally ill, and the hate mongering words of Limbaugh, Hannity and Savage fed his rage. When I first read the story, I wondered if one or more of them had a connection. Words do matter, and they bear some responsibility for feeding Adkisson's illness and rage that led to the killing and maiming of innocents in that Unitarian church. The time is past due to stop patronizing the media outlets and corporate sponsors of such uncivilized discourse before another tragedy strikes. My prayers are with the victims and their loved ones.

This is what America is turning too. The Democrats and Republicans for the last 20 years have been feeding this garbage. It used to be ok to disagree with someone from the other party. Now it is not enough. Hate is now a pre-qualification of becoming a party member.

No longer are the days where it is ok to be pro stem cell research and be anti abortion. The party lines do not allow it. Opinions are no longer allowed except for what the party dictates.

This will end in civil war and / or mass exodus. Vermont will probably be first then others like California, Washington and Oregon will follow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_homosexuality

Read it, nitwits. Despite what your pastor or parents may have told you, the debate is still alive.

So I shot down "immoral", "unnatural", but I forgot the "icky" argument. Well, regular sex sure seemed damn icky when I first heard about it... before I was biologically compelled to do it and enjoy it. I see homosexuality as the same (icky to me, not to them). Lastly, it is between 2 consenting adults. Leave them the hell alone.

Question everything. People who tell you not to question and not to think are trying to control you. Duh. This includes religion. Sometimes *especially* religion. No wonder I am a "lapsed Catholic".

Besides... Jesus was a hardcore tree-hugging liberal radical.

Gavin:

Perhaps this is not a GOOD church for you. It is not a Church of God, in fact.

I was baffled by NBC's commentator on the Today Show on Monday morning who said that the UU church members would benefit from our prayers. Huh? For UUs, praying is optional. We meditate. We sit silently. When someone is sick, we send our thoughts to them. Many, but not all, UUs don't pray.

And what's with the "stupid" comment at the end of this essay? Sounds off-hand. Sounds like Sally Quinn. Although I think Sally is really pretty, I never could get into Sally's writing...so breezy she alwyas sounds so superficial.

Reading through these posts, it seems that some people feel that killing unitarians is ok.

I blame the pundits for this. They have turned americans against one another for the sake of their own greed.

Libs will just love this story - it just screams VICTIM!

To "Me":

Maybe Jesus is the only way to heaven. Either way, it is too bad you haven't found him yet.

I don't appreciate your name-calling:
"Liberals are Nut Jobs and should be countered with non-violence."

"We never hear about the lawbreaking lib'ruls because the entire media is lib'rul-controlled!"

If you find yourself agreeing with this statement, perhaps you are lost. The truth is this way. Over here.

As I said, hate is what it is all about. U2 and the likes will some day be the next ones we will be reading about doing what they consider the good deeds of their God and/or Country for the benefit of the unborn and any other cause they deem fitting. Nothing more than home grown terrorist is what we are hearing here. Taliban and Bin Laden are Saints compared to these people.

just finished reading this article and following comments and I have never been so frightened in all my life. I am not gay, I am not black and I don't belong to any organized religion but right now I'm afraid to step out of my house because I never realized we have so many religious zealots out there just waiting to kill something in the name of christianity.

Bruce,

that was the other "ME" talking. And while I agree in principle with most of what he wrote, that is one of the statements I disagree with - in wording at least. I disagree with most liberals, but I am good friends with many and would never refer to them as "nut-jobs". That word is reserved for the select few like the murderer in this article, and not limited to "liberal" or "conservative".

Sorry about the misunderstanding.

And this psychos mindset was built and fostered by the Republican Party.

When are you going to wake up and realize the problem is 1) partisanship [two choices? not really] and 2) graft disguised a lobbying.

This guy was a symptom, not a cause.

As long as Democrats and Republicans, not mentioned ONCE in the Constitution, are allowed to control the show, you will get marginalized mental deficients like ultra right-wig conservative Republicans who are no better than modern Nazis and the do nothing/ineffective/all talk Democrats who are completely useless if your goal is to uphold the integrity of the Constitution.

This is why America will end in violence in the streets. Both parties are stunning failures.

Thanks, GOP and DNC, for being completely useless to our society except for creating psycho killers and encouraging the stupids and the fascists of the world.

I got news for BOTH parties. If Jesus and Thomas Jefferson came back TODAY, you'd BOTH be screwed. Sleep tight, America. This is the bed you've made by supporting theocratic fascism in the form of the GOP and by supporting spineless half-wits in the DNC who REFUSE TO PROSECUTE THE KNOWN CRIMINALS IN THE WHITE HOUSE. No one should obey the laws of this country until they are applied to the Bush Administration as they were intended, not as Benito Bush redefines them illegally with his use of signing statements.

You want to know who killed these people who were minding their own business and doing no harm? You know, the ones who were being Christ-like in their practice? Look in the mirror. If you claim a party affiliation, you are to blame as much as the guy who pulled the trigger. America needs to wake up and take back the government from these competing CORPORATE INTEREST GROUPS. Because if you think EITHER party is looking out for your best interests as citizens, then you haven't been paying attention.

Anonymous:
Anonymous Said:

* * * * *

"Gavin82's post "Why is it that we NEVER hear about atheists bombing mega churches?

-------------------------

We do. It's called Communist China. Don't believe me? Just ask the Dalai Lama, members of the Falun Gung movement, and any other practioner of a religion in China."

* * * * *

Clearly, we're talking about American politics here. Nice dodge, though.

-------------------------------

Actually, we're talking about the false perception of violence being the specific domain of the "Right" versus non-religious Liberals only engaging in peaceful & pacifistic actions. This is a logical fallacy known as "Description of Hasty Generalization". Both Conservatives and Liberals kill.

"But there's a whole lotta ugly out there, coming at us from a never-ending parade of stupid. It doesn't need any encouragement."

Judging by the posts, it would seem that's precisely what this has engendered: the stupid have been positively energized to get ugly.

One may have taken for granted that a man shotgunning innocent people to death in a house of worship would be universally despised, but no.

Instead, some question not the killer, but the validity of the church, or inject totally unrelated emotionally-charged issues like abortion. Some seem to entertain the notion that this guy wasn't such a bad guy after all, and maybe he had a point in doing what he did. They make excuses for a terrorist, a mass murderer cut from the same cloth as Timothy McVeigh, James Kopp, David Koresh, Eric Robert Rudolph and others who those on the fringe have defended with like enthusiasm, even giving them safe harbor.

It's at times like this I really wish there was a hell.

I'm a liberal, a gun owner, an avid target shooter and sometime hunter, so don't go blathering on and on about guns being the problem. Plenty of liberals feel precisely as I do about guns. If they are used sanely and are locked up when not in use, a firearm is about as dangerous as a bowling ball and about as likely to cause harm.

What I simply cannot fathom is why these morons blame liberals for the mess the country is in. It was the conservatives and their disasterous free trade policies and Wall Street run wild that led to some 40 million jobs being moved off shore. It was AND IS conservative policies that trade US jobs for foreign support for policies. It was the idiocy of globalization that led to our export of technology and production capacity, jump starting the economies of China and India and Vietnam as these US based "international corporations" scour the world for the cheapest labor and production facitlities, and leading the entire third world to compete on the international market for oil and food and metals and virtually every other raw material. It was consevatives who support speculators that artifically drive the cost of oil up even farther in an Enron like Ponzi Scheme that threatens to plunge us into a depression.

The sick moron, that deluded fool, who shot those people at that church was led to blame liberals becasue he was so stupid as to get his "news" from Fox, becasue he was such a brain dead useless piece of protoplasm that he didn't bother to read and educate himself, to allow himself to be manipulated by the NeoCons and their Wall Street brothers. Fox, Limbaugh, Hannidy and the rest of them have been responsible for too much pain, too much violence, that they should be declared terrorists and closed down once and for all.

Religion has very little to do with God.

Since my husband and I have left our church, our family and our faith have never been stronger. We think about and talk with God more now than we ever did while being brainwashed by a priest and political views (conservative--closed minded) that have nothing to do with the ideals and principles of Jesus (liberal-open minded, not narrow in opinion).

The kingdom of God is inside you and all around you,
Not in mansions of wood and stone.
Split a piece of wood and you'll find me.
Lift a stone and I am there.

We are PROUD LIBERALS.

It's easy to be politically and religiously liberal in San Francisco or New York. It is not so easy in middle America.

Think of the pressures on Unitarian (or non-church-going) school children in places like Knoxville, Auburn, or Clemson. When my son was in second grade, his teacher told his class that she wasn't going to vote for Al Gore because Al Gore killed babies. She knew that he and his family supported Gore.

I would also note that liberal religious beliefs can be dangerous in our corner of the world. When Jim Barrett was shot outside a Pensacola abortion clinic in 1994, he was serving as a Unitarian volunteer trying to protect women and doctors.

It can be like being a Christian in Baghdad or a Bahai in Iran.

You can do whatever you like in the name of whatever but that doesn't you are playing with a full deck. IDEA! Find out for yourselves what the facts are...like man kills, always has , always will regardless of affliations with orginizations, clubs, gangs or chuches. The problem isn't some outside force compelling us to do evil. Its OUR default. WE make the choice, not the outside force. It's called synapses.

The whole lot of ugly are the intolerant liberals. This is disgusting. Using a case of a mentally ill man to demean good people.

All I can say about the depths of ignorance and heights of hubris demonstrated by both sides in this "forum" is...WOW.

From Conservative's "Liberals slaughter babies in the womb every day..." to Tim's "Conservatives kill, always have, always will."

2 quick pieces of advice for the majority of the posters here: 1) At least learn how to spell and write an English sentence before you pollute the blogosphere with your tripe; 2) Try reading something other than self-reinforcing online political propaganda for a change. Might I suggest Homer as a nice place to start? After all, you have 2800 years of Western art, history, and literary culture to absorb in a little under eighty years of life - better get cracking!

Congratulations, people, you've just confirmed the premise of this article. I'm sure the authors looked at these comments, looked at each other, shook their heads and walked away...

only this man is responsable for these killings. to this man, these people were killed for the word of GOD for their devotion to homosexuality and other liberal policies...

Sadly this person was under the guise that all "liberals are evil" under another lie from the RNC/GOP and Fox News.....

Why do some "red" states have poor educational budgets?
www.ed.gov/about/overview/budget/tables.html

Why are there so many unhappy people that have strong religious beliefs?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_fanaticism

Is the propaganda starting to settle into the minds of people because of how badly the country has been governed over the last 7 years taking its toll.

I will not be surprised if WP were listed as his favorite Newspaper. Vile people make vile money from vile people.

Well said TMATTIST!

If only reason were the prevalent reaction in today's society. Reason vice reaction. Those on the far left call those on the far right 'reactionary', but isn't it true that both extremes tend to react before they think?

Logic is a precious gift given us (as humans) by either a 'Higher Power' or by natural selection, depending on your theistic views. I find it sad that logic is so rarely visited in this day and age.

To blame the 'culture war' on any one person, or group of persons, is simply foolishness (to label it a 'culture war' is a bit dramatic as well IMO). The simple fact is, humans have been intolerant of other humans for countless millennium... to assume that any one person (i.e. the President of the U.S.) could change this is ridiculous. The only way this could ever change is by education... which is a painfully slow process, and considering the outlook of public education in the U.S., a bleak prospect at best.

Think before you speak, lest you say something totally stupid.

I hate liberals,gays,ucla,muslims ect. Whats wrong with that. I also hate skunks,bugs,cats really most animals. The liberal view is we are all just animals equal to the lion or gopher or the maggot. So to be fair you should have harry reid introduce legislation to make hating animals illegal before you jump on me for hateing a group of people or thier views. Have fun with this posting all you hate filled loser libs out there.
Oh ya dont forget to bash canadians also with your replies..

Let's call Jim Adkisson by what he is: a terrorist. Plain and simple. He's a small-time Tim McVeigh. A right-wing domestic terrorist.

The UU church is not a bunch of crackpot, liberal nuts. Most UU's come from traditional religious backgrounds. Most were raised Christians. We just have a difficult time reconciling the mixed messages that we get from "christian" churches.
We are taught to accept Jesus as our savior, to love one another, to forgive, to do unto others, etc. We are then told that dispite what Jesus taught,we should hate gays and lesbians, and anyone else that the church deems unacceptable. If Jesus were alive today, he would probably be a Unitarian Universalist, because we do believe that every person has value and that we can learn from every religion.

Boy oh boy - you liberals who cite Rush amd Hannity, lol, if you want to go toe-for -toe we'll start with the main stream media who, at last count, were 80% registered liberal Democrat! Do you actually think all those tweed sporting English and Journalism majors are conservative Republicans, lol? Money talks - they don't hand a $40 million contract to anyone lacking substance and credibility. Search Hairspray II on YouTube, there's your culture war in a nutshell, funny but true - whole lot of ugly in the left-leaning HOLLYWOOD movie. ps - I'm a Boston native - listen to Rush as much as I can - and am ashamed of my home State of Masschusetts - for it's gay marriage stance and the mess called the Kennedy's and homo Barney Frank.

"Actually Kennedy started it, Johson escalated it, and Nixon stopped it."

Nixon didn't stop it. He took it into Cambodia. And, if you're going to be historically precise, intervention occurred before Kennedy was elected.

Get YOUR facts straight.

Murder in the name of who?

All this points to the realization that there is no god. Human natural is animalistic at best, we thrive on the hunting of others, we survive on the downfall of others, we route for the destruction of others. For in fact we are no better than any other species of animal and much worse than most.

The book says the we are all gods creatures... yes? that we are the children of god... yes? Then whyfore has our parental figure stood idlely by as we slaughter each other in its name. Why kind of sick twisted parent would let one child kill the other with out intervention? This is no parent that I would want or that I would put my faith in. Stop being sheep and stasrt thinking for yourself. Stop pretending that morales is goning to save you. Human nature is nature at its very worst.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain... for he will surely take advantage of you and your morales.

"EAN:
"Obviously this guy was not a conservative.... a conservative would NEVER take a handout like food stamps. Just a messed up and confussed SOB. "

Obviously, you missed the news story regarding how most of the red states are net receivers of government programs and blue states are net contributors. That's what is so ironic -- conservatives are the ones taking the handouts they criticize liberals for making available!

Every time someone goes on a killing rampage at a church, I wait with absolute confidence for confirmation that the murders were not acts of an atheist, but of a devoted believer in God.
Once again, I'm right.
There are so many examples of religious/right wing people murdering others. Remember the BTK killer? Like all these nuts, he was "active in his church." Paul Hill? John Salvi? Eric Rudolph? All Christians, all cold-blooded killers. Has anyone heard of a single atheist killer in the U.S. in the past fifty years?
One thing's for sure: Conservative feel violence is just another means of achieving goals. Liberals, on the other hand, are morally enlightened people who abhor violence.
Which side are you on?

It's Hannity's wet dream . . .

For all the opinions putting the DEms in the same lane as the PUBs.. no way in hell..

THE GOP has implemented a no holds bar Intent to winning. Has nothing to do with integrity, facts, substanc. Hnse the Tag the Do Nothing party.

The Necosn that co-opted the Bpubs immediately implemented Corporate Socialism, Fascism, Corpritism. Theie dictatori authoritarian behavior completely by passes the normal political processes in governance of a country.

They use fear and hate and prejudice and they constantly use that model. They call themselves Conservatives but there is nothing conservative about them. Except when it is convenient to bring it up.

The LIB-ER-AL word is the new Nig-g-er non gender pronoun attack word.

LIBERAL Bad, Conservative Good.
But neither word has anything to do with there definitions.

They are to provide practice for the "Minds of the Willing", as Adolp Hitler detailed in Mein Kampf.

ISA

I don't know why this guy Adkisson had such a hard time finding a job. Couldn't he have applied for a senior position in the Bush Administration?

"A little off topic, but doesn't David Gushee need to take a sex ed class? "Gay and lesbian issues, like abortion..."???? Of course, lesbians can get pregnant, but I would assume that the vast majority of such instances are completely intentional. Of course, unless there's some medical breakthrough of which I'm not aware, gay men probably aren't having too many aboritions. So, as a proximal issue, I can't think of any group within society that is less affected by abortion. Does he think that gay people run a monopoly on the stork delivery industry or something like that? I just don't understand."

Some people, such as the person who posted the above and someone who posted something similar, need to take English lessons. "Gay and lesbian issues, like abortion, have also been tearing the nation apart," means that abortion issues have been tearing the nation apart and similarly gay and lesbian issues have been tearing the nation apart. It has nothing to do with gay and lesbian abortion.

Pierre JC - what exactly is "morally enlightened"?

(I'm being nice and ignoring the obviously incorrect generalizations. I'm sure someone else will bash you for those, but I'm trying to stay polite).

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that this guy was on the verge of losing his food stamps when he decided to shoot up some liberals? How could a legitimate, O'Reilly loving conservative accept welfare? I suspect alot of self-professed conservatives are of the same ilk: eager to spout right wing ideology while simultaneously taking advantage of programs that are established by a progressive government. Hypocrite.

Yo, Bub and Me:

You sound awfully... *bitter*...

@UU in RI:

Good point. So much for "self-reliance".

"Why is it that there are never any terrorist attacks by Liberals? Seriously. This guy, the Christians bombing & shooting up planned parenthood clinics, the Oklahoma City building, the Unabomber, 9/11, lynchings, people killing people because they're gay... It goes on and on! Why is it that we NEVER hear about atheists bombing mega churches? When was the last time a bunch of marauding gay people beat up somebody because they were straight? Liberals aren't shooting people over their politics."

Remember the Weathermen and Symbionese Liberation Army? Different times, different people, same nuts.

I wonder if any of this has anything to do with specific religion/politics/socio-economic inclinations...

Is it remotely possible Schopenhauer was right when he attempted to demonstrate that all human existence is ultimately futile since it can be fundamentally characterized by a want of satisfaction(translation: happiness) that can never be attained?

Or - perhaps - Carlin reinforced the above theory by equating humanity with an "evolutionary cul-de-sac"?!

Everyone talks past each other here. I'd say that's the major malfunction.

Reminds me of the exchange between firebrand patriot Nately and the cynical old man in Catch-22:

Nately: It's better to die on your feet than live on your knees!

Old Man: No, no, you've got it all wrong. It's better to live on your feet than die on your knees.

David Berkowitz was close to being an atheist... or maybe he was just a dyslexic Christian... he believed that 'Dog' had spoken to him. LOL

Very good point though... how many millions, if not billions, have been killed in the name of God during human history? Thats not to say that all Christians are maniacal gun nuts who worship Sean Hannity, or that all Muslims are potential suicide bombers... I believe it does say something about humans' innate ability to misinterpret a positive religious message and twist it around their own shallow preconceptions.

"tuxedocat - sorry, just laughing a little at your post. Trying to be PC are we? Last I heard, when one is referring to a group of people of mixed gender, "men" is an appropriate term. Just as, when referring to a third person whose gender is unknown, "he" is the correct term. I'm sorry if you misunderstood."

"Men" has not been the "appropriate term" for referring to a mixed-gender group for over 20 years. You are sadly out of date if you still think this is a question of politically correct terminology. As an editor and university instructor in language and media for the past three decades, I can tell you with complete confidence that the word "men" no longer means "women also." Nor is "he" the proper pronoun to use in referring to an antecedent of unknown gender.

"When last you heard" must have been a long, long time ago. And your ignorance is doubly pitiable if you are a woman. Wake up and join the 21st century.

the saddest thing is that our culture not only condones this type of attack but encourages it.

One only has to listen to the ravings and rantings of Savage, Coulter, Dobbs and the rest to see how someone would do this. These people bombard the airways with hate and fear every day.

We are a culture that honors violence (physical and mental).

Tolerance and respect (especially for views not are own) are not dirty words. The only way we can live in peace and harmony is for all of us to practice these principles.

Ever notice some of the most violent political acts come from the right-wing conservatives? Timothy McVeigh who slaughtered hundreds with the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 is a good example. An example of mis-placed rage and hatred from the American right. Add this loser Addkison to the list.

The last time activists from the Left initiated acts of violence and terror, was in the early 1970s with the Weather Underground group. Clearly, the violent pendulum has swung in favor of the right-wing activists.

It is only a matter of time before the fanatics listening to Savage, Limbaugh and others start to kill Democratic politicians, liberal activists, university professors, members of the clergy.

Complain about the O'Reilly/Hannity influence on this man at;

yourcomments@foxnews com

Fox is pouring gasoline on people like this.

U2 - Clearly you are incapable of performing ethical calculus, so get back under the porch with the rest of the killers.

2 Living vs x Unborn? 2 Living always wins. You cannot compare an actual life to a hypothetical life. There is a difference between theory and reality. Hypothetically fundamentalism is a type of religious practice. In reality, it's a form of mental illness. It's also counter to Christianity and the Will of God if you believe that free will is a gift from God. Just like 2 real actual live people trump any number of potential unborns. Of course, you fundies could go kill an abortion doctor to prove my point by negative example. Yeah, kill a DOCTOR because you are Pro-Life. Kill people who aren't Pro-life. Oh wait! You've already done that. A nice illogical conclusion based on fear, delusions and religious zealotry.

And read some biology. Until you can survive UNAIDED outside the womb, you are not a person. You're just an orderly growth with the potential for existence. Some of you still are just a growth despite being outside the womb, just not very orderly.

"So conservatives don't take Social Security either, right?"

Right on, UU with Guns!

Republicans hate to be reminded that those SS checks they get every month are actually welfare.

Heh-heh

The most important element of the story was in a footnote paragraph. Here is that paragraph:

"Police said his ex-wife once was a member of that church, that he was having trouble finding a job, and that his food stamps had been cut."

No job and no food stamps?

Dig? I bet not: so try it out buddy.

There is no excuse for shooting or killing, however Darwin does have his insights. But when someone's life collapses due to unemployment, and when the same someone sees their homes and lands repossessed, and when the same someone sees their world-view as merely one of a debt-slave, and when the same someone is starving, then we perhaps can get better insight into the personality of the shooter.

Police seem to blame this shooting affair on political idealism, and resolve the issue by pointing to a book on the night-stand. But I wonder what other books he had? Is this mentioned? I doubt it, and in a world of modern-sound-bite thought mentality, why shoud it be? The educated, after reviewing their own book-stands, will groan at the way the Police came to their conclusions. The ignorant will see its merit.

Contemporary religious communities are, on occasion, certainly blameworthy for instigating hatred and misunderstanding, are they not? And if this is the case, they certainly should not be immune to the consequences of cultivating this in-your-face hatred. A bull, after all, is innately attracted to a red flag (although, of course the metaphysical philosophers may argue that the cosmos is actually colorless, which I quite agree with). That is to say you can't go around publicly persecuting and bad-mouthing those that do not believe in your religious and sexual beliefs and expect that you will be safe within your Temples.

America with its massive, uncounted displaced car-living citizens, its mushrooming tent-cities, its excessive poverty and debt-anguished families, and its corrupt, money-bought presidency, requires, nay, demands, a new Religion.

When an American enters a Temple and kills its congregation, we are at liberty to surmise that there lies, at the very roots of American society, something terribly wrong.

We will now see gated Church communities or security checks on entering Churches. And if this legitimate development doesn't make Athiests sneer, nothing will.

I am informed there is an "up-tick" of pick-pockets in the better Churches.

Well, its about bl**dy time!

Homosexuals and Lesbians wont get abortions.....
If they want children they will be able to love and raise them as would anyone else...

The religiuous right...idiots...these are 2 segments of society that won't get an abortion yet they hate them anyway?

This society loves liars like Coulter, Hannity, O'Reily, hell will love 'em too...when they can shake hands with Kenneth Lay..CEO ENRON, they'll get a real heating bill....RNC/GOP losers....

So now we can add liberals to the list of enemy combatants in America's culture war? Can now add? What do call the lynchings and treatment of blacks and those who supported civil rights reform?

I've been a liberal since the civil rights movement in the late 1960s. Beginning in the early 1990s I first noticed that conservatives had stopped engaging in political debates and were beginning a campaign to convince the American people that liberals are evil, godless, America-hating traitors. With the collapse of Communism, the right needed a new enemy to hate and we were it.

For example, just check out the titles of books written by Ann Coulter in this era. One, "Treason: Liberal Treachery From the Cold War to the War on Terrorism" actually accuses liberals of being traitors to our country! What about "Godless: The Church of Liberalism" Is it any wonder an angry conservative might feel he is doing the country a favor by ridding it of a few liberals?

I am sick of it. Just read this earlier comment by David Dennis:

----I was born in Knoxville, the "Volunteer State". These non-Christian Churches (i.e. universal, unitarian) supporting liberal agenda have chosen the wrong state, or region of the state, perhaps Memphis would have been a better positioning for such a movement.

These universalists are non-Christians in the fundamentalists view, and there are many in the hills of that area who will understand what was done by the criminal shootist and not entirely disagree; something needs to be done, perhaps this went too fair, but a certain part of the salt of the earth [God's People] will see this as a start."-----------

Perhaps this went too far? Perhaps? A certain part of the salt of the earth will see this as a start? This may be a start??

Conservatives need to re-examine their hatreds and their righteous belief that they are the only true Americans and that their God says conservatives are right and liberals are evil, and that means conservatives have the right to do whatever it takes to rid the country of evil liberals.

This isn't a whole lot of ugly, this is a whole lot of hatred.

Don't ever underestimate the power of provocative talk radio to enocurage (intentionally or not) horrible acts of violence. Talk radio was directly responsible for sparking the genocide in Rawanda. If we want to survive as a multi-cultural democratic society, then tolerance and respect for other people is an absolute must. It is NOT an option. Once enough people decide to adopt intolerant views, then it's game over.

*sigh* Something like this was bound to happen sooner or later, with the constant right-wing hate-speech. Too bad it took something on this scale for people to take some notice of it.

What, Thozmaniac, can't handle the truth? I'd like to see some examples of liberals beating, shooting, and bombing conservative people, churches and organizations. Oh wait, you can't give me any now, can you?

Oklahoma City bombing - Tim McVeigh, not exactly a bleeding heart liberal.

Abortion clinic bombings - um, not done by liberals

Beating Matthew Shepard and leaving him to die tied to a fence post - done by redneck homophobes, not liberals.

New Life Church in Colorado Springs - Matthew Murray was raised in a conservative Christian household and shot up OTHER CHRISTIANS.

And now this shooting. You may say my comments are vile, but the proof is in the pudding. Right-wing nutjobs and hateful conservative Christians are the ones doing these awful things, not liberals.

People...stop the rationalizing.

http://bible.cc/

Tuxedocat - sorry if I came off as rude, but that's the way I was taught. And I'm only 20 years old... so there's no way I'm 20 years out of date unless all my teachers had no idea what they were saying. (Now that I think about it...)

And it always struck me that using "they" for an indeterminate 3rd person could have no basis other than political correctness. It's not unique to the English language - I know Spanish and German also use the male form in those cases, so it makes more sense to me to stick with what I've been taught is correct.

Join the 21st century - I've spent almost half my life in the 21st century... I am more than happy to admit that I'm probably the most naive person on this board. But I'm trying to learn, and so far I've learned a lot more by posting and being shot down than I have by just reading angry comments.

David Waters wrote:

"Angry, hateful and deranged people kill Amish school girls and Virginia college students and shoppers at a Nebraska mall. They kill Christians, Jews and Muslims, atheists and humanists, conservative and liberals, Republicans and Democrats, unitarians and trinitarians."

There is one underlying commonality among all these killings: easy access to guns in the U.S.

Everyone is trying to make this too complicated. It is not about Conservative, Liberal, Republican, Democrat, Independent, God or no God, it is about Hate. A human seed of emotion that can only develop and grow if planted and nurtured. To some degree it is planted in all of us, it is the feeding of it that results in what happened this past weekend. Quit making excuses for what happened. We live in a free society, and there is no stopping hate. We can only accept it is there and do all we can to protect ourselves and our children from it's evil deeds. You cannot overcome hate with more hate. Just as with a raging fire, you have to deprive it of what feeds it if you are going to be successful in putting out the destructive flame. It is not about killing the messenger, it is about limiting their power to the point that they are no longer effective. Shutting of the flow of fuel that gives them the power they have. As a people, we can take lawful measures to limit power of hate radio, tv and print. Quit watching, listening, reading and supporting it. With out high ratings and funding they too will fall into the pits of irrelevancy.

"Jesus is the only way to heaven. I know that pisses you off - so what!"

Jesus is the only way to YOUR heaven, pal, and it's a place I wouldn't want to go if it means spending eternity with idiots like you.

Whew - just reread my post. I was not taught to be rude! "That's the way I was taught" was meant to refer to English grammar...

Suicides always increase when Republicans are in charge. This guy is a typical neo-con. He attacked unarmed women and children.

Sadly, a shotgun of this type is one that is both useful for hunting, and good for legitimate home defense. So banning them isn't gonna to happen, ever in this country in MOHO, not should it.

This attack is a natural and expected result of the books the man was reading, and the tone, and content of the talking heads he admires. When you write books that accuse those that disagree with you of treason even when they have the same end goals, this is the natural expected, and INTENDED result.

Look at the comments of "CONSERVATIVE" and you can see the face of total madness without even leaving this site.

'Homer' is about as modern and as valid a work of literature as the bible. For modern, I suggest :

http://www.arxiv.org.

no thats not what terrorist means...

BS lots of liberals have blown things up as well as the other stuff
at this particular point in history the 'right' is the underdog and reverts to the same tactics used by the left when it was the underdog

before you claim i am full of it...
look at the anti slavers in america between 1800-1862
they were liberal
they were right (or correct in their thinking)
they killed slavers every chance they got

as to this butthead well, the interesting thing is whats not be talked about here
WHY WOULD A PERSON IN HIS POSITION BE A DAMNED CONSERVATIVE?
to the person that said he wasnt a conservative because he was on food stamps, BS the majority of the food stamp recipients are white over 21 and conservative
this ideal that food stamp people are minority liberals is just BS
anyone realize how many people that 'should' be liberal and pro goverment are not?
go to any state agency and get the workers to let their hair down, then query them about their thoughts on life and it is amazing to see how many of them or rabid conservatives... glad to tell you how screwed up the goverment is.
there is the only part of this worth talking about
this is the only part of this discussoin worth thining about

After reading all the comments, I've learned several things: The UU church deserved it because they aren't christian - so they should all be killed; abortions caused this guy to go on his rampage - so they should be banned; radio hosts pulled the trigger - so they should be taken off the air; conservatives are lunatics, behind all domestic terrorism and will ultimately be the cause of the demise of the planet - so they should be removed from our society; Republicans ruined America - they should be banned; Ben Franklin and George Washington were "invented" by liberals (yes..that one really made me laugh); Fox news pulled the trigger -- take it off the television now!; immigrants who read or watch right-wing political shows should be deported; people who believe in women's rights are murderers - they should be locked away; liberals are Godless and lacking morals and the cause of the decay of this country - ban them all; homosexuals should be shunned from society.

Umm.... will there be anyone left in America when everyone is done banishing every one else from our society?

The man who committed this heinous act had his own personal reasons for doing so. His intolerance of the differences of others created this nightmare. He has been apprehended and will stand trial for his crimes.

How is it that so many other outside factors are being blamed?

Judge not folks. Live your life and let others live theirs. Accept the reality that every single individual (key word - individual) on the face of this earth has the right to his or her own opinions, own belief system and own lifestyle. If we were meant to have identical ideologies, if we were intended to all conform to one format of beliefs, humanity would have been designed that way...but it wasn't. We are individuals who have the right to believe and live differently.

This man, blames his crime on his intolerance. Will you all be joining him in your intolerance? Are you willing to be judged as you all judge the folks who don't conform to your beliefs?

Guns?

Guns don't kill bullets do, outlaw bullets and guns will go away.

While that person trys to get rid of the bullets in the world, wake up to the ones who once again blame the gun. The idiot would have used a shovel he was an idiot looking to blow off his mentally whacked steam.

It is simply people trying to be heard over the tolerance police, its called backlash!

Get used to it i speak to people daily who are sick of the whining form these special interest groups.

He was wrong, is wrong and always will be wrong. Some idiots dont know how to be heard. Some are heard and ignored, he thought he was making the playing field even, wrong, wrong way to do it.

Axon wrote:
Congratulations, people, you've just confirmed the premise of this article. I'm sure the authors looked at these comments, looked at each other, shook their heads and walked away...

------------------------------

Actually, they probably high-fived each other at the amount of readership and response they received. What's worse than 200+ crazy comments about your article? Zero comments.

this guy was the logical and inevitable end result of an america that not only tolerates, but admires despicable celebrities like rush limbaugh, ann coulter, sean hannity, michael savage and their ilk. the ones feigning shock at this incident remind me of the sanctimonious mayor in the movie 'chocolat'. after religiously damning an element he hates, he is scandalized when one of his followers carries out what he is too good to do himself. regardless of whether one agrees with the beliefs of this innocuous denomination, it is impossible to argue that they are not what madam coulter has in mind when she tosses around terms like 'traitor' or 'drone'. if she had any consistency at all, her next column would vigorously defend this murderer.

Judged;

yeah baby, now your talking!

Judging from the text and context of many of the posts to this article, and comments to articles in other papers, the terminology used, the bitterness and factionalism which we see, Americans apparently are an ignorant, uneducated, and nasty bunch of "Know Nothings."

Guess we shouldn't have ditched civics in high school. It's all quite disturbing, pathetic and sad.

As a nation, a culture and a people, we're done.

This story looks like it will have a long life as an anecdotal incident to be whipped out to "prove" the inherent evil in conservatives-

my overwhelming feeling when this story broke wasn't one of a triumpant "aha, those fundy/conservatives breed such ugliness- stupidity- it is ok for me to hate them when,hey- they are so evil!"

my instinct was to think of my own neighborhood and see if i could identify any disenfranchised people whose sense of isolation and frustration may lead them to some future similar act of desperation.

if you want to be liberal- start by being liberal on the side of compassion-
if you want to be conservative- err on the side of justice.


i find that, in real life- when some person is spewing some vitriol of some odd xenophobia- that the tiniest kindness goes a long way-
i'm going to be on the lookout for future nutwing assassins-

what a great sorrow this is for all involved-

David, I agree that this is sad and very ugly. However, I see a bigger picture here. Yes, the shooter used to go to church but he went there for the wrong reasons as most do; they want heaven here on earth and don't see themselves clearly. Most want God to be in their back pocket as a good luck charm or a jeanie they can rub and get blessed. Just as long as the church is making people feel good and they have their families, they are oh so happy to tell people that God loves them. When they're suffering short-term, they lose their mind and give up on what they considered faith which is not faith at all. On another note: I believe there are some who mame and kill for what they consider their moral or social rights when in fact, it's selfish ambition and selfish desire. In closing, when I read the posts above, they are quite hateful and bordering on fanaticsim. In addition, as a christian, I find that the liberal media and their agenda is disguised as loving the earth, and the world and looking out for the poor when in fact, it's liberal fanaticism and they will do anything, at any cost, to have the desires of their immoral, socialist agenda. They're the ones to watch out for....This country is headed for liberal communism.

The country is divided more than at any time since the civil war. Red and Blue states. Lib/Con, White/Black, Male/Female, Young/Old, Citizens/Immigrants, Gay/Straight, Rich/Poor, Atheist/Religious, Your Religion/My Religion. Some of this is due to the nature of our melting pot, now called multi-cultural society. But instead of trying to become more tolerant of our differences we've become the zero tolerance society. Our positions have hardened. Temperature's rising, and we're ready to fight. The outcome is something like what happened at the UU church. The only way to bring us together is to open our hearts, extend our hands in friendship, or at least tolerance, and try like hell to make this country work. Or we can wait for a disaster to happen, like the Great Depression or WW2, the last time we came together for our common cause. We must stop looking at the world through the distorted lens of our own experience and start seeing the truth.

YOU SHALL NOT KILL.

I do agree what Mr. Greginnyk have said. The so called "Liberalism" evolving since mid 60's "Hippie Culture" era, and insinuated itself in mainstream society, and world Cultural heritage at large.
This "Liberalism" is destroying the very foundation of Human Habitat, the core NIDUS Family structure- built on by people like Husband, wife, Children. To day this basic structure is crumbling due to "Liberal" Pseudo thesis and doctrine. Then what are the "weapons" the liberals are applying? They are- (1) Homosexual-ism and Gay/ Lesbian cohabitation and Marriage. (2) Assault on Churches and religious institutions by appointing "Gay Priests" to vitiate religious institutions in to "Religious Anarchy". (3) Legal institutions are invaded by passing Laws that allow Gays/ Lesbians have equal status and Equal right to Mary themselves, raise Children [ single mother status, adapting children by Gay couples?]. (4) These liberals are now manipulating Medical science that " Gay-ism" has got Genetic Basis, so to be a Gay is Scientifically normal. (5) Even in Arm forces, these "Liberals" are trying to recruit " Homosexual Youths [ Boys and Girls] to destroy Arm force's dignity and Respectability and Its combat ability. And my personal view that any Army with its "Homosexuals" can not function optimally in War situation. Those were also reported that "Army Deters and run away soldiers are mainly Either "Homosexuals" or " Unisex- oriented".
(6) On social security benefit and Dole situations- These Liberals are asking a Special Status and privilege for Single mothers with their Offspring's, Gay couples and other Homosexuals? Because these Groups deserve Special attention of their Vulnerability and their deserved "Human Right" mandate? And for those reasons These "Homosexual" people are able to Jump the queue and grab the benefit that meant for genuinely deserved Tax-paying Citizens, are squarely deprived and thrown away in to the Gutter of Poverty Line. (7) Liberals need "Illegal Aliens", Why? These illegal Immigrants will be placed in Ghettos, given assurance of Jobs, and other social benefits to keep them alive. These Immigrants will get low paid jobs and other state sponsored Benefits [ Means snatching the moneys from that what allot ed for Genuine Native and needy People]. However these Migrant Aliens will never be allowed rise from their "Poverty Line". Because the liberals have a total control on these aliens and who in turn will Vote for their Masters- the Liberals, and these liberals will remain in "Power Line" Forever.
Conclusion-A- I support David Atkisson for his "Rebellious Mood" but I don't agree on his method of action.
B- The time has come for us- the ordinary Citizens to resist these dangerous Liberal Agenda. If we do nothing to prevent such trend, then my friends - be assured of our Humanity's total destruction, and that will come very soon than later.
C- In my personal consideration- Liberals are more dangerous than "alien Terrorists", because These Liberals are the Enemy inside our Home. Logic is - You can fight Enemy- Out side in whatever of their forms, but you can not fight against a adversary < that has been grown inside Your own House.

I can understand somewhat how the this "person" feels about these things, however, he made the choice to let it bother him like this. Jim David Adkisson should stay around people who share his beliefs and "values" and don't get involved with those he feels are reprobates. Gays, interracial couples, pro-choice advocators, whatever, haven't hurt you physically or taken food out of your mouth or kept you from thinking or doing the things you want Mr. Adkisson. People like Mr. Adkisson should just mind their business. God is the final "decider" and he's not going to ask us about the sins of others. He going to question us about our sins. Killing people for this is not the answer - he should be the Christian that he claims he is and pray for them.

To get a good idea of reality, one only has to look at the talking points of Conservatives:

The truth is ALWAYS the opposite.

Conservatives talk of the sanctity of life while cheering on war and calling the deaths of innocent civilians "collateral damage".
The fact that they scoff at everything from studies that show traces of rocket fuel in breast milk, (but don't want to regulate the industries responsible), to contraception, seem to indicate that they love the fetus, but hate the child....
and most particularly, the woman.

I get the impression that many conservatives are comfortable with Andrea Yates, as long as she didn't have an abortion.

Also,research suggests: the suicide rate increases under conservative governments:

The authors argue that Conservative rule traditionally implies a less interventionist and more market-orientated policy than liberal rule.
This makes people feel more detached from society, they added.

Remember, that after 9/11, Bush told America to "Go shopping".

I think that the middle class becomes strong under liberal ideas like the GI bill, social security, and medicare, and when they take these rights for granted, they become prey to the conservative desire to redistrbute the wealth once again from the middle class to the rich.

They accomplish this by appealing to the old, 'You got yours', everybody below you is somehow less deserving, and should be left for bootstraps.

"Now let's focus on guns, God and gays, just like they do in Pakistan and Afganistan.

Mark Twain was right when he said:

"The radical of one century is the conservative of the next. The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out, the conservative adopts them.
Mark Twain - Notebook, 1898

SJ - the country is not as divided as it was since the civil war. That's an illusion. The country has always been divided about something. The Vietnam War, for example, was much more of a cultural watershed than anything you mentioned. The TN shooter was a nutcase but this was nothing like the national guard firing on students.

Rationalist - I love your ironic choice of posting name, since there is nothing rational about your deranged and misspelled ramblings. You sound like an Adkisson in the making. Do you "know" that "armies" in other "countries" have "homosexuals" in their "ranks" and still managed to "function" as well or better than our military? Sorry to tell you, but almost all people under 35, whether evangelical or not, have large gotten over this boogeyman/paper tiger/monster under the bed and don't care. They've realized that fear of homosexuals is absolutely ridiculous and rooted in childish insecurities. Right now, according to a survey, a majority of *evangelicals* don't object to gays serving in the military! BTW I love how the rights everybody else has are suddenly "special rights" when people not like yourself have them.

Among the items seized from Adkisson's house were three books: "The O'Reilly Factor," by television commentator Bill O'Reilly; "Liberalism is a Mental Disorder," by radio personality Michael Savage; and "Let Freedom Ring," by political pundit Sean Hannity.
Did this guy trade his Food Stamp's for those books? Hey FOX News, this guy is a catch, which commentator going help a fellow Liberal Hater out?

Fox News has been enabling the demonization of
"Liberals" for far to long.

Complain about O'Reilly and Hannity and their contribution to this tragedy at:

yourcomments@foxnews.com

Thank you...pass it on!

Co-conspirators in this terrorist attack on liberals are O'Reilly, Hannity, Limbaugh, Coulter, Buckley, Dobbs, and a host of others including a number of well known Republican politicians. Indict them all for accessory before the fact of murder (the Charles Manson case is your precedent for the indictment.)

Here in Pennsylvania, two one year graduates of a local high school who were star players on the varsity football team brutally beat a Mexican immigrant and killed him. Co-conspirators in this terrorist attack are Lou Dobbs, the Mayor of Hazelton and a host of other politicans and right wing media pundits. The Charles Manson case is again your legal precendent.

Maybe Bush can pardon this guy, and he can get a show on Fox News.

Liberals didn't ruin this country, greed and religious zeal did. Two primary examples are the annhilation of the Native American societies, and the institution of slavery. Since the two began in this land in 1492, this country was broken when in started. Is it not a "conservative" ideal to keep it as it is: broken?

Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. Still a good idea.
Blame partisanship for the culture wars. People are individuals, not angry drones colored red or blue.
I hope the folks at that church get lots of support and love and realize that the shooter is alone and deranged, not the vanguard of a hunting party.

"a whole lotta ugly comin' at you from a never-ending parade of stupid." sums up the mentality of the enablers of Cheney's Jesuslandia.

God, guns, Leviticus, racism, greed, intolerance and self-rightous arrogance are the ingredients of ignorant and dangerous America neocons / neochristians. These people hate the concept of "tolerance" like evil hates the light.

As for me, I prefer Mexico until (if ever) this American nightmare of the 27% bullies running the country is over. It's a place with more freedom, tolerance and tranquility. Only the police and outlaws have guns - not every religious nut job on every corner.

Eyewitness of What went on in Knoxville from http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/07/tomorrow-therell-be-sun.html
by Shaker Bekitty, a member of the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church

I'm never going to be able to hear balloons popping or cars backfiring without ducking under a table. Ever again.

"Come on! We're going to be late. I promised Taylor and Gina we'd be there and take photos. I want a good seat, and it's bound to be popular." It was 9.50am on Sunday, 27 July 2008, the day of the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church's production of "Annie Junior". The children and teens of the church, along with our sister church Westside UU, had been working on the play at their summer theatre camp for the last two weeks. My friend Gina had done the choreography, but had had to go to Florida before the performance. I was tasked with making sure I took plenty of photos and reviewing the play for her, a task I didn't mind a bit.

We went into the sanctuary which, as I'd expected, was crowded with people. Most were TVUUCers, a fair amount were from Westside, and there were friends of the cast who had come to see them perform. Everyone was happy.

At the door, the ushers were giving out programs. Greg McKendry handed David his program with a smile. We liked Greg. He was a tireless worker for the church, intelligent, always looking for ways that he could make a difference. He and his wife Barbara were in the process of adopting our friend Taylor, who had been a ward of the state and had gone from foster home to foster home, seeking stability and a real loving family. He'd finally found it in the McKendrys.

The seats that we usually took on the right-hand side had a large sign on them that said "Reserved for Cast Members", so we sat in the front row on the other side of the sanctuary.

It was 10.00am. Time for the service to start.

A member of the church board came up and made some announcements, including that the collection would be taken up before the performance as they didn't want to interrupt it halfway through. There was laughter, and people willingly put money on the collection plate.

Then the microphone was handed to TVUUC Music Director Vicki Masters, who had both produced and directed the play. She spoke briefly about the theatre camp and introduced the play. Then she sat down and the overture began. It was 10.10am.

The orphans came on and the first scene began. Annie came on, comforted them, and they sang "Maybe". Then Miss Hannigan came in. It was 10.15.

She said her first line, and then we heard a loud noise from the right-hand side of the sanctuary.

Pop.

People looked up, puzzled. Was is a sound equipment malfunction? Part of the scene? I'd never seen "Annie", so I had no idea what to expect. Vicki got up to see what had happened. Then she screamed "Get down, everybody!"

Then two more sounds.

Pop, pop.

Then a whole lot of screaming and running.

David said to me urgently "We need to get out. Now!"

I grabbed my bag and coffee cup and went quickly out the fire exit door to the left of the stage. As we left, I could smell something burning. We came out onto the lawn by the car park. I still had no idea what was going on.

David said, "There was a guy with a shotgun. I saw him."

The rest of the afternoon is a series of images. Taylor, running up to us, crying hysterically, yelling "Greg's been shot!" Us, wordlessly trying to comfort him. Parents, hysterical with worry, trying to find where their children had gone. One person going around, making a list of who was present. Brian Griffin, TVUUC's Director of Lifespan Religious Education, calming us all down, leading a prayer and meditation. Police cars, ambulances, and fire engines arriving at the church within minutes. Everybody took out their cellphone, everybody made the call to 911. The first call got through at 10.18am, and the first police arrived at 10.21.

I later heard other things. How when the shooter had arrived, he had first tried to go through the stage door on the right side of the sanctuary, but was turned away. How he had walked past some of the children, taken a 12-gauge shotgun out of the guitar case he was carrying, and started to shoot. How our dear friend Greg had stood there, shielding other people with his body, and been shot at point-blank range. How when the shooter tried to reload his gun, three people (including John Bohstedt, who got him in a flying tackle) jumped on him, followed quickly by more. How at the sound of the shots, one of the older children led all of the others in the RE wing out a back door and up to the neighbouring Second Presbyterian Church. How the injured people had been taken to the University of Tennessee Hospital, which had the best trauma unit in the city.

I started making calls on my cellphone. First, to Gina, to tell her what had happened, and to make sure that her husband Eric was alright. I hadn't seen him, and I was worried. Then my friends Sara and Sean. They had been running late, had got to the church at 10.25 and were turned away at the gate. As they turned the car around, they saw the ambulances arriving. They had called and left messages, wondering what had happened and whether we were alright. Then my family.

Then we all went back to the Fellowship Hall and were talked to by a police detective, who was in charge of the case. He asked if anybody who had actually seen the shooter to put their hand up, and took them away to another room to be interviewed. David went with them. I stayed in the Fellowship Hall, talking to people, giving and receiving hugs, making sure my friends were alright. Then my cellphone strted ringing. The media had gotten hold of the story, and it had gone national. Friends and family needed to know that we were alright, and if there was anything they could do.

All I could ask them to do was light a candle for us, and for Greg, Barbara and Taylor.

I was relying on calls from outside to tell me what was going on. We weren't given any information. Most of us were in various stages of shock and grief. And anger. Lots of anger. All of it directed at the person who had come into our sanctuary and hurt our people.

I was asked to watch Taylor, as he was unable to sit in one place and stay there for very long. I understood his need to talk to others, to find out whether they were alright, to be comforted in turn.

Volunteers from the American Red Cross came in bearing food. People came from Second Presbyterian bringing cold drinks and ice. Everyone felt the need to do something, to help, to feel useful.

I couldn't eat. Not then. It took me until Monday night before I could taste food again.

When we were finally allowed to go, we were directed out the back of the church car park, where the media were waiting for us. I just kept repeating "no comment, no comment" as we drove away.

We went over to Sara's apartment, where she and Sean were waiting for us. Our friend Kat, a trauma nurse, came over shortly afterwards. Together we watched the coverage unfold on the internet and television. We were shaking, tearful, and numb by turns. How could this happen? Why did Greg, a good man, have to die? How could a human being do that to other human beings?

When we saw Greg's picture on the television, it finally hit me, and I couldn't stop crying. I couldn't stop thinking of Barbara and Taylor. How they must be feeling. What could we do to help them?

Later, we went along to a service at Westside UU, where we met up with more of our friends who had been worried about us. All of them had been planning to be at the TVUUC service that morning, and for various reasons, none of them made it along. For this I was truly thankful.

As Kat, David and I entered the church at Westside, a photographer snapped us from behind without our knowledge.

At the service, the Reverend Mitra Jafarzadeh said, "There will be a time for grief. There will be a time for tears. This is a time of shock. I'm not going to tell you where was a great reason for this. I'm not going to tell you there was some cosmic purpose for this. I am going to tell you that it is good to be together."

The following night, there was a candlelit vigil at Second Presbyterian Church for those injured and killed and their families. There were almost a thousand people, singing, holding hands, crying, being a community. Some of them were from TVUUC, some from Westside UU, a few from Second Presbyterian, a few from Temple Beth-El, a few from the local Muslim community, a few from local Baptist churches, and a huge amount of people who didn't necessarily belong to any church, but who had come to show their support.

That, my friends, is community.

And I believe that for that reason, we will get through this. We will all get through this. With support and love, we can and will survive.

After the service, some of us went down to the TVUUC sanctuary for the first time since the shooting. I let the tears flow, and the healing begin.

Rest in peace, Greg McKendry.
Rest in peace, Linda Kraeger.

You were loved, and will be missed.

The sun'll come out tomorrow
So ya gotta hang on 'til tomorrow, come what may
Tomorrow! Tomorrow! I love ya, tomorrow!
You're always a day away!

Rationalist rambled: "This "Liberalism" is destroying the very foundation of Human Habitat, the core NIDUS Family structure- built on by people like Husband, wife, Children. To day this basic structure is crumbling due to "Liberal" Pseudo thesis and doctrine."

I see. So before 1960 all was well? There were no homosexuals, divorces, children out of wedlock? You vision of pre-1960 is an illusion. But what did exist pre-1960 was racism that would shock you today, legalized racism, lynchings, sexism, overt inequality and favoritism. Its a time that is kindly in our past.

Rationalist rambled: "Then what are the "weapons" the liberals are applying? They are- (1) Homosexual-ism and Gay/ Lesbian cohabitation and Marriage."

This is a "weapon" being "applied". Listen to yourself! You are claiming that liberals are choosing to live a gay lifestyle to fight a war on society. Are you mad?

Rationalist rambled: "(2) Assault on Churches and religious institutions by appointing "Gay Priests" to vitiate religious institutions in to "Religious Anarchy"."

But I thought "liberals" did not go to church, so how could they appoint anyone? Might it be that the people you respect in the church are doing this not to destroy anything but to live up to Godly ideals of equality and love?

Rationalist rambled: "(3) Legal institutions are invaded by passing Laws that allow Gays/ Lesbians have equal status and Equal right to Mary themselves, raise Children [ single mother status, adapting children by Gay couples?]."

So you don't agree with the equal protection clause of the Constitution?

Rationalist rambled: "(4) These liberals are now manipulating Medical science that " Gay-ism" has got Genetic Basis, so to be a Gay is Scientifically normal."

Hmmm, liberals "manipulating" medical science. Well, the only ones proven to have manipulated science are the republican party through their elected representatives and their appointees in NASA, EPA, etc. If you have evidence of "liberals" manipulating science please bring it forward since manipulating science is a crime against humanity IMHO.

Rationalist rambled: "(5) Even in Arm forces, these "Liberals" are trying to recruit " Homosexual Youths [ Boys and Girls] to destroy Arm force's dignity and Respectability and Its combat ability."

So homosexuals are conspiring to destroy the armed forces by joining, then working inside to destroy what they joined? Again, listen to yourself. Your conspiracy theories require a vast network and vast coordination. But your claims have no evidence. All they do is feed your hate.

Rationalist rambled: "And my personal view that any Army with its "Homosexuals" can not function optimally in War situation."

Do you think the American military in 1941 was devoid of homosexuals? Or do you think there were none back then and they just appeared in 1960? There have always been homosexuals in all cultures and have served in armed forces everywhere. Remember, some of history's best warriors were the Greeks.

Rationalist rambled: "(6) On social security benefit and Dole situations- These Liberals are asking a Special Status and privilege for Single mothers with their Offspring's, Gay couples and other Homosexuals? Because these Groups deserve Special attention of their Vulnerability and their deserved "Human Right" mandate? And for those reasons These "Homosexual" people are able to Jump the queue and grab the benefit that meant for genuinely deserved Tax-paying Citizens, are squarely deprived and thrown away in to the Gutter of Poverty Line."

Please point out the law or bill which is asking for this.

Rationalist rambled: "(7) Liberals need "Illegal Aliens", Why? These illegal Immigrants will be placed in Ghettos, given assurance of Jobs, and other social benefits to keep them alive. These Immigrants will get low paid jobs and other state sponsored Benefits [ Means snatching the moneys from that what allot ed for Genuine Native and needy People]. However these Migrant Aliens will never be allowed rise from their "Poverty Line". Because the liberals have a total control on these aliens and who in turn will Vote for their Masters- the Liberals, and these liberals will remain in "Power Line" Forever."

Well, so far it has been business owners who have benefited from illegal aliens and it has been republican administrations who have offered amnesty and/or did not enforce the laws against illegal aliens. Consider that since 2000 this nation has been under conservative republican control in the white house and both houses of Congress and during that time little has been done to enforce the immigration laws on the books. We have seen a rapid increase in illegal immigration. And Bush appointed a 35 year old to head ICE with little experience running anything. If you need to find conspiracies, look to Bush and ICE to see how illegal immigration has increased under conservatives who have profited from it.

Rationalist rambled: "Conclusion-A- I support David Atkisson for his "Rebellious Mood" but I don't agree on his method of action."

You probably also support killing abortion doctors, just not the method. Ya know, there were many in Germany in the 1930s who supported sterilizing homosexuals and removing jews, rounding them up in concentration camps, but not the killing part. Hate is a terrible thing. It leads in one direction, and I see you heading in that direction. Get a grip and stop listening to Hate TV and radio.

Rationalist rambled: "B- The time has come for us- the ordinary Citizens to resist these dangerous Liberal Agenda. If we do nothing to prevent such trend, then my friends - be assured of our Humanity's total destruction, and that will come very soon than later."

Consider that none of your fears has been the cause of the last 8 years of this nation's downward trend. Did liberals cause the 50% increase in the nation's debt? Did liberals take us to war against a country that did nothing to us? Did liberals take troops out of the country that attacked us before we finished the job? Did a liberal solicit sex in a mens bathroom? Did liberals use political litmus tests when hiring government employees against the law? You really need to sit back and see the real world my friend.

Rationalist rambled: "C- In my personal consideration- Liberals are more dangerous than "alien Terrorists", because These Liberals are the Enemy inside our Home. Logic is - You can fight Enemy- Out side in whatever of their forms, but you can not fight against a adversary

Just remember, its their house too.

willandjansdad:

Fox News has been enabling the demonization of
"Liberals" for far to long.

Complain about O'Reilly and Hannity and their contribution to this tragedy at:

yourcomments@foxnews.com

Thank you...pass it on!
_____________________________________

Better, boycott Fox News advertisers. Go to their web sites on the internet, click on "Contact Us" and let them know Americans are sick and tired of Fox's constant demonization of Liberals and Mexicans and their racist smear campaigns against Obama and his wife. Tell these advertisers they are a target of a nationwide boycot until they remove their ads from the biased and racist Fox News. Teach Murdoch, O'Reilly, Hannity et. al. not to tout the lie they are "fair and balances" when this is the farthest thing from the truth.

Take action today. Contact their advertisers. They are complicit in these murders in the name of Jesus and Ronald Reagan.

Wow, GreginNYC! You're really nostalgic for the 19th century and the days when women were completely subservient to men. Yes, giving equal rights to 1/2 of the population, that's where this country went wrong.

I submit that that backwards, sexist thinking such as yours is actually what is wrong with this country.

As for this horrible tragedy, I hope it makes people realize that political views do not solely define a person. Commenting that this incident is the fault of either liberals or conservatives is not constructive. In order to get beyond this 'culture war' we need to instead remember what unites us as human beings.

Victoria,

Thanks for mentioning one division I left out: War/Peace. If there were a draft today, especially a draft that included women, the protests against the Iraq and Afghan wars would dwarf the anti-war movement of the 60s. That movement was a watershed, but not of culture, of morality. Kent State showed that protesters risked their lives. In Washington the demonstrations took place amid tanks and soldiers and CIA taking everyone's picture. People like McCarthy, RFK, MLK, the Berrigans, and countless others who joined peace groups did not want to change the culture. They wanted to stop the war, which had become so immoral that soldiers were 'burning villages to save them.'

As for whether the country is divided now or not, I agree we are not at war literally, like the civil war. But I think there are more divisions today than north/south in the 1860s. All you have to do is look at the various lobbying groups, look at the entrenched do-nothing Congress, or ask anyone on the street if they feel the country is united. And this was not always the case as you say. The country was very united in WW2, and before that, people felt united during the Depression in helping eachother survive a bad time.

Finally, you over dramatize the opinion of those who do not agree with a gay lifestyle. Gays are not monsters or boogiemen. But some people feel it is not healthy, or natural, or moral, and does not rise to the level necessary to be given special rights, above everyone else's.

Me, "Hey, I'd just like to point out that this "Unitarian Universalism" is about as far from Christianity as Islam. Just in case some of you didn't catch that."

July 29, 2008 11:33 AM

How right you are, thank you for speaking the truth. Which, incidentally, most on this thread will detest you for based on the topic you consider truth. So be it.......it is better to speak the truth then to live a lie.

On the other hand people that have adverse actions/behaviors will *rationalize* their actions/behaviors to the point of making it their truth. Such as Gays/Lesbians are Christian, that is far from the truth and according to Romans 4 that will never happen and be considered truth.

If they were Christians they would not be engaging in same sex relationships, period. But that does not negate the fact that Christians should not treat them with any less dignity than someone else.

According to scripture Christians are instructed to be Christ-like, which is to "hate the sin and not to hate the sinner."

But Christians do not have to support Gays/Lisbians choice of living and act as if what they are doing is right. But there is a right way to pportray this and a wrong way; hatred and killing is the wrong way.

As a liberal, and a member of the Unitarian Universalist Church, I wish I could say that I am surprised or shocked by the actions of the shooter, but I am neither.

The fact is that Hannity, Limbaugh, Coulter, Savage, and the rest of their ilk, have been made into multi-millionares by "some" members of their audiences, who stand on hind legs, and salivate for every morsel of hate that they spew.

And make no mistake about it, these people go out of their way to blame every real or imagined societal ill on liberals.

And its not jut the nationally syndicated media, its also the local radio personalities, "conservative" bloggers, and their audiences.

For all the media bleating about the "hateful" Reverend Jeremiah Wright, it wasn't one of his followers that decided to pick up a gun and shoot innocents.

Frankly, I don't want to hear any excuses that the shooter was simply mentally ill, and that his feelings of hate towards liberals was simply a side effect of his mental condition.

My hypothesis is that the constant diet of hate rhetoric was the cause of his mental condition, and that there may be more of his kind out there then we want to realize.

The responses to this topic reinforce my concerns.

As an atheist, the Unitarian Universalist church is the only church I respect. They don't get hung up on the idea that we are all sinners and hell bound, but actually tackle real issues that affect real people. They accept people of all creeds and backgrounds and I consider them to be the true meaning of religious belief.

What this man did is only a manifestation of what all these right wing bigoted and shall I say christian nuts would like to do every day. Everyone who listens to Limbaugh, colter, hannity, oreilly and the rest of these bigoted and intollerant pundits get brainwashed and refuse to even think on their own. It's part of the right wing culture to let others do the thinking for you. We see it in the megachurches and we see it with media pundits.

There is a reason why liberal media has not been able to match limbaugh. Simply put, liberals generally (and with exceptions) know how to think on their own.

What this man did, is only a manifestation of what the rest would like to do. There is a whole lot of stupid out there...and mostly from the christian right wing intolerant bunch.

The next time you're listening to Rush, etc. on AM talk radio or watching Fox News, listen carefully for eliminationist rhetoric. Listen to hear if these mouth pieces for conservatism are dehumanizing liberals - comparing them to insects or vermin. Listen to hear if they make 'jokes' about 'getting rid' of people who disagree with them. Think about whether the radio talkers and Fox News talking heads are engaging in a debate - advocating ideas and conversing with people they disagree with - or whether they're inciting anger at and hostility to the sub-human 'other.'

Is it any wonder that things like this happen when Anne Coulter, best selling writer, radio host and Fox News commentator says "I think a baseball bat is the most effective way these days" to engage with a liberal...

Why do Rush Limpbaugh, Sean Hannity, Micheal Savage and the Republican party hate America? The answer is their egos! The minute that a constitutional amendment requiring "liberals" to wear a yellow Star of David on their chests passes into law, they would still be unhappy, because the ego always wants more and more to be happy "at some future point". They'd start in on the Jews or Blacks or some other minority of opportunity... These reactionaries hate anything they or their ego cannot identify with, so they will hate your free speech, when you disagree with them, and they hate people who don't look, act, and think like they do. This same garbage was foisted upon America in the 1950s, by the same old live-in-the-past Republican party, only with a few different names, Robert Taft, Joe McCarthy, etc. It is a real shame that we have to live thru the '50s all over again, just because of a few unimaginative, unintelligent Republicans... The shooter was apparently pretty mentally unbalanced to start with, and after being fed a steady diet of propaganda directed it toward "liberals". I'm in favor of having irresponsible hate rhetoric taken off of mass radio or TV, and I think most of the reactionary AM radio idiots should be taken off the air, or forced to give equal time to the other side. There used to be laws about radio and TV stations serving in the public interest, and I think these program do nothing for the public interest. The owners of these stations should be hauled before a judge to explain why they allow this biased propaganda to ooze into the airways of our country.

O'Reilly, Savage and Hannity deserve some of the blame for the shooting, not because they are conservatives but because they are demagogues. The shooter was almost certainly looking for someone to blame for his problems, and this made him vulnerable to the demagogues' rhetoric about wolves at the door and enemies in our midst. The commentators didn't cause his mindset, but they certainly gave it a defining narrative. If the shooter could have latched onto liberal demagogues such as Al Sharpton, he might have chosen a different target.

Hate comes in all shapes and forms, and from both directions on the political and social spectrums.

By catagorizing this man as a "right wing nut job," one would only sink (close) to his level. We can, without a doubt, say he was sick and struggling with his own personal demons that affected his judgement. He was not instructed to kill by any radio talk show host or pundit. Should we blame gang warfare on video games? Obesity on fast food resturants? Cancer on tabacco companies?

No. People make choices, be they good or bad.

Unfortuately for those brutally murdered, Adkisson made a choice with horrific consequenses.

"He was not instructed to kill by any radio talk show host or pundit."

I agree in part. He was looking for someone to kill or at least hurt. The pundits simply provided him with targets.

8 lives will be snuffed out in Knoxville today, under the protection of the U.S. Supreme Court. If Obama were in charge (based on his record in Illinois), even those children who happen to survive the abortion would be killed or left to die. To whom should I ascribe this horrific carnage?

When I was a junior in High School in the late 1970s I read Vincent Bugolsi's "Helter Skelter", his account of his prosecution of the Manson family for the Sharon Tate murders. I mentioned to someone that Bugolsi reported Manson believed that the Beatles were communicating with him in one of their songs and telling him to kill people.

"That proves tha rock and roll is evil and results in terible things, " was the response I got from this comment.
This column,in a much more eloquent way, seems to be making the same bad argument- conservative beliefs and those that publically espouse them are the cause of these murders. Limbaugh and Hannity are no more responsible for these murders than Lennon and McCarthy were responsible for Charlie Manson.
The shooter is responsible for this crime, just as Manson was for his. John Lennon wasn't guilty of inciting Manson and neither are conservatives like me guilty of what this guy did.
Tom Funk

What a joke to blame Rush Limbaugh, Hannity or whoever for this shooting. This guy (the shooter) was just a idiot whack job. He's not conservative. Or a Christian.

It's the liberals who are the "blame America First' crowd, who are embarrassed by our country's greatness and resent our riches. They're the ones who are the 'haters'. They seek to tear down every traditional institution in this country. They rant against "big oil" "big pharm & big health care", "big retail", "big defense contractor" or whatever the bogeyman is that particular day. They're against new oil drilling, new oil refineries, new nuclear power plants, new coal fired plants and seek to dictate every part out lives through the hoax of man-made global warming. Liberals constantly push the politics of class warfare....indeed they need those classes and interest groups to remain as their bases of power. Where would Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton be without all the hatred? The Democrat Party itself in a compilation of disparate nuts and extremist groups, from the NOW gang to the Gay gang to the permanently dependent blacks (90% + loyalty! wow, independent thinking going on there!).

The Unitarian church is hardly a church at all. It denies the exclusive claims of Christ. Millions of conservative (and even the liberal!) Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, and on and on would dismiss the Unitarian church as false pretenders. Yet, one whack job commits an atrocity and so there's an effort to link this crazed man with Orthodox Christianity. How ignorant so many of you are. And the effort to link Limbaugh and the rest is just laughable.

You have no credibility.

Here is one website listing Fox News sponsors:
http://www.truthnews.us/?p=1513

I'm never going into a BestBuy again until they stop sponsoring hate speach. I'm contacting American Express to discontinue my card because they sponsor distortions. And I'll never buy the products from companies that sponsor the hate and lies expressed on Fox News.

Boycotts proved very effective in the 1960s. Remember how the bus boycott in Montgomery AL changed history. The iceberg lettuce boycott made the lives of farm workers better. Boycotts can be just as effective today.

Do the right thing. Boycott Fox News sponsors.

I wondered why there so very many conservative commentors on this blog topic, until I thought about the old saying: Dogs don't bark until you get close to home.

The very fact so many are here defending themselves tells us something.

If this killer wasn't influenced by the modern conservative hate movement, then why the passionate rebuttals?

Mike,

How about taking the blinders off, eh? Let me see if I get this right.

You're upset because the more highly rated/listened to talk shows are right leaning, pro-republican in nature. Your socialist/democratic mentality is to either remove these shows completely or force stations to offer equal time to left leaning, pro-democrat opinions? I see.

Funny, I don't hear you whining that 70%+ of our university and college professors are liberals. Or the fact that everything political that comes out of Hollywood is left wing, liberal rhetoric.

But I guess you only believe things should be "fair and equal" when your getting the short end of the stick, huh? Give me a break.

Tom Funk,

Manson heard words that were not there. His delusions warped words and changed meanings. Manson claimed the song "Revolution" called for revolution, but the words of the song are against revolution. (But if you want people with minds that hate, all I can tell you is brother you'll have to wait)

Adkisson heard the words perfectly. His reasons for the killings are exactly what Fox News and the books written by its commentators have stated as "problems" in this country.

A very bad comparison Tom.

Boycott Fox News sponsors.

Do you people think before you post? A crazed man shot up a church full of kids, and all you can say is that they somehow deserved it because they weren't "Christian" enough for you? You people scare me.

I think, you have to admit that alot of the right wing commentators ar pretentious, snooty, snobby, stuck-up, superior, authoritarian, kooks.

It's always been that way. One who thinks he is "conservative" (Bin Ladin) kills the other who is ultra liberal (New Yorkers). History is just repeating itself and it won't end until both "conservative" and liberals perish.

In WW3 , the liberal states (gay marriage states) will burn just like Sodom and Gomorrah. It's always been that way. History will repeat itself.

Ah, the power of religion.

Regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.

All praise be to the giant sky fairy!

Adults need imaginary friends too. Apparently.

Brambleton is bitter because "70%+ of our university and college professors are liberals ..."

Conservative people do not go into academia as much a liberal people do, and that is just how it all plays out.

Why be bitter about it? It's life.

Too much bitterness could make a man go crazy.

With the possible exception of the gunfire, I'd say this guy is an admirable conservative, according to the standards being set by conservatives today. He's just practicing what they're preaching.

This country was founded on liberalism.
The very idea of rule by "We The People" IS a liberal idea.

We the People are considered the riff raff by conservatives.

"As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality."

George Washington

You all make me sick.

I never thought I would see the day that christians would champion a mass murderer.

This Religious Reich Repuke had books in his house.

Books by Junkie Rush Limbaugh, Sean Insannity, Bill PervOreilly, and Michael Savage Weiner.

I didn't hear if he had any books by Mann Coulter, but he probably had a pinup of "her", showing the infamous Adam's Apple.

ReichWingnut Radio blowhards like these have POISONED this country. They preach HATRED of those eeevil librrrruls, gays, and minorities.

I blame THEM for this guy going off.

I see no liberal has attempted to refute my arguments about their typical "Blame America First" mindset or the notion that the Unitarian "church" is not a church...or that the crazed shooter in no way represents Orthodox Christianity.

Titus, you're comment "you all make me sick" is pretty amazing. I'll try to cogitate the depth of your point.....there, all done.
I guess my rejoinder is "can't we all get along?" Does that make it better, Titus?

Thanks liberals, you do make for boring discussions. But have fun bashing mean ole' Rush Limbaugh......

I see no liberal has attempted to refute my arguments about their typical "Blame America First" mindset or the notion that the Unitarian "church" is not a church...or that the crazed shooter in no way represents Orthodox Christianity.

Titus, you're comment "you all make me sick" is pretty amazing. I'll try to cogitate the depth of your point.....there, all done.
I guess my rejoinder is "can't we all get along?" Does that make it better, Titus?

Thanks liberals, you do make for boring discussions. But have fun bashing mean ole' Rush Limbaugh......

You Religious Reich "Christians" are all PSYCHOTICS.

I predict more of these violent incidents as your hatred takes you over to the Dark Side.

And even if Junkie Rush et al did not directly tell their idiot listeners to kill eeevil librrruls, they told you to HATE us for over a decade.

Who Would Jesus Murder?

Screw you, phony "Christians".

YOU are the ones who will burn in HELL, not us.

I'm not sure why this is a story. The shooting just sounds like typical Republican behavior to me. Usually the Republicans murder other Americans by appointing industry lobbyists to run the EPA, FDA, etc. and destroying all of the regulations that protect our health and safety. Shooting people is a little more direct, but the outcome is the same.

Titus wrote: "I never thought I would see the day that christians would champion a mass murderer."

Christians championed Constantine who spread christianity by the sword. And its been downhill from there.

I laugh when I hear christians describe Mohammed as a murder who slayed non-muslims (quite true) while they ignore Constantine's mass murder, the church imposed "dark ages" with its inquisitions and torture, etc.

Its not reality of hate and murder that matters, its all about the illusion of peace and love. And Christians wonder why atheists consider them delusional.

Robert B wrote: "I see no liberal has attempted to refute my arguments about their typical "Blame America First" mindset or the notion that the Unitarian "church" is not a church...or that the crazed shooter in no way represents Orthodox Christianity."

That's because these questions have nothing to do with someone opening fire on people watching children in a play. But evidently you DO think it is relevant. Why?

The Unitarian Universalist Church IS A CHURCH.

In fact, both the Unitarians and Universalists started out as Christian heretics who rejected the trinity and rejected the concept of Hell.

Over a century, they grew up and out of being stuck with Christian dogma.

Anybody who says Unitarians are not a church is a lying, bigoted buttwipe who is probably the next shooter we will see on the news.

You Religious Reich Repukes are wrong again as usual.

Robert B:

You've made the assumption that I'm one of "them". You don't know me or my views, and so you act like a roaring devouring lion.

Can we talk about the guy who stood in front of the killer and saved the lives of the children in the church?

That's what a christian should be. That's a real hero!

The biblically chronicled life style of Jesus has always seemed to me to be of an "off-normal" character, especially for its era when Jewish social conformance was rigorously enforced, to say the least. To hang out with a monastic group of long haired, dysfunctional guys depicted in later Renaissance art in pastel nightgowns, having no apparent source of sustenance other than possible family derived welfare, inheritance or similar and generally devoid of feminine companionship, seems somewhat weird.

I wonder what the good 'ole boys in "Junior's" rural Texas would conclude it this bunch blew into town today. Would they be welcomed or instantly diagnosed as "queers" and dragged to death behind a gas guzzling pick up truck?

Robert B

The very tone of your comments on this thread demonstrates perfectly the rude haughtiness of conservatives in their attitudes towards their fellow Americans.

Many conservatives have a sense of entitled superiority, that just naturally bubbles over into religious predjusdice, racism, homophobia, and a sense that all "inferior" people should either get out of the way, or somehow, be gotten rid of.

OK, Greg: (A response from yesterday when the site was down, here, we seem to be hearing people insisting upon these sentiments)

"Thats what Liberalism is all about, turning the government into everyone's father and husband.
MEN should be responsible for the well-being of women and children not govt."

Ah, and this shooter did a heck of a job looking out for our well-being, eh? From what some of the conservatives say here, that's even what they think. All about 'family values' and go ahead and shoot up families.

Liberalism is *about,* for one thing, people not losing their food stamps when the *conservatives* put a trucker out of business cause they'd rather deny global warming and therefore not listen about the oil prices thing.

"FAMILY should be the champion and protector of women and children, not the police and not welfare."

Yeah? Where was this guy's family? At the UU? Or waiting for him to get home with the shotgun and blame the 'liberals' for *what he might do then,* too?

"Women no longer respect men's authority, and men no longer feel a responsibility to protect women."

Is that why a neocon shot up a bunch of women and children because he lost his food stamps during a benefit-cutting conservative administration,and blamed 'liberals?'

Is that caring for families and women and children?

Did 'liberals make him do that,' or is it the victims' fault in you guys' minds for not 'respecting his authority?'

Did 'liberals' 'make' the corporations export all the real jobs, or was that something else?

If the government isn't supposed to help families, you conservatives have no one to blame but yourselves for your families disintegrating under your own senses of entitlement to power you obviously can't handle.

So happens I rather like strong men, too, (and strong women) But merely having swinging parts don't *entitle* you to unquestioned authority, never mind to shoot up a UU church during a childrens' play cause you feel it's OK to push the blame for your own failures off on innocents.

Did you see that Tom3 said "Mann" Coulter MANN Coulter!! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! Get it?? Like she's a man!! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

He also said "Butt wipe" ooooooooo!!! And "Perv O'Rielly" Then started ranting about who's going to Hell.

Neato stuff Tommy3, you are locked and loaded for the lunch table at middle school this year!! Remember, 2012 (or is it 2016) and you can cast your first vote!! Though you are obviously not much older than a crumb-cruncher, you are a fine rep of the Dem. Party. Keep it up!

Can't wait to hear you talk about "poo-poo or doo-doo" next.

"The shooting just sounds like typical Republican behavior to me. Usually the Republicans murder other Americans by appointing industry lobbyists to run the EPA, FDA, etc. and destroying all of the regulations that protect our health and safety. Shooting people is a little more direct, but the outcome is the same."

EXCELLENT comment. A sugar refinery blew up and 13 people were killed. The owner faces fines, but those people are still dead.

Why did this happen? Chimpy's OSHA, which has been filled with cronies, has REFUSED to promulgate a standard for explosive dusts.

You would not think sugar and other commodities like wheat can EXPLODE but they can. All you need is fine dust, the right fuel-air mix, and a spark.

The REPUKES killed those 13 people, as sure as if they had shot them.

Fate:

Robert B wrote: "I see no liberal has attempted to refute my arguments about their typical "Blame America First" mindset or the notion that the Unitarian "church" is not a church...or that the crazed shooter in no way represents Orthodox Christianity."

-----

"Orthodox Chrisianity" is Rovespeak for hateful, exclusinve, right-wing neochritians. Neochritianity is not Christianity. These ignorant bigots ignore the love of Christ and chose instead to cherry-pick Leviticus (except verse 19:33 of course) to manipulate the masses for their political agendas by scaring them with eternal damnation.

God does not fry his babies in hell. This manipulation is not God but rather the tool of Satan. Neochristians are the true Satanists and these murders in Tennessee is the evidence this is true.

Robert B. must think it is okay to walk into a church with a shotgun and murder people.

Mann Coulter really DOES have an Adam's Apple. This has been a matter of discussion on the Internet for years now. Pay attention.

And PervOReilly got caught sexually harassing his assistant. O'Reilly likes to use vibrators on himself. Typical Reperv. (Republican Pervert)

BTW, Rupert Murdoch paid $10 MILLION to make PervOReilly's case go away.

You can try to discount my opinions by calling me childish, but my opinions are always based on FACTS...unlike yours.

“I like your Christ,
I do not like your Christians.
Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

Mohandas Gandhi

We now know that the church shooter was a Reich Wingnut Repuke and was influenced by the HATE SPEECH spewing out of his radio from the likes of Junkie Rush Limbaugh and PervOreilly.

Why are these guys still on the air anyway?

Junkie Rush weaseled out of drug charges that would have put ANY of us in prison.

PervOreilly weaseled out of a sex harassment charge that would have gotten ANY of us fired.

IOKIYAR - Its Okay If You're A Repuke.

Repukes want to regulate our behavior 24-7 but give their people a free pass to break laws.

But they're good "Christians" so they get forgiven.

Used to be when you told lies and falsehoods about people, it was called libel. Now it's talk radio and necon "opinion."

The Nazis spread lies and hate too. Of course, Ann Coulter admires such people.

Those who seek to divide America do not belong in America.

" Titus:

"Can we talk about the guy who stood in front of the killer and saved the lives of the children in the church?

"That's what a christian should be. That's a real hero!"

Certainly, that's a real human being. Of course, we're seeing a lot of the conservative dodge here: 'That man didn't shoot up a church cause I don't consider the UU to be a church, cause they 'aren't Christians.'

Which is apparently just the kind of demonization so many conservatives need to 'blame liberals for everything,' and use such threats and violence when they feel like it.

Some UU's aren't Christians, maybe, but many are. Certainly, the UU is an institution I have a lot of affection for and agree with, and they're very welcoming of a great diversity, (I'd probably be a member, myself if I didn't have comfort issues with even that much Christianity and 'Churchiness' in my 'prayer-space:' just too many bad memories. ) ...they're good and thoughtful and sincere people.

It's not their fault they're among the targets of some obfuscating conservatives' 'Culture War,' or 'Spiritual War' or whatever darn 'war' they want to use to justify their carefully-cultivated hatred.

Personally, I say if it's church enough for a man to take a shotgun blast for, it's church enough to respect, and support as Americans rather than insult and terrorize, particularly in their time of grief. They don't deserve to be terrorized.

I've been warning that the hateful rhetoric could result in things like this, haven't I?

Time to bring some sanity back to the discussion before anyone *else* gets hurt.

"
TITUS:

Can we talk about the guy who stood in front of the killer and saved the lives of the children in the church?

That's what a christian should be. That's a real hero!"

---Yes - could we get away from the scatology and adolescent name calling and have real discourse? The guy who protected those kids gave his life for the vulnerable - that is a higher love, no matter whether he was a liberal or conservative, politically.

There is an element of society that is not in touch with reality, and they are very prone to being "persuaded" by the vile hyperbole of others - witness the atrocities committed at both ends of the political spectrum.

When we start killing one another - or provoking others to - because of our identity, we have fallen prey to serious sinfulness, in the religious view, and serious sociopathy in the view of the secularist.

That would help, but it's not their job to end the culture war. We all started it. We're all responsible for what we say, write and do that increases hostility towards liberals or conservatives or any group of people whose beliefs differ from ours.

Obviously, there was a lot more going on inside the Knoxville shooter's head, heart and soul than hatred of liberals. Police said his ex-wife once was a member of that church, that he was having trouble finding a job, and that his food stamps had been cut.

Angry, hateful and deranged people kill Amish school girls and Virginia college students and shoppers at a Nebraska mall. They kill Christians, Jews and Muslims, atheists and humanists, conservative and liberals, Republicans and Democrats, unitarians and trinitarians.

But there's a whole lotta ugly out there, coming at us from a never-ending parade of stupid. It doesn't need any encouragement.
------------------------

Frankly, IMHO, a huge share of responsibility goes to the media, and not merely to the hate jocks you mention. Coverage of the Democratic primary was virtually nonexistent with respect to issues. Instead we got hate speech from respected journalists at a depth and breadth hitherto unimaginable from the NY Times, TV media, etc.

WaPo in recent years is often a joke as it trades populism for ethical reporting, caters to the big business that owns it by using euphemisms like "downsizing," and, in all ways, talking down to the likes of people like Mr. Adkisson, and the same is true of the Times, TV and radio "journalism." Who doesn't talk down to men like him? The mem he listened to.

As well, guns kill people. It is likely that if Mr. Adkisson didn't have a gun, he wouldn't have done the damage he did.

Tom3, "The Unitarian Universalist Church IS A CHURCH"

The church is a just building; Christianity is in the heart of a person. According to scripture you are not a Christian unless you accept Christ; here are the following scriptures for a reference,

John 3:2-6 (2)"He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him. (3)In reply Jesus declared, I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. (4)How can a man be born when he is old? Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born! (5)Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. (6)Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. (7)You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.'

John 3:16-21, "(16)For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (17)For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. (18)Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. (19)This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. (20)Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. (21)But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

It is not Christians that "condemn non-believers, it is God.

I do have to beg to differ on the notion 'we all started the 'Culture war,' ...this was declared and prosecuted by conservatives, conservative Christians in particular.... who choose to see the mere existence of people different from them, of course, as an 'attack' of some undefined sort on 'their values.'

If they don't value others as we are, that's their problem, and it's not our fault for existing and not-obeying their presumption they should be the masters.

But that's how they operate: claim gay people want 'special rights' when they want equal treatment, and then there's the spurious notion one conservative poster said here that 'gays are taking your food stamps: here, blame gays who don't even *have* said equal treatment yet, not the food-stamp-cutting people you voted for when you were employed and thought poor people were lazy scum...'

It may seem a 'matter of opinion' and 'free speech' to promote such lies and illogic ...until someone who *believes you* has a bad day.

Our former brethren from across the aisle want it all back the way it was when they were growing up. Women and the coloreds who know their place. No abortion. No contraceptives. Gays in a closet inside a closet or dead. Church every Sunday. A fedora on every white man's head to go with the mandatory suit of clothes, necktie, white dress shirt, socks on suspenders, and wingtips. And behavior prescribed by conservative social convention. Women wear long white gloves, a dress, pearls, a hat with a veil, and sensible shoes, when they aren't cleaning the baked-on drips out of the oven or scraping the built up floor wax and grease out of the kitchen corners. Men snicker at how stupid women are. Women fulfill their roles by acting stupid to please men. This is absolute Heaven to our betters in the Ultra Conservative ranks. When we object, all heck breaks loose. It is WE who are nuts, they insist.

There is so much judging and hatred spewed on this thread against the killer and Christians that it makes me sick.

Most of you talk about being treated fairly and having equal rights but you **practice** just the opposite. It is no wonder Christians look away from people that practice hatred, being judgmental, and hypocrisy and look to those that are accepting, non-judgmental, and kind instead.

Anonymous wrote: "It is not Christians that "condemn non-believers, it is God."

And its not mommy who leaves the quarter under your pillow and takes the tooth, its the Tooth Fairy.

When did God, in His own words, condemn non-believers?

Anonymous said:
"It is not Christians that "condemn non-believers, it is God.

Anonymous,
It is only Your opinion that:

- There is a god who condemns non-believers.

- That YOU are the right kind of believer.

Other religions consider YOU a non-believer.

"It is not Christians that "condemn non-believers, it is God."

You keep saying that, but God didn't go buy that shotgun, load it up, and blast away at 'nonbelievers.'

Condemning people and then saying, 'It's not me doing this, it's really *God* ' Well, that isn't goodness, is it?

I think it's something else.

"It is not Christians that "condemn non-believers, it is God."

So, because the UUs weren't your definition of "Christian", it makes it okay for a lunatic to shoot them?

What's next? Is it now open season on "libruls"?

Lets be clear about God. Jesus is the son of the father, not the being called God.

The bible is a corrupted book.

Exodus 20:21 (King James Version)

And the people stood afar off, and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was.

1 John 1:5 (King James Version)

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Yes, I am a gnostic. Orthdoxy kills because they worship the Demiurge, not the Father.

"I see no liberal has attempted to refute my arguments about their typical "Blame America First" mindset or the notion that the Unitarian "church" is not a church...or that the crazed shooter in no way represents Orthodox Christianity."

Robert B --

Maybe no liberal thinks your "arguments" are worth refuting. That's the most likely explanation.

Lover of the Texan's ways wrote: "Most of you talk about being treated fairly and having equal rights but you **practice** just the opposite. It is no wonder Christians look away from people that practice hatred, being judgmental, and hypocrisy and look to those that are accepting, non-judgmental, and kind instead."

Christians are non-judgemental!!!
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Who is saying people are going to hell for what they think? Christians or non-believers? Do you consider that non-judgemental? Do you consider the "christians" at Fox News who spewed the hatred that drove this man to murder to be "kind"?

I suggest you take a hard look at the real world. This lunatic was able to obtain a gun and kill people based on what he heard on Fox News. Something is very wrong here and its not with non-believers.

"It is no wonder Christians look away from people that practice hatred, being judgmental, and hypocrisy and look to those that are accepting, non-judgmental, and kind instead."

Oh, you mean like... Unitarians? Unitarians are the most loving, compassionate, and accepting people that I've encountered. The irony of the situation is that, if Adkinson would have asked the UU church for help, they would have given it to him freely - regardless of his beliefs or ideology.

FATE, try this

"Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

John 3:18

Magpie, no, more likely is they can't. Like you couldn't.

"The guy who protected those kids gave his life for the vulnerable - that is a higher love, no matter whether he was a liberal or conservative, politically."

Actually, the guy's action was probably more instinctive than love-based. But the fact that he was there and did what he did is something to be grateful for.

robert B wrote: "FATE, try this:
"Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
John 3:18

I asked for when God *in-his-own-words* comdemned non-believers. Your quote is by someone named John.

What religious fundamentalists of all stripes don't seem to understand is that you can't win an argument by quoting that which you're seeking to prove. Quoting the Bible (or the Koran or any holy book) to bolster your claims about the infallibility of scripture is just circular reasoning.

Quoting scripture to others is simply telling them what you believe. It does nothing whatsoever to affect what they believe.

And pressing the argument that "it's true 'cause it's in the Bible" is the most impotent effort of all. You may believe anything you wish, as hard as you want, but that won't make it true for anyone except you.

"Our former brethren from across the aisle want it all back the way it was when they were growing up. Women and the coloreds who know their place. No abortion. No contraceptives. Gays in a closet inside a closet or dead. Church every Sunday. A fedora on every white man's head..."

Well, Bluetwo, could be there's some wriggle room on the hats. I think people should wear more hats. :)

Maybe just dress a little better in general: this sounds pretty frivolous, but *actually,* just maybe some folks would feel a little better if we adopted some of the social and sartoial niceties. Conservatives have a tendency to be ruled by this vague notion that things are 'out of control' ...particularly for the men, who kind of 'don't know what to do,' .... they blame and want to roll back the feminism and social progress, but I think on a more personal level, they tend to be 'lost.'

It's a sign of a declining civilization when *civility and manners* go out the window (Sez the old punkette, I know, but what I say here is actually much based in seeing how subcultures can develop their own proprieties and manners, and how this can enhance cohesion between, even people who disagree.) ...it's not about people being gay or not-oppressing-each other... Just manners. Civility. An atmosphere of respect, rather than competitive identity-politics and sort of a corporate fashion that seems based more on 'who can afford better' than that *self-expression* we all love.

Maybe we'd all be a bit more comfortable if we wore more hats. Really, *reinterpret* the old manners and habits for a more egalitarian world.

There was the rather widely-mocked 'Metrosexual' fadlet: that had hints of, in particular, men taking a bit of pride in their appearance, and I think, manners. I think it's time the boys stopped running around feeling bereft by women's lib and social progress and start *living* with it.

Again, this seems pretty frivolous, but attending to appearance is a ritual of *self-respect* as well as toward others, ...little rituals of social politeness may seem trivial or archaic, but it's better than feeling we must battle to control each others' ideas and beliefs just to live together.

So people should wear more hats. :)

magie wrote: Actually, the guy's action [taking the bullets for the kids] was probably more instinctive than love-based. But the fact that he was there and did what he did is something to be grateful for."

Agreed. The man is a hero. Heros do tend to act on instinct. It is careful thought that hold many back from heroic action since we humans can contemplate death, which can overcome our instincts.

"You shall not murder." - God
Exodus 20:13

Robert B.

Unlike anything else said here, God did say explicitly and in God's own words that you shall not murder. It's one of the ten commandments FROM GOD. There is no way to justify murder of anyone, liberals, conservatives, muslims, jews, anyone.

It is against God's own word.

Kevin

"A Whole Lotta Ugly" in Church Shooting... and in here, too.

Religious Reich Repukes once again show they are NOT real Christians and NOT good Americans.

I predict MORE of these shootings. These idiot Repukes have been pumped full of HATE by their talk radio, and yes, by their PASTORS.

Disgusting. Un-Christian. Un-American.

But then, these are the guys who gave us TORTURE AND TREASON.

Hey Kevin:

What kind of a God makes a rule that you cannot murder, and then also makes attainment of salvation dependent upon mankind murdering his son? Kind of a catch 22 there, don't you think?

"You cannot do this, but the only way you can be saved from the fires of hell is if you do what I say you cannot do."

Who says religion isn't nonsense?

Dear Kevin B

I am not saying that you're crazy; certainly the rules of decorum are more relaxed on a blog than in real life, and you can get away with alot more on a blog than in real life.

But Bible-quoting at a time like this seems to be edging a little towards "mainia." Even if you are not suffering from delusional religious mainia, but are just trying to push the envelope of acceptable blog behavior, don't you want to be thought of as more than just someone who seeks to "get away" with bad behavior?

" Fate:

""magie wrote: Actually, the guy's action [taking the bullets for the kids] was probably more instinctive than love-based. But the fact that he was there and did what he did is something to be grateful for."

"Agreed. The man is a hero. Heros do tend to act on instinct. It is careful thought that hold many back from heroic action since we humans can contemplate death, which can overcome our instincts."

I'll agree here, too. I won't call it *cowardice,* but in my experience, people who think death is a once-and-forever judgement on their opinions tend to freeze up at danger, unless they teach themselves otherwise. Or they let instinct take over.

I don't think the fact that it's rarely an evaluated choice to respond so makes it any less 'heroic,' I think it's flowing with the fact that our instincts show a powerful, inherent *goodness* to people, not an inherent *badness.*

Sometimes what we teach ourselves, sadly, can get in the way of that, but I've been in enough messed-up situations to see that inherent goodness, ...and when it comes, it comes like a flash, like the next breath, if we make of ourselves a welcome and rightful home for it.

Things like that happen *fast,* ...it's not about making a decision based on belief, right then, it's about decisions you already made.

I meant Robert B, not Kevin B. (my apologies)

When people quote verses at me, I hit back with some of my own choice quotes in rebuke. Sorry if I came off preachy.

John T. Worth is the other hero. The first I mentioned is Greg McKendry.

John T. Worth, a unitarian, served his country in the armed forces.

The children were singing "The sun will come out tomorrow".

My two cents...

"The children were singing "The sun will come out tomorrow".

*making a little reverence.*

So it will.

Terrorism. Let's call this by its real name. Can you imagine the national furor if a "Muslim," rather than a "Christian," had committed these murders? I use the quotation marks because no person who commits such actions has a legitimate claim to either faith.

Umm... maybe this guy was just a whacko and his actions have no greater applicability. I remember reading recently about a woman who threw her 3 children in the ocean for being possessed by devils. Does that reflect poorly on everyone who believes in devils? No, it just mean a diseased mind seized on a particular thought and used it to create a reason for doing something crazy.

This guy was a whacko. His actions do not reflect on society at large. Other whackos are fixating on his actions and using them as an excuse to spout hatred at the people he claimed to represent.

"Umm... maybe this guy was just a whacko and his actions have no greater applicability. I remember reading recently about a woman who threw her 3 children in the ocean for being possessed by devils. Does that reflect poorly on everyone who believes in devils?"

Yes. People who believe in devils ought to find a way not to croak their children, or teach the mentally-ill it's a good idea.

Same thing if you make 'devils' of liberals or Unitarians-as-non-Christians, call it an 'isolated incident' every time the media barrage results in something horrible, ....and keep demonizing the nice folks down the UU.

GregInNYC wrote:
"That's what Liberalism is all about, turning the government into everyone's father and husband.MEN should be responsible for the well-being of women and children not govt.
FAMILY should be the champion and protector of women and children, not the police and not welfare.Women no longer respect men's authority, and men no longer feel a responsibility to protect women."
Women don't need men to protect them , they need men who treat them with as much respect and dignity as men wish to be treated. The problem is that men had a government of their own imposed on their wives for ages. When feminism came along and demanded equal rights and more importantly women fought for better jobs and wages, suddenly that "authoritarian" figure within the patriarchal family got threatened. Male chauvinists did not like the new role of partnership in female and male unions. Now just like this shooter, disgruntled men blame liberalism for this erosion of power. The reality is that globalization has a bigger influence in why the male figure is no longer as powerful as it once was. Now the global economy have forced them to lower wages, and as a consequence a more egalitarian relationship with their "equally paid" hard working wives. My suggestion to this commentator is to take a time capsule and go back in time. Globalization and egalitarian relationships between the sexes are here to stay. So long as men with your type of mentality walk this earth we will be needing protection from police and government. Anyway, this man's rants give further evidence to the premise of this article that there's a whole lotta ugly out there, coming at us from a never-ending parade of stupid.

Paganplace, I haven't demonized anyone and I resent the implication.

My point is that when a whacko goes off like this and claims some sort of grand political justification for his actions people use it as an excuse to vilify whatever political movement he claims he represented.

By doing that, they become guilty of exactly the same sort of thing.

See below for examples.

Fate stated, "I suggest you take a hard look at the real world. This lunatic was able to obtain a gun and kill people based on what he heard on Fox News."

I'm almost speechless.

"was able to obtain a gun" - this is liberal claptrap for blame the NRA and conservatives for selling guns. Why should we blame the shooter when we can point fingers at someone else? Perhaps Fate would also approve revoking every single driver's license because the possibility exists that at least one driver will drink and drive?

"kill people based on what he heard on Fox News" - again, the denial of appropriate responsibility is staggering. Apparently, it's not the shooter's fault, it's FOX News. Are you kidding me? We've sunk to an all time low, "The NEWS made me do it!"

Paganplace:

"The children were singing "The sun will come out tomorrow".

Sidebar: a friend of mine was involved in the original B'way production of Sondheim's "Sweeney Todd." Apparently, Sondheim was no fan of Charles Strouse and loathed his musical, "Annie."

Sondheim made his point by quoting the tune from "Tomorrow" at the point in Mrs Lovett's "The Worst Pies in London" where she sings: "Is that just revolting? All greasy and gritty? It looks like it's molting! And tastes like...we'll pity. A woman alone.."

;)

I'll tell you this, Zzim.

I've probably *forgotten* more about bad spirits and bad medicine than most folks will ever mischance to know. People who believe there's an implacable evil that they must 'fight' (...at any cost, lest they be punished eternally by, guess what... Devils....) through expressions of 'fear of devils' or convenient human surrogates for such, are really the ones to worry about.

They're self-righteous masters of taking a tiny bit of fear or other negative emotion, then amplifying it till something really ugly happens. Then they say it's 'Proof' of the 'good and evil war' in the first place. And they say that 'good and evil war' is more important than life itself.

You think every time some maniac or exploiter gets hold of a book on 'Spells' and decides to use Christian Fundies' 'satanic conspiracy' scares or Faustian ideas of human power, that someone don't end up coming gunning for some tree-huggers, who are trying to teach something very different? Guess who gets to deal. Not the 'mighty' people who treat guns as righteous talismans, but regular folk who know it's just a tool to put holes in people. We

You bet things 'reflect' on religions, ideologies, or the things we teach ourselves and each other., justly or not, in any given case.

In this case, demonizing other humans as somehow magically-responsible for conservative policies for ...not saying gay people are fit to be blown away over failed policies, may just have resulted directly in someone deciding he ought to blow away some 'liberals' cause conservatives cost him his job and then cut his food stamps.

We *are* responsible for what we teach. You can't teach demonization and 'righteous hatred and might' and then expect to dodge accountability when the results of people *thinking exactly how you teach* aren't what you would like.

Even if you don't like how it reflects when a 'bitter' man in fact clings to guns and religious war.

Yes, we're all responsible. This also means we can do better. Let's do better.

'Devils' have only the power we give them. That's the real trick with 'bad spirits.'

And *that's* the biggest lie your Devil ever told. Saying he existed. Then all 'he' had to do was toss the first pebble.

The rest is done by *people.*

Brambletone said:

"Perhaps Fate would also approve revoking every single driver's license because the possibility exists that at least one driver will drink and drive?"

This argument doesn't make any sense.

I think your anger over this matter is making your say strange things. You're not defending the guy's right to shoot liberals, are you?

"Apparently, it's not the shooter's fault, it's FOX News. Are you kidding me? We've sunk to an all time low, "The NEWS made me do it!""

Oh, *he* did it, of course, ...but why he wrote four pages of explaining why he thought he'd get *approval* for it.... Where in the worlds did he get *that* idea?

One thing I have noticed is that conservatives are much more likely to be sheep. Your average "conservative" gets his or her news and opinions from Fox, which, like it or not, promotes hatred AND violence. These "conservatives" are at least as dangerous as any other terrorist organization. Consider, in recent weeks a Fox News morning show host compared his purchase of a pet monkey to adopting black children. Fox commentators regularly make the claim that liberals are actively seeking to destroy the country and advocate violence against liberals. You will see a lot of stuff like this reflected in comments on the Fix or other forums on the Post. I've never seen a post from a liberal threatening to kill McCain or some Fox News "talent" but threats from posters about shooting Obama or killing a major network news anchor have become so common place as to pass notice.

The current McCain attack campaign is coming very close to crossing this line. At times it has crossed it. That campaign has accused Obama of treason, of aiding the enemy, of being responsible for the high cost of oil, of not visiting wounded troops (and, although NOT reported, the commander of the German hospital was a McCain supporter who purposefully sandbagged Obama, and Obama *telephoned* individual troops for some two hours at that base anyways), of being a black radical, etc.

Now, I have two sons who have served in Iraq. The younger one was *AT* the Landstuhl hospital, being treated for wounds he suffered when the Bradley he was riding in was hit with and IED. I am beyond outraged that the McCain campaign would use my wounded son as a pawn in their game of political whack-a-mole-gotcha they are playing with Obama. I suspect that many other parents feel exactly the same way.

The right in this country has lied and twisted the facts for far too long. It has run it's last Swift Boat campaign. Their fake patriotism, waving their stupid made in China flags and mouthiong nonsense about service when it's people like me that have sons in the military while their brats, like those of Romney, are too busy making money on Wall Street, mindling dads business, to actually serve! It may not apparent yet, but there are a lot of moderates and liberals who are white with rage right now. Where we say the right as composed of misled or misinformed, we now see them as filthy swine that doesn't deserve the term "human". If the McCains and Fox's and Swift Boaters keep it up, they are going to see the violence come home to roost.

""Perhaps Fate would also approve revoking every single driver's license because the possibility exists that at least one driver will drink and drive?"

Hey, actually, I think that's fine. Let's regulate gun operation just as we do car operation.

And if someone wants to have the 'right' to blow me away when fancy strikes, can I snuggle with who I like without being subject to horrific oppression over some nebulous 'decline of so-righteous values,' while we're at it, or is it still up to the individual whether he ought to be able to bring eighty rounds of buckshot to the liberal church up the way?

I think what separates the people of the world on a fundamental level is the belief in a "moral universe" with a disproportionate emphasis on sexual conduct and sexaul matters.

On the one side, you have people who give credence to this "moral universe" as though it has a real existence, and who have a rural, countrified, backward-looking, gun-toting, church-going, conservative way of looking at things, and who feel ashamed of sex and sexuality in all of its many aspects.

On the other hand, you have people who do not acknowledge the reality of a "moral universe" and who are more city-fied, forward-looking, fun-loving, more casual, more relaxed, free-thinking, creative, and who have a progessive way of looking at things, and who think sex is just fine, and people can do what they want.

But of all this, the main thing is SEX! There are those that are uptight, and those that are relaxed.

Isn't that what it all boils down to, really?

Has anyone mentioned the weird juxtaposition -- or, simply, hypocrisy -- that the shooter had his food stamps cut off?

So, was hypocrisy or mental illness the disconnect here?

Seems like if you were that concerned about "the liberal movement" -- essentially encompassing much of the past few hundred years after The Enlightenment -- you would not accept food stamps.

So, hypocritical or unable to tell right from wrong? (That the perp hid his gun in a guitar case actually does answer that question.)

Paganplace, interesting response.

I don't believe in "bad spirits and bad medicine". I don't believe in ghosts (but for some reason they do scare me, lol). I don't believe in Races. I don't believe the Earth is flat.

I still think he was just a whacko and his actions are not a proper application of Conservative ideology. A proper application of Conservative ideology does require that certain people get shot. However, peaceful church-goers are never in this category.

Mental illness. He was a whacko. No greater meaning to it than that.

Although a proper application of conservative ideology requires that certain people get shot, innocent church-goers never fall into this category.

There is a dance between conservatism and liberalism. In America, new ideas come from the liberals, and are bitterly resented and fought by the conservatives. Over time, many ofthese ideas are accepted, and conservatives of other generations fight to keep these ideas. The american Revolution was one such idea. The conservatives fought for King and Country, and opposed the liberals who believed free men could run their own government without a king, and away from England.
Over time, the conservatives accepted this new order, and fight to keep it, even though it was originally a liberal idea.
Abolition was a very liberal idea. For many years, conservatives fought against it, even to the point of Civil War. Now conservatives not only accept the abolition of slavery, they will fight to oppose it.
Equal rights is another liberal idea- that black and white men should have equal rights and equal opportunities in America. Conservatives fought this one tooth and nail, but over time, accepted it. Now the liberals are proposing equal rights for both genders, and equal rights for gays. The battles are drawn, but conservatives are in the process of wavering as one idea competes with other ideas of equality and liberty, which also were liberal ideas that are now thought of as being conservative ones.
So the dance between conservatives and liberals rise and fall, and this is but one example ofthe anger the culture wars between the two groups engenders.
Liberals died in the American Revolution to make this country independent. Liberals died in the Civil War to make all men free. Liberals died during the Civil Rights Era to make all men equal. Now we have some more liberals, again martyred by the conservatives, who one day in the future will accept the ideas of now.

Daniel,

I don't know of a single, legitimate poster on this board who has championed the right for someone to shoot anybody unless it is, of course, in self defense.

I believe Fate was implicitly making the argument that a prohibition on gun ownership would prevent these types of things from happening. While that may be true, it's also silly and unrealistic. If we applied that same logic to driving, we would have to revoke the drivers licenses of everybody in America, given that at some point, someone out there will use their car as a weapon or try to drive while intoxicated.

"
ZZim:

Mental illness. He was a whacko. No greater meaning to it than that.

Although a proper application of conservative ideology requires that certain people get shot, innocent church-goers never fall into this category.

July 30, 2008 4:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments

"Paganplace, interesting response.

"I don't believe in "bad spirits and bad medicine". I don't believe in ghosts (but for some reason they do scare me, lol)."

If I may humbly offer, that's *why* you and so many others are scared of them. You're too busy trying to reconcile them to one desperately-held worldview that you never let yourself *look.*

I mean, anyone'll jump out of their skins when someone appears where they weren't a moment ago or whatever, but any Irish granny'll tell you, ...swallow whatever just came up and say hello. :)

People make such a *fricking big deal of it* that they're frightened when they don't have to be.

Too many right-wing Christians like yourself got everyone running so scared about 'devils' or people you have to believe are 'serving evil' that you *don't see what you're looking at.

Then you wonder why your indoctrination leads people to blindly believe that 'killing liberals' is the answer to their very mundane problems.... Cause they're primed to believe, 'If ideological conservative Christian policies don't work out, it must not be the policies, I must not live next to some reasonable and caring unitarians, ...it must be *the divil...'

He must have thought himself *such* a sinner for relying on food stamps in the first place, after asking Bush to cut the benefits to the 'lazy poor scum' he became. .....Then to have them cut off...

Maybe it was easier to blame gays and go commit a splashy suicide than admit.... Maybe he was wrong. To too many Christians, being 'wrong' is tantamount to damnation. and Bush said 'God Spoke to him.' The preachers said this was 'Godly.' But. Oops.

"I still think he was just a whacko"

No one's ever 'just' a whacko. Some have more coherence than others, but few 'whackos' are *that* divorced from their own ideology.

" and his actions are not a proper application of Conservative ideology. A proper application of Conservative ideology does require that certain people get shot. However, peaceful church-goers are never in this category."

I thought he was a 'whacko?' He should have a *gun* but not be believed when he attacks exactly the people he was told were 'Satanic and evil and destroying America?'

"The radical of one century is the conservative of the next. The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out, the conservative adopts them".
Mark Twain - Notebook, 1898

Oh, left out a bit:

"Although a proper application of conservative ideology requires that certain people get shot, innocent church-goers never fall into this category."

But.... the conservative Christians are saying the UU folks aren't a 'real Church.' Do they fall in the category *now?*

Apparently someone with a shotgun didn't think so.

Maybe it's the 'categories.'

Lee,

There is a reason the following saying exists, "Democrats are the party of no ideas. Republicans are the party of bad ideas."

John T. Worth and Greg McKendry are heros. I'll say it again.

Unitarians like these impress me. People here who champion the mass murderer don't.

Hitler utterly convinced the German people that the Jews were to blame for every problem in their country. O'reilly and Limbaugh stumbled upon the same black magic that the Brown shirts did and it apparently still has terrible force. It turns the person who wields it into a demi-god but corrupts the culture that they minister to. If there is an apple in the garden this is it.
I wonder what it's going to take to kill the snake this time?

Hi Paganplace, good debate today:

“If I may humbly offer, that's *why* you and so many others are scared of them. You're too busy trying to reconcile them to one desperately-held worldview that you never let yourself *look.* “

I still don’t believe in ‘em. I suppose we’re all irrational sometimes.

“Too many right-wing Christians like yourself …”

Not a right wing Christian. Agnostic Catholic. Watch you assumptions, prejudging people based on partial information (aka “prejudice”) leads to errors in judgment.

“Then you wonder why your indoctrination leads people to blindly believe that 'killing liberals' is the answer to their very mundane problems....”

I don’t wonder. He was a whacko. He understood that certain people need to be shot. He just didn’t know who the right ones were. Because he’s a whacko.

“He must have thought himself *such* a sinner for relying on food stamps in the first place, after asking Bush to cut the benefits to the 'lazy poor scum' he became. .....Then to have them cut off... “

I don’t care what his whacko reasons were. He was wrong to shoot those people.

“I thought he was a 'whacko?' He should have a *gun* but not be believed when he attacks exactly the people he was told were 'Satanic and evil and destroying America?' “

Nope, whackos should not have guns. Guns should be available for honest non-whackos to purchase and use responsibly. I support the Brady gun-control laws. Every natural right can be used irresponsibly. First Amendment rights, Second Amendment rights, etc. It’s just more spectacular and news-worthy when a whacko uses his/her Second Amendment rights irresponsibly.

Response ro Paganplace's addemdum:

"Maybe it's the 'categories.'"

Yup. He's a whacko, that's why he put these folks in the prong category.

I think it is a testimony to orthodox christianity that it champions random shooting in a room full of children, and human sacrifice abroad in foreign lands it can't pinpoint on a map.

This is what the Gnostic Jesus talks about when he says that we will know them by their fruits.

They (the orthodox) are of their father, the Demiurge.

" ZZim:

"Hi Paganplace, good debate today:"

Not actually bad, yes, I do feel like all this is worth saying.

"“If I may humbly offer, that's *why* you and so many others are scared of them. You're too busy trying to reconcile them to one desperately-held worldview that you never let yourself *look.* “

"I still don’t believe in ‘em. I suppose we’re all irrational sometimes."

In some ways you're allowed. But *someone* has to be 'rational' about the 'bad medicine' ..or ordinary ghosts, or whatever. Guess who.

You don't get to call *yourself* conditionally-'whacko' and continue advocating really bad responses, either, though.

It's like with 'ghosts.' You see a ghost, you freak out, you figure it's all the same and you don't believe in that but freak out anyway, so it's OK to shoot up the UU cause people freak out.

I don't get that luxury. I'm like the plumber. *You* can freak out about water spraying all over your drapes and blame Taiwan or fate or whoever set up your sink in 1973. *I* gotta see the actual problem and not freak out.

A less-scrupulous plumber might pander to your desire to believe this was a random 'act of God,' I just gotta fix the 'leak.'

"“Too many right-wing Christians like yourself …”

"Not a right wing Christian. Agnostic Catholic. Watch you assumptions, prejudging people based on partial information (aka “prejudice”) leads to errors in judgment."

Calling yourself 'moderate' doesn't mean saying 'True conservatives believe some people need shooting,' in this context ...isn't right-wing.

"“Then you wonder why your indoctrination leads people to blindly believe that 'killing liberals' is the answer to their very mundane problems....”

"I don’t wonder. He was a whacko. He understood that certain people need to be shot. He just didn’t know who the right ones were. Because he’s a whacko."

And if you went and blew away the 'right' people, you wouldn't be a whacko?

How bout me? I don't got to anything called a 'church' at all. I'm a *real* non-believing librul.

*extending arms.* Just between you, me, and the Mossberg, how's your categories now? Do I pass? Do I live? Do I die? Was it ever yours to decide? Moderate? Maybe I should only be *half-* killed. That'd be moderate. "

"“He must have thought himself *such* a sinner for relying on food stamps in the first place, after asking Bush to cut the benefits to the 'lazy poor scum' he became. .....Then to have them cut off... “"

"I don’t care what his whacko reasons were. He was wrong to shoot those people."

Speaking as the 'whacko' shaman who's dealt with more than one shotgun directed at her, *someone's* gotta care what the whacko reasons are.

Especially when people keep speaking those whacko reasons, calling it 'Spin Free' and denying the results.

TO: SickOfThemAll
who wrote...

“I like your Christ,
I do not like your Christians.
Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

Mohandas Gandhi

AMEN!

MAGPIE: "What religious fundamentalists of all stripes don't seem to understand is that you can't win an argument by quoting that which you're seeking to prove. Quoting the Bible (or the Koran or any holy book) to bolster your claims about the infallibility of scripture is just circular reasoning.
Quoting scripture to others is simply telling them what you believe. It does nothing whatsoever to affect what they believe.
And pressing the argument that "it's true 'cause it's in the Bible" is the most impotent effort of all. You may believe anything you wish, as hard as you want, but that won't make it true for anyone except you."

Amazing that you should say that….uh, what is it that is coming out of your mouth and then put into writing…………and the winner is, Ms./Mr. impotent “what they believe!

Sorry, I couldn’t resist the temptation to put you in your hateful place.

This is from Hitler's Mein Kampf:
You can replace the word Jew with Liberal.

Sound familiar?

The so-called liberal press was actively engaged in digging the grave of the German people and the German Reich. The so-called liberal press was actively engaged in digging the grave of the German people and the German Reich. We can pass by the lying Marxist sheets in silence; to them lying is just as vitally necessary as catching mice for a cat; their function is only to break the people's national and patriotic backbone and make them ripe for the slave's yoke of international capital and its masters, the Jews.
And what did the state do against this mass poisoning of the nation? Nothing, absolutely nothing. A few ridiculous decrees, a few fines for villainy that went too far, and that was the end of it. Instead, they hoped to curry favor with this plague by flattery, by recognition of the 'value' of the press, its 'importance,' its 'educational mission,' and more such nonsense-as for the Jews, they took all this with a crafty smile and acknowledged it with sly thanks.
The reason, however, for this disgraceful failure on the part of the state was not that it did not recognize the danger, but rather in a cowardice crying to high Heaven and the resultant halfheartedness of all decisions and measures. No one had the courage to use thoroughgoing radical methods, but in this as in everything else they tinkered about with a lot of halfway prescriptions, and instead of carrying the thrust to the heart, they at most irritated the viper-with the result that not only did everything remain as before, but on the contrary the power of the institutions which should have been combated increased from year to year.. We can pass by the lying Marxist sheets in silence; to them lying is just as vitally necessary as catching mice for a cat; their function is only to break the people's national and patriotic backbone and make them ripe for the slave's yoke of international capital and its masters, the Jews.

Hi Paganplace, last post ‘til later this eve:

“Calling yourself 'moderate' doesn't mean saying 'True conservatives believe some people need shooting,' in this context ...isn't right-wing. “

I’m not a moderate. I’m a conservative. Happen to be moderate on certain social issues. Don’t think I’m Liberal on anything.

“And if you went and blew away the 'right' people, you wouldn't be a whacko?”

Correct.

“How bout me? I don't got to anything called a 'church' at all. I'm a *real* non-believing librul.”

So what? Are you attacking anyone? Physically? Then probably not. Terrorists need to be shot. Robbers with weapons need to be shot. Convicted murderers need to be shot. Enemy soldiers who haven’t surrendered yet need to be shot. Child molesters probably deserve to be shot, but I agree with the Supremes that it’s probably bad government policy to do so. Whackos who go to schools or churches or shopping malls (etc.) and shoot random people need to be shot. That’s pretty much the full list. Can’t think of any more than that. Even Mimes get a free pass in my book (joke, please don’t hurt me, lol).

“*extending arms.* Just between you, me, and the Mossberg, how's your categories now? Do I pass? Do I live? Do I die? Was it ever yours to decide? Moderate? Maybe I should only be *half-* killed. That'd be moderate. “

You can’t half kill people. That’s why the category “people who should be shot” is actually quite small.

“Speaking as the 'whacko' shaman who's dealt with more than one shotgun directed at her, *someone's* gotta care what the whacko reasons are.”

You’re a Shaman? Pretty cool. My aunt is a Shaman. It makes her happy. I love her, so it make me happy too.

Athena:
"It is no wonder Christians look away from people that practice hatred, being judgmental, and hypocrisy and look to those that are accepting, non-judgmental, and kind instead."

"Oh, you mean like... Unitarians? Unitarians are the most loving, compassionate, and accepting people that I've encountered. The irony of the situation is that, if Adkinson would have asked the UU church for help, they would have given it to him freely - regardless of his beliefs or ideology."

Don't put words into my mouth, but on another note "if Adkinson would have asked the UU church for help, they would have given it to him freely - regardless of his beliefs or ideology."

Right, like you know that for sure.......

MAGPIE said: "What religious fundamentalists of all stripes don't seem to understand is that you can't win an argument by quoting that which you're seeking to prove. Quoting the Bible (or the Koran or any holy book) to bolster your claims about the infallibility of scripture is just circular reasoning.
Quoting scripture to others is simply telling them what you believe. It does nothing whatsoever to affect what they believe.
And pressing the argument that "it's true 'cause it's in the Bible" is the most impotent effort of all. You may believe anything you wish, as hard as you want, but that won't make it true for anyone except you."

ME: This is so obviously and blatently true that this Christian is astonished that anyone can disagree. Christianity can only be taught by example, not endless spouting of scripture. Thank you, Magpie. Luv 2 b @ the mall, open your eyes and your heart.

Well, Zzim:

""“And if you went and blew away the 'right' people, you wouldn't be a whacko?”

"Correct."

Someone went to a great deal of effort to convince this man he was 'blowing away the right people.'

Conservative.

Christian.

"Don't put words into my mouth, but on another note "if Adkinson would have asked the UU church for help, they would have given it to him freely - regardless of his beliefs or ideology."

"Right, like you know that for sure......."

Yes, Anonymous, she would. Many Pagans would. When someone's willing to help us, it *does stand out.*

ARMINIUS:

According to your theory, then God wasted a lot of time putting scripture into place for people to read and refer too.

You are the one that needs to open your eyes, I already have and what I see is nothing but hatred spewed on this thread and people that hate God, the Bible, and Christians.

I don't hate God, the Bible or real Christians.

I do hate the Religious Reich Repukes, because they are FAKE Christians who cherry-pick the Bible to back up their hatred of gays, but completely ignore the teachings of Jesus.

Who would Jesus torture?

This man was lathered up into a psychotic state by the HATE SPEECH spewed by Junkie Rush, PervOReilly, Sean Insannity and Michael Savage Weiner.

Michael Savage Weiner is particulary heinous, he just got in trouble for smearing autistic kids.

Religious Reich Repukes caused these murders.

Liberals were the victims.

"ARMINIUS:

According to your theory, then God wasted a lot of time putting scripture into place for people to read and refer too."

Or.... not....

Anonymous:
(waves hi to Paganplace!)

I am Christian, I do not hate. I read the bible and attend church. The bible, most especially the Gospels, tells you HOW to live, and that is what is important. I saw no hatred in Magpie. I do see hatred in you.

"This man was lathered up into a psychotic state by the HATE SPEECH spewed by Junkie Rush, PervOReilly, Sean Insannity and Michael Savage Weiner.

Michael Savage Weiner is particulary heinous, he just got in trouble for smearing autistic kids."

Oh. *Goddess.* Don't get me started. 'Morally-superior' Christian, figures all it takes is smacking a few kids around and that'll 'cure' the 'imaginary' autism.

*That's* a symptom of conservative belief that everyone's actually the *same* and only needs spanking or shooting to make everyone the same kind of bastich as themselves.

And, hi, Arminius. Did I mention I really don't envy you right now? You know, whatever I can do for ya, there.

Hint, when someone wants to smack around autistic kids, and say, 'Hey, I got the belt all the time, and I turned out OK....'

They didn't.

"I read the bible and attend church"

He claims to read the Bible but this guy doesn't believe the Bible like Magpie. This is how IDIOTIC liberals are. One man cannot stand the STUPIDITY anymore so he killed some of them.

Although it was not the right thing to do, the liberals are to be blamed. STUPIDITY ATTRACTS DESTRUCTION. They are like wild grasses growing inside a mall. Some are tempted to weed them out and it just happened.

Soon there will be a grand weeding out just like Sodom and Gomorrah. The "mall" would look like a mall again as it has been DESIGNED.

Spidey's back! Open season!

And, really, actually, if I can plug a website, a) just for some needed levity, and b) so maybe some folks can understant why we 'elitists' aren't satisfied with certain people's thought processes, even if they think they got 'authority' behind them, may I direct your eyes toward:

http://notalwaysright.com/

Now, I'm just going out on a limb, here, but it's *possible* this-all don't have to come down to shootout at the UU corral.

"Although it was not the right thing to do, the liberals are to be blamed. STUPIDITY ATTRACTS DESTRUCTION. They are like wild grasses growing inside a mall. Some are tempted to weed them out and it just happened."

Ah, yeah. This happens *every* time wild grasses sprout up on the threshhold of Abercrombie. Someone really ought to get shot over it.

When the rooster stops acting like a rooster for the hens, something is wrong. The owner of the poultry would normally get rid of the rooster.

STUPIDITY ATTRACTS DESTRUCTION. It's time the liberals should look at the mirror. Weed themselves out of the stupidity that they're doing.

It's beginning to look like Spidey is in favor of shooting liberals. I guess he doesn't know that a lot of us liberals can shoot back, if absolutely necessary.

" s:

"When the rooster stops acting like a rooster for the hens, something is wrong. The owner of the poultry would normally get rid of the rooster."

Obviously, he 'chose' the wrong 'lifestyle,' eh?

Maybe someone'll come along and be a *great cock* and sort it all out, eh?

"STUPIDITY ATTRACTS DESTRUCTION."

This hasn't escaped our notice, actually, particularly this week. You just may not like the conclusions.

"It's time the liberals should look at the mirror. Weed themselves out of the stupidity that they're doing."

What, and save you the satisfaction of shooting us?

That'd be unsporting.

Maybe if you spent half the time praying you demand others do, you'd be less worried about wild grasses in the holy mall.

Hi, Paganplace,

As always, I'm glad you're on my side. I might need your help.

For some reason I'm spoiling for a fight. I think I'm gonna get one.

'Stupidity attracts destruction.' Well, then, Spidey, perhaps you should be more careful.

"

Hi, Paganplace,

As always, I'm glad you're on my side. I might need your help."

Have to say, it's not quite shaping up that way, really, but I'm here. :)

"For some reason I'm spoiling for a fight. I think I'm gonna get one."

This appears to be the way of the world, but this dude would be having the same 'fight' whether we were here being theological or singing 'it's a hard-knock Life.'

STUPIDITY ATTRACTS DESTRUCTION. It is always bound to happen. The mall is not designed to have wild grasses. The law of nature is that STUPIDITY should be weeded out. Incidentally, that is what stupid evolutionists believe also.

Bin Ladin is DRIVEN by that law. One way to stop Bin Ladin is for liberals to weed themselves out of their STUPIDITY. A self cleansing per se. Otherwise somebody somewhere will do it for them. Earthquakes? I hope not.

C ya later guys.

"STUPIDITY ATTRACTS DESTRUCTION. It is always bound to happen. The mall is not designed to have wild grasses."

I think that's why you'll not find wither wild grasses in the mall nor anyone distressed about the fact should any appear. It's kind of a mall like that.

" The law of nature is that STUPIDITY should be weeded out. Incidentally, that is what stupid evolutionists believe also."

It's not incidental, actually. The thing about 'stupidity,' though, is, it's non-transferrable. Even with the capslock. So sorry.

"Bin Ladin is DRIVEN by that law. One way to stop Bin Ladin is for liberals to weed themselves out of their STUPIDITY."

So, ...half the nation should kill ourselves so that a snotnosed and bearded prig from an oil family doesn't 'win?'

Gods, how could I not see the *compassionate brilliance* of you right-wingers.

" A self cleansing per se. Otherwise somebody somewhere will do it for them. Earthquakes? I hope not."

Really. If that's so, why do you need a 'divil' with a beard and a microphone, sport? You needed *him* to scare you into mass-murder?

Gods forbid anyone should be *stupid* or nothing.

"C ya later guys."

I think you will not. You didn't see us *earlier,* did you?

Smart-guy.

Spidey seems to be advocating some sort of ethnic cleansing aimed at liberals. Real good Christian attitude, huh? Apparently he has never heard of a guy named Jesus.

Paganplace,

I know you travel your own road, as do I, and that we certainly don't agree about everything. But I am always glad to see you online.

Arminius:
Anonymous:

"I am Christian, I do not hate. I read the bible and attend church. The bible, most especially the Gospels, tells you HOW to live, and that is what is important. I saw no hatred in Magpie. I do see hatred in you."

Really, hatred comes in many forms.......you!

Arminius: "Spidey seems to be advocating some sort of ethnic cleansing aimed at liberals. Real good Christian attitude, huh? Apparently he has never heard of a guy named Jesus."

Your issue with Spiderman2 is you do not like hime because he is different, outside of your peon understanding.

For the record, I have read many posts by you that are full of hatred, name calling, critisizing, and judging of others.

So what kind of Christian did you say you were??

"I know you travel your own road, as do I, and that we certainly don't agree about everything. But I am always glad to see you online."

Likewise, Arminius. You're the kind of guy who constitutes why I even bother. It's not like a waste of breath like that intends to learn nothing, right?

It's pretty funny. Somehow a stalk of wild rye found its way into my yard, this morning, never mind some 'sacred mall.'

I thought of the Mysteries of Demeter at Eleusis, what used to make a 'Christ,' in fact...

Speaking of knowing how and why the psychoes think... look at S. The very same idea, in a way, a 'wild grass' appreaing in his 'designed' world, wasn't an occasion of wonder for him, but a justification for what, ...killing.

For the very 'bread and body' he thinks a Bin Laden is attacking.

Someone took that from him and called it 'Christ.'
Said, 'Blame the liberals and maybe this horrid apparition of 'Wild Grass' in his controlled capitalist world won't frighten him. If only enough people die.

What was I saying about 'divils' earlier?

It happens too much.

Someone took his 'Christ' from him, and told him 'libruls' were in the way.

Here's a stalk of wild rye.

This is the 'body' people scuffle over.

Cut down, maybe for you.

S. will not see us.

Anonymous:

You care to give examples of my posts that were 'full of hatred'?

Oh, yeah, anon, if you do try to quote some of my posts, be sure to include date and time, so I can check for myself.

Shhh, friend Christian. Violent men might demand this or that, maybe deliver three blows or some such thing, hoping to demand some 'thing' or other, whatnot.

*handing over a single stalk of grain.*

Some try to take this sort of thing by force or power, but I think this belongs to you, too.

Sorry bout the mess. Some do seem to insist upon it.

So Paganplace says:

"Someone went to a great deal of effort to convince this man he was 'blowing away the right people.' "

Actually, it's more likely that someone went through a lot of trouble to convince this man that Liberals were ruining the country by exerting political influence. Because he was a whacko, he decided that "ruining the country" through political influence was worth shooting over.

But he was wrong. And whacko.

People try hard every day to convince me that conservative Christians are ruining the country too. But I don't go out and try to shoot any of them. Because I'm not whacko.

Yup, Paganplace, it's a mess here, but what the hell.

Something positively holy about a stalk of grain. Thanks, friend.

"People try hard every day to convince me that conservative Christians are ruining the country too. But I don't go out and try to shoot any of them. Because I'm not whacko."

Also because 'liberals' ain't justifying shooting no one on the radio 24/7.

Those who have spread hate through this world via religiously foundations of hate and fear have blood on their hands. They, the conservative fundamentalist aspect of the American political spectrum have spread anti-semitic like hate. They have spread the hate of Liberals, Democratic Values, Equal Rights, Gays, Gays, and Gays. They use the same language and mantra of World War Two Germany. They use this hate and fear to push blame away from themselves or real reasons. This hate is identical to the rhetoric used against the Jews of Germany and other parts of the world. This is the reason why we have the tragedies like the killing of the teen in California (Larry King) or the shooting rampage in Tennessee by Jim D. Adkisson. Political pundits also have blood on their hands for driving a wedge of hate in the minds of many Americans. AM radio also uses hate filled speech toward Liberals or other political groups they fear. This is the result of 20 years of hate speech propaganda by many on the far right of the political spectrum. The lives of those people are on their watch, their hands, their words.

Just speaking of who won't see us. :)

This is for those who doubt the need for secular government in the US.
We do not consider that much of the covenants or Biblical law is not legal in our modern secular world. Christianity, Judaism, and Islamic religious beliefs have one thing in common, the Old Testament and many of the same prophets. Think about or read the Old Testament or New Testament and consider what verses are by modern legal standards, not legal. The list is long. If you do not believe me, please do the research for yourself. Here are some verses that are against the law in the U.S.A. and the modern secular world.
(Leviticus 20:13/24:16/24:10-15/25:44//27:29/, Numbers 15:35-36/31:31-40, Deuteronomy 22:28-29/21:15/21:18-21/22:13-24/13:6-18, Hosea 2:2-13/9:12-16, Exodus 35:2/21:7/22:18/22:20/22:29/31:14-16, Zechariah 13:3, Judges 11:30-40, Daniel 11:30-39, Jeremiah 12:14-17, Matthew 5:25, Samuel 15:3/10:21, 1st Samuel 15:3, 1st Timothy 2:12, Psalm 12:3/137:8-9 These are only a few examples. Concubines and multiple wives are illegal in the modern world yet are permitted within the Bible. I am thankful for secular, rational government otherwise we would live in a nation reminiscent of Afghanistan under the Taliban. Yet there are some people here in the U.S.A. that would be perfectly fine with Biblical Law becoming the Law of the Land. This is why we must defend the separation of Church and State by denying or refusing government Promotion of Religion. If we do not we loose our precious Liberty. Some Christians would argue that Christ would not enforce these verses. They would be incorrect due to the very fact that Christ was Jewish and held Moses Law in high regard. Christ mentions Old Testament Law many times through out the Bible. Jesus refers to Moses directly in verses (Matthew 5:17, John 5:45-47, Luke 24:44, John 6:19-23, and Hebrews 11:23-29). At any time Christians can revert to the now illegal aspects of the Bible. There is much in the Bible that is unethical, immoral, and despicable. Unfortunately it is the God of the Bible who is the one acting with such ugly behavior. This is the reason why religion and government must always be separated as our constitution has wonderfully provided for.

The religious conservatives argue that gay marriage will ruin the institution of marriage, redefine marriage and destroy civilization. Some even claim that gay marriage is forcing religion to conform to the gay agenda, thus violating the freedom of religion. This is all fear; fear based in a lack of logic. There is a big difference between State Marriage and Church Marriage. Just because gays can marry with State permission the Church can still have its religious freedom to deny gay marriage within the Church. Straight marriage is under attack by many other factors than gay marriage. Infidelity, substance abuse, child and spousal abuse, economic stress, emotional and sexual repression, and career stress all tear apart or degrade the institution of marriage. These factors have been around a lot longer than gays wishing to get married. As for civilization being destroyed there is no proof that gays can bring down an empire. Most empires fall due to over-expenditure of resources, having a military that are to expensive to maintain, boarders that are to vast to protect, corruption by the leaders, or take over by foreign invaders. Some religious social conservatives like to point to Europe as proof that allowing gays to marry is bringing birth rates down. This is another falsehood. Why? Birth rates in post-industrialized Europe have dropped due to increases in people getting married later in life and having fewer children, a rise in the cost of rearing children, an increase of the use of birth control and planned pregnancies vs. unplanned, and many other factors other than gays getting married. All the arguments that religious conservatives argue fall apart like the Roman Empire.

Political language is very tricky to weed through. We are affected by the psychological reaction we experience when we hear or read words. The reaction may be conscious or unconscious but we conditioned by the language that surrounds us. The Green House Effect has turned into Global Warming and now is a cute little puppy named Climate Change, Thus removing the sound of threat or man’s influence. To avoid the constitutionality of choice the wording is not anti-choice instead it is called pro-life.
How is your PTSD or my grand father’s shell shock, as G. Carlin has pointed out years ago through comedy? A tax shelter for the ultra wealthy is called a fair tax or flat tax. If you wish to have the tax be a smaller proportion of your income just make more money. That sounds great for a world full of only Kings, but we are living in reality. We greet one another on radio talk shows as, “you’re a great American,” thus leaving the opposing viewpoint drowning in anti-Americanism or unpatriotic, un-American, subversive waters by default. How sad it is that blind nationalism reminiscent of the Soviet era of anti-Soviets were rounded up and sent to reprogramming camps or prison for dissenting opinions. World War 2 had a group that rounded up anti-Germans, they were lovingly called the S.S. That is why we should all be disturbed by the use of the term anti-American or un-American when describing fellow Americans. The catch phrase, “Love it or Leave it,” is an endearing bumper sticker for Pol Pot. He hated the educated intellectuals of Cambodia who were smart enough to realize how much they did not Love it. Yes the big surprise is the fundamentalist Extremists during the 1980’s who beat down the Soviet Union in Afghanistan by the Mujahedeen who referred to the Soviet Union as secular atheists that had to be expelled and defeated in the name of God. Does that sound familiar? Does the fear, ridicule, or language of some conservatives sound similar to the Bush Sr. Freedom Fighters of Afghanistan? Many conservatives routinely mention their displeasure for intellectuals, science, atheists, and other religions other than Christianity, Anti-American, Americans, and opposing views, thoughts, or speech. The problem is that questioning religion, conservative republican ideologies, or foreign and domestic policy will garner a possible label of un-American or anti-American subversion reminiscent or the Alien and Sedition Act of early American history. This is extreme nationalism, a super pride of nationhood, a pride so great that anything or anyone even slightly different thus becomes an Anti-American. We must remember that the only true Anti-Americans are those who wish to commit violence, kill, or wage war upon the nation, not the Americans who question or participate on the other side of the political equation. We are all Americans. Speech, thought and opinion are and can never be Anti-American. Though it would seem that we have sunk down to Soviet Era Nationalism. I am now sick and tired of being sick and tired of blind nationalism.

"How is your PTSD or my grand father’s shell shock,"

Better than you'd think, thanks. You [psted this here and now why, again?

"Also because 'liberals' ain't justifying shooting no one on the radio 24/7."

Nah, they do it here on the Inter-tubes.

" ZZim:

"Also because 'liberals' ain't justifying shooting no one on the radio 24/7."

Nah, they do it here on the Inter-tubes."

Is *that* what you see.

Curious. I thought we were just 'stupidly nonviolent' and deserving to be weeded out' a little while ago.

Care for some wild rye?

I mean, ya know, Zzim, we've *apparently* just been so *horridly putting out* the Christian conservatives you are or are not, depending what time it is, that someone's pissed off enough about us not committing mass suicide cause bin Laden made a video, that it's our fault is someone goes to a pawnshop, writes a four page conservative manifesto, and then tries to blow away a bunch of 'libruls' with a shotgun.

Obviously, something someone said on the Net means they had it coming.

Someone might have taken away his *gun* and we can't have that. What if he decided he was entitled to shoot Unitarians over gay marriage that ain't happened taking away the fod stamps he voted against?

How's he supposed to shoot anyone if he has to spend his *ammunition* money on *food?* Oh, Gods, the travails of the poor conservatives! So oppressed by people not obeying his world-wisdom as a .... random dude with a shotgun!

How unChristian of those Unitarians to not shoot themselves *for* him!

Will the suffering never end? I could cry.

"There has been only one Christian. They caught him and crucified him.......early."
Mark Twain - Notebook, 1898

Anyway, Arminius, maybe I'll just leave this to you. Clearly, your co-religionists have had magically-conferred a whole Hell of a lot of unquestionable righteousness, so really, it should be all footnotes from here.

Bright Lady, but I'm impressed with all this goodness. It's almost like I wasn't some vicious liberal suggesting the victims of a hate-based shooting didn't actually 'have it coming' in some way.

You know, Arminius? This moral relativism and all. Selfishly, I hope my partner of eight years gets to not have to fight over my corpse and belonging when I croak, and some poor conservative Christian is gonna just *have* to marry a donkey.

And if someone in middle school unfortunately finds out what a condom is, then obviously, people need to get blown away in church to protect us from a 'culture of death.'

I mean, we're just all sinning to beat the band, here.

Paganplace, if ya gotta go, go in peace. I'm probably gonna call it a night soon. The Braves are losing again, and the blog seems to have lost its head of steam.

*taptapping fingernail on desk.*

As for the rest of you. Pick a holy Name. Any.

This. And all that led up to it.

Not OK.

Full Stop.

Dig?

" Arminius:

Paganplace, if ya gotta go, go in peace. I'm probably gonna call it a night soon. The Braves are losing again, and the blog seems to have lost its head of steam."

Eh, could be it's no occasion for steam. Losing heads, on the other hand... :)

Can't help but root for the Braves, though. They're sorta displaced Bostonians down here, too. :)

This twisted SOB Adkisson and his ilk has convinced me that if you can't beat them, join them. So, this fag is getting a gun.

When I have to worry about being shot in a restaurant http://speakout.com/activism/apstories/9977-1.html

or strung up on a fence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard

or attacked while walking down the street
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=2660

It makes me realize that I'm not safe in a society which rewards media stars who actively encourage others to acts of violence against me, and who then demurely state that they're oh, so, surprised.

From now on, this fag is locked and loaded. I pray to God that I never need it. That it comes to this is shame - my shame, and ours.

I guess Adkinsson was just doing a little bit of Old Testament-style smiting of the unbelievers, then?

Brambleton wrote: "I believe Fate was implicitly making the argument that a prohibition on gun ownership would prevent these types of things from happening. While that may be true, it's also silly and unrealistic. If we applied that same logic to driving, we would have to revoke the drivers licenses of everybody in America, given that at some point, someone out there will use their car as a weapon or try to drive while intoxicated."

I don't think I was making that argument, implicitly or explicitly, but your analogy is silly. You see, cars have useful purposes that can on rare occasion kill people through accident or improper use. Hand guns on the other hand have no purpose except to kill people and can, through accident or improper use, kill people.

Right now I'm more interested in how this man obtained his gun. Was it legally bought or bought second hand or through a gun show without a background check. Time will tell as America once again lives through more death and destruction to keep the gun lovers happy.

" Athena:

"I guess Adkinsson was just doing a little bit of Old Testament-style smiting of the unbelievers, then?"

Well, Athena, this kind of little shoot-em up personal Apocalypse should have gone out with 'Mutual Assured Destruction' and all that.

We, collectively, at least, are gonna *live.*

It's about time we all started acting the part.

"Don't put words into my mouth, but on another note "if Adkinson would have asked the UU church for help, they would have given it to him freely - regardless of his beliefs or ideology."

Right, like you know that for sure......."

Anonymous - have you ever MET any UU's? If you had, you would not be asking that silly question.

Hey, if you can't shoot up a few unbelievers, what good is religion?

"Hey, actually, I think that's fine. Let's regulate gun operation just as we do car operation."

In many states we already do. Take Illinois, for example. One of the most restrictive states in the nation with respects to gun ownership. To (legally) own any firearm, one needs a FOID card issued from the State Police Department. They do an extensive background check for any past criminal activity or mental health problems. If any are found, you do not get the card. If you have the card and any violations occur, the card is taken away. To purchase any gun within the state, the card is an absolute requirement. (Yes, there are loopholes - you can purchase the gun in another state and bring it in, but it is illegal to own the firearm without the card.) So in my state, it's actually easier to get a driver's license than it is to get a FOID.

What gets my goat is that people don't realize that there are responsible people who do own firearms. These people keep them locked at all times, use them for target shooting or are simply collectors. These people support restrictive measures to keep their firearms out of the hands of those who should not have them. These people realize that firearms have the potential to do great harm and do not have problems with gun control measures and keeping the ownership bar high as long as that bar is surmountable by law-abiding folks such as themselves. These people realize that the proliferation of guns within our society is a serious problem and do all they can to stop it. But alas these people are invariantly lumped together with the crazy hillbillies that go on shooting rampages throughout the nation. They are labeled as "gun loving fanatics" who use their firearms to compensate for their genital shortcomings (my favorite slam).

We love to criticize and ridicule those that do not agree with us, those whose opinions differ from ours. One finds this mentality everywhere; on the gun control debate, the abortion debate, the prostitution debate, the religion debates, the political debates, etc. Perhaps that's what the pastor from the now too-well-known Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church was trying to teach us. It's called Tolerance and respect for the viewpoints of others even when we don't agree with them.

I think we are underemphasizing the moral culpability of demagogues like O'Reilly, Hannity and Coulter who have made careers out of scapegoating liberals for all the ills, real and imagined, of our society. If they were not deliberately purveying falsehoods (big lies, really) for their own benefit they could not be blamed for some mentally ill person taking them seriously. Since they are deliberately spreading lies, they are morally culpable when some deranged person takes them seriously.
Decent people need to demand that they accept responsibility for their hate mongering.

To Greginnyc:

It's good to know there are still plenty of overly masculine men out there complaining about how women have lost respect for the male gender (note my sarcasm). Please spare us all the talk about "100 years ago," and the "back in my day," ridiculous "factual" information about how people lived. Maybe you should take note that if a woman stepped out of line 100 years ago she could be beaten by her husband with a stick no bigger than his forearm. Or perhaps you failed to notice that if an African-American was lynched 100 years ago, no one would even take notice. That sounds like an impressive society you've conjured up (again note my sarcasm). If you want to be a "real" man, than own up to the fact there will always be women out there that are smarter, stronger, more ambitious, and more successful then you will ever be. Get over yourself.

My life has been threatened by hateful men several times.

Once: A man threatened to beat me to death with a baseball bat because all children needed to be taught a lesson. What did I do? I walked in front of his house. how did I respond to his threat? I just kept walking. 2 weeks later he was arrested. In his house they found 50 bags full of garbage and 2 dead teenagers.

Once: A guy held a gun to my head and told me to have sex with his friend. When I refused he put the gun away and drove me home.

Once: A guy pointed a gun at me and told me to stop walking through his yard. I inored him and just kept walking but I never walked through his yard again.

Once: a man held his hands around my throat and told me he just had to kill me. He didn't really have a reason he just needed to do it. I kicked him as hard as I could and ran for my life. 2 years later I was granted a divorce and custody of our 3 children.

I condidered myself to be a christian in those days. I doubt my religion had anyhting to do with any of those threats. I'm sure these guys gained a few inches in their man area from their acts of "bravery". I suppose I probably deserved some of those threats. Maybe my exsitance is that offensive to men.

My point is that this shooting probably had NOTHING to do with religion. It was probably more about a guy with a mental disorder who would have struck out at anyone. If not UU's then someone else.

I personally believe that christianity is the root of all evil. Yet I am confident that I will never take it upon myself to eliminate Christians.

I am a member of a Unitarian Univeresalist church and even after this "random" shooting I still feel safer as a UU then I ever did in my christian days. For this guy to shoot UU's for their beliefs is rediculous. UU's talk a lot about what they believ but few of them take any action. UU's for the most part are all bark and no bite really.

I long for the day when religion is as rediculous in the eyes of the world as it is in my eyes.

Why don't we save the planet, or feed the poor? Surely there must be a more productive way to use our energy.

Why can't we all just get along?

When I was in my 20's, I was shocked but not surprised when the National Guard shot and killed 4 unarmed demonstrators at Jackson State and then 4 more at Kent State. You Liberals and we radicals need to arm ourselves and to take out the O'Reilly's, Hannitys and that Nazi Bimbo Ann Coulter. Time for them to go. They like to use the term spineless liberals. They should be shown that radicals are not wimps at all. Burn, baby, burn. That plant spewing lead or mercury into our air needs to be blown up. I am too old to do this but somebody needs to. Gil Scot Heron was wrong, the revolution WILL be televised.

Garyl1, your post is, unfortunately, true. While I stand firm on my own belief that marriage is between one man and one woman, I strongly back civil unions giving gay couples the same LEGAL rights as the rest of us.

As for the Unitarian Church, this "nutcase" and walking advertisement for gun legislation, could have just as easily chosen a Quaker Meeting House, Congregational Church, Episcopal Church and more. There are some pretty liberal Reform Congregations out there as well.

It is my hope that this cretin is prosecuted to the full extent of the law in what is a "hate" crime. Guess the idiot wants to set up concentration camps for liberals as well. A disgrace to this country.

Bud wrote: "These people [many gun owners] realize that the proliferation of guns within our society is a serious problem and do all they can to stop it. But alas these people are invariantly lumped together with the crazy hillbillies that go on shooting rampages throughout the nation."

No, these people, like other gun control advocates are attacked by the NRA from all sides in order to maintain the profits and complete freedom of the gun industry and its profits. If you think its about the 2nd amendment you are very wrong. It about money, as most things people fight over are.

Take the recent overturning of the DC handgun ban. It was not a complete gun ban as the NRA depicted it. You could own rifles, shotguns and other types of guns, just not handguns due to their use in crime in DC. Anyone who wanted to protect themselves could get a weapon. But that was not enough for the NRA since it prevented sales of handguns. Its the sale, not what happens after the sale, that the NRA cares about.

Consider the NRA's initial stand against trigger locks. Now why would the NRA be against trigger locks? It has nothing to do with how you use the gun after purchase or your ability to purchse. But it would require gun makers to provide them, an added cost they would either have to eat or pass along. Its akin to requiring car makers to put seat belts in cars, something the car makers fought when it was being considered as a requirement for the same reasons, eat the cost or pass it along.

But its the NRA, an association of sportsmen and gun owners that was fighting trigger locks. It opened my eyes as to who the NRA really worked for. They get their funding from those who are largely responsible gun owners and sportsmen and then it seems use those funds to lobby for the gun industry to maintain and increase profits, allowing the gun industry even more profit as they do not need to hire their own lobbiests. A sweet deal, except for the responsible members of the NRA.

"While I stand firm on my own belief that marriage is between one man and one woman, I strongly back civil unions giving gay couples the same LEGAL rights as the rest of us."

Okey dokey. Then how about gay people take the word 'marriage' and you settle for 'civil union'?

No? Then they aren't equal, are they?

And no matter how you dice it civil unions aren't the same legally. One insurmountable obstacle is international. That is, foreign countries don't typically recognize various forms of marriage. It's either marriage or not, once you set foot outside the US. So for civil union couples they instantly lose all legal standing once they travel.

Plus, of course, there's all the social benefit of the term marriage. Use of the term marriage helps couples stay together.

Why should the power of that word be used only for strengthening straight relationships, not gay ones?

Again, would you settle for civil unions and let gays have marriage?

Contrary to the stereotype, some liberals are quite comfortable with guns and know how to use them.

Until we live in a country that lives up to its hype, I'll be sleeping with my two old friends, Smith and Wesson.

Disgusting, Chopin.

There's nothing to be won by 'fighting' like that. People who *want* us divided against each other say that. And look what happens.

Hillman wrote: "Okey dokey. Then how about gay people take the word 'marriage' and you settle for 'civil union'? No? Then they aren't equal, are they? And no matter how you dice it civil unions aren't the same legally."

You argument would suggest men and women are not equal in America because men are called "male" and women are called "female". But they are considered equal under the law, and that is what matters.

The legal issue is not with the word, it is about equal protection. If "civil unions" offer the same legal protections (inheritance, medical decisions, taxation, etc) then you can call it what you like. Right now gay couples who consider themselves lifetime partners do not have the same equal protections as heterosexual couples who can enter into marriage and obtain the favorable protections of inheritance, taxation, medical decisions, etc. That is the issue.

I have always thought something akin to civil unions are necessary but not just to make gay couples equally protected. Take for example a person or family that takes in grandparants. All legal matters must be done through an attorney, and taxation is handled by making them "dependents". I always thought that any people who decide to live together and want to take care of each other should have a siomple legal mechanism allowing the protections available under a "civil union". It could be gay couples, friends living together, family members who live together, etc.

I remember a college friend whose mom, after his dad died, lived with a woman who also lost her husband. Both were about 55. They were good friends who lived together during their old age for about 20 years, until they died. They were not "gay" but could have formed a civil union to formalize their close friendship and shared living arrangement. Maybe once civil unions become normalized it will be extended, or maybe it won't need to and people will simply learn to use it for these purposes. Just my $0.02.

Typical Confederate. Idiotic, ruthless, and hypocritically God-less. Confederates are a disgrace to America. It is good that they Lost The War. Every once in a while they re-surface like dirty termites.

Sorry, PP. Was being sarcastic there.

Frankly, I intend to live proudly as a liberal. And if someone decides to go hunting witches, I hope I die as honorably as that gentleman that threw himself in front of the crazy man with a shotgun. Or, at the very least, take a few more of the crazies out with me before I go.

Rationalist wrote:

"I do agree what Mr. Greginnyk have said. The so called "Liberalism" evolving since mid 60's "Hippie Culture" era, and insinuated itself in mainstream society, and world Cultural heritage at large. This "Liberalism" is destroying the very foundation of Human Habitat, the core NIDUS Family structure- built on by people like Husband, wife, Children. To day this basic structure is crumbling due to "Liberal" Pseudo thesis and doctrine."

Not to be petty, but wouldn't you think that someone who signs a letter "Rationalist" would know something about: verb tense and number ("Mr. Greginny have said"), sentence structure (you need a noun and a verb), spelling, capitalization, and simple comma punctuation?

And what does "Liberal Pseudo thesis" mean?

Please learn to write before you offer up your neanderthal ideas for consideration.

Try to find any mention the killings or the individual that started all this with his delusion on the Fox News website. It's not there using their search engine. That's media bias for you.

Complain about the influence of Hannity and O'Reilly and the corrupt Fox News Channel that provides them a platform at...

yourcomments@foxnews.com

They need to feel some heat!

PS - Google will find it, just not the Fox News search engine

Bill....You are absolutely right. Fox News has NOTHING about the Knoxville shooting on their website....

Complain at yourcomments@foxnews.com

or call 212-301-3000 and ask for the comment line.

Filthy cowards!!!

First you ethnically cleanse then you journalistically cleanse.

Bill....Yes it is ironic that a Google search with the right keywords takes you to the Fox story but the Fox search engine won't find the same story.

Also...no mention of the books in the Fox story. If this guy was black and attacked a white Southern Baptist church and had Obama's book at home, Fox would be wallpapered 24/7 with it.

Cowards and liars...

yourcomments@foxnews.com or 212-301-3000

SOK, Athena... Certainly, this whole episode represents one of the nagging fears we live with.... how many times do we hear the hateful conservative alander and hate-speech, and worry about someone who believes it having a really bad day.

About it being about people we love.

But, we remember the Gods will be with us on any such dark day, and we go on, even if all some conservatives can say about it is, 'Well, I still think gay marriage is wrong, and I still hate liberals.'

It's sad and it's sickening, but that's the world right now. The Sun'll come out tomorrow, though, right?

To Paganplace:

Black folks did not get their rights and the civil rights amendment until the rioting in the 60's. You think there is no connection?

Chopin224:

Blacks got their rights in the '60s because of a guy named Martin Luther King. THAT is the connection.

The scapegoating of others for their beliefs, skin color, religion, etc. has always been popular with knuckle-draggers. I think it tends to become more pronounced and more frequent in times of social change or upheaval.

After losing Congress, and probably the presidency in November, you can almost smell the desperation on the right.

Desperate people do desperate things. Look for more of this to happen.

"Black folks did not get their rights and the civil rights amendment until the rioting in the 60's. You think there is no connection?"

You're proposing a *riot* of your local Pagans and Unitarians? Gods. Be thankful that's not where we are. That's not our way, nor the ways those people were shot over.

We're trying to *stop* a culture war, not start a shooting one.

Bill wrote: "Try to find any mention the killings or the individual that started all this with his delusion on the Fox News website. It's not there using their search engine. That's media bias for you."

Its true. I also checked out other news organizations and, like Fox News, I used the alleged gunman's name "Adkisson" for the search. This is a mix of what would be called liberal and conservative news outlets. Everyone but Fox has an article about this event, even those overseas. Very telling indeed:

FoxNews.com- 0
CNN.com- 20+
ABCNews.com- 12
BBC.com- 1
Independent.co.uk- 1
MSNBC.com-3
WashingtonPost.com- 11
WashingtonTimes.com- 18
NYTimes.com- 3
NYPost.com- 2
NYSun.com- 2
USAToday.com- 5
Reuters.com- 3
IHT.com - 11 (International Herald Tribune)
lemonde.fr - 1 (Le Monde - France)

SISL,
Most women want to feel protected with their man. It's a fact of life. Women voted for your 'patriarchal' government, and they rejected Hillary in numbers large enough to deny her the white house.
Lumping all men together is just as biased as lumping all women, or blacks, or whites, or asians. Not all men feel/felt they were the almighty kings of their families, not all women felt subservient. Your statement discredits an older generation of men and women that survived the recession, beat the nazis and the empire of japan, and made all manner of sacrifice for the better world we inherited. Eleanor Roosevelt was far more influential and a greater leader than any feminists today. The globalized economy has brought women and children into sweatshop factories in China, Korea, the Philippines, India and other places that make all our cheap products now. It's not helping women, or men, except those raking in obscene profits in greedy, amoral corporations.

"SISL,
"Most women want to feel protected with their man. It's a fact of life."

If we don't need to protect ourselves *from* our man. Feeling protected is a nice change, really, People who blame this guy's berzerk blaze of hatred and blame it on changing gender roles, instead of people scapegoating 'liberals' for their own failures, under the tutelage of hate-speaking conservative media and religion, ...are part of the problem, here.

The real man wasn't the guy who took a shotgun to a kids' church play. It was the Unitarians, ( I *think* those were all men, not sure) who stopped him, at the cost of two of their own lives. Not the man who wanted 'women to know their place' and decided to try and prove it with psycho behavior.

Turns out there were Pagans, there, too.

anti-fascist:
"And read some biology. Until you can survive UNAIDED outside the womb, you are not a person. You're just an orderly growth with the potential for existence."

Unaided? When did you start caring for yourself unaided? At 6 months were you making your own bottles and changing your own diapers? What about 2? 5? Do you then think its okay to kill all children up unto the point when they are old enough to survie by themselves "Unaided"? Please elaborate.

Here's a blog entry from a Unitarian blogger that should circulate everywhere:

By: Nicole Belle

I am a Unitarian.

That should be such a simple, insignificant statement of fact, nothing more than just another box on a census form to tick. Today, however, it feels more like a war cry.

This is a difficult post for me to write because my emotions are so knotted it’s hard to make sense of what I feel. I am ashamed to admit that my first, overwhelming emotion was intense anger - not so much at Jim Adkisson, the man who walked into a Unitarian church in Knoxville and opened fire on innocent people, killing two and injuring eight more. That happens, unfortunately, with all too frequent regularity in America these days, and for a depressingly repetitive litany of reasons - depression, frustration, confused anger and overlooked or ignored mental illness. The Adkisson killings is not an uncommon event these days.

What is, however, was his target - Unitarians. Members of a church renown for its pacifism, compassion and tolerance. We welcome anyone - men and women of any colour and nationality, of any religious or ethnic background, or sexuality. We even welcome conservatives.

My anger instead is concentrated on those people who callously use such vulnerable people, stirring up their bigotry and discontent, egging them to acts of violence. People like Michelle Malkin, Michael Savage, Bill O’Reilly, and Rush Limbaugh who have made lucrative careers out of liberal-bashing. People who write things like “Liberalism is a Mental Health Disorder”, “Let Freedom Ring,” and “The O’Reilly Factor,” - all literature found in Adkisson’s home after the shooting. People like Ann Coulter who advocated attacking liberals with baseball bats. The hate-filled spewage from the right-wing media mavens is and should be held accountable for inciting such acts of violence and murder, those heartless, soulless, conscienceless opportunists who have gleefully participated in encouraging the Adkissons of America to take out their anger and hatred and frustration on liberals.

People died. Good people, decent caring loving people, with friends and families. They had names: Linda Kraeger and Greg McKendry, a sixty-one year old woman and a foster father who heroically sacrificed his life to save children and his fellow congregation. They had friends and family and people who loved them and will grieve for their loss.

I make my living writing, words are my stock and trade. I have no words adequate enough to express my utter contempt and loathing at this moment for every rabid talk show host and every smarmy pundit who ever espoused the killing or injury of another human being because of his or her political beliefs. If I could, I’d have every single one of them arrested as accessories to murder. The blood on their hands is not metaphorical any longer - it’s real. And they know it, if the bizarre backpedalling of the Malkinesque-ilk is to be believed, so desperate to distance themselves from such actual blood and death that they can shamelessly claim Adkisson is really a liberal trying to discredit conservatives. Despicable.

The blogosphere is already ripping into that moral sickness that has so pervaded the rightwing that such acts have become not only possible, but excusable - a couple posters on the Free Republic had little sympathy for the dead; what kind of Christian church, after all, not only accepts gays but would even think of putting on a production of ‘Annie’? Grounds enough for mass murder, to that warped mindset.

But… I am a Unitarian.

And in the wake of the anger is pride. Despite my sadness that people were targeted for their choice of church, I have never before been so proud to be a Unitarian, as well as a liberal. Those liberals the rightwing continue to denigrate as weak-kneed cowards proved to be anything but. McKendry was the first to confront Adkisson, to stop him from going any further into the church, before several men rushed Adkisson after several shots had been fired, his victims already covered in blood. They have names too: A history professor, John Bohstedt, and Jamie Parkey, just ordinary people. But people who still prove the very best in America still exists. ‘Someone grabbed the gun and we just kind of dog-piled him to the floor’, Parkey said. His wife, Amy, described Adkisson - not as a villain, not as an evil man, not with hatred - but as ‘a man who was hurt in the world and feeling nothing was going his way. He turned the gun on people who were mostly likely to treat him lovingly and compassionately and be the ones to help someone in that situation.’ I wept when I read those words.

Because… I am a Unitarian.

I was born and raised in a faith that teaches tolerance and acceptance and forgiveness. At the moment, it’s quite difficult for me to live up to the tenets of my faith, but I’ve lived my entire life following them, if sometimes imperfectly. Hate is easy. Blame and criticism and anger and revenge are easy. It’s what those talk show hosts and political pundits and politicians on the right have exploited to cultivate their poisonous atmosphere - and I don’t want to be anything like them.

So I will choose the hard way. I will try to forgive the Adkissons of the world who have been manipulated and conned into violence. I don’t think I’m quite ready yet to forgive the Coulters and the O’Reillys and the Malkins and the Limbaughs of this world just yet… but I will try to work on not hating them quite as much as I know they hate me. It’s a step. Maybe tomorrow I can do better.

Today Our Kid forwarded me an email from Cilla Raughley, the UUA’s District Executive, sent out to congregational ministers, religious educators, and board presidents. In it she pleaded for calm, patience and wisdom. And asked that Unitarians might want to wear UU T-shirts or jewelry to show their solidarity with those who share our religious values, whether they are Unitarians or not. She also asked that anyone wishing to send a remembrance card on behalf of Greg McKendry and his widow, Barbara, could do so: Tennessee Valley UU Church, 2931 Kingston Pike, Knoxville, TN 37919-4624, as well as to the neighbouring Westside Unitarian Fellowship, 616 Fretz Road, Knoxville, TN 37919-1604, which is where Linda Kraeger would have normally been on a Sunday morning.

And if a reminder was ever needed why I am and will always be a Unitarian, it is that during the candlelight service held in memory of those who died, a few of the children who had been performing in the cast of ‘Annie’ broke into song. They sang ‘Tomorrow’, in a heart-wrenching reminder that the sun will come out tomorrow.

Athena,

That was a stunning must-read from the Unitarian blogger. I was not dry-eyed at the end, to say the least.

It is so hard now not to hate the right wing spewers of venom, the hatebots, the droids of dissension. I know we must not, but I hope I never meet any of them in person. I honestly don't know what I would do. Especially now.

And Fox never covered the story - my God. How can they call themselves journalists with a straight face? How can they even sleep at night?

I am a dedicated Episcopalian, but I think I may go to a Unitarian service to see for myself. I think the two churches have a lot in common.

Wow,

So many intolerant comments by liberals. Honestly, take a look at yourselves sometimes. Really read over this list at what people say about conservatives and the right wing on this blog. How can you call us intolerant?

Take a look at the far left, the Bill Ayers of this world. Both sides of the culture war have people that should be condemed, not just right wingers. No negative comments about liberals from me, there's enough negativity and divisiveness on this blog for today.

It's definitely time to stop the political intolerance in this country. Talk radio has become all liberal-hate, all the time.

It's always been amazing to me the degree to which these conservatives are able to malign Democrats and convince people that they are somehow evil...

Even though Democrats make up 50% of the U.S. and include people who contribute a lot to our society: teachers, doctors, nurses, scientists, the working poor, the educated, and all the good rich people who want to give back to the country that has given them so much.

This isn't a bug in the program, it's a feature. What do you expect when the Republican candidate declares that the Democratic candidate is a traitor who wants America to lose wars?

Being Canadian and viewing this "discussion" from the perspective of a neighbour, or an outsider, I am amazed: not so much by the UU tragedy, nor the endlessly convoluted theories of why; no, the madness and heroism showing both the very best and the absolute worst in humanity are sadly (in this day and age) almost commonplace. The greatest shock, for me, is the savage (as in uncivilized, not noble) dichotomy, which exists between the Liberals and Conservatives. Forgive my naivety...but do you people really hate each other that much?
From the outside looking in it appears, to many, that your nation is on the verge of ripping itself apart. Regardless of sweeping generalizations and a knack for labelling that is difficult to credit, I truly hope each one of you finds within that spark of God, or conscience, or social evolution, which binds together all. A great man once said something along these lines: “though the bonds of affection may be strained, they must never be broken...”

Well, I think you'll find, Leaf, that what conservatives call 'liberal hate' involves us daring to question the authority of the people who incited this fellow to violence.

They call 'us' 'babykillers' and whine 'You're so intolerant' when we don't tacitly agree to *their8 intolerance.

I find it interesting. Someone got me an appointment with a grief and trauma counselor for this morning. He's a survivor of the 1999 church shooting in Fort Worth. I looked up information about this shooting and noted that the shooter was unemployed and blamed conservatives, especially Baptists.

It makes me very sad that you guys are using this tragedy to fuel a liberal vs conservative food fight. You make it sound like a grand conspiracy when it was one evil, self centered, and evil man who murdered my sister. He deprived her of the remaining years of her life and the ability to reflect on God once more before her death. He deprived a small child of a caretaker she depended on.

You are saying that you are wanting to stop liberals and conservatives from fighting, but you are doing the very thing you say you want to stop. I will be glad when this man stands trial and receives justice.

I agree with those contributors who have pointed out the vast difference between the hatred spewed out every day, for hours, by the right-wing media, and the sarcasm and wit of someone like Keith Oberman. I also agree that, over the past two decades, these commentators, with their large megaphones, are almost entirely responsible for the atmosphere of division and anger in our country today.

Having said all that, the most important point I wish to make is that I have not convinced one living soul of what I believe, by adding these comments. Readers are dug in: you either agree with me, or disagree with me, but it has nothing to do with my rhetoric.

Could it be possible for all of us of strong politcal opinions to agree that we suffer from self-righteousness, over-generalization, and rigid, right-wrong, good-evil thinking patterns? If somehow we could get there, it would be a beginning. I happen to think also that either McCain or Obama will try to begin this process, despite the heat of the campaign.

Like Athena, I am also a Unitarian Universalist.

The feelings I have are like those after 9/11.

The Ann Coulters, Bill O'Reillys, Michael Savages, Rush Limbaughs, Sean Hannitys (there are so many of them), have made the US an unsafe place. I wonder if I will be sitting in church when a gunman inspired by their hate, splatters my family brains on the wall.

I am UU because I want to make the world a better place. We give so much of our love, time and money helping others.

My dream is a purple America, one where we sit down and work together. I don't understand why people listen to them. Why is hate more powerful than love?

Actually, it should be noted that Fox has 3 stories on the event, but for some reason they don't show up in the search engine. However, they all strangely avoid the fact that he was apparently a big fan of two of their most popular pundits.

You know what has been interesting to me? You guys from the UU church are talking about tolerance and acceptance out of one side of your mouth, and bashing the crap out of the right wing talk show hosts that David Adkisson was reading materials from out of the other side. Isn’t that kind of ridiculous? Savage or Bill didn’t make David do the things he did. David did the things he did.
The willingness of people to blame right wing conservatives for this shooting is the equivalent of blaming “fast food” restaurants for their children being obese. (i am sure there are some of you out there going, "but it is the fast food!!")

I am sorry for the people that died in this shooting. But the media is making a lot more out of this than it is even worth. He killed 2 people. We should be more worried about what Russia is doing in Georgia at this moment than what David Adkisson is doing in jail.

Ron Moline wrote one of the best posts I've seen in awhile on one of these boards. I have thought that for some time and agree completely that these bitter exchanges never, ever change anyone's mind about anything.

It makes me so sad to see my sister's death used as fuel for a liberal vs conservative and atheist vs Christian food fight. She was a wonderful person. I knew her when she was a Christian. Her heart never changed. She continued to reflect God's love right up to the day she died. She was shot while trying to get a picture of a teenager she'd loved since Torie was a small child.

It's not about liberalism vs conservatism. In some ways Linda Lee was liberal and in other ways she was conservative. She was registered as a Democrat and that put her in the minoriity of what's left of our family. One of my daughters is a Democrat, but the rest of us are Republicans. That didn't stop all of us from loving each other. I like to read and listen to Bill O'Reilly but that didn't stop me from loving Linda Lee.

It saddens me to see the blame taken off of this evil man and put on conservative writers. He's trying to get out of this with an insanity plea. Talk like this only strengthens his case. I don't want to see him win that insanity plea.