George Carlin, Adherent of Frisbeetarianism

When I click on the link for "Carlin on religion" I get taken to Youtube where there is a message that says, "The URL contained a malformed video ID."

When I click on the link for "Carlin on religion" I get taken to Youtube where there is a message that says, "The URL contained a malformed video ID."

Carlin's comedy became more angry, more cynical, more bitter and hopeless as he aged.

I quit listening to him and this is why:

Rape can be Fun, You are All Diseased, The Suicide Guy, Suicide Reality Show, and his last TV Special- Life is Worth Losing..

Forget his afterlife- his life became a testimony to dissipation without redemption.

And here's the utube-

Carlin- Religion is BS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

I've already read a few posts elsewhere expressing the sentiment that, "the old atheist finally got his" - as if death only comes to the non-religious.

Carlin had some brilliant routines, but nobody bats a thousand. He was unique. he made people laugh and - more important - he made people think, an epitaph most of us can only hope to have offered at the end of our days.

Bless you George, whether you like it or not.
Much love from Hawaii!

Dear George;

I hope you get a nice spot on the roof. Enjoy.

See his take on "Saving the Planet". The man was a genius - always speaking truth to the (apparently) hearing impaired masses.

George tell the lord I said "Hello", and I will see him one day, and by the way who's the joke on.

I dunno, Ms. Hoffman: if he went to the Christian Heaven in the way Christians expect, (not that I see a whole lot of appeal in the notion of living with the contents of just my current brain forever and ever, anyway,) I think the answer's clear what he'd get.

New material. :)

Can't beat that. :)

Well, on second thought, I guess that'd only last a while, anyway... Sooner or later, it'd be down to... "Stop me if you heard this one fifteen billion years ago, but....."

Till then, maybe he could liven up the place.

:)

Carlin, like me, grew up Roman Catholic. From its blatant inconsistencies and bold statements that make little sense Carlin had a treasure of comic material no one else dared speak of due to the fear of making Catholics upset. But Carlin was not one to hear something that seemed wrong, or stupid, or a lie, and let it go, and he used comedy to make us all laugh at the Catholic fantasies all catholic children are taught. His bit on "Special Dispensation, Heaven, Hell, Purgatory And Limbo" hit every one of my funny bones and all I could do was laugh and nod in agreement. A great comic, a funny man, a quick whit, a rare breed.

I hope George ends up in a nice on the roof. He deserves it.

Carlin's doing one of the following now for sure:

1) Laughing his butt off, because he was right, religion didn't matter and he gets the eternal piece of the pie.

2) [ ] because that's it, nothing.

3) Or screaming like hell for all eternity, because religion (or at least a relationship with God) does matter.

Given those possible outcomes, how do you you think it wise to conduct your life?

George Carlin never found peace in life and made his living ranting about his "major psychotic f--king hatreds" (his words).

I hope now in death he rests in peace.

'..he made us think'

True. In his later times, he made us think how immoral we can get, yea verily, how immoral we have become.

Give me the hippy-dippy weather man any day. Now that was great comedy. His cynical, base and rude humor that followed his early better-stuff only helped callous the society he was a member of.

For that, he will be greatly, but sadly, remembered.

We've lost a rarity - the thinking person's stand-up comic - thought-provoking and laugh-until-your-face-hurts-and-you-wet-your pants hilarious. Who's going to take on that role now? Dave Chapelle? Lisa Lampinelli? Dane Cook? Jeff Foxworthy? Not bloody likely.

Time to get out my well-worn copies of "Napalm and Silly Putty," "Brain Droppings," and "When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops?"

Carlin will be remembered for his irreverence and his insights.

Last week, the media fell over themselves eulogizing one of there own, Tim Russert. Tim, we were told, was deeply religious and a practicing Catholic. We were told that Tim "died" of a heart attack.

Today, the headline on CNN.com reads: "Heart Failure Kills Comedian George Carlin." The media is busy informing us that George was an atheist. We're told that George was "killed" by heart failure.

Hmm?

I wonder what the difference is between "dying" of a heart attack and being "killed" by heart failure. Dying seems so much more benign than being killed. I wonder if god reserves dying for the faithful while he goes about killing the unfaithful, often with the same diseases (I don't doubt that Carlin could have done a pretty good routine on the subject along the lines of his "football v baseball" routine).

I don't know why the media says some people die while others are killed by the same disease, but what I do know if that 5 years from now, the general public will still be talking about George Carlin, while Tim Russert will be but a faint memory in most people's minds. I don't say that with malice, but with a nod to what's real. After all, people still talk about Lenny Bruce. Chet Huntley? Not so much.

When I was just a kid sometimes I would watch him on TV with his short hair. He was so young and funny and promising.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMd5qaRlJ20

When I think of how his life ended- I feel sad for him..

"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" (Mark 8:36)

Carlin railed against Catholicism, particularly the concept of limbo.

The Church came down on him for his irreverence, Yet last year, the Church finally - and to its credit - fully embraced the Carlin Doctrine on the dogma of limbo.

That's a pretty amazing turnaround. Considering how long it took the RCC to turnaround on its anti-Galileo position, I wonder how much more of the Carlin Doctrine the Church is planning on embracing over the next, say, decade?

BTW - I wonder what the average Catholic feels about the fact that Carlin was right all along when it comes to limbo. Does it give them pause on other articles of faith? Perhaps ol' George was a prophet worth listening to!

George Carlin was a genius and like other geniuses (like Einstein) he clearly stated his utter lack of belief in a personal God or in any other form of religion - only to find that people of far less intellect are apologizing for him only a day after his death. Carlin didn't believe in an afterlife, he didn't suddenly convert on his deathbed, and no amount of pitiful wishful thinking will change that. George is dead and permanently gone. If you liked him, do what you can so that he may be remembered for a long time.

I hope that link gets repaired to the video of Carlin on religion and I hope everyone who visits this site sees it. Carlin wasn't just joking - he meant what he said and I am so happy that he did. Perhaps George will open a few more minds and inspire some more critical thinking even now after he is gone.

The worst punishment for Carlin would be the Christian paradise: Boredom for ethernity! Unless he gets Saint Peter's job. Then even Satan will behave to get to heaven. I wouldn't like to be in the pants of all the suicide bombers. Carlin will have an ethernal party mocking them about their 70 virgins.

DBCJR writes: "Given those possible outcomes, how do you you think it wise to conduct your life?"

Keep that up DBCJR and you just might scare me into believing in your authoritarian sky buddy too!

Thanks for laughs George.

If your faith, beliefs and morals can't take a bit of ribbing, the fault lies not in the person doing the ribbing, but in yourself. (see riots over cartoons).

The roof at my house has an opening, but I think God (and she is pretty P.O. with the rest of us), has a special place for you.

Thanks for laughs George.

If your faith, beliefs and morals can't take a bit of ribbing, the fault lies not in the person doing the ribbing, but in yourself. (see riots over cartoons).

The roof at my house has an opening, but I think God (and she is pretty P.O.'d with the rest of us), has a special place for you.

Carlin's primary rant was against stupidity. He made a career out of pointing out stupidities, from the mundane ("why do Americans park in our driveways but drive on our parkways") to the memorable (Seven dirty words).

To Carlin, hell would be an eternity surrounded by stupidity. In that sense, the worst kind of hell would be to end up in the Xian heaven, surrounded by a god who isn't too bright and a bunch of believers who are even dimmer.

"I wonder what the difference is between "dying" of a heart attack and being "killed" by heart failure."

George Carlin had a long history of heart disease. His first heart attack was in the 1970s. His battled it almost all his long life. It may account for his bouts of depresion..

dbcjr:
Given those possible outcomes, how do you you think it wise to conduct your life?
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Pascal's Wager leaves out at least one possibility: that there is one and only one god, and it isn't JHWH. If that's the case, then your Christianity will be as useless as you seem to think my Paganism and Carlin's atheism are.

So, since none of us knows for sure, I figure my best bet is to do what I can to be a decent person right here, right now, and leave the afterlife, if there is any, to take care of itself.

I used to watch George Carlin as Mr. Conductor on Shinning Time Station when I was little, and he stayed with me as I grew; I enjoyed his comedy routines and books as well. As many people have posted, he will be missed.

May his soul find a nice sunny spot on the roof. He deserves nothing less.

dbcjr - Are you really so disillusioned that you believe that Pascal's Wager doesn't have a hole in its logic that is so large even god couldn't plug it up?

You do realize that there is more than one religion right? And that belief in the incorrect "god" also will send you to hell? So now let's reexamine

I could live my life as a good person (albeit angry, but who wouldn't be if they were traveling with both eyes open?) pointing out the flaws in the system and bring a slight reprieve of the redundancy and pain in many people's lives. I could inspire many to examine the inequalities and have some be moved to action. Then when I pass, while my body will decompose and I will cease to be, I will be immortal in the fact that people for many generations to come will remember and quote me.

or

I could sit in church every week, toss 10% of my income to...whatever the church wants. I could spew hatred at many different groups while quoting "Love the sinner, hate the sin!" as if the power of judgment was passed from jesus christ directly to me. I could help the starving in third world nations...with the caveat that they hear about and accept my god. Then when I die, I realize that one of the thousands of other religions or sect of said religions was the one true religion and I am cast to hell...

makes those hours sitting on a hard bench seem like a waste to me.

I'll tell you what...I won't tell you how to live your life and you don't use the death of someone to draw a conjecture that has been refuted millions of times and that can be seen as being completely empty and narrow minded on even the slightest evaluation.

thanks!

May his soul find a nice sunny spot on the roof

Uh, just where in the human body is that located. Nobody's ever been able to find it.

TJ:

DBCJR writes: "Given those possible outcomes, how do you you think it wise to conduct your life?"

Pascal's Wager. Yet again. Yawn!

The truth is, if there is no afterlife/god, you'll never know, will you? If consciousness ends at death (which by all indications it does) then you'll never know, will you?

That's the beauty of it all. If you're a believer in the afterlife, you're not disappointed that it doesn't exist. If you're a non-believer, you don't have a rude awakening. Why? Why, because death IS it.

It's like being at a funeral - everyone is sad to some extent...except for the dead person, who isn't...anything.

BTW - why anyone would waste a good part of their life "conducting their life" as if god or an afterlife existed is the height of egoism.

Were we to tally up all of the hours and centuries wasted in the worship of non-existent supernatural beings, time that could have been spent doing something tangible and useful to better the human condition (not to mention the number of religious wars that could have been avoided!) we might have a better appreciation for the vacuousness of Pascal's bargain-counter bromide.

I doubt that Pascal's sucker's bet ever entered into the equation for Carlin who chose to live his life free of the cheap fears that religion seeks to impose.

FunTravelAdventure:
May his soul find a nice sunny spot on the roof

Uh, just where in the human body is that located. Nobody's ever been able to find it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's the top of your oral cavity - the spot where peanut butter always gets stuck.

[ducking thrown objects]

George Carlin was an atheist. He did not believe in an afterlife or heaven. So respect his beliefs and quit saying he's partying on a rooftop somewhere. According to him- he is no more.

And don't expect a rainbow at his funeral- that's for believers who have hope.

In spite of George's professed beliefs (or lack thereof) I think he was pleasantly surprised last night when he got to where he has gone. And I'm also quite confident that Mother and Father God have spent this entire day laughing their asses off along with George and all of his friends who preceded him there.

We loved you George...you dared to be different and because of that, you truly made a difference.

teresa writes:

"I wonder what the difference is between "dying" of a heart attack and being "killed" by heart failure."

George Carlin had a long history of heart disease. His first heart attack was in the 1970s. His battled it almost all his long life. It may account for his bouts of depresion.."

We also learned last week that Tim Russert had long been treated for a bad heart. That he was on medication for the condition, in fact.

Tom Brokaw spoke at Russert's memorial service and went on at some length about Russert enjoying his Rolling Rock beer. From the response of the attendees, it seemed that everyone there knew that Tim enjoyed his beer as much - and as often as - as the next guy.

No one seemed to disparage Russert's drinking as being a contributor to his heart attack, yet all reports on Carlin make a point of mentioning his troubled history with drug abuse. I'd assume that anyone on heart medication is told to lay off the brewskies, yet it seems that Russert chose to ignore this to some extent. Even his attending physician said that Russert didn't always follow his advice on treating his illness.

The facts on the ground: Russert died at 58, Carlin at 71. Carlin was in pretty good physical trim while Russert was obviously overweight.

Of the two, whose life choices made for the longer life? Obviously, Carlin did. Yet you'd never know it from the way the media is reporting or not reporting the dietary/health choices of these two individuals.

I can't help thinking that were the believer/non-believer roles reversed in this instance, that the media coverage of their respective deaths would follow suit.

its so strange to me that so many folks believe that there is an afterlife when there is no proof or evidence of one. sounds like alot of wishful thinking. i didn't exist before i was born so why is it so difficult to believe i may not exist after i'm dead?? there may be an afterlife, i don't know. but i believe that there probably is not one.

Carlin recognized that fear is no justification for belief. It is sad that much of society employs willful self-delusion in order to adjust for this. Pascal's Wager is silly.

In retort to the bible quotation, I offer a quotation that I think explains his rationale:

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
- Thomas Jefferson

mr mark posts-

"Today, the headline on CNN.com reads: "Heart Failure Kills Comedian George Carlin." The media is busy informing us that George was an atheist. We're told that George was "killed" by heart failure."

Hmm.

Links please.

How interesting that the news media gave so much coverage to one of their own, Tim Russert, while giving the usual level of dead celebrity coverage to George Carlin. Ironically, in the long term, Carlin's rants and pithy observations spoke truth to power more than Russert's "inquisitions" ever did.

George, I bow down to the Sun in memory of you. And I pray to Joe Pesci to watch over you.

I just read in today's paper that some 90% of Americans believe in a god. I'd like to see, and I'll bet George would too,that same survey done with those same people connected to a lie
detector! I'll give anyone in the country 5 to 1 odds that the results would be far different.

Mike -

The Carlin "Killed" headline/link was at CNN.com. Don't know if it's still there, but it was there an hour ago. Check it out for yourself. I didn't bother doing a screen capture..not my problem.

mr mark

In your rush to compare Carlin to Russert- you've accused the media of bias that you cannot verify. I searched google news for (carlin killed) and found nothing. A search for (carlin atheist) had only 14 hits.

"Tday, the headline on CNN.com reads: "Heart Failure Kills Comedian George Carlin." The media is busy informing us that George was an atheist. We're told that George was "killed" by heart failure."

Recant.

Ms. Hoffman writes, "Carlin grew up Roman Catholic in Washington Heights..."

According to one of his albums, it was Morningside Heights.

Er, Mike, I won't recant as the CNN headline I published was a cut-n-paste from their website.

Perhaps they've changed it. Not my problem. If you don't believe me, that's your problem, not mine. If it's bugging you so much, why not call CNN and ask if they've changed it? Again, not my problem.

i've never felt that george completely ruled god out-
certainly he was anti-religion (or mostly the crazy behavior of people under the influence)
definitely he questioned-
but i always felt he was talking about gos as he believed him to be at the end of this very funny commentary -
i especially have always liked the idea that the answer to the big question 'why are we here?' is plastic-
ive always found this bit to be very spiritual-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtqSPahiMxw

you tell me what the difference is between god and the big electron-

i guess the botoom line is that george was so cool everyone wants to claim him-

This thread = waste of time

Try-

http://www.cnn.com/2008/SHOWBIZ/06/23/carlin.memories.irpt/?iref=mpstoryview

neo:
Have you heard of the phenomenon called "near death experiences". This is when people who are clinically dead and are subsequently resucitated report that they've seen themselves from a position somewhere above their bodies and many report that they see a long tunnel and a white light on the other side.. That might be the proof of life after death that you've been looking for. There is also, of course the eyewitness accounts in scripture of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead and subsequently, rising himself on Easter Sunday.

anon: The pew research center reports that a total of 16% are unaffiliated with any particular religion, but 12.1 % still stay they believe in God, 2.4% report themselves as Agnostic and only 1.6% report themselves as Atheists. Atheists in the US are a small but very vocal minority.

" paul c:
"Have you heard of the phenomenon called "near death experiences". This is when people who are clinically dead and are subsequently resucitated report.... (clip) ...That might be the proof of life after death that you've been looking for. "

Well, I dunno about Mr. Lazarus, but I've been through that. Not to spoil the fun, and I wouldn't say it 'proves' anything, but, ...Still Pagan. :)

I also remember George Carlin from Shining Time Station along with Ringo Starr in the '80s and '90s.

Both Mr. Conductors I found out about their pasts a little later.

George Carlin also appeared nervously on U.S. Television for the first time on The Mike Douglas Show, the same week John Lennon and Yoko Ono were on, in 1972.

Finally with the discussion about the afterlife and George Carlin, I'll leave a quote from the last new song from George Harrison in 2002 after he died:

"There are no edges / There is no side / And Oh whoa / We pay the price / With a spin of the wheel / And a roll of the dice / Oh yeah you pay your fare /

But If you don't know where you're going / Any road will take you there"

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Hebrews 9:27-28

We can't know for sure where George Carlin is now, but each of us who remains has an opportunity to think about where we want to spend eternity.

Statements of "I died so I know" are generally useless.
Number one: many of the "floating over my body" are merely 'displaced presence'. You are not completely unconscious and your brain is transferring "tactile" data into "visual" data; you are 'seeing' what you are in fact 'feeling'.

Number 2: who has the presence of mind to time the 'tunnel' -about 6 to 8 seconds- check the walls -striated- estimate the frequency of the 'light' -50 MC- consider truth -derivable from basic principals- ask for the meaning of life -love (sit down by yourself and 'do' it) and understanding (either micro or macro -they are both the same)? Who could do all that?

If you consider it all your life as George
did, you will come pretty close.

Frisbeetariarism? No.

There are only two choices: Heaven or Hell. It's your choice.

Luke 16:22-31 gives an indication of what to expect should you choose hell.

George had many God-given talents and intelligence that he used for his own amusement and profit. As a "thinking man", he might have pondered how so many people willingly accept an unproven, weak theory that states that in a world where everything we observe degenerates, decomposes, dissolves, rusts, oxidizes, and moves to a state of equilibrium (or a state with less organization), the most complex (organic) machines with the most complex software (genetic variation) & firmware (built in programming) in the world just happened to build themselves through unknown, unintelligent, random processes. The ONLY source of information is intelligence, and information REQUIRES a complex machine to read or interpret it (or it is useless, & therefore not information). The most simple, basic form of life possible requires a large amount of information (if only to reproduce itself). That organism must be able to consume a fuel/food source and protect itself from a harsh environment (any environment with oxygen or water) with a membrane that lets the good stuff in & keeps the bad stuff out (or else it might need a complex immune system). These are the requirements of life that scientists agree on.

The basic building blocks of life do not form, they break down and decompose. The individual probabilities of amino acids forming in sufficient quantities and then forming sufficient quantities of complex proteins is considered ZERO in any true field of science (especially in the non-natural form that they always appear in life). But in the fantasy world of evolution one simply states that “given enough time, anything is possible”. In this fairytale for adults stacked upon impossible probabilities, extremely complex, optimized organisms with extremely complex cardiovascular, respiratory, reproductive, nervous, immune, integumentary, digestive, endocrine, musculoskeletal, lymphatic and optic systems just happened to design themselves. The most complex system in the world is not the human eye (as some atheists have postulated), but the single cell (an inseminated egg) that contains all of the organic machinery and information necessary to build all of the above complex systems including the human eye. Genetics do not explain everything; they do not explain the complex interaction of enzymes and hormones required to time the growth of the organism from egg to an adult human.

George might have pondered the many irreducibly complex systems (that require the existence of many complex parts to already be present before any useful, selectable or “favored” functionality exists) like flight and sonar, each of which had to evolve separately for insects, mammals & birds, and for bats & dolphins. Anyone who examines the flight capabilities of the bumblebee (impossible), bird feathers, bat sonar, the built in capability of certain spiders to quickly build intricate & perfectly symmetrical webs, and any of the above mentioned systems can not avoid the observation of DESIGN. Does anyone really believe that the bombardier beetle formed two chambers and the ability to fill each with a substance toxic to life (hydrogen peroxide & a derivative of cyanide), and the ability to inject the two together to produce scalding liquid in the face of danger without a designer (George might have asked how many died trying)? “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse” – Rom 1:20.

With George’s constant play on words, he might have laughed at scientists seeking planets with water, saying that life could have formed there because water is the “solvent of life”. Does anyone know what a solvent does?

Mr Mark: “I can't help thinking that were the believer/non-believer roles reversed in this instance, that the media coverage of their respective deaths would follow suit.”

Excellent point! (also like your other points about Carlin, e.g., Limbo).

I think the tone of the reaction is very subtle and even subconscious. Russert was a good guy, “a man of faith,” struck down when he was relatively young. Carlin was irreverent, a self-defined bad boy, a professional cynic and an open atheist who lived to be an old man.

After the Russert memorial service at the Kennedy center last week, much was made of the rainbow that appeared outside the theatre right after the service had ended with a rousing rendition of “Somewhere over the rainbow.” Meanwhile, just tonight, as I walked out of a building a few miles from the Kennedy Center under similar circumstances (a quick afternoon shower, followed by sunshine, I was greeted by a beautiful rainbow. Everyone on the street was smiling in appreciation. And I thought – is anyone wondering what recently deceased person caused this particular rainbow? I doubt it. Is anyone listening to “Somewhere over the rainbow” on their car radio, thinking this is an obvious sign from God? Probably.

George Carlin could probably make a memorable joke out of it. I just marvel at the human imagination and its desire to make order out of chaos.

ThinkingMan: you give thinking a bad name. water is referred to as the solvent of life in a rhetorical sense, not literally, or to the extent that it is used literally, not in the sense of acetone, for example, but rather in the sense of a substance that facilitates reaction. cheap rhetoric passing for a rebuttal of science - give it up.

Hey, Kime - here's a link. I found it by googling
"Heart failure kills comedian George Carlin"

http://rss.crossmap.com/article/heart-failure-kills-comedian-george-carlin/story296742.htm

Heart failure kills comedian George Carlin
Heart failure kills comedian George Carlin. Source: Cnn.com Published June 23, 2008 @ 1:05pm PDT. George Carlin earned fame with his bathroom humor, ...
rss.crossmap.com/article/heart-failure-kills-comedian-george-carlin/story296742.htm - 1 hour ago - Similar pages

Hey, Mike - here's a link. I found it by googling
"Heart failure kills comedian George Carlin"

http://rss.crossmap.com/article/heart-failure-kills-comedian-george-carlin/story296742.htm

Heart failure kills comedian George Carlin
Heart failure kills comedian George Carlin. Source: Cnn.com Published June 23, 2008 @ 1:05pm PDT. George Carlin earned fame with his bathroom humor, ...
rss.crossmap.com/article/heart-failure-kills-comedian-george-carlin/story296742.htm - 1 hour ago - Similar pages

Christian: "Frisbeetariarism? No. There are only two choices: Heaven or Hell. It's your choice."

Lighten up, Christian, it's a JOKE!

EF marvels-

"at the human imagination and its desire to make order out of chaos."

What about your body's intricate design? Consider just the physiology of your eyesight- then think beyond to encompass imagination, conception, discernment, and foresight. You've got an awesome tool in that head of yours. You are a living and breathing example of "order out of chaos". And that "order out of chaos" allows you the ability to "marvel".

No matter what we say or think, GOD has the last say so. Remeber GOD's grace!!!!!!!!

No matter what we say or think, GOD has the last say so. Remember GOD's grace!!!!!!!!

'Thinkingman'

"George had many God-given talents and intelligence that he used for his own amusement and profit."

Wow, so dependent on the notion of 'Intelligent Design,' and you still can't figure such a God left room for a laugh.

Interesting.

" As a "thinking man", he might have pondered how so many people willingly accept an unproven, weak theory that states that in a world where everything we observe degenerates, decomposes, dissolves, rusts, oxidizes, and moves to a state of equilibrium (or a state with less organization),"

Every *closed system, eventually.*

This doesn't mean that systems which tend to sustain themselves and replicate don't tend to sustain themselves and replicate.

If the strawman you try and set up about an ignorant interpretation of thermodynamic 'entropy' were really what science shows, you wouldn't have a computer to type that on.

It's a false premise of your absolutist thinking to even *leap to the notion* that 'If structure isn't eternal, it can't happen at all.'

There's plenty of explanation for what's happening now and has happened occurring, even if the stelliferous era is finite.

You're the one who thinks the fact that entropy is observed is insufficiently 'eternal' means that the universe is impossible and requires a brain like yours to make it.

Entropy doesn't mean the physical universe is anywhere near out of energy, yet.

You just find the implications un-thinkable.

Don't worry, though. This is only one universe, if you're overbooked the next *trillion years* or something.

Shall we go on?

Jesse says: "You are a living and breathing example of "order out of chaos".

Just wondering, Jesse, do you have a larger point here? Are you suggesting that God had something to do with this. If so, how do you know?

If that's not what you were getting at, please excuse. But still, I wonder - what did you mean?

Those who prefer 'belief' to 'theory' and
'faith' to 'proof',

would often insist that:

you cannot go from '2+2=4' to 'e=Mc2' without going through

'and then a Miracle happens'.

blue7053: you cannot go from '2+2=4' to 'e=Mc2' without going through and then a Miracle happens'.

It is a miracle than man progress in maths and physics to go from 2+2= 4 to e=Mc2 for all his recorded stupidity throughout history.

It's a miracle! I insist2.

Sentient Meat:
"Carlin recognized that fear is no justification for belief. It is sad that much of society employs willful self-delusion in order to adjust for this. Pascal's Wager is silly."

The skeptics prayer:
"God, I don't know whether you even exist. I'm a skeptic. I doubt. I think you may be only a myth. But I'm not certain (at least when I'm completely honest with myself). So if you do exist, and if you really did promise to reward all seekers, you must be hearing me now. So I hereby declare myself a seeker, a seeker of the truth, whatever it is and wherever it is. I want to know the truth and live the truth. If you are the truth, please help me."

It is the most unreasonable thing possible to refuse to even seek the truth about God. At best you have nothingness to look to, at worst an eternity separated from God. The case for naturalism is not as good as you think it is. What is silly, is an eternity of loneliness because of intellectual pride. Every believer has doubt...it is not a sin.

Jesus replies, "Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

When I heard about him dying my heart sank. I couldn't help but think, he's probably burning in hell right now. I used to admire his comedy, but the older he got the more bitter and angry and not funny he got. To the point of openly and publicly blaspheming the God who gave him his every breath. I just hope someone close to him tried to convey the true message of the gospel to him and not useless Catholic works righteousness. We can only be saved by repentace and faith in the shed blood of Jesus that paid our fine for the laws (10 commandments) that we all have broken.

I was sad to hear of mr. carlins passing; he gave me many laughs. I did'nt share his lack of faith in God, although I can certainly understand the varied and apparent contradictions that caused him,and many others, to lash out. My hope is that after all the ranting and raving - some of which was quite true - George Carlin finally met the Risen Christ, bowed humbly before Him, and found peace at the last. Remember the thief crucified with Jesus.

E Fav- Here's what I wonder-

Mr. Mark says: Today, the headline on CNN.com reads: "Heart Failure Kills Comedian George Carlin." The media is busy informing us that George was an atheist. We're told that George was "killed" by heart failure.(ie: atheists are killed and believers die)

The referenced article you found- doesn't mention George Carlin was an atheist.

So- do atheists have a big chip on their shoulders because they do not believe in God or do atheists not believe in God because they have a big chip on their shoulders??

"Jesus replies, "Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Well, FH, maybe you could find a little of your much-crowed about 'compassion' regarding the faith of those who don't see nuffin in what you say.

I mean, you guys kind of got a recurring wet dream about people who didn't obey you in life about masturbation and 'Some words you can't say on television' bowing and scraping before yer 'Lord' when they die,

Frankly, if the universe is somehow like you say, I think it'd be the comedians with the guts to look yer 'Lord' in the eye.

Say, 'Hey, you know, the funniest thing just happened.'

Get it?

Well, since you censored my post, I called upon the spirit of George Carlin. He came to me and told me to tell you to go to hell, where he is waiting for you.

I thought George Carlin was funny, relevant and right on about religion. He is dead, he has not gone on to see God, he and I agree that no such being exists. If you choose to delude yourself into believing in some God figure knock yourself out.

You know what happens when you die? Your dead, thats it, thats all. If the best God can do to prove he is with us is send his supposed son 2,000 years ago and expect us not to have grave doubts if he did exist he would just be lame, incompetent, careless, cruel, unloving, divisive, ignorant, evil, intolerant, etc. Choose it, I am one who thinks religion poisons man, not any moral indicator, nothing but delusional fools would believe in such stupidity. Yea I know the Imaginary guy is peeved at me. I am so worried lmaoooo.

I can show you a billion reasons why I refuse to believe in such a fallacy, any God figure who would allow the horrible suffering of the children, the elderly and the helpless is nothing but an idiot, so I rather disbelieve than think he works in mysterious ways, nothing mysterious to those who suffer, if he did exist he would be an absent God, incompetent God.

I went in search of God and found Atheism. I think all religion is wrong, none of it is caring, loving, it promotes hate, etc. (see above). I know you all just know, you feel it, yea well I think if God existed he could do a bit better than that, don't you?

Oh, yeah, and as for him 'mocking Catholicism,'

You bet he was mocking Catholicism.

While the 'pious' were letting people get raped in the name of 'Serious piety.'

You tell *me* how you arrange justice in your head.

George and Jesus are probably up there eating pork chops and laughing at all of the silly people that were judging him.

GC: "Ya know, I never believed in you or your Father."

JC: "That's okay, George. You made us laugh anyway."

I saw Carlin in Las Vegas at the Stardust in 2004. Man, he was awesome. Hubby and I looked at each other tonight and both said that we were glad we saw him when we did.

Either that, or he's on the roof looking down at all of us and laughing.

Hee, Athena, are we showing Pagan bias here about the notion that if God/s have a sense of humour, it's not sadistic? :)

Paganplace

"Well, FH, maybe you could find a little of your much-crowed about 'compassion' regarding the faith of those who don't see nuffin in what you say."

What I say, nor my compassion matter much...I don't judge others, still coming to grips with my own faults, honestly. One of which is a lack of compassion, ironically.

Good day to you sir.

Hey, "just wondering" I'm wondering about your thought process. I'm having trouble following it, and thus am having difficulty with your question:

"do atheists have a big chip on their shoulders because they do not believe in God or do atheists not believe in God because they have a big chip on their shoulders"

Were you being sarcastic? (easy - Just answer yes or no). I will say, your question aside, that atheists I know don't believe in God because there is no evidence for God.

Also, It would have been nice if you had acknowledged that a link with the words "Heart Failure Kills Comedian George Carlin" existed. Mr Mark didn't say that the word "atheist" was in that particular article and I'm not sure why you mentioned it, unless it was gotcha attempt, sort of indicative of a chip on YOUR shoulder.

Suggestion - if you want to find examples of Carlin referred to as an atheist, just Google . Easy - I found 219,000 entries. Many of the ones I checked were positive.

Hello E Favorite,

I don't quite recall George Carlin ever calling himself an atheist though he is one and did thrash religion in his jokes. He did say he is a sceptic. That he was, on everything. Even on death.

Love his joke about death. The one about people so afraid of death that they won't say someone is dead, but "pass away". And that, he said he would do - to "pass away".

Best regards
"J"

I learned about Catholicism from Carlin. Despite years of catechism my neighbors when I was growing up could never explain any of it. That's the difference between believers and non-believers. Non-believers are the ones who paid attention in Sunday school and thought "WTF?" Carlin's albums were the first validation that I wasn't alone in finding the stuff being said in church very strange and contradictory. I learned about Catholicism from Carlin. Despite years of catechism my neighbors when I was growing up could never explain any of it. That's the difference between believers and non-believers. Non-believers are the ones who paid attention in Sunday school and thought "WTF?" Carlin's albums were the first validation that I wasn't alone in finding the stuff being said in church very strange and contradictory. I would still like to hear a comedian riff on the cannibalism in the communion ceremony, but maybe it's enough that Carlin's "spirit" will live on in the freedom we all have to discuss stuff like that.

"Suggestion - if you want to find examples of Carlin referred to as an atheist, just Google"

E Fav-

Narrow your search to google news and you will find 14 hits of his atheism noted at death.

Then search Carlin's death and you will find over 5000 hits. At his death- George Carlin's disbelief in God is not often noted by the media.

Atheist I am:
I don't know what caused it, but your recent comments show tremendous anger toward God. How can you be so angry at someone who you don't feel exists? It sounds like some child you know has suffered. Its unfortunate, but everyone has challenges in life. If there weren't challenges, there would be no growth. Sometimes those challenges are pain and failure and suffering. Sometimes to us directly, sometimes to those we love. Successfully navigating these challenges depends on the love we show and our fortitude in working through those challenges. Keep in mind that success is challenging too. Many "successful" people are also unlikeable because they become arrogant and self centered.

If you can step back from it all for a few minutes and contemplate, I think you will see that every person gets a share of the good and the bad in life. Sometimes great good can come out of very distressful circumstances. I believe that God makes it that way so we can demonstrate our love for him and each other in different environments. If we chose to do so, then we will join him in heaven. If on the other hand, we separate ourselves from God on earth, we will live under the same circumstances in the next life.

It is important to know that although Carlin´s stage persona could be pretty dark, particularly over the past few years (his concert t-shirts read ¨F%$k Hope¨) his generosity of spirit and sweetness was apparent to anyone lucky enough to meet him offstage. He said in an interview several years ago, and I am paraphrasing, "I have no hope whatsoever for humanity, but I always find something I love in every human I meet." I think there are plenty of people who feel the same way who are not necessarily pessimists.

I am glad to have met him and I was surprised by his generosity and friendliness, especially having followed his stage career for so long I expected a bitter cantankerous old coot, and was taken by surprise by how sweet he was to me and how generous he was with his time for me, just a fan looking for an autograph.

Anyone who loves language and hates bullsh$t should mourn his loss.

Hello Atheist I Am : )

You : I thought George Carlin was funny, relevant and right on about religion.

* And what about the other stuff he made jokes on? Not funny, relevant and right?

You : He (Carlin) is dead, he has not gone on to see God, he and I agree that no such being exists.

* Okay. He's in Limbo? Or still can't get his foot in the door to heaven.

You : If you choose to delude yourself into believing in some God figure knock yourself out.

* Thanks, but we're not taking opium as an opiate as Karl Marx posited, and we are very much wide awake.

You : You know what happens when you die? Your dead, thats it, thats all.

* Actually, that would depend on whether you get cremated or buried when you die. Get buried and the worms eat you. Not a bad idea actually. For a healthy colony of worms can raise two inches of soil in ten years.

You : If the best God can do to prove he is with us is send his supposed son 2,000 years ago and expect us not to have grave doubts if he did exist he would just be lame, incompetent, careless, cruel, unloving, divisive, ignorant, evil, intolerant, etc.

* Are you describing man lame and ignorant and all that? Don't you know, doubt is an element of faith? That makes you an uber-believer.

You : Choose it, I am one who thinks religion poisons man, not any moral indicator, nothing but delusional fools would believe in such stupidity.

* Yes, your made your choice. Congratulations for taking out the religious venom. Ops, sorry, still in there? The venon on religion?

You : Yea I know the Imaginary guy is peeved at me. I am so worried lmaoooo.

* How can you tell some imaginary guy is peeved at you?

You : I can show you a billion reasons why I refuse to believe in such a fallacy, any God figure who would allow the horrible suffering of the children, the elderly and the helpless is nothing but an idiot, so I rather disbelieve than think he works in mysterious ways, nothing mysterious to those who suffer, if he did exist he would be an absent God, incompetent God.

* I think a billion reasons to give on anything is technically and practically impossible. And I never knew you expect God to take care of children, the elderly, the helpless etc. So, good of you to sack God from being your butler and maid for being incompetent and absent. Can't have that.

You : I went in search of God and found Atheism. I think all religion is wrong, none of it is caring, loving, it promotes hate, etc. (see above).

* Have you tried the lost and found department in the search for God? And, yes, I know. Terrible is it not? All those bumper stickers saying, "Jesus is Hate".

You : I know you all just know, you feel it, yea well I think if God existed he could do a bit better than that, don't you?

* Well, we all now know how you feel now. Thanks for sharing with us. I speak to God and chastise God for not doing more and better as you wanted. Oh wait, it's a busy signal. Wait, there's a pre-recorded message. Ahhhh....I see.

Ah well. What can I tell you. The pre-recorded message says billions of fellows are either calling God to do this and that, or to lodge complaints that God was not doing enough. And I will have to wait my turn to request for something from God to complaint to God about God and God's responsibilities towards me and my priorities.

If I wore a hat, I'd tip it to Paul C. And Terry, thanks for the interesting info. There's always much more to people than we think!

Dear E Fav -

Thanks for locating that CNN header about George Carlin being "killed." Maybe Mike will now "recant" his attacks on me.

That said, going back through my original post, I can see how some people may have thought that I was saying that the CNN.com article that bore the headline "Heart Failure Kills Comedian George Carlin" also went on about Carlin being an atheist. It didn't, and I didn't mean to imply that it did. Here's what I originally wrote:

"Last week, the media fell over themselves eulogizing one of there own, Tim Russert. Tim, we were told, was deeply religious and a practicing Catholic. We were told that Tim "died" of a heart attack.

"Today, the headline on CNN.com reads: "Heart Failure Kills Comedian George Carlin." The media is busy informing us that George was an atheist. We're told that George was "killed" by heart failure."

My writing was unclear here. I had heard and read on media outside of CNN that Carlin was an atheist. My first paragraph which references the media and Tim Russert used the term media in the general sense. That was the sense that I intended to carry forward in my sentence, "The media is busy informing us that George was an atheist." Sandwiching that statement - which was based on media reports outside of the CNN.com article - between two sentences that directly referenced CNN was unfortunate and placed an onus on CNN that I did not specifically intend nor that CNN merited. So, I owe Mike and CNN an apology for a mangled piece of composition that was entirely my doing.

And, I should probably credit CNN for going back and replacing the offensive "killed" headline with their "Carlin died" version. At least they had the decency to do that. I found the headline offensive, and I'm happy that someone at CNN probably felt the same thing.

Hi, FH:

" FH:

Paganplace

""Well, FH, maybe you could find a little of your much-crowed about 'compassion' regarding the faith of those who don't see nuffin in what you say.""

"What I say, nor my compassion matter much...I don't judge others,"

Is that why you come quote judgmental Bible verses at the insufficiently-pious dead?

" still coming to grips with my own faults, honestly. One of which is a lack of compassion, ironically. Good day to you sir."

Ma'am, actually, or, maybe in religious contexts, Reverend, or, I guess, 'M'lady.' Eh, who am I kidding, maybe I'm like a senior NCO of eclectic Paganism, call me a 'Fluff-gunny.' :) (in-joke)

Ok, just don't 'sir' me. Work for a living. :)

"Is that why you come quote judgmental Bible verses at the insufficiently-pious dead?"

Not really sure how the verse I quoted was judgemental...but we all see what we want to...eh.

Work for a livin...ex-military??? Same here.

PAGANPLACE...in all seriousness, I wish you well. I thought George was amazingly funny...Bill and Ted's Adv., was just the best.

I hope your search for truth leads you to the answers you seek. That's all any of us can do., good luck to you.

I've been interested in the comments here, since I had never heard of George Carlin until today, but of course had watched Tim Russert many times, and enjoyed his genuinity and searching questions.

Both of these men seem to have had tremendous personal authenticity (i.e. no hypocrisy). Since that seems to top the list of what would seem to square with Biblical "good things to be", then perhaps they both have had the pleasant surprise of finding themselves in a place where everyone is authentic, true to their truest selves, right down to the core.

Hi, FH:

""Is that why you come quote judgmental Bible verses at the insufficiently-pious dead?"

"Not really sure how the verse I quoted was judgemental...but we all see what we want to...eh."

Maybe, just as a memory refresher for all us 'pitiable unbelievers,' though:

(FH: "What is silly, is an eternity of loneliness because of intellectual pride. Every believer has doubt...it is not a sin.

Jesus replies, "Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.")

Did I have some overwhelming desire to not see judgment as regards 'silly unbelievers,' there? Funny thing is, I've read your book more than I'd care to, really. Whatever's supposed to be *there,* of 'redeeming value,' if you'll pardon the pun, well, I don't see it.

As for my beliefs, though, somehow I don't have the notion yer man Jesus there would be giving me such a hard time as his fan club likes to. :) Blessed be and all. :)

"Work for a livin...ex-military???"

In a manner of speaking. That was a metaphor, but let's just say that on my list of regrets, having but one life to give for my country does not appear. :)

"PAGANPLACE...in all seriousness, I wish you well. I thought George was amazingly funny...Bill and Ted's Adv., was just the best."

*little air guitar riff.*

Most excellent. :)

"I hope your search for truth leads you to the answers you seek."

Eh, too late. Wish me more questions. :)

Truth... is not an answer, friend.

Answers, we can have, though, if that's what we want. :)

"That's all any of us can do., good luck to you."

Luck and bright laughter between us. :)

Dust. Wind. Dude. :)

Mr Mark:

Your statement:

"BTW - why anyone would waste a good part of their life "conducting their life" as if god or an afterlife existed is the height of egoism."

Waste my life loving others and God, and doing good things cause I do love people and God - that is the height of egotism.

What a hoot. The elitist of this forum calling people that actually do conduct their lives according to their love of God and man, egotists....

Man, I thought you has the cart before the horse, or but you've just illustrated your lack of understanding of humanity....especially us awful religionists.... that chip on your shoulder must be getting awful ugly and difficult to handle.

Mr Mark:

Your statement:

"BTW - why anyone would waste a good part of their life "conducting their life" as if god or an afterlife existed is the height of egoism."

Waste my life loving others and God, and doing good things cause I do love people and God - that is the height of egotism.

What a hoot. The elitist of this forum calling people that actually do conduct their lives according to their love of God and man, egotists....

Man, I thought you had the cart before the horse, or but you've just illustrated your lack of understanding of humanity....especially us awful religionists.... that chip on your shoulder must be getting awful ugly and difficult to handle.

Regarding the coverage of Russert's death as opposed to Carlin's, I don't think it is particularly surprising. Russert was "one of them" - a member of the media and a believer. Carlin was neither. It's human nature to laud friends over strangers and people who resemble yourself over those who are different.

Personally, Russert made no impression on my life. He seemed sort of blandly inoffensive, while Carlin was an inspiration. One of the joys of the internet is that we have plenty of outlets where we can celebrate his life even though we may feel the "official" news sources aren't giving him his due.

Russert was the uncle who brought the best gifts & a yummy dessert to family gatherings, bounced all the babies on his knees, and got the squabbling cousins to agree to disagree.

Carlin was the curmudgeonly uncle who sat by the fireplace snorting over the hypocrisy of the neighbors and let you in on the family secrets when your parents weren't paying attention.

I loved them both.

Christian: "Frisbeetariarism? No. There are only two choices: Heaven or Hell. It's your choice."

Lighten up, Christian, it's a JOKE!

----------------------------

It is? George Carlin probably doesn't think so anymore. Read Luke 16.

Religion has three elements: something to fear, something to hope for, and a lot of repetition.

Carlin evidently understood this.

Reasonable not hateful wrote:

"Mr Mark:
Your statement:
"BTW - why anyone would waste a good part of their life "conducting their life" as if god or an afterlife existed is the height of egoism."

Waste my life loving others (and God), and doing good things cause I do love people (and God) - that is the height of egotism.(?)

What a hoot. The elitist of this forum calling people that actually do conduct their lives according to their love of (God and) man, egotists....

Man, I thought you had the cart before the horse, or but you've just illustrated your lack of understanding of humanity....especially us awful religionists.... that chip on your shoulder must be getting awful ugly and difficult to handle."

See, I think Mr. Mark's point is that you could do all the above without the bits in parentheses, and obtain the same result. Claiming to know the desires of a omnipotent, omnibenevolent, supernatural being, tho. - that's the height of egoism, no?

I enjoyed George Carlin on occasion and wish him well wherever he may be. And I don't know for sure but believe he would have some sympathy with the following notions.

Heaven or Hell is forever determined by our state of consciousness. It's not a place somewhere but an internal condition.

That state is what follows us wherever we go.

If you are in a self-created living hell here and now, that's probably what you'll experience after death.

Seems many here are tormented by their minds, especially by the need to be right and other posters to be wrong.

If this is the case, this will be your condition wherever you are, in this life or some other....though changing one's inner condition is always an option.

Maybe seeking peace of mind and tolerance now is truly a good thing.

To quote George Carlin, "Religion is bullsh1t." I think that sums up very succinctly what I think about religion.

So take your god, your bible, and your religion and stick it up your a$$!!! I don't want to hear about your invisible man and what he supposedly told you today!

Lastly, the I think bible is a crock of sh1t to!

surfbum:
why are you so angry with God?

I had a good bit of respect for George Carlin and while I may not have agreed with all he said, I did particularly enjoy his skewing of religious authority as he understood a key and simple fact:

No human being, past or present has ever spent more than a few minutes dead and come back to tell the tale. We simply cannot and will never know (despite how many folks are "sure' they know) what happens until each of us stops living. Period.

...and no, I don't count the Lazarus story, either. As a former Christian, I've often believed Lazarus was in a coma and mistaken as dead (a common problem until the advent of modern medicine). Christ, Prometheus, the Mayan Corn God and several others have been proclaimed raised from the dead yet proof is lacking beyond the adherents' word--no offense to anyone but this is faith we're talking vs concrete evidentiary fact.

During my church days, I recall full well feeling so certain and sure I was going to some big place with mansions (for whatever reason since a body doesn't need a home) and an endless buffet (another peculiarity since again, no bodily needs). Yet now, I am brave enough to admit I simply don't know what is after this life--and in reality, anyone reading these words cannot prove what they believe, either, beyond quoting their scriptures or sacred texts.

So far all we know, George's Frisbeentarianism is correct and we'll all end up flung upon someone's roof, unrecoverable. Makes as much sense as a heaven with mansions, 72 slow eyed virgins awaiting, being ferried over the river Styx by Charon or whatever other after life beliefs are out there by the tens of thousands of religions human beings have developed over our history.

Paul C – Please consider that “Atheist I am” is angry at religion, that does exist, and not at God – that does not exist – in his opinion, of course.

Christian – I noticed that some of the reports on Carlin’s death didn’t use the word “atheist,” but did make a point of saying that he hated religion and that he relentlessly spoofed it. To me this is similar to news stories saying that Russert was a “man of faith” without saying he believed in God or specifically believed in the tenets of the Catholic church. I was actually looking for specifics on Russert’s Catholicism in news reports of his death and only got that he attended Mass every Saturday afternoon at Georgetown University Chapel and that he carried a wood-bead Rosary in his pocket. There was nothing about what he actually believed. His beliefs, whatever they were, were implied, through participating in the ritual of Mass, and carrying a rosary like a good luck charm.

As for Luke 16 – remember, if you don’t believe in God, you’re not going to take the Bible seriously as anything but ancient stories and myths.

Mr Mark – thanks for sorting out your thoughts and clarifying your writing. Finding the google link was easy – it was right at the top of the page.

Paul C:

I really don't like you bible thumping religious zealots. I think you are a bunch of deranged mental cases in serious need of psychiatric help. Religious fanaticism is a symptom of mental illness so I suggest you get help now!

Finally, I despise you and people like you who claim to know god (what ever that is) and then try to shove your bible crap down everyone's throat!

So I say take your "god" however you want to define it and get f**ked!!!

George's legacy can be found in those who listened and emulated. A few have even shown up here- leaving a trail of vitriolic phlegm for all to see. Its NOT just anti-God: its anti-social, verbally aggressive, and steeped in HATRED..

Thanks George for your contributions to the world you've left behind. Everytime I hear a kid spleening malicious wrath on the world-I'll think of you.

Cubby wrote: "So far all we know, George's Frisbeentarianism is correct and we'll all end up flung upon someone's roof, unrecoverable. Makes as much sense as a heaven with mansions..."

You should try reading the ancient Egyptian "Book Of The Dead" and learn what they expected to see after they died. A little more humble than most religions, but generally very similar:
-You die
-Your soul is judged by a god based on what you did in life.
-You are rewarded for a good afterlife.

When my 7th grade daughter read this in school she said it sounded very silly. I then reminded her of what she was learning in church and sunday school, of God and heaven, hell, angels and life after death. She just sat silent. I did not know if she was questioning her religious upbringing or considering the Egyptians might have been right, or maybe it was all bunk. She'll have to decide that when she gets older as George did.

I like the idea of Frisbeentarianism though. The problem with it is that it is not based on reward and fear (carrot and stick), as all religions are, so there is nothing to hold the faithful to the faith. A religion destined for failure, but that does not mean it is incorrect. What most religious people forget is that faith is just that, faith, and they cannot prove their faith is true more than another, and so Frisbeentarianism is just as likely to be true as any other faith, it just won't fill the coffers with those scared they might go someplace painful when they die, or those seeking paradise.

George, if he was right, is sitting on a roof looking down on us all, laughing as he made us laugh. I'm sure he's looking around at all the others stuck on the roof, and smiling.

Well, Anonymous, talk about class. Glad to see that you're putting a guy who just died in his place.

Well, at least Surfbum is honest.

I don't particularly care for Eagles fans myself. They are the worst in the NFL.

Unfortunately, I keep running into decent, friendly ones in real life which is a real problem for me. That's why I hang out on sports boards though so I can hide behind a mask and stereotype them all day and night - even though I know that fans of my own team don't behave much better.

It's like playing cards with my sister's kids on this WP board.

Anon: "Thanks George...Everytime I hear a kid spleening malicious wrath on the world - I'll think of you."

Please also think of God himself, who frequently expressed his wrath in the bible. Also, don't forget the wrath of some of God's followers here on earth who seem to revel in reminding their fellow humans of the eternal suffering that awaits them if they don't believe in a supposedly loving god.

Good call Zappa. Yea, let's all throw rocks at a dead guy. I know it makes me feel better.

You should have seen the class a couple weeks ago when Falwell's wife posted a note. That one makes this thread look like Romper Room.

Oh yea, speaking of Romper Room in regards to my last post. I play "War" with my sister's kids. It is the only game card easy enough for them to understand.

Anonymous wrote: "Thanks George for your contributions to the world you've left behind. Everytime I hear a kid spleening malicious wrath on the world-I'll think of you."

Did you ever consider that, now and then, the world deserves a little malicious wrath spleened onto it?

George helped us question many things. His humor was biting. Maybe it hit a little too close to home for you, but you should always accept any questioning of your beliefs, whatever they are, religious or social. Questions help keep you honest and prevents you from just accepting things you heard from a friend of a friend, as way too many of us do.

I remember hearing a Roman Catholic cardinal on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson years ago. He accepted questions from the audience and fielded them very professionally, eventually winning over the audience with at least having won the arguments or explaining the faith to their satisfaction. Too bad we see little of that anymore, with shouting down your opponment the weapon of choice in the battle for ideas and beliefs these days. As we said in the 60s but seems to have been forgotten; 'think for yourself and question authority'.

George, I know you can't hear us cause your dead and I would never pretent to think you could hear our thoughts now, so this isn't for you.

Unfortunately you are not hearing this eulogy this time...

I also know you would not have cared about any stupid comments made here as they are in charactor as always.

You know George, now that you are dead you are in the ironic position of actually having a religion of your own...

I don't know about frisbees... I think that was just a ironic bit to you. I think of your appearance in Dogma and I think instead of a George Carlin with two thumbs up.

Good bye George, thank you for all the laughs.

Reread surfbum's posts. If you've heard George's rant on religion- you will immediately recognise his influence on the poster.

"the wrath of some of God's followers here on earth who seem to revel in reminding their fellow humans of the eternal suffering that awaits them if they don't believe in a supposedly loving god."

Somehow I missed the wrath and revelling. Was that on this thread? in this forum? or a product of your imagination? Please provide links with quotes.

If "the world deserves a little malicious wrath spleened onto it?" here's your steaming morning dose:

Life Is Worth Losing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wxK4lp1tjU

Wrong answer anonymous. I arrived at my opinions about religion, religious leaders, and god independent of George Carlin. We just happen to see eye to eye on this one.

I just get sick and tired of idiots like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, James Dobson, and people like you constantly spouting off about the jesus and god crapola.

"I talked to god and god said this and that", "I found jesus", "the bible says this", "god this and god that." Give it a break, man!!! Why can't you keep that sh1t to yourselves and give the rest of us break! I am REALLY sick and tired of hearing this sh1t!

Thanks to you brain washed bible thumping crackpots we ended up with a f**king moron in the WH that has so totally f**ked up this country and got us in a war we can't figure out how to get out of!

OK surfbum- take a deep breath and try to settle yourself..

You directly quoted George in your posts. You remembered what he said and repeat it. His words have influenced you.

You say-

"and people like you constantly spouting off about the jesus and god crapola."

Please give things a reality test before you post. You're the one "spouting off" and projecting your ravings onto me. I've never mentioned Jesus or God in my posts. You've been narrow minded and judgmental- the thing you dislike in others.

surfbum:
If you aren't interested in hearing about religion, what are you doing on the On Faith website?

Surfbum,

Your level of hostility and anger leads me to believe that there are other forces at work here. But that is for another time, another day.

Perhaps a good starting point would be to lose the stereotyping. You are doing yourself a tremendous disservice by assuming all Christians act and think like the leaders you've mentioned. Am I to assume that most women leaders are liars and crooks because of the actions of Hillary Clinton?

Second, while the sharing of the Gospel may seem offensive to you, I would ask that you take a moment to reflect outside yourself and ask how many people that very act has saved? How many people have had their lives changed in ways they could never possibly imagine, all because someone was willing to spend the time and effort to let them know about Jesus.

And while I too would disagree with President Bush on a number of his policies, the most important point remains. There is only one solution to evil. Enlightenment has given the world no answers, none, to any of the evil or violent acts that fester in our society. No matter what Obama or McCain might tell you, there is no roadmap to utopia. To believe so would be to believe in a great myth indeed.

Not a sermon, just a thought.

Anonymous,

Satire is effective in this regard and the truth hurts, don't it? At least he was one funny-ass SOB!

- A Lifelong Frisbeetarian.

Anonymous:

"You directly quoted George in your posts"

The thoughts I posted are my own so

"You've been narrow minded and judgmental- the thing you dislike in others"

Nope. Wrong again. I just want you so called "christians" to keep your biblical horsesh!t to yourself. If you can do that, man, I'd be very stoked!

Brambleton:

"all because someone was willing to spend the time and effort to let them know about Jesus"

Like that draft dodging, coke snorting, f**k up in the WH who people like you (evangelical christians) voted for in large numbers. Yea, you're right I'm very pissed at people like you! If so called "evangelical christians" had exercised a little more independent judgement, that lying war criminal in the WH would still be in Austin or maybe in drug rehab where he belongs.

Lastly, where does it say in your stupid f**king bible that it's OK fine to start a f**king war and kill tens of thousands of people? Where, Brambleton, where in that f**king bible of yours, does it say its great idea kill people, lavish tax cuts on the wealthy, veto health care for poor kids, trash the environment, and bend over and take it deep for corporate special interests?

So I don't need to hear about your god, your bible, or your religious ramblings.

Just go way!

HTTP://NEWSWEEK.WASHINGTONPOST.COM/ONFAITH/RELIGIONFROMTHEHEART/2008/06/CS_LEWIS_ONCE_WROTE_YOU.HTML

Here are two links from "On faith" forums mentioning punishment for not beliving. There are many more - some in the bible

JIM POOL: Some folks still don't get it...If you are not a believer in Jesus you, I regret to say, will burn in hell. Our Jesus is a loving, compassionate Living God. If you refuse to accept that...well you had a chance....

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/cal_thomas/2007/11/give_thanks_for_freedom_of_wor/all_comments.html

reasonable but not hateful: "Christians have the obligation to scream "fire" in the burning theater our world really is, and to point out the escape from destruction that lies in Jesus Christ."

Ms. Hoffman,

Your BLASPHEMOUS comments regarding worship of the almighty FRISBEE condemn your soul to FALL OFF the roof and be chewed up by a slobbering St. Bernard!

It's true because I WANT it to be true!

Ah, I see words from the Holy Book of Frisbeetarianism, from the Gospel of Dr. R.P.

i never met george carlan, i had the pleasure and honer of meeting the comedian gallager in new orleans when i was a mcdonalds manager and our convetion was there at the hyatt regency .. and he was our entertainment, i was the one in audience that for some reason he picked to come up on stage and introduce him, i had a lariate that went round and round i had to hold and it was powered by my hands using an eggbeater like contraption, for some reason when it comes to comedy i dont freeze up like i do when i get infront of a crowd with my guitar or to speak and i introduced him as our next regional manager, and got a good appause from my feloow wine saturated at the time managers.. i dont drink now .. i havent for years but i was feeling no pain that nite... and i guess because i handled that welll he picked on me for many of his tricks including the sledgeomatic watermelon splitter.. there is something about commedians that brings out the best in people of all kinds some times.. they seem to be able to talk about things that others cant... and get people to actually think. my personal favorite from george was his line...they missed the boat when they had the chance to name the birth control pil... inconcieveablee.. and he worked his eyes and eyebrows... i have a mind pictur 2 this day of him..i dont speak for God or understand God but maybe its possible God has a sense of humour and wanted george to entertain him and maybe with all the fine people that are dying of heart attacks here in these bunches that saddens us all maybe God himself is sending the message to world leaders, robber barrons, and people who would use violence instead of diplomacy... that there is no bomb shelter deep enough to protect them from God when God calls them home,.. nor is there any pacemaker or doctor or hospital anywhere that will stopp the simple truth that we all are here but for a certain amount of time and maybe we should be the nicest we can and yes maybe learn to laugh at a lot of things intead of blowing things up or physically harming other humans with direct or inderect actions like those caused by greed and [poverty....i know God could at any time change our world drastically by removing not the blessed ones to heaven but the ones that cause the pain to where ever they go i'm not smart enough to know where that is.. thank you george in my opinion well done but i'm jus the dyslexic artist son of a bluridge mountain hillbilly please check 4 truth

freestinker thinks:

"the truth hurts, don't it?"

And wants me to agree- but no. I don't.

Truth only hurts those who are heavily invested in avoiding it. Think how truth gets all up in the face of an addict in rehab.

George was a comic who interpreted the world as he saw it. In his later years- he gave up on the human race and didn't care about the outcome. He became distant, cynical, and angry. He watched for and exploited human frailties and failures. He actually rooted for a final huge destruction of humanity.

That is the truth.

The idea of burning in Hell is just plain laughable. There is no afterlife, no eternal soul, no Hell, and no God passing judgment based on whether we testified about our religious conversion with arms raised singing hallelujah just before partaking of a cannibalistic act (symbolically of course).

What if the people who proclaim most vociferously that everyone else is going to hell are the ones who go first for their sin of arrogance? According to their own religion it's up to god to decide, so who are they to pass judgment?

Ahhhh the whole thing is just so absurd. It's a pity so many people believe in this ridiculous pack of fairy tales.

I know it took efavorite a LONG TIME to find his links-so e for effort.

But in his post he said

"the wrath of some of God's followers here on earth who seem to revel in reminding their fellow humans of the eternal suffering that awaits them if they don't believe in a supposedly loving god."

And I still can't find the wrath and revelling.

Unless(like surfbum)he thinks that making a statement of belief is hateful, wrathful and vindictive.

I'd like to remind them- what you don't believe shouldn't offend or hurt your feelings.

Amy:
I agree that as Christians we should refrain from being judgemental. As you say, " Judge not, lest you be judged." However, how are you so sure there's no God or afterlife? What makes you think these concepts are so laughable? After all, they are shared by 90% of all Americans.

Paul C wrote:

"What makes you think these concepts are so laughable? After all, they are shared by 90% of all Americans."

...and that is suppose to convince me of what?

"...and that is suppose to convince me of what?"

Your views are in the minority. When you speak-most people will not agree. You are not even a voting block- so you have no political voice. Although you believe your views are superior- only a select few care..

Are you convinced? You ought to be.

Paul C wrote: "However, how are you so sure there's no God or afterlife? What makes you think these concepts are so laughable? After all, they are shared by 90% of all Americans."

A majority of American votes for GWBush after he had lied about WMD and outed a CIA agent. So a majority of Americans is not a good measure of what is right. However, when you consider the world, which rightly rejected Bush and his neocon ideals, the majority are not christian, with christians only occupying about a quarter of humanity. Maybe you should worry that another religion is correct? Or are they laughable to you for some reason?

Also, if you study other religions you will see that an afterlife and god(s) is the norm. It was not invented by the Hebrews of Christians. It goes waaaaay back. Who is to say being buried under a pyramid with your body preserved will not get you to heaven? I'm sure 90% of ancient Egyptians shared that belief. Why is it therefore laughable today? Why are you not covering your bets and being buried that way, just in case? Do you think the ancient Egyptians did not believe in their gods? That they did not believe in what the Book of the Dead said about the afterlife and how to get there? Much of it is similar to the christian belief, except Osiris greets you at the gate and not Peter, but overall, not so different.

What you need to consider is WHY christianity's promises of an afterlife are not laughable, considering how many times it has been prophesicized that the world would end, and did not.

When I heard about George Carlin's passing I was very sad. I feel tremendous sympathy for his family and loved ones who are now grieving. I pray that their eyes, ears and hearts may be opened to the unending love that is offered to us through our precious Lord, Jesus Christ.

Mr. Carlin was a very intelligent, talented and funny man. He alone is responsible for the choices he made regarding his belief in God and the profound grace provided through his Son. We all are responsible for making that choice.

One thing is for sure; now he knows the ultimate Truth. May God have mercy on his soul.

"It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."
Hebrews 9:27

Thomas wrote:

"Your views are in the minority. When you speak-most people will not agree. You are not even a voting block- so you have no political voice. Although you believe your views are superior- only a select few care.."

Fortunately, the truth is not a democracy. The universe is what it is, and doesn't care what you, I, or 300million other Americans think, even if they are delusional.

That last comment to Thomas was from me.

Paul, argumentum ad populum isn't a compelling argument. After all, a majority of the population also believes in UFOs, ESP, and a bunch of other unsubstantiated urban legends and demonstrably faked "phenomenon."

Believers don't really, in fact, believe in phenomena. They believe in the veracity of the oral tradition because they trust the storytellers of their culture. If you had grown up in another culture you'd be 100% sure of whatever fairy tales the shamans & elders of that culture had told you. It's human nature. That doesn't make it right, just understandable.

Trusting in authority figures is how we became the dominant species that we are. Mom says don't put your hand on the stove, we do it anyway, and then we learn that Mom was right after all. So when Mom says God watches over us when we sleep, we believe her. We're expected to give up the belief in Santa Claus & the Tooth Fairy as we grow up, but our society reinforces the god stuff because it's in society's best interest for everyone to be obedient to the same principles and laws... but that doesn't mean there really is a Sky-Daddy throwing people who don't properly suck up to him into a fiery pit after they die.

The Bible is a quaint collection of history, hallucinations, lies, propaganda, and story-telling. That's the only possible explanation for its inconsistencies, relation to other belief systems of its day and bizarre ramblings. If there really were an all-knowing, all-powerful god who revealed himself to scribes & writers he would have done a much better job.

As an aside, most people (including Christians) have taken the whole "judging" proclamation completely out of context. Supporting an argument by taking one sentence, in this case "Judge not lest ye be judged", out of an entire passage is, to put it bluntly, absurd.

If you studied the context of the message, I think you would see that Jesus held these two juxtaposed teachings (judgment vs. discernment) together. As if to say that you will judge AND you will discern, you just need not always speak your judgment or speak your discernment.

The greek word, krino, that has been translated to the English "judge" does not carry the negative connotation that we have given it. Plus, it's primary meaning is that of discernment - which I'm sure we would all agree is a good thing.

Thomas,

"No one in this world has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby."
H. L. Mencken

For proof, see George W Bush.

Fate,

Could you tell me what religion or other belief system includes the resurrection of the body? Don't bother because you won't find it. The Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ is the single, most unique hope.

George was a comedian not a theologian. His views on religion are no more relevant than Billy Crystal's or Bob Hope's.

He's either nowhere or somewhere. Either way he was a funny man.

Brambleton, you said "Could you tell me what religion or other belief system includes the resurrection of the body? Don't bother because you won't find it. The Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ is the single, most unique hope."

... since argumentum ad populum seems to be a favorite device of christians, doesn't this mean that Christianity is likelier to be WRONG because of that uniqueness?

Arminius and Amy:

Right on! I totally agree with you!

My point was that anything believed by 90% of the people has to be given some respect, especially when it can not be proven to be wrong by anyone. The most any atheist can truthfully say is "I see no evidence of God, therefore I don't believe." Its hard to believe how eager and how vigorously some atheists are in ridiculing the faithful given that there is no way to actually disprove the existence of God. Its fine to have an opinion. Its the unsubstantiated criticism of people with opposing opinions that I object to .

Amy,

Absolutely not. It gives us the unbelievable hope that is not provided through any other belief system or through the myth of enlightenment.

To all non-believers who expressed upset with Americans and our form of government:

You might prefer to live among a non-believer majority under an atheistic form of government. That is clearly available to you- but you might be surprised and long to be back among the "inferior and stupid" American masses.

Thomas,

I am quite content with the American form of government as defined by our Constitution. I am not always happy - actually, seldom happy - with the choices that the electorate makes. Especially now, because I am outraged at how the current administration has twisted our Constitution

Oh, yeah - I am a believer.

paul c wrote: "My point was that anything believed by 90% of the people has to be given some respect, especially when it can not be proven to be wrong by anyone."

90% of Americans, but less than half of the people of earth. And not being able to prove a negative is no measure of proof. Can you prove Carlin's soul is NOT sitting on someone's roof somewhere? I thought not.

paul c wrote: "The most any atheist can truthfully say is "I see no evidence of God, therefore I don't believe."

Absolutely correct, but not just in the Judaeo/Christian/Muslim God, but in the Hindu gods, the Cherokee gods, gods from past religions, etc... In fact, we probably agree on the existance of most gods except that one god you believe in.

paul c wrote: "Its hard to believe how eager and how vigorously some atheists are in ridiculing the faithful given that there is no way to actually disprove the existence of God."

And no way to prove God's existance. The problem atheists have is that His existance is shoved down their throats everyday.

paul c wrote: "Its fine to have an opinion. Its the unsubstantiated criticism of people with opposing opinions that I object to ."

Extraordinary statements require extraordinary proof. The existance of an all powerful God, who has dominion over all our souls, who can send you and me to hell in a heartbeat requires some proof. You and other's of this *belief* offer NO proof, yet continue to tell me I am damned. Well, I think the onus is on you and others who insist you are right, not on those of use who roll our eyes when we hear stories of raising people from the dead, feeding thousands with a few loafs of bread, and other stories with as much proof behind them as the ancient Egyptians had for their beliefs, which they also wrote down and also contain some stories I am sure you would roll your eyes at but cannot disprove.

Thomas - I'm a non-believer and I love our form of government. Instead of the religion-dominated governments of Europe, our founders realized that mixing religion and government was a fatal recipe for both. Also, thanks to the First Amendment, not only am I guaranteed the right to believe (or not) as I choose, I have the right to express my opinion about it. I don't recall reading anything in this blog about believers not liking our form of government. It's usually christians who get upset when people assert their first amendment rights to disagree with them, which is pretty funny since they'd all be *gasp* Episcopalians and not baptists or church-of-christ or mormon or whatever if our founders hadn't had the good sense to keep government out of religion. Personally, I think if we were to have a "Christian nation" that defined Christianity in such a way as to disenfranchise mormons, scientologists, falung gong pamphleteers, hari krishna flower peddlers and jehovah's witnesses, that would be an improvement. At least we wouldn't be accosted by strangers. Also, it would be good to eliminate baptist churches since dunking people is just plain stupid when a little sprinkle would do. ...and all those denominations that make their followers think they have to convert everyone. Since in that kind of country everyone would be forced to believe the same thing there'd be no point in evangelizing.

Paul C -

90% of Americans believed the lies that Colin Powell told at the UN, ie: his averring that Saddam had WMD. Not only was no evidence to the contrary presented by Powell, but false evidence (witness) was presented by him to make bush's case for war.

So, are those lies that Powell told "to be given some respect," even after they've been shown absolutely to have been lies, lies that Powell and bush KNEW were lies as he uttered them?

Similarly, are the obvious falsehoods of the Bible (ie: scientific and historical lies) to be "given some respect" now that modern-day experts in these disciplines have conclusively put the lie to the ramblings of a bunch of fearful and ignorant nomads?

If we do not choose to extend respect to these clear falsehoods in the Bible, do we not rightfully and honestly look with suspicion on the other truth claims of the Bible, claims made in a book that has proven to be littered with myriad falsehoods and myths?

Actually, Paul, the most any atheist can truthfully say is "I see no evidence that the Bible is truthful on a whole range of material things, so why should I believe its truthful when it claims authority on non-material things?"

When the believers find that THEY can be as truthful with themselves in this regard as are the atheists, then we'll be talking about real progress in this world.

In the meanwhile, claiming that 90% of people believe something is as much a proof for delusion as it is a claim for truth. The only difference between Powell's claims and those of the Bible is the degree of intent to delude, which in Powell's case was 100%...and which is in the Bible's case harder to quantify.

Mr. Mark

Name something in the Bible that is not true.

Paul, you said "Absolutely not. It gives us the unbelievable hope that is not provided through any other belief system or through the myth of enlightenment."

So... you believe that christianity is right because it's more comforting to you than other religions (that you know of). If something came along that offered a better story about what the afterlife was like, would you dump christianity? Let's say there's an afterlife, and if you follow certain rules and join this sect you die and then you get to have sex with 24 virgins and ... oh wait...

THINKINGMAN - the universe designs itself as it goes along. It gives every appearance of being an emergent phenomenon. Harder to believe for the anthropomorphically inclined among us - but actually far better supported by evidence than the 'designer' idea.

The whole 'trial and error' scheme so obviously inherent in the fabric of the universe belies the idea of a cosmic designer - and setting aside our conflated self-importance for a moment lets the brain breath. Religionists just need a little more oxygen....hyperventilating over God is not really breathing to your best advantage.

The religious poll in question, done by the Pew Center for Religion and Public Life, indeed did report that 90% of Americans are believers of some sort. But - and this could be important - 70% said that many religions can lead to eternal life, and 68& said that there is more than one way to interpret their religion.

Hmmmmm........

Believe writes:

"Mr. Mark

Name something in the Bible that is not true."

Do your own research. I'm tired of providing the legwork for lazy-ass parasites like you.

"I'm a non-believer and I love our form of government."

Amy- wise choice to dwell among majority Christians under a form of government founded by believers.

I think you will agree with me: Non-believers do not make good leaders and do not form lasting governments.

As for the rest of your post- next time serve some cheese with that whine..

believe:

I'll answer that one. The whole bible is a bunch of sh!t. I think I would like to wipe my ass with a bible. Who do you like them apples!

Thomas,
What do you define as an "atheistic form of government"? Communism? Communism is not based on atheism, it is based on totalitarianism with a communist economic system. Do you think the Cuban people are atheists? And where do you think the Russian Orthodox churches came from the day after communism died in the Soviet Union? And believe it or not, there are Christians living freely in China.

I love our form of government. I and many others have been speaking out since the first days of this corrupt administration. Its taken the evangelicals a lot longer to realize what they voted for. Why is that so? But I believed that the Consitution, if it was defended, would stop Bush and his cronies, and we are seeing that being applied, too late in my opinion thanks to a republican congress until a year ago, but it is being applied. Just because someone does not like the president does not make them unAmerican. In fact, it is love of the Constitution, not a president or a religion, that makes one a good American. I consider anyone who supports our current president and his policies to be unAmerican, not because I hate Bush but because I love our Consitution, which Bush was overheard to say was a g-dd-mned pience of paper. Many who support Bush love their religion over the Consitution. To them I say they can go back in time and live in the Holy Roman Empire, where torture was also authorized by government officials.

One has to wonder how many Bush appointees, and Bush himself, will burn in hell for swearing on the bible that they would uphold and defend the Consitution. Something for the believers, who are the majority of Bush's current supporters, to contemplate.

Believe -
How about pi = 3?

Mr Mark -
Chill out, dude! (actually, I got a laugh out of your last post.)

"The whole bible is a bunch of sh!t. I think I would like to wipe my ass with a bible."

Wow surfbum- that was brave. You know how wrathul those vindictive Christians are.

Now as an equal opportunity haters of all religions-

I dare you to make that statement about the Koran.

Dear Believe:

Try this: one of these statements isn't true -

When was Jesus born?
"Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king."

Herod died in 4BC

"And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)"

Cyrenius became governor in 6CE.

Two Biblical statements, one says Jesus was born when Herod was alive - ie: before 4BC - one says Jesus was born when Cyrenius was governor of Syria - ie: after 6CE.

That's a difference between the birth dates of 10 years, minimum.

They can't both be right. So, which one is wrong?

Thanks in advance for your considered answer.

Arminius -

Before I believe that 90% of Americans believe in god, I'd want to see a breakdown by category. I have the sneaking suspicion that a large portion of their sample included dyslexic dog lovers...

"The idea of burning in Hell is just plain laughable."

I am sure you would not understand this, but what I believe is what is important to me. I believe GWB will burn in Hell, and I believe George Carlin's Truth is marching on. These kinds of beliefs make life worth living to me.

Mr Mark,

Go to the website for the Pew Center on Religion, the report can be accessed there. That's where I got the figures.

BTW, the differences on the date of Jesus' birth are truly mystifying..... nope, this believer has no answer.

It's amazing how many people come to this "On Faith" page who seem to have anger toward God.

E-Favorite, you said you don't read the Bible because you believe it to be nothing more than myths. That's part of the problem. You all are looking at "Christians" who are sinners just like you and basing your view of God on their sins. If you really want to know God, you have to read the Bible for youself.

Mr. Mark

"Cyrenius became governor in 6CE."

I suppose you're drawing that statement from the writings of Josephus. So you are a man of faith!

Scholarship varies on this point. I can't imagine that you've based your entire rejection of the Gospel on this point.

"You're on trial for your life. Please don't tell me that you've pinned your hopes to a phone bill."

Anon: "Unless(like surfbum)he thinks that making a statement of belief is hateful, wrathful and vindictive"

Thanks for proving my point. A statement of belief which includes how others will suffer if they don't believe what you do is indeed "hateful, wrathful and vindictive."

"George Carlin's Truth is marching on"

George Carlin died and his "truth" goes with him to the grave. If your faith in one George and your damnation of another George helps you cope with life- good luck.

"You know how wrathul those vindictive Christians are"

Yea, like the ones blowing up family planning clinics or terrorizing a family with a brain dead daughter or the ones stalking gynecologists and harrassing their children on the way to school.

And christians like f**k head GWB who start wars that kill thousands of people. Remember GWB said jesus was his favorite philospher. Would jesus say, "Right on, dude, let's start the bombing and spread some freedom. Shock and awe them, dubya!"

"You're doin' a heckuva job!" "Mission accomplished!" "The insurgency is in its last throes." "Cake walk" "Slam dunk" "We'll be greated as liberators" "Bring 'em on."

>>After all, people still talk about Lenny Bruce. Chet Huntley? Not so much.

Interesting observation. People like Bruce, Hefner, Flynt and Carlin have certainly made their mark on our society. A mark under the guise of free speech and under the umbrella of comedy/entertainment. Talk of them is talk of little or no substance. They are looked upon by some as champions of free speech....

...but will they be remembered for how they helped strengthen the society they were in? In the long term, I believe they won't.

History of other civilizations tells.

"If your faith in one George and your damnation of another George helps you cope with life- good luck."

Thanks.

Fate,

You said, "I consider anyone who supports our current president and his policies to be unAmerican." C'mon - you can't be serious. I'm guessing that, inherently, you meant the support of SOME of his policies?

Or I guess I'm "unAmerican" because I don't support the redistribution of wealth? Or maybe I'm "unAmerican" because I don't believe you should tax the H*ll out of the rich just because you can. I know that might sound elitist, but I'm sorry, when 20% of the population is paying 80% of the tax, there's a problem.

I know, I know. The Dems don't see it that way because they're too busy passing minimum wages that help about a dozen people. Way to go!!

"A statement of belief which includes how others will suffer if they don't believe what you do is indeed "hateful, wrathful and vindictive."

Non-believers repeatedly state there is no afterlife and believers don't fret over the hopelessness and meaninglessness of life in that thought system- because they don't believe it.

You've got some issues you are unknowingly airing on a public board if you believe that a statement of belief you don't believe in is "hateful, wrathful and vindictive".

If you don't believe in hell -why aren't you laughing like others who post to this thread?

One more time George...

"Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you."

-- George Carlin Politically Incorrect, May 29, 1997

Dear Believe:

No, the dating of Cyrenius' governorship doesn't come from Josephus.

Matthew 2:22 actually confirms the succession of the governorship of Herod to his son, Archelaus Herod AFTER Herod's death. Matthew states that Archelaus ruled at the time Mary & Joseph made the Flight into Egypt. Cyrenius famously succeed Archelaus. Look further and you'll find the usual non-Biblical confirming references as well.

BTW - it might interest you to know that the majority of Biblical scholars believe that Luke got Jesus' birth date wrong and that Matthew is correct.

Ergo, if you (ie: Believe) were to ask your typical Biblical scholar to, "name something in the Bible that is not true," Luke's accounting of the year of Jesus' birth would be on most Biblical scholars' short list.

For some reason, I don't think that you'd take that response as a valid answer. But will you accept Matthew's evidence as proof that Luke is wrong?

Is it possible that you know as little about the Bible as you do about history? Seems likely.

Christian, I said I think the Bible is stories and myths. I did NOT say that I don’t read it. I have spent time reading the Bible, in some cases in church-sponsored adult education classes taught by seminary professors, when I was a church goer. I’ve also read books by professors of religion and archeology which present the bible as story and myth. Try “Misquoting Jesus” by Bart Erhmann and the Bible Unearthed, by Finkelstein and Silberman.

And again I ask you to consider that atheists are not angry at God, who doesn’t exist. They are angry with certain aspects of religion, that do exist.

>>BTW, the differences on the date of Jesus' birth are truly mystifying..... nope, this believer has no answer.

Jesus' birth took place at/around the time of harvest (the fall..the Romans knew their constituents would have the $$ then...)...There are no accounts, anywhere, of Roman taxation of its provinces in the dead of winter. It amazes me to this day that many, many do not even realize that it actually snows in Bethlehem and the sheppards have long had their sheep in for the winter.

The adversary has certainly done his job to fulfill Rev. 12:9, in this example, re: Christianity. The whole world (in this case, the whole world of Christianity) has been deceived and has fallen for the lie that Jesus was born on Dec. 25. And even those who believe and state that it really wasnt His date of birth, yet they feel its 'right' (by mans edict) to observe that date as His birth, cannot justify their view with scripture...anywhere. The Word, who later became Jesus Christ, expounds numerous time in the OT not to do as the heathen (Christmas is a compiliation of heathen (pagan) practices). That same Word, who became Jesus Christ, is stated in Hebrews (NT) as being the same yesterday, today and forever. Very easy to connect it all together. Its all there. The bible actually interprets itself. What a concept!

Andrew,

I think Carlin's heyday was before my time, but I'm assuming that in the passage you quote, George knew he wasn't speaking Biblical truth? That is, he's making fun of something that Christians themselves don't even believe. So how is that funny?

Maybe I'm just more of a Lewis Black fan.

Brambleton writes:

"I know that might sound elitist, but I'm sorry, when 20% of the population is paying 80% of the tax, there's a problem."

Not if 20% of the population is MAKING 80% of the money:

"Wealth Distribution in the USA

In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands. As of 2001, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 33.4% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 51%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 84%, leaving only 16% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers). In terms of financial wealth, the top 1% of households had an even greater share: 39.7%. Table 1 and Figure 1 present further details drawn from the careful work of economist Edward N. Wolff at New York University (2004)."

view Tables at: ...http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html...

He lived his life without God and his bitter angry diatribes were the result. He now gets his wish and will be in the coldest loneliest place there is -HELL

Mr Mark,

Good points. But I still fail to see why the "rich" should be taxed substantially more than anyone else. Why should anyone be penalized because they have accumulated wealth or are in a position of significant importance (i.e., CEO, CFO, President, etc.)?

Sarcasm aside, I truly don't understand the logic.

And christians like f**k head GWB who start wars that kill thousands of people. Remember GWB said jesus was his favorite philospher. Would jesus say, "Right on, dude, let's start the bombing and spread some freedom. Shock and awe them, dubya!"

What will nutjobs like you do when GWB leaves office? Who then will you obsess about, blame for eveything YOU see wrong in the world? Get help, quickly nutjob.

Anon says:"You've got some issues you are unknowingly airing on a public board if you believe that a statement of belief you don't believe in is "hateful, wrathful and vindictive".

I also think it's hateful, etc. to believe in honor killings, even though I don't believe in them myself. I generally think it's hateful to wish unpleasant things, even imaginary ones, on other people. For instance, I don't think it's healthy to focus on wishing people that you don't like will have some terrible illness befall them, even if you can't make the illness happen. I don't know any moral code that condones that sort of thing. But certain Christians do think it's OK, even good, to publicly wish eternal suffering on others. I have issues with that.

Mr. Mark,

The following is a bit of Biblical Scholarship for you.

"Luke used the term "hegemon", which is a broader term than "governor", and may well be referring to the administrative role Cyrenius (Quirinius) was assigned as opposed to being titled as "governor".

Cyrenius' history is indeed well documented. He ruled both Syria and Judea after the year 6 A. D. when Archelaus was deposed as king of Judea. Both scripture and Josephus indicate this was well after Jesus� birth and Herod�s death (Mat 2:1,16,22; Antiquities 17.8.1-4, 17.13.1-5;18.1.1-6). Armenian historian Moses of Khorene (Armenian History 2:26) says that in 3 B. C. Roman authorities came to Armenia to set up images of Caesar Augustus in the temples of the area. These same sources state that it was the registration mentioned in Luke which brought them there. The purpose of this registration was to record an official declaration of allegiance from all of his subjects to present to Caesar Augustus in celebration of his Silver Jubilee.

History records that Varus was governor of Syria from about 7 B.C. to about 4 B.C. and was not a trustworthy leader. However, Cyrenius was a notable military leader. During the census of 8-7 B.C., Augustus entrusted Cyrenius with Palestine, effectively superseding the authority and governorship of Varus by appointing Cyrenius to a place of special authority. Cyrenius administered in Syria on two separate occasions, once while prosecuting the military action against the Homonadensians between 12 and 2 B.C., and later beginning about A.D. 6. A Latin inscription discovered in 1764 has been interpreted to refer to Cyrenius as having served as governor of Syria on two occasions.

History records that Cyrenius was on assignment in Syria during this time and was one of the few trusted leaders. It is probable that Varus was on his way out while Cyrenius was taking charge of matters during Luke's narration.

Luke has proven himself over and over throughout the centuries to be a reliable historian, even in the details. In his making reference to 32 countries, 54 cities, and 9 islands, Luke made no mistakes."

Again, Mark. You're missing the point. God is interested in how smart you are, he's interested in how willing you are.

With Love,

Brambleton:

Got you, man! You've revealed what you're all about. A right wing economic royalist who uses religion to manipulate the unwashed mobs into voting against their own self interest. A very clever use of the religion to promote the interests of Wall Street and corporate America. Very clever, indeed!

"I don't support the redistribution of wealth"

I thought the jesus in your bible was the ultimate socialist? Didn't the jesus you believe in preach sharing your wealth, taking care of the poor, blah, blah, blah. What about the quote "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Where in your bible does it say give millionaires and billionaires a capital gains tax cut?

I'm still trying to figure out why the christian right hitched their wagon to the republican party? Was their some kind of deal made?

Was the deal that you bible thumpers could rant and rave all you want about stupid sh!t like abortion, gay marriage, embryonic stem cells, school prayer but to keep you're f**king mouth shut about social and economic justice or anything else that might cost us, the economic royalists, money and we'll both do ok?

I remember George saying that when you die your soul goes to a garage in Buffalo.

I also remember him saying that religion has a purpose but you must outgrow it.

He also said something about foreign missions being nothing more than nailing sandals/shoes onto the feet of natives.

What I believe George was saying most profoundly was something about the incredible spiritual materialsm that Christianity is so proud of and touts as if it was the truth.

Spiritual materialism is the desire to be "more holy", "more moral", "more 'spiritual'" than anyone. We see it so readily on every religious TV station. The most blatant and current example of it would be the Joel Osteen nonsense and the Osteen-tards that fill that place up every chance they get. But Christians never run out of that crap. They're so hungry for something real.

George was a deeply spiritual man in that he lived and loved this life in a connected way. He took risks, he oppossed the ones who think they are "the ones" and he made sure that we all knew we had options that did not include creating false personalties to impress others and seduce god into believing we're really super-fine people.

George ain't in no stinkin' heaven. I would be appalled if he were. I pray to god I never will be. What torture to be around all those arrogant Christians playing harps. But I am confident in this, he IS in that garage in Buffalo and he's having a great time of it.

James

"What will nutjobs like you do when GWB leaves office?"

I and the rest of the planet will breathe a collective sigh of relief when the war criminal GWB leaves office.

I have two wishes. The first wish is that war criminals GWB, cheney, rumsfeld, and rice be tried at the Hague for war crimes against humanity. My second wish is that GWB and cheney be found guilty and then publicly hanged in the same manner as saddam hussein.

George said what so many of us feel. It doesn't mean he was correct, but at least he let those of us who agonize over faith know that we're not alone. It's easy to see why people become cynical about organized religion given the way its practitioners behave. I don't think there's a single belief system that hasn't been screwed up by humans. I have a problem with any religion that claims to be the only one, the only true way to get to "heaven." It's wonderful that so many people seem to "know" that they are "saved," but it's not a feeling I've ever had and may never have. I don't know what you'd call me -- someone who believes in a higher power but doesn't yet know exactly which way is best to practice that faith. A confusedtarian, maybe?

Brambleton writes:

"Mr Mark,

Good points. But I still fail to see why the "rich" should be taxed substantially more than anyone else. Why should anyone be penalized because they have accumulated wealth or are in a position of significant importance (i.e., CEO, CFO, President, etc.)?"

Were all things equal, I would agree with you. But the fact is that most Americans who are rich have inherited their wealth. They are not self-made entrepreneurs by any stretch of the imagination.

Next, there are the unfair advantages that are given to the rich every day of the week that the rabble will never see, advantages in the tax code, for example. When Warren Buffet acknowledges that his secretary is taxed at a higher rate than is he, there's something very wrong with the system.

And, in the real world, the rich have untold advantages in being able to pay cash for possessions like homes and cars, while the middle class and the poor deal with subprime loans and soaring credit card debt. Anybody with a 30-year mortgage will have paid 300% of their home's original value by the time they pay off the mortgage. A rich person paid that mortgage as cash or on a 10-year fixed rate.

The current tax code along with government bailouts to big business amount to socialization of costs and privatization of profit. A progressive tax code seeks to compensate for these built-in inequities. A flat tax ignores them.

I don't know many Americans who would be against a 90% tax rate on the rich if they were making $1MM per year. They'd be happy with keeping $100,000. But the reality is that most American families are making under $50,000 per year and paying 25% in taxes. That means that they're left with about $36k when all is said and done. That's lunch and a back rub for America's super rich.

Nobody said that godless capitalism was a perfect system, but it can and should be made a less-imperfect system. Taxing the rich at higher rates as an offset to the myriad advantages they already receive seems equitable to me.

BTW - I've never made more than $150k in a given year, so I'm hardly rich. The years I've done well and owned a home, I've been more than happy to pay my fair share of taxes. It's part of the social contract we all have in a capitalistic democracy. That my fair share is a higher percentage of my income than that of someone less fortunate doesn't bother me. It does bother me that Warren Buffet pays a lower percentage than do I.

Am I crazy, or is the present system unfair?

George Carlin had the courage to tell the truth, but in a way that made us laugh at the absurdity of the ways in which we hide from truth. He also had the courage to face the fact that when you die, you're dead, finito, end of story. That is something that takes the most courage. It is easy to laugh at life, but not at the reality of death. George Carlin laughed at both. That's what made him a comedians comedian, and that's no laughing matter.

Where do atheists go when they die?

Exactly where they want!

Where do atheists go when they die?

Exactly where they want!

Dear Believe -

All you've proved through your posts to me is that you are just another Xian who is unable to give a straight answer and who is unwilling to admit when they've lost an argument.

You say "Name something in the Bible that is not true," I point you to Luke. You offer a non-answer: "Luke has proven himself over and over throughout the centuries to be a reliable historian, even in the details. In his making reference to 32 countries, 54 cities, and 9 islands, Luke made no mistakes."

EXCEPT FOR THE DETAIL THAT'S THE F**KING DATING OF JESUS' BIRTH, WHICH HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9 ISLANDS OR 32 COUNTRIES.

Why can't you bring yourself to admit the contradiction between Matthew and Luke? Afraid you'll lose your faith?

And - as to be expected - when the Xian's "facts" are shown not to be true, the facts blissfully traipse over into metaphor-land: "Again, Mark. You're missing the point. God is [isn't?]interested in how smart you are, he's interested in how willing you are."

Mr Mark,

Allow this believer to commend you on your views and your ability to do research and present it well. I was trying to compose something to Brambleton when your post hit.

In 1963, the highest tax rate was 91%. It was lowered the next year, under the democrats, to 70%. In 1982, it was lowered to 50% under Reagan. In 1987, it was lowered again to 39.6 or so. The Shrub lowered it to 35%. He then proceeded to give us a war, a record deficit, expand spending, and manage to send the dollar down to record low levels.... not to mention other lovely things, like torture and the perversion of the constitution... what a knuckledragging monster.

And Brambleton, with his robber baron mentality, thinks that is just fine. Where does he get his weird idea of Christianity, anyway? It sure as hell ain't from the Gospels.

Keep it up!

Arminius

carlin was indeed funny. i died laughing at him on Yutube yesterday. it was my first time as i was lost to america's tv personalities during the sixties and much of the seventies. but i feel that a careful examination of carlin's ideas indicate a rather empty tin can with the marble (it was hardly a mere stone). he mouthed the nihiltic culture that destroyed many in the sixties and early seventies,and that drove the following generation into a radicalism that represents the most cravish accomodation to the status quo, while wallowing in mindless consumerism. There was nothing new about his attacks on religion and tradition, favorites of the enlightenment self-legitimation tactics for quite some time, except that he threw in the F-word, the nihilistic attitude that is ironically the outcome of the enlightenment, with and its state and individual human reason as lawgivers. He attacked religion for it's inclination to go to war, but forgot modernist universalisms: communism, fascism and liberal democracy. Yes, that icon too. Just look at george and the neo cons headed for the oil fields to bring democracy to the middle east. Look at US policy during the Cold War. Democracy at the barrel of a gun, really no different from the Russian or Chinese gun except that some businessmen made a fortune. These three killed, and killed lots more than any wars of religion. About a hundren million actually, and that does not include the dead in Iraq, and the four million refugees that are close to the living dead. Carlin attacked consumerism, which is nothing other than rampant egoism, in fact anomic egoism in a materialist market determined world that can produce anything and everything that can be imagined by anybody. The human imagination for entertainment gadgets is indeed limitless. But did any of these attacks give Carlin a lead on what an alternative world might look like. i don't know whether or not Carlin took the hippie in the woods route, but i doubt it. Did he have a woodshed for the toilet activities he seemed to know so intimately? or did he too have a jacuzzi? does it matter? No. whether he took a dump into an Asian style hole in the ground or had a golden throne, it had not one whit of an influence over our world. His greatest impact, was to legitimate the naysayers, those who stand for nothing except their freedom to do whatever they please no matter what the consequences. Yes, Carlin was entertaining or so i found him, but that does not blind me to the lack of content.

They go to the same place all humans go, back to nature, remaining only in the memory of loved ones or if one is a pol, the history books, for good or bad. In Bush's case, he be bad.

Carlin was funny back in his early years, but in last fifteen, he was nothing more than a whiny has-been. George Burns was funny right up to his 100th year of existence. George Carlin lost it and didn't know when to quit. And all the hateful comments he made about Jews and Israel were all it took to make me despise him. It amazes me that a professed atheist could take such cheap shots at a religious group so persecuted, a group that has always kept to itself and never caused any trouble for anyone else. What the heck was it about Jews and Israel that George Carlin and his following felt so threatened that they had to lash out at them so much?

I won't miss him at all. Good riddance!

If the truth gets you in Heaven he is probably the only one there.

Wesley: "He (George Carlin) lived his life without God and his bitter angry diatribes were the result. He now gets his wish and will be in the coldest loneliest place there is -HELL"

What happen to the fire and brimstone of hell that makes it a hot and hellish place to be?

And who says Hell is the loneliest place there is? Pol Pot, Stalin, Hitler, Timurlane, Saddam Hussein..the list goes on of people said will go to hell by some other people. Most interesting place for George Carlin in fact. He'd love it there and have no shortage of materials.

*************************************************

Surfbum : "The whole bible is a bunch of sh!t. I think I would like to wipe my ass with a bible."

Anonymous: "Wow surfbum- that was brave. You know how wrathul those vindictive Christians are. Now as an equal opportunity haters of all religions- I dare you to make that statement about the Koran."

--------------------------------------------------

Hello Surfbum,

Uhhh!

No toilet paper on the beach, eh? And using one of the seven words not to use on TV and WaPo as first tabulated by George Carlin?

Where can we send you a ton of or a lifetime supply of toilet paper as a humanitarian act since you obviously can't afford it?

Excuse me? Oh. You were making a militant anti-religion statement and personal plan of action to smite and wipe out religion! I see......Okay.

How's the surf, Surfbum? Up?

If not, pray to God for a good surf. Bar that, listen to the weather report. Hope there's no tsunami when you are surfing. If there be a tsunami while you are surfing, well, consider it either an act of nature or a scourge of God.

We will not pray for you to find and be in peace or to rest in peace, whichever comes first, as you obviously don't want us to. Ah, well, one less fellow to pray for. Whew!

--------------------------------------------------

Hello Anonymous,

Surfbum can always purchase a copy of the Qur'an to wipe his/her whatever. He or she can even call CNN, BBC, Al Jazeera to cover that event. Or he or she can video that and put it on YouTube. It will be the most popular video on YouTube.

Then we'll demonstrate and rampage in the streets chanting "Off with Surfbum's Surfboard!" or "Surfbum is a scumbag!" or "Surfbum's bum is nothing!" And such...

Cheers to George Carlin
buried or cremated

"J"

I find it very interesting that the generic atheist response to the point that 90% of Americans are believers was to say how stupid and/or gullible the 90% are (usually in terms associated with the Bush adminstration). Do all atheists inherently believe that they are smarter that the rest of us?

As for proof of God. You can't see or measure God because anyone or anything capable of creating a universe is too big for us to contemplate directly. However, you can see the work that he does and extrapolate his existence from it. I'm sure you are all aware of the arguments associated with the order of the universe requiring intelligence to create and maintain. If there is a law of gravity, there needs to be a law maker. Not one of you has given a good answer to the problem of how order was created from chaos without a God to order it.

While the existence of God the father can be discerned with Logic and observation, I submit that existence of Christ the son relies on the credibility of accounts through the ages. Maybe some of you doubt that credibility. That is your right.

Here's what I believe: It can be demonstrated to most reasonable people that the coming of a messiah had been foretold for hundreds of years prior to the birth of Jesus. Jesus told us he was the son of God and worked a number of miracles as testimony to that fact, according to a number of witnesses, many of whom ultimately died rather than deviate from that truth. He preached a gospel of love, stating that only two things were required : love God and love your neighbor as yourself. As the final proof of his divinity, Jesus was crucified, died and then rose from the dead, a fact St. Paul tells us was witnessed by over 500 people.
In the 2000 years since this occurred, there continue to be miracles as testimony to its truth, including the healings at Lourdes, the stigmata of Padre Pio, and the dancing of the sun at Fatima (all in the last 150 years). I'm sure that some will say that none of this is believable and will attempt to poke holes in it but to me its a pretty strong body of data that seems credible to me.

Amy says it best! Nothing more needs to be said except I will miss George Carlin very much. Just knowing he was out there, in more ways than one, was a comfort to me.

OK, so a lot of what is in the Bible can be traced historically. But the Bible was passed on as oral history, then edited by men -- Christian men -- who had a stake in the matter. By the time the first book was written, Christ had been dead nearly 100 years. There is no "proof" other than hearsay that many of the events in the life of Christ actually happened. I'm not saying they didn't, but unless you have Polaroids of Christ casting out demons, these things have to be taken on faith. I had a recently converted Christian tell me repeatedaly that there were no dinosaurs because they were not mentioned in the Bible. She couldn't quite explain the bones we keep finding. It's that kind of blind acceptance of the Bible as totally true that makes thinking Christians look bad.

Another former alter boy gone bad! I mean sensible: "Just knowing he (George Carlin) was out there, in more ways than one, was a comfort to me."

Yes. Obviously Mr. George Carlin is still "out there". We still have and can buy or rent his performances in CDs and DVDs to continue giving "comfort" and/or "discomfort" depending on your sense of humour.

Sensible of Mr. Carlin to make records and taped shows, no?

Cheers
"J"

Nice argument, Paul C. And I guess Santa Claus exists because I was told he'd leave presents under the tree and it became true.

There is no proof of God's existence. Believers and disbelievers need to agree to disagree.

Dave: "Nice argument, Paul C. And I guess Santa Claus exists because I was told he'd leave presents under the tree and it became true."

Come now. Of course Santa exist! We can see him, touch him, feel him, sit on his lap, and speak to him around Christmas. For Topeka to Tokyo there be Santa and more Santa around a certain season.

And who says all Santas are "he"? I've seen svelte female Santas in Rio wearing red bikinis. A feast for the eyes and gifts to dads doing Christmas shopping in shooping malls and departmental stores.

Believe in Santa. They are real.

Cheers and out of here.

"J"

Jihadist,

You delightfully said, "And who says all Santas are "he"? I've seen svelte female Santas in Rio wearing red bikinis."

And you just converted this 65 year old to a believer in Santa Claus! Now if I can just get to Rio this December.....

Arminius

Thomas wrote:
You might prefer to live among a non-believer majority under an atheistic form of government. That is clearly available to you- but you might be surprised and long to be back among the "inferior and stupid" American masses.
-----------------

Or not.

I emigrated from the US over two years ago and don't miss it one little bit. Not ANY of it. The secular government is fine with me. My neighbors are friendly and charming. I have no idea whether they are theists or not. It's none of my business, just as my religion is none of theirs. I worship as I see fit.

(Ok. The Yankees. I miss the Yankees. And sweet corn. Alright, I miss autumn in New England.)

What I don't miss are those ignorant American busybody evangelicals, and the mindless natterings of the hyper-patriots who believe that 'Merica is some superior entity especially blessed by a God of their own invention.

The sun shines in France, Spain, and Italy too. Deal with it.

Nothing... and I mean NOTHING could induce me to return to the US.

Just saying....

"You can't see or measure God because anyone or anything capable of creating a universe is too big for us to contemplate directly."

Then again, it could be that something capable of creating the universe would also be capable of showing himself in some more convincing way than crucifying his son, putting stigmata in some obscure priest and making the sun dance over a Portuguese village.

Ms. Hoffman,

I guess you still don't get George Carlin.

When you ask, "what happens to us when we die?"

Who cares, you're dead!

Heather, when did Carlin ever say anything hateful about the Jews or Israel? If he criticized or ridiculed them, you must know that he never singled out anyone for this treatment. He was an equal opportunity comedian.

My oh my, the jesus freaks running around here are scary... think for yourselves people, the mind is a beautiful thing.

I'd put Carlin in heaven playing frizbee for making people's lives happy on earth....

whil placing Dubya in hell .. for making life seem like hell for millions of people on earth!!

Same place everyone goes when they die. They get recycled. Or you can make up a fairy tale that makes you feel better. Go ahead, it's OK.

Dear Paul C -

My, but you mangle the scriptures! To whit, you wrote:

"Here's what I believe: It can be demonstrated to most reasonable people that the coming of a messiah had been foretold for hundreds of years prior to the birth of Jesus."

Yes, but the promised messiah of the OT bears no resemblance to the one who showed up in the NT, and the one who showed up in the NT bore quite a bit of resemblance to the pagan gods that were popular at the time. Fancy that!

Is it "reasonable" to believe that god would promise the Jews a warrior messiah whose advent on earth would instantly usher in an era of peace and justice, only to switch over to the resurrection god model of the pagans, a model roundly rejected by Judaism, even to this day? If you believe that, then it is reasonable to believe god breaks his promises.

"Jesus told us he was the son of God"

and I'm the president of the USA...

"...and worked a number of miracles as testimony to that fact,"

...of which no proof exists outside of the hearsay of the NT...

"...according to a number of witnesses..."

again, none from outside the NT...

"...many of whom ultimately died rather than deviate from that truth."

...give us the name of ONE person who was witness to Christ's supposed miracles who died rather than deviate from "the truth." Clue - any stories about his apostles doing so are undocumented and the stuff of religious tradition, a tradition that is entirely missing from the Biblical canon.

"As the final proof of his divinity, Jesus was crucified, died and then rose from the dead, a fact St. Paul tells us was witnessed by over 500 people."

Here, you are quite wrong.

Paul states clearly that he saw a "vision" of Jesus. He never claimed that he saw a corporeal Jesus. Paul emphatically does not claim that 500 people witnessed Jesus crucifixion, death and return from the dead, which is what your post implies. What Paul states is that Jesus "appeared unto 500...and finally, unto me." As Paul clearly states that he saw Jesus only as a vision, then it is also clear that he meant that the 500 ALSO saw Jesus only as A VISION.

And just how reliable were these 500 Christian witnesses when confronted with their "I saw Jesus, did you see Jesus?" friends? I'd say, not very.

You "believe" a pretty unique and ill-informed interpretation of some pretty clear crap from the NT.

Thomas wrote:
You might prefer to live among a non-believer majority under an atheistic form of government. That is clearly available to you- but you might be surprised and long to be back among the "inferior and stupid" American masses.
-----------------

Or not.

I emigrated from the US over two years ago and don't miss it one little bit. Not ANY of it. The secular government is fine with me. My neighbors are friendly and charming. I have no idea whether they are theists or not. It's none of my business, just as my religion is none of theirs. I worship as I see fit.

(Ok. The Yankees. I miss the Yankees. And sweet corn. Alright, I miss autumn in New England.)

What I don't miss are those ignorant American busybody evangelicals, and the mindless natterings of the hyper-patriots who believe that 'Merica is some superior entity especially blessed by a God of their own invention.

The sun shines in France, Spain, and Italy too. Deal with it.

Nothing... and I mean NOTHING could induce me to return to the US.

Just saying....

George Carlin achieved true immortality through his work.

Brambleton wrote: "Fate, You said, "I consider anyone who supports our current president and his policies to be unAmerican." C'mon - you can't be serious. I'm guessing that, inherently, you meant the support of SOME of his policies?"

Actually, I only supported his decision to go to war with Afganistan's Taliban and Al Qaida, both of which he screwed up as evidenced by 7 years later we are still fighting that war and neither leader has been captured or killed, and worse, I have to watch them on TV threatening me and live in fear.

You also did not quote my full sentence, which explained my statement. Here is the full sentence:
"I consider anyone who supports our current president and his policies to be unAmerican, not because I hate Bush but because I love our Constitution, which Bush was overheard to say was a g-dd-mned pience of paper."

Brambleton wrote: "Or I guess I'm "unAmerican" because I don't support the redistribution of wealth? Or maybe I'm "unAmerican" because I don't believe you should tax the H*ll out of the rich just because you can. I know that might sound elitist, but I'm sorry, when 20% of the population is paying 80% of the tax, there's a problem."

We can disagree on these points, but they have nothing to do with whether you love the Constitution or whether you get upset when you see it trampled on. Do you love the Constitution? Do you feel CIA agents should be exposed as a political vendetta? Do you believe hiring and firing of Justice employees should be done by political appointees looking for conservative credentials? Do you believe that to get a bill passed, as Medicare part D was, that you lie about the cost and threaten career civil servants with being fired to maintain the lie? Legislation that Bush supports or does not support is a minor problem. The trampling of our Constitution and the destruction of our government is a much larger problem, and that is why Bush supporters are unAmerican. The evidence is clear and more is coming to light every day. Anyone who continues to support Bush must not support the Constitution, plain and simple. Now, is Bush going to hell for swearing on a bible he would preserve, protect and defend the very Constitution he disparaged and has trampled?

Fate,

Well said about the knuckledragger in the White House. Like you, I supported our war in Afghanistan, and even at my age would have willingly re-enlisted in the Army to go and fight, if they would have taken me back. I grieved when we blew it at Tora Bora, due to the demented Sec of Defense, and grieve today at our feeble efforts there and our truly stupid war in Iraq.

I've about had it with Brambleton. As I said above, I am an Army vet, 1968-1970. No, I did not go to 'Nam. I served in West Berlin, and learned to hate any authoritarian state after a visit to East Berlin. The oppression there was almost a physical feeling in the air. I will never forget it. I assume that Brambleton knows little or nothing about the military. The oath a soldier takes begins: "I [name] to swear [or affirm] that I will uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States, against all enemies, domestic and foreign...". The rest is about obeying the orders of superior officers. I still hold to that first part of the oath. Therefore, since the Shrub is perverting our Constitution, he is a domestic enemy....

Can't wait for Brambleton to come back with a God, motherhood, and apple pie argument.

Arminius

How sad that so many people are so tied to their particular beliefs in the after life that they are fixated on where George Carlin is now. If,as some believe, people live on in the memories of those they touched, George is certainly immortal.

GermanProf,

You wrote:

"Where do atheists go when they die?

"Exactly where they want!"

As you probably know, Emanuel Swedenborg (1688 - 1772) agreed with you.

He claimed to have visited the afterlife worlds and found that everyone, believer or atheist, ended up where he would be happiest.

Those who truly enjoyed angels and harp music found them. Those who really were most content in the middle of barfights found themselves thoroughly enjoying such brawls until they decided to move on.

For those unfamiliar with Emanuel Swedenborg and who might dismiss him as a dreamer or a psychotic, consider:

**He was an engineer and metallurgist with an international reputation and the chief inspector of the Swedish mines.

**At a public meeting in Copenhagen, 200 miles from Stockholm, he gave the attendees a moment-by-moment, real-time, description of the great fire which was then engulfing Stockholm.

**He predicted to several people the exact hour and day of his death, with which he seemed completely unconcerned.

Brambleton wrote: "Fate, Could you tell me what religion or other belief system includes the resurrection of the body? Don't bother because you won't find it. The Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus Christ is the single, most unique hope."

In the Egyptian Book of the Dead, if your body is prepared properly and you lived a good life as the book describes, and Osiris judges you as good (just as one day you believe you will be judged), you will be resurrected and be given a good afterlife. Ancient Egyptians believed this would happen to them and had happened to previous pharoahs.

And why is resurrection so important? Are you afraid of death? Why? You will be just where you were before you were born. Was that so bad? I can certainly understand why someone would want to stay alive. There is a lot to live for. But once dead, I cannot understand why someone would want to continue to exist in another form. Its always been a question my believer friends have a hard time answering. Just why do you want to continue to exist after you die? Or maybe you are more worried about avoiding hell. Got to hand it to the Christians giving you both an incentive to maintain your faith, and a disincentive to loose you faith. Clever.

Now, can you please explain how a monotheistic religion can have a God, a God's son and his human mother (and boyfriend Joseph), a "holy spirit", many angels and many saints, all of which can be prayed to and can answer prayers? Which saint do you call your own? Mine was Francis of Assisi, the patron saint of animals. I prayed to him all the time assured he would answer my prayers, which usually had something to do with having the nuns not beat me the next day in school. I know, they were beating me to make sure my soul goes to heaven. I guess I should thank them...

On Mr. Carlin,

A mere vegetable of society that sprang up at night and sank again in his noon.

Tax the rich in the name of "fairness".

Redistribute wealth.

Call for the destruction of all religion in the name of rational thought.

Desecrate religious texts.

Shout down anyone who disagrees and paint them as a radical.

Never criticize a fellow comrade.

I'm loving it.

When I was a kid in catechism class, I, like I suspect many kids did, wondered at some of the things about the lessons that did not seem to make any sense. Cain's wife, Noah, etc. What really made me wonder was the description of heaven, which sounded a lot like a combination of an eternal church service and a family reunion (that is, with the family members who were not roasting on the eternal spit (i.e., the ones I liked)).

As I got older, I eventually realized I did not believe any of it anymore. My extended family went the other direction. Looks like I'm the odd one out. Still, I'll take that over church for an eternity.

Nothing discredits Christianity more than its insistence that belief is commanded and rewarded. If it's so important, why does God leave it to chance? It's obviously calculated by humans to secure your support.

Mr. Mark:
Can you not see that you are twisting scripture to make your point. First of all, your critique has exactly 3 points:

1) You think that the old testament called for a warrior messiah but you are greatly mislead as were the Jews of the time. They thought God cared about politics, when he really cared about salvation. Thus, the suffering servant of Isaiah and the psalms and the explanations of this in the NT.

2) You disregard anything written about Jesus as unverifiable, including scriptures. If you said the same thing about George Washington, you could convince yourself he never existed. Its fair for you to feel this way but it makes you a skeptic, not a bible scholar.

3 you argue that I misread about the number of eyewitnesses to Jesus' resurrection. How is it a clear extension that Paul Seeing Jesus as a vision meant that the other 500 could not have seen him in the flesh?

Beyond saying you don't believe anything that happened 2000 years ago, do you also have an answer for the modern day miracles that are documented in secular papers and have led to numerous conversions of atheists (Like Lourdes and Fatima)?

All this put together is either a simple truth or a very elaborate hoax, propagated over 2000 years. I vote for the former, I'm sure you see it as the latter. We'll never know if you are right because that would mean we would just stop existing after death. If I am right, we will both know...

Norrie Hoyt - thanks for the snapshot of Swedenborg. A visionary on the order of William Blake, but also a man of many talents, and an all-around Swedish renaissance man on the order of a Da vinci as well - scientist, mathematician, inventor, artist and.... Lutheran minister. And not your ordinary minister by an stretch.

You are correct in that he claimed to have made many journeys to the realm of the afterlife. These experiences appeared to be of the nature of visions. He documents these travels in great detail. His other religious works are voluminous. Quite an extraordinary man, by any standard.

There are a number of websites dedicated to Swedenborg and his work, including details of his many visits to the afterworld.

When I think of Carlin dying, I think of a wonderful bit that Steve Martin did on one of his albums, namely an atheist dying and finding himself at the pearly gates: "But in college, they said this was all bull****!"

I suspect that Carlin will get in anyway. He was too funny, and, besides, God likes to have the last laugh . . .

Norrie Hoyt - thanks for the snapshot of Swedenborg. A visionary on the order of William Blake, but also a man of many talents, and an all-around Swedish renaissance man on the order of a Da vinci as well - scientist, mathematician, inventor, artist and.... Lutheran minister. And not your ordinary minister by an stretch.

You are correct in that he claimed to have made many journeys to the realm of the afterlife. These experiences appeared to be of the nature of visions. He documents these travels in great detail. His other religious works are voluminous. Quite an extraordinary man, by any standard.

There are a number of websites dedicated to Swedenborg and his work, including details of his many visits to the afterworld.

paul c wrote:

--"In the 2000 years since this occurred, there continue to be miracles as testimony to its truth, including the healings at Lourdes, the stigmata of Padre Pio, and the dancing of the sun at Fatima (all in the last 150 years). I'm sure that some will say that none of this is believable and will attempt to poke holes in it but to me its a pretty strong body of data that seems credible to me."

Why doesn't god ever, ever, EVER heal amputees?

Have you ever looked directly into the sun for more than a second or two? Every time I do, it does some pretty amazing things.

By the way, if you're interested, according to the Lourdes online gift shop catalog, Lourdes holy water goes for about $38,000 per barrel.

You know what I love about the whole dying thing, Carlin, and God. When he gets before God I can just envision God saying “Oh Mr. funny man. The man with the jokes about me. Lets hear some of that quick wit now. Better yet I have another person I know you can entertain for the rest of the eternity in some of the worse heat you will ever experience. YOU ARE THE BIGGEST LOSER, BUH BYE.

George Carlin is dead. That's it. That's all there is.

i'm pretty sure that George and You Know Who are sitting around talking about how you don't get how good He made it for you. they'll chuckle a lot.

i can almost hear his routine now(the clean version). afterlife? what kind of crazy idea is that. after only a few hours in my grave, the eggs the flies laid already are becoming maggots that will eat my body. some day down the road, except for my bones, there will be nothing but dust in my coffin. but that's okay with me because i am dead and won't be feeling a thing. i have been in that condition since i died. i ceased to exist. and that's all right with me because i don't have to listen to the twaddle about heaven or hell or that pergatory thing the catholics have never been able to explain. i am dead, dead, dead.

Thomas -- wise choice for me to dwell in a country where minority views are protected. You may not like it that I don't share your views but your president can't throw me into jail for it or deny me my voting rights. YAY for AMERICA!!!! Thomas if that really bugs you, you should try moving to some country where religious "law" prevails, like Iran or Saudi Arabia.

Altar boy - tyvm!

I can see Fred in the afterlife now -- for the hubris of thinking he has the "truth" and knows what happens to others after they die, he's condemned to live the next 500 lifetimes as a cockroach.

I love revenge fantasies. If I can't bump someone off myself or make them suffer in this life, I can make up a deity or a fairy tale about afterlives and punish them in my mind. It's so so so satisfying it must be right, right?

Fate, you said "But once dead, I cannot understand why someone would want to continue to exist in another form. Its always been a question my believer friends have a hard time answering. Just why do you want to continue to exist after you die?"

I wonder about that too. If comfort and hope are the criteria for deciding what's true and what's not, I find the idea of an immortal soul and "heaven" bloody boring and no comfort at all. No jazz musicians, no gay people (who does the decorating?), no dogs or animals of any kind (they have no souls), and I get to spend eternity with my grandmother, who has been watching over everything I've been doing since I was 13. There are some things grandmothers just shouldn't see. If she's been watching those things I don't want to discuss them with her.

Then there's the amount of time. If you're there for eternity what do you do? You can't have sex, eat, or do anything physical. You can't even tap your foot in impatience because you have no feet. In life I kill time by window shopping, taking long walks, admiring the sunsets and rainbows... can't do any of that in heaven. Is eternity like waiting in line at the bank but worse? And for the first 50 years or so I have to keep an eye on the people I left behind on earth, which would get annoying. I'm not interested in watching my nephew get his first colonoscopy when he turns 40.

I find the idea of the end being the end much more comforting.

Paul C writes:

"All this put together is either a simple truth or a very elaborate hoax."

I strongly disagree with your assessment that the hoax of Xianity is at all elaborate.

Quite the contrary, it employs the archetypical characters of many, many religions that predated it. It uses sticks and carrots to get people in and keep them from leaving. And, reason and truth are its greatest enemies. Nothing elaborate in that. It's religion's stock in trade.

Your posts have an undercurrent of fear to them that is undeniable. Fear is a great motivator. John McCain is hoping to gain the WH this fall by running a campaign of fear, though his handler rather let the cat out of the bag yesterday.

Final thought: my interpretation of the Bible is just as valid if not more valid than yours. In fact, my view of Jesus is much closer to that of the early Gnostic Xians who believed Jesus was a spirit and not a corporeal being. Paul believed the same thing, and Paul was the inventor of Xianity.

In any case, the Jesus story is a myth. One misses the beauty of the story and its organic connection to other early religions when one attempts to move the story into the realm of reality. The Jesus story only makes sense if it viewed as an allegory, not as an actual historical life.

Keep searching. Someday you'll see what I'm talking about.

Arminius-

I would agree that the rich should be taxed more. The question is how much more. You don't want to tax those that are rich, but employ the middle class with their wealth- who reinvest into the economy. Also, it is a controversy within Christian circles whether the govt is the vehicle to help the poor and impoverished. I believe it should to a degree, but the welfare reform of the 90's was spot on.

As far as waterboarding goes, I find that to be okay. It is not going to kill the terrorist, and will lead to information we can't get otherwise.

Of course the rich should be taxed more, just like, IMO, the govt should spend less than it does.

Our govt is out of control, and both sides- dems and pubs, have made it that way.

Paul C writes:

"You disregard anything written about Jesus as unverifiable, including scriptures. If you said the same thing about George Washington, you could convince yourself he never existed. Its fair for you to feel this way but it makes you a skeptic, not a bible scholar."

Paul, this is one of the lamest of all arguments you Xians trollop out as a diversionary tactic. It doesn't work.

How do we know George Washington existed?

We have his bones sitting in his tomb.
We have his writings, papers and effects.
We have the writings of his CONTEMPORARIES, men who lived along side him
We have collaborating evidence of his existence from multiple, unsympathetic sources.
We have clear and voluminous historical record of his life.

I could go on and one, but the point is:

NONE OF THIS REAL EVIDENCE EXISTS FOR JESUS.

And, we as an intelligent people have abandoned the fictions we once held about Washington, like his chopping down a cherry tree. With jesus, we have nothing EXCEPT stories of him chopping down cherry trees.

There's a huge difference between the truth that Washington existed and the fiction that Jesus existed. This you can't deny...but you will.

Amy,

Well, this is how one somewhat unconventional believer regards heaven.

Gotta be big, slobbery dogs, purring cats, butterflies, bluebirds, eagles. Friendly wolves, bears that you can walk up to and scratch their ears. Guinness. Conversation. Meeting Socrates, Gandhi, St Patrick.... I hope....

But, I tell ya what. If I get there, I will say this to God: "Lord, this is really great, but I won't do you much good here. Please send me back to Earth - there's still much work to be done!"

I would agree that the rich should be taxed more. The question is how much more. You don't want to tax those that are rich, but employ the middle class with their wealth- who reinvest into the economy. Also, it is a controversy within Christian circles whether the govt is the vehicle to help the poor and impoverished. I believe it should to a degree, but the welfare reform of the 90's was spot on.

As far as waterboarding goes, I find that to be okay. It is not going to kill the terrorist, and will lead to information we can't get otherwise.

Of course the rich should be taxed more, just like, IMO, the govt should spend less than it does.

Our govt is out of control, and both sides- dems and pubs, have made it that way.

Mr Mark-

Just to chime in, I have noticed, and this has been for some time(15 years) that many atheists like yourself deny the man's existence. It seems to me that its just a excuse to deny or confront what the man had to say. This way, you don't have to think outside your predetermined box that God does not exist.

The gospels what many or most people would say is very intelligent observations about mankind. How anyone could simply make this stuff up is beyond me.

Paul C is correct- this is either a elaborate hoax, or there is really something to this Jesus fellow.

It's sad you have convinced yourself it is some kind of hoax, or made up story that can't be true.

Your so -called intellect is your worst enemy.

As someone who does not believe there is anything after we die it bugs me that all those who disagree with me will never know they are wrong!!!

If they've bad they are sentenced to attend a Unitarian church everyday for eternity.

If they've bad they are sentenced to attend a Unitarian church everyday for eternity.

Amy and Mr. Mark,

You both seem to have an amazing amount of free-time to bash the believers...why is it so important to you?

Clearly, no minds are going to be changed here.

I don't think naturalism or creationism are going to be proved in our lifetime, so I'm going to go with the one that provides me comfort and hope. That seems a reasonable and rational position...I honestly don't see how your view is any more likely. And before you try and dazzle me with your brilliance...I've read Stenger and Dawkins, and they probably covered all your retorts.

So, get some sleep, you two have had a long day.

Reasonable(?) not hateful:

Your arguments make little sense. You need to fill in the gaps, and elaborate, if you hope to get anywhere with them.

As far as intellect goes - I am a believer, and I know Mr Mark is an atheist. But his intellect beats the hell out of yours six ways from next Tuesday. Read his posts again.

And, oh, yeah. You approve of waterboarding? So, then - and I mean this! - what would Jesus do?

I don't really expect an answer.

Mr Mark,

Of course we don't have the evidence for the historical Jesus that we have for Washington. Paul C really blundered into that one, and you made a great argument.

But... that does not make Jesus a fiction. It would seem that you're letting your feelings about religion get the better of you again. It just means we have no direct proof. We have a lot of indirect proof. I am not a deep enough student of history to elaborate on this - I wish to hell I were.

With respect,

Arminius

Amy wrote:
"There are some things grandmothers just shouldn't see. If she's been watching those things I don't want to discuss them with her."

LOL - this is the kind of thought I've always had when someone who's just, say, won an Olympic Medal dedicates it to his recently dead [fill in the blank] and says something like "I know (s)he was watching..."

How creepy is that? Even in the bathroom??

Believe wants something from the Bible that isn't true? Here are just a few from Levitcus:

"# The bible says that hares and coneys are unclean because they 'chew the cud' but do not part the hoof. But hares and coneys are not ruminants and they do not 'chew the cud'. 11:5-6

# Bats are birds to the biblical God. 11:13, 19

# Four-legged fowls are abominations. 11:20

# Be sure to watch out for those 'other flying creeping things which have four feet.' (I wish God wouldn't get so technical!) I guess he must mean four-legged insects. You'd think that since God made the insects, and so many of them (at least several million species), that he would know how many legs they have! 11:23

# God's law for lepers: Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly off. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient's right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally kill a couple doves and offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. 14:2-52"

There are more - so many that it would strain this blog to list them all; but you can find them at skepticsannotatedbible.com

Read your Bibles!

If God created man then could someone answer this query? Who created God? Could it be: God number two? And, did God number 3 create God number 2? Can anyone say: Eternal enumeration?

If God created man then could someone answer this query? Who created God? Could it be: God number two? And, did God number 3 create God number 2? Can anyone say: Eternal enumeration?

Unless George Carlin repented before he died, he is DOOMED to Hell.

I don't want him to go to hell despite his unbelief, but that is simply the FACT of life.

Eintein's work on his Theory of Special Relativity was just a list of mathematical formulas and based on those formulas, one can deduce that a powerful bomb CAN be made. No such bomb yet existed before he made those formulas but it served as THE CRYSTAL BALL of things to happen.

Based on those formulas, THOSE WHO UNDERSTOOD IT CAN SEE THE FUTURE. The future is that a very powerful bomb will soon exist. And as we all know now, the Atomic Bomb now exist.

The same can be said of the Bible. A big part of the Bible are told in FIGURES OF SPEECH -- metaphors, parables and personifications. Much of these figures of speech are never understood by lots of people including FALSE RELIGIONS like Catholicism, liberal Protestantism, Judaism, etc.

Those who understood Einstein's Formula CANNOT DENY that a very dreadful powerful bomb CAN be made. They would be like fools if they say otherwise. They may NOT want it to exist but the formula says it all.

I may not want Hell to exist but the "UNINTELLIGLE book" to many, but a very WISE book to those who can follow its "MAZE" says it does exist.

One can opt to burn those Einstein Formulas or burn the HOLY BOOK, but it won't disannul what is written in those documents.

How did the Book knew that it's possible to burn very large concrete metropolis in just ONE HOUR as if it knew beforehand the existence of Eintein's Formulas? How did it knew of the powerful countries it depicted like the U.S, China, Russia, etc when these countries or some of these countries never existed before?

The same book spoke of Hell. It may not sound "RATIONAL" as to why Hell exists just as it sounds irrational to think how a small mass or matter can obliterate whole cities, but it's there. IT'S THERE DESPITE THE "IRRATIONALITY".

CAN'T YOU HEAR ME?? IT'S THERE AND SOON MANY WILL EXPERIENCE IT'S TRUE WRATH JUST AS THE JAPANESE EXPERIENCE EINSTEIN'S FORMULA. Their ignorance did not save them from annihilation. Thinking that Hell don't exist won't save you either from it's wrath.

CAN'T YOU SEE IT ?? DESPITE HE'S BEING THE CREATOR OF THIS UNIVERSE, HE LET HIMSELF HANG ON THE CROSS JUST TO WARN THE PEOPLE OF THE COMING WRATH.

Read the book of Revelation as I did. Read it again and again as I did. It's like a crystal ball. By the grace of God , He'll show it to you what is the future of mankind.

Unless George Carlin repented before he died, he is DOOMED to Hell.

I don't want him to go to hell despite his unbelief, but that is simply the FACT of life.

A very sad fact of life.

"Seek and Ye shall Find". I seek and I found. If that verse is true to me, it can be true to all. For years, I seek. Get ready for a long search, if it comes to that.

anyone who takes the hell or heaven concept seriously is truly an idiot

Harold Lee Mathews said: "If God created man then could someone answer this query? Who created God? Could it be: God number two? And, did God number 3 create God number 2? Can anyone say: Eternal enumeration?"
*********************************************

Silly. No one did. Of necessity there has to be an uncreated creator, or Aristotle's unmoved mover, who always was and always will be. Who is entirely self-sufficient, absolutely unconstrained by time and space. A Being so far and away beyond our comprehension (other than to know that this "Supreme Being" exists) that we can't begin to imagine what this Being is like. Trying to understand such a One is like trying to pour the ocean into a little hole in the sand. (I stole that .) Reason can and does give us some idea of the Being's attributes, but in the end reason raises more questions than it answers.

So, enjoy the ride, and prepare to meet your Maker (or don't and risk the consequences--cf, Pascal). George has now done that, having proven that this Being must have a wicked sense of humor. Oddly, this Being made us with a free will, but no way for us to choose whether we would ultimately come face-to-face with such an unknowable Presence.

George has now met this unknowable Being, which perhaps proves that this Being must have a (New England style) wicked sense of humor.

MYRIP, George. Perhaps you knew all along that your role was to loosen things up a bit, and you used your unique talent to do it better than anyone else ever did.

what you believe is what happens...if you believe in nothing then your enegy get returned to the Universe and your individuality is wiped out, if you believe in heaven, purgatory and hell, most likely you will go to purgatory to pay for your sins before going to heaven or you will go straight to hell...if you believe in the thousands of chinese hells, well you know which one applies to you...

Ricardo: "anyone who takes the hell or heaven concept seriously is truly an idiot".

You don't have to die to be in hell or heaven.
You hear people say:

"I'm in heaven!"
"I'm in hell!"

Any idiot, even truly atheistic ones, will attest to this and take the 'concept' seriously to make their life be like heaven instead of like hell.

**************************************************

Harold Lee Mathews: " If God created man then could someone answer this query? Who created God? Could it be: God number two? And, did God number 3 create God number 2? Can anyone say: Eternal enumeration?"

Ah good! Neo modern theoretical-philosophical-theological-illogical math.

Believer: God created man.
Atheist : Man created God.

Therefore God created man who created God who created man who created God who created God who created man = Eternal enumeration = infinity

QED

If the Singularity created the universe, then could someone answer this query? Who created the Singularity? Could it be: Singularity number two? And, did Singularity number 3 create Singularity number 2? Can anyone say: Eternal enumeration?

Or, is it cosmic spaced out?
Or, cosmically spaced out?

Cheers

"J" the Religionista Guerilla
(blog hit and run)

Pam, I have found that those who believe in the infallibility and truthfulness of the Bible are generally those who haven't read it very closely. Reading the bible is what turned me away from christianity. An all-knowing super-being capable of revealing itself to writers & scribes wouldn't be so inconsistent, incoherent and just plain ridiculous.

Everyone has a lot to say about the veracity of the Bible, the fact that there is not a historical Jesus, (there couldn't be that name is a Latin name) the fact that there are inconsistencies in the Bible, and many other "proofs" that people should not believe in the G-d of Abram, Issac, and Jacob.
I, for one, choose to believe that there is a G-d, but that we cannot know with our finite minds the infinity of the Living G-d, and that we as finite creatures are incapable of "discerning the will of G-d, and the Bible is a living and breathing testimony of what can be done if and when people "love their fellow man and woman without reservation or exception!"
Should a person or people not do this, then I believe that they cannot claim to be "hearing from G-d, doing G-d's will and fulfilling G-d's plan on the earth." This statement is indicative of most if not all of the so-called, Christians, in Amerikkka, these days, as they do not love their fellow man unconditionally without reservation. Think of all the homeless and hungry in this nation and I will bet a penny to a dollar, that the people doing something about these atrocious conditions are secular in belief, or at most have an all-encompassing belief that G-d does not discriminate against anyone.
To me these are the people who are doing the work of carrying the Good News to all men without regard to their station in life. Should those of us who belong to a particular faith, with a particular reasoning, choose to do so, we can find in the Bible all sorts of factoids to prove that we are the only ones who will see heaven and that all the rest of the world is going to burn in Hell. What a load of B.S.!!!!!!!!
If G-d, is truly a loving and considerate G-d, then I, do not believe that one person will perish and that all will see the kingdom of Heaven, without regard to their station in Life.
Mr. Carlin, had it right, the reason for most of the organized religions in the world, is this, to condemn the "other," and to beg from their flocks as much money as they can get to support a lifestyle that is unavailable to those who give their money.

testing

Amy : "An all-knowing super-being capable of revealing itself to writers & scribes wouldn't be so inconsistent, incoherent and just plain ridiculous."

Thanks. That was a very concise history of man and God.

From A Self-Revealing All-Knowing, Do Everything God

to...........

An Invisible Know Nothing, Do Nothing God.

Writers and scribes? Well they are human, so are naturally inconsistent, incoherent and just plain ridiculous sometimes. Even current writers and scribes for or against God.

"J"

Ian said, "As someone who does not believe there is anything after we die it bugs me that all those who disagree with me will never know they are wrong!!!"

While this may be true, what should TRULY bother you is the fact that George and yourself will never know if you were right, but if you are wrong....oh boy will you know. As a believer,it occurs to me that it is a bigger comfort to realize that the only way I'll ever know the answer about the afterlife is if I am correct in my beliefs, while the only way the non-believers will know the answer about the afterlife is if they are wrong. It just seems like a perfectly strange sense of justice!!!!

It seems both from Carlin's life and the comments posted by most on this blog that the true religion most espouse is Mockery. There is a strange absence of compassion and respect on a page devoted to the validity or invalidity of relgion and the afterlife.

It seems both from Carlin's life and the comments posted by most on this blog that the true religion most espouse is Mockery. There is a strange absence of compassion and respect on a page devoted to the validity or invalidity of relgion and the afterlife.

interesting that two men raised as catholics die one after another; so was i, grade 1 thru 12 catholic schools...really liked russert but i LOVED carlin...i'm agnostic, near-athiest...religion is evil...i hope my frisbee lands right next to george's

Is this for real, in one of the nation's major newspapers?
News flash: Carlin's body returns to the Earth, just like dogs, cats, mice and every other animal that dies.
I guess this is just the beginning of the idiocy we can look forward to as newspapers grasp for readers. Sigh.

Jihadist writes: "If the Singularity created the universe, then could someone answer this query? Who created the Singularity? Could it be: Singularity number two? And, did Singularity number 3 create Singularity number 2? Can anyone say: Eternal enumeration?"

Why don't you try to answer Harold's question honestly?

Jonathan: " It seems both from Carlin's life and the comments posted by most on this blog that the true religion most espouse is Mockery. There is a strange absence of compassion and respect on a page devoted to the validity or invalidity of relgion and the afterlife."

This thread is sort of Irish wake for Mr. George Carlin, the master mocker of religion (among other things he spoke on), who questioned and made us think and laugh on life and death too in his comedies and satires as only Mr. George Carlin can and did.

And posters here are talking on the validity or invalidity of religion and the afterlife.

Cheers to Mr. George Carlin

"J"

TJ : Why don't you try to answer Harold's question honestly?

The very simple point being, we don't know who or what created God as much as scientists don't know what created or caused the Singularity that cause the Big Bang.

God the Infinite and Unknowable. The Universe the Infinite and Unknowable.

For now.

Cheers
"J"

I stand in the camp of skeptical and maybe even agnostic folks. What I'm most skeptical about is the ability of human thought to extend itself past human limitations.
Most "God talk" I hear tells me more about the person doing the talking and precious little about God. I think Carlin was on the right track in thinking that ideologies and institutions tend to stultification, bullying and on to horror in time.

It's nice to see something bold in the Post. It has turned so wimpy and subjective of late.

When i saw a couple of Carlin's sketches, i thought he was not just hilarious, he had guts to call a spade, a spade, especially when it comes to religion.

he was right.

who knows anything about God?

yet, few people whose hunger for power is worse than that of the politicians, claim to be an authority on something, they are as clueless as the rest of us.

It's nice to see something bold in the Post. It has turned so wimpy and subjective of late.

When i saw a couple of Carlin's sketches, i thought he was not just hilarious, he had guts to call a spade, a spade, especially when it comes to religion.

he was right.

who knows anything about God?

yet, few people whose hunger for power is worse than that of the politicians, claim to be an authority on something, they are as clueless as the rest of us.

It's nice to see something bold in the Post. It has turned so wimpy and subjective of late.

When i saw a couple of Carlin's sketches, i thought he was not just hilarious, he had guts to call a spade, a spade, especially when it comes to religion.

he was right.

who knows anything about God?

yet, few people whose hunger for power is worse than that of the politicians, claim to be an authority on something, they are as clueless as the rest of us.

It's nice to see something bold in the Post. It has turned so wimpy and subjective of late.

When i saw a couple of Carlin's sketches, i thought he was not just hilarious, he had guts to call a spade, a spade, especially when it comes to religion.

he was right.

who knows anything about God?

yet, few people whose hunger for power is worse than that of the politicians, claim to be an authority on something, they are as clueless as the rest of us.

As a great fan of Carlin's - I credit him with helping for my sense of humor as a teenager as I watched his specials on HBO, and then began seeing him in concert when he came to the area - I can only think that...

1) It's him rattling around on the roof of my building since Sunday night, keeping me awake; or, more likely...

2) He'd be happy knowing he's now worm food and nothing more.

Yeah, probably #2... because George called it like it is.

It's pretty hard for folks past 60 to have any appreciation for today's humor - or music, for that matter. Since Corporate America co-opted both venues along with the news media for their own profit and control, the quality that was fairly common in these entertainment venues has long disappeared. The products offered give new meaning to the term 'lightweight'. I don't think this is necessarily just age-related cloudy perception on the part of our feeble elders!

This is Big Business applying time-tested formulas for churning out music and movies that promise quick if passing success, and in the process exercising vast control over artistic creativity. I see this more in the music industry because I rarely go to movies - other than movie-by-video. It's all about the money.

As far as quality goes, whether you liked George Carlin or hated him, he had gravity - really the Lenny Bruce of his age. He conjured up a singular brew of biting, truth-telling, social satire that we will very likely never see again.

Say good-bye to the 'good old days' - the young ones will probably never know what they missed.

That was the first thing I wondered too when I heard Carlin passed away.

Of course Carlin wouldn't say he passed away to anywhere, but it's a thought that if he did, he must be regretting a lot of things he said rght about now.

Anyway, he WAS funny when he first started out, but like many a comedian who just can't resist the temptation to toss their political and religious beliefs into their so-called jokes, I lost interest in him a long time ago.

The only thing that amazes me is the barrage of overzealous bravado be given to this man as if his death was any great loss. Seems to me he made a small fortune at the expense of belief systems he didn't like. And people applaud this?

In the words of an old classic: "You are a Fluke of the Universe, you have no right to be here." This should be remembered in this age of entitlement that we find ourselves in now. As for Carlin, he pointed out some of the hipocrasies in modern society that needed to be shown. He will be sorely missed by some, if not most.

No one can say for sure what someone believes deep down in their heart. He appears to mock the God of the bible and uses objectionable language. He mocks Jesus and what He says in His word so it appears we can pretty much discern where he is right now. Now I believe in the God of the bible. I believe God came to earth in the form of a man. He died on the cross but in three days he arose from the dead as proof our sin debt was paid in full. That is what you trust to gain salvation. It has nothing to do with a religious system that tells you salvation in only possible by doing something. A belief in a Savior and a belief in a religious system are two different things.

Consider this from the perspective of logic: In considering the exclusivist claims of Jesus Christ to be God incarnate, the only means of access to God the Father and eternal life (claims that are recorded in both the Bible and the writings of non-Christian historians of the first century), it would be logical to at least recognize that only those who choose to reject those claims (for whatever reason) have in essence chosen to gamble with their eternity. (This is what makes Christianity so scandalous and offense.) How so? If it turns out that Jesus was not who he claimed to be, then George Carlin and others will have been vindicated and will experience one or none of the myriad of hypothetical destinies that people have proposed throughout history. But if Jesus' claims are true, then their eternal destiny will be exactly what he has said: separation from God in a very unpleasant place that was originally "prepared for Satan and his demons". Logically, if the faith of believers in Jesus Christ turns out to be misplaced, they will have lost nothing, since there was never anything to lose. However, they will have gained a life of the peace, happiness, security and significance that we all crave...even if it really was only the "opiate of the masses." One thing is certain: Mr. Carlin knows exactly where we should place our bet!

While George Carlin was certainly one of the funniest and most insightful comedians I have had the pleasure of seeing, we really owe him a debt of gratitude for his influence on those who have followed him. Seinfeld rightly credits G. C. as having had a tremendous influence on him. And this column reminded me of a very funny bit by Steve Martin. It went something like this:

"Did you ever wonder what would happen if you died and there really was a St. Peter? And you're standing at the pearly gates? Oh man, in college they said this was all bu******! What? You've been keeping tabs on me? I used the Lord's name in vain HOW MANY times? MILLION SIX? Jesus Chr..."

Thank you George Carlin for poking fun at even our most sacred of institutions. And thank you for showing your brethren the way. Your spirit will live on regardless of where you might end up!

And speaking of George Carlin and the afterlife, we see the usual religionist pap regarding heaven, hell, and eternal damnation - folks yammering on about stuff of which they have no knowledge whatsoever. Tale-spinning presented as truth. We are creatures of habit, are we not?

It reminds me of a Zen story: A disciple asked his master if there was life after death, and the master replied that he didn't know. The disciple exclaimed, 'but you're a Zen Master'!

The master replied, 'yes, but not a dead one'.

Getting back to Carlin...he was a VERY funny guy...now he's not. That's it!

"And speaking of George Carlin and the afterlife, we see the usual anti-religionist pap denouncing heaven, hell, and eternal damnation - folks yammering on about stuff of which they have no knowledge whatsoever. Tale-spinning presented as truth. We are creatures of habit, are we not?

It reminds me of a joke: What are the last words you'll hear an aethist utter? Help me, God!"

Fixed that for ya.

I caught a re-airing of the interview he did with Terri Gros on NPR's "Fresh Air" Monday afternoon on my way to the supermarket. Good thing I had my mp3 player with me; otherwise, I would have sat in the car running the battery down to hear the rest of it, and my husband would have been wondering why it took me so long to buy a carton of milk and a bag of cat food.

I would like to point out that while I take calm comfort with my relationship with GOD, most of the posters I see on blogs take PRIDE in their belief...surely a sin!

It is one thing to make testament to your beliefs to another without a booming, righteous, overzealous voice. As they say, Pride cometh before the fall.

Perhaps George Carlin's routine did become more angry as he aged. Hypocrisy is everywhere, institutions are in lock-step, Humans have generally turned inward. Nothing he witnessed and spoke of has changed. Truely that is a reason one could become angry...

As far as christianity is concerned,in all its forms, denominations, cults and sects, Mr. Carlin was absolutely right!

I just read the first comment which was, "As far as christianity is concerned,in all its forms, denominations, cults and sects, Mr. Carlin was absolutely right!"

Really? And you know this for a fact how? Oh wait! That's right. You never offered proof. Neither did George for that matter.

Don't have to read anymore. I'm sure it's just more of the same.

Mr. Mark:
I admit freely that I erred in comparing the historical data for Jesus to George Washington, because it allowed you to focus on a proof that George Washington existed rather than to answer the more substantive questions in my post. But I will point out that there are similar available data that point to the existence of Jesus that you discard as unreliable: The multitude of Christian writings of the time (Canonical and non-canonical). Josephus' account, the shroud of Turin.

The fact is, you are a skeptic and all your analysis is colored by that in the same way that my analysis is colored by my belief. It is unlikely that either of us will change the others minds. It is up to the other individuals reading these posts to decide who is more reasonable.

Where do religion satirists and adherents of Frisbeetarianism go when they die?

Answer: To the same place everyone else goes, into the lasting memory of those who liked or loved them, or into the erasure trash bin of those who did not. Carlin's after-life may be more real than his actual life, in that sense. Since his decease, multiple videos of his work have circulated that many, owing to censorship, probably never saw. The contrast between his posthumus celebrity and his mortal fame may not be as dramatic as, say, a Van Gogh, but it may be no surprise that more people know of Carlin 20 years from now than when he was in the flesh: no longer earthly, but as earthy as ever.

Reasonable bnh: “The gospels [are] what many or most people would say is very intelligent observations about mankind. How anyone could simply make this stuff up is beyond me.”
People have always “made up” intelligent observations about mankind. Think philosophy, psychology, sociology, anthropology. People have also always “made up” intelligent observations about the world around us, Think science, geometry, engineering, astronomy. People have always been creative – think music, art, literature, poetry. All of this, like the gospel stories, comes from the minds of humans. And all of it existed long before the gospel stories were ever written.

FH: “Clearly, no minds are going to be changed here.”

On I don’t know, it might get some people to thinking. It certainly would have affected me a couple of years ago if I could have heard people talking like this on an internet forum. Besides, it’s a good discussion to have – if only to see how different people think and how they form, maintain and change their beliefs.

Arminius: “We have a lot of indirect proof [of Jesus]. I am not a deep enough student of history to elaborate on this - I wish to hell I were.”

You once said you were going to pursue more of the history of Jesus. It would be easy enough to do these days. Plus, I’d like to know what you consider “indirect proof” of Jesus and see examples of your opinion of “indirect proof" of other historical characters.

Personally, Arminius, my opinion is that you really don’t want to know. You’re satisfied with your personal Christianity and sense of God within you.

Dear Old school Journalist – don’t worry, this is a “Blog” – on the internet only – not delivered to your doorstep in print like in the old days and not considered “news”. Journalism is indeed changing in ways you obviously don’t yet understand.

Jack:

"It reminds me of a joke: What are the last words you'll hear an aethist utter? Help me, God!"

Oh yea Jack? I was at the bedside of my uncle, an atheist, when he died. His las words were, "take the pillow out" (from under his head). You simply do not understand what an atheist is!

May he burn in the fires of Hades for all eternity.

Jack - thanks for making my point. Speaking but knowing nothing - the religionist stock in trade.

BTW, there's nothing to fix when nothing is broken.

After all, you're the one that claims to know something. And how do you know what you think you know? Where's the evidence? Got proof?

I did agree with his racist rants and his homosexual views but to say there is no God is just terrible. You just wait till the good Lord passes judgment on you Mr. Carlin.

"And so sayeth John undo Peter that ye may beget the righteous sword of youth" Edward 9:17

The practitioner of frisbeetarianism goes the same "place" everyone else does when he dies. Why would he be any different?

I won't miss Carlin. He was not funny just arrogant and stupid. Why is it funny when someone tells you your kids are ugly, rape can be good, and he pretends to be a comedian by throwing the "F" bomb around because he is too lazy to try to be creative or he's just plain not creative. He did not make me laugh and he never said anything that gave me insight into the world around me. The guy stunk up the place. The smell of him is everywhere these last few days and it will be a relief when he is put in his grave and all this crap about how funny he was subsides and we all forget the man ever lived. The fact that he called himself a comedian and people paid to see him is what is really B.S.

They go to the same places as do the religous when they die: Into the ground where their carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen get recycled.

They go to the same places as do the religous when they die: Into the ground where their carbon, hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen get recycled.

Perspective, all you're doing is showing everyone how pissed off can get when you see how some of your comments are viewed by others.

You need to realize that your opinion is yours. You have no right to force it on anyone else.

Keep your views but get off the slandering of others when they don't agree.

Some of you really need to read the article once, say whatever you want and move on. Staying here to try to change people isn't going to happen. You're wasting your time.

As for George Carlin, I personally think Tim Russert's passing was a much bigger loss to society.

Mrs. Elizabeth Hunter - how very un-Christian of you! Imagine hoping that someone will burn in the fires of Hades for all eternity. To be honest, I'm not sure you're qualified for heaven just yet with that attitude. I think an attitude adjustment is in order, don't you? A wee bit more loving and compassionate will do nicely....

And you're going to give Christians a very bad name if you're not careful - revealing your deepest hopes and desires like that!

Sarah - who's pissed off? That's called projection.

Arminius,

Please let me respond in kind.

First, as a believer, I would have expected less judgment from you. Discernment would certainly have been acceptable, but it is obvious from your post, that you are looking to rebuke instead of rescue. Sad, really. Can I assume that you have given up all your earthly possessions and embarked on a mission to save Christ's people?

Second, your incoherent rant on the tax rate and our current President was completely off point. I was simply asking Mr. Mark why he believes that a knee jerk reaction to tax the H*ll out of the wealthy is warranted. My question was based on the release of both McCain & Obama's tax policy if elected. Mr. Mark's comments, on the other hand, were succint, on point, and instructive in nature. Perhaps you could consider it a teaching point in debate.

God only knows where your "robber baron" comment comes from. I don't recall Jesus instructing anyone to steal from the rich to give to the poor. Perhaps you could point me in the right direction?

I don't think his rape comments, anti-God sentiments or any of the other laughs he got over saying 7 dirty words were the least bit funny. It reminds of kids who giggled when the word "butt" was used.

This country could do with a little more seriousness, respect for others and knowing when to just shut up when you don't have anything nice to say.

Says JKOCH: "Where do religion satirists and adherents of Frisbeetarianism go when they die?

Answer: To the same place everyone else goes, into the lasting memory of those who liked or loved them, or into the erasure trash bin of those who did not."

I appreciated a lot of Carlin's humor--his genius is nearly undeniable, whether you loved his stuff or despised it. I doubt Carlin lives in me though; he himself had a word for that.

For us Christians, think of his chances this way--he was never lukewarm; perhaps the most shrill are also the most susceptible to conversion when, in one's dying moments, one is given a clear choice of continuing to insist on one's own bullsh*t thinking or taking a leap of faith. Ahem.

He has gone where we all are going NO_WHERE!!!

Hey DBCJR, can you say "false dichotomy?" You are stacking the deck to try to make a point, but you're actually shooting yourself in the foot. Pascal has it all wrong in "Pascal's Wager."

The choices are really:

a) George is somewhere/somewhen/somehow

b) nothing (no afterlife of any kind)

c) any of all possible religious alternatives (All Christian sect, Muslim sects, etc, ad nauseum)

d) none of all possible religious alternatives (all religions are man-made and wrong).

Only a True Beleiver in a particular sect believes that answer c has to be THEIR particular religious preference.

Paul C: NDE's prove nothing except that the brain hallucinates when it is deprived of oxygen. An NDE is purely subjective. What would you say if someone came back from an NDE and said he saw pink Volkswagens, the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man or something equally nonsensical?

"One man's theology is another man's belly laugh."

Sooner or later, we all find out the truth - even if it's that there is nothing there. Religion is all about social control and fear. If people used more critical thinking, asked questions and rejected recieved authority, the world would be a much better place.

I'm not pissed off at all, Perspective. I just read your outbursts and noticed you're banging your keyboard to get your views known. Seriously, no one cares! You're not going to change anyone's mind, least of all on a blog.

Telling Christians how to act only tells me that you don't understand Christianity. Christ didn't come for perfect people. He came for imperfect people. So telling Christians they have to be perfect is rather ignorant of you. It also demonstrates that you educate yourself long enough to where you think you'll be able to use it as ammunition and that's not being a very nice person at all. So no matter what you believe, I would at least think that mattered to you but apparently not.

Don't reply, I'm not staying. I've had my coffee and now I'm going to work. Maybe you should too!

George Carlin always reminded me of how low Americans could go waving the free speech banner.

I never thought he was funny. Rather he was --obnoxious. Yeah, that's a better word.

I can't imagine a less productive use of time than to ponder about the state of George Carlin's soul.

I liked the man and don't want to think of him burning in hell. Other than that, I just don't care.

Have you ever watched two dogs or cats express wonder at what's going to happen to their soul or one of their siblings souls after death? Wonder and questioning our human activities.

Its reasonable to say that if there is life after death that "birds of a feather flock together". George will go wherever others with similar moral choices, values, and generosity of heart go. Since I don't George I can't say - but I can say that his choices are limited: heaven, hell, or purgatory (and then eventually heaven).

If George is in purgatory he would be delighted to have your prayers, if he's in heaven he won't need them and if he's in hell he won't want them.
Since very few people go straight to heaven - lets say a prayer for George:

Our Father who art in heaven Holy be thy name thy kingdom come they will be done on earth as it is in heaven give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us and lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. Amen.

I see Mr. Mark is on his "A Historical Jesus Never Existed" soapbox again. Don't know why you still grip ever so tightly to that one sir but I do enjoy the conversation when you do.

And what's up with the Washington analogy Paul C.? Next time, simply challenge an anti-theist to apply the same critical analysis to each and every individual historical figure who lived more than say... 1,500 ago and see if we have enough evidence to prove without a doubt that every single one of those individuals existed.

Why did I say "every individual" instead of "any individual"? Simple, that is the ruse. It is selective criticism. Jesus this, Jesus that...

Personally, I'm a believer but I respect anyone's choice not to believe and wish them well. If one cannot bear to accept the historical fact that a man named Jesus (messiah or not) walked the earth about 2,000 years ago, I wish them well too... but chuckle a little.

regards

Unless George Carlin repented before he died, he is DOOMED to Hell.

I don't want him to go to hell despite his unbelief, but that is simply the FACT of life.

Eintein's work on his Theory of Special Relativity was just a list of mathematical formulas and based on those formulas, one can deduce that a powerful bomb CAN be made. No such bomb yet existed before he made those formulas but it served as THE CRYSTAL BALL of things to happen.

Based on those formulas, THOSE WHO UNDERSTOOD IT CAN SEE THE FUTURE. The future is that a very powerful bomb will soon exist. And as we all know now, the Atomic Bomb now exist.

The same can be said of the Bible. A big part of the Bible are told in FIGURES OF SPEECH -- metaphors, parables and personifications. Much of these figures of speech are never understood by lots of people including FALSE RELIGIONS like Catholicism, liberal Protestantism, Judaism, etc.

Those who understood Einstein's Formula CANNOT DENY that a very dreadful powerful bomb CAN be made. They would be like fools if they say otherwise. They may NOT want it to exist but the formula says it all.

I may not want Hell to exist but the "UNINTELLIGLE book" to many, and at the same a very WISE book to those who can follow its "MAZE" says it does exist.

One can opt to burn those Einstein Formulas or burn the HOLY BOOK, but it won't disannul what is written in those documents.

How did the Book knew that it's possible to burn very large concrete metropolis in just ONE HOUR as if it knew beforehand the existence of Eintein's Formulas? How did it knew of the powerful countries it depicted like the U.S, China, Russia, etc when these countries or some of these countries never existed before?

The same book spoke of Hell. It may not sound "RATIONAL" as to why Hell exists just as it sounds irrational to think how a small mass or matter can obliterate whole cities, but it's there. IT'S THERE DESPITE THE "IRRATIONALITY".

CAN'T YOU HEAR ME?? IT'S THERE AND SOON MANY WILL EXPERIENCE IT'S TRUE WRATH JUST AS THE JAPANESE EXPERIENCED EINSTEIN'S FORMULA. Their ignorance did not save them from annihilation. Thinking that Hell don't exist won't save you either from it's wrath.

CAN'T YOU SEE IT ?? DESPITE HE'S BEING THE CREATOR OF THIS UNIVERSE, HE LET HIMSELF HANG ON THE CROSS JUST TO WARN THE PEOPLE OF THE COMING WRATH.

Read the book of Revelation as I did. Read it again and again as I did. It's like a crystal ball. By the grace of God , He'll show it to you what is the future of mankind.

Unless George Carlin repented before he died, he is DOOMED to Hell.

I don't want him to go to hell despite his unbelief, but that is simply the FACT of life.

A very sad fact of life.

"Seek and Ye shall Find". I sought and I found. If that verse is true to me, it can be true to all. For years, I seek. Get ready for a long search, if it comes to that. FAILURE IS NOT AN OPTION.

Mr. Mark,

Thank you for your response.

I would argue, and this is only from my own personal experiences, that inherited wealth isn't inherently bad. Sure, I bet there is a lot of people out there who have achieved wealth on the backs of current or former family members. But if I look at myself or those around me, that simply isn't the case. Each generation accumulated more wealth than the prior, and those funds were passed down. For example, my kids enjoy a family beach house that wouldn't have been possible without the hard work and accumulated wealth of my parents and grandparents. But that shouldn't be a strike against them, should it?

As a corporate tax attorney, I would argue that the "unfair advantages" you discuss in the code aren't "given" to anyone. They are simply enjoyed, fairly or unfairly, by those who can understand them. My biggest corporate client pays almost $1.5 billion in U.S. federal taxes each year. So while in rare cases, the Warren Buffet's of the world pay relatively smaller taxes, the counter argument holds true as well.

Maybe, George Never met someone on earth that could tell Him the Truth that He longed to find?

And Maybe he did?

Thank God, He allows only those that know Him decide.

John 20 21:23

This dude admittedly snorted more cocaine, dropped more acid and smoked enough marijuana than most kids in my entire High School, yet a few comments are sucking up his distorted comedy routine as something to be admired now.

I think some of you need to lay off the drugs. The dude was trying to be funny. A bad style of funny most of the time, but hey, that's the only thing that could pay the bills.

But to worship him is nuts. Then again, so was George. Total nutjob from all the drugs he took.

They go where all good, moral Republicans go that are the backbone of religion. This guy would breath, eat and sleep republican values using every foul word in the english language. This is why I will never support or go to a church that engages in politics and cast any church or religion as liars to the faith. I am sorry for his death but not for a man that represented so much hatred. He will have more swear word than hell and will do fine there.

Luke: "This dude admittedly snorted more cocaine, dropped more acid and smoked enough marijuana than most kids in my entire High School, yet a few comments are sucking up his distorted comedy routine as something to be admired now."

Yes, time of a life is short; so much to do. You left off the list to screw as many women as you can before you can't.

Nah, I'm married now. I love my wife. I have no desire to bang anything that walks to fill my ego anymore.

That's not what life is about. That was kid-think. Time to grow up.

FH wrote: "I don't think naturalism or creationism are going to be proved in our lifetime, so I'm going to go with the one that provides me comfort and hope."

Well, naturalism has been proved many times and in many ways. And the results have been backed up yet again with recent DNA mappings of other species. The amount of evidence for naturalism is volumous and the inconsistencies are few. You cannot say that about creationism and you cannot find creationist papers offering anything in the way of proofs FOR creationism, which indicates it is not science.

As for "go with the one that provides me comfort and hope", sorry to be so blunt, but believing in whatever is most comforting ignores reality, and ignoring reality is by definition delusion.

FH wrote: "That seems a reasonable and rational position...I honestly don't see how your view is any more likely."

Read up on naturalism, get some facts, learn something instead of seeking out ignorance and comfort.

FH wrote: "And before you try and dazzle me with your brilliance...I've read Stenger and Dawkins, and they probably covered all your retorts."

I would point you to more academic texts. Dawkins et. al. use science in their arguments, but if you do not know science and its results you can easily dismiss them. I'm saying to get out there and learn what thousands of scientists have uncovered, tested, compared with other finding and found to be true or have a high degree of likelyhood. After you have learned how the real world works, from geology to chemistry to biology to physics, you might begin to understand what Dawkins and Carlin are saying.

Here's one small thing for you to read up on and consider: The "Burgess Shale" is in British Columbia and is a mountainous region 8000 feet high. But its a shale that originally formed at the bottom of a shallow sea and contains some of the first multicellular organisms (sea creatures) to have formed on the earth. All are now extinct. Not one fossil of an existing creature can be found. In other words, of the literally millions of fossils found so far in the shale, none are of species around today. Do you think it is a coincidence that not one crab or lobster, flounder or other sea dwelling creature currently around would be fossilized? Just those that went extinct? Scientists understand this reality. And how did a sea floor end up in the mountains at 8000 feet? Geologists know and how it happened was made abundantly clear last month in Sichuan provence in China. But many believers do not want to know, prefering the comfort of delusion.

Next time you are sick and need a doctor, consider whether you want a doctor who understands the realities of your illness, or one who believes in whatever is of comfort and hope.

Brambleton:

Wow, that 1.5 Billion in taxes figure is remarkable. Do you think that your client is unfamiliar with the tax work arounds, or is simply in a position where those benefits do not apply.

I think educating oneself in financial matters is of utmost importance.

I really don't matter what the rest of us think about what George Carlin thinks about religion. He's on his way to discovering the truth while we are still struggling to learn the truth. Those of you that "think" you already know the truth,.... I'll pray for you. I would rather live a life of believing and find that I was wrong after I die ...... than live a life of not believing and find that I was wrong after I died.

It really doesn't matter what the rest of us think about what George Carlin thinks about religion. He's on his way to discovering the truth while we are still struggling to learn the truth. Those of you that "think" you already know the truth,.... I'll pray for you. I would rather live a life of believing and find that I was wrong after I die ...... than live a life of not believing and find that I was wrong after I died.

Seems to me that he's exactly where he thought he'd be at this point: dead and gone forever. No heaven, no hell, no anything.

The irony is that the point is lost on so many who continue to believe the fairytales pounded into their brains during childhood.

George Carlin would be horrified to know he was being discussed in such a ridiculous forum. But he won't know, because he's dead. Not burning in hell or sitting on a cloud, he just isn't here anymore.

For an example of the complete absurdity of religion, please see spiderman2's comments. I honestly hope those are the remarks of a 12-year old.

Now Joe Pesci's a guy who knows how to get things done.

George Carlin would be horrified to know he was being discussed in such a ridiculous forum. But he won't know, because he's dead. Not burning in hell or sitting on a cloud, he just isn't here anymore.

For an example of the complete absurdity of religion, please see spiderman2's comments. I honestly hope those are the remarks of a 12-year old.

Now Joe Pesci's a guy who knows how to get things done.

Paul C: “But I will point out that there are similar available data that point to the existence of Jesus that you discard as unreliable: The multitude of Christian writings of the time (Canonical and non-canonical). Josephus' account, the shroud of Turin.”

What about non-“Christian” writings,” Paul? Anything substantive there – even including Josephus, which is considered highly suspect among theologians. Of course you know that the shroud of Turin is highly questioned – no proof at all that it’s from the first century, lots of indication that it’s from medieval Europe. Even if it were first century, no way to prove that it’s Jesus and not some other crucified person. Had you thought of that?

I wonder – are you truly as naïve as you seem to be about Christian history, or are you using this forum as an attempt to spread more Christian propaganda? Maybe it’s both.

Then you say: “The fact is, you [Mr Mark] are a skeptic and all your analysis is colored by that in the same way that my analysis is colored by my belief.”

Not really – all information isn’t equal – analysis based on information supported by facts and evidence is better than analysis based on beliefs. Example – the “believer” says God caused a tornado in a small town to punish sinners there. The “skeptic” says it was caused by particular meteorological patterns which can be scientifically tracked by academically trained meteorologists.

I do think you’re right about one thing: people reading these posts can easily see who’s being more reasonable.

George Carlin wasn't funny. We are and he had the good sense to notice.

He was anti-religious and we had the courtesy to provide him with endless fodder. What could possibly be more hilarious than a dwindling cabal of elderly white men, dressed in medieval satins, ignoring when their own sexually prey on children, commanding attendance at ever emptying churches, terrified that their black brethen will replace them, who cling to a leader who demands we accept his infallibity? Popes, ayatollahs, all the same. If any of these loons are so smart, let them pick the Powerball number.

And let's not forget the evangelical notion that although we may sin rapaciously from Monday through Saturday, on Sunday we can leap back into the river and be once more saved because of a 2000-year-old execution. Maybe Jesus died for somebody's sins, but I bet he expected them to try to stop. Redemption is not a reset button.

Read George and you find a deeply spiritual person; maybe, he was not your kind of spiritual, which will not likely bother him much. Of course, we devolve to our atoms but I'm hooking up with George and Jesus for supper. They're having pork chops.

Blee wrote: "I would rather live a life of believing and find that I was wrong after I die ...... than live a life of not believing and find that I was wrong after I died."

This is Pascal's wager, a tool of fear. As noted earlier in this blog religions use carrots and sticks to demand and maintain belief. The carrot of course is a gold plated afterlife, something to comfort you as you contemplate death and its aftermath.

But I find believing based on fear just what would send one to hell, based on the bible I've read. I mean, is believing out of fear what a true God would want? Would believing "just in case" get one into heaven? Are the men who ran the mafias in heaven because they believed and received last rights? If so I think I'd rather be on a roof with Carlin, telling jokes and laughing for eternity while you get to sit on a cloud with believers of the worst sort.

Perspective,

You should not have cheated on your spouse.

Biblical prophecies of cities burning in just ONE HOUR used to be a "fairy tale". It's just impossible to happen. With the advent of nukes, the "fairy tale" is now a REALITY. And right now, nobody wants to give up their nukes. They would rather use it than give it away. If you're a mathematician, you can solve the probability of the so called "fairy tale" to happen.

It's VERY PROBABLE. Not a fairy tale anymore.

George Carlin is now a dead biological tissue just like everybody else. There is no god, no afterlife no nothing that the merchants of these neandrathal religions like to portray.

Get over it you religious twits

It's pretty simple, Fate:

If you believe in a just God, you believe that there are consequences to bad actions that were never restituted. Some are believed to be spent in this life. Some are believed to be spent in the hereafter.

If that makes you afraid of Hell, that's common sense. Who wouldn't be afraid of knowing they're going to a bad place for being a bad person?

The concept of God is not hard to understand considering the comlexities of the universe and how that doesn't jive with a big bang theory.

The concept of justice is also not hard to fathom, either. You can fathom it from government, your parents and society in general, but you laughably dismiss justice as a concept past your own reality.

The older I get, the more I understand the goal this mindset is trying to get across. It's that when men decide there is no God, they then make themselves the Superior Being of all.

I'm just waiting on man to create a universe. Now that'll be impressive. In the meantime, I'm sure man will just dismiss the universe as happenstance because he's incapable of delivering.

Apparently Sarah has not done much blogging on this website, otherwise she'd know that the last thing anyone expects, is to change opinions or beliefs - what we're actually doing is amusing ourselves, and exercising a form of free expression. If you post here, you may draw the attention, and even the ire, of others. You may even learn something new.

Believers of all stripes can expect non-believers to not only disagree, but to occasionally do so vocally and in explicit terms. Perhaps as a Christian, Sarah can relate better to the posts of Spiderman2, but I'm not so sure he's the best representative of sanity that Christianity has to offer on these threads. Anyway, non-believers who engage believers expect broadsides from folks such as Sarah and Jack and Spiderman2, and much worse!

Anything is possible on these threads - Sarah may even have gone back to work, but how would I know? At least we both like coffee.

And actually Sarah, I do know Christianty quite well...but here's the thing - religionists speak their beliefs as though they were talking of established facts, when nothing could be further from the truth. Those of us that are sticklers for the truth, feel compelled to respond to mythology spoken as truth. You see, there is a difference. Even a believer should be able to see the difference, don't you think?

And by the way, you're irritation is pretty transparent. As for me, I'm trying hard not to pound my keyboard.

regards -

Mrs. Johnson:
"May he burn in the fires of Hades for all eternity."

Ah, we finally hear from the Greek Mythology contingent - Excellent! Now THERE'S a religion I can get behind.

All hail Athena!

He was a bitter, angry man who is probably living in a Hell somewhere. I don't think dying bitter and angry is good for your afterlife.

STICK:

I don't think that being a judgmental **** is all that helpful either.

Of course, I could be wrong.

He's in hell. Sad but true.

I agree George was very angry in his stints, too. I also agree he did way too many drugs to be taken seriously. I think it's funny how the Atheists are coming out to carry a torch of some sort in the name of Carlin now. To me, it just makes them look silly. The guy was a jerk to any religion. He had no respect for belivers of any God. If I were Atheist, I wouldn't be picking out Carlin blogs to use as my case in point, that's for sure.

dmm1:

That's probably not your decision to make.

Again, I could be wrong here.

All these posts from the superstitious cretinous crowd about Carlin being in "hell" have at least one good side: despite cutbacks in the book review section, there's still plenty of room in American media for fiction.

Ghost,

It is what it is. Are there different ways "they" could be doing things to reduce tax expense? Probably. But not enough to make a significant impact.

Contrary to popular belief, corporations do pay taxes and they don't have some magic wand to get rid of them.

Perspective wrote "And actually Sarah, I do know Christianty quite well".

Quite a lot of atheists claim that. That's is what I call FAIRY TALE. These guys are dreaming.

If you don't believe me, prove me wrong. Interpret this for me please :

"And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born."

Just to make it simple, WHAT STARS WAS IT TALKING ABOUT? WHAT IS IT REFERRING TO?

Dream on.

Why don't y'all just believe what you want and quit being gutter-slugs of the internet. Y'all act like this guy dying is your chance to spew your propaganda and hate against everyone who doesn't agree with you.

That said, Carlin was good before he started the same propaganda seen here. Then it became more like, "Good riddance, George!"

Same goes for the rest of you trying to follow in his footsteps. The guy was a rude bastard and there's nothing to praise.

"George Carlin would be horrified to know he was being discussed in such a ridiculous forum. But he won't know, because he's dead. Not burning in hell or sitting on a cloud, he just isn't here anymore."

Nah he'd find it all very amusing, especially the crap about him going to hell. Or maybe he'd be proud of the way he helped to change the dialogue about religion in public places. In the 1970s the only way you could criticize religion was in comedy or perhaps science fiction. Now we can openly point out its flaws and absurdities and find that we're not alone in those observations. If he hadn't talked about Sister Mary Discipline with the steel ruler, could we talk so openly about the fiction of a historical Jesus or the barbarism of cannibalistic riturals?

Has anyone here ever been severely abused both mentally and physically? I have. And thanks to such a rigorous daily routine of beatings and mental torture over a span of over 30 years, I have learned to think for myself. Jesus never had it as good as yours truly.

So to all you spoiled, rich Washingtonians - Go out and get a good beating.

Is it me, or are the atheist zealots starting to sound about as nuts as the religious zealots?

Judging others - now there's something we can all get behind!

(Of course, I could be wrong.)

George Carlin may have made comedy runs that said he was Atheist but anyone who has seen his interviews knows that he often used references to "nature". He thanked "nature" as if it were intellectual. A true Atheist doesn't believe in any higher authority other than himself. Nothing exists to him that is higher intelligence.

I don't think he ever gave up on his roots. It was ingrained in him and though he tried hard to shed it, it bugged him way too much to believe he didn't really believe in God. I think he did. He tried hard to deny it. The anger was clearly there. But the drugs, the lashing out and everything else that was rebellious George pointed to his struggle with his upbringing. He was definitely unable to come to terms with that. He often said he never changed from what he thought and felt from age 14-15. That's pretty immature.

I hope he did get right with it in the end.

If He didn't believe in God he's believing in him now.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5186211187154170413

FiendofBill:

Have you and your "partner" gotten hitched yet?

Mrs. Johnson:

I think you're confusing me with 'FRIENDODOROTHY'.

'FRIENDOBILL' is something different.

However, having said that, I am a 'FRIENDOFEINDSODOROTHY'.

For those unfamiliar with it:

George Carlin invented the parody religion Frisbeetarianism for a newspaper contest. He defined it as the belief that when a person dies "his soul gets flung onto a roof, and just stays there", and cannot be retrieved.

Brilliant!

Arminius -

I apply the same standard of proof to the question of Jesus' existence as I would anyone else.

It can be easily proved that Julius Caesar existed because the Romans kept good records. The Egyptians also kept excellent records, so we know that certain personalities from their time existed as well.

The major reasons that I don't believe Jesus existed are a combination of the following:

The Gospel of Mark was the first story of Jesus that was written, all others are dependent on it, and Gospel of Mark shows clear signs of being written as an allegorical fiction

Virtually every detail of the life of Jesus comes from "Old Testament" scriptures

Some of the details of the life of Jesus are based on mistranslations of the Hebrew scriptures

Jesus' crucifixion on Passover defies historical believability, yet makes perfect sense metaphorically

The Gospels make many claims that are contradicted by the historical record

The earliest writings about Jesus, from Paul and others, contain no details of his life

Many statements in the letters of Paul only make sense if Paul does not view Jesus Christ as a historical person

There is not one single writing from or about Jesus during his supposed lifetime

Philo, a prolific Jewish writer who lived from 20 BCE to 50 CE, wrote extensively about the political and theological movements throughout the Mediterranean, and his views foreshadowed Christian theology, yet he never once wrote anything about Jesus. Not only this, but he actually wrote about political conflicts between the Jews and Pontius Pilate in Judea

All of the non-Christian references to Jesus can be shown to have either been introduced later by Christian scribes or were originally based on Christian claims

There is no evidence of any knowledge of a tomb of Jesus (empty or occupied) prior to the Gospel stories

There were many conflicting beliefs about who Jesus Christ was in the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd centuries, including beliefs that he had never existed on earth "in the flesh"

The lifestory of Jesus is an amalgam of details culled from the lives of pagan gods

There's more, of course, but taken together, the evidence and lack of evidence argues strongly against his existence.

Tom wrote: "If you believe in a just God, you believe that there are consequences to bad actions that were never restituted. Some are believed to be spent in this life. Some are believed to be spent in the hereafter."

What, no consensus? You'd think God would make this pretty clear, but it seems man is arguing over it, even within christianity.

Tom wrote: "If that makes you afraid of Hell, that's common sense. Who wouldn't be afraid of knowing they're going to a bad place for being a bad person?"

I know of no one who ends up in a good place, on earth, for being a bad person. I abide by the golden rule and a few others, like "what goes around comes around". Being a good person is its own reward, I don't need a God to scare me into being a good person. Actually I don't believe its possible to make a bad person good though fear.

Tom wrote: "The concept of God is not hard to understand considering the comlexities of the universe and how that doesn't jive with a big bang theory."

The big bang theory has made predictions that have been shown through experiments and observations to be true. What you should consider is that the bible does not mention the existance of the universe. Its writers believed the universe was the earth surrounded by a series of shells where the sun, moon, planets and stars resided, with heaven outside that. Today we know that version of the universe is false, yet that seems to be ok with those who "believe in the bible".

Tom wrote: "The concept of justice is also not hard to fathom, either. You can fathom it from government, your parents and society in general, but you laughably dismiss justice as a concept past your own reality."

Oh no, justice is a reality which does not require believe in a God. We have courts don't we? Our laws are designed to administer justice. And laws and justice exist in most lands, christian and not. Justice is not derived from religion, it comes from being human.

Tom wrote: "The older I get, the more I understand the goal this mindset is trying to get across. It's that when men decide there is no God, they then make themselves the Superior Being of all."

Please name those who you feel this has happened to and I will name two who were believers who did the same. I know of no atheists who feel superior to others. In fact, being an atheist is humbling. You understand that we are all animals, relatively equal, with frailties and faults. My favorite saying is that "people are stupid", which includes myself. We all do stupid things now and then, its just human, so to get upset when someone runs a red light or stop sign is no reason to get mad at them. How many christians would feel the same?

Tom wrote: "I'm just waiting on man to create a universe. Now that'll be impressive. In the meantime, I'm sure man will just dismiss the universe as happenstance because he's incapable of delivering."

Actually man knows quite a bit about the universe and what happened even the first millseconds after it formed. Current observations are leading cosmologists to consider a previous universe, one that existed before ours. Its all based on observations and facts with lots of math and theories which make predictions. Not on faith. What I find most interesting is that when scientists prove something like a starting point of the universe, they praise the science has backing up the biblical story of creation, yet when presented with equally compelling science that goes against the biblical stories, like evolution, the science is trounced as false, and worse, as a conspiracy against the religion. That makes no sense and is yet another example of the delusion that religion requires of believers.

As a Roman Catholic, George had been and still is among the baptized. For those who don’t believe in the
God who, in Jesus, died and lives even for the ungodly, George’s baptism is a non-item. For those of us
who do believe in this particular God, we trust that God will take care of His own according to His own
inscrutable justice and mercy. Mr. Carlin was a funny man who said a lot of things, many with the zing of truth.
He was also terribly wrong about a great many other things. I do, however, think he got it right about baseball
and “buddy christ” (the latter may have been more Kevin Smith; but I’m sure G.C. approved).

Pastor Greg Harbaugh

Spiderman2 - Wow, you're into astrology too? Or is that just something outlandishly mythical from Revelations - more doom and gloom?

Actually, it sounds like a reference to Betelgeuse, a red giant (star) in the Orion constellation (a mere 427 light years away).

You'll find Sirius, another red giant and also known as 'the dog star' in various mythologies as well - actually Sirius has an invisible twin and is thought to be circling a huge black hole - it seems confirmed now that each galaxy likely has a giant black hole at it's epicenter - very cool.

And remember, if there's life on this planet, there's almost certain to be much life elsewhere in the universe - and who can say how many advanced civilizations far beyond our own? To calculate the possibilites, google the Drake Equation - you can even put in your own numbers.

Now tell me again - why is God so concerned with one tiny little planet? Or have all those hypothetical advanced civilizations scattered throughout over 100 billion galaxies also got religion?

The Betelgeuse/Sirius post was mine - I have to own up.

Fate, you got it all wrong. God doesn't put people in Hell. Hell is a place void of God. People put themselves there, by choice. The fear is your own. Don't put the blame you feel for your own actions on God and say it's His fault you fear.

You fear things you don't understand. And you sound very afraid even now. People who have died and returned from the dead, clinically dead!, aren't afraid to die ever again. They've been there. Yes, even the Atheists now know. Go read what they have to say before you demand what the truth really is.

You might want to think about what it is and why it is, you're trying so desperately to convince others of a Godless world. If there's nothing to believe in, you have absolutely no reason to be concerned about what they believe.

Your explanations give no explanation to the signs made to this world. Go look up "Incorruptable Saints" and explain that one too while you're at it. There's much you do not know.

Fate, instead of talking about errors in the Bible, try to understand the kind of science you're believing. Im an Engineer and I read the science that you're talking about. Some are correct but many are just false.

Based on "your science", please explain to me the meaning of "Natural Selection" not by words but by equations like they do in explaining gravity, bernoulli effect, special relativity, heat transfer, amperes, half life, etc.

It will serve you well if you know that VIRTUAL REALITY OR ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE are run by equations and not just WORTHLESS WORDS.

Even sounds have GRAPHIC EQUALIZERS derived from equations.

Im sick and tired of the TRASH that I hear. Please just show the equations so I can make a model out of it.

Don't you get tired spewing trash?

Wow. Pretty heady discussions around a dead guy who told a lot of fart jokes!

But continue, please. The comment thread on a two-day old blog post concerning a dead comedian is the perfect place to clear up these issues.

Pastor Greg:

You seem moderately intelligent. How can you honestly believe in something no sober person has ever seen before. That "mystery of faith" thing is the biggest cop out, so don't give me that one.

Wouldn't it be logical to say that religion was created to control a mass of weak-minded and frightened people and that hallucinogens played a major part in early man's beliefs?

"You'll find Sirius, another red giant and also known as 'the dog star' in various mythologies as well - actually Sirius has an invisible twin and is thought to be circling a huge black hole - it seems confirmed now that each galaxy likely has a giant black hole at it's epicenter - very cool."

Well, a little correction, here: Sirius is a main sequence star, not a red giant, ...Type A1. Sirius B is a white dwarf, invisible to the naked eye, yes, but observable to a good telescope.

Sirius is so bright cause it's so *close* to us, relatively speaking.

Perspective wrote "Wow, you're into astrology too?"

Stars doesn't always mean astrology. Don't try interpreting it coz it will only show your ignorance.

What's next, horoscope?

You and Fate should talk to each other. I can't bear to hear more trash anymore. It's like watching a movie spiderman but what is being shown is "gone with the wind". It's so far off.

c ya later guys

"Based on "your science", please explain to me the meaning of "Natural Selection" not by words but by equations like they do in explaining gravity, bernoulli effect, special relativity, heat transfer, amperes, half life, etc."

'Natural Selection' isn't a single physical phenomenon. You can describe every physical phenomenon *involved* with equations, and even chart the statistics with equations, ...in fact, you can simulate and model it, if watching it in action doesn't do the job for you, (Like, for instance, when people don't take their full courses of antibiotics and end up breeding drug-resistant strains of TB, for instance.)

Just a single equation. Can I have one please?

NOT A SINGLE EQUATION BECAUSE IT DOES NOT EXIST.

Here is something you can play around like toddlers. Forget about science and engineering.

NS=Nat Sel = monkey + (stupidity)EXP(infinity) = human {Darwin Kind}

spiderman2 wrote: "Fate, instead of talking about errors in the Bible, try to understand the kind of science you're believing. Im an Engineer and I read the science that you're talking about. Some are correct but many are just false."

You say that without qualification. Can you give an example of a science that is false and show why it is false without saying it is false because it does not agree with the bible?

spiderman2 wrote: "Based on "your science", please explain to me the meaning of "Natural Selection" not by words but by equations like they do in explaining gravity, bernoulli effect, special relativity, heat transfer, amperes, half life, etc."

Look up the "Price Equation" or single locus and multilocus selection models. The amount of math involved in natural selection and evolution will likely surprise you, and is just as well tested as the equations you mention from engineering. I'd be interested to hear what you think about Price's equation.

spiderman2 wrote: "It will serve you well if you know that VIRTUAL REALITY OR ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE are run by equations and not just WORTHLESS WORDS."

So. Your point? I would just add that religion is only run by worthless words with no equations. I'm not sure where you are going with this but your own words seem to show that religion is based solely on words while natural selection, like other sciences, is based on math and other scientific tools, and its result is as strong as the buildings an engineers math constructs.

spiderman2 wrote: "Im sick and tired of the TRASH that I hear. Please just show the equations so I can make a model out of it.

Again, read up on the Price equation, locus models, etc. There's a lot of math you missed out on it seems.

spiderman2 wrote: "Don't you get tired spewing trash?"

I certainly get tired of hearing how belief is truth. Why not just say black is white. Belief and truth are antithetical. They cannot be one in the same. Once a belief is proved, say through science, it stops being a belief. But faith is belief, not truth, and I am tired of hearing how faith is truth based solely on words.

spiderman2:

Please explain all weather patterns happening on Earth currently. But just use a single equation.

You're asking for something idiotic, and then calling people out when they can't provide it.

If you think about it, 'heaven' is unfolding all around us already, and has been since at least the Enlightenment. Most of us live lives that the ancient prophets would have considered 'heavenly'. Most of us live in 'mansions' compared to ancient times. We travel around in 'wheels within wheels' (automobiles) or fly around in 'chariots of fire' (airplanes) and are 'surrounded by eyes' (cameras and other sensors), etcetera, etcetera (cf: Ezekial).

Given that humans are innately imitative beings (as, perhaps, all life is) -- and that the imitation of christ-like behavior (not faux-christian behavior) has gradually spread world-wide because of its proven ultimate truth and superiority --

And given that I can imagine being a slightly (or more) different version of 'myself' if my parents had simply married/conceived with different mates --

What does it really mean to say that we 'live' or 'die'? I think 'we' live forever to the degree that we are in imitation of christ.

There are super computers that simulate the whether. But how accurate it is depends on the accuracy of the equations formed.

With natural selection, I haven't heard of a single computer simulating gorillas turning to humans.

If ever there is a set of equations that Fate is talking about, it's as real as the equation that I just made. It's all baloney. Even the computers would crash if they try to crunch them.

Rebecca Thompson wrote: "Fate, you got it all wrong. God doesn't put people in Hell. Hell is a place void of God. People put themselves there, by choice. The fear is your own. Don't put the blame you feel for your own actions on God and say it's His fault you fear."

Well Rebecca who made hell and who decides whether you go to hell. You don't get to decide do you? If you dented a car in the parking lot and did not leave a note, who gets to decide that you go to heaven or hell with that in your past? You? hahahahahaha. Do you get to worry for the rest of your life what God will think about every little indescretion you made in your life. I'm not saying you should not self reflect on these indescritions, just that you are leaving it up to someone else to judge you, and you seem to know how you will be judged.

Rebecca Thompson wrote: "You fear things you don't understand. And you sound very afraid even now."

Really? And where did you get that gem of knowlege?

Rebecca Thompson wrote: "People who have died and returned from the dead, clinically dead!, aren't afraid to die ever again. They've been there. Yes, even the Atheists now know. Go read what they have to say before you demand what the truth really is."

Clinically dead? Meaning they were what, in a bed hooked up to life saving devices with monitors showing conditions similar to death, like a stopped heart for a short time? Or are you talking about someone buried weeks ago? My guess is you cannot come up with an example of the later.

Rebecca Thompson wrote: "You might want to think about what it is and why it is, you're trying so desperately to convince others of a Godless world. If there's nothing to believe in, you have absolutely no reason to be concerned about what they believe."

Except when people tell me that if I do not get religion I'm going to burn in hell forever. What if someone came to you and said that if you did not give them 10% of your salary per year you would burn in hell forever. Would you call a cop saying you were bring extorted? No, you would go to church and pay up at the offering. So don't be too upset when I respond as if I feel I and my family are constantly being harassed and extorted by those who make claims about my existance after death, and their solution for a price.

Rebecca Thompson wrote: "Your explanations give no explanation to the signs made to this world. Go look up "Incorruptable Saints" and explain that one too while you're at it. There's much you do not know."

Are you saying that Lenin is an Incorruptable Saint? His body is very well preserved. How about King Tut? A true christian? Rebecca, you obviously look for miracles to back up your faith and seem to find them everywhere. Do you see the Madonna in algea on the walls of highway tunnels too?

spiderman2 wrote: "There are super computers that simulate the whether. But how accurate it is depends on the accuracy of the equations formed."

But there are equations that accurately simulate the weather.

spiderman2 wrote: "With natural selection, I haven't heard of a single computer simulating gorillas turning to humans."

There are many computer similation programs for the evolutionary process. The problem with gorillas to humans (BTW, humans did not evolve from gorillas, we just have a common ancestor) is that the evolutionary process can take many turns depending on the conditions, which vary over time.

spiderman2 wrote: "If ever there is a set of equations that Fate is talking about, it's as real as the equation that I just made. It's all baloney. Even the computers would crash if they try to crunch them."

So its all baloney? You ask for equations, I give you some, you ignore them and say they are baloney? Just how many people do you expect to influence in life by arguing that things do not exist, then when shown they do exist say that they are baloney?

Tell me oh wise spiderman2, why are there kangaroos in Australia? Didn't the earth flood, killing all animals? If the kangaroos somehow got onto the ark, and the ark landed at Mt. Ararat, how did the kangaroos get to Australia?

Fate,

While the Bible is nondescript in regards to Heaven and Hell, it certainly is not on "how" we get there. God does not have an adding machine in which he adds or subtracts from your total, depending upon your works or deeds.

(I will add that Heaven clearly is not a place in the sky where the chosen play harps and sing songs for eternity).

It is clear that the gateway to Heaven is through a relationship with Christ. Denting someone's car and skipping town won't remove you from Heaven. We are all sinners. But my personal belief, is that with every sin we commit, a little piece of God that is within us is taken away. With every sin that we knowlingly commit, we draw farther away from the one who made us in His reflection.

Neal:
You were a little flippant in dismissing what happened at Fatima and Lourdes by saying that if you look into the sun , it plays tricks on you and by noting the price of Lourdes water. Neither of these statements is worthy of what happened in those places.

In Fatima, 70,000 people witnessed the miracle of the Sun on October 13, 1917. It was widely reported in the secular press and resulted in many conversions. Not only did the 70,000 witness the sun dancing but they were also completedly dried out after a drenching rain storm. In addition, there were a set of prophesies concerning Russia that appear to have been fulfilled. this is all well documented on the web.

In Lourdes, 14 year old Bernadette Soubirous saw 18 visions of the Virgin Mary starting on February 11, 1858. As these unfolded, the crowds grew into the thousands despite active opposition from the church and the government. In the midst of this, Bernadette was told to ask the "Lady" for a miraculous blooming of roses in February to demonstrate the reality of the visions. This did not happen. Instead, a spring started from a point where Bernadette was asked to dig. The healing powers of this spring are very well documented. I don't know whether anyone has ever grown back a limb but I have read of a woman who's nose and facial features had been severely disfigured by disease, who was fully cured (with I believe before and after documentation.) In addition, like all true visionaries, during the apparition, Bernadette was completely oblivious to her surroundings. During one of the visitations, she had moved a candle she was holding in a way that the flame was directly on her other hand for over en minutes without burning her, much to the amazement of an unbelieving doctor who was present. Once the apparition was over, he tested her by forcing the flame once again onto her hand, which subsequently burned her.

Keep in mind that while these events were unfolding, the Church was among those pushing back on the visionaries the hardest because it knew that false miracles would do the faith tremendous harm. It was only after very detailed evaluations over many years that the Church gave its sanction to the faithful.

There's of course far more to these modern miracles than I've enumerated in this short post. these are readily accessible on the web. These are cases where the existence of God and the sanctity of the Roman Catholic Church are proven with all the modern evidence sources: Interviews , pictures, secular newspaper accounts, detailed scientific and medical investigations,etc.

Paul C - right - the info about Lourdes is readily available on the web - and you can find just about anything you want there, but you won't find any legitimate evidence of miracle cures. Sure - lots of people go to Lourdes to take the waters, but nothing much happens. If it did, you can be SURE we'd hear about it in the mainstream media, not to mention in the official Vatican news outlets.

Regarding Fatima, funny how the sun didn't dance just a few miles down the road (not to mention all over the world) but just in that one spot where people were staring into it.

Funny too that these miracles seem to happen way out in the country among peasants and the religiously devout. Let's see Mary appear to the lunch crowd in Manhattan and I'll take another look.

Oy. Fatima. It always come back to Fatima with you people.

You know, WAY more than 70,000 people saw the Red Sox win the World Series in 2004, and I still refuse to believe it happened.

And that was a lot more of a miracle than a bunch of Portugese dirt farmers getting rained on.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Dear E Fav -

I'm afraid Paul C is one of the grasping-at-straws type of Xians, the kind who readily discount settled science that is backed up by decades of impartial research while embracing hearsay of the most-fantastic kind from heavily biased, anonymous sources.

The "miracles" he describes are easily explained as cases of mass hysteria that are the product of the mob mentality, and in these specific instances, we're dealing with mobs that were not only predisposed to witness a "miracle" but hoping and praying for the same.

Watch any of the "win a million dollars" game shows on TV and you see the same type of behavior, with contestants and even audience members closing their eyes, clenching their fists and whispering entreaties to who knows who in hopes that they can somehow influence the absolutely random act of picking the "right" suitcase. Invariably, the contestant who wins big on such shows says something along the lines of, "I never stopped believing I could do it!", or, "Thank God...I won!" Of course, the truth is that they just got lucky. Their choices being the right choices were pure happenstance.

It's frightening to realize that many if not most 21st century humans still put stock in such delusions.

My one regret in raising my kids is that I didn't send them to the same Catholic Church I grew up in.

Catholicism can inoculate you against outrageous claims, as it did Carlin. How many cultists were former Catholics? I would bet good money on not many.

Keep the edgy posts coming--don't just wait for someone like George Carlin to pass away.

Knowing what we know of the physical world, can anyone tell me where we would put the non-physical world? For how long? Scientists tell us this universe may last only a few more billion years. Sorry, I'm just having a hard time imagining where heaven -or hell- might be. I think it's here. Now.

I always valued Carlin's insights on the English language. In this area he was a rationalist with the same conerns as our founding fathers.

The relationship of language to religion should be explored.

Rest in peace on the roof George...right next to the wife-frisbee. I'm sure if you could...you'd probably take a big ole dump on this blog...and throw a fart in the end...just for effect!

Spidey:

" spiderman2:

"Just a single equation. Can I have one please?"

Maybe if you work for it.
This 'science' you don't like won't postulate one just to satisfy your need to believe your head can define things that simply, though.

"NOT A SINGLE EQUATION BECAUSE IT DOES NOT EXIST."

Well, maybe you understand the hardline atheists' point of view a little better, now.

He will be with Ben and Matt and Alanis and Silent Bob where ever they are for starting in the movie "Dogma" Genius total genius of a movie

He will be with Ben and Matt and Alanis and Silent Bob where ever they are for starting in the movie "Dogma" Genius total genius of a movie

"I certainly get tired of hearing how belief is truth. Why not just say black is white. Belief and truth are antithetical. They cannot be one in the same. Once a belief is proved, say through science, it stops being a belief. But faith is belief, not truth, and I am tired of hearing how faith is truth based solely on words."

I'm tired of hearing how there's an absolute binary dichotomy between belief (faith) and truth. You tell me that there's more math than I might imagine behind modern evolutionary theory. I believe you. The Biblical understanding of faith is more closely related to the second sentence than the first - it's a matter of who or what you put your faith and confidence in. Based on what I know about you (and, as in this case, don't know about you), I decide whether to trust you. We make these decisions all the time.

Faith doesn't mean that I have no interest in the evidence I have regarding your intelligence, good will and intentions - it means that I think I've seen enough to make a decision, and I've decided to trust what you say. It doesn't mean that I've closed my eyes - your very next post may "shake my faith" and convince me that you're an untrustworthy scoundrel (hypothetically speaking, of course).

Believers have evaluated the evidence differently than non-believers; otherwise they wouldn't come to different conclusions. But coming down on side 'A' rather than side 'B' doesn't make one group more interested in truth than the other.

well this has been a more than average interesting thread-

brambleton- no magic wands? can you say outsourcing?
mt mark has been firing on all cylinders here-

heres a general queston for the atheists that will probably keep the pot stirred-

have atheists somehow defeated fear?

fear has a very real purpose and function- even from an evolutionary perspective-

so whats the deal with that?

maybe you have some secret that you have conquered fear- but i have my doubts-

having absolutely no fear is a foolish approach to life-
unless you have conquered it, you cannot really discount it as an invalid motivator and part og the human experience-

and if you have scientifically and reproducably conquered it- you would have used it already to disprove its impact-

but no one has- we all fear-

but since this is (ostensibly) all about george- even though i dont drink i will raise my cyber guinness (with arminius) with a hale and hearty "CEAD MILLE FAITE!" to george!

http://www.libraryireland.com/articles/ceadmillefailte/index.php
peace all

Goddess, though, that really *was* genius, Kurt, particularly the Alanis bit... Everyone expecting a dying old man after some bloody battle, and they get the (mostly) Maiden. Also more, to a Pagan mind.

But anyone who says Gods don't smile or laugh, (or know wonder, even if they're supposed to be sitting in judgment, even if they got some kind of grim and sober image, well, I wouldn't trust em.

Kids grow up in this society and others, and as much as is ascribe to the omni-competence of 'God,' it often seems the only thing they can't imagine is 'God' laughing *with* us, instead of *at* us, if 'He' laughs at all.

Funny, that.

Carlin would certainly be smiling today; finding fodder for new material in all the assinine thin-skinned comments presented here by the followers of dogmatic nonsense.

Demos wrote: "Believers have evaluated the evidence differently than non-believers; otherwise they wouldn't come to different conclusions. But coming down on side 'A' rather than side 'B' doesn't make one group more interested in truth than the other."

I agree believers evaluate the evidence differently but I would point out that you cannot pick and choose your evidence and call the result truth. This is what believers do. Atheists, being outside the belief, point to the glaring inconsistencies and impossibilities of the bible and are waved off, as though what is actually written in one part of the bible is of no consequence while another part is the "word of God".

There are those who believe the bible is the word of God yet cannot explain why there are animals in Australia, since the flood killed all living things according to the bible and the world was repopulated from the ark in Asia. But this is just dismissed with hand waving that God somehow put them there after the flood, but this is just made up and accepted by believers.

If you listen to an atheist and a believer argue, the atheist always wins the argument on the inaccuracy of the bible and why some parts contradict others. But what I find more interesting is that when they discuss justice, society and charity, they are usually in complete agreement. To me this means that once you remove the delusion, believers are just like atheists. Deep down people are good. They want to participate constructively in society. They want to make society safe and comfortable. They want to help those in need. I find this is just human nature, but a believer will tell you that without belief these instincts do not exist. Yet fewer atheists are in prison than believers. Another fact of life the believers ignore to come down on side B.

Really, atheists have no problem with believers until the believers start telling them, and their kids, they are going to hell. I mean really, when did Jesus go around pointing fingers at those going to hell? That is what is just as frustrating, that some believers do not even follow their own beliefs and use their belief to feel superior. I feel sad for them but I can also understand the annoyance. If you have ever been through an airport in the 70s or 80s and been accosted by a moonie, you know what atheists must be going through every day. If you ever laughed at a Hindu praying to an elephant, you know what an atheist sees when you look up to the sky and pray, except the atheist will not laugh but understand both are actions seeking comfort. You see, once you live in the real world, and are free from the delusion of Gods, angels and miracles, a lot about life is pretty clear and easier to accept and deal with.

Hi, Victoria:

"have atheists somehow defeated fear?"

I wouldn't say they have... What they do reject is any *additional* fear religions add to the human experience.

"fear has a very real purpose and function- even from an evolutionary perspective- so whats the deal with that?"

Hey, (Not speaking as an atheist, but as one who similarly doesn't live life in fear of death and judgement as an alternative) ...I'm as afraid of *dying* as any vertebrate. Hopefully not to the point of being frozen by existential worries or needing fanaticism to face danger.

Death with a capital D, though?

Someone needs to *sell you on a need for eternal certainty* to *really* give that teeth.

People get so scared about the idea of their present personality being mortal that they need to invent eternities, of one kind or another.

Frankly, a lot of theists are trying to convince themselves if they do certain things they ain't damned, and a lot of atheists are trying to convince themselves that damnation really isn't possible.

Both are kind of about control, really.

Doesn't have to be that way.

Nope.

Someone has to *teach* you *that* kind of existential fear. Probably, yes, a lot of atheists ignore that idea based on the notion they won't be around to worry about it, anyway, though it's basically impossible to actually imagine experiencing not existing at all...

Which makes that possibility pretty moot, apart from being understandably tired of monotheists trying to mess with the lives we *have* right now to appease some other fear...

In a world of procrastinators who flip out when hemlines change, I find it kind of ironic that for our spirits, a lot of folks can accept no less than 'forever.' Even for consolation.

Fate asks:

"when did Jesus go around pointing fingers at those going to hell?"

Actually, as Christopher Hitchens has observed, the idea of eternal hellfire isn't to be found in the OT, especially for non-believers. In the OT, once god had the Jews enact genocide, the vanquished were dead, dead, dead. Existence was over for them. Period.

But, as Hitchens' turns the phrase, "it took the arrival of Gentle Jesus, meek and mild" to advance the idea of eternal suffering for non-believers. See Matthew 5:22, for example. The Gospel of Luke is fairly teeming with examples of hellfire, with Jesus as the one casting people into it.

Jesus talks about hell a lot, pointing his you're-going-to-hell finger at anyone and everyone who disagrees with him.

thanks for the honest answer paganplace-

i think it comes down to the smugness of both the believers and the non-believers-

both share a foolish lack of both common sense and fear-
one thinks (smugly)they have an automatic pass to heaven- (i think that encourages a lax conscience- why pay much attention to your actions if you've got the ticket in already? people are at the core lazy)

one thinks (smugly) they somehow have superior brains and perceptions next to all the brains and perceptions that were, are and will come-
and have no fear of hell nor hope of heaven-

both, to me- are extremely arrogant and obnoxious positions-

no room for humility or strong awareness of the now for either-

(i'm a muslim and we freely admit that we don't know if weve got the golden ticket or not- we go on the premise that it is likely we do not)

whether or not others agree with that- condescendingly feel superior to it- or whatever-
it certainly makes for a robust awareness-

peace

Fate: FH wrote: "I don't think naturalism or creationism are going to be proved in our lifetime, so I'm going to go with the one that provides me comfort and hope."

"Well, naturalism has been proved many times and in many ways. And the results have been backed up yet again with recent DNA mappings of other species. The amount of evidence for naturalism is volumous and the inconsistencies are few. You cannot say that about creationism and you cannot find creationist papers offering anything in the way of proofs FOR creationism, which indicates it is not science."

The Big Bang ended pure naturalism as an option Fate.

Not enough time; earliest life is too complex, and appeared too early in earth's history; mutations are simply not efficient enough to account for the diverse life on earth.

That leads me to a causal agent...it matters not to me whether through "natural selection" or direct intervention. We can argue back-and-forth about those details, but neither of us is going to change the others mind.

But Fate, the void is calling, your finite time here is coming to an end...go live your life and stop wasting it debating a bunch of ignoramuses.

People MUST be able to separate their spirituality from the church. Churches for years have had their own agendas, like how Pope What's His Name talked Charlemagne into invading Ireland, and how in the OT the Hebrews changed the Word as the need arose, eventually molding the texts that comprise the OT into one that would influence the people into solidarity (Robert Graves/Raphael Patai "Hebrew Myths" - read it! It's awesome). Introducing worship of Jesus - they had to make him into a Sun King to make him palatable to people in western Europe. This stuff has been melded and glossed for years and changed as the need arose to lead people into where the ruling class wanted them to go!

I believe in God and Spirit, and I believe in treating people as well as I would like to be treated, but I don't let dogma get in the way! I think that was what Carlin was calling, and I love him for it. He was one of the first people that made me think about this when I was a wee bairnette.

Mr. mark, E Fav, Friendobill,
Do you have any idea how condencending you are to the faithful? Comparing them to Game show contestants, calling them Portugese Dirt Farmers. Apparently only Manhattanites are good enough to be believable. And other than to handwave and scoff, you did nothing to address my points (because your only defence is to say that Portugese Dirt farmers and the faithful aren't reliable witnesses.) If you really check, you would find that people just as faithless and just a intelligent as you were there and believed.

Hi, Victoria,

You are correct - both extreme sides of the debate, the Dobsons and the most vocal of non-believers, are arrogant. Compassion is unknown to them, their only driving force is pushing their particular agenda. And it is the middle group, you, I, others, that are in the crossfire. Makes for an interesting life sometimes.

Anyway, the idea that Christians have an instant and automatic 'golden ticket' to heaven is not true. Sadly, this view is held by too many so-called Christians. But there is no guarantee. One must repent of one's sins - that means a 'turning away' from your transgressions and reforming your life. And sticking to it!

Arminius

Fate, I also studied what Rebecca has noted about incorruptible saints and that's not what she meant, nor said.

You cannot compare Lenin or King Tut to those unexplained corpses because Lenin and Tut were preserved by articial means. Those saints were not preserved whatsoever. Yet those remain intact and quite looking like the day they died, despite the fact that many of the relics today are hundreds of years old.

You would do well to take the time to understand the phenomenon of the subject, rather than toss scoffing insults.

I find it hard to believe you're being so harrassed as you claim by believers of a faith you want nothing to do with. No one forced you to read here or get yourself into arguments elsewhere. Just a thought.

The CFDBD (i.e., Church of the Ferrel Dog Blood Drinkers) is often overlooked in these discussions about the afterlife and god. WP, please dedicate a piece for us the next time you publish.

FH wrote: "The Big Bang ended pure naturalism as an option Fate. Not enough time; earliest life is too complex, and appeared too early in earth's history; mutations are simply not efficient enough to account for the diverse life on earth."

Not sure what you mean. Lets take these one at a time:
-Not enough time? Why do you say that? The fossil record shows species changing regualrly over a period of about 100,000 years and even less time. Do you know how many 100,000 year periods there have been in the 500 million years since the first multicellular life appeared in the fossil record? There has been plenty of time.

-How to *you* know the earliest life was complex, or are you assuming it was like bacteria today, which had 4 billion years to evolve more complexity than they had at the beginning?

-The first evidence of life is about 500 million years after the earth formed. Too early?

-You statement about mutations is not backed up with anything. Do you have a source for this information? Mutations happen all the time and can lead to changes, but what really drives speciation is separation of a species geographically leading to a change in their natural variation. For example, wolly mammoths in the north with long hair and fat, elephants at the equator with little hair or fat.

FH wrote: "That leads me to a causal agent...it matters not to me whether through "natural selection" or direct intervention. We can argue back-and-forth about those details, but neither of us is going to change the others mind."

Just so you don't get blindsided, scientists only started working on creating life in a test tube a decade ago and are getting close to showing much that I doubt you even thought possible. DNA, RNA, amino acids, fatty acids, all created in the lab from the constitutents of the early earth. They even got the fatty acids to form closed cells that have a lipid bi-layer, which each of your cells has. Much has been done in a short time. One wonders how the various churches will react when scientists can successfully create a primitive self-replicating life in the lab. I guess they will only have the origin of the universe to point to as "proof" of God's existance, but scientists are closing in on that mystery also. Like hw the sun could shine for so long, these proofs of God's existance just keep getting knocked down by science.

FH wrote: "But Fate, the void is calling, your finite time here is coming to an end...go live your life and stop wasting it debating a bunch of ignoramuses."

Exposing people's twisted thinking might help them see a little of the reality they ignore. Things have gotten to the point where our foreign policy depends on maintaining the state of Israel since it is required for the apocolypse to occur. It is not just harmless religious belief, it affects a lot more and needs to be stood up to. We hear the religious talk about 911 being retribution for America's sins, or Katrina for New Orleans gay parade, or China's earthquake due to its treatment of Tibet. The insanity must stop. The delusion is the problem and so, sorry, the debate must continue.

Dear Paul C -

I can only speak for myself, but I DID address your post. You just didn't like the answer I provided.

I am not condescending towards your views, but I will not allow you a special carve out in your truth claims that I would not grant to anything else. "Because I said so" and its companions in fantasy, "I believe" and "Because the Bible said so" cut no slack with me, nor do their whole-cloth pronouncements substituted as proof to cold hard facts.

You seem to believe that religious beliefs get some kind of a special dispensation. Why? Because a high percentage of people believe the same delusion? I don't think so (see: Colin Powell/UN Speech/WMD Lies/bush water carrier/90% of Americans believed the lies).

But it's even worse than that, because you don't provide such a carve out to religions besides your own. Are you willing to say that Hindus and Muslims have a truth claim that is just as valid as is yours? How about the followers of Zeus? Is their truth claim just as truthful as that of the Xians? If not, then how can you possibly expect anyone to give your Xianity such a benefit of the doubt?

Your posts indicate that you're quite new to dialoguing with non-believers. That's good, stick around. However, you'll find that your easily knocked-down arguments have a short shelf life on this blog, and the expected whining about how mean the atheists have been to you after your arguments have been knocked down has an even shorter shelf life.

In closing, let me say that I respect your right to your beliefs and your right to express them. It's the beliefs themselves that are unworthy of respect, just as the belief that the Earth is flat is no longer worthy of respect.

"both, to me- are extremely arrogant and obnoxious positions-

"no room for humility or strong awareness of the now for either-

"(i'm a muslim and we freely admit that we don't know if weve got the golden ticket or not- we go on the premise that it is likely we do not)"

I think it's a false humility to claim either utter mastery or helplessness in the face of the ocean...

It's hubris to claim it's impossible or needless to learn to swim.

One of my favorite Carlin rants here:

"I’d like to talk about some things that bring us together, things that point out our similarities instead of our differences, because that’s all you ever hear about in this country, is our differences. That’s all the media and the politicians are ever talking about, the things that separate us, things that make us different from one another. That’s the way the ruling class operates in any society. They try to divide the rest of the people. They keep the lower and the middle classes fighting with each other, so that they, the rich, can run off with all the [bleep] money. Fairly simple thing, happens to work. You know, anything different, that’s what they’re going to talk about. Race, religion, ethnic and national background, jobs, income, education, social status, sexuality. Anything you can do, keep us fighting with each other, so that they can keep going to the bank.

You know how I describe the economic and social classes in this country? The upper class keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there just to scare the [bleep] out of the middle class. Keep them showing up at those jobs."

Gotta chime in on this, though:

"FH wrote: "The Big Bang ended pure naturalism as an option Fate. Not enough time; earliest life is too complex, and appeared too early in earth's history; mutations are simply not efficient enough to account for the diverse life on earth."

Actually, that's simply not the case.

Billion? Million? Do you even understand these numbers?

It's *your* dis-educated opinion that science says there is nothing but randomness.

There *is* what we might call 'randomness,' but also properties of the world where that which sustains and replicates *get past the dice,* so to speak. Cause they sustain and replicate... Cause this is *advantageous,* and energy is still plentiful, mathematically-speaking.

It's not externally-designed or controlled or beamed in out of nowhere, but it does happen, and the processes are observable, if a little complex for those used to being taught that any science you can be confused about of course means.

Like.... Life.

Just cause someone taught you to plug fourteen billion years into some notion of what we can really conceptualize on a human scale, then gave you positive reinforcement for not-getting it, doesn't mean a billion years isn't still a billion years. Our time sense gets pretty fuzzy after about ten, and your ancestors of four generations ago are likely no better known to you than the potentates of the time.

We're not talking about a lump of clay with a rib in it, here, we're talking about more molecules than there are stars in the observable universe, many times over, with billions of years each to end up in sustainable combinations.

'Big Bang' theory didn't 'end' anything... In fact, the current math says even that was likely 'just' the intersection of a couple of 'membranes' in a bigger universe still.

Pardon if I don't see the need to knuckle under Republican authority cause your curiosity is more finite than others' in a universe like this.

good one paganplace- i had to read it like 3 times to get it-

mr mark- you're generally a pretty cool cucumber in here- with alot of interesting connections and points-

now i was thinking, i'm not a scientist- nor trained at all that way- yet i really admire almost idolize scientists-
it takes alot of practice and dedication and dogged dedication and persistence in the face of failure- to do research-

also there are flashes of inspiration-

why do atheists have such a disdain for the right brained types that focus so much time, energy, dedication and persistance in our prayer life?
prayer meditation contemplation whatever one likes to call it-

the hardest work of any kind i have ever done is meditating- and i have had results that are only measurable to my own psyche- but results they are-

who knows that one day there may be a melding of science and spirituality- maybe elctromagnetic maybe who knows-

why would any who recognize and applaud a scientific approach to the material world- not recognize that folks whose minds ar ewired differently have a scientific approach to consciousness?

doesnt it require an exploration into said processes to dismiss them out of hand?

its like that stupid love guru thread, i kept asking how people could have an opinion about the movie if they havent seen it?

how can non-believers state with such certainty about the mentality of believers when they havent explored that particular branch of humanity?

now- im addressing you- but speaking to atheists in general here-
also i dont expect much of an answer since ive provided such a sparse example to draw from myself-

but, it is a thought- i think-

Athena,

While I can appreciate Carlin's words, he's playing on mythical stereotypes (which is what makes it funny?). 20% of the U.S. taxpayers pay 80% of the federal taxes. These are the facts and they are not in dispute.

So this is what journalism at a major American newspaper has come to. Pathetic.

Spectator: " The relationship of language to religion should be explored."

Great idea. "Truth", "salvation" etc means different things to different faiths.

As for language used in On Faith blogs on religion....

Mr. George Carlin came up with seven words to never use on TV. Those words are now so overused in Hollywood movies and WaPo blogs (in astericks, but we know what a poster meant) that those seven little words are so cliche, boring and limiting.

It is the inventive invectives, creative put-downs and descriptions in On Faith threads, including "gutter slugs", "spiritual airheads", "spiritual dilenttantes" that are more interesting to be explored as language used by posters on other posters in discussing matters related to religion.

Cheers
"J"

dont atheists ever wonder why millions and millions and billions of people have prayed?

isnt it one sided to ignore such a tremendous aspect of our natures?

just having a bad experience with some adherents of one or another sect doesnt exclude one form investigating further-

i explored the possibilites of non-godness-
but the universe kept compelling me to belief-

i didnt see your post paganplace and had to laugh at myself for my own (carl sagan voicover)milions and billions

Spidey, would that be a stationary or choo choo train engineer?

FH wrote: "But Fate, the void is calling, your finite time here is coming to an end...go live your life and stop wasting it debating a bunch of ignoramuses."

"Exposing people's twisted thinking might help them see a little of the reality they ignore."

In your world-view, you can't even trust reality...consciousness is simply an evolutionary enigma. Ironically most of it's proponents seem to do everything they can to overcome the very naturalism they preach. No kids, elevating species over themselves, condemning practices that have led to greater success as a species...you know, like religion.

If you are going to make outrageous claims, such as

"Just so you don't get blindsided, scientists only started working on creating life in a test tube a decade ago and are getting close to showing much that I doubt you even thought possible. DNA, RNA, amino acids, fatty acids, all created in the lab from the constitutents of the early earth"

you better back that up with a link. Origin of life research is at a standstill...and frankly when you start your sentence with "scientists only started working on creating life in a test tube a decade ago" that shows a level of ignorance on the subject that I find baffling from someone who is claiming the intellectual high-ground. Creating life in a lab has been the highest priority of origin of life researchers for decades.

Paganplace:
Yea, yea, given enough time you could lay an egg out you a.., we've heard it all before. Nothing new to the discussion.
Again, time is passing you by...this is all you get...better get on with it.

Paul C - I used Manhattan as an example. Any well populated locale with people representing a variety of world-views would do. I figured you'd know that -- and I think you probably did.

What you take for condescension may be your first experience at not having talk of miracles met with agreement, mild interest, or what may have seemed like silent reverence – but was actually shocked disbelief that a grown man took the Lady of Fatima seriously.

Victoria:

"it takes alot of practice and dedication and dogged dedication and persistence in the face of failure- to do research-"

No experiment is a 'failure,' Victoria, unless maybe you fail to learn anything from it.

People braying 'Science has failed to eliminate uncertainty,' usually just can't admit it in themselves, even if they think insisting harder that they have means they did. :)

No one here knows what George Carlin now knows, what being dead is all about. The only way to find that out is die. Sooner or later we like him will find out. In the mean time Saint George Carlin is still a step ahead of us all.

He seems to have understood that religion is a totally separate subject to God. To claim to know about God, what God wants is as ridiculous as to claim to know what happens after one dies.

Anyone who says I have spoken to God is an ipso facto proved liar. There is no way to identify God. The best a truthful person can say is I had an unusual experience. Was that God or Lucifer in the burning bush? Sucker.

Carlin understood that principle and therefore knew that religion, any religion, all religions are a fraud. Frauds rely on the lie. Lying is not a deadly sin. Lies that cause people to believe are moral even. There are the liars and the lied to found in churches, temples, synagogues and mosques.

The use of "afterlife" was introduced to cloud ancient man's version of what happens to the dead, the foundation of modern religion's claim to heaven. It's not "afterlife" but rather "next life". Jesus speaks of the "next life" complete with a new body several times in the Gospels, (good news'). "If your eye cause you to sin pluck it out. It's better to enter [the next] life missing a part of your body that to have a whole one that is cast into fiery hell."

Of course hoax-buster.org explains that, "next life" with Biblical quotes and ancient documents. Hoax buster is a little to honest for a faith forum. Odd that George Carlin isn't. Planning to condemn George to hell?

Dear Victoria -

Thanks for the comments. Let me respond. You wrote:

"now i was thinking, i'm not a scientist- nor trained at all that way- yet i really admire almost idolize scientists-"

As do I. I am not a scientist. I have the average grounding in science that most Americans receive from their public schools. However, my interest in science didn't end when the bell rang on my final class session, and I have not had a fear of science drummed into me by a religion, so I continue to learn from science, rather than actively avoiding it. Ergo, I may APPEAR to have a more-scientific bent than others. My having a greater respect and knowledge of science than the average religious blogger at On Faith speaks to their deficiencies, not to my expertise.

"it takes alot of practice and dedication and dogged dedication and persistence in the face of failure- to do research-"

Yes it does. I just read about an evolutionary scientist who has been developing a strain of e-coli bacteria over the past 20 years. There have been 44,000 generations of the strain which has evolved in amazing ways.

"also there are flashes of inspiration-"

and dead ends of tremendous disappointment

"why do atheists have such a disdain for the right brained types"

let me interrupt here.

I believe people need to have a balance of right-left brain. I happen to be a musician whose right-brain can be said to govern the emotional expression of music performance. The left-brain handles the technical end, like reading music and one's manual dexterity on an instrument. Without left-brain involvement, the right-brain is helpless to even get the notes played on time and in tune. Without right brain involvement, the music may as well be generated by a computer. To continue...

"that focus so much time, energy, dedication and persistance in our prayer life?"

With my previous paragraph in mind, I would posit that to engage in such right-brained activities to the exclusion of the consideration of left-brained realities (say, science and knowledge) are by definition ego-centric exercises in self-aggrandizement. At best, they are positive attempts at out-of-the-box inquiry. At worst, they're little more than mental masturbation.

" prayer meditation contemplation whatever one likes to call it-"

everything in moderation

"why would any who recognize and applaud a scientific approach to the material world- not recognize that folks whose minds ar ewired differently have a scientific approach to consciousness?"

Isn't that what education is all about? To fill in the missing pieces of our knowledge set? Why ASSUME that people who are predisposed to right-brained activities are incapable of learning and appreciating left-brained activites...and vice versa? Can a musician not understand the principles of evolution? Can the scientist not enjoy a Beethoven symphony?

"doesnt it require an exploration into said processes to dismiss them out of hand?"

Religious beliefs are not being dismissed out of hand, they are being dismissed for both lack of evidence and because of evidence TO THE CONTRARY.

That is an important point that cannot be stressed enough. When and if religion can and does present EVIDENCE (not hearsay, belief or opinion) to counter things that have been proved scientifically, then and only then does the rational world owe it to itself to not dismiss religion's "truths" out of hand.

Claims made without proof may be dismissed without proof.

"its like that stupid love guru thread, i kept asking how people could have an opinion about the movie if they havent seen it?

Agreed.

"how can non-believers state with such certainty about the mentality of believers when they havent explored that particular branch of humanity?"

Who says they haven't? 99% of the atheists here were believers at one time. They - like you - fervently believed that they not only explored that branch of humanness, but that they experienced the presence of god in one way or another.

The certainty of their current non-belief is not a product of their not having explored. It's actually a certainty that has been reinforced through their previous exploration coupled with the way they believe now having embraced rational thought, real evidence and that which any fair-minded person would consider DEMONSTRATED truth.

Back at ya.

Mr Mark:

I trust that scientist isn't responsible for e-coli alleged to be in tomatoes and killing people.

A tribute to George Carlin:
Unsafe tomatoes is the last straw.
Eat beef get mad cow.
Eat chicken get avian flu.
Eat pork and go to hell.
Salads are killing people.
And now tomatoes turn deadly.

Nothing left that's safe to eat except chocolate.

Mr. Mark wrote " having embraced rational thought, real evidence and that which any fair-minded person would consider DEMONSTRATED truth."

As an Engineer and very much capable of understanding scientificworks, Im really aching to see any DEMONSTRABLE claims by atheists that led them to believe that their kind of science REALLLY DOES EXIST.

DNAs are composed of billions of nucleotides but Im still waiting for their DEMONSTRATION how nucleotides form even just a hundred of them.

What is the science behind their forming? What mathematical equation or chemical equation ?

Surely there should be one if these people are rational being.

BUT THERE IS NONE!!!

All I get are trash words. Just words and NO REAL SCIENTIFIC BACKING.

I can say that the Big Bang Theory is a credible one. I can understand the science behind it.

But DNA is a different matter. It shows a very different kind of science. NOBODY HAS BROKE THE CODE YET BUT STILL I HEAR ALL KINDS OF GARBAGE SCIENCE.

WHEN WILL YOU GUYS STOP THE STUPIDITY. It's very irritating to the ears.

spiderman2:

Ah, at last a perfect one to tell us how we know which being that was in the burning bush. Tell us how you engineer/scientist can tell the difference in God and Devil? What are the distinguishing characteristics of God not found in any other being real of mythical?

If you really are a scientist you know that anyone who says, "I spoke to God" is a liar because God cannot be identified.

The only deadly sin is stupidity committed by those who call Lucifer God.

Spiderman2:

"but for God all things are possible." Christian

"but with time, all things are possible" Athiest

Get it.

BGone -

The article on the e-coli study is here:

....http://scienceblogs.com/loom/2008/06/02/a_new_step_in_evolution.php....

FH, try this one and use all your time together with your evolutionist scientists. Make a device that can store human consciousness or memory akin to computers retrieving their "memory" from hard disks or flash memories. You'll be richer than Bill Gates a billion times if you can solve that.

Do some mental acrobatics sometimes so your brains don't get dull. It will help you too to size up what's the REAL MEANING of intelligence.

Bgone, please explain what made you think the burning bush was Lucifer and not God.

c ya later guys.

" spiderman2:

"FH, try this one and use all your time together with your evolutionist scientists. Make a device that can store human consciousness or memory akin to computers retrieving their "memory" from hard disks or flash memories. You'll be richer than Bill Gates a billion times if you can solve that."

Why? Is that what you want from what people say is promised by your God?

Do you really have any idea what you're asking?

All sane people here,

Spidey reminds me of an article I read some months ago about a lab breeding rats. They decided to breed two types, one for docility, one for aggression. Since rats breed fast, it was not long before they had results. The docile rats were wonderfully gentile and made great pets. But the aggressive rats - holy s***! - just walk by their cage and they leaped at the bars, trying to attack you.

That's Spidey, a self-bred aggressive rat, screaming at us from his self-made cage. He is to be pitied, and prayed for (if you do that). He is best ignored. Eventually (unlike CCNL) he goes away.

Arminius

I think spidey and FH have had their jobs replaced by robots considering their disdain for machines ever reaching human capabilities. I wonder if they know who/what makes their daily bread?

IMPORTANT CORRECTION!

Boy did I goof! I wrote, "The docile rats were wonderfully gentile..."

Non-Jewish rats! ROTFLMAF! Make that 'gentle' rats, please!

Hope y'all got a laugh!

Arminius

Actually, nearly any domestic rat will imprint on you as family if you treat em as such at the right age, Arminius, not that some traits aren't more prominent in some that others, but even the sweetest-tempered rat might snap at you if you handle them, if they missed that bonding period: not to overstate any 'Nature vs nurture' arguments, but rats are very like us, including what happens if you raise em with nothing but cages.

"CAM:
The worst punishment for Carlin would be the Christian paradise: Boredom for ethernity! Unless he gets Saint Peter's job. Then even Satan will behave to get to heaven. I wouldn't like to be in the pants of all the suicide bombers. Carlin will have an ethernal party mocking them about their 70 virgins."

Its 72 virgins. Please know your Islam before mocking it. Thank U.