Odd Purity Ball

Here's a novel idea - talk WITH your children - sons and daughters - not TO them or AT them.

Let them know the reasons that sex at too young an age or too early in a relationship is not a good idea. Be open to ALL their questions and concerns, even - no, especially - the ones that may be outside your own comfort zone. Keep your own ick factors out of it.

Teach them how to protect themselves from disease and unwanted pregnacy as well.

Let them know that their bodies and their hormones are not enemies to be conquered.

If your daughter knows that she can come to you and ask you to take her to the gynecologist for birth control pills without you freaking out on her, she's more likely to come to you to discuss the question of whether she and her boyfriend are ready for sex before they decide for themselves that they ae ready.

Hello, JJ.

"By making their virginity, and the holiness that emanates from it, so daddy-derived they are rendered co-dependent both in their faith and in their sexuality."

Oh, ya. And let me tell you it's just a world of 'grace' for rape victims, aka one in three American women, when their religion is more concerned with 'impurity' than, ....other concerns that might be of note.

Feh.

Or, in other words, by claiming 'virginity' is a 'thing' which is girl's only value in the universe, funny how many seek to 'take it away.'

And how that ends up playing out.

Hi, Lepi. :)

Yeah, though, 'Purity.' Funny how many of these 'pure' people have been trying to block vaccinations for HPV on the basis that *sometimes* HPV is sexually-transmitted, and therefore 'pure' girls need to live in fear of cervical cancer just cause anything which might possibly in some preacher's mind scare them out of sex must be 'Godly.'

Even if it means dying of cancer from a bad tampon or whatever.

Feh.

Btw. Got news for said loving Christians. Cervical cancer doesn't exactly figure into the equation when it comes to sex. Ever. For anyone.

Worth killing your 'pure' daughters for?'

Lucky for the Duke of Yorkshire Pudding he managed to catch the king to inform him the key didn't fit. Of course he came running after only so the king wouldn't carelessly lose the right key.

This is a link in a rather long chain. Trying to make sense out of it is like trying to examine a fragment of a hand grenade just after the explosion while it's whizzing by. Very difficult to see where it came from but real easy to understand how one must not get in it's way. Something is likely to get killed. I won't guess what that might be in this case but seems to me Miss Claire Hoffman knows, reading between her lines.

Or.... Bgone, .....

It could be not-as-incomprehensible as some are very invested in cracking it up to be.

Enjoy the fragments.

Eeeeee Haaaaa!

Hello Hello Hello me Sweet Sweet

B-U-T-T-E-R-F-L-Y! The Monarch of the airwaves! Regards To Sweet sweet "WARM-HEART", "The LiON" et al!

Waving at PP...

I recall the "damaged goods" warning from my mom. She taught me zero about things like birth control and STD prevention. After all, why would I need to know any of that since she had already told me that I was supposed to "save myself" for my husband. As though my "self" was sealed up inside my vagina and an intact hymen was the biological equivalent of a Tupperware lid preventing it from becoming stale.

Didn't slow down my sex drive. Thankfully, my first sexual experience was with someone considerably older who DID know about such things.

And why not offer your kids a vaccine against STD's? I tend to be suspicious of any new drug when it first comes out after a couple of bad experiences with new pharmaceuticals, but if you're going to vaccinate them against other viruses, then why not get this one too? It's not going to make them think they can go out and have sex with no consequences. And if, gods forbid, they should be raped by someone with HPV, is it not better to have those antibodies in place?

The 1st Time "i" got Raped by a girl, was the 1st time "i" got Layed. But there is a catch to that:

"i" caught the 'Crabs'! ya Ya Momma Poppo Monsa Mono's!

Yesterday's WaPo carried an article entitled:

"A debunking on teens and 'technical virginity'
Study: Oral sex not commonplace among those who avoid intercourse"

See here (...http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24717420/...) for an enlightening article that resoundingly puts the lie to a popular urban myth.

Gods know, Lepi.

If I was having a tenth the sex some Christians like to accuse me of without even asking if I got feeling below the tenth vertebra, I'd have both a happier partner and...

Ok, I'm kidding, it's not that bad, but still. 'Purity balls?'

I hope certain types are done trying to define *me* by sex.

O girl, you are so out of touch with your "rusted chastity belt" comment.

Chastity belts were used as a defence against rape- the weapon of choice against women in times of war.

Check out the lastest attempt to fight back and regain control by a woman in South Africa:

"Rapex - dubbed the 'rape trap' - is a product worn internally by women. The hollow inside is lined with rows of razor-sharp hooks, which are designed to latch on to a rapist's penis during penetration. They can only be removed by a doctor."

Pagan, young ladies do have a spark of something that's put there naturally and for good reason. I am left to wonder if daddy/daughter dances do anything either for or to it. And I do mean wonder because I don't have a clue. Reading the essay I sense that the author does know from personal experience. That's what I think I learned reading it anyhow.

The "key" I've had explained already. I hope it's not quite that bad but again only those who have been there know for sure if it can be known for sure. I suspect that different folk react differently. Stalin had a go at the seminary so I doubt all the young ladies get the same alteration whatever it is if any at all. Could be as innocent as a daddy's kiss or as sinister as a private session with a priest. In any event I'll steer clear until I finish Jesus boot camp and you know I'm a slow learner.

theresa:
O girl, you are so out of touch with your "rusted chastity belt" comment.

Chastity belts were used as a defence against rape- the weapon of choice against women in times of war.

Check out the lastest attempt to fight back and regain control by a woman in South Africa:

"Rapex - dubbed the 'rape trap' - is a product worn internally by women. The hollow inside is lined with rows of razor-sharp hooks, which are designed to latch on to a rapist's penis during penetration. They can only be removed by a doctor."
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Doesn't that pretty much also rule out any posibility of consensual sex unless the woman wants to/can afford a trip to the doctor every time she wants to make love with the person of her choice?
In act, it seems that it would even rule out the possibility of penetrative masturbation.

Sounds to me like the device punishes women for being female by removing any chance of sexual pleasure as a way of preventing the possibility of rape. And it doesn't even prevent rape, it just holds the rapist's penis inside her! My guess is that it would likely also piss him off, which would result in him further injuring her.

Someone thinks-

"Doesn't that pretty much also rule out any posibility of consensual sex unless the woman wants to/can afford a trip to the doctor every time she wants to make love with the person of her choice? In act, it seems that it would even rule out the possibility of penetrative masturbation."

Well isn't that perverted? Way outstrips the "rusted chastity belt" comment. The Rapex is inserted and removed like a tampon. Did you think it was glued in? Go untwist you're thinking.

"Sounds to me like the device punishes women for being female by removing any chance of sexual pleasure as a way of preventing the possibility of rape."

In Africa rape (like HIV) is pandemic. If a woman must walk to and from work alone or care for children and the elderly in isolation, she is in potential danger. You are worrying about her chances of sexual pleasure? Then you've never been raped.

THERESA:
**Someone thinks-

"Doesn't that pretty much also rule out any posibility of consensual sex unless the woman wants to/can afford a trip to the doctor every time she wants to make love with the person of her choice? In act, it seems that it would even rule out the possibility of penetrative masturbation."

Well isn't that perverted? Way outstrips the "rusted chastity belt" comment. The Rapex is inserted and removed like a tampon. Did you think it was glued in? Go untwist you're thinking.**

According to YOUR post, the device can only be removed by a doctor. It's been a while since I had a period, but I don't recall needing a doctor to remove my tampons for me.

**"Sounds to me like the device punishes women for being female by removing any chance of sexual pleasure as a way of preventing the possibility of rape."

In Africa rape (like HIV) is pandemic. If a woman must walk to and from work alone or care for children and the elderly in isolation, she is in potential danger. You are worrying about her chances of sexual pleasure? Then you've never been raped.**

Actually, I have been raped. And I've been beaten. And I've had my home broken into and robbed. And I still refuse to carry a gun or to lock myself indoors. I refuse to constantly look over my shoulder every time I walk down the street.
Am I careful? Yes. Will I live in a constant state of fear? No. Will I deny myself the rights and pleasures to which I am entitled simply to avoid the possibility of harm? No.

Theresa:

I just re-read your original post about the Rapex and realized that yiu were referring to removing it from the rapist's penis.
At first, I thought you meant that a doctor's assistance was required to remove it from the woman.

I misunderstood and I apologize.

Someone says-

"According to YOUR post, the device can only be removed by a doctor."

Read again then untwist your thinking

"Rapex - dubbed the 'rape trap' - is a product worn internally by women. The hollow inside is lined with rows of razor-sharp hooks, which are designed to latch on to a rapist's penis during penetration. They can only be removed by a doctor."

The Rapex doesn't latch onto the wearer.

And I'm sorry you've been raped. But with your current frame of mind, you should be thankful you live in America and not Africa.

Theresa:

I am glad for many reasons that I live in America, even with all her flaws.
That's one of the reasons I refuse to live in fear, and I oppose so many of the so-called Homeland Security measures.
When you allow fear of the bad guys to rule your life, they've won.

Someone-

You've been raped. You know it no "badge of honour". It is an act of violence that leaves a woman scarred emotionally and sexually impaired.

The Rapex gives a woman living as a potential victim with no protection and no recourse an opportunity to regain power and control over her body.

The woman living in fear is the woman who choses to accept possible rape (and the risk of disease and pregnancy) without taking up a weapon, no matter the risk.

As a woman- I'd rather have a weapon and I'd rather fight back.

To get back on the subject... there is kind of an "ick" factor with them. The old song says "my HEART belongs to Daddy" not "my virginity". There's something kind of incestuous - or at least FLDS - about them.

Theresa -
Who said I wouldn't fight back if attacked? I just said that I won't let fear rule my life. I don't look in the mirror every morning, emnumerate all the possible crimes I might be the victim of today simply on account of being female and petite, and then put on my Kevlar and lace undies and body armor.
And just out of curiosity, why do you insist on referring to me as "Someone" when my name is Lepidopteryx? I do you the courtesy of using your name - please reciprocate.

Athena -
I agree that the whole "My cherry belongs to Daddy" bit is kind of creepy. When I was growing up, my dad would take on anyone who posed a menace to his family (still would, in fact), but it wasn't like he took a special interest in preserving my sister's and my virginity to the point of planning an evening's entertainment around it.

Sorry L- I'm multi-tasking and didn't have time to type your unfamiliar name. No offense meant.

"Who said I wouldn't fight back if attacked?"

In a prior post you said-

"I still refuse to carry a gun"

Unless you are superwoman or living in a safe community, you are not preparing to fight back. Not all woman have that luxury or make that choice..

Also-

That a father should take an interest in his children's sexuality is not new or unusual. Most families worldwide are concerned about the new generation and are hopeful of making good alliances with suitable in-laws for a prosperous and healthy future.

The innuendoes of sexual repression and incest are in the minds of those who find them. The real purpose of "true love waits", "chastity balls", and the like is practical planning for the future generation not an obsession with a child's sexual pleasure.

Maybe it's just me, but there's something very creepy about 'Purity Balls'. Based on the evidence, may we safely assume they will work as well as 'abstinence-only' sex ed?

The incidence of incest among evangelicals is rather high.

The form (dance) is a little odd, but the intent is right. I think it could only help our culture if more physically and/or emotionally absent fathers would take the traditional, noble role of protector. They show they care - and good for them.

Used to be that a dad would sit a date/potential suitor down and inquire, "What are your intentions towards my daughter?"
Some would replace the question with, "Do you plan to use protection?"

theresa:
**"Who said I wouldn't fight back if attacked?"

In a prior post you said-

"I still refuse to carry a gun"

Unless you are superwoman or living in a safe community, you are not preparing to fight back. Not all woman have that luxury or make that choice..**

I've lived in some fairly rough areas - not war zones, but as rough as I ever want to get.
I don't like guns. I'm not sure that I could shoot to kill, and I know that if I can't, it will most likely be taken away and used on me.
I carry pharmaceutical grade pepper spray - blinds, takes breath away, gives me a chance to run. I carry a cell phone - allows me to call 911 while running.
And if I have to fight, I fight dirty.

**That a father should take an interest in his children's sexuality is not new or unusual. Most families worldwide are concerned about the new generation and are hopeful of making good alliances with suitable in-laws for a prosperous and healthy future.**

My daughter's dad and I never thought about her sexuality in terms of "making good alliances with suitable in-laws for a prosperous and healthy future." We just always hoped that she would someday find someone with whom she would be happy. She has found someone and they recently moved in together. Her dad and I both like the young man and couldn't be happier for them.

**The innuendoes of sexual repression and incest are in the minds of those who find them. The real purpose of "true love waits", "chastity balls", and the like is practical planning for the future generation not an obsession with a child's sexual pleasure.**

Not everyone wishes to marry. Not everyone seeks a monogamous life-long relationship. To tell young people that the pleasures of sex are only for those with the appropriate piece of paper from the Clerk of Court's office is not, in my opinion, realistic or healthy.

Humans can be weird and crazy critters at times. Sex seems to be the stimulus for much of this craziness. I always wondered, for instance, whether anybody enjoys ballet for the dance or for the skimpily clad performers. Or is it just me?

Who needs a creepy "Purity Ball" when your Daddy owns a shotgun? :D

"The incidence of pathological lying among atheists is rather high."

The incidence of child molestation by people named Just Think is rather high.

If a PURITY BALL is creepy what about its predecessor- the DEB BALL or COMING OUT PARTY-

"A debutante (or deb) (from the French débutante, "female beginner") is a young lady from an aristocratic or upper class family who has reached the age of maturity, and as a new adult, is introduced to society at a formal presentation known as her "debut" or "coming out" (now you know where gay men borrowed the phrase).

Originally, it meant the young woman was eligible for marriage, and part of the purpose was to display her to eligible bachelors and their families with a view to marriage within a select upper class circle."

steveco- try again. you lack originality and are as stale as a three day old loaf of bread..

tara:
If a PURITY BALL is creepy what about its predecessor- the DEB BALL or COMING OUT PARTY-

"A debutante (or deb) (from the French débutante, "female beginner") is a young lady from an aristocratic or upper class family who has reached the age of maturity, and as a new adult, is introduced to society at a formal presentation known as her "debut" or "coming out" (now you know where gay men borrowed the phrase).

Originally, it meant the young woman was eligible for marriage, and part of the purpose was to display her to eligible bachelors and their families with a view to marriage within a select upper class circle."

--------------------------------------------------
I have a significant ick reflex with anything that smacks of women as property. My mom didn't understand why I didn't want my dad to give me away at my wedding. It seemed pretty obvious to me - I am not his to give, nor did my wedding result in my husband owning me.

Here is another example of religion doing strange things to girls and women that infers they are property of men and must be dominated by men.

There are so many entities that oppress women - even when the oppression is deemed well meaning - that it would be hard to have a truly liberated woman in our society. Unequal before man and God should be America's motto.

From an underpaid full time working mother who is the primary breadwinner for my intact and Christian family

Very weird obsession on virginity. What planet are these parents from?

I wonder what they have to say about masturbation? (Is it still linked to blindness and hairy palms?)

The parents are screwing-up their daughter's heads so badly, they will never be able to function as independent, rational adults or maintain a normal relationship.

How much of this is Crawford values oozing into American culture like guck into a tampon?

At the Republican National Convention in Minneapolis-St. Paul the Republicans will be setting up kiosks at the airport to sell their new invention- the Republican chastity belt: a chastity belt for the anus.

Women who will be in Minneapolis during the convention are advised to wear the Christian burqa and parents are advised to keep their children at least 500 feet away from any Republican.

Claire Hoffman exposes a frightening aspect of American culture which was never truly recognized for what it was during the Bush years, even though we had seen this type of sexism earlier under Jeb. In a liberated and liberal society there would probably be more abstinence than in prude nation. No chastity belt required!

Uh, if you don't like the idea of their "purity ball", how about just not attending.

You people typify one of America's greatest problems. You wish to force you values (or lack thereof) on others.

If you disagree THEN JUST DON'T GO!

In the photo section of the NY Times article, there is an image of Lt. Col. Terry Lee in his Air Force uniform.

I wonder if he contributed to the intolerance as described in this article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/22/AR2005062200598.html

I agree with the "ick" factor -- and the "what the hell??" factor, as well as the "this is decidedly creepy" factor. The exhibition by grown men of this sort of concentrated attention on their daughters' sexual ignorance is unsettling, to say the least. Yes, it IS much better for girls to wait until they're physically and emotionally mature before making love, yes. But the long-term effects of this sort of paternal fixation, are likely to be very unfortunate. Nurturing a public fetish about hymens is not healthy for either of them.

And yes, to reply to an earlier comment, religious fundamentalists do have high rates of incest and weak-victim rape. It's a question of power, you see. If a fundamentalist male wants something, God obviously intended him to have it, so obtaining sexual satisfaction and forcing young, weak, or elderly people to acquiesce to him can be justified because it's all just part of God's Plan. At least, that's how they justify it to themselves.

Finally, as I think back on some of the sanctimonious little church-going hypocrites I knew who were balling their boyfriends in the parking lot, I wonder -- how many of those unfortunate Daddy's Little Girls were actually virginal?

I agree with the "ick" factor -- and the "what the hell??" factor, as well as the "this is decidedly creepy" factor. The exhibition by grown men of this sort of concentrated attention on their daughters' sexual ignorance is unsettling, to say the least. Yes, it IS much better for girls to wait until they're physically and emotionally mature before making love, yes. But the long-term effects of this sort of paternal fixation, are likely to be very unfortunate. Nurturing a public fetish about hymens is not healthy for either of them.

And yes, to reply to an earlier comment, religious fundamentalists do have high rates of incest and weak-victim rape. It's a question of power, you see. If a fundamentalist male wants something, God obviously intended him to have it, so obtaining sexual satisfaction and forcing young, weak, or elderly people to acquiesce to him can be justified because it's all just part of God's Plan. At least, that's how they justify it to themselves.

Finally, as I think back on some of the sanctimonious little church-going hypocrites I knew who were balling their boyfriends in the parking lot, I wonder -- how many of those unfortunate Daddy's Little Girls were actually virginal?

It's no different than the parents who bring their kids out for pro-abortion rallies. Parents are allowed to try to instill their values in their children. At least until the California Supreme Court redefines the parent-child relationship.

"AG:

And yes, to reply to an earlier comment, religious fundamentalists do have high rates of incest and weak-victim rape. It's a question of power, you see. If a fundamentalist male wants something, God obviously intended him to have it, so obtaining sexual satisfaction and forcing young, weak, or elderly people to acquiesce to him can be justified because it's all just part of God's Plan. At least, that's how they justify it to themselves."

---------------------------------

Can you provide any backup for these strange assertions? Or is this just another intolerant liberal who feels the need to demonize large groups of people for who don't share their narrow political and religious views?

I wonder how it would be if mothers held a purity ball for their sons? Would it seem a little creepy if the sons were dressed in tuxes and the mothers in ball gowns, the mother's promised to be faithful etc etc.?

all i needed to read was "solipsistic" to find this no more than another intelligencia pronouncement, confirming the secural death-grip that strangles Western post-Christian society. Bye-bye ... in 20-30 years the West will be third world. Who knows, maybe a bunch of those girls may have clung to their Dad's desperate attempt to lure them away from the American Idol, Girls Gone Wild, liberal pak-o-crap, and may actually have intact families with non-promiscuous children, living away from the gliterati-and-fame-obsessed tv-junkies that the public school system seems to turn out as "edumucated." God has a great view of this whole scene ... too bad the WP columnists choose to argue against it rather than take it at face value ... oh, BTW, it's called the Bible. Interesting read ...

Is it just the girls who have to remain "pure" -- can the boys have all the fun they want with the girls whose daddy's don't take them to the Ball? Or do they have some sort of hunting ritual with their Moms?

There's everything right with wanted to instill values in your daughter but nothing about this is right. Nothing about this is empowering -- in fact, it doesn't teach a girl self respect and the strength to say, "No" -- instead, it sends the message that a man will tell her when it is okay to be sexual active. After all, this is a father-daughter dance...where's Mom in all this-- the one more likely to be able to talk to her daughter about sensitive issues, especially at this age. And the key thing . This is what I call devolution & creepy. THey want simplistic answers as a way to deal with the difficulties of being a parent in this world.

Said Candide:

The incidence of incest among evangelicals is rather high.

May 21, 2008 12:44 PM

---- Provide verifiable reference

---- Your religious affiliation or lack of it

---- State motivation for planting misinformation

"Father - Daughter - Purity - Ball" gives rise to the following misconceptions:

--- The father as the guardian of a young woman's virginity

--- The father as the best person to provide a woman sex education and impart moral values concerning sexual activity

--- A ball is a social event which was once used by young singles to meet their partners. A father's role in an activity which serves more than one purpose leads to an ambiguity in interpretation. (Think Freud & Oedipus Complex)

Suggested solution

--- Let fathers be responsible for the sex education of sons and males seeking to be good role models

--- Let fathers encourage sons and males to be responsible in dealing with and training their sex instinct and to consider the short, medium and long term consequences of irresponsibility in the area on women and society - e.g. broken hearts, STD, unwanted pregnancies, abortions (which is denying the right of life to an innocent third party, no matter how one may choose to rationalize it by redefining when an embryo or fetus deserves to be referred to as a developing human), the beginning or continuation of a poverty cycle for those in the lower social strata and failed chances to pursue education for those in the better social groups, easy divorce, suffering to children in single parent homes, lonely middle aged and older women...in short the emotional, medical and social consequences of sex.

--- Let mothers take the lead in teaching their daughters (and other young women) the value of dealing responsibly with their sex instinct, which is more than using contraception to protect from STD and unwanted pregnancies. Encourage young women to read up about sexuality, the real negative consequences of wrong use of the instinct; to learn about their own sexual drives and how to be in control of their bodies, develop values that does not hurt them or another...

The two previous posts under Anonymous were from me.

These are difficult questions, and once more we are going to see the usual battle between liberals who have NO values (in the domain of sex) and Bible thumping conservatives who are living in (the first half of) the 20th century. Hey, at least it sells newspapers, and we can all have the illusion that we are doing some thinking!

Common sense and the ability to see both sides of an issue are in short supply. America has become like (the supposed Gerald Ford) who could not walk and chew gum at the same time.

Instead of liberals and conservatives battling each other, how about a respectful dialogue?

Curious said:
"Is it just the girls who have to remain "pure" -- can the boys have all the fun they want with the girls whose daddy's don't take them to the Ball? Or do they have some sort of hunting ritual with their Moms? "

I believe boys don't get pregnant. So there might be a reason to accept some difference. Actually I do agree with you that boys should also be moral in their sexual behavior.

But we can say that without having to pretend that boys and girls are the same - they aren't, are they?

After reading some of the comments, I shake my head in wonder because either some of the people here do not have children/daughters, or they are willfully ignoring some of the things within our society that are with no question, far worse than this...but then readily accepted by most.

First, the insinuation of this article and some of the comments is that the father does not or should not have a say in the sexual education or moral development of their daughters. That is just not true and at the least, the wrong mentality to have. To be frank, it is a LACK of fathers having a verbal or active roll in their daughter's development that has allowed naive women to enter the world and then be increasingly manipulated and taken advantage of by other men or seedy individuals in adult film or worse.

Just like in other areas in life, the best knowledge expert about a particular situation or group will be a person who is part of or was once part of that group. Men know what men are capable of. Men know what men will say to get their way. Men know what men will do to get their way. They know what works. They know the game. Common sense would dictate that you use that as a resource or a positive influence instead of trying to find a taboo in it.

Second, many here are assuming that the mother is not involved in the decision for the father to go to this ball with their daughters. I highly doubt that this is the case.

Finally, let's be for real here. A father was once young and chasing skirts and a mother was once a willing participant of that game. Any parent who believes that their sons and daughters will be innocent little children with no raging hormones is kidding themselves. This is about knowledge, awareness, and the willingness to engage in a frank discussion about uncomfortable subjects.

As a father (and not a very big religious one at that), I commend these fathers for taking an active role in what most men would just leave to the women to handle. This isn't about control...this is about EMPOWERMENT!

it's encouraging to know there are social events and parental efforts encouraging children to be careful and restrain sexual impulses, but I resent the implication running through these comments that liberals are sexual libertines or predators. The Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints (Mormon Fundamentalists) charged with keeping multiple underage wives and even raping underage girls, are certainly not liberals. Most parents I know--liberal or conservative--are deeply concerned about the social turmoil and changing values that seem to threaten our children's health and welfare. Love and caring do not belong exclusively to any single political or socioeconomic group. It is up to us as parents, to teach our children by word and example, and then we can be confident they will make good choices.

It's encouraging to know there are social events and parental efforts encouraging children to be careful and restrain sexual impulses, but I resent the implication running through these comments that liberals are sexual libertines or predators. The Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints (Mormon Fundamentalists) charged with keeping multiple underage wives and even raping underage girls, are certainly not liberals. Most parents I know--liberal or conservative--are deeply concerned about the social turmoil and changing values that seem to threaten our children's health and welfare. Love and caring do not belong exclusively to any single political or socioeconomic group. It is up to us as parents, to teach our children by word and example, and then we can be confident they will make good choices.

This is positively feudal. YUCK! People are sexual animals. All this my daughter is a virgin ya ya ya is absolutely weird; I almost can't find the words to express myself. If parents would teach their children that their bodies are a sacred gift and their sexuality is normal and sharing the gift is not a trivial thing, you might see a shift. The demonizing of natural human desire to procreate is amazing and very sad. I swear I thought we'd gotten over this. But then I remember all the advertisements that flaunt sexuality all over the place and objectify women and turn the brain into mush.

As idiotic as these events are, the subtext to this commentary is even worse; i.e., that fathers who try to impart their faith to their daughters are "controlling."

That's bull. And anyone who doesn't think society is a mess when it comes to sexuality isn't reading the newspapers every day.

I just have three questions:

Where are the Purity Balls for boys?

Why don't the mothers get keys too?

How can anyone say that this doesn't appear to be an example of blantant sexism?????

I'm about as agnostic as they come, but I truly think that Claire, as well as most of the bloggers here, are completely overreacting. The bottom line, teenage girls do not need to be having sex, and the fact that the peanut gallery here seems to think they need to be free from parental pressure on this issue is a big part of the problem. Girls that have a close, loving relationship with their fathers are more likely to listen to them. And on this particular issue, what dad has to say is particularly powerful because what alot of sexually active teenage girls are looking for is the love and closeness with a male figure that they are not getting from their father. So despite the feminist ranting on this blog, on this issue dad is particularly important. If dad and daughter come to an agreement on this issue and decide to celebrate it publicly with other like minded people, fine. It is an impotant discussion, it should take place, and parents should express a strong opinion on the issue. Bottom line, this is how you tell your daughter that her health, behavior, and emotional well-being are important to you. Respect for privacy and your child's space is something an intelligent parent reserves for their child's twenties, when they are no longer living under your roof! And yes Claire, if dad is cheating on mom and his daughter finds out that will affect her attitude about having integrity in her sexual relationships, at the very least it will have a dramatic impact on her ability to trust men and have commited relationships.

I'm a complete secularist, but I'm willing to admit when someone with a different mindset is on to something. Getting dad involved in talking about sex with his daughter, as opposed to avoiding the issue which has been the parental model for generations, is a good thing.

Gals, ya simply gotta live with the vagina God gave you. That is the breaks, not sexism. Deal with the real; if ya play, ya pay.

Mindypoo, it is sexist and they should have these for the teenage boys as well. But it's not the boys whose futures are typically wrecked by teenage pregnancy. The burden of paying child support compared to actually being responsible for raising a child is miniscule. So maybe there is a practical slant here as well.

I would not honestly have a great problem with he "Purity Ball" if it was coed. If pre-martial sex is such a benefit to a person's quality of relationships (as implied by the NYT article) then males, the other half of the relationship, should be held accountable to the same standards.

Oh my, fathers trying to help their daughters avoid the disease, emotional hardship, and tragedy of today's "hook up" culture! Oh, and then they take a pledge to be better fathers themselves and even, get this, not cheat on their wives. The horror!

when I first heard "purity ball" I actually thought it was a physical object that a young girl kept near or in, her vagina.

It is creepy that people are so controlling of other people's sexuality and so overly focused on it.

"and then they take a pledge to be better fathers themselves and even, get this, not cheat on their wives."

Why the *need* to pledge not to cheat?

As if, without the pledge, they would cheat?
or admitting they have cheated?

So, these middle-aged guys wait until their daughters are teen-agers before taking a vow not to cheat on their wives?

Isn't that one of the founding principles of marriage to begin with?

No matter the goodness of any underlying motivation, a father-daughter purity ball is just plain creepy in a way that only Christians can be creepy.

Also, many of these girls, when they hit college, or are finally liberated from their parent's homes, will party like crazy. Oh the Catholic girls I've known.

These Purity Balls and similar events seem tremendously reactionary to me. They are designed deliberately to mirror the public milestones in a young girl's life that are USUALLY indicative of an increase in maturity and independence (like the senior prom or a wedding ceremony).

They mirror these events, but the serve the opposite purpose. They are designed to encourage a young adult, who really SHOULD be starting to take responsibility for her own actions and decisions in preparation for adulthood, to surrender that responsibility in a public commitment of dependency and submission. Why is it that these parents feel that they cannot rely on 14 or 15 years of stewardship and education to help their daughters make responsible decisions? Why does it require a dance and a gift to seal the deal?

Secondly, it is VERY WEIRD that the young woman's father steps into the role typically filled by a suitor in these landmark events. Big dances are supposed to be a chance for girls to mingle with boys their own age under supervision. What do they gain by showing up on the arm of their own father? And what is that specter SUPPOSED to make us think?

Also, rings are often bestowed in these ceremonies (or keys, evidently, which seems even worse) - a physical reminder that the daugher's sexuality is promised to the father until he transfers it to a husband in a wedding ceremony. This is paranoid patriarchal control at its worst. The ring-thing seems designed to mirror the exchange of rings at a wedding, but there is no exchange. Just a metaphorical bond that transfers the sexuality of the daughter to the fathers possession.

At best, these things are bizarre, unhealthy, and counter-productive to the process of parenting (for which the MAIN goal should be preparation for adulthood). At worst, they are quasi-sexual, paternalistic, patriarchal drives by fathers to gain possession and control over the sexuality of their own daughters.

The thought sickens me.

So Kuato, do you normally refuse to attend weddings because the father gives away the bride (filling in for the suitor)?

Why is the blog author and most of the respondents here sexualizing the role of the father whenever he is called on to take a public stand with regards to his daughter's sexual behavior? The idea seems to be that a father can't publically acknowledge his daughter's sexuality without there being some kind of incestuous component. This is actually much wierder to me than the idea of a purity ball.

i'm sooo mad! why are there no purity ball's for the sons - with the moms? helloo i'm soo mad right not - patriarchal. domination. submission. double standard. ladies - say enough is enough!

people wake up! the clock is ticking backwards. I'm sooo upset! why are there no so-called 'purity balls' for the sons - with the moms? Oh yea - cos this whole thing is patriarchal. it's about domination. submission. double standards. like it has always been. ladies - say enough is enough!

I am so upset about this.

Why didn't I think of it! Talk about a money maker. Not only the Purity Ball itself. You've got the possibility of T-shirts, bumper stickers, back packs, inspirational videos, etc. You could work in an animated series on television, a series of dvds with celebrity endorsements and copyrighted songs (who knows, Debbie Gibson or Pat Boone could make a comeback.)

One could go international - The Japanese would eat this up.

Claire-

You have been so generous in sharing the stories of your childhood with the readers here.

Your parents were into TM. You learned to meditate when you were four years old. You went to a private school that focused almost solely on the Maharishi's teachings. You were taught to believe that the Maharishi was a flawless being, god-like, with teachings that must be studied and lived fervently.

Claire- I hope you understand when I say:

THAT IS ODD- REALLY REALLY ODD.

You'd have to have your head in the sand not to find this downright creepy. It almost has undertones of incest.

I would never want to scar a child like this.

Well Claire- You find Purity Balls odd and we already know you never got the chance to debut..

BUT-

Chanting of your obediance to the holy tradition while a new "initiate" carries an offering of fruit, a white handkerchief, and fresh flowers for ritualized placement upon an altar during a "private" meditation instruction.

Please explain which is creepier?

Anonymous:

Well Claire- You find Purity Balls odd and we already know you never got the chance to debut..

BUT-

Chanting of your obediance to the holy tradition while a new "initiate" carries an offering of fruit, a white handkerchief, and fresh flowers for ritualized placement upon an altar during a "private" meditation instruction.

Please explain which is creepier?

----------------------------

I guarantee that the past state of Claire's "purity" is no of your business. (And none of her father's either.)

As for her "rituals", your just speculating. And even if you're not, I doubt that neither the fruit, the flowers nor the handkerchief were traumatized in any way. :)

But Purity Balls? Still definitely rank as very creepy, on the creepy scale.

My apologies if my earlier comment about a father not being neither the best person to act as guardian of a young woman's virginity nor the best person to impart sex education to the daughter, created a misunderstanding and mistakenly seemed to undermine the genuine concern of loving fathers who are prepared to do anything to help their daughters, even attend a "Purity Ball" with their daughters, if it helped as is supposed.

As anyone else, my own perspective on this issue is colored by the culture in which I was raised (I was an adult of twenty eight when I left India), my own reflections on the issue based on the knowledge I have acquired or imbibed as a result of having lived in the Western culture since leaving India. Just as in the Indian culture, my understanding is that in traditional societies, especially Asian, it is women who impart sex education to young women. It is taboo to discuss sex generally, and discussion of sex between members of the opposite sex would be mostly restricted between married partners. Male members of the family are expected to protect the honor of the woman and the family when a male outsider violates the sexual boundary of a woman, and such protection could include forcing the male to marry the woman (wherever applicable), seek justice or take revenge etc.

In this day and age, not even in conservative societies of Asia is it possible for parents to police the sex life of their children, leave alone be guardians of the virginity of young women. It makes little sense for parents to appoint themselves guardians even symbolically. The goal should be to educate the young early enough to acquire knowledge, develop healthy values, learn to treat their bodies as precious (for young women it means not to allow men to use their bodies as sex toilets, nor for them to use their sexuality as an ego weapon to control and manipulate men) and look upon sex as a sacred expression of deep love which goes with respect and commitment. Learn to tame their sex instinct is vital in order to live by the values one accepts as being the best for oneself, for children and the welfare of the society as a whole.

Human history has seen matriarchal societies come and go, patriarchal societies which held sway for most of human history and still do in some parts of the world, we have societies where machos are in control and women who help breed and condition them, we are living through the age of wild men and wild women... What's next? It is up to us to determine the course and define our destiny.

Appointing fathers the guardians of a young woman's virginity is definitely not the way to teach women to be responsible for their own bodies. Wild women are not about to turn mild because they attended a "Purity Ball" with their fathers. Without creating even a remote symbolism of an Electra Complex, it is important to teach young women to be their own adult person and be responsible for their own bodies and live in accordance with healthy values.

For a healthy society we need neither power crazy macho-men nor power crazy, manipulative macho-women. We need neither wild men hunters nor seductive wild women who believe we ought to imitate the bonobo-apes in their sexual behavior as closely as possible. We need strong men and women who understand the real meaning of love between a man and woman, the wisdom of religions that provides for lifelong companionships and sexual expression for everyone in stable societies that provides the best environment for children; men and women who appreciate the value of stable families and are concerned about the welfare of children who do not ask to be born and yet are the innocent third parties of sexual activity between a man and woman.

When such a generation of men and women reach old age we shall have an abundance of wise men and women who are able to guide the young based on reason and their life experience. Until now we have access to wisdom only from those who lived by the rules of the teachings of religions, and those who reject religions throw out the wisdom as well without ever giving a serious thought to the value of rules for society that stem from religious wisdom.

Test the religious teachings as they apply to society, burn them in the fire of purity of intent, benefit to society, applicability in the present age and skeptics, especially the religion bashing variety "New Atheists" or more correctly, anti-theists, would be alarmed at what they are crusading to crush.

CANDIDE posted thus on Eboo Patel's blog Interfaith Work fit for a Queen:

On place to begin in explaining Islam and Muslims is this: the Jesus found in the Koran is a lot closer to the real Jesus than the Jesus of the Gospels. The real Jesus can be found by examining his earliest followers led by his brother James the Just. For them Jesus was a man, not a divine being, he was the True Prophet sent by God to purge Judaism of corruption. This Jesus was forgotten by Paul and the gentiles who fashioned a Jesus modeled after Hellenistic god-men. Islam inherited the Jewish Christian (Ebionite)view of Jesus more than any other group. The Koran is more right about Jesus than Christians can imagine.

May 22, 2008 2:45 PM

--- Anti-Catholic and anti-Evangelical (i.e. anti-Christian)comments posted by Muslim blogger, Candide serves merely to undermine the interfaith work done by Muslims like Eboo Patel and the Jordan Queen Rania. Too bad!

why do people get sp upset and pretend to care so much about how others choose to raise their children?
who says abstinence is not a valid detterant to stds, unwanted pregnancies which result in nwanted human beings- or a death sentence form AIDS-

children look to us to guide them-
a father giving postive direction and protection to his daughter is sick?

as opposed to what?

as if this is one lone incident?
and the assumption is that if a father chooses to protect his daughters sexuality- that is a bad thing?

how does anyone here know what conversations take place?

isnt it a great deal better to deal with a subject and celebrate abstinence as a choice?
postive reinforcement is not a bad thing- its a good thing.

with all of the really tragic and horrible things that happen in the world- claire's stomach churns at this?

go visit an AIDS hospice claire- and vring something back worthy of your stomach turning-
what a melodramatic piece-

i watched an hour long 'expose' about these balls, and while i wouldnt necessarily want to have partaken-
BUT i dont feel qualified to try and tear apart those that do-

just because someones choice is different than yours doesnt mean theres something wrong with them or the choice-

here is a link to the RAPEX referred to earlier by teresa-
i found it fascinating-
http://www.rapestop.net/

"who says abstinence is not a valid detterant to stds, unwanted pregnancies which result in nwanted human beings- or a death sentence form AIDS-"

Peer-reviewed studies? A rise in teen-pregnancy, STDs, and sexual activity wherever they institute abstinence-only education?

If we'd listened to the beliefs of people who thought AIDS was a 'death sentence' against 'sinners,' and held up the research and education on it before it got big in America, ...it still would be.

Information from the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry on

'Talking To Your Kids About Sex '

In talking with your child or adolescent, it is helpful to:

* Encourage your child to talk and ask questions.

* Maintain a calm and non-critical atmosphere for discussions.

* Use words that are understandable and comfortable.

* Try to determine your child's level of knowledge and understanding.

* Keep your sense of humor and don't be afraid to talk about your own discomfort.

* Relate sex to love, intimacy, caring, and respect for oneself and one's partner.

* Be open in sharing your values and concerns.
* Discuss the importance of responsibility for choices and decisions.

* Help your child to consider the pros and cons of choices.

By developing open, honest and ongoing communication about responsibility, sex, and choice, parents can help their youngsters learn about sex in a healthy and positive manner.

http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/talking_to_your_kids_about_sex

paganplace-

why be so extreme? it doesnt have to be either/or
abstinence can be taught through example- as can any responsible behavior-

who said anything about abstinence only-
certainly not me-

the same holds true for the opposite extreme-

and who mentioned 'sinners"

are you seriously suggesting that abstinence does not stop stds- or that most people dont consider AIDS ( i didnt say hiv+- you see there's a BIG difference) a death sentence??

ive been in the company of PWA's, and i never saw any respond to the diagnosis of AIDS with delight-
ive seen alot of people die from that disease- and ive certainly heard alot of regret over past activities -

its just biology- viruses dont make judgements based on religion, or "sinners"- they are a result of an action-
blood infection or transmission of fluids-

to quote myself-
"isnt it a great deal better to deal with a subject and celebrate abstinence as a choice?
postive reinforcement is not a bad thing- its a good thing."

and this-

"just because someones choice is different than yours doesnt mean theres something wrong with them or the choice-"

are you suggesting that choices should be removed? and replaced by your own ideology?

no thanks, i'll stick with offering choices to people- not forcing my own philosophy on them
but allowing people a range of options instead of trying to control them

How very sad that our society is at the point where a father protecting his daughter is called creepy!

We don't let kids drink until they turn 21. We don't let kids vote until they're 18. Why? The inference is that they're emotionally immature and incapable of logically assessing all of the variables and making a rational decision. Now why do you think a father stepping in and laying down a similar "law" is a bad thing?

Those who behave like animals deserve what they get from it: STDs and unwanted pregnancies

i was with you until you called our kids animals, judged, found them guilty, and deserving of stds-unwanted pregnancy-

if we go by that criteria- then we are all guilty- you and i -included-

while we humans have the sex act in common with animals- there are no consciously celibate animals.
(obviously some people choose that way)
our consciousness is our difference.

Melanie wrote:

“How very sad that our society is at the point where a father protecting his daughter is called creepy!

We don't let kids drink until they turn 21. We don't let kids vote until they're 18. Why? The inference is that they're emotionally immature and incapable of logically assessing all of the variables and making a rational decision. Now why do you think a father stepping in and laying down a similar "law" is a bad thing?”

Melanie, I definitely hope that you did not interpret my comment as considering a father’s interest in his daughter’s purity as being creepy!
You mention drinking and voting as comparison. I’m sure you agree that it would not do much good if the father and/or mother made a pledge not to drink, smoke or take drugs on behalf of their children. While it helps immensely when parents are good role models and impart good values to their children, the ultimate responsibility must rest with the child. Sexual activity is after all an adult activity, an activity in which a person leaves their childhood behind, detaches from their parents to become one flesh with another sexually adult person, an activity which religions sanction only within marriage and even in religion clearly signifies a growing up and breaking with childhood clinging to parents to take on responsibility of becoming parents themselves. As to indulging in sexual activity before marriage, sex being such a powerful instinct, even the greatest virtue in the parent does not prevent a child from misusing its free will to seek out opportunities or misuse those that come its way, if it chose to do so. Sexual purity is lost giving in to one temptation at a time and nobody else can tackle a temptation for somebody else, not even the most loving father, leave alone generations in advance. Only the grace of God can help each one deal with the temptations of the flesh as one is exposed to it, one temptation at a time…

The Pledge of the Purity Ball:

I, (daughter’s name)’s father, choose and before God to cover my daughter as her authority and protection in the area of purity. I will be pure in my own life as a man, husband and father. I will be a man of integrity and accountability as I lead, guide and pray over my daughter and my family as the high priest in my home. This covering will be used by God to influence generations to come.

A daughter’s comment:

"As all the dads stood to read the covenant over their daughters, I felt the power of those words sink right into my heart. My father pledged to protect me and promised to lead a life of integrity and purity for me. He signed his name and I signed as a witness to his words. And as he escorted me to the dance floor I felt empowered by his promise to spend the rest of his life warring for my heart through his life of purity. And I knew my life would never be the same..."

In the Catholic tradition, young women are constantly reminded to look to Mother Mary as a model of chastity and obedience to God’s will. Maybe if the young Christian women, on attaining menarche, made a pledge to look to Mother Mary as a role model of chastity, asking God the Father and Jesus Christ, Lord and Saviour acting through the power of the Holy Spirit to help guard their sexual purity until marriage/true committed love… and if mothers were equally involved in educating their sons and daughters about sexual purity and responsibility being the best role models they could possibly be… teaching children about the importance of focusing on the higher human need for true love and lifelong companionship…

Of course it goes without saying that anyway that helps children is to be recommended and applauded.

Abstinence-only sex education which excludes comprehensive information about all areas of sex and its consequences (among others STD and unwanted pregnancies)is bound to leave children with less resources to deal with their sex instinct and to take full responsibility for the choices they make. Compounding sex before marriage emotional/moral issues with STD and unwanted pregnancies due to ignorance about safe sex does not help anybody. Using ignorance (withholding information about safe sex etc) as means to force virtue is counter-productive. Let the young make their moral decisions based on the wisdom acquired through knowledge and not based on a morality that is forced on them which encourages ignorance.

again, why be so extreme- why assume teaching our children responsible behavior through our own actions automatically means we teach them nothing else-

children who are ignorant of the basic functions of their bodies become adults who are ignorant- and one doesnt stop getting std's, or become HIV+ or have unwanted pregnancies just because one magically reaches adulthood-

your posts contradict each other-

first you propose total chastity and following mary- and in the second you criticize your own proposal!

it doesnt have to be either/or- one can educate their children on many levels-

one can complement ans supplement the other-

Victoria, I take it that your post was addressed to me. If you had read my comments on the topic of sex and religion on several threads you would have known that my thoughts on the topic has not changed - i.e. a comprehensive sex education, training to tame the sex instinct and realistic solutions to the problem of late marriages and divorces. I made it a point to emphasize that while it is ideal to expect and encourage the highest moral, one must also be adequately prepared to minimize damage for situations when the highest ideal is not lived out - hence contraception to prevent STD and unwanted pregnancy, and legal abortion to protect the life of the mother if she chooses to go ahead with aborting the child even after being given sufficient education against it, including an opportunity to give up the child for adoption.

This discussion is however about the Purity Ball and of fathers taking on the role of guardians in maintaining the sexual purity of their daughters. I was critical about that and went on to add that my opinion is biased by my cultural upbringing where women are expected to impart sex education to women. For me as an Indian woman the idea of dancing with my father is unthinkable, leave alone the idea of my father appointing himself guardian of my virginity. On realizing that in the Western culture it is normal for daughters to dance with their fathers and that it would be normal for daughters to discuss sexual issues with their father, I retracted my initial skepticism about purity ball and the role of a pledge signed by fathers, adopting the motto: Anything that helps...

You might find it helpful to read:

Five Years of Abstinence-Only-Until-Marriage Education: Assessing the Impact

By Debra Hauser, MPH, Vice President, Advocates for Youth

I mentioned the Catholic tradition of looking to Mother Mary as role model of chastity for women because I think it makes more sense than making any parent the role model, for a fallible parent could confuse a child and make it stumble if it were to look to the parent alone. Besides heavenly role models can be relied upon to be an inspiration even when the parents are out of sight. Purity Ball I understand is an initiative from the Evangelicals, so I thought it might be a good idea to share an idea of the Catholic Church in this connection.

i honestly dont know any fathers that discuss sexual issues with their daughters-
proposing absinence is not discussing sexual issues-
most fathers i know leave those discussions to the mother-
maybe its different down under but i doubt men are that different-

why would you suggest i read a book about 5 years of celibacy when you know i was a celibate for 2 decades?

i love the sanctimony of the inexperienced-

its good you retracted your intital skepticism-

replacing parents as role models for mary is just- well- lets just say
i never heard this philosophy from a catholic POV before-