Comments (1254)

Posted on May 23, 2008 11:26

J:
To Anonymous,

"Please don't drag to somewhere else,

Luke 17:34 KJV Bible
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Tell me what's 'two men in one bed' doing there, studying scriptures?"

Discussing scriptures??? Did Like 17:34 say that; I missed that part. However, if they were studying scriptures then they wouldn't have been in bed together, now would they? Because obviously they didn’t take Romans 1:21-31 seriously.

Romans 1:21-32 (NIV)
(21)For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. (22)Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools (23)and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

(24)Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. (25)They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
(26)Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. (27)In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

(28)Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. (29)They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, (30)slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; (31)they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. (32)Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

But their actions are between them and God, not me and you, or anyone else. Now tell me how did your beer and condom go this past Friday night?

To Anonymous,

Luke 17:34 KJV Bible
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

I am too fool to wonder what's 'two men in one bed' doing there, discussing scriptures?:)

Please don't drag it too far.

To Anonymous,

Please don't drag to somewhere else,

Luke 17:34 KJV Bible
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

Tell me what's 'two men in one bed' doing there, studying scriptures?

J. you are a fool to believe that God's supports and sanction "homosexuality" and obviously do not know you bible or the history of its forthcoming events. Nowhere in scripture does God ever state that "homosexuality" is anything other than "sin" and an abomination to him where he will judge them to hell if they do not stop the sin of homosexuality.

Luke 17:34 refers to the Second Advent not the rapture. The whole picture is the destruction of "many" at Armageddon when Christ comes to make the carcases for the birds of the heaven to eat. See Matthew 24:27-28, Rev. 19 17:21, Ezek. 39:17-21.

Although this text is generally used of the rapture when the "saints" of God are caught up in the air and taken to heaven here it is connected with the "second advent" when those caught up in the air will be the ones destroyed, not as the ones caught up in the air to meet the Lord here and there in the rapture.

Just like the flood took "them all away" or destroyed people (Matthew 24:38, Luke 17:27, 29) so shall also the second advent of Christ destroy many and make the dead bodies for the fowls of heaven to eat fulfilling Matthew 24:27-28, Luke 17:34-37, Rev. 19:17-21, and Ezek. 39:17-21.

The passage really pictures the mobilization of the nations to Armageddon where they will be destroyed by Christ and the armies of heaven at the Second Advent. (Zech. 14:1-5 and Rev. 9: 11-21)

The following passage is from Luke 17:34, from the words of Jesus about homosexual, clearly homosexual can also go to heaven and chosen by God.

Luke 17:34 KJV Bible
I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

So now you all know where Jesus stands on this issue, God picks heart and mind of men, not by sex.

So, for those condemning peoples to read your Bible, and learn from your Lord God. Maybe bring this verse to your anti-gay pastors and brothers and sisters.

Nonsense, Randy: there's nothing 'coercive' about the state treating all marriages as *legally* equivalent. As far as the courts are concerned, this is a matter of legal fairness and equal protection under the law.

If you choose to call other people 'immoral,' that's your religious opinion, not what this court ruling is even about. No one is making you believe anything, but there's a huge legal difference, even with the best state civil unions laws. Such civil unions don't protect a couple when out of state interests are involved, as the Full Faith and Credit clause is supposed to guarantee and in fact are easily-targeted for discriminatory practices.

Civil unions are great, and more palatable to some, but they aren't equal: it's the *anti-gay* agenda that wants to coerce people, through the very real effects of these injustices. Not everyone shares your religious belief about them. Not even all Christian churches. That agenda is shown where anti-gay laws are passed where they outlaw even private legal contracts that *might* confer some of the benefits of civil marriage.

In the courts, it's simply unconstitutional to deny equal rights to same-sex couples. That's a matter of justice and the law, not what some would like to believe about their fellow Americans.

Whether on purpose or oversight, most have missed the point.

In California, civil unions already provide virtually all of the same legal rights that are conferred
by marriage.

Nor is the issue separation of church and state or of the state from your private life.
The state has long been deeply involved with both. In fact, it is precisely this involvement
in the form of social engineering that is at issue here. Like all political groups, the gay community wants to use government's involvement to advance its agenda.

In our current political environment, all political groups seek to employ the coercive power of government to advance their political agendas. In this case, the gay agenda is to coerce all into accepting their lifestyle as morally equivalent to the most religious straight one - and government just happens to be the element of coercion in our society.

The means to achieve this end is through bastardization of language - in the notion that
calling one thing the same name as another is to render it equivalent over time and usage.

I doubt that most people give a rat's ass what gay partnerships call themselves. They simply
resent the coercion, the bastardization, and the attempted destruction of their public values
under the boot of government for any agenda, particularly one that many find unacceptable.

But, before I close this window:

"by the way, you punk chick are pretty sexy to yell out your opinion, just joking:)"

Hey, some have said I'm beautiful when I'm angry. Some even walked away without bruises after trying to trivialize what I was pissed about at the wrong time ;)

Just joking. Mostly. :)

The 'rest of the class' isn't here cause it's off the front page of the site, by now.

But ain't that the way, ...the lives of the people some claim are just 'issues' are still affected long after the bigots are done shouting Bible verses. ;)

To Paganplace,

feel so bad we use this post as a chat room:) and where the rest of class? Are they tired of shouting?

I think you somehow convinced Claire too.

by the way, you punk chick are pretty sexy to yell out your opinion, just joking:)

Now go back finish your paper

I mean, I guess for me,this is what this whole 'issue' is all about.

It's not, it should not, be an issue.

It's not about anything these people talk about, books and definitions and sanctities.

Just isn't.

Procreative plumbing or genetics or sex or words of God or Gods don't make *anyone* 'family.' Or 'Mommy.'

A small person looking at you and *calling* you that, ready or not, *that* makes you Mommy.

*Everything* changes in that kind of moment, even for some punk chick like me of the time who thought she knew everything, sending up quiet prayers, 'Great Mother, what do I do *now,*

Some will talk words of their God or what they can spin as 'Popular Will,' speak about how much better it'd be if people such as I spent our time hiding from ourselves and crawling in penitence.

Don't try to pass it off as 'goodness,' though.

You can try and hurt queer folks as much as you want, say what you will, inflict what you want, but don't call it 'good,' or expect any less than defiance to the last.

Not from someone a little girl called 'Mom.'

Cause everything changes in moments like that.

And I question those who claim they derive some benefit of 'sanctity' from the sorts of legal injustices they seek to preserve at the expense of certain families...

Is it worth it to you? Whatever you think you're getting?

Do you even *know* what you're 'defending?'

Yes, J. This is certainly about love, far more than sex. But people who try to say, 'Oh, this issue is just about some abstraction, shut up, queer people,'

...It was never about your daughter. They may mock 'Heather has Two Mommies all they want, but *don't* pretend either of those mommies don't have to fight like the proverbial lionesses as it is. Or that this doesn't matter.

It may be an abstraction to some 'righteous' 'Anti-gay people,' or self-styled 'moderates' who claim it's no big deal, but to those affected by these injustices, it is most certainly not.

Capiche?

"To me only love makes marriage valid between the couple, and I don't even care how the world look at it, because it is really a thing between 2 persons only."

Did you not notice a certain very personal example how that's not so?

Marriage is *not* just personal, and certainly not just some religious abstraction, when it comes to what some want to deny through government power.

This is about real people and real lives and real consequences, not someone's inarticulable feelings about the 'sanctity' of their straighthood or how gross the things they like to think about gay men are.

Real people. Real lives. Real laws. Real human lives, and as I stand, real kids.

To Paganplace,

To me only love makes marriage valid between the couple, and I don't even care how the world look at it, because it is really a thing between 2 persons only.

I would not feel sad about myself even the whole world don't understand or despise me, beneath the cover, or sex organ, or pleasure, or tradition... in the end, only two person got a say about it.

Sure, I'm straight. But if I am a gay, I don't even care how other say about me, but I do care about my lover may say about me.

Love and marriage, need to be tested in this world, whether m-f or m-m or w-w, thru money, pleasure, social attitude, parents' disprovable, ... whether we are straight or gay, we are all being tested in this world, because we pursue love, that is a work of miracle in this world that most people trying to accomplish, we only look and are labeled different, so what, other people judge us, aren't we all judged by someone and we all judge others too, whether in honor or shame, who cares.

I remembered Jesus said: "Ability comes from love, and love comes from faith."

If we believe something than we not sober about how other look at us, truly I don't, I don't care how my pastor, my boss, and the ladies and guys look at me for who I am, What I do, or how I do, if I'm really happy then I may share with them, but if they do not understand or accept, their problem. And I never try to feel that they must accept me.
God created the world that is so big, and my heart and mind are even wider.

And I do not even think this marriage issue is really a big issue truly, some people they are so honored that they bear such hardship because they believe something better than those who oppress them.

Maybe that burden is your crown, just like the crown of Jesus.

As long as we breathe in this world, we are oppressed and we somehow oppress others too.

When I was a boy, I care other peoples' opinion, but now I grew up, their opinions are theirs, even they yell in front my face, I don't even care, they won't waste my time and energy, the world is like my old wife / aged husband, you have to ignore her / him sometimes.

Why sober? Unless you like it, then fine, I'm happy for you.

claire, you truly are an imbecile. stop the shock tactics and hone your craft. christ, it's like reading a 12 year olds book report up in here.

Frankly, a lot of 'atheistic' types try and waltz in on this discussion in our society, buy the Abrahamic argument that 'Marriage is conferred by our religion, therefore the state should enforce it just like we say,' ...hook, line, and sinker, then claim, 'Since the Abrahamics say that, obviously marriage is all in your head, too.'

It's *not.*

And if you'd ever been stepmother to a little girl from a previously-coerced attempt at 'changing' to heterosexuality, (Yeah, gay guys end up in the army for someone to 'make a man of them,' pregnancy is often the same for women)

...If you'd *ever* had that legally-unacknowledged stepdaughter turn up lost from school, and realize you *can't* call on the police, yourself, and if the police called by the school officials that lost track of her in the first place find her first, she might end up in an orphanage...

If you'd ever turned five city blocks over like a tossed salad with *that* kind of fear gnawing at you under your rib-cage, to find your little girl,

You'd realize that civil marriage is not an abstraction.

And why I say 'boo-blessed-hoo' to those who claim it's necessary to oppress same-sex couples so they can feel some manner of 'sanctity.'

"That is why it is very easy for our high school teenagers to say that they are in love and they really believe that, that is the diamond moment of their life."

Actually, J, I kind of noticed as the AIDS scare and Christian responses set in, ....kids and others didn't actually end up eschewing responsible-but-playful-and-honest sex and sexuality:

They just felt it was obligatory to claim any hormonal rise was, cause it had to be, 'Love forever.'

A lot of unsafe sex happens cause people think, 'This time it's forever,' when actually that's just what they tell themselves to allow themselves to have sex *this time.*

In many people's minds, especially if they are taught so, *there is no other time.* All repression does is enlist boundless human creativity into rationalizing unsafe behavior, unfortunately.

That's why we need honesty and real reverence for what's going on. Not carrot-and-stick. :)

And, 'Old Geezer:'

" an old geezer:

so anyway, if you're "married" to someome, you just realize "hey we're married!" that hunk of paper is just for statistical purposes. and tax voodoo, stuff like that, and paying homage to whatever you say you believe in."

Not in the American legal system. You might realize that when your 'gay' sweetie is in the hospital and any Christian, any Christian at *all,* even ones with stated intent to coerce her against her will, can shut doors between you.

" also, it's good for manipulating people and like that. malarkey, basicly a load of mumbo jumbo. i spose it's good for making slobs take responsibility for the children they have by accident."

You've obviously never tried to live up to responsibilities for children when the state doesn't defend your right to.

This is *not* about religion.

If it *is* about religion, then kindly allow the freedom of it.

Don't waltz in and claim it doesn't matter in practical reality.

Sadly, it really does.

We're talking about apples and oranges here. Legally, marriage is a legal contract between two people, that they will share their assets. (among other legal ramifications) A clergy member is granted the power through the state government to confer that these two people are married - which is why the presiding official says, "by the power vested in me by the state of X, I now pronounce you husband and wife." This is also why you get a marriage license from the county government, and the celebrant signs off on it.

Religious organizations can reserve the right not to count two people as being married. This does not mean that they are not legally married - the church just doesn't recognize this. No church is being forced to accept same-sex marriage, just as the Catholic Church isn't forced to accept marriage between two Catholics who were previously divorced, or whatever. However, there is no valid reason for the state government to NOT recognize same-sex marriages.

The arguement has been made by anti-gay people that marriages exist primarily for procreation. In a perfect world, this would be fine. However, many children are born to and/or raised in single-parent households. It's tough for one person to raise a kid, but many people are doing just that. Other married couples, such as myself and my husband, do not have children. Is our marriage any less valid because we haven't contributed to the gene pool? What about adoption?

So, I'm 100% for the legal recognition of same-sex marriage. After all, why should us straight people be the only ones to suffer?

so anyway, if you're "married" to someome, you just realize "hey we're married!" that hunk of paper is just for statistical purposes. and tax voodoo, stuff like that, and paying homage to whatever you say you believe in. also, it's good for manipulating people and like that. malarkey, basicly a load of mumbo jumbo. i spose it's good for making slobs take responsibility for the children they have by accident.

J,

Love is out there, and you often find it when you aren't hunting it. I think sometimes people hunt love with such ferocity that they either frighten it away, or if they find it, hold it so tightly that they crush it.
And way too many people seem to have the idea that the way to fall in love is to find someone in a bar. Maybe it's just me, but I prefer to be stone cold sober when choosing a lover.

After two bad marriages - one to a man who dislocated my shoulder and threw a television at me, then claimed it my own fault for embarassinghimin front of his friends (he was so drunk he mistook a closet for the front door, and his friends took his car keys from him and gave them to me), and another who insisted after we were married his needs for my time, attention, affection, and loyalty should take priority over those of my child, I had decided that I was not interested in ever dating again.

I began pursuing activities that interested me, just for the enjoyment of participating in them. One night at a community theater audition, I was chatting with a friend and fellow amateur thespian, when I heard a voice from behind say, "You have the most striking jewelry." (I was wearing a pendant with a butterfly made of abalone). I actually brushed off the compliment, and as I was leaving later, this same guy handed me his card. It wasn't until I got to my car that I realized that he had been flirting with me. I emailed him the next day to apologize for having been brusque with him, we chatted back and forth online all that day, met for coffee the next day, and have been together ever since.

Best of luck to you.

Someone made this statement-

"**Nature is explicit. The sexual organs were made for a distinct final purpose: procreate! The pleasure that comes with it is just 'the hook' for a man and a woman to engage.**"

It is not a truthful statement.

A truthful statement related to this concept would be to state "the copulation of a male and female sex organ can result in procreation".

As I stated previously, the copulation of two male sex organs is a form of birth control, since a viable zygote would not form. Likewise, it also applies to females copulating.

Get your facts strait and do not make false assumptions. It is not just a matter of semantics.

Another false assumption being made by people in these posts is the belief that every person must only use their sex organs to procreate.

That reminds me of the chorus from that Monthy Python song about sperm:

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

http://www.taboo-breaker.org/religion/sperm.htm

Why do people make these illogical false assumptions? I believe the root is cultural in origin.

And what providence does anyone have on a person's personal affairs and utilization of another's sex organs?

Also, do not make the false assumption that the copulation of male and female sex organs is the exclusive providence of marriage. It happens without altruism. Sometimes it just happens.

To Brian Thanks!

To Paganplace,

My truthful feeling for love topic is really difficult for me to define, I mean sex is very easy to define, marriage is difficult to define,

But love, oh, I don't think love does exist in the world, I could understand and adore Romeo and Juliet, but nowadays, young people go with looks, Hollywood go for fame, politician go for the money, I would rather pick sex, for I understand, physical.

But love in world, if I could find it or be convinced the last day on earth I'll be happy.

Man-Woman or Man-Man or Woman-Woman, I admire all of them that they are the true fighters in this world that believe and work for love, or they are lucky.

For me, I fix my eye on the simple things. The most difficult thing in the world is to find love and keep believe in it.

It is easy for God to love, and define God is love, I believe four gospel.

But it is very difficult for a person to pursuit love, no to mention 2 persons fall in love. Look at all these posts on this site you may know, rarely a few know, and live in love.

That is why it is very easy for our high school teenagers to say that they are in love and they really believe that, that is the diamond moment of their life.

Then marriage, that two persons want to vow for life, but why someone else try to stop them, do they know how difficult to have two person to vow?

I am not saying they must stay together for life, but to only to have the courage to vow together, this is already too difficult for me.

Or, for homophobes still talking about 'breeding rights,' and wondering why 'God' made queers.

Short answer:

To help.

You bloody fools. :)

And, well, for those wondering what possible reason Deity might make queer girls in committed relationships, ...Counseling straight guys in bars would apparently be one of them.

I hear this sort of thing *so* much.

How people can simultaneously feel *so bad about sex* and *so bad about no sex* must take some serious theological doing.

I do talk about the Goddess a lot, J. (With perhaps a notion of particular fury at how many get told they're 'unloveable' in this world.)
There's mercy there, sure, but, more importantl:

If you don't mind me talking about 'The God,' ...call it a metaphor, if you like... but, to greet others, find those gifts you have been given, and bring them to the world freely and without particular expectation.

Just strength and honesty and *care,* J.

Joy and strength, not some horrible, horrible deficiency to redress.

There's good stuff in you. No one brings it out *for* you, though, any more than they can say you are less than beautiful.

Mark ye, though:

Women aren't abstractions, ...not, when deciding if they want to be with you, judges of some essential inadequacies, just *humans with their own needs and ideas, too.*

You have to respect that, and maybe realize, you can miss out on a lot with goal-oriented ego-at-stake thinking.

Gods know how many men there are out there who get the notion that talking to a girl must mean they're about to 'get' something, then wonder why they (collectively) get so many cold shoulders.

Most folks out there live under a pretty limited narrative of what sex and sexuality are about: it's not only why so much bigotry about queer people, (that's folks trying to control and secure access to mates, on some level: when they say, "If everyone is gay, (not gonna happen) ...then there will be no babies! (for me)") and why so many feel there's no one out there for them cause they can't pick anyone up in bars.

Probably why the more people believe sex is just some dubiously-moral 'bait' to get people to get married and have babies, or think that marriage and babies are the 'price' someone 'pays' to get sex, well, the less likely they are to have a successful marriage.

There's a profound irony that the more people think sex and joy is a 'guilty sinful pleasure,' the more likely they are to actually get no more than that, and wonder why they hate their partner, or to get no sex and wonder why no one wants said 'empty hedonism' with them.

There's a lot more to you, J, you just gotta bring it to the world.

Blessed be.

Whoops! Anonymous post by me again! *blushes*

Anonymous:

Brian,

BTW, I didn't want to say this, but you need to step away from the computer and take a break from your addiction to it, for your own good.

There is medication for treatment for people addicted to the internet. Talk to someone you trust about it.

-----------------------------

Say there! Thanks lady! I'll get right on it! OMG, you're so funny! Seriously! :)

Aww, J, hon, you're trying to play the wrong game, there, ...some folks try and *turn* it into a game, in fact, there's more.

What's all this talk about, money and rules and coercion and 'who's worthy' and this and that.

Certain folks like to play humans off each other and themselves and all these 'things' about *control...*

And it's probably hard to see when you ain't feeling so good about yourself, but you play to the strengths, not beg for 'mercy' about 'weaknesses.'

The world ain't exactly short of people who could use each others' comfort and love. Maybe you're no Cary Grant, but be honest with *yourself,* and live from there. You can't just buy 'a beer and a condom' and feel ripped off cause that isn't what 'buys' love in certain establishments.

P.S. I hope you find someone J. You deserve no less, and don't forget that.

Cheers!

Matt:
**It'd be interesting to see the number of people who abuse this opportunity. While I believe it will be much less frequent for males (men seem to be for the most part more homophobic than women) it's possible that two same-sex unmarried friends will file for marriage simply to get the benefits.**

Straight people have been known to do that as well.

Fact is, no one at the Clerk of Court's office cared WHY my husband and I wanted to get married. No questions about our fertility, desire (or lack thereof) for children, no questions about our feelings for each other. The only thing they wanted to know was whether we had picture ID and exact cash.

To Paganplace,

I believe people do change sometimes.

On another note, that I think it is difficult to get a date nowadays, marriage is harder thing. ask ing a person out is a hard job, I mean the sec you throw your line, that whether female or male they starts to judge you, whether how you dress, how good you look, height, interests, certificate, wallet size ...
You feel like you go out within a withdraw machine or something, forget about having children, it is difficult to feed two persons, my mom even tell me marriage is okay, but having children need to think twice, I agree.
For me, man or woman, forget it, no one even wanna have a one night stand with me:)

And you guys have pretty strong faith and aim pretty far:), talk about health, society, law, belief, I am happy every Friday night I could afford both beer and condom, which is good, then there is a time things...

I think you guys need to all thank God, that you all have a partner, male or female, someone who wants to stay with you, for me, I do anything if a girl would go out with me, physically, of course financially I am impotent:)

Btw, you're doing a great job at making yourself out to be the "bad party", ya silly psycho! No help needed there. :)

And now, a parting song:

So long, farewell,
auf wiedersehen, goodbye.
Adieu, adieu,
To you, and you and you...

That's not to say, J, that sex and sexuality don't have wonderful powers for healing, cleansing, and purification, as backwards as that sounds to gay-bashing anti-sex ideologues, (believe it or not, human societies weren't all about 'war on sexuality,' but quite the contrary: sexuality was seen as a good and necessary cleansing and re-connection to life and civil society *after* the horrors of war or other conflict.)

It still appears in our stories, in the West, people just *don't understand it.* Even as they try to cast the old temples as essentially-degraded because it was said that what they call 'dirty, dirty, bad' sex went on there.

Romans were cast as decadent in later ages, but actually, they were pretty hung-up in some ways, and loved to read, essentially, lurid travelogues about what went on elsewhere, which we now treat as historical fact because they're written in Latin and were allowed to escape Church censorship.

Little's changed about humanity, but the *meanings* were lost.

Anonymous wants to hear about the Goddess, well, I don't really actually have to *tell* anyone, only point out that some people, driven by fear and aggression and, in fact, repression, have put certain wool over their own eyes about *who and what we are.*

All is renewed, and no devils or beliefs or even Gods *stop that,* not in life, and not, we say, in this thing called 'death.'

Frightened people tend to think the only purpose of Gods is to limit and punish and demand and control, then project these fears on others.

This is not actually what yer man Jesus was actually trying to accomplish.

What I think, J, is that that's not a Pagan story, so much. Remember what I said earlier about some people getting sex and aggression all mixed up?

But I have to warn you guys, please promise me that after two month of long fight over here, that you don't develop some strange bonding with each other, and become friends or lovers things:) I've been fouled so many times about this kind of drama.

Right now I am already have feeling that some of you guys love the fighting relationship of couple, and somehow miraculously get together in future, and fighting happily after especially one believe on other things, most aged couple do have such relationship.

And please no more Romeo and Juliet story that one radical gay meet a cold-heart conservative, and fighting for two month, and both are changed, fall in love with each other, because both require such relationship to get pass, and get together, and both become odd for either group.

OMG
Did I watch too much love films!?:)

It is a good story, should I copyright it?:)

What you think Paganplace and Anonymous.

"There is nothing meaningful about you. Your post was offensive and if you had any wisdom you would be apologizing instead of trying to make me look like the "bad party" here."

------------------------------

I don't derive my meaning by either man or god.

Anyhow, you actually do have true evil in you. No apology for you.

Eh, Anonymous, it's not 'addiction' to stand up for one's own rights and dignity. (more trying to 'make us go away?'

Trust me, I'd much prefer to go out and play, but I'm afraid someone decided I was too 'dirty' for proper health care some while back, and *tsk* Limited mobility.

Then again, you were here all day Sunday, and I wasn't.

Again, you want to quote what a whole bunch of other people, anyone but me, said, and claim it's something about my Goddess, you'll have to do better.

Shall I bump a post or two for you?

And, J, no sweat. Slight tendency to get too friendly with wild animals aside, I know Nature for 'red in tooth and claw.' There's certainly mercy in this wonderful universe, just not in terms of the theological horrors certain humans construct.

'The quality is not strained, it droppeth as gentle rain'

Freaking out about people being eternally-judged over some sexual hangup of some people who wrote a book, this is something *people* choose.

Not even how you have to read your Gospels.

It was pretty much your St. Paul who apparently found the Old Gods weren't 'tolerant' enough of being a right bastiche and started teaching early Christians what was in *his* potty mouth.

Nothing to get in a twist over, though, that's probably the point, somewhere.

Go for it!

MR Mark, you're back. Good to see you and as usual you tickle my fancy with your post. To wit "Perhaps his waste spews from other orifices, like the mouth and nose?" reminds me of the story of the first ever "Christian" heretic.

Father Arius was a priest that supported the wrong position about Jesus being God or something equally argumentative then that's now fact. It was his bishop's position. He got fired, had his license to pass the plate revoked and his bishop was shipped off to the wild country, Germany.

When Arius' appeals to get reinstated failed he decided to take his case directly to Constantine who at the time of the debate, Council of Nice, Constantine had nodded agreement to his arguments. Anyhow, Constantine welcomed him and fed him a fine lunch. Shortly thereafter, "Arius died in the latrine with eruptions from every body orifice." Stuff was coming out his ears too, I guess.

One man's dogma is another's heresy. Only the religious authorities know which is which for sure so be careful when you dine with them. Thou shalt not kill does not apply to heretics. Heretics are well advised to not apply for the job of priest either.

BTW, Paganplace you need to step away from the computer and take a break from your addiction to it as well, it is for your own good.

There is medication for treatment for people addicted to the internet. Talk to someone you trust about it. I wrote this for you.

To Paganplace,

I dare not to think myself a Christian, I can say that I believe God and I read Bible. But it is a embarrassing thing for me to say I am a follower, because every time I look at the mirror I see a sinner just as others and desperately need mercy of God. That is why I try not to judge anyone, or be a teacher, but sometimes I have to stand up to say somethings when I say people judging others as if they are God. I don't like it. Especially when I see a lot people use the Name of God or Bible to correct others, not themselves, they can be terrorists or homophobias or others, only the result varies, but hatred develops gradually, some are radical some are stereotype, under the cover all the same.
And my responsibility is to look into my mirror often, when every time I want 'help' others, I would look into my mirror, so this is how I forgive and accept, of course I am no Christ, nor pastor, just a sinner, that is all. And I would not even want people label me as Christian, I know Mother Teresa looked like one, Martin Luther looked like one, but there are only a few, very a few. I am telling my own opinion.

My job is if anyone interested about Bible, especially about the love of God, then I am happy to share, but about right or wrong, what I know? for my butt is much filthy than others?

And these couple days, my job is to watch you guys fight here:) I love it:) better than TV:) Man! Especially there are a pack of wolves here open their teeth biting, better than animal kingdom, I am tired of those re-runs:), and I know God is Almighty, but hey, little devil is also showing his weapon work here, I am sitting on the front rows right now:) better than HBO!:)

By the way, anyone know an open-minded girl wanna introduce me, love to get an number :)

Thanks!

Brian,

BTW, I didn't want to say this, but you need to step away from the computer and take a break from your addiction to it, for your own good.

There is medication for treatment for people addicted to the internet. Talk to someone you trust about it.

Anonymous:

"What great compassion from gays and lesbians who claim to be “morally upright” and claim to follow a Goddess of goodness. "

You wanna hear about my Goddess, quote *me,* instead of some other people. See, those screen names are useful.

I wrote plenty a bit down there, just for you. :)

Brian:

I didn't want to come back to this, but I am. And I won't kid around this time, because I am worried for the sake of this person, who is obviously trying to get my attention by repeatedly reposting my remarks.

Anon, step away from the computer, and talk to someone... anyone... a friend you know and trust. Talk to them about your feelings. It will be healthier for you. And I do mean this post in a caring way.

Just be well, okay? Please.
*****************

There is nothing meaningful about you. Your post was offensive and if you had any wisdom you would be apologizing instead of trying to make me look like the "bad party" here.

Brian:

"That is the reason why I "hate" you. Thank you once again for the tears."

-------------------------------

No, you hate gays for just being. You couldn't begin to imagine the tears you've caused because of your intolerant beliefs. May 18, 2008 4:30 PM
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Roy:

AB:"But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness.

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Is that why there are so many tornadoes in he Bible Belt?"

May 18, 2008 5:17 PM
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Roy:

"Contrast Jesuslandia with Mexico, the current neocon/neochristian scapegoat for derision and hate.

Yesterday, was an official day sanctioned by the Mexican congress against homophobia. Compare that to the hateful Leviticus scripture cherry picking neochristians posting here. Which idea is more civil and advanced?

I hope God blesses American homophobes with a gay child or grandchild just to see what they will do then." May 18, 2008 5:07 PM
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Anonymous: "Sorry, but this is hilarious! I hope the author doesn't mind me posting it again.

Says the Christian: "I'm just following God's laws."

Says the SS Prison Guard: "Funny you should mention that, because I was just following the Fuhrer's orders, but the Nuremberg court didn't buy that argument. How's it working for you?"

Says the Christian: "Fairly well actually, as my beliefs are enshrined and protected by law and the constitution."

Says the SS Prison Guard: "Wish I had have thought of that...."" May 18, 2008 11:36 PM

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You have some nerve posting these demeaning criticisms against Christians and then call us “intolerant.” of gays and lesbians. Practice what you preach and stop crying the “victim mentality!

What great compassion from gays and lesbians who claim to be “morally upright” and claim to follow a Goddess of goodness.

Not to imply that the Bible *is* said manual, as the same folks insist. just to be clear: actual nature contradicts, well, prety much everything they say about it: the whole book's pretty much based on the idea 'Nature is wrong' and then they try to use a simplistic view of it to claim the book overrides reality.

An 'Intelligent designer' who *wanted to make sex not be 'sinfully pleasurable' in order to have procreation wouldn't have to look too far down evolutionary branches for ready solutions.

My religion honors Nature as presented, and if we find the Gods there, well, at least we start from what others call 'Creation' instead of trying to make people cry for not fitting in their book so well, except as 'villains.'

It's primarily a bonding activity, Mr. Mark. If it were 100 percent efficient procreatively, we would overpopulate. :)

It's funny how many who believe in Biblical 'Intelligent Design' just refuse to 'read the manual.' :)

I didn't want to come back to this, but I am. And I won't kid around this time, because I am worried for the sake of this person, who is obviously trying to get my attention by repeatedly reposting my remarks.

Anon, step away from the computer, and talk to someone... anyone... a friend you know and trust. Talk to them about your feelings. It will be healthier for you. And I do mean this post in a caring way.

Just be well, okay? Please.

Centered:
**Nature is explicit. The sexual organs were made for a distinct final purpose: procreate! The pleasure that comes with it is just 'the hook' for a man and a woman to engage.**

Hmm. I wonder what organs Centered uses to relieve himself of bodily wastes? Perhaps his waste spews from other orifices, like the mouth and nose?

Seems to me that since "the sex organs" in many species also happen to be "the waste disposal organs," that said organs already have a dual purpose, and if they already have a dual purpose as sex organs and waste disposal organs, why couldn't they have dual purposes in the roles of sex organs?

In fact, in practice, it would seem that as sex organs, their PRIMARY purpose is to give pleasure, NOT to procreate. After all, one can have sex every day for years and not conceive a child. Once that child is conceived, the pleasure aspect of sex can continue for months and months. In short, it would appear that the sex organs are mainly pleasure organs that are ready to act as agents of procreation for a very few times in our lives. In the USA, they act as reproductive organs roughly 2.5 times per marriage, while they act as pleasure organs thousands and thousands of times over the same period.

BTW - to say that, "sexual organs were made for a distinct final purpose: procreate!" would indicate a belief that once humans lose the ability to produce eggs and sperm that the sexual organs are no longer needed. Good luck on that front. I doubt even ExLax will help you on that front.

Understand, then, J, if you want people think otherwise of Christians, where your responsibilities in this world lie.

To Paganplace,

Please don't call Anonymous 'Christian', he is not, he talks like devil. I am sure he is not Christian. He's got no love that a Christian suppose to have, he is a wolf that already undressed the sheep cloth, biting right now.

I mean, I know you Christians don't have a tradition where your divinities and their employees walk among you, but your Jesus did say that how you treat the 'least' of people is how you treat him.

You think so very little of queer folks' humanity, Anonymous. You seek to see people *hurt* for loving each other, and use a foul mouth to claim we deserve that.

How do you figure exulting in the tears you cause plays in the Kingdom from which you claim to derive such perfect authority?

Good, you say, Anonymous?

No wonder you don't want to be named.

Who says that is no friend of humanity, the Gods, or the Christ some of my ancestors believed in.

No, you hate gays for just being. You couldn't begin to imagine the tears you've caused because of your intolerant beliefs.

GOOD!~