Comments (518)

I have to say, I wrote a very even handed response discussing Scientology as a New Religious Movement, and it didn't make it through moderation. I even apologized for all you haters out there!

There is definitely something weird going on here.

Police probe suicide linked to Scientologists

The daughter of a member of Norway's parliament committed suicide hours after she received what her family claims were "devastating" results from a personality test administered by the Church of Scientology. Police in France, where the young woman was studying, are investigating...

'Break you down, build you up,' for a fee
Psychologist Rudy M said a test like the one administered by the Scientologists is not constructive, and rather aimed "at breaking you down, and then they'll offer to build you up again." It's a recruitment tool, he said, and a means of generating future income for the church.

A church critic, agreed, claiming the Scientologists viewed people like Ballo as "'raw meat from the street.' You're told you're worth nothing."

Matthias Fosse, information chief for the Church of Scientology in Norway, rejected such claims, and denied the church preys on young, impressionable people...

aftenposten.no/english/local/article2371180.ece

I'm a Jew too. I won't hide behind my religion or try to make parallels between it and scientolgy.

The scientologist will try to pretend they they are a persecuted minority religion just like the Jews. In fact, they are a fraudulent business with a small religious element.

I hope Germany throws their leaders in jail. I wish the United States would hurry up and do the same, just like they did twenty years ago when Mary Sue Hubbard went into the slammer and L.Ron himself was named an unindited co-conspirator. Hubbard died before doing hard time only because the FBI couldn't find him.

Thanks, Jack, for your posting.

And thanks Claire for your integrity in writing this blog posting.

From the reaction this blog entry has engendered it shows once again how heated are the opinions about Scientology on both sides. I don't know if you expected to launch such a fire storm when you put fingers to keyboard the other day.

As a Scientologist, it disturbs me to see the animosity I read here.

I was raised a Jew, and I wasn't a total stranger to religious prejudice, although I really found it hard to believe when my parents told me that when they were young there were still signs posted on "for rent" and "now hiring" signs that said "Jews and Negroes not need not apply."

My parents also lived through World War II and witnessed personally, both by loss of family members and by my father's personal observation when his division helped liberate the concentration camps, the depths to which racial or religious lies and hatred can bring people.

I am certainly not trying to draw a parallel between the treatment of Jews by Nazis and the treatment of Scientologists. But I do see a parallel in the unbridled hatred that is displayed in some of these postings.

I've been a Scientologist for 37 years. In that time I have seen so many people helped. I know Scientologists to be tremendously well intentioned, caring people, who really put themselves out to help others.

I have read a lot of the anti-Scientology material on the Net, and so I also understand how those, believing it, would think they are doing a service by these kinds of postings. But I believe it is the responsibility of anyone reading this to challenge what they are reading and not just buy into a hate campaign. When people come to visit our churches and actually meet Scientologists and talk to us and establish dialog in person it dispels the lies. And for anyone posting here or reading here that's what I recommend you do.

I would just like to say that the comments here left by Scientologists should be taken with a grain of salt. Scientology’s own teachings state that those here speaking out against Scientology are labeled SP's or suppressive persons. L Ron Hubbard wrote policies stating that SP's could be lied to or destroyed by Scientologists without any repercussions to Scientologists. (The policy is widely available on the Internet for those who choose to confirm it.) So any time a Scientologist tells you, "There's no such rule or practice in Scientology," or, "I'm in Scientology and I never did X, Y, Z,” they could be and are probably lying. They lie because they are directed to lie by their religious teachings. Now they will post here and tell you I'm lying about this...but don't take my word for it - or theirs. Please, if you really want answers just research. All the information you need, including court documents, court testimony, criminal indictments, copies of L Ron Hubbard's tech and policies (in his own personal handwriting) are available for your viewing pleasure. You can also research how it came to fruition that Scientology was given tax-exempt status in the US. How they use the courts to silence critics. How they mock up their own threats and cry persecution or religions bigotry. How they behave more like a controlling cult or criminal organization than a religion. Just a final note….The “Church” of Scientology and its members are responsible for the largest case of espionage and the largest infiltration of the US government in the history of the US. The “Checkered past” comment really does a tremendous job to minimize the astonishingly criminal past of this cult. If that was the intent of the author….mission accomplished.

> What is Germany so afraid of?
It is afraid of infiltration, harassment, litgation and blackmailing of public officials. Ask France, ask Italy, ask Belgium, ask the FBI.

> Ban Scientology? Doesn't that seem kind of extreme? They are a religion largely focused on self-improvement.

Ban extremism, Scientologists advocate the complete destruction of individuals that do not agree with them: their livihood, their families and their fortunes.

Graham Berry, Micheal Pattinson, Gerry Armstrong have all been made bankrupt.

> While I'm well aware of their checkered past, decrying it unconstitutional seems like a threatened position to take by a nation.

Take a clue. Wikileaks is available. Affitdavid by Lawernce Brennan, Micheal Pattinson and Graham Berry are available online. Maybe its time to get off your ivory tower?

As a German i can honestly tell you that the system of free speech works even here! (omg YES! Even though we have a bad history!) Maybe it works better than anywhere else! USA is known for it's freedom in many ways, which does not mean that that's always a good thing!(Ownership of guns for example...and many dumb laws) Germany has the duty to educate its people in present times for that there will never be such dark times (WW1+2+holocaust) again. That's why every new group (which in this case has also influence on the economy) is investigated and rated. Scientology is no religion!(As you can find out by yourself by researching! And as it was stated by many other commentaries) It tries to fish new members with suborganisations like Narnocon, or by offending "free school-help" (you can imagine how that looks like)

In my opinion, Germany got less neo-nazis than any other country in the (western) world and even those MAY say what they believe in (of course not stuff like "there was no holocaust" etc.) and they MAY protest! You even can vote for them! So don't they anything bad about the German right of free speech! It has learned more from its history than most other nations ... I won't talk about American (imperial) politics ... you should know it yourself.

Now you are being specific. Good.

That is the same thing I am referring to when I mention free speech and due process.

Unfortunately, "ideas" can not be baned.
A light and can shown on them and the business associated with the "ideas" can be taxed.

Perhaps CoS should be split up?
A small element of CoS could be considered religious and tax exempt but the majority of its enterprise is truly a business in nature and should be taxed.

You as a citizen can be a law maker. Would you really want to ban ideas? Such an environment becomes a breading ground for contempt.

Description of distorted logic was to highlight the inherent danger in being silenced by any institution/body or being manipulated into playing PR on their behalf. Freedom of speech includes freedom to criticize any religious or business practice in a true democracy.

Better safe than sorry - if an industry introduces a product that has proved to be harmful authorities step in to take it off the market, eg lead in toys. The safety of citizens is the overriding factor not the financial concern of the industry. A business under cover of religion when proved to cause serious concerns to ex-members and non-members alike deserves to be scrutinized by lawmakers and banned if deemed necessary. Freedom to report on the harm caused is a public responsibility on the part of anyone who possesses any verifiable knowledge. An unsuspecting public deserves to be informed irrespective of the final decision made by the lawmaker.

Stated below:

"it forces people to elect officials who are sure to convert the nation into a totalitarian Communist state"

Communism is not necessary ingredient to create a Totalitarian state. It is merely a "flavor" of Totalitarianism.

Removing Liberty and Freedoms are the ingredients to creating a Totalitarian state. Shine a light on any "-ism" and it will not grow. The light I'm talking about is Free Speech and Due Process.

Stating "Better safe than sorry" implies a desire to give up those freedoms. You appear to be very easily manipulated and worthy of subjugation in a Totalitarian state, albeit one which claims animosity against Communism.

By looking at the amount of comments it appears that if you wrote a second article your amount of readers would go up.

Might I recommend going to

enturbulation.org
xenu.net
whyweprotest.net

Anonymous would be more then happy to help you, in learning the other side of this story

By looking at the amount of comments it appears that if you wrote a second article your amount of readers would go up.

Might I recommend going to

enturbulation.org
xenu.net
whyweprotest.net

Anonymous would be more then happy to help you, in learning the other side of this story

Clarification: Terrorism in the name of Islam by some Muslim extremists only.

Twisted logic

If the public is warned about the dangers of Islamic terrorism, Nazism, Communism or whatever, it breeds a nation of Islamic terrorists, it paves the way for people to adopt Nazi ideals and eventually take power, it forces people to elect officials who are sure to convert the nation into a totalitarian Communist state, in other words in an act of rebellion force people to adopt the very same practice the dangers of which are being brought to the attention of the public.

Better safe than sorry

The democracies of both the US and Germany were founded on certain principles. Both countries have a unique history preceding the foundation of a democratic state and their respective Constitutions took them into consideration. It is better to overdo protective measures than be sorry due to carelessness.

Based on his book The Lord of the Rings the author J R R Tolkien could have established a benign "religion" and applied for tax exemption for any business built in its name. He didn't. Hmmmmmm....

Although these specific issues regarding Scientology occurs in Germany; Germany is well known for its draconian restrictions on Free Speech. Germany's Free speech is restricted all in the name of curbing hate crimes and right wing fanaticism.

One must ask a more fundamental question on why people give up their Liberty and Freedom in the name of more security? Fear is such a powerful motivator. Can this happen in America as it happened in early 20th Century Germany? Can America possibly become nationalistic and fascist without realizing it?

Governments should be ruled by people- individuals and not become an oligarchy based upon any specific theocratic dogmatism or corporatism for that matter. Through Germany's restrictions on Free Speech are from fear of giving rebirth to a Forth Reich, promoting such fear can incubate that very thing which is verboten.

In America, has any US Government agency used Fear to manipulate the people in daily news stories to promote some corporate fanatical agenda?

And should any Religious Institution be given a free ride and not pay taxes? As that seems to really be at the crux of the Germany/Scientology debate and wholly ignored in America as verboten.

And what is wrong investigating and prosecuting the criminal activities of a religious institution be it Scientology's kidnapping and brain washing to Catholic Priest pedophiles?

When discussing the concept of "Living Under God", I prefer to distinguish all associations generated from man made social constructs, to that which is truly Ethereal. The essential extracted part in living Under God becomes very simple, while the convoluted man made cruft continues to remain inane.

Why are you censoring perfectly reasonable comments? Just wondering.

I find it interesting that posts are being deleted from this blog in the same way they were deleted from Oprah's by the moderators.

It's quite interesting how moderators at both places, the Washington Post and Oprah.com's blogs are spinning the narrative by deleting posts which refer to the facts of the German report on WISE (Scientology's "Business Technology" front group) which has been stated by the German governmet to be attempting to infiltrate their economy with the "immediate goal of economic domination" and the "long term goal of completely taking over society."

Here, as there, are the only two possible inerpretations. Massive efforts are being made by Scientologists to squash responses by reporting factual posts as "offensive"; Ms. Hoffman is slanting the truth to support a "kindler, gentler vieew of Scientology" for her own reasons; or, the Editors of the Post are skewing reality by limiting factual reporting in such a fashion as to limit the dissemenation of factual data and conclusions drawn by a United States ally.

If the press intends to keep its own constitutional freedoms in the United States without governmental interference, then its coverage must be unbiased. If it cannot be an honest steward of the public trust, and on its own initiative instead chooses to censor facts in order to create fictions, then the Washington Post and Ms. Hoffman should be held to task for their slanting of the truth regardless of their motive.

This too shall not stand; America, unlike Scientologists given worldwide press yesterday, is not in danger of becoming Nazi Germany, provided we allow the conclusions of social scientists and the government of Germany to publicly report their findings in our press too.

If the goal is to create an America where news is controlled and rationed based upon the whims of the dangerous technocratic and mechanistic oligarchy which is Scientology, then today this blog has succeeded. Should it continue, perhaps when the German report gains the attention of Congress one of the areas of investigation will include Scientology's "reach" into America's supposedly independent press and the discussion of who is abusing constitutional freedoms can include The Washington Post.

One more thing...consider that Hitler started with ranting in a room off to the side of a beer hall, and rose to lead a country into madness, in attempt to conquer the world.

Six thousand glassy-eyed Scientologists have already pretty much taken over Clearwater Florida, their base. They already operate like the mafia, and need to be monitored carefully. They are people who can't be taken at their word.

People need only Google: Scientology Washington Post for some shocking, well-researched articles in your own paper.

Flash back to 1920's Germany... No one protested the rise of a fanatical anti-Semite, who believed in racial purity, mysticism, and new world order under a thousand year Reich. After an attempt to overthrow the government, he was thrown in jail, where he wrote Mein Kampf and in a rambling tome, set down many of his ideas. Few bought or read the book.

In contrast, in the 1950's, lots of people bought L. Ron Hubbard's Dianetics, but after a year, the frenzy of interest in it faded. Hubbard didn't give up though. He was a pathological liar, in FBI files as "insane" and a master hypnotist, and continued to attract investors and believers in whatever claptrap he was dishing out to dupe people out of their money.

The litany of his lies and outrageous behavior would make Hitler in the 1920's seem almost fair and normal in comparison. Whether it was mailing away for his PhD -- he was a college dropout -- or claiming he was channeling ten thousands of the greatest minds for his every thought, or making part of his resume that he worked for National Geographic and was the first person to do underwater photography in a bathysphere, Hubbard went on with these tall tales, most harmless, many not.

Unlike Hitler, Hubbard was not a loner and was with people (including multiple wives, lovers, and associates) nearly all the time.

Anyway, Germany and others take this group very seriously. It has a LONG history. Like Nazis, Scientologists too believe in destroying their critics, and a new world order, with brainwashed zombies as followers. The similarities between Nazis and Scientologists are chilling.

David Miscavige, their current leader, is a high school drop out. The cult is shrouded in mystery and claims that they are a Church, but they say in public lately that they let members choose any religion they wish. They deny or distort everything, when questioned, and are instructed to do so by their greed creed.

They are rich, powerful and dangerous. Germany doesn't want them. They learned their lesson from the Holocaust; NEVER forget.

I am *incredibly* distressed that you would publish this uninformed puff-piece, even if it's just in a blog.

The history and actions of the Church of Scientology are a tough topic to write about -- primarily because they've gone to great lengths to obfuscate both their beliefs and their actions.

It takes months of investigation to be able to competently comment on their actions -- something that *obviously* has not happened here.

This complexity is something they rely on to prevent negative public relations. They are *expert* at it.

Please... if you're going to write anything about Scientology in the future, do your homework first. You're a journalist, presumably.

Use the Freedom of Information Act to request the FBI files on their long and sordid history of misdeeds before you write again. I, as a private citizen, have done *my* due diligence when reading up on them, and I've been completely shocked by what I've found.

You work for one of the most reputable papers in America. It astonishes me that you can't be bothered to do the same before publishing this nonsense.

Do your homework... and only then come back to comment on this subject.

I am *incredibly* distressed that you would publish this uninformed puff-piece, even if it's just in a blog.

The history and actions of the Church of Scientology are a tough topic to write about -- primarily because they've gone to great lengths to obfuscate both their beliefs and their actions.

It takes months of investigation to be able to competently comment on their actions -- something that *obviously* has not happened here.

This complexity is something they rely on to prevent negative public relations. They are *expert* at it.

Please... if you're going to write anything about Scientology in the future, do your homework first. You're a journalist, presumably.

Use the Freedom of Information Act to request the FBI files on their long and sordid history of misdeeds before you write again. I, as a private citizen, have done *my* due diligence when reading up on them.

You work for one of the most reputable papers in America. It astonishes me that you can't be bothered to do the same before publishing this nonsense.

Do your homework... and only then come back to comment on this subject.

A bully feels "persecuted" when confronted and exposed. In Germany CoS is up against Verfassungschutz, a power that will not be taken in by brilliant PR and manipulation. The freedom and welfare of ex-Cos members and non-CoS members is at stake. The Germans are right to have the highest protector of law in the land get involved. This is no matter for religious leaders to tackle.

Germany doesn't need another NAZI-like ideology spreading like a cancer in its land.

Jesus was not a science fiction writer who decided inventing a religion was the best way to make money.

Jesus preached in public. The Bible is available to all. Many organizations distribute the Bible free of charge.

Christianity was known as a sect of Judaism. A sect is a small break away group. Christians preached their religion in public and had nothing to hide. Jesus commanded His followers to love others, to help the poor and needy and not to exploit anyone.

A cult is a group that practices its religion it secret and makes its teaching available only to its members, in the case of CoS at a horrendous price in terms of money and freedom. It robs others of human rights to criticize it for its verifiable wrong deeds. A cult is afraid of outside scrutiny. A cult robs its members of their ability to think critically about its own religion.

Scientology has come to my attention and I have learnd a few things about it. One is the few sects that have sepporated from the main group. The sects are more open than the main group and give their church a more evolving doctrine. The thing I find scarry about all the CoS is that it could be the one that has been destroying evedence that scientificaly proves that there is a God even a Christ. Unfrotunetly, a part of main streem christianity has been also against this and has declaired that church a cult, even used its' uneque desctiption to make a deffinition for the word. I Ironicaly, they have called christ a cult leader in the process. Any way.
I don't know if they are the ones who are destroying the evidence but surely they have the rescorces.

Scientology has come to my attention and I have learnd a few things about it. One is the few sects that have sepporated from the main group. The sects are more open than the main group and give their church a more evolving doctrine. The thing I find scarry about all the CoS is that it could be the one that has been destroying evedence that scientificaly proves that there is a God even a Christ. Unfrotunetly, a part of main streem christianity has been also against this and has declaired that church a cult, even used its' uneque desctiption to make a deffinition for the word. I Ironicaly, they have called christ a cult leader in the process. Any way.
I don't know if they are the ones who are destroying the evidence but surely they have the rescorces.

What a very irresponsible piece of "journalism", and incredibly misguided - does the fact that scientology is, on very tenuous grounds, labelled a "faith" in some countries mean that its immune from the weight of the very real criticism levelled against it on so many fronts?

The problem isn't what people who are Scientologists believe in, it's the very, very well documented shady practises, disconnection policies, harassment of any and all critics - what a letdown from the paper that broke watergate, not to be informed about Operation Freakout, Snow White, Paulette Cooper etc. "Checkered past" - you insult the memory of too many people who died through association with this CULT, the people who continue to fight, despite harassment that YOU would be very quick to moan about if you encountered it, and the Anonymous legion that has sprung up to peacefully demonstrate against the abuses of Scientology.

What a foolish, blinkered, anti evidence, narrow minded point of view, wilfully ignoring reams of evidence. You should be ashamed of yourself. The number of comments on your piece alone speak loudly of just how wrong your "opinions" are, and how out of touch with current feeling and action, including that of Germany. Your crass opinion is sadly what I'd expect from someone for whom faith outdoes evidence and rationalism. Wake up and smell the coffee - this is a dangerous, money making scam that is thankfully, finally feeling the weight of feeling aginst it, DESPITE inane apologists such as this columnist.

I do wonder if, before writing this piece, Claire Hoffman took into account that a lot of the allegations of anti-Scientology discrimination by Germany have been proven to be false. For instance, the Church of Scientology claimed in one of its ads that a teacher had been fired after it was discovered that she was a Scientologist. That's simply false. The school discovered she was a Scientologist when she distributed Scientology literature to her students, and on that first occasion she was not fired, but reprimanded. She was fired when she refused to stop proselytizing to her students and distributed Scientology literature on eleven more occasions.

Or take the case of Antje Victore, who was granted asylum in the US due to her supposed "persecution" as a Scientologist. This was due in part to the letters she presented purporting to be from business owners who said they could not employ her because she was a Scientologist. What later came to light, however, is that the authors of those letters were themselves Scientologists, and had written the letters in response to a specific request from Victore and Scientology's Office of Special Affairs for letters declaring her unemployable because of Scientology. Victore even sent them letters to use as models. Victore was trying to get away from huge tax debt and possible criminal charges, and the OSA was trying to get her away so that she could not be called against her former boss, also a Scientologist, on his criminal charges.

I simply don't think it's true that "one has to wonder" about the Church of Scientology's treatment by the German state. How would YOU treat an organization that acted in such blatantly dishonest ways and then blamed YOU for the fact that it had to be kept under surveillance?

As mentioned Germany is not against the beliefs of Scientology. If people want to believe in alien souls that inhabit our world and some uber alien named Xenu, go ahead.

The problem I and the German government have is with the organization and leadership of the church.

It is basicly a giant pyramid scheme that cons people out of their money, destroys relationships and suppresses and intimidates critics.

Get informed about their forced abortions, child brainwashing, beatings on members, private investigator intimidations, abusive labor camps, etc etc etc

"checkered past", how about becoming aware of their checkered present.

Defending that criminal institution is down right irresponsible Claire. Shame on you.

There are many brilliant German theologians. Maybe they also contributed their mite in telling the difference between a science fiction - business enterprise cult and a religion. Discern the spirits and judge them by their fruits. The reign of silent terror is not the mark of a religion.

Time to read the Lord of the Rings.

CoS is a cult cos the teachings are kept secret and revealed only to members in secret.

It is a business because it sells its "religious" text for a very high price.

The teachings are revealed in stages as the cult member is brainwashed in stages to proceed to accept the next level of teaching/brainwashing.

Any criticism is interpreted as a grave threat to its existence and evil tactics are used to silence critics.

It was thought that science fiction turned into a "religion" would be a lucrative business.

The goal is power, exploitation and money. The means is science fiction turned into religion with psycho techniques.

Ex members could inform the public if any occult ritual is part of the service.

"We encourage users to analyze, comment on and even challenge washingtonpost.com's articles, blogs, reviews and multimedia features."

Is that an understatement?

Murder, extortion, spies, and money are plenty for Germany to be afraid of from the cult which REQUIRES abortions by high ranking members, disconnection from any family member who doesn't like the cost of Scientology, and since when does a "Church" need an investigative unit and video records of lie detector sessions?

Have you done even one MINUTE of research?

Germany has all the right to ban this organization. They are buying companies and spying on countries activities. They are a threat to social life of people.

With regard to the main point of the article, I'm with you on this Claire. It seems pretty over-the-top for Germany to go after Scientology to such an extent. It seems that the idea of "separation of religion and state" is given lip service in much of Europe, but in actual practice gets easily abused. It's a shame, since Europe has such a long religious tradition. And frankly, you would think that Germany would have learned a lesson the last time they tried to marginalize a minority religion.

With regard to other comments on this board about Scientologists not being allowed to be friends with non-Scientologists (including those that disagree with Scientology beliefs) -- that's ridiculous. I worked at a company that had many Scientologists, Christians, atheists, agnostics, etc. working and socializing side-by-side -- and people were easily friends across various religious and philosophical backgrounds. This is just simply a myth.

The replies by Scientologists here are nothing short of a joke. Their constant claims of persecution are outrageous and outlandish. So far they have only been claiming that they are suffering bigotry and hate speech because people have been asking questions about their faith. That is in no way Religious peresecution. Religious persecution is when you are attending your church with the fear that you may not come back home afterward, when you fear your family may be a target for attack, when a society turns your back on you because of that religion.

Not one of those things has ever happened to a Scientologist. Scientologists have enjoyed freedom of worship, free of speech and other freedoms some religions have had to fight for. Many people believe Scientologists are good, hard working people but many are concerned about the organisation behind it and the practices they encourage like the suppression of criticism. Questioning is not a crime. If Scientology was a true religion, they would be willing to answer all questions and offer their holy text to those who need it and not at a price. And they would be working with the German Government to discuss the issues they are concerned about instead of screaming "persecution" constantly.

The day Scientology is accepted as a true religion is the day when Scientology has nothing to hide from the public.

Ms. Hoffman,

You embarrass yourself and The Washington Post by writing such an ill-informed piece.

The COS has NOTHING to do with religion!

John, Scientology has no such policy whatsoever.

I am a Scientologist. I have many friends who are not Scientologists. There is absolutely nothing in Scientology that states or infers that one should not have friends in other religions.

To the contrary, a central belief of Scientology is "that all men have inalienable rights to their own religious practices and their performance." And point 12 of the Code of a Scientologist is "to support the freedom of religion."

I have been a Scientologist for over 30 years. I have never seen anyone cease to associate with friends over a disagreement about religious beliefs.

On the other hand, I've had to live through quite a bit of abuse, with friends and family coming down on me for "what I believed" based on rumors and false allegations they'd heard or read, which had nothing to do with my beliefs or the beliefs of my religion, along the lines of some of what you read below here in the comments.

There is also a difference between a disagreement over religious beliefs and pressure to change one's beliefs.

I was born and raised Jewish, and when I was in college I had a friend who was very worried about my soul and very insistent that I convert to Christianity. It put quite a strain on our relationship because whenever she saw me she would pressure me to convert. I finally had to ask her please to stop doing this, or that I would rather not talk to her at all. She got this and I was very happy that she decided to let me live as I saw fit and continue our friendship.

If I had someone attacking my beliefs in Scientology I would probably do the same with them as I did with her.

I felt the need to respond to John, although I am aware he is probably not watching this anymore.

I have a very good friend of mine who is a Catholic. I disagree with some fundamental Catholic beliefs such as original sin, for example. My friend and I have had numerous debates about this and many other things I do not agree with. They do not agree with me and I do not agree with them.

When I see my friend we, on occassions, debate these points. We do so with much emotion and feeling.

We are still friends the next day. We are still friends several years later. My friend still visits me (and I them) in spite of the fact that they know I do not agree with their point of view and there will be challenges from either them or me on the point.

Does what you are saying mean that I could no longer continue a friendship with a Scientologist if I continued to disagree with one or two aspects of their faith?

Are you saying that a good friend whom I had known for a long time would discontinue our friendship simply over a disagreement in belief if they were a Scientologist?

That to me sounds very unnatural. My Catholic friend is still my very good friend even after 10+ years of our disagreement on certain things about their faith. We talk about these things on a regular basis. They do not shut me out of their life because I disagree. If anything, they welcome the debate and the discussion as it makes their own faith stronger.

Why does a Scientologist feel the need to cut from their life anyone who disagrees with their faith?

Why is it so important that everyone agree with everything Scientology teaches?

I may disagree with many things about many faiths but they will not exclude me from their lives because of this - why does Scientology?

After the experience Germany had with the Nazi regime, no wonder they are careful about similar rising cults.

The concern that the German government has is not with Scientology the belief system, but with the organization called the Church of Scientology. There are many organizations in Germany practicing Scientology (the "Free Zone" practitioners) but unlike the CoS, none of them are under restriction or surveillance by the German government. The only organization in Germany persecuting the Free Zone practitioners of Scientology is -- surprise, surprise! It's the Church of Scientology, trying to impede the religious freedom of others even as it cries wolf about its own.

$cientology is as much of a "religion" as the Mafia is. A FABULOUS group of people running the criminal organization known as $cientology. Well, except for the countless unexplained deaths and "suicides", the stalking, harassing, conning, destruction of families, etc etc.

If the "church" of $cientology had the means to create another Nazi organization they'd do it in a heartbeat. They have attempted to infilltrate schools and government. The rest of the world could learn a lot from Germany's stance. Hopefully we'll see more countries stand up to these criminals.

Having come under control of a malignant totalitarian group in the relatively recent history, Germans have a natural sensitivity towards such entities. Thus they have recognized $cientology for what it is and are taking appropriate steps to deal with it.

In the beginning of the 90s, I came in contact with Scientology, without knowing. I walked down the street, when somebody held me and offered me a free personal test. As the person was handsome, the rooms were hired next to the guildhouse, what made it look sincere and I was an open-minded student, I said yes.

The following test and conversation took about two hours. The test was meant to find the weak points in my personality and the possibility of improvement. I'm not a genious, but after the test I realized, that I had given myself the answers, I knew before. The test was noting else than a confirmation of my self-assessment. I felt that the test was something like a trap. However I felt somehow guilty to have stolen two hours from that person and couldn't just leave. If somebody does something for free to you, you want to give something back, isn't it? As I felt bad, I left him my address.
In the following weeks and months they sent me advertisments concerning courses. They wantet me to come in a camp for several days. Interesting is the fact, that they rented the rooms in a building, linked to Rudolph Steiner, so they made it look like they would be an Anthroposophic organization. I haven't been there.

When I look back, the whole thing makes me angry. Never did they show, that they were from Scientolotgy . I learned it from the newspaper, when the hire-contract was canceled, because people complained about cozenage. They made the whole thing look like an altruistic thing to help people in some anthroposophic way and not like a business. People are deceivable, if they don't get true informations. I have seen how easy someone can become a victim of Scientology.

John,

I've read your comment and I see that you do not wish to continue the discussion further. I respect that, but please allow me to make myself a bit more clear on one point in my previous comment.

I understand you are upset with the comments and I feel it's regrettable that we felt compelled not to hold back on our views. But please, do not forget exscientologykids (dot) com. I can assure you it takes a far more neutral, yet informative approach. I hope you will visit it one day.

All the best.
Dave.

Bravo Germany!!!

A U.S. judge once commented that if the Mafia was a religion, it would be Scientology.

Bravo Germany for having the strength of fight an evil criminal organization that poses as a religion.

Unlike in the U.S. where Scientology extorted the IRS with embarassing pictures, videos, records and recordings of then IRS Commisssioner Goldberg into granting it a tax exemption, making it the only "religious" group in the U.S that is allowed a tax exemption for it's "educational" courses.

Lastly, having the severely brainwashed cult member Tom Cruisazy wearing an SS uniform in his latest motion picture most have scared the hell out of the Germans and the German government is bravely trying to protect it's citizens from an evil criminal cult. Again, unlike the U.S. which allows criminal activity as long as you pretend to be a religion.

By the way, what other "religion" kills the pets of their critics??

I have looked at both sides of the issue since I first learned about Scientology 25 years ago. I have been through and seen lots of both sides of the issue. I choose the one I choose based on experience. Thats that. I have a right to my opinion I have a right to say what I have seen and seen to be true and all your nasty or not so nasty comments are not going to deter me from my own integrity on the matter. Lots of outpouring from one side means nothing to me. Scientologists in the main ignore this stuff as trying to reason with it does not work as the intent is not survival or reason. The comments speak for themselves. They are not of the sort that would entice me to join that side.

Over and out.

John:

"I've been to Germany and I have seen first hand the hate campaign against Scientology. TV stories, print ads and the like. The print ads patterned after the anti Jewish ads from the 30's and 40's. Same artwork and slogans different religion."

You have no business whatsoever to compare Scientology to what happened to the Jews. Scientology as an organisation is rotten to the core. What other religion has 80-hour workweek for its staff for less then $50 a week? What other religion forces it's parishioners to have abortions? What other religion kicks it's elderly, less productive parishioners on the streets with no pension or medicare, telling them to 'end-cycle', or in plain English; drop dead?

I am not a kid. I am over 40. I will not back down because you threaten me.

Your 'clearing up' of disconnection is laughable and unreal. People from all over the world respect each others religion and can be friends. Scientology has an 'either with us, or against us' attitude which basically says you can not interact with non-Scientologists, let alone former Scientologists or SP's.

It is you who is spreading lies here, just like your PR spokesman Tommy Davis lied on CNN. He said disconnection does not exist, and you try to explain it away.

Scientology is not a religion. It preys upon the weak. It does NOTHING to make other people lives better, despite claiming this anywhere you can. It's all hot air.

Scientology is a cult, and should be banned. Not only in Germany, but everywhere.

Dear John,

I really hope you will read this. I know the emphasize with critics is on handling, and that disconnetion is an extreme thing to do. Maybe it hardly ever happens, maybe it happens a bit more than you think. For myself, I could never ever imagine cutting ties with people I love. No reason could ever be good enough. Do you remember how you felt about this back when you were not a Scientologist?

There are a lot of negative things on this thread, and I'm happy for you to disregard them as false data. But I hope you will find the sheer volume, an indication that perhaps you should do a doubt formula. Perhaps there are some things that you consider not to be perfect about the Church?

I really hope you will have the courage to do a doubt formula about these things. If you do, please do it the best way you can. Please don't shy away from reading some of the things on critical websites. Exscientologykids.org is a great resource if you want to do a doubt formula.

My thoughts go out to you. Good luck.
Dave

John, your claim that the German Government's response to Scientology equals Nazi anti-semitism in the 1930s is a disgrace, and an insult to the murdered Six million. If you had an ounce of decency you would be ashamed of yourself. Or perhaps, like IAS bigwig, Tom Marcellus, you believe the Holocaust is a lie...

Scientology wants to clear our planet from Sp's (criticers of Scientology - Xenu's jailer's). They want all of us become Scientologists or non-criticers of Scientology (having a low income, being downstat, prevents you from becoming Scientologist anyway). It's Battlefield earth.
Read the OT III documents. Therefore the Sea Org Members are clothed like soldiers.

They are dangerous. I don't want to end up working in a company, ruled by Scientology's doctrine. I don't want to be enslaved by Scientology. I'm not German, but I live in Germany. I'm glad the German government is proctecting me against Scientology.

Disconnection, This can be cleared up. This is described in the "Introduction to Scientology Ethics" book. Pages 201 and 205. The complete statement is "handle or disconnect" emphasis on HANDLE. Meaning as an example lets say your friend is an Anonymous member and you are a Scientologist. You start being attacked in your beliefs, you spend considerable efforts to show your friend your side of his objections. This goes on until it seems you can either buckle under and be under the friends belief system or have your own. The antagonism is not stopping and things do not seem to be handling. So you disconnect. No he does not need to be a Scientologist, he does not have to agree with scientology principles he just needs to respect your beliefs and stop attacking them. Or you could not participate in scientology services while connected to him. He would probably disconnect from you, if you were to start attacking his beliefs and would not stop doing that.

If you advertising that scientology is just some harmless self-help group then you are just as dangerous as Tommy Davis and the rest of the cult's goons.

The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.

DCP,

You are of course free to move on from this issue. By all means, avail yourself of the keyboard to find something more important to you.

Quite obviously, hundreds of others don't agree with you. Thank God, or Al Gore, for the internet for it shall set us free!

What HAS gone on far too long is Ms. Hoffman and the Washington Post ignoring the very real outrage at this article.