Comments (125)

Perspective:

a) I don't think I implied that autocracy is better than theocracy. I was speaking specifically about the CPP and the Lama regimes.

b) Probably depends on the person's class. Former Tibetan serfs would have a lot less grievances.

For the above two points, read [ http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html ]

c) I'm no expert on communism but I have read comments from other boards that the repression of political dissent is supposed to a temporary stage in the communist revolution theory. In the real world, no communist revolution has every passed this stage as the dictatorships became addicted to their power.

In a simpler world, it would be easy to say "might doesn't always make right". The problem I have is the hypocrisy of saying it. Look at the G7 countries: USA, Japan, UK, Germany, France, Canada, Italy. No one is innocent. On top of that, the US says nothing of Israel who is occupying the West Bank.

IMO, if mainland China is to change, it is going to be on her terms. China has already shown that she is willing to change its economic ideology. It's pretty obvious where they got their ideas on capitalism, isn't it? I believe political change will come to China. Taiwan was a dictatorship up until 1996. No spotlight was shone on Taiwan yet it became democratic on its own. The Taiwanese people are cut from the same cloth as the Chinese people. However, I believe that any progress will be delayed if the Chinese are made to feel that they are being picked on. A similar thing happened to Serbia. Many Serbians were pushing for change before NATO started bombing them. After the attacks started, Serbians rallied behind their president even though he was accused of war crimes.

a) how is autocracy better than theocracy?

1. What does that have to do with the price of rice in China?? The Chinese government was the best performing form of government in the world in the last decade. It is certainly much more responsive to its citizens' wishes and demands than that of the United States. IF a Chinese leader has a 30% approval rating, he'd have been removed a lot time ago, and wouldn't be sitting out his 8 year term, spending trillions on wars that no sane Americans would want.

2. A theocracy claims to answer to an authority higher than humans. In the Dalai's case, it is worse than even the Catholics, as the Dalai 14 demands to be honored as God incarnate - God himself. Mere humans are not allowed to question God, challenge God's authority, or choose not to believe in God. In a theocracy, there is no choice of even what to believe - the implements of enforcing that unified belief are still on display in the various major Tibetan temples - ye nose shavers (with sharp blades that shave off noses) and leg irons and skull caps, reminding us of have savage the Dalai's brand of barbaric practice was and is. Looking at the Tibetan knive wielding rioters on TV demonstrates how the Dalai intends to enforce his definition of "Tibetan Culture" should he be allowed to resume power.

3. Experientially, even if you equate the Chinese form of government as an autocracy, it performed better than any other form of government in the last decade. Who else can (or did) produce double digit economic growth, leading to the doubling of living standards every 6 or 7 years? You can name any theocracy (there aren't that many left, and for good reason) in the world and compare the performance. There is no comparison.

How do the Chinese view the American lies?

With CNN and the rest of the gang caught red-handed, using doctored photos and condemning China even whilst the terrorists run amok in Lhasa and beyond, the Chinese people have shown a truly awe inspiring unity and maturity, standing fully behind their government in the handling of the riots. Beijing retains a 90% approval rating amongst her people. No more repeat of the 1989 TAM era, where Western lies were given some credence, to devastating effect. That set China's development back 5 years at least. This time around, the Western liars come up emptyhanded. There are already over half a million online signatures by Chinese netizens condemning the Western press and their distortion of the truth about the Lhasa riots, in the last few days alone. This is not only for Chinese in China. The overseas Chinese are actually the ones who pointed out the Western media distortions and lies in the first place during this past week, and the Chinese in Vancouver are organizing a march to protest the distortion.

As long as the Chinese stays united, what difference does it make what the Western liars say? If the West does not want to trade with China, there are lots of other nations and friends who do.

Nancy Pelosi is truly seen as a despicable clown, taking cheap shots at China while (actually BECAUSE) of the Congress that she "leads" has the dubious honor of beating even Dubya - it has an approval rating amongst Americans, of 20% (even Dubya manages 30%). So what does she do? Instead of taking care of the problems and issues of America, or even that of her home state California (which faces tens of billions of deficit and has to fire 10,000 teachers per the budget cut by Schwarzenegger), Pelosi does what every single red blooded American pol would - take cheap shots at China.

Double Standard -

Thanks for your post. From the American perspective three questions need to be
asked -

a) how is autocracy better than theocracy?
b) how do the Tibetan people view the Chinese occupation?
c) why do communist regimes invariably suppress religious expression? Or more generally, any point of view that differs with official government policy??

And in summary, how will the answers compare to the point of view that you've offered here??

You can argue that it doesn't matter in the least, since China is firmly in charge of Tibet and fully expects to remain in that position.

On the other hand, we say that 'might doesn't always make right'. In the end, you're defending the philosophically indefensible, which is your prerogative.

On the other hand, we see Taiwan electing a nationalist party president that seems far more inclined toward rapproachment with China compared to previous governments - but clearly from a position of power, at least compared to Tibet (their situation appeals to our humanitarian instincts, but otherwise has no impact on our foreign policy whatsoever).

Had Taiwan not been such a strategically importent political entity for the USA since 1949,
along with the accompanying military support they've received, they would not be equipped to bargain with China on relatively equal footing today. I believe Taiwan will ultimately remain governmentally independent, and to a far greater degree than Hong Kong by comparison.

By the way, I expect the Olympics to come off without a hitch - there's too much at stake politically and economically for any other outcome. Tibet is already old news.........

As we say, 'it all depends on who you know' ..... recent articles have pointed out that Tibet has few real friends in the world, and expects very little in the way of external support - and all because no one has a political stake in Tibet.

PS. China needs to do something about their air pollution problem.......healthcare costs are going to go through the roof.

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Perspective,

Very good that you refrained from insulting me. Now we can have a discussion.

The point that I was contending was that you earlier said Tibetans were persecuted and their culture was repressed by the Chinese. This is not true in the sense that they weren't specifically targetted. I'll explain below.

Tibetans aren't persecuted because of their ethnicity. Any Tibetan who were persecuted were due to their political activities. The fact that many Tibetan monks and nuns were arrested is because they were a theocracy. It's only natural that many of their political activists were the clergy. Those monks who weren't politically active weren't touched. This can be seen by any objective observation on the ground. I can only assume that the reason why this myth is constantly perpetuated in the West is because many Americans would draw a parallel between Jews and Tibetans if Americans believed that Tibetans were persecuted either because of religion or race.

I have a similar observation on the supposed cultural repression. It's true that some objects and buildings of cultural significance were destroyed. But when did it happen? It happened during the Cultural Revolution where the cultural heritage of Tibetans, Han Chinese, and other Chinese ethnicities were destroyed at that time. Since the Cultural Revolution, Mao was sidelined and the new administration tried to repair the damage wrought during that time.

(A good book to read is "The Struggle for a Modern Tibet". You don't have to read it; you can just read the editorial review at Amazon. [ http://www.amazon.com/Struggle-Modern-Tibet-Autobiography-Tsering/dp/0765605090 ]. Does what you read there line up with what you believe about Tibet and China?)

This is something that the "Free Tibet" people don't tell you. They want the world to believe that their suffering was different and special. It isn't. Everybody in China were on the same boat. The solution for Tibetans is the solution for all of China. For practicality, it would be much easier to endeavour to improve all of China through dialogue rather than try to carve out Tibet. The latter approach will lead to deaths, destruction, and more suffering.

My simple suggestion is 1). Do not watch the games but get the snippets of your interests on the internet. 2). Boycott the products that are being shown on NBC for just 3 weeks.

Simple solution, if you believe Tibet has a right of religious autonomy.

The US has no moral authority at all.

.. as long as we continue to supply cluster bombs to the Israelis to bomb
hundreds of innocent Lebanese civilians...

...give armanents to Israel to complete the genocide of Palestine.

..and grab more than 46% of the West Bank, settling and building roads while yelling 'defense'...

American diplomats and officials are being told that regularly when they fish abroad. LET'S STAUNCH OUR OWN EVIL, THEN POINT FINGERS ELSEWHERE!

The US has no moral authority at all.

.. as long as we continue to supply cluster bombs to the Israelis to bomb
hundreds of innocent Lebanese civilians...

...give armanents to Israel to complete the genocide of Palestine.

..and grab more than 46% of the West Bank, settling and building roads while yelling 'defense'...

American diplomats and officials are being told that regularly when they fish abroad. LET'S STAUNCH OUR OWN EVIL, THEN POINT FINGERS ELSEWEHERE!

The grownups in history, have demonstrated that
the way to change a society, or a group, however
small, is to engage. Integrate them.

Infiltrate, has been used. Convince by deed.

Still, the right wingers and their toadies think
closing the door and hssing and dissing will change the day. Even in countries as powerful as China, who hold enough of our debt to sink us. We're gonna ignore them?

Shades foreign policy by George Bush.It's gone so well.

Having squandered our moral authority in the world by invading Iraq and
supporting the Israli's cluster bombing and
genocide in Palestine, we're in no shape to
hiss at anyone else. Now, and maybe never again.

Double Standard -

And once again, let's take the example of thousands of Tibetan monasteries destroyed, with monks killed and imprisoned...and of course Tibet's complete lack of political autonomy today. How many thousands of Tibetans do you suppose were killed when China invaded for the last time in 1959?? You may not have even been born at that point. China rules Tibet politically with an iron hand and that's not in dispute either - and yet thus far you haven't seen a single example of Tibet's repression by China??

How many thousands of examples do you need??? And just to clarify - the Dalai Lama has sought half-way measures with China, rather than total independence for Tibet. All he's asking for is political self-rule based on Tibet's cultural identity, rather than complete national autonomy....this is part of his Middle Way philosophy - and in fact the Buddhist school of thought that he follows.

This fact is not in dispute either - when people have no choice (under force of military might) as to how they will be ruled and who will rule them -that's called political and cultural repression or totalitarian rule, if you prefer.

On the other hand, the USA admittedly needs to stop trying to impose our own westernized political system of democratic rule on countries that aren't ready for it, don't want it, and can't function culturally under it's secular democratic guidelines.

Democracy evolves naturally when many other elements are in place. It can't be forced - either most recently in Iraq or in Vietnam, as another example. Still and all, the fact that our government won't stand up for Tibet is pure hypocrisy, based on economic interests.

I strongly suspect that you have no sympathy whatsoever for freedom of unhindered religious expression. In contrast to that position, of all the primary religions in the world, my strongest sympathies are with Buddhist thought, although I'm not a practitioner or follower of that or any religious faith.

When you repress religion in Tibet, you've oppressed the entire culture so parsing out religion as a 'single' and exceptional instance of political repression doesn't hold water.

In fact, Tibet has been thrown under the bus by the entire world, USA and India included, for the sole reason of maintaining economic ties with China - who we know brooks no 'interference' in it's 'internal affairs' - human rights are so limited in China and Tibet that those living in either place probably wouldn't be all that familiar with the concept - BTW you should be very glad you're not living in Tibet yourself.

As I read over your posts I realize you may be a westerner after all - which would make your mind-set all the more tragic. It's unfortunate indeed that you harbor no sympathies for Tibet's plight, but then you're not alone, are you??

Good day to you.....

perspective said:
"China's repression and oppression of religious expression in modern times isn't in doubt here, is it?? "

Nope, that's not in doubt - there's limited religious freedom in the PRC. Now I ask you a fourth time -- give me a concrete example of Tibetan persecution or cultural repression (not talking about religion)

You know nothing about me. It's futile of you to keep throwing out accusations in a lame attempt to keep insulting me. Sticks and stone, you know.

DOUBLE STANDARD AND HELLODUDE -

What, you guys can't read?? Yes, tradition has it that Bodhidharma brought Buddhism to China about 600 C.E. but this is clearly part myth and part truth - in fact, Buddhism was extant in China long before. Of course this is really part of the Zen tradition - religion is always part myth and part truth.

In any event, Double Standard tells us that China destroyed not only monasteries in Tibet, but in China as well - isn't that what I said?? The extinction of religion was clearly enunciated in the philosophy of communism as ridding society of the clerical ruling class - this was clearly implemented in Tibet....no religion, and no religious hierarchy - down with the Dalai Lama .... we get it. You guys give atheism a bad name!

China's repression and oppression of religious expression in modern times isn't in doubt here, is it?? That, of course, is a gross infringement on personal and individual rights as we have clearly outlined in our own Constitution - and we know that the concept of individual rights is not a feature of communism in any way, shape, or form. This should not be in dispute. We all know that the mental construct of 'the common good' is the prevailing operational concept - and we know how that tends to work out.

There is either balance in life, or there is totalitarianism - I believe Confucious, not to mention Lao Tzu, first pointed this out as a fundamental law of Tao, and therefore the universe. If you would only get back to your roots, you'd see the error of your ways.

Reading Karl Marx, your spiritual forefather, you will see that the 'common good' prevails over individual rights. Are both of you so steeped in China-think that you live in that far-distant state of self-denial??

If the two of you and your friend Tongluren are really Chinese, then your obtuseness is excusable.
Your hyper-rationalism does smack of Western influences, however.

If you're living here be thankful - if you're living in China be thankful you're not living here. How's that for balance??

perspective:

Reasoning of logic 101, You first bring up your claims. Then you use concrete and reputable evidence to support your claims. You seem to be very lacking in this area.

The Western Medias have a much more intense orgasam when it is Tibent related. Thus it has nothing but one sided stoires. The western propganda machine runs in full capacity.

Tibetan said:
"Tibet was never willingly part of China not in language, politics, religion, culture or any other sense, it was effectively free before 1800's and after 1913. .... China swallow your pride and let Tibet enjoy its freedom."

Hmmm, you seem to be contradicting your supreme illustrious leader, the Dalai Lama. He's very much willing to have Tibet as a part of China. (That's his official stance.) Or maybe China's leaders' suspicions are correct -- that the Dalai Lama really does want separation.

perspective said:
"Is it any surprise that our Chinese apologists here would tell a different story??"

There you go again, the insults continue from someone who has nothing substantial to say.

perspective said:
"Tibet's religious traditions come from India, whereas their political and religous oppression comes from China - many thousands of Tibet's Buddhist monasteries were destroyed by the Chinese, and countless numbers of Buddhist monks were either killed or imprisioned. "

Buddhism originated from India! China's Buddhist traditions came from India. Does that mean China isn't Chinese? Many of the rest of China's Buddhist monasteries were destroyed by the Chinese too. These things weren't isolated to Tibet. ***So I ask you again for the third time -- give me a concrete example of Tibetan persecution or cultural repression.***

As for the rest of your post, all that verbosity but not an iota of relevance.

We see the prevailing Chinese attitude toward the Tibet freedom movement in the news today. Polls indicate that the Chinese population fully supports 'crushing' the protest movement. Is it any surprise that our Chinese apologists here would tell a different story??

Googling 'China in Tibet' brings all kinds of interesting information regarding China's invasion, etc. Wiki gives a fairly complete historical synopsis of the situation.

In fact, Tibet lies between India and China, much as Kashmir lies between Pakistan and India - stratetic political/religious domination of these neutral land masses is no different in kind in either case. This is what occupation is all about, after all. Just because the USA is guilty of the same offenses in Iraq is no reason not to call attention to events transpiring in Tibet.

Tibet's religious traditions come from India, whereas their political and religous oppression comes from China - many thousands of Tibet's Buddhist monasteries were destroyed by the Chinese, and countless numbers of Buddhist monks were either killed or imprisioned.

Lenin, Stalin, and Mao knew that for communism to succeed it would be necessary to stamp out every vestige of religion - thus we have a false dicotomy in this country between communist totalitarianism and it's murderous, oppressive practices, and the secular humanist form of atheism found in America today - certainly they are universes apart.

The vast differences between the historical and socio-cultural matrices of communism and secular democracy as a context for religious suppression has been completely overlooked by the zealous religionists (Christians) in the USA that would equate the two forms of atheism. Atheism in this country is barely a ripple on the geopolitical landscape, compared to the Christianity based mania that rules the land!

Oddly enough, Bill Clinton is in the news today for a politically charged remark that brought into question Obama's patriotism - Obama's campaign quickly compared the remark to McCarthyism - and how can we forget the 1950's political witchhunt for 'godless communists and comunist sympathizers' that resulted in ruined careers and the blacklisting of both the famous and not-so-famous for both real and imagined associations with the American brand of communism (more accurately socialism) as found in the USA in the 1950's - the very antithesis of good old red-blooded American patriotism in those days when bomb shelters and the 'communist scare' was everywhere......

Frankly our government has been acting just a wee bit too Chinese for the comfort of many voters in recent years - we hope to rectify that problem come November.....unfortunately for the PRC they have no such voting option, other than to fall in line and love their government. Pitiful little North Korea is pretty much in the same boat, only without resources. They love their government even while starving to death - what does that say??

It's always nice to have options.........

The western medias are on drugs wher=neever there are Tibet related riots. I did not see them get high when China cracked down on the Chinese riots.

2 Guys are taking a dump. One guy tells the other "Dude you have turd on your ass. Let me wipe it for you." The other guy turns around and see that guy is still working on his own business yet he is offering a helping hand. So he tells the first guy "Thank you. I know I might have turd on my ass. But I doubt your sincerity of helping me since you should have cleaned up yourself first before you try to help anyone else. Oh please do not tell me that brown thingy is not turd just because it is out of you."

Tibten:
Your reasoning is flawed. The PLA liberated China in 1949 too. Are you telling me that China was not part of China? Now you see how flawed one of your arguments is. The Brits lost its grip on the US becuase They could not hold onto it by force anymore. So You should arm yourself and fight for you freedom too. The US is a perfect example for you guys to learn. See how powerful this country is. It is so poweful that for the past 4 years,it has been bombing the hell out of a country that did absolutly no harm to it. Maybe one day you guys could bomb the hell out China too.

Tibet was never willingly part of China not in language, politics, religion, culture or any other sense, it was effectively free before 1800's and after 1913. It even signed border treaties independently with British India, ancient Ladakh, Sikkim, Bhutan, Nepal in the past 1000 years. Why did the People's Liberation Army LIBERATE Tibet in 1951 if it was always part of China??? By that logic British have much stronger claim over The US and Canada and Spain should usurp all of Latin America. Or what about Pakistan and Bangladesh that were carved out of Indian provinces thats not even colonial, it was the heartland of a 5000 year old nation, do you see them crying over it??? if it was always part of China, why did China sign a treaty with British in 1900 agreeing that Tibet will not be converted into a Chinese province like they did to Aba, Parts of Gansu and Qinghai??? China swallow your pride and let Tibet enjoy its freedom.

Who will be this summer's Jesse Owens?

and will China ever find Sun's Three Principles of People; Government of the People, By the People, For the People ?

or will it remain, forever Lost over some Horizon, like a distant faded memory?

perspective said:
"The Chinese propagandists are out in force. So much for 6 degrees of separation. They are us..."

Just wow. You provide no example to back up your counter-arguments, yet you accuse others who disagree with you as shills for the Chinese government. You try to distract the discourse by uttering Tiananmen, in Dubya-style "9/11" or "Al-qaeda" whenever he's asked an unrelated question.

So I ask you again -- give me a concrete example of Tibetan persecution or cultural repression.

But then upon further reflection I am thankful that China does not mistake irresponsibility for freedom, and does not allow guns in civilian hands. Even with savagery as raw as what you can see, killing someone using sticks and stones takes quite a bit of effort. The situation would have been much worse if there were guns.

Looking at the Youtube footage, it is shocking to note the savagery of the rioters. I don't remember the Compton blacks being anywhere close to being so vicious. They chase down pedestrians (presumably any Han or Ui), and literally beat them to death. You can hear the thap-thapping of the sticks hitting flesh right there on the screen.

Such savages must be brought to justice. That's what any civilized society must do to deter further violence and unrest.

The Chinese's biggest "sin" was in not pushing assimilation as early and as hard as the Americans or the Brits. Tibet had been part of China for 700 years and there simply had not been efforts to make them more like the Hans. That was a mistake. Looking back at history, even the most powerful of the invading tribes - the Mongols, the Manchus, were all brought to heel and "converted" to Chinese. What were the powers that be thinking when they decided that all Tibetan natives should learn the Tibetan script, for example? With the advent of New China and the abolishment of the Dalai led serfdom, which counted less than 5% literacy in the written Tibetan language, there was truly a golden opportunity to assimilate - much like what the Americans did to California - except not as extreme and brutal.

Were the last two generations of natives in the Tibetan SAR educated in Pu Tong Hua only, the assimilation process would have been much smoother.

Just could not understand why.

Tongluran - of course the Chinese don't have a corner on brutality and repression. They're just very good at it.

Personally my favorite Chinese era was the Tang Dynasty era - some great Chan practitioners from those days.....they really had a handle on 'enlightenment'. Do read Hui Neng and Huang Po
at the first opportunity.....

Among their contemporary spiritual successors are the Dzogchen & Tantric Buddhist practitioners of Tibet - the China of today unfortunately has no one left to carry on that exceedingly noble tradition - human transcendence, that is.

Japan also does a much better job of it now - Chan has become Zen.

China is busy becoming the world's next consumer's paradise - two steps forward and one step back has always been the rule for human progress.

What is good must be universal. If America wants a continued freedom of action, it cannot assert a double standard for others.

911 killed 3,000, but did not demand territory from the united States. Yet it is deemed proper to flatten two nations, and the war goes on.

The Tibetan detractors have already killed, brutally, more than 15 (1/200th of 911), and have caused over $200,000,000 in property damage - that is not counting the losses due to the slowdown in tourism and the economy, etc. Moreover, they are demanding secession for "Greater Tibet," an area which is 1/4 the size of China territorially.

The last time the southerners asked for 1/3 of America, what price was President Lincoln willing to pay (and the nation did pay)? China is nowhere close to doing that much - the riot suppression is less than 1/10,000th the violence used by America.

Why the fuss? Unrest is unrest. When Compton boiled over in riots, America never hesitated from sending in 15,000 fully armed soldiers to quell the unrest, and the nation applauded, even though those put down were ethnic minorities (blacks) long known to be oppressed, as no amount of alleged oppression can and will justify violence by the rioters.

1989 was so very yesteryear.

For an update of what brutal suppression and ethnic cleansing is, go look at the West Bank and Gaza - fully sanctioned by the good people of the U.S. of A., or at least done in their good name anyway.

Or for more lively action, go see the bombed out ruins in Iraq. No we are not talking about the IED kind, which are so primitive. We are talking about the high tech, thousands of pounds at a time aerial bombing that takes out "terrorists", no doubt, some of the time - but which inevitably flattens villages and kills hapless women and children.

But then again it is so much cheaper and easier to just point fingers at big bad China!!! Ye bleeding hearts are so cheap.

The Chinese propagandists are out in force. So much for 6 degrees of separation. They are us...

Rarely have we seen the King's English used in the pursuit of selling such a huge load of dog droppings. And we know how rare dogs are in China - very tasty!!

We'll usually buy anything but we're tapped out at the moment - I perceive there are no takers on the uplifting if mythical tale of how China resurrected Tibet and turned it into a modern if ungrateful nation. Admittedly, deeply frustrated and suppressed people can turn ugly.....

And back to infamous Tiananmen Square - in the news today. It will probably be off limits during the Olympics, because of the high risk of very much unwanted protest actions. Talk about spoiling a party!!

And besides, who wants to conjure up those ugly memories from 1989??

"China makes our Happy Meals possible."

What has 50 years of brutally oppressive culturally genocidal ethnic cleansing commie rule over Tibet wrought?

1. Literacy (read and write) rate in the Tibetan written language ROSE from 5% to 85% - mind you we are not talking about Pu Tong Hua (the main Chinese language) here.

2. Life expectancy ROSE from 35 years to over 65.

3. The population of the Tibetan SAR remains over 90% native (how does that compare to California?).

4. Women, who used to be lower than dirt under the 14 incarnations of Dalai, today are productive, happy members of society, and they are judges, police, teachers, college students, entrepreneurs, you name it.

5. The vast majority of the Tibetan SAR legislators are native. They even voted the SAR a shorter work week (35 hours) compared to the whole country.

6. Tibetan culture has never been as vibrant and well promoted. There are literally tens of millions more volumes of books printed in the Tibetan script since the beginning of New China. Tibetan song and dances are celebrated on national TV. When was the last time you saw native American culture on mainstream American TV?

7. Like all other ethnic minorities in China, Tibetan natives enjoy dispensations not available to the Hans. Natives can have multiple children while the Hans have to live with one only. Natives have reserved seats to go to Universities at subsidized tuition rates. Native college grads also find it much easier to get cushy jobs than the over 1 million Han college grads that are still looking for jobs.

There is justification for resentment - the majority Han are vexed by the few rabble rouser ingrates amongst the Tibetan natives, and wonder if it the "dissidents" are not just pogeny of serf owners who yearn for the "good ol' days" when the Dalai and his ruling clique owned everything - including the over 80% of the natives that were turned into illiterate serfs.

perspective said:
"They're pining away for that old worn-out theocracy run by the Dalai Lama, lest we forget (whereas in reality they're pining away for peace, freedom from persecution, the freedom of full cultural expression, and the re-installation of political autonomy as opposed to Chinese hegemony). "

"pining for peace" - yeah, they're pining for peace by beating up on other ethnicities (Han, Hui)

"freedom from persecution" - oh, come on. You make it sound like Jews in 1930's Germany. How exactly are Tibetans being persecuted just because they are ethnic Tibetans? Give me one solid example.

"freedom of full cultural expression" - huh? got examples?

"re-installation of political autonomy as opposed to Chinese hegemony" - okay, you got a partial point there. Tibet is semi-autonomous. They don't have as much autonomy as Hong Kong, but they have more autonomy than other Chinese provinces. For the past 700 years, they never had sovereignty, but rather suzerainty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzerainty

double standard said:
"Repression of Tibet? yes. Invasion of Tibet? I am not so sure. Before the communists arrived in the 1950s, there was no talk of Tibetan independence, and even Dalai Lama was very comfortable with the Chinese ruler and admired communism system (well, big mistake from hindsight!and the Chinese made a big mistake too by welcoming the communists at that time)."

When the Communists walked into Tibet in 1950, there was no resistance from the Dalai Lama group. It was well understood between the two parties that the Lama class can still enjoy all the privileges that they had enjoyed during the past seven centuries since Chinese Imperial rule. It was not until 1959, after nine years of "supposed Chinese repression", that the Communists started applying collectivist land reforms to Tibet (meaning that they took the Lamas' lands and re-distributed them to the Tibetan serfs) that the Lamas revolted. That's the real reason for the uprising in 1959, and the Dalai Lama's eventual exile.

Yes, Claire, go do some research and look that up.

PS: Did I mention that in 1950, when the Communist arrived in Tibet, they immediately abolished Tibetan slavery? Go look that up too.

FunTravelAdventure said:

"But under no circumstances can our invasion of Afghanistan, a country that was in large part responsible for the attacks on the US, be compared to China's invasion and repression of Tibet, a country that has done nothing to China."

My point was not to compare the invasion of Afghanistan to the invasion of Tibet. Re-read my post carefully. My point was that the Dalai Lama regime is worse than the Communists. Under the Lama, eyes were gouged and noses were cut off for those who dissented. It was also common for boys in the Lama's monastery to be sexually abused by the monks. Read the story of Tashi Tsering.
http://www.amazon.com/Struggle-Modern-Tibet-Autobiography-Tsering/dp/0765605090

The world will be a much better place without theocracies.

Your hypothetical scenario about a Tibetan terrorist attack is a straw man argument.

yep.

Epthorn,

you said: “Nobody likes a party-pooper. If your ideas regarding the Tibet situation are to go back in a time-machine and stop the American genocide, cool, good luck. Otherwise you're just that annoying guy at the party who keeps pointing out that local ordinances are being violated”

There is a lot of truth in what you said
Yes, nobody likes a party-pooper. Everyone is happy by believing that the emperor is actually not naked. I admire many people in the pro-Tibet crowd, but the rest of them are just like they are gong to a party: it is cool and trendy to relate themselves to Tibet, Dalai Lama, Sushi, oriental tattoo, anti-globalization…

It doesn’t matter whether we have a time machine to reserve the wrong we did to the native Indians. My speculation is that, even if we have a time machine, no one would actually want to use it despite all of those lip services. No one would actually want to give up our current high level of living standards. Giving out casino licenses to the Indians is the most we can do, which kind of remove our guilt without affecting us financially too much. Human beings are selfish.

If China retreats from Tibet, what would happen to the millions of Chinese settlers there? You may say that: why did you invade and occupy Tibet in the first place? You made a mistake and should be responsible for the consequences.What go around come around....

Well, why did Europeans settled in Americas then? Are you willing to turn over whatever you have (properties, land, government) back to the native Indians now if they outnumber you in this country? I am sure many Americans would be put off by even the smallest inconvenience that they would have to share the roads with horses. Giving away Casino licenses is much easier, protesting about Tibet is much easier, protesting against globalization and big corporations is much easier (we need to party sometimes anyway)

I am not saying that what Chinese is doing in Tibet is right. I am just saying that being nice doesn’t pay off in a world that no one is actually behaving nice. We are still in a world where jungle rule prevails. Is it good? I am sure it isn’t. But let’s not pretend that other people are behaving any different from what you are doing.

to FunTravelAdventure:

I don’t expect you to defend Bush’s invasion of Iraq, and thus I don’t expect anyone to Boycott America or America-related products.

Similarly, few Chinese citizens support the communist government, and I don’t see why boycotting China or Olympics or Chinese products would make any sense. A boycott never harms a government, it simply punish the poor people who are already punished by its own government everyday. Yes, Taliban harbored terrorists, but not all Afghanistan people are Talibans.

And I don’t see why civilian ethnic-Chinese should be attacked by the Tibetans mobs (you can find the videos on youtube). Granted, not all Tibetans are mobs, and Chinese government kill its own people too; but shouldn’t the media be a little bit more balanced in reporting? I am particularly disgusted by the fact that some networks put up photos of Nepali/Indian police beating up protestors and claimed that those were taken in the recent Tibetan events. Also, photos of injured ethnic-Chinese were claimed to be ethnic-Tibetans. I know that all Asian look the same to Westerners, but shouldn’t journalists be better trained than ordinary people and at least tell the difference of army/cop uniforms in the geographic areas they cover.

Repression of Tibet? yes. Invasion of Tibet? I am not so sure. Before the communists arrived in the 1950s, there was no talk of Tibetan independence, and even Dalai Lama was very comfortable with the Chinese ruler and admired communism system (well, big mistake from hindsight!and the Chinese made a big mistake too by welcoming the communists at that time). The communist regime oppresses both ethnic Chinese and Tibetans in China, but saying that Chinese invaded Tibet would be the same as saying that Saddam's Iraq invaded the Republic of Turks or the Republic of the Sunnis. It is not like Fidel has invaded Miami!

How quickly they forget the 1989 PRC suppression of the summer protests in Tiananmen Square in Beijing - anywhere from 200-2000 killed, depending on whose figures you trust.

This is somehow different from the current suppression of the Tibet independence protests???
I think not - but go ahead and blame it on the Tibetans. They're pining away for that old worn-out theocracy run by the Dalai Lama, lest we forget (whereas in reality they're pining away for peace, freedom from persecution, the freedom of full cultural expression, and the re-installation of political autonomy as opposed to Chinese hegemony).

Yes, that would probably include the Dalai Lama as the figurative head of a Tibetan government along with the freedom to practice both Buddhism and the native Bon religions - perhaps much like the tradition of the Royal Family of England and The Church of England.

On the other hand, when it comes to religion, I can't support a male-dominated theocracy and/or clergy whether it be Buddhist or Catholic - this can't possibly be proper practice of the Dharma, or a correct application of the Sermon on the Mount, for that matter.

Curiously, women in Tibet were once so scare that it was about the only place in the world that sustained the cultural practice of polyandry - where women could have multiple husbands.

I'm sure all that has changed dramatically.....

Double, Don't expect me to defend bush's invasion of Iraq. As far as I'm concerned, bush is a war criminal for invading a country that did absolutely nothing to the USA.

On the other hand, the Taliban protected Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan and allowed him and Al Qaida to train, recruit, and plan their attacks on the United States. We not only had a right to go into Afghanistan, we had an absolute obligation to do so.

Unfortunately, george bush had a personal vendetta against Saddam Hussien and used our military, our treasurey and the lives of our military personell to settle the score.

But under no circumstances can our invasion of Afghanistan, a country that was in large part responsible for the attacks on the US, be compared to China's invasion and repression of Tibet, a country that has done nothing to China.

But back to my point that if 19 Tibetans had hijacked four China Air airliners and crashed them into three of China's most famous and important building, killing over 3,000 innocent people, there would be a bloodbath the likes of which hasn't been seen since the Chinese backed Kmer Rouge eliminated 1/3 of the Cambodian people during Pol Pot's reign of terror.

Now Double, tell me I'm wrong.

The native Indian example may be too old. How about the War in Iraq. I would laugh my butt off if you guys tell me that America wants to brig democracy to Iraq. There are so many repressive governments in the world. Go liberate them one by one. Clair, did you do anything about it such as boycotting your own gov? Come on

Oh, you show them, Claire Hoffman.

What better way to protest human rights violations is there than not watching a sporting contest on TV?

Oh, you show them, Claire Hoffman.

What better way to protest human rights violations is there than not watching a sporting contest on TV?

epthorn, You are wrong about that the Chinese gov does not want to change. Democracy is absolutely a good thing. All Chinese want to be able to truly elect their leaders. But on thing you should know is that China is too huge to change overnight. Do you think a bloody revolution is better than a peaceful transition? In addition, a bloody revolution might result in another repressive gov. China wants stability now and she has to improve the standard of living to a certain level where people can start talking about democracy.
I am actually very disgusted by the Western Medias reporting the riots in Tibet. 99% are one sided stories.

You guys can stop all the bullxxxx now. Nothing in China will change by your efforts.

300 here vs. 1.3 billion there, come on, be easy on yourself.

Good Friday?!!!. what is it? If it is really good, I should be given a day off.. -:)

China this, US that, please, let's have a good weekend..Get a life!

Instead of following the examples of Bonnie Lass, Hoffman and Bonnie Prince Charlie, I say, leave the decision of a boycott to the International Criminal Court.

I'm sure China will obey its edict.

Instead of following the examples of Bonnie Lass, Hoffman and Bonnie Prince Charlie, I say, leave the decision of a boycott to the International Criminal Court.

I'm sure China will obey its edict.

double standard:,

What do you want? Yes, the Native Americans got screwed over but good 200 years ago. In some ways, they're still getting screwed over. So, because of that you want us to ignore all other problems in the world that are at their peak right now? All other problems that maybe we could do something about? Or do you want us to just wring our hands about how terrible we are and how the whole world is better than us?

Nobody likes a party-pooper. If your ideas regarding the Tibet situation are to go back in a time-machine and stop the American genocide, cool, good luck. Otherwise you're just that annoying guy at the party who keeps pointing out that local ordinances are being violated.

double standard:,

What do you want? Yes, the Native Americans got screwed over but good 200 years ago. In some ways, they're still getting screwed over. So, because of that you want us to ignore all other problems in the world that are at their peak right now? All other problems that maybe we could do something about? Or do you want us to just wring our hands about how terrible we are and how the whole world is better than us?

Nobody likes a party-pooper. If your ideas regarding the Tibet situation are to go back in a time-machine and stop the American genocide, cool, good luck. Otherwise you're just that annoying guy at the party who keeps pointing out that local ordinances are being violated.

If one rules out boycotting the games, there is no incentive for the Chinese govt to change its behavior. Why bother talking about it?

FunTravelAdventure said:

"You truly are an idiot. If 19 Tibetans had hijacked 4 China Air airliners, and crashed them into china's biggest buildings killing over 3,000 people and costing their country Trillions of Dollars, there wouldn't be a Tibetan left anywhere on earth."

No, you're the true idiot. I support the war in Afghanistan as a response to the 911 attacks, as with the rest of America. What I don't support is the re-installation of an oppressive theocracy in Central Asia (Dalai Lama).

That was over a generation ago. People have short memories. Mao's been DEAD for a long time, and even in China he's found to be 70/30 right/wrong so he is certainly not deified to any degree. So it seems that the Chinese have seen the light, and recast their brand of communism as "Socialism With Chinese Characteristics", which in the last 30 years just happen to be the best performing form of government in human history.

Today, China holds over 1.5 trillion in foreign currency reserves, and graduates 5 times more engineers and scientists than America. Its EAST fusion reactor is the ONLY one of its kind in the world, built with a measly $20 million.

What dies Mao have to do with the price of rice in China today??

Tongluren:

Communism/Mao is indeed a "man-made cult" that caused at least 30 million unnatural death. Don't you agree?

You can personally disagree with it (especially those who argue that their God is the one and only, and that all other so called Gods are idols, probably would), but it appears that the Chinese system on religious freedom is at least RATIONAL.

1. Everyone is free to worship whatever God or gods or deities, or choose agnosticism, or choose not to believe (atheism). Religion is between a person