Dear China: I'm Turned Off, Tuned Out

"Certainly there will be resentment among the Chinese people toward countries that boycott the event. Even expressing a desire for it will upset us," said Niu Jun, a foreign-affairs professor at Beijing University."

Well, too bad buddy, we are tired and sick of your repressive government, of your tainted products, of your horrible quality control and of your rapacious quest for wealth at the expense of the entire globe.

Claire, you have good intentions, but your willful ignorance promotes the most horrid evils.

5 Chinese girls were just burned alive with gasoline. Other innocent civilians have been beaten to death, unprovoked. Not to mention all the rampant shop burnings.

It's definitely true the Chinese government hasn't been doing enough for the economic inequalities and unfair class divide between Chinese business people and Tibetans, which is their driving point of protest.

But you overlooking the bloody violence and not even mentioning it in your article? This isn't even about the Olympics anymore. This is about you being completely primal and insane for your blind causes. Stop proclaiming how you'll turn off your TV, and start being reasonable for all the innocent victims here. Else you're just encouraging the worst methods that makes a bad situation despicable.

Why not extend your influence? Boycott the corporate sponsors of the televised broadcasts. By financially supporting China's enterprise, advertisers must be prepared to be accused of complicity, or have their reputations rightfully tarnished. If political incidents become uglier, advertisers must themselves become boycotters, or be boycotted.

Excellent idea - instead of waiting for governments and corporations to do anything (which they won't, given the economic investments and foolish greed), the most effective way to fight the Chinese government is for the people (we the consumers) to take a stand and boycott - not just the Olympics, but products.

Anyone who has seen the changes the Chinese have brought to Tibet, even if we 'overlooked' past tortures of monks and nuns, would understand why the Tibetans are protesting - and remember, these began as peaceful protests by monks before the Chinese army came in. How would anyone feel about being occupied? To reduce the situation to 'economic disparity' or isolated 'acts of violence' is to sidestep the greater question of self-determination

We should end the Olympics entirely.

Every time there's an Olympics, there is corruption and boycott efforts. It's as if the sole purpose of the Olympics is political, not athletic. So just don't have them anymore. They are a relic of the Cold War, where America dominated, smaller countries showcased themselves, and the Soviets were vanquished.

Honestly, it's sad to see so many trying to boycott the Olympics while only citing the suffering of the Tibetans.

What about the Chinese people themselves? Where is the huge media attention on them? The Chinese government itself has already admitted that there are thousands of violent riots going on inside China caused by ethnic Chinese.

I remember just last year there was leaked footage of a small village where Chinese were in involved in a violent protest against the corruption of their local officials. There was a bloody crackdown there, as well as here.

Where was the outcry? Where were the calls for boycott? There was some, but not nearly on the same level as I have seen here.

All in all, it gives the impression that somehow there are those who view the suffering of the Tibetans as more severe than that of the Chinese, By their own people.

I can't accurately label it as hypocrisy, I can't quite label it as ignorance.

But what it definitely is, is just sickening.

China is a major buyer of US Treasury debt and Wall Street may need a portion of China's trillion in reserves to bail out the future employers of its representatives in Washington. Why create any trouble for a large market player, expecially when there are no Chinese American votes to be won by doing so?

Its much easier to imagine the US imposing sanctions on Tibet or the Dalai Lama, possibly putting Buddhist monks on the same black list as Hamas or FARC. Money talks.

Cuba and Burma deserve so much more criticism and high-handed sanctions, for obvious reasons.

China's greatest fear is that hosting the Olympic Games puts it at risk of some "public embarassment" of the sort that affliced Mexico in 1968. The tactics to prevent that are threefold:

1) Public control and security measures on par with the 1936 Games.

2) A diversionary PR campaign to identify any opposition with Al Qaeda, a strategy which seems to work in the USA.

3) Sanitized control over TV broadcast access and content. Murdoch will make sure that no media feeds or content will offend the PRC. Other media moghuls will show identical self-restraint. The official censor will probably not have to cut any wires or pull any plugs.

4) Expert coordination of drug tests so that the urine samples reported for PRC competitors will show no hormones, steroids, or stimulants. Yes, they will find samples devoid of flaws, log them into a registry, and have all the records AAA.

As long as Olympic teams, and games, are sponsored by the governments of of the various countries of the world, they will remain political.

The only way to change that would be for the athletes to sponsor themselves.

"One World, One Dream... At Any Cost". I'll turn off the T.V as I already see how far the Chinese has gone to wipe out Tibetan people and their culture. It's about time to show the Chinese government my resentment toward their behaviors on human rights.

Free from Repression - "...and remember, these began as peaceful protests by monks before the Chinese army came in. How would anyone feel about being occupied? To reduce the situation to 'economic disparity' or isolated 'acts of violence' is to sidestep the greater question of self-determination.."

^---Well first the Chinese army isn't involved yet. Second, I was pretty sure the overwhelming police response occurred after the riots turned violent, which still doesn't excuse the violence.

Third, humanitarian rights are first, foremost, and the final, but not political secession that disrupts the political underpinnings and security of all residents.

Obviously China shouldn't have taken up Tibet 60 years ago, which is just as worse, but as of right now, things should be changed internally, not blindly:

1) Only 60% of ethnic Tibetans are government employees for Tibet, which should be improved first to reflect the ethnic composition better.
2) Better autonomy overall similar to other provinces like Taiwan.
3) Better educational programs.

Again, self-determination should be via representation. Not political secession like some native american tribes have wanted, and especially not through violence.

Let’s allow the Chinese to occupy Tibet for 200 years, then the Chinese will get civilized and will let the Tibetan to operate some Casinos and allocate some reserved land for the Tibetans to camp; maybe build some museums/monuments for them too.
Wasn’t this the same deal the European settlers got 200 years ago? We got this great deal and have been living in prosperity ever since, and now we are not allowing the Chinese to do the same? Isn’t this hypocrisy?
I know, I know, we are now trying to compensate the native Indians for the wrong we did to them in the past. But I don’t see anyone here volunteer to leave America and give the land back to native Indians. Isn’t this hypocrisy? Why the double standard? If you truly feel sorry for the native Indians, you have to leave this land, not just say sorry, build museums, give casino licenses. I know you will certainly say “oh, that’s different” when you are asked to give up your own wealth/prosperity/benefits that you are enjoying on this occupied land that should belong to the Native Indians.

How about this: Let’s allow the Chinese to occupy Tibet for 200 years, then the Chinese will get civilized and will let the Tibetan to operate some Casinos and allocate some reserved land for the Tibetans to camp; maybe build some museums/monuments for them too.
Wasn’t this the same deal the European settlers got 200 years ago? We got this great deal and have been living in prosperity ever since, and now we are not allowing the Chinese to do the same? Isn’t this hypocrisy?
I know, I know, we are now trying to compensate the native Indians for the wrong we did to them in the past. But I don’t see anyone here volunteer to leave America and give the land back to native Indians. Isn’t this hypocrisy? Why the double standard? If you truly feel sorry for the native Indians, you have to leave this land, not just say sorry, build museums, give casino licenses. I know you will certainly say “oh, that’s different” when you are asked to give up your own wealth/prosperity/benefits that you are enjoying on this occupied land that should belong to the Native Indians.

I am going to save a lot of $. No TV = less $ on electrical bill. No TV = no beer drinking to support my country = saving $. Anyway, I will have more $ in my pocket, but my country currency is worthless now. Feel sorry for me?

When the US backs its fat bigmac eating ass out of states like hawaii(which it invaded) or countries like iraq, maybe china will consider leaving tibet?

Tibet has been a part of china for thousands of years. And how many countries in the world have a US army presence? Talk bout being occupied, what a farce.

this is the most disgusted blog i have seen, google did such a bad job here by put it on the top list.
the author is not well informed, and did not know
much about the history.
unfortunately she has been to China and still did such a poor job, shame on you!

why don't people do their due diligence before offering an 'expert' view. Just do some research (outside of CNN), and see what really goes on in the rest of the world.

the world is larger than USA, or north america, in fact it's a lot larger, in terms of geography, culture, history, population, we are pretty insignificant actually.

and please, please take what the media shoves down your skull with a grain of salt, or a bag to be safe, today's media is as skewed as it gets, I've seen commercials with less intention to lie and create reaction.

Mess with the Chicom's and Walmart dies....
That's if Big Oil doesn't take'em down first!

......... .k
Genius

Well, I am not fond of China Government.. but the hypocrisy shown in west media just pissed me off as much..
Keep whining and Tibet will remain as a part of China.
China, as this stage and this trend, doesn't need Olympic to boost anything. Even all the western countries boycott, so what?..
Prince Charles, hahaha, a piece a garbage. Royal family?.. who gave him the previllage to be different... He, to me and a lot of average everyday people, just nothing more than a little pampered crying boy. I have more respect to a bus driver than to a crap like him...

I live in US.. and but I hope China sticks to her own ways.... learn from her own mistakes and.. get what she hopes for and deserves.. Listening to what westerns say only make China another Africa..

You can call me whatever, but I will be the one laugh at the last.. wait and see..

To tibetans, no matter what you try and you say,

YOU LOOT, YOU GOT CRASHED.. no mercy here!!

china rules

Go extreme, isolationist policy against China, I hear it will do wonders.

Tibet is so insignificant, much like the Lakota Indians. Random hippies with too much time on their hands going "free Tibet!", news flash, get off your butt and do something meaningful. Produce something, instead of wasting away the time and resources of America.

If Tibet truly wants "freedom", they better pick up some pitchforks and fight for it and maybe waste of life people, like Claire, can go fight for Tibet and see how things go.

By the way, I hope China is tougher on Religion. Keep your god and Allah.. or whatever crap to yourselves.. Chinese dont need those. They did not make you guys any better human beings throughout history, maybe more hypocrisy.

When you claim "Under GOD", I already know you are nothing but a narrow-minded wash-up. I dont believe any religion and never will.. I have better things in life to enjoy.

Boycott the chinese Olympics and ALL chinese made products

Their products are of low quality and their food is poisoned.

Boycott china.

Who care if you watch Olympic or not? Nobody.
The world is operated by mutual respect and benefit.
Talking about boycott or embargo. It won't work 40 years ago, how can it work now?

to FunTravelAdventur:

Boycott Chinese products?

Yes, it is true that Chinese products are of low quality and their food is more likely to be poisoned. However, if your household is making less than $50,000 a year, I am afraid you have to buy Chinese products and eat Chinese food.

If you want to boycott Chinese products, go head and actually do it, although I suspect that the only thing you will do is leaving “boycott Chinese product” comments on internet without yourself actually implementing it.

Note also that you have no right to order the hard-working athletes what they can and cannot do.

"Indian police arrested around 80 Tibetans protesting at the Chinese Embassy in New Delhi on March 14, reports the news portal Phayul.com. Another 100 Tibetans were detained after planning to march from Dharamsala to Tibet."
Source: http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0320/p99s01-duts.html

It is interesting that the Indians arrested 80 Tibetans. The news would sound (to some readers) completely different if it said "Chinese policy arrested 80 Tibetans." Indians arrested 80 Tibetans? "Oh..." Chinese arrested 80 Tibetans? "Boycott Olympics! Down with China!"

Note that the Indian government is no friend of China, and has no incentive to please the Chinese government. I guess it said something about the "peaceful" protest of Tibetans.

Not only will quite a lot of citizen of the world NOT watch, they will actively speak out against it! This, regardless of their own governments wishes not to Boycott.

Sorry China, you are far from ready to be showcasing modernization as it includes not only infrastructure, but socioeconomics as well... Especially the Social part...

Not only will quite a lot of citizen of the world NOT watch, they will actively speak out against it! This, regardless of their own governments wishes not to Boycott.

Sorry China, you are far from ready to be showcasing modernization as it includes not only infrastructure, but socioeconomics as well... Especially the Social part...

Why not eliminate nationalism from the Olympics entirely? Don't identify the athletes and teams by nationality; don't fly anything but the Olympic flag; don't aggregate medals by country. Find permanent locations (summer & winter) and declare them international territories. Award unconditional international freedom of travel to all medalists. Make it the global event that it's supposed to be.

The Chinese have slaughtered & imprisoned tens of thousands of Tibetans since invading in the 1950's & ruling with an iron-fisted communist hegemony since that time. China has no legitimate claim on Tibet now and never has - there are no cultural ties whatsoever.

This has always been an imperialistic land grab and nothing more. The USA does nothing of course, since cash is king and the American economy is riding a Chinese tidal wave.

What will the USA do when China finally gets around to invading Taiwan?? Taiwan is quite well armed and has long had close diplomatic ties with the USA since the post WWII era. Now that is a real nightmare waiting to happen - and it will.

The neighborhood grocery store might be looking pretty good after that confrontation.....

This Tibetan protest altercation will disappear in a cloud of money, because the Olympics stimulates a huge outlay of cash and is considered a major political coup for China and it's future relations with the West (economic and otherwise). Our sensibilities are offended today, but that will quickly pass.

There are some lessons that the Chinese government may want to learn. They must be curious why the Native Indians are not asking all other Americans to leave the continent and go back to Europe, Africa, Asia, or wherever they came from?

First, native Indians’ life is much better with the Americans around. Who are going to patronize the casinos otherwise? Who are going to pay the tax to subsidize them otherwise? Lesson learnt: The Chinese should help the Tibetans out of poverty. People having nothing to lose are prone to violence.

Second, the Native Indians’ culture and religion is well protected by the constitution, the rule of law, and the democratic process. The native Indians feel comfortable with this. The advice for the Chinese government is clear.

Third, how can less than five millions native Indians rise up against 300 million Americans? It is not possible. There is no chance they can burn down a store before being killed by Americans armed with shotguns. A sad advice: Chinese should increase the pace of ethnic Chinese settlement in Tibet to achieve a super-majority in the local population.

Finally, note that human beings have short memory. No one will remember the atrocities you own ancestors committed 200 years ago. It is OK for you to write off the crime and wrong and keep the benefits/fruits so long as you build some monuments/museums/casinos for them. Those native Indians who die from smallpox or were hunted down by white militias cannot speak against you anyway. The most shameless people always laugh at the last, which is the rule of the jungle and the rule of today’s world. I hope the Chinese government is not learning this advice. But sadly it is unlikely they don’t notice the advantage of doing it; they are eager to learn the success story of the West.

1) taiwan is well armed because the US sold them their used weapons/airplanes for billions of dollars a day

2) it is the US strategy to create turbulence in the east by giving weaker nations the support to go up against stronger nations (i.e. the japans, koreas, vietnams, taiwans of the world)

3) Tibet has sent their dalai-lamas to china so many times to the capital of china in every dynasty to come to term with and acknowledge the "TIE" that apparently some ppl think don't exist

4) the amount of native indians US has slaughtered is 2.2 million, the rest they've enslaved via booze and brain washing, oh all your native culture is wrong. 2.2 million, that's exactly how many tibetans there are.

will chinese be as murderous and evil as US/europeans? probably not, will china be perceived to be evil? probably yes

why? control of the mainstream media.
4)

Chris Everett:

You have a GREAT idea! Much better than the travelling circus that has been the case.

do You know about the genetics of Tibetans and China? one is Scottish, the other is Irish, if i am not mistaken.

As a track & field athlete the Olympics are the pinnacle of our sport as it is with other sports. I do not believe the US teams should participate in these games nor do I believe that China should have been rewarded with the Games in the first place. If the United States does not boycott these Olympics the least I can do is a personal boycott. Let the networks and advertisers know I will not be watching and will also attempt as much as possible to not buy goods made in China. Let the people of Tibet live free.

This is ridiculous. China is lacking in personal rights. I can admit that, but the CCP has been in power for just over 50 years. I have to say that they have achieved a great deal in stabilizing and modernizing the country in the short amount of time. How long did it take for women to be able to vote in America? How long did it take to free the slave?

Yes atrocities have been committed but it is necessary. My family lost everything the revolution, my great grandfather died as a political prisoner in the Communist jails. Even I can put personal hate aside, shed my naivete, and realize that such actions are for the greater good.

The country's people can only be prosperous when society is stabilized with a strong government. If Tibet and Taiwan are allowed to leave at will, it will throw the country into chaos. Everyone will suffer. Imagine what would have happened if the US south and Texas were allowed to secede.

It is undeniable that the U.S. is engaged in a cold war with China. This time it is not a weapons race but a war for public opinion. Be honest, which country has a pristine human rights record from the get go? CCP has been in powered for 50 years and tamed the chaos.

Also, please please do not take the Western media as absolute truth. There is censorship and propaganda on the part of the Chinese but it just as bad on Western news media.

Tibet has been under Chinese rules for 7 centuries. 700 yrs is not a shot time. question - How come there are so many Tibet people been killed during last 60 yrs ? What has current Chinese government doing to those people ? Poeple Republic of China is conducting a genocide in Tibet and the whole world watches on.. UN is nothing but for rich and powerful nations to play game. UN is a joke to people who are suffering. We should be ashame of ourselves of talking democracy or humanity. Is power and money so important that we would turn our head other way ? We need to talk a good look at ourselves !!

This blog is a good example of a poor writer with guts but no fact checking skills.

Have you watched the Australia Tourist Video and A recent interview by a western journlist on CNN web site? They all showed how brutal the riots rampaged on the streets, burning and killing normal people.

China's government may not do it perfectly (particulary on the media block on tibet), but it tried really hard on solving the issue correctly which I haven't seen it for years.

Your article is full of ignorance and wishful thinking. Have a few emotional foreigners turned off TV or say bye for ever change nothing. If you think that's a way to communicate your feeling and anger, it's just a no effect. Who care indeed when China has 1 billion people by itself.

Chris, That's an idea that I've thought about for years. It should never be the Chinese Olympics or the Salt Lake Olympics. That would completely take the politics out of it.

What Boycott, I always try to buy anything other than chinese products, and always buy American when possible. The quality of chinese products is inferior, junk actually, and I absolutely refuse to buy food from china.

If you'r willing to take some time out of your busy schedule and actually look at the products before you buy them, you might be shocked to find that other countries, including the USA, still manufacture different products and food and if you bought them, Americans could keep some of our jobs.

"So, no freedom of information, possible torture, possible false imprisonment, possible religious persecution."

Trials and gov't hearing held with redacted texts. The White House "losing" emails, just as they're under pressure. FOIA requests taking years to process.

Freedom of information?

Abu Ghraib. Guantanamo Bay.

Possible torture?

Held without bail or trial for years. Denied legal advocacy. Even when legal advocates are allowed, denied the evidence against them.

Possible false imprisonment?

Political candidates grilled about their religious beliefs. Censorship dominated by faith-based groups.

Possible religious persecution?

I suggest you solve these problems in the U.S.A., before you venture to level an accusing finger at other countries. The rest of the world just can't take you seriously anymore.

A question: If an ethnic Chinese was born in Tibet, should he or she be considered an occupier of Tibetan land?

Second questoin: does the following statement make sense?
"I was born and raised in America and I have given the native Indians proper compensation (e.g. Casino licenses)for the wrong my ancester did, and therefore the land belongs to me and no one can ask me or my 300 million fellow Americans to go back to Europe"

If you think their is a case for the above statement, do you think the Chinese should be given the same deal?

with the 3T USD for Iraq War from budget of USD, all of the nations could be connected to each other in stead of neighbourhood references, genetically and accurately precisely, in stead of physical similarities of Temples of Summeria and South America. all of the Americans could be taken to World Tour at least for once. all of the people in Iraq could prosper to have civil inspirations. yet we are on the internet. Claire Hoffman could be in Tibet this morning by plane in stead of asking SAlly Quinn for availability of a budget. this is the USA i dream of.

To: FunTravelAdventure:
you pay for what you get; lower price for lower quality products. I would certanly prefer a BMW to a Chinese-made unsafe car, but I won't be able to afford a BMW. For clothing, shoes, bedding, consumer eletronics, personal computers, I don't see there are many made-in-USA options for a low to middle income household. They don't watch olympics anyway, have to work two shifts to make ends meet and put foods on the table.

Apparently we have a few pro-Chinese sympathizers here - Mao Tse-tung killed tens of millions of Chinese....and according to Anonymous, all for the greater good. He invaded Tibet and slaughtered it's people, all for the 'greater good'. And they said the North Koreans were good at brainwashing??

The Chinese certainly know how to settle the question of 'who's in charge' don't they?? Uncle Mao would be proud of you - you continue to do his work for him.

China, with the least of prices and most of human labority, has enormous amount of budget for chemistry, wisdom, health, genetics. USA, with 1/5 of population of China, has a budget to satisfy the plans of government of USA. if i have the tiniest of New Zealanders genetics, i want to have visa to be in New Zealand too.

There is a vast difference between comparing American Native populations against the cause of Tibet. This is not a Chinese/Tibet issue. It is the current (although old) regime that suppresses tibetan politics and culture. Most Chinese don't know about the crisis; citizens in China who do know are in no place to do anything about it. This is about a repressive regime.
That the Olympics are being held there is beyond belief. The world is giving those in power a tacit stamp of approval on their policies, against Tibet and their own people.

I'm sick and tired of all the sheeple who think that there is or was a genocide in Tibet. There isn't one. GO LOOK IT UP. Go read Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch. There's propaganda coming from both the Communist government and the "Free Tibet" camp.

Port Hope,

Could you elaborate on why the American native population issues are different?

How do you know that the Chinese will continue to supress the Tibetans 200 years from now? The Chinese will probably give the Tibetans casino license and museums too, 200 years from now, if there is still a signficant Tibetan populaton by then.

And the Chinese setllers there, 200 years from now, would probably start to build border fence and threaten to deport illegal Nepalis, Indians, pakistanis too. Oh, I forget the Mexicans!

I find it funny that the US sent thousands of troops to Afghanistan to liberate it from an oppressive theocracy, yet many Americans are willing to support another one in another part of Central Asia.

Here's a good video of all those Lama fans out there.
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=4328870

Correction:

Here's a good video [for] all those Lama fans out there.
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=4328870

A conversation:

Free Tibet! Boycott China! Boycott Olympics!

- Why?

Because we’ve got to free Tibet, so we have to free Tibet.

- But why?

There is no why. It is trendy. It is so cool. Have a look at my buddism tatoo.

- But why?

Because there is and was a genocide of Tibetan and Tibetan culture. They killed millions of Tibetans

- I didn’t know about that. The Amnesty International is not saying this either.The repressive regime is equally cruel on its own people than it is on the Tibetans. And there was about 1 million Tibetans there when the communists arrived.

You must have been brainwashed by the Chinese communists! Go read the history. Go watch some movies. Go read some books.

- Didn’t the Chinese make movies too?

Watch our movie! Theirs are propaganda!

- Didn’t the communist say the same things too: “it is all western propaganda. only our version is correct”

If boycotting is an effective tool (or weapon), then Fidel would have been long gone!

Not all Tibet people are against China rule. I think the majority are satisfied with their lives now. Those handful of rioters are just losers in a progressing prosperous society. Those losers have shown in other parts of the world too, Los Anegels for example.

The biggest loser, of course, is Dalai Lama. Look, even China invites him back, there could be a civil war among Tibetans because there will be no place in Tibet for his poor followers abroad. By stimulating this riot, his chance of returning is zero. He is finished.

"... no freedom of information, possible torture, possible false imprisonment, possible religious persecution..."

I would go even further. It's more like censored information, proven torture, proven false imprisonment...

This is truely, truely disgusting. But I'm discrbing the good ol' U.S. of A here, with our treatment of suspects in Gitmo and Abu Ghraib in the "War on Terror".

Many young people are really naive and older folks like our Claire are just ignorant or uninformed or too lazy to dig deeper on an issue. They swallow the mainstream media hook, line and sinker.

What started as a peaceful protest turned into a riot. The Chinese government did what any responsible government needed to do to stop the rioters from killing any more people and doing more damages to properties, before the whole situation turns uncontrollable.

Look at these videos that the mainstream media in the west won't show you on their TVs. If not for the signs in Chinese I swear I'm looking at footages of the LA riot. And how many people did the LAPD arrest in the Rodney King riot in 1992? I'm sure it was more than 24.

Please watch the videos Claire.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=lFY1j8qs9mk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqiMFiHX1DY

HA! I see the chinese government is trying to spread its propaganda here, too.

"Jim" should know that the ONLY Tibetans supporting the chinese are chinese party functionaries, and relocated chinese nationals.

There are no practicing buddists who support the chinese governent, because the chinese government refuses to let them practice.

There are no cultureal tibetans who support the chinese because their culture is ransacked daily as their traditional structures have been demolished by the chinese government in favor of cheap stucco and garish architecture now dominating tibet.

The prostitutes brought to Tibet that ply their trade on the streets of the holy capital were not there before the chinese came, so I doubt honorable people are too pleased with that regardless of their religion.

Tibet lives in a hell made up of communism, iron fisted chinese government violence and tyranny, and the wanton destruction of a millennia of peaceful culture.

I'm boycotting the olympics and all chinese goodsa and services until the communist government recognizes rule of law and stope pirating our ideas, sending poison toys to our children, poison medicine to our hospitals, and poison food to our homes. China's economy is built upon the backs of slabve laborers in the slave coal mines that they burn to generate cheap electricity and care not that they poison our planet.

China's government is the biggest problem on earth!

So all this author says has been that China is violent and has committed another atrocity in recent event in Lhsa.

The western media has unanimously used the word "crackdown" when describing the incident, but until today, we haven't see any hard evidence to support this judgment. It remains unclear whether the Chinese government had a "crackdown" on those rioters, whose violent deeds against both innocent Chinese and Tibetans are shown on numerous video clips.

If this author respects the basic rule of news writing, she would have to check the fact and then draw her own conclusion. Obviously, she didn't.

I'm so disappointed in nearly all the western reporting about the event, especially AP and CNN, that they made me realize there's probably no objective news report at all in the world. I used to hold the western media high for I thought they stressed so much about being objective. It's a loss of role model.

Most of the western reporters in China don't speak Chinese, neither does this author, I guess. How do you expect they really understand China and Chinese culture? Surely, they seem to have no sense at all about Tibetan history as part of China.

"... rioters beat a patrol policeman unconscious, and then cut a piece of flesh from his buttocks."

You know, the Chinese government really should have smarten up and let foreign journalists go in to see, and hopefully report, the facts on this "peaceful protest". When the western media don't have the facts they just twist whatever they hear into what they believe happened, based on their biased perspectives.

This link is from Xinhua. The closed-minded sheeple most likely think "Ah, those Commies just made this up!"

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-03/17/content_7805191.htm

13 civilians burned or stabbed to death in Lhasa riot
www.chinaview.cn 2008-03-17 10:27:48

BEIJING, March 17 (Xinhua) -- Thirteen innocent civilians were burned or stabbed to death in last Friday's Lhasa riot, said Qiangba Puncog, chairman of the Tibet Autonomous Regional Government, at a news briefing in Beijing on Monday.

He cited two cases of what he described as brutality.

In one case, a civilian was reportedly doused in gasoline by rioters and burned to death alive. In the second case, rioters beat a patrol policeman unconscious, and then cut a piece of flesh from his buttocks.

"People of all ethnic groups in Tibet were indignant about violence and brutality displayed in Lhasa and strongly condemn them," said Qiangba Puncog.

Tibet Autonomous Regional authorities responded quickly, and mobilized security personnel to deal with the riots in accordance with law, he said.

The security personnel also helped extinguish fires, rescue the injured, and protect schools, hospitals, banks and government institutions, he said.

"We adopted these measures with the purpose of safeguarding social stability, the rule of law and fundamental interests of people of all ethnic groups in Tibet," he said, adding the situation had calmed down in Lhasa, and stability had returned.

"What confused me and made me indignant was that the Dalai clique and some Westerners labeled the destructive rampage of the rioters as 'peaceful protests,' but called our actions to deal with the brutal acts committed by the rioters as 'repressing peaceful protests,' said Qiangba Puncog. "I think that just confuses black with white."

He believed no democratic country would tolerate the brutality carried out by the rioters in Lhasa on Friday.

double said "I find it funny that the US sent thousands of troops to Afghanistan to liberate it from an oppressive theocracy, yet many Americans are willing to support another one in another part of Central Asia"

You truly are an idiot. If 19 Tibetans had hijacked 4 China Air airliners, and crashed them into china's biggest buildings killing over 3,000 people and costing their country Trillions of Dollars, there wouldn't be a Tibetan left anywhere on earth.

I don't blame you. But object to the Olympic being held in China due to a totally different reason: 50% of the 1.4 billion people, that's 700 million, are still struggling to make ends meet. Many country areas still don't have running water. More than 80% of the population don't have healthcare of any kind.

But the government is spending billions of dollars just to put up a show.

I don't blame you. But I object to the Olympic being held in China due to a totally different reason: 50% of the 1.4 billion people, that's 700 million, are still struggling to make ends meet. Many country areas still don't have running water. More than 80% of the population don't have healthcare of any kind.

But the government is spending billions of dollars just to put up a show.

That's a curious reason. So since America is basically bankrupt, and has to borrow trillions from other nations such as poor China to operate, then America is automatically disqualified from hosting the Olympics?

Make no mistake, the Olympic Games are just a big party to celebrate 30 years of Chinese successes. It is nice, but it is only a party. To think that whether jerks will or will not come to the party is going to influence China's decision on whether to act resolutely against splittists who claim 1/3rd of the nation's territory, is just plain silly.

It is not true that the uprisings have wide Tibetan support. Most ordinary Tibetans, in particular those over 25 years old, are just indifferent to whatever the government do to them and would consider the government as the lesser of two evils if you ask them to choose between the Chinese government and the militant Tibetans. The former at least provide some economic relief, while the later are as repressive as the former.

The "divide and rule" strategy (which admittedly is a shameless colonial policy) has been very successfully implemented by the Chinese communists, that a fraction of Tibetans, by cooperating with the Chinese (government), enjoy much higher level of living standards than other Tibetans. These privileged Tibetans are ruthless to their own people. Certainly, the Chinese also use every opportunity to stir up conflicts among Tibetans.

There are plenty of internal Tibetan conflicts for the Chinese to exploit. We used to think that all Iraqis are the same, and all Afganstanis are the same. Now we know it is not true.

Do you notice that more Palestinians are killed by the Arabs than by the Israelis? Palestinians in West Bank hate those from Gaza as much as they hate the Israelis, while those living in Lebanon/Jordan hate their brothers from West Bank and Gaza. When you fight among your own people, you occupier is very happy!

to JBE

"HA! I see the chinese government is trying to spread its propaganda here, too."

--- See my post below on a conversation with a pro-Tibet activist. You sound very typical: whoever disagree with you must have been brainwashed or are tools of Chinese government propaganda. Your logic is very similar to the Chinese communists. They always accuse anyone who critize Chinese government as Western propaganda.

""Jim" should know that the ONLY Tibetans supporting the chinese are chinese party functionaries, and relocated chinese nationals."

-- What do you mean by "should know"? So whoever argue the opposite of your opinion "should" change their mind just because you tell them "should know"?

"There are no practicing buddists who support the chinese governent, because the chinese government refuses to let them practice."

--- I know that Christians are supressed in China. But I never know that Buddists are. Just go visit some Buddist temples and see how popular and crowded they are.

"The prostitutes brought to Tibet that ply their trade on the streets of the holy capital were not there before the chinese came, so I doubt honorable people are too pleased with that regardless of their religion."

---Come one. Eloit Spitzer also said prostitution was bad. You are romantizing Tibet the same way the Chinese romantized Mao 30-40 years ago.

"Tibet lives in a hell made up of communism, iron fisted chinese government violence and tyranny, and the wanton destruction of a millennia of peaceful culture."

--- Tell me again just how peaceful Tibet was 50 years ago before the communists arrived. Even Dalai Lama didn't think it a plesant history

to FunTravelAdventure on your comment below:

I am sure that the September 11 hijackers were Saudis.So we invaded the wrong country? Tell me if I am wrong.
----------------
double said "I find it funny that the US sent thousands of troops to Afghanistan to liberate it from an oppressive theocracy, yet many Americans are willing to support another one in another part of Central Asia"

You truly are an idiot. If 19 Tibetans had hijacked 4 China Air airliners, and crashed them into china's biggest buildings killing over 3,000 people and costing their country Trillions of Dollars, there wouldn't be a Tibetan left anywhere on earth.
---------------

Don't worry, with all the "junk" in the air over there, you probably won't be able to see the athletes as they compete.

Can't you see it now? The javelin disappears into the "soup" they call air in China, or the pole vaulters who disappear on their way up and reappears after hopefully crossing (?) the bar.

Won't be much to watch. Let's see what the Nielsen (sic) ratings are after the fact. I am willing to bet they will be terrible.

Double Standard - and what exactly is your relationship with China and the Chinese government? Are you perhaps an embassy worker or a software engineer that still has a soft spot for the homeland??

Apologetics for China is not going to find a soft landing here abouts...China's record of brutal human rights suppression is legendary and ongoing. On the other hand, the industrial revolution in China will ultimately result in a democratic government - economics will eventually trump totalitarian idealism - like a defeated swordsman, the head has been severed from the body, but doesn't know it's dead yet.

At that point China will still have to deal with monied megalomaniacs like Bush and Cheney - in the end, there's never a free lunch. Most of us aren't making excuses for the excesses of our current government these days. On the other hand, democracies have the option of voting out the ideologs and deluded maniacs, unlike China.

Whether or not we exercise that option remains to be seen.

I remember a juvenile expression, "let the Russians play with themselves" that came about when we boycotted the 1980 Olympics. The Russians were in Afghanistan and we didn't approve -because they were Godless communists.

That worked out real good. Russia left Afghanistan. And, we've now reaped the harvest of "protecting faith" in strange places. Maybe we'll get lucky. Some day we'll have the Olympics again and the Russians will boycott us. Then we too can leave Afghanistan.

Religions are governments. There can be but one government else there will be chaos. Maybe the Chinese aren't willing to share the government? Does the Dali Lama intend to share or be the whole thing?

To which do American voters listen their preachers or their candidates? And after the election do they get behind the winner if it's not their choice or do they seek to impeach? Is America really divided or will that only happen if the Democrats win?

Why are we forever on the wrong side in conflicts between religions and governments? Some old would-be God that's really just a Devil named Lucifer is behind religion. The Bible tells us all about Him, the deal He made with Moses and His son Jesus being sacrificed to God so sins can be forgiven.

Of course, unlike us the Tibetans could worship the real God. The Chinese don't think so and they're right there. Maybe we should just shut up.

Hi perspective:

Could you please read my various commments again, and read between the lines when neccesory? Did I sound apologetics for the repressive Chinese government?

Since you asked, yes I came from China. Are you saying that all Irish American should be deprived of their rights to comment on any Irish issues, and Bush should not be talking with Gordon Brown lest being suspected of apologetics for his "homeland" or being a worker for the British embassy?
--------
"Double Standard - and what exactly is your relationship with China and the Chinese government? Are you perhaps an embassy worker or a software engineer that still has a soft spot for the homeland??

Apologetics for China is not going to find a soft landing here abouts..."

Most ethnic Chinese (I'd guess over 90%), no matter where they are and what their nationality, are firmly in support of China's sovereignty claims upon Tibet.

In my view the policies in the last 50 years were indeed wrong. What China should have done was to take a page from America's experience in taming the American West. If China had done the same, mayhap Tibet today would be more like California.

Or at least the policy of prohibiting live-in indoctrination before age 18, now applied to Madrassas, should apply to ALL religions in China. Going with your parents to Sunday service is one thing. Being drenched daily in demagoguery when you are just a kid will be life damaging, resulting in fanatics that break the law and destroy the peace for the rest of society.

Cultural genocide my body part. China hasn't done 1/100th what the Americans had done to the natives, and Beijing actually put up hundreds of millions of RMB to educate the natives in their own tongue - fluency in the written Tibetan script is today close to 85%. During the Dalai's 14 incarnations before New China, that number was never above 5% - serfs and women had no need to learn the written script, y'see. AND who put up the millions to record and publish King Garza, the most beloved of all Tibetan epic poems, in writing for the first time? Not the Dalai!! The Gucci wearing, jet hopping "monk" never donates to the temples even though he is rich, he just takes. Must be that 14 incarnations' worth of bad habits are very difficult to shake.

Or maybe I am just ignorant. You guys must share the facts on how America spends tens of millions annually to preserve native American culture, how elementary and secondary schools are fully funded to educate the natives in their native tongues, and written systems for native languages developed where none existed before, lest parts of the native languages might become lost with assimilation.

Oh by the way, what is the prevalent religion today amongst native Americans? Must be some form of native religion, right, since Americans care so much about preserving native cultures and religions.

Why, just in the last few years, we heard the wonderful story of how American GIs gave their all to protect the Iraqi National Museum upon entering Baghdad, making sure that 3,000 year old artifacts were not destroyed or looted. Their services were truly appreciated by the Iraqis, since the Oil Ministry records, which were not as well guarded, went up in smoke.

{What am I smoking?)

Claire Hoffman throws her hissy fit because the Chinese were not nice to the native Tibetan rioters. What have the Tibetans done (just happened to be burning and looting and killing civilians)?

I wonder what Ms. Righteous did about American atrocities done in her name in the last few years.

And the Chinese propaganda machine ought to feel truly humbled by what this misogynic "monk" can do with the Americans, despite his denigrating view on the fairer sex.

Even today, the Dalai 14's cult still insist that women are too unclean to be close to Buddha, and thus refuse to let them join the Sangha and discuss the scriptures in the traditional oral debate form. The Dalai was taken seriously to task by the Chi Ji nuns (who subscribe to another branch of Buddhism) when he visited Taiwan. He refused to budge, and simply flashed his $100,000 veneered smile.

Keep in mind the history of the Dalai's brand of "religion" - all Tibetans were born into it and had no choice not to believe. The implements of persuading the nonbelieving (ala "nose shavers" that shaves off noses, and skull cups made out of real actual skulls) are still proudly on display in the Tibetan temples. The Chinese are largely flummoxed as to why little Ms. Hoffman, so eloquent in her arguments, would want to destroy the existing freedom of religion in Tibet - where the natives are free to pick Buddhism (all major branches of it, and not just the Dalai's brand), Muslim, Christianity, Agnosticism, or even Atheism - and return power to a theocracy ran by the misogynic Dalai.

Can Ms. Hoffman take a couple of minutes and explain to us why all Tibetans ought to be destined to just believe in the Dalai's brand of religion, and shall have no other choice?

You can personally disagree with it (especially those who argue that their God is the one and only, and that all other so called Gods are idols, probably would), but it appears that the Chinese system on religious freedom is at least RATIONAL.

1. Everyone is free to worship whatever God or gods or deities, or choose agnosticism, or choose not to believe (atheism). Religion is between a person and his or her own God and nothing can or should stand between the two. That is the right that should be and is respected in China.

2. But beyond that relationship with God, any further assertion of rights, e.g., congregational rights, etc., are going into the realm of MAN. Freedom of association is not a fundamental part of freedom of religion, and as a lesser right must be subject to other balancing societal considerations.

3. Given China's 5,000 years of history, and the periodically repeated man made religion/cult based disasters (there were MANY in Chinese history, collectively resulting in more than 100,000,000 in deaths over millenia), China demands that all religions must stay away from barging upon the realm of politics. This is a reasonable and rational demand. Religion, which believes in a greater power and greater good than MAN, cannot be allowed to be involved in politics, the governing of MAN.

That's it. As a practical part of enforcing part 3, the commies demand that all legitimate houses of worship be formally registered (so they know where they are). America does similar, in that churches are required to file 501(c)(3) exemption registration with the IRS in order for donations to be tax exempt.

China's system may not be to your liking (perhaps because it is so foreign), but compare even Lhasa to Gurjarat - the last time Lhasa saw a riot was 20 years ago (that's not such a bad track record). Gurjarat sees one every other month.

Tongluren:

Communism/Mao is indeed a "man-made cult" that caused at least 30 million unnatural death. Don't you agree?

That was over a generation ago. People have short memories. Mao's been DEAD for a long time, and even in China he's found to be 70/30 right/wrong so he is certainly not deified to any degree. So it seems that the Chinese have seen the light, and recast their brand of communism as "Socialism With Chinese Characteristics", which in the last 30 years just happen to be the best performing form of government in human history.

Today, China holds over 1.5 trillion in foreign currency reserves, and graduates 5 times more engineers and scientists than America. Its EAST fusion reactor is the ONLY one of its kind in the world, built with a measly $20 million.

What dies Mao have to do with the price of rice in China today??

FunTravelAdventure said:

"You truly are an idiot. If 19 Tibetans had hijacked 4 China Air airliners, and crashed them into china's biggest buildings killing over 3,000 people and costing their country Trillions of Dollars, there wouldn't be a Tibetan left anywhere on earth."

No, you're the true idiot. I support the war in Afghanistan as a response to the 911 attacks, as with the rest of America. What I don't support is the re-installation of an oppressive theocracy in Central Asia (Dalai Lama).

If one rules out boycotting the games, there is no incentive for the Chinese govt to change its behavior. Why bother talking about it?

double standard:,

What do you want? Yes, the Native Americans got screwed over but good 200 years ago. In some ways, they're still getting screwed over. So, because of that you want us to ignore all other problems in the world that are at their peak right now? All other problems that maybe we could do something about? Or do you want us to just wring our hands about how terrible we are and how the whole world is better than us?

Nobody likes a party-pooper. If your ideas regarding the Tibet situation are to go back in a time-machine and stop the American genocide, cool, good luck. Otherwise you're just that annoying guy at the party who keeps pointing out that local ordinances are being violated.

double standard:,

What do you want? Yes, the Native Americans got screwed over but good 200 years ago. In some ways, they're still getting screwed over. So, because of that you want us to ignore all other problems in the world that are at their peak right now? All other problems that maybe we could do something about? Or do you want us to just wring our hands about how terrible we are and how the whole world is better than us?

Nobody likes a party-pooper. If your ideas regarding the Tibet situation are to go back in a time-machine and stop the American genocide, cool, good luck. Otherwise you're just that annoying guy at the party who keeps pointing out that local ordinances are being violated.

Instead of following the examples of Bonnie Lass, Hoffman and Bonnie Prince Charlie, I say, leave the decision of a boycott to the International Criminal Court.

I'm sure China will obey its edict.

Instead of following the examples of Bonnie Lass, Hoffman and Bonnie Prince Charlie, I say, leave the decision of a boycott to the International Criminal Court.

I'm sure China will obey its edict.

You guys can stop all the bullxxxx now. Nothing in China will change by your efforts.

300 here vs. 1.3 billion there, come on, be easy on yourself.

Good Friday?!!!. what is it? If it is really good, I should be given a day off.. -:)

China this, US that, please, let's have a good weekend..Get a life!

epthorn, You are wrong about that the Chinese gov does not want to change. Democracy is absolutely a good thing. All Chinese want to be able to truly elect their leaders. But on thing you should know is that China is too huge to change overnight. Do you think a bloody revolution is better than a peaceful transition? In addition, a bloody revolution might result in another repressive gov. China wants stability now and she has to improve the standard of living to a certain level where people can start talking about democracy.
I am actually very disgusted by the Western Medias reporting the riots in Tibet. 99% are one sided stories.

Oh, you show them, Claire Hoffman.

What better way to protest human rights violations is there than not watching a sporting contest on TV?

Oh, you show them, Claire Hoffman.

What better way to protest human rights violations is there than not watching a sporting contest on TV?

The native Indian example may be too old. How about the War in Iraq. I would laugh my butt off if you guys tell me that America wants to brig democracy to Iraq. There are so many repressive governments in the world. Go liberate them one by one. Clair, did you do anything about it such as boycotting your own gov? Come on

Double, Don't expect me to defend bush's invasion of Iraq. As far as I'm concerned, bush is a war criminal for invading a country that did absolutely nothing to the USA.

On the other hand, the Taliban protected Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan and allowed him and Al Qaida to train, recruit, and plan their attacks on the United States. We not only had a right to go into Afghanistan, we had an absolute obligation to do so.

Unfortunately, george bush had a personal vendetta against Saddam Hussien and used our military, our treasurey and the lives of our military personell to settle the score.

But under no circumstances can our invasion of Afghanistan, a country that was in large part responsible for the attacks on the US, be compared to China's invasion and repression of Tibet, a country that has done nothing to China.

But back to my point that if 19 Tibetans had hijacked four China Air airliners and crashed them into three of China's most famous and important building, killing over 3,000 innocent people, there would be a bloodbath the likes of which hasn't been seen since the Chinese backed Kmer Rouge eliminated 1/3 of the Cambodian people during Pol Pot's reign of terror.

Now Double, tell me I'm wrong.

How quickly they forget the 1989 PRC suppression of the summer protests in Tiananmen Square in Beijing - anywhere from 200-2000 killed, depending on whose figures you trust.

This is somehow different from the current suppression of the Tibet independence protests???
I think not - but go ahead and blame it on the Tibetans. They're pining away for that old worn-out theocracy run by the Dalai Lama, lest we forget (whereas in reality they're pining away for peace, freedom from persecution, the freedom of full cultural expression, and the re-installation of political autonomy as opposed to Chinese hegemony).

Yes, that would probably include the Dalai Lama as the figurative head of a Tibetan government along with the freedom to practice both Buddhism and the native Bon religions - perhaps much like the tradition of the Royal Family of England and The Church of England.

On the other hand, when it comes to religion, I can't support a male-dominated theocracy and/or clergy whether it be Buddhist or Catholic - this can't possibly be proper practice of the Dharma, or a correct application of the Sermon on the Mount, for that matter.

Curiously, women in Tibet were once so scare that it was about the only place in the world that sustained the cultural practice of polyandry - where women could have multiple husbands.

I'm sure all that has changed dramatically.....

to FunTravelAdventure:

I don’t expect you to defend Bush’s invasion of Iraq, and thus I don’t expect anyone to Boycott America or America-related products.

Similarly, few Chinese citizens support the communist government, and I don’t see why boycotting China or Olympics or Chinese products would make any sense. A boycott never harms a government, it simply punish the poor people who are already punished by its own government everyday. Yes, Taliban harbored terrorists, but not all Afghanistan people are Talibans.

And I don’t see why civilian ethnic-Chinese should be attacked by the Tibetans mobs (you can find the videos on youtube). Granted, not all Tibetans are mobs, and Chinese government kill its own people too; but shouldn’t the media be a little bit more balanced in reporting? I am particularly disgusted by the fact that some networks put up photos of Nepali/Indian police beating up protestors and claimed that those were taken in the recent Tibetan events. Also, photos of injured ethnic-Chinese were claimed to be ethnic-Tibetans. I know that all Asian look the same to Westerners, but shouldn’t journalists be better trained than ordinary people and at least tell the difference of army/cop uniforms in the geographic areas they cover.

Repression of Tibet? yes. Invasion of Tibet? I am not so sure. Before the communists arrived in the 1950s, there was no talk of Tibetan independence, and even Dalai Lama was very comfortable with the Chinese ruler and admired communism system (well, big mistake from hindsight!and the Chinese made a big mistake too by welcoming the communists at that time). The communist regime oppresses both ethnic Chinese and Tibetans in China, but saying that Chinese invaded Tibet would be the same as saying that Saddam's Iraq invaded the Republic of Turks or the Republic of the Sunnis. It is not like Fidel has invaded Miami!

Epthorn,

you said: “Nobody likes a party-pooper. If your ideas regarding the Tibet situation are to go back in a time-machine and stop the American genocide, cool, good luck. Otherwise you're just that annoying guy at the party who keeps pointing out that local ordinances are being violated”

There is a lot of truth in what you said
Yes, nobody likes a party-pooper. Everyone is happy by believing that the emperor is actually not naked. I admire many people in the pro-Tibet crowd, but the rest of them are just like they are gong to a party: it is cool and trendy to relate themselves to Tibet, Dalai Lama, Sushi, oriental tattoo, anti-globalization…

It doesn’t matter whether we have a time machine to reserve the wrong we did to the native Indians. My speculation is that, even if we have a time machine, no one would actually want to use it despite all of those lip services. No one would actually want to give up our current high level of living standards. Giving out casino licenses to the Indians is the most we can do, which kind of remove our guilt without affecting us financially too much. Human beings are selfish.

If China retreats from Tibet, what would happen to the millions of Chinese settlers there? You may say that: why did you invade and occupy Tibet in the first place? You made a mistake and should be responsible for the consequences.What go around come around....

Well, why did Europeans settled in Americas then? Are you willing to turn over whatever you have (properties, land, government) back to the native Indians now if they outnumber you in this country? I am sure many Americans would be put off by even the smallest inconvenience that they would have to share the roads with horses. Giving away Casino licenses is much easier, protesting about Tibet is much easier, protesting against globalization and big corporations is much easier (we need to party sometimes anyway)

I am not saying that what Chinese is doing in Tibet is right. I am just saying that being nice doesn’t pay off in a world that no one is actually behaving nice. We are still in a world where jungle rule prevails. Is it good? I am sure it isn’t. But let’s not pretend that other people are behaving any different from what you are doing.

yep.

FunTravelAdventure said:

"But under no circumstances can our invasion of Afghanistan, a country that was in large part responsible for the attacks on the US, be compared to China's invasion and repression of Tibet, a country that has done nothing to China."

My point was not to compare the invasion of Afghanistan to the invasion of Tibet. Re-read my post carefully. My point was that the Dalai Lama regime is worse than the Communists. Under the Lama, eyes were gouged and noses were cut off for those who dissented. It was also common for boys in the Lama's monastery to be sexually abused by the monks. Read the story of Tashi Tsering.
http://www.amazon.com/Struggle-Modern-Tibet-Autobiography-Tsering/dp/0765605090

The world will be a much better place without theocracies.

Your hypothetical scenario about a Tibetan terrorist attack is a straw man argument.

double standard said:
"Repression of Tibet? yes. Invasion of Tibet? I am not so sure. Before the communists arrived in the 1950s, there was no talk of Tibetan independence, and even Dalai Lama was very comfortable with the Chinese ruler and admired communism system (well, big mistake from hindsight!and the Chinese made a big mistake too by welcoming the communists at that time)."

When the Communists walked into Tibet in 1950, there was no resistance from the Dalai Lama group. It was well understood between the two parties that the Lama class can still enjoy all the privileges that they had enjoyed during the past seven centuries since Chinese Imperial rule. It was not until 1959, after nine years of "supposed Chinese repression", that the Communists started applying collectivist land reforms to Tibet (meaning that they took the Lamas' lands and re-distributed them to the Tibetan serfs) that the Lamas revolted. That's the real reason for the uprising in 1959, and the Dalai Lama's eventual exile.

Yes, Claire, go do some research and look that up.

PS: Did I mention that in 1950, when the Communist arrived in Tibet, they immediately abolished Tibetan slavery? Go look that up too.

perspective said:
"They're pining away for that old worn-out theocracy run by the Dalai Lama, lest we forget (whereas in reality they're pining away for peace, freedom from persecution, the freedom of full cultural expression, and the re-installation of political autonomy as opposed to Chinese hegemony). "

"pining for peace" - yeah, they're pining for peace by beating up on other ethnicities (Han, Hui)

"freedom from persecution" - oh, come on. You make it sound like Jews in 1930's Germany. How exactly are Tibetans being persecuted just because they are ethnic Tibetans? Give me one solid example.

"freedom of full cultural expression" - huh? got examples?

"re-installation of political autonomy as opposed to Chinese hegemony" - okay, you got a partial point there. Tibet is semi-autonomous. They don't have as much autonomy as Hong Kong, but they have more autonomy than other Chinese provinces. For the past 700 years, they never had sovereignty, but rather suzerainty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzerainty

What has 50 years of brutally oppressive culturally genocidal ethnic cleansing commie rule over Tibet wrought?

1. Literacy (read and write) rate in the Tibetan written language ROSE from 5% to 85% - mind you we are not talking about Pu Tong Hua (the main Chinese language) here.

2. Life expectancy ROSE from 35 years to over 65.

3. The population of the Tibetan SAR remains over 90% native (how does that compare to California?).

4. Women, who used to be lower than dirt under the 14 incarnations of Dalai, today are productive, happy members of society, and they are judges, police, teachers, college students, entrepreneurs, you name it.

5. The vast majority of the Tibetan SAR legislators are native. They even voted the SAR a shorter work week (35 hours) compared to the whole country.

6. Tibetan culture has never been as vibrant and well promoted. There are literally tens of millions more volumes of books printed in the Tibetan script since the beginning of New China. Tibetan song and dances are celebrated on national TV. When was the last time you saw native American culture on mainstream American TV?

7. Like all other ethnic minorities in China, Tibetan natives enjoy dispensations not available to the Hans. Natives can have multiple children while the Hans have to live with one only. Natives have reserved seats to go to Universities at subsidized tuition rates. Native college grads also find it much easier to get cushy jobs than the over 1 million Han college grads that are still looking for jobs.

There is justification for resentment - the majority Han are vexed by the few rabble rouser ingrates amongst the Tibetan natives, and wonder if it the "dissidents" are not just pogeny of serf owners who yearn for the "good ol' days" when the Dalai and his ruling clique owned everything - including the over 80% of the natives that were turned into illiterate serfs.

"China makes our Happy Meals possible."

The Chinese propagandists are out in force. So much for 6 degrees of separation. They are us...

Rarely have we seen the King's English used in the pursuit of selling such a huge load of dog droppings. And we know how rare dogs are in China - very tasty!!

We'll usually buy anything but we're tapped out at the moment - I perceive there are no takers on the uplifting if mythical tale of how China resurrected Tibet and turned it into a modern if ungrateful nation. Admittedly, deeply frustrated and suppressed people can turn ugly.....

And back to infamous Tiananmen Square - in the news today. It will probably be off limits during the Olympics, because of the high risk of very much unwanted protest actions. Talk about spoiling a party!!

And besides, who wants to conjure up those ugly memories from 1989??

1989 was so very yesteryear.

For an update of what brutal suppression and ethnic cleansing is, go look at the West Bank and Gaza - fully sanctioned by the good people of the U.S. of A., or at least done in their good name anyway.

Or for more lively action, go see the bombed out ruins in Iraq. No we are not talking about the IED kind, which are so primitive. We are talking about the high tech, thousands of pounds at a time aerial bombing that takes out "terrorists", no doubt, some of the time - but which inevitably flattens villages and kills hapless women and children.

But then again it is so much cheaper and easier to just point fingers at big bad China!!! Ye bleeding hearts are so cheap.

What is good must be universal. If America wants a continued freedom of action, it cannot assert a double standard for others.

911 killed 3,000, but did not demand territory from the united States. Yet it is deemed proper to flatten two nations, and the war goes on.

The Tibetan detractors have already killed, brutally, more than 15 (1/200th of 911), and have caused over $200,000,000 in property damage - that is not counting the losses due to the slowdown in tourism and the economy, etc. Moreover, they are demanding secession for "Greater Tibet," an area which is 1/4 the size of China territorially.

The last time the southerners asked for 1/3 of America, what price was President Lincoln willing to pay (and the nation did pay)? China is nowhere close to doing that much - the riot suppression is less than 1/10,000th the violence used by America.

Why the fuss? Unrest is unrest. When Compton boiled over in riots, America never hesitated from sending in 15,000 fully armed soldiers to quell the unrest, and the nation applauded, even though those put down were ethnic minorities (blacks) long known to be oppressed, as no amount of alleged oppression can and will justify violence by the rioters.

Tongluran - of course the Chinese don't have a corner on brutality and repression. They're just very good at it.

Personally my favorite Chinese era was the Tang Dynasty era - some great Chan practitioners from those days.....they really had a handle on 'enlightenment'. Do read Hui Neng and Huang Po
at the first opportunity.....

Among their contemporary spiritual successors are the Dzogchen & Tantric Buddhist practitioners of Tibet - the China of today unfortunately has no one left to carry on that exceedingly noble tradition - human transcendence, that is.

Japan also does a much better job of it now - Chan has become Zen.

China is busy becoming the world's next consumer's paradise - two steps forward and one step back has always been the rule for human progress.

The Chinese's biggest "sin" was in not pushing assimilation as early and as hard as the Americans or the Brits. Tibet had been part of China for 700 years and there simply had not been efforts to make them more like the Hans. That was a mistake. Looking back at history, even the most powerful of the invading tribes - the Mongols, the Manchus, were all brought to heel and "converted" to Chinese. What were the powers that be thinking when they decided that all Tibetan natives should learn the Tibetan script, for example? With the advent of New China and the abolishment of the Dalai led serfdom, which counted less than 5% literacy in the written Tibetan language, there was truly a golden opportunity to assimilate - much like what the Americans did to California - except not as extreme and brutal.

Were the last two generations of natives in the Tibetan SAR educated in Pu Tong Hua only, the assimilation process would have been much smoother.

Just could not understand why.

Looking at the Youtube footage, it is shocking to note the savagery of the rioters. I don't remember the Compton blacks being anywhere close to being so vicious. They chase down pedestrians (presumably any Han or Ui), and literally beat them to death. You can hear the thap-thapping of the sticks hitting flesh right there on the screen.

Such savages must be brought to justice. That's what any civilized society must do to deter further violence and unrest.

But then upon further reflection I am thankful that China does not mistake irresponsibility for freedom, and does not allow guns in civilian hands. Even with savagery as raw as what you can see, killing someone using sticks and stones takes quite a bit of effort. The situation would have been much worse if there were guns.

perspective said:
"The Chinese propagandists are out in force. So much for 6 degrees of separation. They are us..."

Just wow. You provide no example to back up your counter-arguments, yet you accuse others who disagree with you as shills for the Chinese government. You try to distract the discourse by uttering Tiananmen, in Dubya-style "9/11" or "Al-qaeda" whenever he's asked an unrelated question.

So I ask you again -- give me a concrete example of Tibetan persecution or cultural repression.

Who will be this summer's Jesse Owens?

and will China ever find Sun's Three Principles of People; Government of the People, By the People, For the People ?

or will it remain, forever Lost over some Horizon, like a distant faded memory?

Tibet was never willingly part of China not in language, politics, religion, culture or any other sense, it was effectively free before 1800's and after 1913. It even signed border treaties independently with British India, ancient Ladakh, Sikkim, Bhutan, Nepal in the past 1000 years. Why did the People's Liberation Army LIBERATE Tibet in 1951 if it was always part of China??? By that logic British have much stronger claim over The US and Canada and Spain should usurp all of Latin America. Or what about Pakistan and Bangladesh that were carved out of Indian provinces thats not even colonial, it was the heartland of a 5000 year old nation, do you see them crying over it??? if it was always part of China, why did China sign a treaty with British in 1900 agreeing that Tibet will not be converted into a Chinese province like they did to Aba, Parts of Gansu and Qinghai??? China swallow your pride and let Tibet enjoy its freedom.

Tibten:
Your reasoning is flawed. The PLA liberated China in 1949 too. Are you telling me that China was not part of China? Now you see how flawed one of your arguments is. The Brits lost its grip on the US becuase They could not hold onto it by force anymore. So You should arm yourself and fight for you freedom too. The US is a perfect example for you guys to learn. See how powerful this country is. It is so poweful that for the past 4 years,it has been bombing the hell out of a country that did absolutly no harm to it. Maybe one day you guys could bomb the hell out China too.

2 Guys are taking a dump. One guy tells the other "Dude you have turd on your ass. Let me wipe it for you." The other guy turns around and see that guy is still working on his own business yet he is offering a helping hand. So he tells the first guy "Thank you. I know I might have turd on my ass. But I doubt your sincerity of helping me since you should have cleaned up yourself first before you try to help anyone else. Oh please do not tell me that brown thingy is not turd just because it is out of you."

The western medias are on drugs wher=neever there are Tibet related riots. I did not see them get high when China cracked down on the Chinese riots.

We see the prevailing Chinese attitude toward the Tibet freedom movement in the news today. Polls indicate that the Chinese population fully supports 'crushing' the protest movement. Is it any surprise that our Chinese apologists here would tell a different story??

Googling 'China in Tibet' brings all kinds of interesting information regarding China's invasion, etc. Wiki gives a fairly complete historical synopsis of the situation.

In fact, Tibet lies between India and China, much as Kashmir lies between Pakistan and India - stratetic political/religious domination of these neutral land masses is no different in kind in either case. This is what occupation is all about, after all. Just because the USA is guilty of the same offenses in Iraq is no reason not to call attention to events transpiring in Tibet.

Tibet's religious traditions come from India, whereas their political and religous oppression comes from China - many thousands of Tibet's Buddhist monasteries were destroyed by the Chinese, and countless numbers of Buddhist monks were either killed or imprisioned.

Lenin, Stalin, and Mao knew that for communism to succeed it would be necessary to stamp out every vestige of religion - thus we have a false dicotomy in this country between communist totalitarianism and it's murderous, oppressive practices, and the secular humanist form of atheism found in America today - certainly they are universes apart.

The vast differences between the historical and socio-cultural matrices of communism and secular democracy as a context for religious suppression has been completely overlooked by the zealous religionists (Christians) in the USA that would equate the two forms of atheism. Atheism in this country is barely a ripple on the geopolitical landscape, compared to the Christianity based mania that rules the land!

Oddly enough, Bill Clinton is in the news today for a politically charged remark that brought into question Obama's patriotism - Obama's campaign quickly compared the remark to McCarthyism - and how can we forget the 1950's political witchhunt for 'godless communists and comunist sympathizers' that resulted in ruined careers and the blacklisting of both the famous and not-so-famous for both real and imagined associations with the American brand of communism (more accurately socialism) as found in the USA in the 1950's - the very antithesis of good old red-blooded American patriotism in those days when bomb shelters and the 'communist scare' was everywhere......

Frankly our government has been acting just a wee bit too Chinese for the comfort of many voters in recent years - we hope to rectify that problem come November.....unfortunately for the PRC they have no such voting option, other than to fall in line and love their government. Pitiful little North Korea is pretty much in the same boat, only without resources. They love their government even while starving to death - what does that say??

It's always nice to have options.........

perspective said:
"Is it any surprise that our Chinese apologists here would tell a different story??"

There you go again, the insults continue from someone who has nothing substantial to say.

perspective said:
"Tibet's religious traditions come from India, whereas their political and religous oppression comes from China - many thousands of Tibet's Buddhist monasteries were destroyed by the Chinese, and countless numbers of Buddhist monks were either killed or imprisioned. "

Buddhism originated from India! China's Buddhist traditions came from India. Does that mean China isn't Chinese? Many of the rest of China's Buddhist monasteries were destroyed by the Chinese too. These things weren't isolated to Tibet. ***So I ask you again for the third time -- give me a concrete example of Tibetan persecution or cultural repression.***

As for the rest of your post, all that verbosity but not an iota of relevance.

Tibetan said:
"Tibet was never willingly part of China not in language, politics, religion, culture or any other sense, it was effectively free before 1800's and after 1913. .... China swallow your pride and let Tibet enjoy its freedom."

Hmmm, you seem to be contradicting your supreme illustrious leader, the Dalai Lama. He's very much willing to have Tibet as a part of China. (That's his official stance.) Or maybe China's leaders' suspicions are correct -- that the Dalai Lama really does want separation.

perspective:

Reasoning of logic 101, You first bring up your claims. Then you use concrete and reputable evidence to support your claims. You seem to be very lacking in this area.

The Western Medias have a much more intense orgasam when it is Tibent related. Thus it has nothing but one sided stoires. The western propganda machine runs in full capacity.

DOUBLE STANDARD AND HELLODUDE -

What, you guys can't read?? Yes, tradition has it that Bodhidharma brought Buddhism to China about 600 C.E. but this is clearly part myth and part truth - in fact, Buddhism was extant in China long before. Of course this is really part of the Zen tradition - religion is always part myth and part truth.

In any event, Double Standard tells us that China destroyed not only monasteries in Tibet, but in China as well - isn't that what I said?? The extinction of religion was clearly enunciated in the philosophy of communism as ridding society of the clerical ruling class - this was clearly implemented in Tibet....no religion, and no religious hierarchy - down with the Dalai Lama .... we get it. You guys give atheism a bad name!

China's repression and oppression of religious expression in modern times isn't in doubt here, is it?? That, of course, is a gross infringement on personal and individual rights as we have clearly outlined in our own Constitution - and we know that the concept of individual rights is not a feature of communism in any way, shape, or form. This should not be in dispute. We all know that the mental construct of 'the common good' is the prevailing operational concept - and we know how that tends to work out.

There is either balance in life, or there is totalitarianism - I believe Confucious, not to mention Lao Tzu, first pointed this out as a fundamental law of Tao, and therefore the universe. If you would only get back to your roots, you'd see the error of your ways.

Reading Karl Marx, your spiritual forefather, you will see that the 'common good' prevails over individual rights. Are both of you so steeped in China-think that you live in that far-distant state of self-denial??

If the two of you and your friend Tongluren are really Chinese, then your obtuseness is excusable.
Your hyper-rationalism does smack of Western influences, however.

If you're living here be thankful - if you're living in China be thankful you're not living here. How's that for balance??

perspective said:
"China's repression and oppression of religious expression in modern times isn't in doubt here, is it?? "

Nope, that's not in doubt - there's limited religious freedom in the PRC. Now I ask you a fourth time -- give me a concrete example of Tibetan persecution or cultural repression (not talking about religion)

You know nothing about me. It's futile of you to keep throwing out accusations in a lame attempt to keep insulting me. Sticks and stone, you know.

Double Standard -

And once again, let's take the example of thousands of Tibetan monasteries destroyed, with monks killed and imprisoned...and of course Tibet's complete lack of political autonomy today. How many thousands of Tibetans do you suppose were killed when China invaded for the last time in 1959?? You may not have even been born at that point. China rules Tibet politically with an iron hand and that's not in dispute either - and yet thus far you haven't seen a single example of Tibet's repression by China??

How many thousands of examples do you need??? And just to clarify - the Dalai Lama has sought half-way measures with China, rather than total independence for Tibet. All he's asking for is political self-rule based on Tibet's cultural identity, rather than complete national autonomy....this is part of his Middle Way philosophy - and in fact the Buddhist school of thought that he follows.

This fact is not in dispute either - when people have no choice (under force of military might) as to how they will be ruled and who will rule them -that's called political and cultural repression or totalitarian rule, if you prefer.

On the other hand, the USA admittedly needs to stop trying to impose our own westernized political system of democratic rule on countries that aren't ready for it, don't want it, and can't function culturally under it's secular democratic guidelines.

Democracy evolves naturally when many other elements are in place. It can't be forced - either most recently in Iraq or in Vietnam, as another example. Still and all, the fact that our government won't stand up for Tibet is pure hypocrisy, based on economic interests.

I strongly suspect that you have no sympathy whatsoever for freedom of unhindered religious expression. In contrast to that position, of all the primary religions in the world, my strongest sympathies are with Buddhist thought, although I'm not a practitioner or follower of that or any religious faith.

When you repress religion in Tibet, you've oppressed the entire culture so parsing out religion as a 'single' and exceptional instance of political repression doesn't hold water.

In fact, Tibet has been thrown under the bus by the entire world, USA and India included, for the sole reason of maintaining economic ties with China - who we know brooks no 'interference' in it's 'internal affairs' - human rights are so limited in China and Tibet that those living in either place probably wouldn't be all that familiar with the concept - BTW you should be very glad you're not living in Tibet yourself.

As I read over your posts I realize you may be a westerner after all - which would make your mind-set all the more tragic. It's unfortunate indeed that you harbor no sympathies for Tibet's plight, but then you're not alone, are you??

Good day to you.....

The grownups in history, have demonstrated that
the way to change a society, or a group, however
small, is to engage. Integrate them.

Infiltrate, has been used. Convince by deed.

Still, the right wingers and their toadies think
closing the door and hssing and dissing will change the day. Even in countries as powerful as China, who hold enough of our debt to sink us. We're gonna ignore them?

Shades foreign policy by George Bush.It's gone so well.

Having squandered our moral authority in the world by invading Iraq and
supporting the Israli's cluster bombing and
genocide in Palestine, we're in no shape to
hiss at anyone else. Now, and maybe never again.

The US has no moral authority at all.

.. as long as we continue to supply cluster bombs to the Israelis to bomb
hundreds of innocent Lebanese civilians...

...give armanents to Israel to complete the genocide of Palestine.

..and grab more than 46% of the West Bank, settling and building roads while yelling 'defense'...

American diplomats and officials are being told that regularly when they fish abroad. LET'S STAUNCH OUR OWN EVIL, THEN POINT FINGERS ELSEWEHERE!

The US has no moral authority at all.

.. as long as we continue to supply cluster bombs to the Israelis to bomb
hundreds of innocent Lebanese civilians...

...give armanents to Israel to complete the genocide of Palestine.

..and grab more than 46% of the West Bank, settling and building roads while yelling 'defense'...

American diplomats and officials are being told that regularly when they fish abroad. LET'S STAUNCH OUR OWN EVIL, THEN POINT FINGERS ELSEWHERE!

My simple suggestion is 1). Do not watch the games but get the snippets of your interests on the internet. 2). Boycott the products that are being shown on NBC for just 3 weeks.

Simple solution, if you believe Tibet has a right of religious autonomy.

Perspective,

Very good that you refrained from insulting me. Now we can have a discussion.

The point that I was contending was that you earlier said Tibetans were persecuted and their culture was repressed by the Chinese. This is not true in the sense that they weren't specifically targetted. I'll explain below.

Tibetans aren't persecuted because of their ethnicity. Any Tibetan who were persecuted were due to their political activities. The fact that many Tibetan monks and nuns were arrested is because they were a theocracy. It's only natural that many of their political activists were the clergy. Those monks who weren't politically active weren't touched. This can be seen by any objective observation on the ground. I can only assume that the reason why this myth is constantly perpetuated in the West is because many Americans would draw a parallel between Jews and Tibetans if Americans believed that Tibetans were persecuted either because of religion or race.

I have a similar observation on the supposed cultural repression. It's true that some objects and buildings of cultural significance were destroyed. But when did it happen? It happened during the Cultural Revolution where the cultural heritage of Tibetans, Han Chinese, and other Chinese ethnicities were destroyed at that time. Since the Cultural Revolution, Mao was sidelined and the new administration tried to repair the damage wrought during that time.

(A good book to read is "The Struggle for a Modern Tibet". You don't have to read it; you can just read the editorial review at Amazon. [ http://www.amazon.com/Struggle-Modern-Tibet-Autobiography-Tsering/dp/0765605090 ]. Does what you read there line up with what you believe about Tibet and China?)

This is something that the "Free Tibet" people don't tell you. They want the world to believe that their suffering was different and special. It isn't. Everybody in China were on the same boat. The solution for Tibetans is the solution for all of China. For practicality, it would be much easier to endeavour to improve all of China through dialogue rather than try to carve out Tibet. The latter approach will lead to deaths, destruction, and more suffering.

LOVEO & LOVEA is arrived. We are Here!

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Double Standard -

Thanks for your post. From the American perspective three questions need to be
asked -

a) how is autocracy better than theocracy?
b) how do the Tibetan people view the Chinese occupation?
c) why do communist regimes invariably suppress religious expression? Or more generally, any point of view that differs with official government policy??

And in summary, how will the answers compare to the point of view that you've offered here??

You can argue that it doesn't matter in the least, since China is firmly in charge of Tibet and fully expects to remain in that position.

On the other hand, we say that 'might doesn't always make right'. In the end, you're defending the philosophically indefensible, which is your prerogative.

On the other hand, we see Taiwan electing a nationalist party president that seems far more inclined toward rapproachment with China compared to previous governments - but clearly from a position of power, at least compared to Tibet (their situation appeals to our humanitarian instincts, but otherwise has no impact on our foreign policy whatsoever).

Had Taiwan not been such a strategically importent political entity for the USA since 1949,
along with the accompanying military support they've received, they would not be equipped to bargain with China on relatively equal footing today. I believe Taiwan will ultimately remain governmentally independent, and to a far greater degree than Hong Kong by comparison.

By the way, I expect the Olympics to come off without a hitch - there's too much at stake politically and economically for any other outcome. Tibet is already old news.........

As we say, 'it all depends on who you know' ..... recent articles have pointed out that Tibet has few real friends in the world, and expects very little in the way of external support - and all because no one has a political stake in Tibet.

PS. China needs to do something about their air pollution problem.......healthcare costs are going to go through the roof.

How do the Chinese view the American lies?

With CNN and the rest of the gang caught red-handed, using doctored photos and condemning China even whilst the terrorists run amok in Lhasa and beyond, the Chinese people have shown a truly awe inspiring unity and maturity, standing fully behind their government in the handling of the riots. Beijing retains a 90% approval rating amongst her people. No more repeat of the 1989 TAM era, where Western lies were given some credence, to devastating effect. That set China's development back 5 years at least. This time around, the Western liars come up emptyhanded. There are already over half a million online signatures by Chinese netizens condemning the Western press and their distortion of the truth about the Lhasa riots, in the last few days alone. This is not only for Chinese in China. The overseas Chinese are actually the ones who pointed out the Western media distortions and lies in the first place during this past week, and the Chinese in Vancouver are organizing a march to protest the distortion.

As long as the Chinese stays united, what difference does it make what the Western liars say? If the West does not want to trade with China, there are lots of other nations and friends who do.

Nancy Pelosi is truly seen as a despicable clown, taking cheap shots at China while (actually BECAUSE) of the Congress that she "leads" has the dubious honor of beating even Dubya - it has an approval rating amongst Americans, of 20% (even Dubya manages 30%). So what does she do? Instead of taking care of the problems and issues of America, or even that of her home state California (which faces tens of billions of deficit and has to fire 10,000 teachers per the budget cut by Schwarzenegger), Pelosi does what every single red blooded American pol would - take cheap shots at China.

a) how is autocracy better than theocracy?

1. What does that have to do with the price of rice in China?? The Chinese government was the best performing form of government in the world in the last decade. It is certainly much more responsive to its citizens' wishes and demands than that of the United States. IF a Chinese leader has a 30% approval rating, he'd have been removed a lot time ago, and wouldn't be sitting out his 8 year term, spending trillions on wars that no sane Americans would want.

2. A theocracy claims to answer to an authority higher than humans. In the Dalai's case, it is worse than even the Catholics, as the Dalai 14 demands to be honored as God incarnate - God himself. Mere humans are not allowed to question God, challenge God's authority, or choose not to believe in God. In a theocracy, there is no choice of even what to believe - the implements of enforcing that unified belief are still on display in the various major Tibetan temples - ye nose shavers (with sharp blades that shave off noses) and leg irons and skull caps, reminding us of have savage the Dalai's brand of barbaric practice was and is. Looking at the Tibetan knive wielding rioters on TV demonstrates how the Dalai intends to enforce his definition of "Tibetan Culture" should he be allowed to resume power.

3. Experientially, even if you equate the Chinese form of government as an autocracy, it performed better than any other form of government in the last decade. Who else can (or did) produce double digit economic growth, leading to the doubling of living standards every 6 or 7 years? You can name any theocracy (there aren't that many left, and for good reason) in the world and compare the performance. There is no comparison.

Perspective:

a) I don't think I implied that autocracy is better than theocracy. I was speaking specifically about the CPP and the Lama regimes.

b) Probably depends on the person's class. Former Tibetan serfs would have a lot less grievances.

For the above two points, read [ http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html ]

c) I'm no expert on communism but I have read comments from other boards that the repression of political dissent is supposed to a temporary stage in the communist revolution theory. In the real world, no communist revolution has every passed this stage as the dictatorships became addicted to their power.

In a simpler world, it would be easy to say "might doesn't always make right". The problem I have is the hypocrisy of saying it. Look at the G7 countries: USA, Japan, UK, Germany, France, Canada, Italy. No one is innocent. On top of that, the US says nothing of Israel who is occupying the West Bank.

IMO, if mainland China is to change, it is going to be on her terms. China has already shown that she is willing to change its economic ideology. It's pretty obvious where they got their ideas on capitalism, isn't it? I believe political change will come to China. Taiwan was a dictatorship up until 1996. No spotlight was shone on Taiwan yet it became democratic on its own. The Taiwanese people are cut from the same cloth as the Chinese people. However, I believe that any progress will be delayed if the Chinese are made to feel that they are being picked on. A similar thing happened to Serbia. Many Serbians were pushing for change before NATO started bombing them. After the attacks started, Serbians rallied behind their president even though he was accused of war crimes.