Catholic Church and Immigration

THe problem with your, Arch. Bishop O'Mahoney's thought is that the system would become subject to misuse. Many, many would enter the country only to achieve citizenship. Would people feel forced to enter the country through the military.

Military service for eventual citizenship seems like a fair deal, especially if you're poor and uneducated, and have little to contribute otherwise besides labor.

"Military service for eventual citizenship seems like a fair deal, especially if you're poor and uneducated, and have little to contribute otherwise besides labor."

And that's the opinion of Paddy MacGee.

(Yes, this is kind of a tradition since the Civil War at least)

I just hope they get the citizenship if they have the temerity to *not* die.

And I gotta wonder what they'd do with you if you were a dead queer non-Christian immigrant who maybe served out a term of six years, dodged Immigration when you got stop-lossed, got shot somewhere and said while bleeding out, "Gods of my Mayan ancestors,I miss my gay lover."

Do they dishonorably discharge your corpse for breaking 'Don't Ask Don't Tell' and make your relatives fight for twenty years not to have a cross on your grave? :)

If it weren't for the influx of Catholic immigrants, both legal and illegal, American Catholicism would be in a pretty sorry state. Mahoney might even have to go get a real job. Heaven forbid.

I don't see anything too impressive about a predator working to guarantee himself a steady stream of prey.

" TJ:

If it weren't for the influx of Catholic immigrants, both legal and illegal, American Catholicism would be in a pretty sorry state. Mahoney might even have to go get a real job. Heaven forbid."

I think it's fair to say that without the influx of Irish Catholic immigrants pressed right into military service, anyone named O'Mahony would have a hard time having a job at all. :)

(And anyone who thinks Pagan names are funny, that means 'Of the tribe of Mahon, (the bear) ' and refers to one of the three sons of Cormac Cas, one of the first surnames instituted in Ireland by Brian Boru, when that high king thought it'd be a good idea. ;) )

"I don't see anything too impressive about a predator working to guarantee himself a steady stream of prey."

Neither do I. You interested in treating people fairly or not?

I don't see anything too impressive about a predator working to guarantee himself a steady stream of prey.

Don't kid yourself, the Catholic Church like corporate America has made a simple business decision...more illegals means a larger church audience on Sunday...7 outof 10 illegal aliens coming from South America are Catholic.

Mahoney's immigrants put money in the plate. The church generally goes where the money is and this is no exception.
I wonder if the good bishop would aggitate with so much fervor on behalf of--say--12 million muslim black immigrants from Africa. Unless he could hear the tinkle of coins and the crunch of dead presidents at the Offertory.

All of this whining about illegal immigration from the one-world Catholic Church is ridiculous. We are daily lectured on how America harms the environment. Do any of these bishops think about overpopulation because the Mexican population here is exploding. I guess because we are a "rich nation" so we should pay for everyone's economic assimilation. They don't want to be Americans; they want to be aliens earning money here without paying taxes and sending billions to Mexico.

The hate filled statements thrown at Mexicans smacks of the same kind of stuff thrown at Jews in Hitler's Germany. We even have energetic indiviudals happy to hold a rifle against women, children and men who walk across the border. Over 300 alone have died in the Tuscon area alone in the past 12 months. Don't forget, "What you do the least of them you do to me."

This whole overblown hysteria is powered by a feeling of ill will against the weaker and the outsiders. Otherwise nice people get duped into it by the label of "illegal" as though that made these people, for the most part decent and hardworking, somehow evil or subhuman. Amazing how easily duped the human race is when it comes to channeling their basic animal instincts of ill will.

Bring out the anti-immigrant and anti-catholic canards!

"Perverts, dirty migrants, child-birthers, taco eaters, idol worshipers!"

Ha.

The "humanists" and atheists on here show their true anti-human biases...

Is this On Faith or Pagan Place's online klan meeting???

PS - the Catholic people and Church of this country do more for the poor via hospitals, food banks, shelters etc. than ANY atheist or secular organization.

Put that in you pipe and smoke it you (anti) Humanists...

Speed123 -- You certainly do make the mistake of lumping people into groups without much basis. Look at my first post, for example, right under yours. That from one of the people you accuse of being taco haters. The world will take a big step forward when people stop lumping people so facilely.

PaganPlace writes: "You interested in treating people fairly or not?"

Sure. Especially when it serves my interests and keeps me from being a felon.

There are many false religions and Catholicism is one of them. It is one of the devil's religion. Here is what Jesus Christ had said of the Catholic heirarchy in the Book of Revelation.

"...thou hast tried (or tested) them who say they are apostles ("Catholic Church's apostolic succession doctrine"), but are not, and hast found them liars. " (Revelation 2:2)

In short, Catholicism is the devil's religion and if you're dealing with Arch. Bishop O'Mahoney
, you're dealing with the devil's advocate if not the devil himself.

I hope the average Catholic people would see this post as an eye opener and not as an insult to them. "Seek and ye shall find" and "the Truth shall make you free". Take heed to these words and set yourself free instead of fighting for the devil's cause.

Check this out : http://www.religion.bravehost.com

This is one of a rapidly increasing number of issues on which the Catholic clergy's interest diverges from the Catholic layman's. They want to fill the pews with immigrants who put money in the plate. We're left holding the bill. They don't care about skyrocketing welfare costs, because they don't pay taxes. "Common good", my ass. All they care about is their perks and privileges.

Yeah, probably some of them like the idea of bringing in lots of little boys whose parents could never call the police if there were a crime to report. But I don't think your average pervert thinks that far ahead.

"Is this On Faith or Pagan Place's online klan meeting???"

Are you crazy? I may not be Christian, but I took more than my share of lumps as a 'Papist Paddy' regardless, not that there was any thanks in it. :)

"PS - the Catholic people and Church of this country do more for the poor via hospitals, food banks, shelters etc. than ANY atheist or secular organization. "

Funny, but that's not the picture I got when I was homeless.

You really think the Church was there for me? Or anyone? You're fooling yourself. Maybe if you're lucky a bowl of soup to take on bended knee (Forget about it,) but it doesn't even get *near* the New Deal my family worked all their lives to pay into, and theocrats decided to pillage.

A deal's a deal. Even if you think a soup kitchen substitutes for the life my family worked for the town and state all their lives to provide.

Even for a queer. Even for a Pagan. Even for someone with a serious illness.

Period.

You wave a bowl of soup like it's gold to justify your bigotries. Forget about it. I was never quite *that* hungry.

I mean, really, I keep hearing it, but it's about the dumbest idea in my world, TJ.

'Christian charity' doesn't give you any kind of life where you can contribute to society rather than spend your life picking up scraps as a full-time job.

It does not house you or feed you or give you anything like a chance to get out of a bad situation you wouldn't be in in the first place if some Christian in a Social Security office didn't take it on themselves to decide, 'We don't serve your kind here.'

Just makes Christians 'feel good' somehow, while they wax moral about cutting the social services that *do* work, and would work a lot better if half the budget weren't in hiring people to make life as difficult for the disabled as possible.

Yes, some do nice and heartfelt work, but anyone who thinks that means you're ready to take care of the 'surplus population' is fooling themselves at best.

"Yeah, probably some of them like the idea of bringing in lots of little boys whose parents could never call the police if there were a crime to report. But I don't think your average pervert thinks that far ahead."

Trust me, someone did. Boston Archdiocese, even being a middle class white kid didn't help the boys. Girls, well, there was some protection. Boys were too scared of being damned as 'gay,' and who would believe, anyway.

I wasn't speaking to you Mr. Burns, I was speaking to the majority of lunatics and bigots on this forum - spiderman2, PaganPlace, TJ etc.

As for your great savior, the state, Pagan, you actually think that there will be an social security in 20 years? There is a deficit of 40+ TRILLION dollars in government entitlement programs...

And, who says that you should be able to support your family off of government handouts stolen from other citizens???

As for pedophilia, it occurs in ALL institutions and, since you love the secular state so much, it is at 10% in public schools with 5 million kids abused by teachers in the last several years! Google AP and school abuse for the story.

The media only focuses on abuse in the CC because it is not a liberal, relativist institution.

The Church is not perfect; however, the posters and bigots on here are clearly hateful of people who do more than spread vile words on the internet all day.

Get help.

Speed.

I was there.

And your figures are off, but if we can bail out predatory lenders, and savings and loans, and defense contractors, and Halliburton, we can have Social Security.

Long as you like.

Just gotta want it.

PS - it is the liberal, secular state not the Church that is attracting immigrants via incentives like free healthcare, school, etc. etc.

Want to blame someone? Blame the liberal politicians - McCain, Kennedy etc.

The Church is simply helping the workers that need assistance and are already here - it is not busing them over.

Of course, "humanists" like yourselves would probably round up the papists and shoot them if you had the chance.

"Of course, "humanists" like yourselves would probably round up the papists and shoot them if you had the chance."

Is there something you're trying to 'justify' with that, Speed?

Pagan,

Figures are not off ... they include medicare etc.

As for bailouts, I agree; however, there is a big difference between 30 billion to a bank and 30 TRILLION in unfunded mandates...

Sorry, Pagan, the government will not save you - it is the problem, not the solution.

We need strong and pluralistic institutions, such as the Catholic Church, community organizations, NGOs to have a strong and viable country.

If you look at the soviets you will notice that central planning does not work...

"Sorry, Pagan, the government will not save you - it is the problem, not the solution."

You speak of 'trillions' (like the war and tax cuts to the wealthiest are wasted on.)

You saying your Church got trillions it's willing to part with? While claiming it's 'anti-Catholic bigotry' to point out how I saw that institution treat its own kids and cover up?

Don't think so.

It's not 'pluralistic,' it opposes my rights in the United States every chance it gets. Claims it's all kind of noble while trying to blacklist candidates who don't happen to support the very wealthiest while claiming it's being 'persecuted' if someone of another religion says it's defaming us.

I'm not an 'anti-Catholic bigot,' ...as I've said, I have taken plenty of lumps as a 'Papist Paddy' in my own life, not that the Church exactly thanked me for it.

The way I see it is the Church *whines and attacks* whenever it's called out on anything. And what you accuse me of won't make the laboriously-earned disrespect go away.

I mean, Speed, you justify some really horrible stuff on this basis:

"The media only focuses on abuse in the CC because it is not a liberal, relativist institution."

If the Church is so absolute and *moral,* why did my juvenile friends who couldn't go to the cops, or me, for that matter, have to go through all we did?

Why did Cardinal Law, after finally getting caught for the coverup we all knew was happening, get rewarded with a Vatican post instead of handed over to the authorities?

The Church is 'morally relative,' all right, ...relative to its own power, and Gods help you, (Thanks, Gods) if you happen to be underfoot.

Phhhhbt. :)

Any who really care to understand the Roman Catholic Church's position on illegal immigration need only obtain a copy of their published stratagem for taking over the United States by promoting it: The National Pastoral Plan for Hispanic Ministry. It is available at the Library of Congress, Amazon.com, or your area's RC Diocesan Library.

If an energized majority continues to refrain from learning The Founders "Whig" perspective, failing to think historically to recognize that Rome is, as Our Founder and Prophet, Thomas Jefferson, told us, "the real Anti-Christ, its Fifth Column shall continue to treasonously prosper...having assassinated our leaders, committed false wars, and lately cheating into the White House the 9-11-committing, homosexual, draft-dodging grandson of Hitler's banker.

theamericanfundament.blogspot.com

Overpopulation, congestion, urban sprawl, pollution, environmental damage, crime, diminishing resources, Diseases, lack of affordable housing, depressed wages, underground economic, fraudulent documents, identity thief, tax invasion, soaring crime rate, increased tax burdens, overcrowded schools, uneducated children, overcrowded prisons, inadequate health care, the balkanization of our communities and a large and growing population with loyally to other Nations, the overall decline in our quality of life are the result of unconstrained illegal immigration! America cannot accept the worlds population of other Nations Criminals, Undesirables and Uneducated Peons. Too many people chasing too few resources is not sound economic, social or cultural policy. This is not racism but pragmatism & common sense! Every industrialized nation has taken steps to end illegal immigration and to limit legal immigration to only that which is prudent, demonstrably necessary, and above all other concerns, in the best interest of their native population. Its insane to suggest that America should not do likewise!

The illegal invasion can only be understood by the corrupting influence on politicians of money for cheap labor for the Republicans or the Welfare votes for the Democrats that makes them dishonor their Oath of Office, the US Constitution against Invasion, and Enforcement of our Immigration Laws!

"their published stratagem for taking over the United States"

I've just got this wild notion that if you don't want the United States taken over by a religion, it might be a bit simpler to, ummm, hold to American ideals like secular democracy, like it was a Republic rather than, say, freak out about particular brand names. :)

You are stereotyping, Pagan, and I am sure that this is something you abhor when it is used against you...

I am not justifying wrong doing, I am putting it in context....something the media does not do.

Abuse is DOUBLE in public schools and that is a little know fact, so perhaps you should save some of your ire for secular teachers employed with your tax dollars that sexually abuse their students - for family members for that fact.

As for fight for the "rights of the wealthy" this is another tired canard used, first, by protestants and now by secularists.

Nothing could be farther from the truth and it is ironic that you use the same line of attack as the radical Pilgrims, isnt it?

One experience, no matter how horrible, does not make an entire culture of one billion people.

You can disagree with policy/theology, but drop the canards and stereotypes please.

PaganPlace,

I live in South Florida. After Katrina or Wilma, I don't remember which, we were out of power for 5 or 6 days (both times). One of the Christian churches in my predominantly Jewish neighborhood set up a free BBQ. They had an "Everyone welcome.. free food!" sign up. They served nothing but pork.

In general, Christian charity is an oxymoron. Find me a Christian doing something charitable AND keeping his bizarro religion to himself and it'll be a real red letter day.

Speed123 wrote : "I wasn't speaking to you Mr. Burns, I was speaking to the majority of lunatics and bigots on this forum - spiderman2, ... etc."

Fools despise instruction. Study your Bible and see if I'm lying. The Vatican is the seat of Satan and that's what the Bible says. No wonder your church has a history of burning bibles. You worship the devil without knowing it. Are you a priest?

********

There are many false religions and Catholicism is one of them. It is one of the devil's religion. Here is what Jesus Christ had said of the Catholic heirarchy in the Book of Revelation.

"...thou hast tried (or tested) them who say they are apostles ("Catholic Church's apostolic succession doctrine"), but are not, and hast found them liars. " (Revelation 2:2)

In short, Catholicism is the devil's religion and if you're dealing with Arch. Bishop O'Mahoney
, you're dealing with the devil's advocate if not the devil himself.

I hope the average Catholic people would see this post as an eye opener and not as an insult to them. "Seek and ye shall find" and "the Truth shall make you free". Take heed to these words and set yourself free instead of fighting for the devil's cause.

Check this out : http://www.religion.bravehost.com

Speed123,

You should make a research on how deep your church is involved in humanism, evolution, communism and all the stuff that's causing this world to collapse soon.

You're a foolish man defending the devil's invention which is Catholicism.

You catholics are duped by your church without knowing it.

See what I mean?

All of these perceived slights fit into your little world of hate even though I am sure this was the last thing on their mind/agenda considering the catastrophe.

Wow!

As GK Chesterton said: only the madman and the materialist (atheist) have no doubts...

It must take so much energy to be filled with paranoia/hate all day long....

did you ever read "notes from the underground"? It is Dostoevsy's critique on the humanist mindset.

Catholics comprise the majority in Massachusetts and see how the state has become . Gay marriage, abortion, liberal idealogies, and everything which the devil is happy about.

Any good thing Catholicism preaches is just a facade. They need those facade so it can hold like an eggshell which holds the rotten yolk inside.

Sorry spiddy,

I try not to reply to the crazies on here; however, you should stay on the meds.

Communism, eh? Like the communism that John Paul defeated in Poland and the Eastern block? (with a bit of help from the US and UK)

Humanism? Right...

You know that you are onto something when posters attack you from both sides.

Good luck with the conspiracy theories, Spiddy. Are you a member of Hagee's mega church, btw?

Speed123,
Have you heard of the phrase, "the wolf in sheep's clothing?". That is what I want this world to know about. They are not all sheep. A lot are ravening wolves.And if you don't know how to distinguise them, then it's clear that you are eaten alive.

c ya later

can't reply now , c my reply later. make a research so you'll not be duped.

back 1848 when the Union Army invaded Mexico, Catholic Irish deserted in droves to join the Mexican army. The reason that the union army was very prejudice against Roman Catholics and The Irish saw the injustice and been Catholics themselves it didn't take long to join a loosing cause.

Still to-day after reading all that garbage against the Catholic church makes no sense with the same hate and with same never ending ignorant attitude...I don't understand most of you people seldom go to church, or even seen the inside on one.

"Abuse is DOUBLE in public schools and that is a little know fact,"

If it's a fact at all, but it's certainly there.

You really think that if you're getting stomped in public schools for being a queer girl, then slapped around by the administrator for being a 'troublesome Paddy,' that you can run to the Church where the boys from Sunday School are getting diddled?

Bah.

Thing about this Catholic persecution complex is, you demand you have some absolute moral authority over others, then when someone points out, 'Hey, what about these crimes I saw you do and everyone knows you covered up, you say, 'Look over there! That's *worse!* So I'm still perfect!

'Moral relativism,' indeed.

Forget about it.

" spiderman2:

Catholics comprise the majority in Massachusetts and see how the state has become . Gay marriage, abortion, liberal idealogies, and everything which the devil is happy about. "

Guess your Devil must like some of the lowest rates of divorce, domestic abuse, violent crime, illiteracy, and teen pregnancy in the nation, then.

I mean, mind you, Speed, I'm still Catholic enough not to take crap from Protestants about the whole 'Dirty Papist' thing, but that doesn't mean the Church skates on the obvious misdeeds, especially when it's trying to interfere in my life as a free American that's seen the worst in them in the first place.

Heck, the Church still *counts* me as a good Catholic when it suits them.

There are many false religions and Catholicism is one of them. It is one of the devil's religion. Here is what Jesus Christ had said of the Catholic heirarchy in the Book of Revelation.

"...thou hast tried (or tested) them who say they are apostles ("Catholic Church's apostolic succession doctrine"), but are not, and hast found them liars. " (Revelation 2:2).

to the above comment, I have two words for you Moran, one is a verb and the other one is a pronoun!

I want to remind everyone that the good Cardinal Mahony did everything is his power to protect priets who molested children. First, he played move the priest from place to place to cover up their conduct. Then he fought in court to protect them and took his case to the Supreme Court. He should be in jail.

I want to remind everyone that the good Cardinal Mahony did everything is his power to protect priets who molested children. First, he played move the priest from place to place to cover up their conduct. Then he fought in court to protect them and took his case to the Supreme Court. He should be in jail.

I want to remind everyone that the good Cardinal Mahony did everything is his power to protect priets who molested children. First, he played move the priest from place to place to cover up their conduct. Then he fought in court to protect them and took his case to the Supreme Court. He should be in jail.

I want to remind everyone that the good Cardinal Mahony did everything is his power to protect priets who molested children. First, he played move the priest from place to place to cover up their conduct. Then he fought in court to protect them and took his case to the Supreme Court. He should be in jail.

There are many false religions and Catholicism is one of them. It is one of the devil's religion. Here is what Jesus Christ had said of the Catholic heirarchy in the Book of Revelation.

"...thou hast tried (or tested) them who say they are apostles ("Catholic Church's apostolic succession doctrine"), but are not, and hast found them liars. " (Revelation 2:2).

to the above comment, I have two words for you Moran, one is a verb and the other one is a pronoun!

See, now, Frank, after what I've just said, I've got to call you some nasty words. Several are nouns, verbs, adjectives, suffice it to say the list is extensive.

General point is you *ain't* better than the Catholic Church, especially not talking like that about devils and such and quoting books to claim people are 'the devil's' Coulda stayed with *them* if I wanted to hear more of that, and you may notice I haven't darkened *your* door, either.

Speaking of 'isms.'

Maybe you guys could work that out among yourselves... quietly, for once, before getting up in the rest of the world's business.

Guys please can we stop fighting each other over religion? we are in a 21st century for god sake. I am a Muslim person from south Asia. I don't see any reason to throw mud to catholicism and others. And about immigrants or illegal immigrants, do you think you can stop it when your ancestors was immigrants too? For Christ/Allah/god sake please stop hating each other cause people dying over this everyday. We are human being and its simple to understand that humans will go place to place in search of good life, peace, financial goals. Its better if you take a deep breathe and think that if you give SSN to the illegals they will definitely pay taxes to insure their retirement. This is a god gifted land if you believe in god, every human being has rights to see whatever gods creations are. I am Muslim and currently living with catholic/Mormon/protestant people under the same roof. I was an Illegal immigrant too. I wanted to go to university paying my own money not your tax money. Do you think thats a crime being illegal when I am only here for educations? Since most of the good professors/teachers/researchers/scientist in this country, I had to get a visa waiting on a long list to get here. After 2 months in USA my visa was expired and I had to go to USCIS office to put me on a student visa so I can go to university. Guys to be honest with you Immigration system and people working with it are the most crook people. I worked for this country teaching its young citizens about geography/history/2nd language so they can grow smart. And also I worked in my home country with American center. When I became out of status and went to immigration office for some help I was handed a piece of paper call notice of action how do you like that? But I don't hate anybody.

To all my brothers in this forum:

A by born white American citizen selling drugs on the street and a person without legal documents working hard to make some money to feed his children, which one do you support? Obviously American MAN right?

Sorry if I hurt anyone

Anyway, kids, let's see what we've learned, here.

Not-agreeing-with-the-Church and wanting the Church to stay out of one's private life, to wit, saying, 'No.'

Not 'anti-Catholic bigotry.'

You want anti-Catholic bigotry, I commend you to the good attentions of the guys who like to say 'W of Babylon' a lot.

Hey,people of Earth!

Could you just get out of your limited box and see from above how small you are on your planet Earth, fighting over small things...

Just checking in and shooting for the last word ;)

Pagan, the point is not that abuse is worse in pubic schools, at temple, or in families - my point is that abuse is found in all institutions and that bigots and secular humanists try to have this "ah ha" moment by saying that it is a majority Catholic problem.

This gotcha moment that you think you have accomplished is an illusion.

The Church NEVER claimed that all of its members are perfect (in fact the sacraments are created for sinners - clergy included) but it does offer objective truth to those who wish to accept it.

I am sorry you had a rough time in Catholic institutions; however, you should learn more about the ideas that you are trying to demonize/show as hypocritical.

Goodnight and thanks for the interesting conversation.

"Pagan, the point is not that abuse is worse in pubic schools, at temple, or in families - my point is that abuse is found in all institutions and that bigots and secular humanists try to have this "ah ha" moment by saying that it is a majority Catholic problem"

No, I don't care if it's 'majority.' Someone else allegedly doing wrong *more* doesn't change or 'absolve' what's happened. It's *wrong.* It also means you can't run around claiming absolutist authority over *others* you accuse of 'moral relativism' and thus less able to judge their own lives than an institution that claims 'absolute' morality while defending *that.*

"I was there and I saw what you did.
Saw it with my own two eyes.
So you can wipe off that grin
I know where you been
It's all been a pack of lies."

Know what that song meant to a lot of kids, when their lives were being messed up and the Church was ready to call them liars if they *did* stand up?

To wit, I don't care if 'all the other kids are doing it,' you don't get to claim 'absolute morality' to try and rule my life with. Period.

" Alien Forever:

Hey,people of Earth!

Could you just get out of your limited box and see from above how small you are on your planet Earth, fighting over small things..."

Hey, Alien, It may not look like much to you, but it's home. ;)

The Catholic church is the biggest financial power, wealth accumulator and property owner in existence. She is a greater possessor of material riches than any other single institution, corporation, bank, giant trust, government or state of the whole globe. The pope, as the visible ruler of this immense amassment of wealth, is consequently the richest individual of the twentieth century. No one can realistically assess how much he is worth in terms of billions of dollars."

"The Vatican's treasure of solid gold has been estimated by the United Nations World Magazine to amount to several billion dollars. A large bulk of this is stored in gold ingots with the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank, while banks in England and Switzerland hold the rest. But this is just a small portion of the wealth of the Vatican, which in the U.S. alone, is greater than that of the five wealthiest giant corporations of the country. When to that is added all the real estate, property, stocks and shares abroad, then the staggering accumulation of the wealth of the Catholic church becomes so formidable as to defy any rational assessment.

It's just all about mo money,mo money!

When I was but a wee boy I prayed and prayed to god to bring me a bike...when I wised up and realized the church did not work that way...I stole one and asked forgiveness.

But seriously, A good portion of church leadership should be in jail for criminal conspiracy for the sex abuse..all the way to the pope. It amounts to gov't sponsered and legally tax free organized crime.

The Church has no business getting itself involved in politics. If I was a Catholic politician would O'Mahoney expect me to cast my vote according to his dictates?
The tax exempt status of O'Mahoney's churches should be removed if the Archbishop keeps interfering in areas which are political in nature.
Too, he is abusing and misusing his moral authority.

"The Church has no business getting itself involved in politics".

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa

Tell that to the prolifers.

What's the matter Kellamd, you never heard of the following group?

"Atheist and Agnostic Pro-Life League
Homepage
A nontheistic and nonreligious opposition to the life-denying horror of abortion"

You really should catch up.

>I want to remind everyone that the good Cardinal Mahony did everything is his power to protect priets who molested children. First, he played move the priest from place to place to cover up their conduct. Then he fought in court to protect them and took his case to the Supreme Court. He should be in jail.<

To hep defray the costs of the settlements when his role in the peophelia scandal was exposed, he was forced to sell some valuable real estate. One of them was a home a group of nuns had lived in for years. They were informed they would have to vacate and "sooner would be better."

Mahoney, the phony, is not a good guy. He's an opportunist who knows that without the influx of Hispanic Catholics, the RC Church is not sustainable. It's too late for him to try and reclaim the moral high ground. He lost it years ago.

As a Catholic, I say that the Catholic Church does not have the moral right to readjust the demographics of this country to its liking. The Catholic Church does not have the moral right to decide that the United States will become a Latin American country for reasons that have nothing to do with charity and everything to do with institutional self interest.

Cardinal Mahoney, who stood by and watched while West Coast seminaries turned into, essentially, gay bathhouses with crosses, has no moral authority whatsoever to wink at lawlessness for reasons that are completely and totally self-serving.

Overpopulation, congestion, urban sprawl, pollution, environmental damage, crime, diminishing resources, Diseases, lack of affordable housing, depressed wages, underground economic, fraudulent documents, identity thief, tax invasion, soaring crime rate, increased tax burdens, overcrowded schools, uneducated children, overcrowded prisons, inadequate health care, the balkanization of our communities and a large and growing population with loyally to other Nations, the overall decline in our quality of life are the result of unconstrained illegal immigration! America cannot accept the worlds population of other Nations Criminals, Undesirables and Uneducated Peons. Too many people chasing too few resources is not sound economic, social or cultural policy. This is not racism but pragmatism & common sense! Every industrialized nation has taken steps to end illegal immigration and to limit legal immigration to only that which is prudent, demonstrably necessary, and above all other concerns, in the best interest of their native population, not of the Catholic church, business owners looking for cheap labor, subsidized by tax payers, or other special interest etc. Its insane to suggest that America should not do likewise!

The illegal invasion can only be understood by the corrupting influence on politicians of money for cheap labor for the Republicans or the Welfare votes for the Democrats that makes them dishonor their Oath of Office, the US Constitution against Invasion, and Enforcement of our Immigration Laws!

I see the Klan is out in force here. Good to see you can take time off from cross burning to post your racist and xenophobic attacks on immigrants.

What's wrong with amnesty? We gave a mass amnesty to the rebel traitors after the War of Southern Treason. Bush gave an amnesty to Scooter Libre. We can give an amnesty to people who work hard and stay out of trouble. At least they work, unlike the KKKers.

Hey, KKKers, you lost. The issue is off the table. You couldn't keep McCain from getting the GOP nomination. We are guaranteed a President who supports amnesty. Why don't you do us all a favor and crawl back under your rocks, before you die of apoplexy.

Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s - Matthew 22:21

"Ceasar", demands that anyone entering the US must have permission and documentatation. Anyone working in the US must have permission and documentation. No ambiguity and no waffle-room. It's the LAW.

To circumvent those laws, most illegals forge or purchase fake/stolen identifications. In other words, they lie about who they are by stealing someone elses good name. Those who opine that illegal aliens "only want to work" and "aren't hurting anyone" has never known anyone put out of business by labor cheats nor been the victim of identity theft.

Feeding the hungry is an admirable action, but abetting theives with their illegal activities is NOT "christian charity"...it's illegal, it's immoral, and it's flat out wrong.

"Green card" soldiers should at least have green cards, not be illegal aliens as Mr. Gutierrez was. If he hadn't died in a war, should the military have overlooked his illegal status and his crime in lying to enter the military? Somehow, that doesn't seem to square with what I've always heard about the military's honor code.

I also can't help but wonder at the morality of the good Cardinal's position. If these were millions of Arab Muslims who were in the US illegally, would he be so eager to see them granted legal status? I somehow doubt it. As an Arab-American myself (not a Muslim) I'm more than a little tired of self-serving claims that we should not enforce our immigration laws.

Garak wrote;"I see the Klan is out in force here. Good to see you can take time off from cross burning to post your racist and xenophobic attacks on immigrants.

What's wrong with amnesty? We gave a mass amnesty to the rebel traitors after the War of Southern Treason. Bush gave an amnesty to Scooter Libre. We can give an amnesty to people who work hard and stay out of trouble. At least they work, unlike the KKKers."

We gave an amnesty to 3 million illegal aliens in 1986, remember? And ended up with 20 million more now, and counting. All amnesty does is attract more illegal aliens. Since the 1986 amnesty, one country, Mexico, has dominated our LEGAL immigration because those who got amnesty were then able to sponsor THEIR relatives for residency under family reunification. How is this fair to other countries, other ethnicities? Furthermore, the rate of welfare usage among Hispanics far exceeds that of other ethnic/racial groups. They may work, but they're the working poor whom the rest of us end up subsidizing.

Garak wrote:'Hey, KKKers, you lost. The issue is off the table. You couldn't keep McCain from getting the GOP nomination. We are guaranteed a President who supports amnesty. Why don't you do us all a favor and crawl back under your rocks, before you die of apoplexy."

Bush has supported amnesty for all 8 years of his presidency, even cooperated with the Democrats to try to get it, and look where that got him--and illegal aliens--nowhere. If anything, the popular backlash is stronger now, particularly as we head into a recession. Lots of local and state governments passing laws to address the problem, and backtracking on things such as issuing driver's licenses to illegals.

The Church Jesus Christ Built

In Matthew 16:18 Jesus said, "And I say unto thee (referring to Peter), that thou art Peter (petro or stone or rock), and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

In Acts 15:7 Peter said, " ...Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice (or selected) among us, that the Gentiles (or we the people who are not Jews) by my mouth (or thru his preaching) should hear the word of the gospel, and believe."

In verse 9 & 11, he continues, " And put no difference between us (Jews) and them (Gentiles), purifying their hearts by faith ... But we believe that thru the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

If we read the whole of Acts 15, those words of Peter were made to clear up matters in which some of the members of the church (newly converted Pharisees) want to include the law of Moses in order to be saved.

Prior to this event or dispute, Apostle Paul and Barnabas had been preaching to the Gentiles the salvation of souls thru faith in Jesus Christ . In Acts 14:27 it says, "... and how He (God) had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles." Also in Acts 13:39 it says " And by Him (Jesus Christ) all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses."

In the midst of the debate, Apostle Peter, whom Jesus Christ had first chosen to preach the gospel to the Gentiles, stood up and confirmed the teaching of Apostle Paul that indeed salvation is by grace thru faith in Jesus Christ which is made possible thru the enlightening of the Holy Spirit. In the eyes of God, nobody can satisfactorily follow the "unveiled" law of Moses unless dwelt upon by the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ. One of the "veiled" law of Moses is circumcision of the foreskin but its true or unveiled meaning is that of the "circumcision of the heart" or being "born-again" in other words (Romans 2:29).

It was taught upon the Catholic people that their church was started by Peter. Many believe it and for this reason many choose to stand by this church and defend "what Peter had started".

But in reality, the Catholic Church has been a fierce enemy to the doctrine propagated by Peter, Paul, the other Apostles and of Jesus Christ. When Martin Luther (a former priest) floated the idea of "justification by faith", which the apostles especially Peter and Paul had long ago preached to the Gentiles, all hell broke loose and it caused many terrible wars and massacres done by the church just to suppress that doctrine. If Peter and Paul were present during those time when Catholicism was at its peak of power and had they changed their names to avoid recognition, they too could have been burned at the stake also for preaching "justification by faith".

Despite the tremendous power of the Roman Catholic Church during that time, it didn't succeed to extinguish that holy doctrine coz as what Jesus Christ had said, " the gates of hell shall not prevail against it ". As what Martin Luther had said, "the body they may kill : but God's truth abideth still". And true enough it still abides today and even gave birth to a great nation (In God We Trust) and it will continue to abide even to the end of time. [ But this nation will suffer or be punished because of the foolishness (rising atheism, sexual promiscuity, gay marriage, garbage music, TV programs & movies centered on sex) which some or many of its people, who are ignorant of that holy doctrine, are promoting. With Catholicism, liberal Protestantism, atheism and other false religions slowly "invading" it, God won't spare parts of that nation to feel the brunt of His anger.]

For a very long time upto now, the salvation doctrine of Catholicism has been the sacraments like infant baptism, confession to the priests and penance, holy communion, confirmation, etc. Some even consider the role of Mary in their salvation plan. It just couldn't stop of thinking what really could save a person coz in reality, they really don't know and that explains why they have so many ways.

Justification by faith was never a part of their salvation doctrine and anybody who espoused that idea during those dark centuries were properly dealt with.

It must be noted that no Apostle ever performed infant baptism; no Apostle had a confession booth and gave penance; no Apostle performed the holy communion for the salvation of souls and neither was "confirmation" used by them. Also, no Apostle prayed to Mary for intercession to God. Whatever Catholicism has been teaching their flock like lighting candles, praying the rosary, praying to the saints, reciting prayer books, getting their properties blessed with "holy water", no Apostle ever did those things coz they are just purely Catholicism's own inventions. And as always, man's inventions especially if it pertains to godliness always fall short with God's standards. No person can ever make his own way to Heaven. It's either God's way or no way.

Catholicism was not the church Jesus Christ built in which Peter and the rest of the Apostles was tasked to propagate. On the contrary it is the church which persecuted and tried to destroy God's true church.

Jesus Christ had said, "upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." This said church is already present with us and its not Catholicism, nor liberal Protestantism, nor Judaism, nor Islam, nor Hinduism, nor Taoism, nor Buddhism nor any other big or small religion that may name Christ but has other ways of salvation other than the simple faith in Jesus Christ which He personally gives to whoever He sees fit to receive it.

********

If we hear the words "God bless America", it may not refer to all Americans but as a nation, it is true.

If we hear the words "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound", it may be America's favorite hymn and was written just a few years before America became a sovereign nation but the essence of that song started roughly 2000 years ago, when Peter stood up in defense of Paul and proclaimed the foundation in which the true church of God would stand --- salvation by grace thru faith in Jesus Christ. No other else.

Man did not make America, God did. And why is that? It's because He lives in the hearts of many of them who believe and live that doctrine.

The Catholic church only care about the illegal aliens money in the collection baskets !!!

MD J Leon wrote:"For Christ/Allah/god sake please stop hating each other cause people dying over this everyday. We are human being and its simple to understand that humans will go place to place in search of good life, peace, financial goals. Its better if you take a deep breathe and think that if you give SSN to the illegals they will definitely pay taxes to insure their retirement."

No, Mr. Leon, you fail to understand that what makes this country successful is in large measure respect for the law. Laws provide a framework for a civil society and for free enterprise. The lack of them and lack of respect for them is behind much of the strife and poverty in the world. "Giving an SSN to illegals" does nothing to ensure that they assimilate to this society. In fact, we legalized 3 million illegals in 1986 and more at various times since through programs such as 245i and TPS, and all we've gotten is more illegal immigration and more demands from legalized illegals that we give amnesty to THEIR illegal friends and relatives. We are slowly but surely turning our country into the same kind of corrupt societies that these illegal aliens came from.

I can't help but wonder...

The Catholic Church has been a major force in the lives of Catholics in Latin America for several centuries. How is it that it has failed so abysmally to improve the lot of its parishoners there that so many feel compelled to immigrate illegally? Could it have anything to do with the Church's failure to teach personal responsibility and to allow birth control? After all, Mexico has the 14th largest GDP in the world, but is poor in part because of its large population which lowers GDP per capita. Mr. Mahoney should note that turning the US into a Catholic country won't improve the lot of illegal aliens, but simply destroy what Americans have built here.

"frank carter:
back 1848 when the Union Army invaded Mexico, Catholic Irish deserted in droves to join the Mexican army. The reason that the union army was very prejudice against Roman Catholics and The Irish saw the injustice and been Catholics themselves it didn't take long to join a loosing cause."

Now, could the prejudice against Catholic Irish possibly have been out of fear that they'd put their religion before country? Which is precisely what they did. Remember that the concern about electing JFK was that he'd take orders from the Pope?

ALI wrote : "We are slowly but surely turning our country into the same kind of corrupt societies that these illegal aliens came from."

And most of these corrupt countries are Catholic ones. It's a sh*me they call themselves Christians when it's clear they don't have a blblical kind of Christianity.

They don't even want to translate the Bible to languages that can be understood by their followers but insists on using that dead language Latin translation.

Whatever Bible we have now in other languages was not initiated by this church. It was only realized over their dead bodies thru series of wars.

The Mexican stand against the Texans was a great Catholic moment, and an embarassment for the USA in terms of any moral standing. Mexico, being a Catholic country, did not have legalized slavery. The Texans wanted slaves, and so they declared independence and ceded. If the Irish chose religion over country, in this instance, it's a proud moment for Irish Catholicism and morality. Another example of the Church holding a moral line, where everyone else looks out for himself and denies there is any such thing as a moral line.

"...thou hast tried (or tested) them who say they are apostles ("Catholic Church's apostolic succession doctrine"), but are not, and hast found them LIARS. " (Revelation 2:2)

Mexico, being a Catholic country, did not have legalized slavery. American Texans wanted to have African slaves, and therefore decided to steal Mexican land and create an independent nation. If the Irish Catholics, out of a moral stand informed by their religion, deserted the pro-slavery effort--it sounds like it's a proud moment for Mexico, the Irish, and the Catholic Church. (And an embarrasment for America's claim to moral superiority.) Just another example of the Catholic Church holding a moral line, when others claim there is no such thing as a moral line out of a utilitarian desire to do something immoral. For another example, look at that Cardinal in Britain speaking out against human-animal hybrids.

Peter wrote : "Just another example of the Catholic Church holding a moral line,"

Or maybe just another lie? These church uses lies to establish their church. Even God called them LIARS.

In the midst of the debate, Apostle Peter, whom Jesus Christ had first chosen to preach the gospel to the Gentiles, stood up and confirmed the teaching of Apostle Paul that indeed salvation is by grace thru faith in Jesus Christ which is made possible thru the enlightening of the Holy Spirit. In the eyes of God, nobody can satisfactorily follow the "unveiled" law of Moses unless dwelt upon by the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ. One of the "veiled" law of Moses is circumcision of the foreskin but its true or unveiled meaning is that of the "circumcision of the heart" or being "born-again" in other words (Romans 2:29).

It was taught upon the Catholic people that their church was started by Peter. Many believe it and for this reason many choose to stand by this church and defend "what Peter had started".

But in reality, the Catholic Church has been a fierce enemy to the doctrine propagated by Peter, Paul, the other Apostles and of Jesus Christ. When Martin Luther (a former priest) floated the idea of "justification by faith", which the apostles especially Peter and Paul had long ago preached to the Gentiles, all hell broke loose and it caused many terrible wars and massacres done by the church just to suppress that doctrine. If Peter and Paul were present during those time when Catholicism was at its peak of power and had they changed their names to avoid recognition, they too could have been burned at the stake also for preaching "justification by faith".

We allready use illegal immigrants to do hard work for low pay, (which lowers american wages). Now according to this article we are using them to fight our wars plus this cardinal is trying to use them to recatholicize this country as well. (nothing wrong with being a catholic, I am one)

The way we are using illigal immigrants is utterly disgusting. People who come to this country illegally should not be allowed to join the military, they should be sent back to Mexico.

Offering illegal immigrants citizenship in exchange for fighting in our military is no different then hiring foreign mercinaries.

Well, we now know there are key words that prevent posting in this forum. Let's try again:

Cardinal Mahoney?

Cardinal Rivera?

Mexican State of Puebla?

Hiding?

"Father" Aguilar?

little boys?

Spiderman2:

Why do you hate catholicism so much? And don't you think its a pretty big stretch to extend a statement in Revelation about false teachers in the first century to a condemnation of the Catholic Church as a religion of the Devil.

For what its worth, the Catholic Church teaches that you need more than faith, you need action to demonstrate your faith. In fact, Jesus himself is very specific about justification by fatih alone being insufficient for salvation. He says (from Matt 7: 21):" Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."

St. James expounds upon this as well in his Epistle (from the second chapter:)
14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Spiderman2:

Why do you hate catholicism so much? And don't you think its a pretty big stretch to extend a statement in Revelation about false teachers in the first century to a condemnation of the Catholic Church as a religion of the Devil.

For what its worth, the Catholic Church teaches that you need more than faith, you need action to demonstrate your faith. In fact, Jesus himself is very specific about justification by fatih alone being insufficient for salvation. He says (from Matt 7: 21):" Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."

St. James expounds upon this as well in his Epistle (from the second chapter:)
14
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
15
If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day,
16
and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, "You have faith and I have works." Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.
19
You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble.
20
Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.
23
Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."
24
See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
25
And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by a different route?
26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Ms. Hoffman's column perfectly captures the knee-jerk Left's mind set. Trying to think of the downtrodden and the disenfranchised by overlooking the huge problems that simple-minded approach has caused.

She seems to think that if we were all better Christians like the Cardinal, we would all share her opinion.

The fact is that most anti mass immigration folks have seen the problem caused by the approach. Unemployment, gridlocked social services, a crappy school system, huge environmental issues, decades worth of flat wages. That's what comes with trying to give every poor person in the world a job in the good old USA.

Ms. Hoffman's approach would certainly help the folks getting a job here but it hurts America in all kinds of ways and she doesn't see that because she's wearing these feel-good blinders.

Ms. Hoffman may not be helping America much but she gets to feel like she's more moral than those of us that are trying to make this country better.

If the catholic church is so for imigration would the church consider taking Latinos into vatican city for assimliation into the population. I don't think so but the church tells others how to pay for other peoples at the expence of their own citizens.

Forget anti-semitism, anti-Catholicism is now the top pick for bigots and the conspiracy minded.

The Church is not influencing immigration "for more money" as some idiots on here state, they are reacting to a human problem created by Nafta and the federal government.

Someone has to help the poor workers and that has traditionally been the role of the Catholic community.

As for perverts etc. this is a typical canard. There are more offenders in public schools and protestant churches than in the Catholic church.

As for the anti-human and cheap nature of atheists/liberals, check out this post article today:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/26/AR2008032602916.html?nav=hcmodule

Mahony is a two-bit criminal. Accessory to felony indecency with a child. Aiding and abetting a criminal felon who also committed unlawful flight from justice. Why are you Catholics so defensive and protective of this abomination to God? Why do you look the other way?

Irrespective of all this amnesty and immigrant's rights debate, we are left with one simple fact: It is completely impossible to solve Latin America's poverty by permitting unrestricted, or even high volume, immigration into the United States. All that would accomplish is to move the problem from Latin America to North America. The United States has finite space in which to absorb immigration no matter how they arrive or what "justice" might say about it. There is a population of about 300 million already here. Just how many of the population of Latin America could relocate here and still find the economic benefit they seek, let alone even find space to live.

It is time for each side to stop the rhetoric and seek practical long term solutions to the poverty of the south which leaves the majority of the population there in situ.

That said, there is no practical way, either, to round up the the 10-15 million illegal immigrants already here. What is needed is some way to staunch the in-flow and to treat these human beings as that. Yes, they have committed a crime by illegally coming here, but they ARE here and we will need to find a way to deal with THAT fact because there is NO serious way to do anything else.

Hey Roy,

Since you are so interested in child abuse, why not spend some of your time reviewing the millions of children abused in the secular public schools and attacking high level administrators who shelter and move liberal teachers who abuse from school to school?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/21/AR2007102100144.html

Three cheers for Cardinal Roger Mahony and his work with immigrants.

And thank you for this story Mrs. Hoffman. I have not completely lost my faith in the religious. You and the Cardinal both give me hope.

Cardinal Mahony's position on citizenship for enlistment and defending our freedoms is correct.

However threatening civil disobedience is way out of line.

The leadership of any church should not be so "politically involved". God doesn’t allow it, nor does this country.
They should, however, encourage their followers to get involved and vote based upon how they feel about the issues, (as the LDS church does).

Civil disobedience is not the answer.

Mark

Am I the only person who scrolls past spiderman2's rants (and a few others)? Guys, these multiple posts are like a bothersome blinking light...it's easier to look away than to take you seriously. The number of posts from the same people suggests that you need someone to listen to you. There are people out there who can help. Just pick up the phone and call a doctor they can direct you to real help.

Good Luck

To Speed123: So others do it and that makes it OK for a CARDINAL OF THE CHURCH to cover it up and hide criminals????

LDS Mark: You say, "The leadership of any church should not be so 'politically involved". God doesn’t allow it, nor does this country." How do you justify, then, the Mormon church, hiding behind its tax exempt status, spending over a million dollars supporting anti-gay initiatives in states like California and Alaska among others?

I didn't say that, did I Roy?

I am saying that your bile/slander can be used against liberal, secular institutions just as it can against religious.

Aren't the tolerant and relativist public schools supposed to educate our children....not harass/molest them?

Where is your anger/outrage at these high level officials that aid and albeit criminals in the schools - is it OK if a liberal commits such crimes (and do so in much higher numbers)?

You take high profile cases and then use them slander an entire people.

This is called stereotyping...a tactic you should know something about and be against.

I'm a lifelong Catholic, and it makes me sick that way the Catholic bishops are on the wrong side of this issue. I would venture to say that a great deal of us are on the side of law and order. All their talk about "justice" and "compassion" - balderdash. We do have justice and compassion - it is called the largest legal immigration numbers in the world. Anything else is just plain wrong and cannot be justified. Especially when Americans are getting their identity stolen, their hospitals closed, their borders trashed, and their wages reduced.

Paul C. wrote : "Why do you hate catholicism so much? And don't you think its a pretty big stretch to extend a statement in Revelation about false teachers in the first century to a condemnation of the Catholic Church as a religion of the Devil."

Paul, I hate Catholicism just as God hate it also. It sends people to hell without them knowig it. The book of Revelation was not just refering to first century false treachers but those 7 churches in Revelation are metaphors of the churches from the early years of Christianity till today. It describes what Christian churches will go thru and how'd they would be treated by a false Christian church which is Catholicism - which God described as the seat of Satan.

Paul C. wrote : "Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?"

The reason why Catholic countries are corrupt is becasue they don't have both. One cannot exist without the other. They go hand in hand like two faces in a coin. Apostle James criticize those who say they have faith but have not works coz that is not the way it works.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits". And thru-out history, if you only examine it carefully they have bad fuits hidden carefully in the guise of "good works".

And by the way, I also hate liberal Protestantism and other false religions. I hate anything false and you would hate it too after you would see how many it would send to hell on Judgment Day. Worse if it would include you.

Spiderman2:
How can you be so sure that you understand God's opinion about the Catholic Church? Your interpretation of Revelation is rather unique. What is the linkage that makes you think that the Catholic church as a whole is being mentioned in that particular passage.? What Catholic Doctrine could lead to eternal damnation? I don't really need your answers, just think about what they might be..

I also want to point out to you that all the hate in your notes detracts from whatever opinion you are trying to make. Remember, the Christian ideal is to love and pray for your enemies (including those that don't agree with you). Maybe if you could explain your opinions without the bile you would be able to convert them to your point of view. As it is, your attacks on the Catholic Church very much resemble those of the most vigorous Athiests on this board. Is that what you are looking for?

While Catholicism may or may or not be, " a religion of the devil" as some posters have termed it; it is historically clear that Catholicism, for its own pecuniry purposes, invented and perfected the concept of Eurocentric/white supremacy as a religiously-sanctioned, socio-political construct to further their own Crusader-inspired, looting and plundering ends.

From it's Papal decree(s) denying the souls of indigenous peoples throughout the globe - thus justifying both the material as well as human raping of "discovered" lands leading to the 'justification of the European-bastardized, dehumanizing version of the slave trade, to it's ongoing blasphemy of inserting a man, read Pope, as God's only voice, to it's equally blasphemous assertion of being God's one and only true Church - whatever that means, to it's conquistidor adherents feeling it religiously (vs spiritually) incumbent upon them to first baptize the underage Aztec girls just prior to commiting the heinous act of raping them, and always, always enforcing their missionary, and self-serving selectively-referenced, bibliicaly-inspired 'show the other cheek' zeal with cannons and muskets (and later even bigger cannons, disease and even bigger guns), are just some of the historically documented evidences of the perversions and utmost blasphemies inherent in this so-called 'religion', more aptly characterized as the world's most lucrative business enterprise. L. Ron Hubbard, the founder of Scientology saw through their 'game' and decided to create his own 'religion' and to become unabashedly wealthy as well on the backs of the inherently gullible.

The true, just, non-Eurocentric and surely living God, will ultimately avenge this obscene blasphemy, the Church's current strategies of abusing economiclly disadvantaged, trusting immigrants for pecuniary purposes notwithstanding! Selah.

Translation to Judah1: Catholicism as it exists now has NOTHING to do with GOD, spirituality,TRUTH or goodness. It is a business akin to Girls gone Wild; or Boys. It confuses and exploits those souls seeking salvation, or any other trek to the Supreme. One who is truly Godly, prays for Catholics-in hopes that some light will come to them before eternal damnation is more than a construct.

Spiderman1 shows his true colors in his post about all the things he hates and by his judgment and damnation of others. He definitely is not a Christian with this attitude. He's just another hateful right-wing wacko neochristian.

Speed123: A convicted felon who served under Mahony is now serving mass to parishes in the Mexican state of Puebla. Your automatic, self-righteous, neocon attack on liberals and your dismissal of it as "bile and slander" has nothing to do with the facts. It does nothing more than display your brainless ignorance.

You assume I am anti-Catholic. I am not. I am anti -molesting little boys regardless of who does it or what institution or pointy-hat authority covers it up. This situation with Aguilar is especially egregious because of the hypocrisy of two Cardinals of the Church being involved while pretending to protect their flocks and spewing the Church's anti-gay pronouncements.

Correction: Aguilar hasn't been convicted yet. US law enforcement can't capture him because of weak Mexican laws and Mahony and Rivera's complicity.

Roy,

I am the furtherest thing from a neo con you can find - I am an adherent of the Catholic Worker Movement - an organization that feeds the poor and does work for social justice within the working class.

I can't stand the Rebublicans or the Democrats - both are war mongering, rights-infringing, all powerful government parties.

As for abuse, I am not justifying it - I am putting it in context. I don't know the details of LA; however, it sound like a complicated international issue that I am sure the authorities are working on so give it a rest.

PS - the Church is not monolithic - so dont accuse all Catholics of wrong doing for the acts of a few. OK?

As for Judah and others, reading too much Dan Brown? Great conspiracy theories and racist crap you spew. If you haven't noticed, there are Catholics of all colors and on all continents - it is a universal religion that values the and protects human dignity.

Against the death penalty, against abortion, against the IRAQ WAR etc.

You bigots on here really should get a life and remember that you are just as bad as anti-semities by spewing a Catholic version of the "Protocols of Zion" - i.e. Catholics are evil and control the world etc. Pathetic!

Hating the CHAIN which binds the person is not similar to hating the person.

" ... and I will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it. " (Revelation 2:17)

That white stone guides a person to every aspect of his life including not believing in evolution. The Catholic church believes in evolution and it is just one manifestation that it does not have a guiding light. Any religion which believes in evolution which states that man evolved from a lower form of animal is of the devil. Slowly but surely, it would lead you to hell thru false beliefs.

Spiderman2: So now your argument against catholicism is that it supports evolution, a concept you link to the devil? Why is it so impossible that God set in motion a set of processes including evolution to bring about his plans? Surely you recognize that the 7 days described in Genisis don't have to be actual 24 hour days, right?

Roy, King Wup, Judah1:
Describing Catholicism as a business like Girls gone wild or a Neocon enterprise is a little over the top don't you think. In fact, the Church has one mission: to help people get to heaven. The leaders of the church represent its universal congregation, with Bishops and Cardinals of every race and nationality. And its religious community (Priests / nuns/ brothers) dedicate their life to God, pledging lifelong poverty, chastity and obedience. Granted, a small percentage of them (

Judah
As a Catholic, I pray for you and those that have such hatred for the church that Christ built and the Holy Spirit guides. The core of our faith is nothing close to the venom you have written. The failings of man are not the failings of the Church, with Christ as its bride. Sin holds sway on man, including you. But the Church protects the Truth, gives all Christians an opportunity to practice their faith fully in the sacraments, and prays for all souls to go to heaven. If that is a bad thing, if that is evil, then the sun is black and the sky is red. Peace.

Paul C,

There's nothing wrong with believing that the earth is a million years old or more and that it evolved. What is wrong is when we consider humans and animals as relatives. Anybody who doesn't have the Holy Spirit in him can always believe that he came from an evolved animal. That's the main difference with Catholcism compared to true Christianity. The former is not guided by the Holy Spirit of God. The people running their church and those who believes it's doctrines don't possess the Holy Spirit. They are what the Bible descibed as the "natural man" -- no Holy Spirit to guide them.

"Except a man be born again , he cannot see the kingdom of God". That is what Catholicsim sorely lacks. And it shows in many of their doctrines and practices including their belief in evolution.

Spiderman2:
Catholics indeed believe that they are sealed with The Holy spirit when they are confirmed. What is your definition of "True Christianity"?
Do you understand Catholic Doctrine well enough to conclude that it is not a True Christian church? I suggest that you go to the local library and borrow a copy of the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church. It is the official teaching document of the church. Read it and see if you still come to the same conclusions. I extend this offer and this challenge to all the others on this board who are so quick to Condemn catholicism... I submit that if you are not willing to do at least that, then your condemnations lack the moral authority of at least being knowledgeable about what you condemn.

This is for Spiderman!

Scientific knowledge is not necessary for a person to live, know, and understand his own immediate landscape; but, for those of us who are interested in such knowledge, knowledge becomes something that is aesthetic, like art or poetry or music, something that is important, and that adds to the richness of the lives of those who seek it, but something that many people are not interested in, and reject.

Knowledge based on science is a higher aesthetic, like poetry, art and music, that some people "get" and that others do not, that some people appreciate, and that others do not, that some people pursue actively, and that others regard with sleepy-eyed apathy.

This explains how some people may navigate the utility of science as a reaction to their immediate and natural landscape, yet still do not understand or appreciate science, itself, but regard it with apathy, or even, hostility.

Spiderman is a frequent "ranter" on some of the other threads. Recently he informed the readers of this WaPo Faith Forum, that God hates all idiots and he is sending all the idiots to Hell and he will be glad when he gets to Heaven because he knows there won't be any idiots there.

(This is just the paraphrase of my memory).

So, I don't think he has much to say, of a serious nature, and there is not much point, either in directly responding to such comments, which in my opinion, are from a very troubled person.

Paul C,

That is exactly why I believe that Catholicism is of the devil because of it's Catechism. Only the Bible is the inspired word of God and only those who possess the Holy Spirit of God understands it. We get our doctrine directly from God and not from some man-made catechism.

Catholicism believes they can add to the Bible that is why they have catechism. That is where the impurity comes in.

On Judgment Day, a lot of people will be surprised. They have no clue that they worshiped the devil.

Spiderman2:
You think that Catholicism is evil because it publishes a document that explains its doctrine? If you don't understand what Catholics believe, how can you legitimately condemn those beliefs. Give that paradox a little thought..

Daniel in the Lion's Den,

God doesn't hate people of low IQ. But he calls atheists as fools or idiots and with that pronouncement, it means there are no idiots in Heaven. People who are mentally impaired are not fools in the sight of God if they believe in Him.

Atheists are idiots in the sight of God and I believe that.

Paul C,

I have read some of your Catechism and it bothers me. It even bothers some Catholics like the one below as stated in Wikipedia.

"Some Traditionalist Catholics argue that statements made in CCC conflict with past Catholic teachings on many topics, and that it is infected with Gnosticism, promotes the theory of evolution, exonerates the Jewish people and presents them as still in a covenantal relationship with God, favours indifferentism (the heresy that religions are equal), false ecumenism (cooperation with non-Catholic Christians), secular collaboration and compromise, homosexuality and internationalism."

Spiderman,
This is a much more positive line of thought. Identify what bothers you and why and we can have a very positive discussion. The catechism is online as well so you have full access. This is at the heart of the ecumenism movement started in Vatican 2: Find common ground and work to close the differences. In many cases, these are not issues of doctrine or faith but in presentation. And by the way, don't take everything you read in Wikipedia as gospel. Anyone can input into it.

Let me see if I have this right. The Catholic Church wants all illegals (all countries) to have all the rights due American Citizens. Most Mexicans can not afford to pay taxes or donnate to the Catholic churches, so we the legal tax payers foot the bill. I think not.

The Catholic Church with all its BILLIONS, must anty up and foot 100% of all cost of the illegals
they are supporting.

Now if I, John Q American tax payer, suggested a uprising against the states and federal government, Homeland would have my butt burried in a prision. So what if the Cardinal is a Cardinal. He is proposing to break the laws and his butt should be arrested.
Maybe our politicans will treat the Cardinal the same a they did the child abuses. Do Nothing and it will go away. Not this time.

Well, we all got a little off track here, didn't we? Let me address the citizenship of illegal aliens who have died for this country - which is what I thought this was about:

"Give me your tired, your poor
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free;
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me;
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

Written, as you may know, by Emma Lazarus, a Jew, and inscribed on our own Statue of Liberty.

May I remind you that the Puritans were illegal aliens? And the natives, woe unto them, let them in and befriended them and even helped them learn how to sustain themselves against famine.
And now we have evolved into the kind of people who decide who will and will not join us? Please.

Let them in. Give them citizenship first, then jobs. Then tax forms. It works. It will raise wages, because illegals won't be working for whatever crumbs are thrown their way. It will help America because immigrants with real jobs will pay taxes or go to jail, like the rest of us.