Moses, Galileo and Tests vs. Truth

It's possible that Moses and others in his culture used psychotropic compounds. It's also possible that Abraham's lineage had an organic, heritable, mental illness. It's all speculative, with no supporting evidence either way. Galileo might have been amused, or not. However, Galileo did real science, whereas Professor Shanon, regardless of his Ph.D., has obviously never understood what science is.

If you find this parable a psychedelic stuff, then get ready for a big surprise once your lungs begins to fail and stop pumping. Get ready for a BURNING rollercoaster ride.

Benny Shannon can't even understand this parable if there's no interpretations given. It just shows how low the caliber of his brain is. He's a psychologist but a very poor one. In short, he's a psycho.

The Parable of the Ten Virgins

[ There were ten virgins, who took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. Five
of them took their lamps and took no oil with them. The other five took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, " behold !, the bridegroom cometh; go out and meet him". And all the virgins arose and lighted their lamps. The five virgins who didn't have oil said unto the other five, give us of your oil for our lamps are gone out. But the other five answered, saying, "not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but rather you go to them that sell, and buy for yourselves". And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage and the door was shut. Afterwards, the other virgins also came, saying, "Lord, Lord, open to us". But He answered and said " I don't know you".]

Parables are fables representing something real in life. The virgins that the parable is talking about represents us while the bridegroom represents God.
Interpretations :

1. All the virgins slept.

All of us will die.

2. The bridegroom came and the virgins were all awakened.

In time, God will awake all of us from death.

3. The five foolish virgins asked for the oil to be shared but the other five, though they might be willing, can't share.

On Judgment Day, those who lived on earth for God cannot bail out the doomed ones even if they are dear to them. (Now is the time to bail out our loved ones while they are alive and urge them to direct their goals for God.)

4. When the ten virgins awoke, the five virgins who have no oil were told to buy oil for themselves and while they went to buy oil, the bridegroom came and the doors were shut from them.

After we're awakened from our death, those who are not ready to meet God would try to compensate by doing good things in their spirit form but it is not acceptable to God. (We're lucky to read this article in our physical self so whatever we can do for God now is very much acceptable to Him. Don't be a foolish virgin who didn't care until it's too late. After our death, there is no more chance. Thank God, we're still alive to serve Him.)

5. "Lord, Lord, open to us". But He answered and said, " I don't know you".

No amount of prayers from the doomed ones will be heard. (Now is the time to pray and not after we die.)

There are many questions that we can't answer while we are still alive, but it is most safe to believe on somebody who can multiply the fish and the bread, calm a storm, raise a dead, and even raise Himself alive rather than believe on our doubtful self who, for an infinite time, will not and cannot turn water into wine. If you believe that someday we can turn water to wine, read again because I'm sure you didn't understand.

Makes you wonder what that plant that burning bush really was?

Seriously, the ancient peoples' use of psychotropic drugs to reach (ahem) higher levels of consciousness is well documented. Moses, who was most likely trained in the Egyptian temples before his trip into the desert, had to have been aware of this practice. It makes perfect sense that he went up to the mountain by himself, ingested a little of whatever, went into a meditative trance, and communes with the Divine. It doesn't lessen the message one bit.

Considering the flat-out outrageousness of the stories of Moses, the fact that there is not one single piece of physical evidence to corroborate any of these stories, and the fact that these stories (and the rest of the Bible) have infected our science, our educational system, and our politics in a terribly negative way, I think there is every reason to search for alternative explanations, rather than to blindly accept these crazy stories as truth.

Spiderman2/Canyon aka Bible Thumper, Fortune Teller and Severely Brainwashed in that Old Time Religion,

Fools are those who have read only the bible. God cannot be proud of such lazy creations!!!!

With respect to the parable of the Ten Bridesmaids/Virgins (Matt 25: 1-12)

Many contemporary NT exegetes after a thorough review have concluded that this parable was a later addition to Matthew's gospel and was not said by the historic Jesus.

e.g. http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/164_The_Closed_Door

Gerd Lüdemann

Lüdemann [Jesus, 234] :

"The narrative is inauthentic since the semi-allegorical form derives from the needs of the community to find themselves in the parable. Furthermore the parable reflects the delay of the coming of the bridegroom Christ."

"The commentary in The Five Gospels (p. 347) notes that Luke's brief saying is reminiscent of the longer parable of the ten maidens in Matthew 25.

On the Matthean parable, the commentary observes:

This story does not have any of the earmarks of Jesus' authentic parables. it does not cut against the religious and social grain. Rather, it confirms common wisdom: those who are prepared succeed, those not prepared will fail. Consequently, it does not surprise or shock; there is no unexpected twist in the story; it comes out as one expects, given the opening statement that five of the maidens were wise and five foolish. The story lacks humor, exaggeration, and paradox: it is straightforward, unimaginative, and moralizing ..."

What are other Jews saying about the OT and Moses?

Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

Exhuming Galileo would would satisfy prurient curiosity.

Speculation about what Moses was snorting makes no more sense than speculating where the Tooth Fairy gets all those quarters (or whatever it's up to now) because there is as much evidence to support the Moses myth as there is to support the Tooth Fairy myth. An entire nation of nomads cannot move through a desert for 40 years without leaving behind a single shred of evidence of their presence--and the Sinai has been searched thoroughly, particularly during the Israeli occupation. One of the things I learned while living in Egypt for four years was the amazing quantity of government documents that survive from pharaonic times. Bureaucrats recorded everything. Everything, that is, except the presence of the Jews and Moses' role as an advisor to a Pharaoh.

Thank you, David Illig, for relieving me of the need to introduce some rational thought into these proceedings. Why, oh why, do even supposedly respectable media react to these types of nonsensical reports about some famous person or event, especially religious ones? Let some unknown, nonentity of a "scientist" seek his 15 minutes of public notice by publishing a piece of absolute horse manure, and media denizens eager for some reader-grabbing nonsense-de-jour are sure to play their assigned role by publishing the nonsense as a serious report. Then we can have days of "debates" on whether or not Moses ingested drugs, as if the original story had one ounce of substance.

What ever happed to the Gospel of Judas? To Jesus' family tomb? Has the media temporarily run out of flying saucer reports, or those wonderful first-hand accounts of some poor soul being awaken from sleep by bug-eyed, round-headed space denizens and wafted through the walls of his bedroom and into a space ship for an extensive physical exam? Or another scientific explanation of some phenomena reported in the Bible, like the real reason for the plagues of Egypt, or what planet conjunction explains the star of Bethlehem--without explaining how it could pinpoint the precise location of one little ol' manger without GPs, or how the wise men--after folliwng it for thousands of miles--could lose sight of it 6 miles from Bethlehem and have to drop in on King Herod in Jerusalem to ask the way?

Mr. Illig has it right. The only real story in all this drivel is whether any of it happened at all. So-called responsible media do themselves no good by taking the truth of some Biblical happening as a given, and then encrusting it with tons of additional fiction.

What's Spiderman2 been smoking?? We need to get in touch ........

The logic behind this is more flawed than a Wal-Mart diamond. Moses' account wasn't written until centuries after his journey supposedly happened. The Occam's Razor explanation of his story is that it existed to explain the ecological chaos resulting from a volcanic eruption in the Mediterranean. But why should that matter to truly faithful people? Isn't the message far more important than the messenger? I'm an atheist, but I appreciate the basic Christian values of love and compassion. Why must people work themselves up around the debatable history of the Bible when the fundamental aspects of Judeo-Christian philosophy are mostly respectable and admirable? My feeling is, there's absolutely nothing inherently wrong or damaging about faith, but don't hinder works of science in its name.

Spiderman 2,
Jesus did not, of course, intend his parables to be understood as actual literal fact. They were moral lessons, allegories to make a point. In other words, the ten virgins were symbols, not real virgins. So does your analogy with the story of Moses suggest that this story is also an allegory, not actual historical fact? The fundies will not like this much, since they believe that every word of the Bible, except the obvious parables perhaps, are literal, factual, historical truth. Of course, they have to twist the text quite a bit to reconcile the numerous internal contradictions in the Bible, but they are quite ingenious--as well as hilarious--in doing so.

Those of true faith do not even care, however it seems that all our efforts finacially and scientifically should be aimed towards helping those in need. Isn"t this what those men were trying to do. Moses and Galileo were both men of vision and were trying to help others.

Does it ever seem to some, that some of us are more interested in the details than the Big Picture?

As I have said before and I repeat:

The True, Living, Triune, Triumphant God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.

And it is important what you do and why you do it and what you know.

God is a Being of Pure Love.

God is not the egotistical maniac that some who call themselves 'christian' present Him to be.

God has a Plan and has had His Plan since before creation and His Plan will come to Fruition.

God is not a He, a She or an It, even tho God-Incarnate was a Man, a Jewish Man, Jesus of Nazareth.

O, by the way, the Old Testament Moses was real and so is the New Testament Moses.

Take care, be ready, see you [ALL OF HUMANITY] in the Kingdom [the new heavens and the new earth].

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

People have been ingesting psychotropic substances for millenia in order to achieve alternate states of consciousness.

Still a common practice in non-industrialized nations, we can find it wherever Shamanic practices are extant from Australia to Mesoamerica, and most locally among our own Native American practitioners.

The religious cults of Moses' time most likely used hallugenigenics to achieve ecstatic and trance states - e.g. the Eleusinian and Orphic mystery cults to name two.

Reading in Stanislav Grof's classic research work with terminal cancer patients and LSD in the 1970's {The Ultimate Journey} he reports that there are loosely 4 different schools of thought on the validity of 'spiritual' states and drug ingestion.

These range from Indian meditators of the Vedantic school who completely disavow authentic mystical experiences under the influence drugs to the aforementioned shamanic tribal figures that rely heavily on psychotropics in order to make their journeys to other realities (trips that often have a practical/functional basis related to events in our material reality).

Grof's work indicates that setting, motivation and attitude are all important in deriving meaningful experiences from drug-induced states of alternativie consciousness - interestingly, many and varied (psychic) archetypal and mythic motifs show up experientally among subjects in their follow-up interviews (drug-induced states can last from 4 to 12 hours)

Generally the subjects had no foreknowledge or familiarity with these transcultural mythical symbols that are so clearly defined in Jung's work on archetypes. For example, an LSD or DMT subject might report seeing mandala and deity figures from Tibetan mythology {found in the Tibetan Book of the Dead} without prior exposure to these symbols. I can personally attest to the fact that these experiences do happen as reported.

An interesting and important side effect to the research was the frequent alleviation of the profound pain often experienced by cancer patients in an advanced state of the disease. Their attitude toward death and dying after 2 or 3 sessions was greatly enhanced.

Aldous Huxley {The Doors of Perception} was such a believer in the validity of alternative states mediated by psychedelics that he dropped LSD on his deathbead. I'd be surprised if Timothy Leary didn't do the same......

Shortly after this research LSD (the brainchild of Albert Hoffman) was very unfortunately illegalized throughout the USA in all research venues (due to typical media hysteria leveled at all things unknown and/or vaguely related to drugs and the devil, no doubt. We can see a similar mindset today as regards stem cell research).

Since then Grof has developed a system called Holotropic Breath Work that is simply a breathing method that allows the user to achieve alternate holotropic states.

Robert Monroe (Monroe Institute) is a contemporary research figure in controlled out-of-body experiences, and has an institute in Virginia that teaches similar techniques for achieving alternate states of consciousness {see Journeys Out of the Body, Far Journeys, and Ultimate Journey}. He was of course convinced through his many OBE journeys that consciousness survives biological death.

The seer of Virginia Beach, Edgar Cayce is another noted figure in this regard, having given much valid & verified information on many subjects over the course of many thousands of drug-free trance-induced 'readings'. See the Edgar Cayce Institute in Virginia Beach, VA. or on the web.

My only belief regarding religion and religious/mystical practice is the belief that knowing as much as possible about our spiritual make-up is a worthy goal. This information should come from all pertinent sources, including science (see thanatology and consciousness research).

Biological death has never been disputed!! What happens to human consciousness afterward (if anything) is the big question. And as we're all facing imminent death, at the end of the day what could be more important to the individual??

Very pitiful. I don't know what you've been doing with your lives to not get the mercy of God. I won't elaborate more coz it's useless.

What a pity. Waaaahhhhhaaaaat a pity. Burning humans like barbecues, forever. What a pity.

Upto now and till forever, nobody can't explain what's the logic behind DNA. You guys should solve it first coz until you don't get an answer, there's still that doubt of who's behind that speck of intelligence.

That intelligence says you're gonna burn. What a pity. That big bang source says that you're gonna burn. What a pity.

"Unless those days are shortened, no flesh would survive". With the invention of nukes and germ weapons, the prophecy is just waiting to happen. The prophecy is being fulfilled and the prophecy of fools becoming many is also fulfilled. Hell is just around the corner after they're nuked and it's all in the prophecy. What a pity. Waahhhaatt a pity.

They consider themselves intelligent but their eyes are still blinded and is not able to comprehend. What a pity. Ohh , what a pity.

"Lord, Lord , open to us". And it won't open coz they never listened while there was a grace period. What a pity. Oh, what a pity.

I'm against abortion but the thought that you guys would burn forever makes me think that it would have been better if you were aborted and be spared from hell than growing up like fools without understanding, crying forever in horrible pain.

Oh, what a pity. But the scripture must be fulfilled and you guys should not believe so there would be people who would be burned otherwise the prophecy would make no sense. Oh, what a pity.

Jews till now celebrate the "passover" because they've passed it from generation to generation what really happened during Moses time when they were spared by the death angel while all the first born of Egypt perished. What a pity. Oh what a pity. The event is in their history and they still celebrate it till today. Oh what a pity coz despite the many facts, they won't believe so the scripture would be fulfilled. Oh what a pity.

I can hear the loudest cries of pain as they burn in hell. The God of Mercy has transformed to the God of Wrath and there's no mercy. Nooooo Mercy. Oh what a pity. Ahh , it really breaks my heart. Honestly.

Spiderman2 you're neither a kind nor intelligent person. You don't possess an ounce of compassion. Nobody in their right mind would want to accompany you on the journey coming up in your future. Hiding your own deficiencies and your self-loathing in a cloud of biblical nonsense is just not an effective disguise.

Trumpeting the gravely mistaken notion that you are saved while others are damned is your biggest mistake. You think you see other futures when you should be looking toward your own. Your own mind is your biggest enemy. What an arrogant fool.....

Spidey, thrown any pipe bombs this week? Mailed out any anthrax? Cut anybody's head off? Forced anyone to take cyanide? Burned a vault full of children?

You are one of the sickest mothers I've ever seen on these boards. It isn't your god's wrath that you're talking about, it's your wrath you keep spewing here.

After reading your bible this is how you talk to people, this is what you say will happen to most of humanity? Your bible doesn't hold any hope for you, but a good course of thorazine might.

Whoever said Moses was doing hallucinogens is trying to concretize a great myth of liberation.
Ultimately, what would it have mattered if Moses took hallucinogens?

In High School, after reading Huxley's "Doors of Perception" and Wolfe's "Electric Kool Aid Acid Test", I wanted to try hallucinogens. I was too shy and a big studious, geek to approach "those" kinds of people. I did try hallucinogens in college. They do give you to new perspective on existence. I did see people who hadn't taken a lot of time to contemplate existence have a bad time with drugs like this, not addiction, but phychologically a bad time. I don't think these drugs are necessary to achieve this type of perspective.

The other thing this experience brought me is to places and become friends with people I would have only seen on TV or read in books. I realized most drug addicts weren't evil, but driven to do evil for physically addictive drugs. I payed for the experience as I was jumped in the middle of the night one time.

Despite this, these experiences made me comfortable with people who weren't brought up middle-class. Far away from those experiences
and years later, it made it possible for me to see my future wife for the beautiful person she is. It keeps me in touch with the places we tend to ignore in the middle class. Too many of us aspire for the material wealth of the upper class. In my middle-class neighborhood, I have watched the fake wealth parade of gadgets we don't need. Meanwhile, the brothers and sisters of our true roots, suffer the misfortune of having their wages stolen so the powerful can have a third mansion or a Yacht with helicopter. They'll take as much as they can out of our paycheck as long as we are quiet.

I think the pressure that our society presses upon us for material gain makes all
get sucked up by a giant feel-good industry, both legal and illegal. Our legalization of some drugs like alcohol and those sometimes
easily perscribed by doctors makes a farse of our drug war when minor drugs like marajuana are illegal.

Spiderman2/Canyon aka Bible Thumper, Fortune Teller and Severely Brainwashed in that Old Time Religion,

Fools are those who have read only the bible. God cannot be proud of such lazy creations!!!!

Pope John Paul II's remains should be exhumed and his DNA examined to see if the cause of his moral blindness can be determined.

TO SPIDERMAN2:

I have met God and I can tell you for a fact that you don't know anything about God unless that is, if you think that Jesus is God-Incarnate and if you do, then the only thing that you seem to know about God is His Name.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

OT Moses was a myth. NT Moses is the fantasy of one hallucinating T. Baum.

TO CONCERNED THE CHRISTIAN NOW LIBERATED:

Time will tell.

Take care, be ready, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom [the new heavens and the new earth].

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I don't want to go to this ugly heaven of yours, what a horrible place it would be, an eternity of sycophancy shared with the likes of Spidermean, Jerry Falwell, and Pat Robertson, humping some angry god's leg. No swearing in heaven? No marijuna?

I'm going with the contra-positive of Pascal's Argument. If I don't believe, and it's not true, then nothing happens. If I don't believe, and it is true, then I won't have to go to that awful heaven all these believers seem to want.

Hey, the devil isn't all powerful like the main god is he? He's going to need a bureaucracy to manage things, I'll just get a good job managing the torture of others, spend my days at the beach.

I'm a bit disappointed by the backhand swipe at science. "Scientific certainty," as you use the expression here, is a straw man. The whole point of science is that its conclusions are corrigible in light of further research and better evidence. How agnosticism about the conclusions of scientific investigation could be a better approach to making sense the natural world is beyond me. It looks like a euphemism for ignorance and indifference. As for Galileo's privacy, one of his fingers is on display in a museum a few blocks away from his tomb, in what I take to be an imitation of the display of saints' relics. It may be silly for scientists (or any other participants in the modern cult of celebrity) to venerate/investigate the remains of their heroes, but they didn't come up with the idea on their own.

Max - good post. What you didn't reveal was the poignant fact that its Galileo's middle finger on display and it's pointed at the Vatican. That makes all the difference.

Spiderman 2,
You say it would have been better for those who are going to burn in hell to have been aborted and never to have grown up. I'm curious. Since you are against abortion, I assume that you must think that the unborn are human beings with souls. What happens to these souls? Do they get a free pass to heaven, with no need to earn it either through their deeds or through their faith? Or do they go to hell since, as fetuses, they never could have the saving faith or perform the saving good deeds? If the latter, then the aborted people you write of would go to hell either way. If the former, then abortion should be a sacrament since it ushers these little unborns into everlasting happiness.

When you die and if you beat the odds and make it to heaven, are you the same age for eternity as when you died? If that's the case, maybe I'd better die now while I can still get it up.
Does everybody speak english?

Do we still get to have sex?

What if I get into an argument with someone and it goes too far, somebody gets a bloody nose. Does one of us lose our getouttajailfree card and leave for hell, both of us?

What if I get bored in heaven and want to try out hell for a while, if I don't like it there do I get to come back?

Will I still be white/black/brown/yellow/red, will I keep the same race I had when I was alive? Can I try the others for a while?

Can I get a Shelby Mustang?

What if I make it but my wife doesn't, can I try out a different wife? Are threesomes allowed?
They won't have unisex bathrooms will they? I mean, I'm kind of shy about that.

If I'm reading the delusionists right, dinosaurs were on noah's ark. Will I get to ride an apatosaur? a triceratops? Will they be able to speak? English?

How about my favorite musical groups, I kind of like Tom Petty for example. We all know he's not going to make it to heaven, will I be able to take my Tom Petty CDs with me when I go there?

Who would want to spend all of eternity with an entity who would commit a subset of his creatures to eternal agony, anyway? What a loser.

Dumb - you can have all of those things and more but the only problem is, you don't remember any of it when you come back to Mother Earth. If you can't remember your dreams in vivid detail how can you expect to remember your afterlife experiences?? Same realm and same self-created body......nothing last forever.

I think that Spiderman2 is actually Venom.

Spidey-freak,

So your "loving God" enjoys barbecuing humans? Nice. Why do you pray to the devil?

Count me out of your freakish, ghoulish, apocalyptic religious cult, and enjoy your miserable life praying to your killer god. Whaaaat a pity.

Why should I bother going anywhere if I can't remember it? Isn't there a loophole somewhere that I can use, can I get a heaven lawyer?

wait a minute, if I read what you're saying, there are going to be two afterlifes? afterlives ... So I get to tool around heaven in my Shelby mustang with two hot babes and my favorite Tom Petty cd blasting on the bose speakers ... then I forget it all and have to come back to Mother Earth in the same body I left it with?

Do I get a Shelby then? How about the apatosaur rides and unisex bathrooms, do they start over?

moses on mount sinai.
the book age and reason age and the rennisance of human thought started not at the time or age of writing papers or age of scientific or industrial revolution but started way back when moses recived the divine revelation (tora).

people who they are interesting in science or rationalism or the truth in general instead of digging in the relics they need to use their first common sense and read the last divine revelation to mankind (QURAN).

again and again and again there is creator for this universe and is very unscientific very unrational to search in this life without paying any attention to the book of the creator of heavens and earths.

people who born and breast fed in jeudochristianity whether they call them selfs belivers or none realy need to come out of the materialistic mentaltiy ,belivers glorify a myth and idol called son of god the savoir of mankind!!! ,while none belivers who they calleing themselfs scientists and rationalists are digging in the relics and the scientific lab trying to find the truth about god??????????????????????? same mentality of those who stuck their face and nose in the behinde of the golden calf while the honorable messenger of the creator god moses on mount sinai reciving the tora.

Mo, Mo, Mo,

Moses on hallucinogens?? Why of course assuming he existed. There is some doubt.

Mohammend on hallucinogens?? There is no doubt about it. That is why Islam is known as "hallucinogen heaven"!!!!

The passover is a Jewish feast which commemorates the time when the Angel of Death "pass over" the children of Israel but smote all the first born of Egypt. It all happened during the time of Moses.

It is being celebrated yearly for the world to know that the event took place. Anybody who thinks it's a myth or Moses took psychedelic drug is really out of his mind. But that's not a surprise coz atheists/liberal people are truly fools.

To get rid of these fools, a second passover is in the offing. A few years from now, Israel would again be under captivity by a group of countries. When that happens, remember this warning. The "Angel of Death" would again fly over the world and would take all unbelievers with it.

I enclosed it in apostrophe coz it's not a literal "Angel of Death". If the original Angel of Death took only the first born, the coming "Angel of Death" would took whole families.

And like the first passover, it's not a myth and it's coming soon. Many of the people in this board will soon experience it and unless you repent, there is no way out.

You'd soon hear that "door" shut forever. It's a scary thing but it happened and will happen again. What a pity coz it's so simple to believe but like the Pharoah, all the preceding 9 plagues were not enough to soften their hearts.

It's not God's fault anymore. You're given all the warnings but you just choose to remain dumb

Thank you, David Illig, for relieving me of the need to introduce some rational thought into these proceedings. Why, oh why, do even supposedly respectable media react to these types of nonsensical reports about some famous person or event, especially religious ones? Let some unknown, nonentity of a "scientist" seek his 15 minutes of public notice by publishing a piece of absolute horse manure, and media denizens eager for some reader-grabbing nonsense-de-jour are sure to play their assigned role by publishing the nonsense as a serious report. Then we can have days of "debates" on whether or not Moses ingested drugs, as if the original story had one ounce of substance.

What ever happed to the Gospel of Judas? To Jesus' family tomb? Has the media temporarily run out of flying saucer reports, or those wonderful first-hand accounts of some poor soul being awaken from sleep by bug-eyed, round-headed space denizens and wafted through the walls of his bedroom and into a space ship for an extensive physical exam? Or another scientific explanation of some phenomena reported in the Bible, like the real reason for the plagues of Egypt, or what planet conjunction explains the star of Bethlehem--without explaining how it could pinpoint the precise location of one little ol' manger without GPs, or how the wise men could lose sight of it 6 miles from Bethlehem and have to drop in on King Herod in Jerusalem to ask the way?

Mr. Illig has it right. The only real story in all this drivel is whether any of it happened at all. So-called responsible media do themselves no good by taking the truth of some Biblical happening as a given, and then encrusting it with tons of additional fiction.

Yeah, Moses is a myth. And so is your brain. I can't see it therefore it's a myth.

In case no one else has figured this out yet, Spiderman is an atheist, posing as a Christian to make us look bad.

anonymous, have you heard of the word sarcasm? I was just quoting geogiason's thoughts that moses is a myth. If you claim yourself as a Christian then you don't know what Christian means. Atheists here would really have good reasons that some "christians" are idiots. That is if the "Christians" they see are like you.

Myth doesn't mean something that isn't true, it's a methaphorical story that uses symbolic images and narratives describing the possibilities of human experience in a given culture at a given time.

The passover is a Jewish feast which commemorates the time when the Angel of Death "pass over" the children of Israel but smote all the first born of Egypt. It all happened during the time of Moses.

It is being celebrated yearly for the world to know that the event took place. Anybody who thinks it's a myth or Moses took psychedelic drug is really out of his mind. But that's not a surprise coz atheists/liberal people are truly fools.

To get rid of these fools, a second passover is in the offing. A few years from now, Israel would again be under captivity by a group of countries. When that happens, remember this warning. The "Angel of Death" would again fly over the world and would take all unbelievers with it.

I enclosed it in apostrophe coz it's not a literal "Angel of Death". If the original Angel of Death took only the first born, the coming "Angel of Death" would took whole families.

And like the first passover, it's not a myth and it's coming soon. Many of the people in this board will soon experience it and unless you repent, there is no way out.

You'd soon hear that "door" shut forever. It's a scary thing but it happened and will happen again. What a pity coz it's so simple to believe but like the Pharoah, all the preceding 9 plagues were not enough to soften their hearts.

It's not God's fault anymore. You're given all the warnings but you just choose to remain dumb

Myths always contain truths for a given culture at that given time.

Spiderman2/Canyon aka Bible Thumper, Fortune Teller and Severely Brainwashed in that Old Time Religion,

Fools are those who have read only the bible. God cannot be proud of such lazy creations!!!!

Beware of his avenging "pretty wingie thingie!!!!

You followers of the Cult of Abraham never CEASE TO AMAZE!!!
You create a Jealous God, Omnipotent and Omniscient, The One God of All, then immediately limit it, and create an Usurper that challenges it for dominance. Actually, from what you claim, the Usurper actually Kicks God's Arse and claims rule over this universe, making it into NOTGOD, or EVIL.
Your God is a Wussy. I can see how it is created in Your image. You refuse responsibility for Your actions. You blame the Usurper you conveniently created for this instead of recognizing you are too stupid, lazy and trite to do the right thing THAT YOU WERE BORN KNOWING YOU SHOULD DO...and the You want the weak little god you created to FORGIVE YOUR LAZY ARSES.
If Your god gives you Victory in War, he obviously gives Your enemies an Evil time..but wait, all of the evil is the Usurpers realm...so the Devil actually gave you the Victory by giving more death and destruction, evil, to your enemies.
This is completely illogical. Either your god is all powerful and created everything, or he isn't and shares power with the evil you created to CYA.
You would think after 3500 yrs you guys could polish this spiel up a little better.

You gotta be on psychedelic drugs to believe this Benny Shanon fellow and so enjoy controversy or give it any validity to even print or repeat it! The hatred the world has for God is astounding.

Yonkers, New York
09 March 2008

Right off the bat, I say, "Yes, Claire Hoffman, exhuming the well-established tales about Moses and Galileo Galilei does not only "seem" futile, but are indeed futile.

I say "well established" because neither the Jewish people nor the Christians are likely to change their minds about Moses and the "burning bush", and about Moses and those two tablets of God Jehovah's Ten Commandments.

The so-called scientific study conducted by Benny Shannon, professor of cognitive psychology at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, allegedly finding evidence that Moses's life story may have been "inspired by psychedelic experience," cannot and willl not prevail over what the Jewish people and Christians have for centuries accepted as the final and unalterable truth.

And telll me what practical purpose is served by exhuming poor Galileo Galilei's remains other than to "inspect his DNA so that we can know every last detail of his existence with scientific certainty?"

Would you know whether or not Galileo was a legitimate child or not? Would you know whether or not his mother was a prostitute? Would you know whether or not his father was a drunkard? Would know whether or not his brother was a gambler? Would you know whether or not he hated Pope Urban (his former "friend") after Pope Urban left him to the mercies of the brutal Inquisition?

Would you get answers with "scientific certainty" by simply subjecting poor Galileo's remains--now probably reduced to stellar or cosmic dust--even if the scientific examination is done preferably by a well-known scientific entity like CSI Miami?

I don't think so.

In both instances, Moses and Galileo Galilei, I am certain--absolutely certaint--that the exhumations will be absolute exercises in futility.

Mariano Patalinjug
MarPatalinjug@aol.com

Both of these stories are absolutely meaningless.

The reason why true Christians would stay and would someday rule this earth is because we don't invent our doctrines. We just echo the voice of the Creator and the voice says that unless unbelievers repent, they would perish.
That's been proven again and again and if you look at the history of England, their world power status fell the moment they start rejecting the Bible. Along with evolution, came WW1 and WW2. If not for Christain America, they would have all rot by now.

But just the same they would all rot soon along with all unbelievers around the world and here in America. God bless America but that excludes the unbelievers..

***

Ender wrote : "You refuse responsibility for Your actions".

Ender, the reason why unbelievers will be doomed is because they would be paying for their actions. Repentance simply means acknowleging our mistake and make a u-turn. Unbelievers think they wouldn't pay for their mistake and continue with the mistake and therefore suffer the consequence.

The writings and tomb of Galileo are on display and his theories accepted without dispute today by all but a few on the religious right. Moses is a different animal entirely. Egypt, whose dynasties were quite adept at keeping records, records no such traumatic events. Moses then might have been no more than a morality play among Hebrew nomads. The waters being parted akin to Minnesota's many lakes being the footprints of Babe the Blue Ox. The secret might be contained in the Old Testament itself, considering every king, potentate or despot in antiquity that ever harmed a Jewish fingernail or insulted their deity was plainly recorded. Why no mention of the name of the very pharaoh that suffered such great humiliation and defeat at the hands of their greatest prophet and deity? Interesting. It would be like writing the history of the holocaust without mentioning Hitler.

George,

Just for the sake of argument, many people don't know who was the president of the U.S. during WW2 or WW1. They simply refer to them as the U.S. President but don't mention their names.

It's a shalow reasoning to make conclusions and erase history like saying WW1 & WW2 did not exist just because a name was not mentioned.

Considering that you know the U.S Presidents' name, do you know Japan's head of state then? Japan made more havoc to the Americans than Hitlet did.

If you do know, how about their top general? Or their general who most have likely invaded America if their coded messages were not intercepted and decoded?

All of the main characters in the Old Testament were products of incestous relationships. Throw in the effects of poor food, dirty water and heat in a harsh desert environment with mental illnesses and you're sure to end up with a bunch of lunatics.

Paul wrote that people shouldn't believe in Jewish fables. Paul was a Jew. So why should anyone believe in his fables?

Moses, a sick phuk like Hitler, committed many genocides following the commandments of his God:

31:1 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Avenge the people of Israel on the Midianites. Afterward you shall be gathered to your people.” 3 So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the Lord's vengeance on Midian. 4 You shall send a thousand from each of the tribes of Israel to the war.” 5 So there were provided, out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand from each tribe, twelve thousand armed for war. 6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand from each tribe, together with Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, with the vessels of the sanctuary and the trumpets for the alarm in his hand. 7 They warred against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every male. 8 They killed the kings of Midian with the rest of their slain, Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba, the five kings of Midian. And they also killed Balaam the son of Beor with the sword. 9 And the people of Israel took captive the women of Midian and their little ones, and they took as plunder all their cattle, their flocks, and all their goods. 10 All their cities in the places where they lived, and all their encampments, they burned with fire, 11 and took all the spoil and all the plunder, both of man and of beast. 12 Then they brought the captives and the plunder and the spoil to Moses, and to Eleazar the priest, and to the congregation of the people of Israel, at the camp on the plains of Moab by the Jordan at Jericho.

13 Moses and Eleazar the priest and all the chiefs of the congregation went to meet them outside the camp. 14 And Moses was angry with the officers of the army, the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, who had come from service in the war. 15 Moses said to them, “Have you let all the women live? 16 Behold, these, on Balaam's advice, caused the people of Israel to act treacherously against the Lord in the incident of Peor, and so the plague came among the congregation of the Lord. 17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. 18 But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves. 19 Encamp outside the camp seven days. Whoever of you has killed any person and whoever has touched any slain, purify yourselves and your captives on the third day and on the seventh day. 20 You shall purify every garment, every article of skin, all work of goats' hair, and every article of wood.”

21 Then Eleazar the priest said to the men in the army who had gone to battle: “This is the statute of the law that the Lord has commanded Moses: 22 only the gold, the silver, the bronze, the iron, the tin, and the lead, 23 everything that can stand the fire, you shall pass through the fire, and it shall be clean. Nevertheless, it shall also be purified with the water for impurity. And whatever cannot stand the fire, you shall pass through the water. 24 You must wash your clothes on the seventh day, and you shall be clean. And afterward you may come into the camp.”

25 The Lord said to Moses, 26 “Take the count of the plunder that was taken, both of man and of beast, you and Eleazar the priest and the heads of the fathers' houses of the congregation, 27 and divide the plunder into two parts between the warriors who went out to battle and all the congregation. 28 And levy for the Lord a tribute from the men of war who went out to battle, one out of five hundred, of the people and of the oxen and of the donkeys and of the flocks. 29 Take it from their half and give it to Eleazar the priest as a contribution to the Lord. 30 And from the people of Israel's half you shall take one drawn out of every fifty, of the people, of the oxen, of the donkeys, and of the flocks, of all the cattle, and give them to the Levites who keep guard over the tabernacle of the Lord.” 31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses.

32 Now the plunder remaining of the spoil that the army took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys, 35 and 32,000 persons in all, women who had not known man by lying with him. 36 And the half, the portion of those who had gone out in the army, numbered 337,500 sheep, 37 and the Lord's tribute of sheep was 675. 38 The cattle were 36,000, of which the Lord's tribute was 72. 39 The donkeys were 30,500, of which the Lord's tribute was 61. 40 The persons were 16,000, of which the Lord's tribute was 32 persons. 41 And Moses gave the tribute, which was the contribution for the Lord, to Eleazar the priest, as the Lord commanded Moses.

42 From the people of Israel's half, which Moses separated from that of the men who had served in the army— 43 now the congregation's half was 337,500 sheep, 44 36,000 cattle, 45 and 30,500 donkeys, 46 and 16,000 persons— 47 from the people of Israel's half Moses took one of every 50, both of persons and of beasts, and gave them to the Levites who kept guard over the tabernacle of the Lord, as the Lord commanded Moses.

48 Then the officers who were over the thousands of the army, the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, came near to Moses 49 and said to Moses, “Your servants have counted the men of war who are under our command, and there is not a man missing from us. 50 And we have brought the Lord's offering, what each man found, articles of gold, armlets and bracelets, signet rings, earrings, and beads, to make atonement for ourselves before the Lord.” 51 And Moses and Eleazar the priest received from them the gold, all crafted articles. 52 And all the gold of the contribution that they presented to the Lord, from the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, was 16,750 shekels. [1] 53 (The men in the army had each taken plunder for himself.) 54 And Moses and Eleazar the priest received the gold from the commanders of thousands and of hundreds, and brought it into the tent of meeting, as a memorial for the people of Israel before the Lord.

Moses, a sick phuk like Hitler, committed many genocides following the commandments of his God:

31:1 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Avenge the people of Israel on the Midianites. Afterward you shall be gathered to your people.” 3 So Moses spoke to the people, saying, “Arm men from among you for the war, that they may go against Midian to execute the Lord's vengeance on Midian. 4 You shall send a thousand from each of the tribes of Israel to the war.” 5 So there were provided, out of the thousands of Israel, a thousand from each tribe, twelve thousand armed for war. 6 And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand from each tribe, together with Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, with the vessels of the sanctuary and the trumpets for the alarm in his hand. 7 They warred against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every male. 8 They killed the kings of Midian with the rest of their slain, Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba, the five kings of Midian. And they also killed Balaam the son of Beor with the sword. 9 And the people of Israel took captive the women of Midian and their little ones, and they took as plunder all their cattle, their flocks, and all their goods. 10 All their cities in the places where they lived, and all their encampments, they burned with fire, 11 and took all the spoil and all the plunder, both of man and of beast. 12 Then they brought the captives and the plunder and the spoil to Moses, and to Eleazar the priest, and to the congregation of the people of Israel, at the camp on the plains of Moab by the Jordan at Jericho.

13 Moses and Eleazar the priest and all the chiefs of the congregation went to meet them outside the camp. 14 And Moses was angry with the officers of the army, the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, who had come from service in the war. 15 Moses said to them, “Have you let all the women live? 16 Behold, these, on Balaam's advice, caused the people of Israel to act treacherously against the Lord in the incident of Peor, and so the plague came among the congregation of the Lord. 17 Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. 18 But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him keep alive for yourselves. 19 Encamp outside the camp seven days. Whoever of you has killed any person and whoever has touched any slain, purify yourselves and your captives on the third day and on the seventh day. 20 You shall purify every garment, every article of skin, all work of goats' hair, and every article of wood.”

21 Then Eleazar the priest said to the men in the army who had gone to battle: “This is the statute of the law that the Lord has commanded Moses: 22 only the gold, the silver, the bronze, the iron, the tin, and the lead, 23 everything that can stand the fire, you shall pass through the fire, and it shall be clean. Nevertheless, it shall also be purified with the water for impurity. And whatever cannot stand the fire, you shall pass through the water. 24 You must wash your clothes on the seventh day, and you shall be clean. And afterward you may come into the camp.”

25 The Lord said to Moses, 26 “Take the count of the plunder that was taken, both of man and of beast, you and Eleazar the priest and the heads of the fathers' houses of the congregation, 27 and divide the plunder into two parts between the warriors who went out to battle and all the congregation. 28 And levy for the Lord a tribute from the men of war who went out to battle, one out of five hundred, of the people and of the oxen and of the donkeys and of the flocks. 29 Take it from their half and give it to Eleazar the priest as a contribution to the Lord. 30 And from the people of Israel's half you shall take one drawn out of every fifty, of the people, of the oxen, of the donkeys, and of the flocks, of all the cattle, and give them to the Levites who keep guard over the tabernacle of the Lord.” 31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses.

32 Now the plunder remaining of the spoil that the army took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys, 35 and 32,000 persons in all, women who had not known man by lying with him. 36 And the half, the portion of those who had gone out in the army, numbered 337,500 sheep, 37 and the Lord's tribute of sheep was 675. 38 The cattle were 36,000, of which the Lord's tribute was 72. 39 The donkeys were 30,500, of which the Lord's tribute was 61. 40 The persons were 16,000, of which the Lord's tribute was 32 persons. 41 And Moses gave the tribute, which was the contribution for the Lord, to Eleazar the priest, as the Lord commanded Moses.

42 From the people of Israel's half, which Moses separated from that of the men who had served in the army— 43 now the congregation's half was 337,500 sheep, 44 36,000 cattle, 45 and 30,500 donkeys, 46 and 16,000 persons— 47 from the people of Israel's half Moses took one of every 50, both of persons and of beasts, and gave them to the Levites who kept guard over the tabernacle of the Lord, as the Lord commanded Moses.

48 Then the officers who were over the thousands of the army, the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, came near to Moses 49 and said to Moses, “Your servants have counted the men of war who are under our command, and there is not a man missing from us. 50 And we have brought the Lord's offering, what each man found, articles of gold, armlets and bracelets, signet rings, earrings, and beads, to make atonement for ourselves before the Lord.” 51 And Moses and Eleazar the priest received from them the gold, all crafted articles. 52 And all the gold of the contribution that they presented to the Lord, from the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, was 16,750 shekels. [1] 53 (The men in the army had each taken plunder for himself.) 54 And Moses and Eleazar the priest received the gold from the commanders of thousands and of hundreds, and brought it into the tent of meeting, as a memorial for the people of Israel before the Lord.

Well there is a Burning Bush, also called dittany.
The flowers are white or pink, the leaves give off an aromatic scent, grows in the desert and can, under certain curcumstances, flame up quickly. But Moses being a man of the desert would surely know of this plant.

The 10 Commandments-
Code of Hammurabi...one of the oldest and best preserved of the laws found. Code of Hammurabi includes laws that the Christains call the 10 commandments.. These laws are from Babylon. The Hebrews had been in Babylon...

I know that many of the bible stories are from myths much older then the old testament. Noah and the Ark comes from the Babylonian myth of Gilgamesh.

terra

Spiderman2/Canyon aka Bible Thumper, Fortune Teller and Severely Brainwashed in that Old Time Religion,

You suffer from the Three B syndrome!!! Seek some help!!

If the Bible wasn't written none of this would be an issue. Yet so many who get irate about the book can't just choose to ignore it. There are alot a books on the shelves that talk about Ghosts, and whatever is beyond our reasoning. But the Bible takes a beating for some reason. Why even dignify the Bible if you are so convinced you're right an those who believe are wrong?

If Moses was a doper than so was Abraham, Jacob, Daniel, all the Prophets, Jesus, Paul,....just indict the whole Bible and save yourself some time. Why pick on Moses? Everyone should be fair game to those who can't explain the book on an intellectual level. Yes the Bible is just a bunch of dopers who heard voices, saw visions, worked miracles yadda.. yadda.. But to go as far as DNA and whatever is a bit extreme for the nay sayer who wants to prove otherwise. Somewhere in acheological land someone is missing their idiot. Boy as much as the intellectuals tout their IQ we have a new winner in the ignorant category.

And why would the Bible say that the earth will be filled with fools (and this board just proves it) if it's not going to happen?

Jesus said that you can't give pearls to the pigs or fools coz they would only trample on it.

Why do I get accurate prophecies from the book like your imminent destruction? The day of reckoning can even be counted by my fingers already.

The book is more than a pearl for wise people but try to give pearls to a foolish person and very likely he would eat it right in your face if you lace it with sugar.

The Catholic church tried to burn Bibles before but the book keep on increasing. At the same time, their religion almost perished with the fall of the Holy Roman Empire.

You guys will pass away like fiction or magic - all gone in a blink of an eye but the word of God would stay forever.

A few years from now, you would just be a myth yourself and the title of the myth would be, BURNED PIGS.

Some future generation kids would ask, "Dad, was there really a Europe or is it just fiction? How come the place is just a pile of dust? Is it part of Arabia coz they sure look the same ? What about New York? Is it also part of Arabia coz they sure look the same also? And China? And Russia? And the whole of Arab States?

"Yes son and it's there in the Bible even before it happened. Pigs and fire always go together so take care of yourself and don't be a fool like them or you'd perish".

The Age of Reason suffers from Alzheimer's.

Canyon, Canyon, Canyon,

It is obvious you are possessed by an ugly, wingie thingie aka a demon of the demented. See an exorcist ASAP.

The Exploration of outer space begins at the epidermis and the invers is true to explore innerspace.

So where you find your relationship in this vast univers is up to you and how you relate to a higher power. may you find it there in the darkness while I bask in a Brilliant light.

Here's a puzzler from the article: "...what with Galilei as the historical embodiment of science over meaning..."

'Meaning' therefore requires the absence of science, of rational thought? It lives on ignorance and fabulation?

If that's true, let's go for meaninglessness, and the infinite bounty that comes with it.

What is new here? Back in college 35 years ago we discussed what it would do to your mind--or Jesus'-- to go wandering 40 days and nights in the desert, eating, presumably, locusts and weeds and drinking rain water. Or for a whole tribe to go wandering for 40 years in the desert, with not much to eat except weeds, cattle, and the occasional manna. And we know that wine was common and people got drunk. The Greeks found truth in the strange sayings of the oracles, but recently it was suggested that the oracular temple was over a gas fume that could have caused the scrambled language. The people who wrote the bible were just another sect of believers of one more of the many supernatural theories in the middle east at the time. And any of them could have been having visions from a number of natural causes.

Let's see - somewhere around here I have a photo of the presidents from WWI & WWII. Oh ya, here they are, right next a good shot of Hirohito. Now where is my photo of Moses and his gang??

Looking through my scrap book from 2500 BC I can't find a single clear image. Looking further ahead about 500 years I still can't get things to come into focus - there are just no clear, distinct images to be had. Everyone seems to have a different version of what happened back in those days.

That's probably because the entire OT tradition was founded on yet earlier traditions - remembering now that famous slogen from Ecclesiastes about 'nothing new under the sun'.......boy, was that ever right on the money about religion. After all, why reinvent the wheel??

Re-working religion is a time honored tradition. Re-cycling mythologies has always been an excellent employment opportunity.

If it wasn't for the many times re-written fictional props from the bible, where would fundamentalists be?? There's a lot at stake here.

TO SPIDERMAN2:

The Holy Spirit is who reveals all truths to mankind. You are wasting your time amongst the blind. We who do understand the truth know the exactness of the time at hand. Those who refuse will perish. Praise God on High for the day that all of this shall pass away. Stay strong and faint not, for the Kingdom of God is at Hand. I now understand what was revealed to me when I was 7 years old. I am now 49.

Anonymous (their name is legion) hasn't learned a thing in 42 years - child-like indeed. You're proud of this fact?? Religious arrogance of the worst kind.......

What I've learned is to discern the Truth. I'd rather be wrong in the end then fall to the ideals of a country in doom.

The Saved would never win a word war with these people. Stand and watch. It will all come to light very soon. The world systems as we know it is on its last breath. Heed.

"Pigs and fire always go together"

Mmm.... barbecued ribs....

Spiderman posing as anonymous. Writing style (?) says everything - there are no limits to this fool's persistence. Truly a fanclub of one......

Once again, just to be clear:

I renounce the Holy Spirit!

I renounce the father!

I renounce the son!

I renounce God!

I renounce Jesus!

CAN I GET A WITNESS?!!?!?!?!????!?!?!?!!?!!?!

Anonymous, thanks for the kind words. But honestly, I believe I am winning the discussion. The only reason I skip to answer some of their posts is that I find their replies as too shallow to warrant a response.

My belief in God is not based on blind faith but thru reason and at the same time a first hand experience of His power.

There's nothing that atheists throw at me that I haven't answered yet, to my knowledge. For me it's like discussing to a small kid who's just beginning to explore and full of ignorance.

God says that atheists are fools and it's true. They are no match to a sane person.

If what you mean is to win them to Christ, only God knows. Many of these atheists become as such because too often what they hear are lies. It's time for them to hear some truth.

Some of them may be converted when the said prophecies begin to take shape.

Yeah, barbecued ribs. And it's your ribs.

TO SPIDERMAN2:

Have you ever heard of the Beatitudes?

Have you ever heard of Jesus's saying of the Beatitudes?

If you look at the Beatitudes, you should be able to see that, there is God-Incarnate saying, "Blessed are the...", and in many of them, there is no mention of a belief in God, yet God Himself is calling them Blessed, interesting don't you think?

There are many people that don't believe that Jesus is Who He Is that follow Jesus much better than some of the people that say they believe that Jesus is God-Incarnate and Jesus did say, "Come follow Me", did He not?

Jesus condemned no one.

Jesus also said, "I have not come into the world to condemn it, but that the world MIGHT be saved", did He not?

You may or may not know the bible from cover to cover but you sure do not seem to know anything about God except for His Name.

You also don't seem to know anything about hell either because the fact is whoever goes to hell builds it themselves, but Jesus won the keys to hell and death and will use them in due time.

Jesus either took the sins of ALL OF HUMANITY upon Himself or He didn't.

On the cross, Jesus said, "Father forgive them", there is no asterick, them means them [all of them].

It says very clearly that God will declare Victory in favor of the Holy Ones, that Victory is for ALL OF MANKIND.

It also says, "Whatever you did to the least of My People, that you have done unto me", that is both the good and the bad that anyone has done.

The above paragragh says nothing about believing in God, so it should be obvious that it is important what you do, it is also important why you do things and it is also important what you know.

All people are created by God, satan created no one.

God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.

The True, Living, Triune, Triumphant God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.

Take care, be ready, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom [the new heavens and the new earth] at the dawning of the seventh day.

The captives shall be released and the dead shall rise, very simple, very true.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

• Humans have designed complexity into their gods to match the complexity of their cultures. The earliest religions were shamanistic, and mostly concerned with figuring out where the damn Mammoth went and what the heck do we eat now. With the early civilizations, Egypt and Mesopotamia developed complex myths around complex, but very human acting, gods. The creation and flood myths of Judaism are almost word for word from the Sumerian myths. The messianic virgin birth can be found in 6000 yr old hieroglyphs. The unbelievers slaughtered those early, mythical messiahs also. The Greek, Roman and Norse pantheons copy many of the same morality tales where all too human gods reward valor and courage in battle. The Jews had to return to their nomadic ways because they lacked the immoral fortitude to carry out the butchery their god demanded of them.
It is high damn time that humanity grows up. Religion has had its chance for 10,000 yrs, and we are still capable of the same tribal, murderous, racist and animalistic acts as when we were supposedly primitive.
These ancient sick myths designed by humans to control humans through fear and superstition have done enough damage. We can’t afford to continue to follow ancient tribal customs in an age where we have the ability to become gods ourselves, and end this grand accident of human existence.
God may be real. I don’t know. But I can promise you that all of the religions of the world cannot be correct. And I can show that all of the world’s religions have been used by humans to justify harm to other humans.
Isn’t it high damn time we learn to be responsible for our own actions To forget faith in forgiveness, or imagined heavens, and work to make ourselves, and this world, better for every being in it, based on carefully considered ethics that protect us from each other, while denying no truly victimless freedoms.
Am I stupid to believe that a bunch of hairless apes can come up with better social constructs than these ancient myths that bring so much hate to the world today?