Scientology vs. Anonymous

Yes, buy all means let's charge for information that would make you enlightened. We sure wouldn't want poor people to be enlightened.

The problem with scientology is that they are a soul destroying cult. There is a difference between faith and brainwashing.

Scientology has destroyed lives, families and livelyhoods. This is well documented. Scientology as an organization is well documented to be aggressive, paranoid and criminal. The blackmail and smear tactics of the scientologists are legendary. L Ron's wife jailed on federal charges fro trying to infiltrate and spy on the government.

Of course, there is also the whole space alien and psychic power aspect to really make it goofy. Catholics for instance to not tell you that for the low, low price of $720,000 (about how much it costs to get to OT VII) you will be able to move things with your mind.

The problem with scientology is that they are a soul destroying cult. There is a difference between faith and brainwashing.

Scientology has destroyed lives, families and livelyhoods. This is well documented. Scientology as an organization is well documented to be aggressive, paranoid and criminal. The blackmail and smear tactics of the scientologists are legendary. L Ron's wife jailed on federal charges fro trying to infiltrate and spy on the government.

Of course, there is also the whole space alien and psychic power aspect to really make it goofy. Catholics for instance to not tell you that for the low, low price of $720,000 (about how much it costs to get to OT VII) you will be able to move things with your mind.

I don't know much about the specific tenets scientolgy; my only cerebral connection to it is Tom Cruise. But it strikes me that if this organization is sincerely offering enlightenment, then the only "real" motivation for people to stick with it through the hard times (which are inevitable when confronting and eliminating your ego), is the financial investment they have made. In earlier times one thing that kept the disciple at the "altar" of the sage- a sincere agony for growth. But in times of doubt and frustration and confusion, what kept the ancient disciple on the path? Maybe it was the commitment already made, manifest in service already performed (usually cutting firewood, cleaning, and cooking for 3 years each before receiving a single teaching!). These days, when students don't have to go into the mountains to learn from enlightened masters, and must actually live two lives-the regular functional life of the 21st century, and the grueling, uncomfortable life of spiritual growth, I think paying for teachings is symbolic of giving up the ego/material world. What other way is there to motivate the materialistic small-self during those times of doubt? Money. And who says religious groups have to be "moral" (giving teachings for free) according to 21st century North American standards? If you can give up your coin, you will be more able to give up the rest.

I don't know much about the specific tenets scientolgy; my only cerebral connection to it is Tom Cruise. But it strikes me that if this organization is sincerely offering enlightenment, then the only "real" motivation for people to stick with it through the hard times (which are inevitable when confronting and eliminating your ego), is the financial investment they have made. In earlier times one thing that kept the disciple at the "altar" of the sage- a sincere agony for growth. But in times of doubt and frustration and confusion, what kept the ancient disciple on the path? Maybe it was the commitment already made, manifest in service already performed (usually cutting firewood, cleaning, and cooking for 3 years each before receiving a single teaching!). These days, when students don't have to go into the mountains to learn from enlightened masters, and must actually live two lives-the regular functional life of the 21st century, and the grueling, uncomfortable life of spiritual growth, I think paying for teachings is symbolic of giving up the ego/material world. What other way is there to motivate the materialistic small-self during those times of doubt? Money. And who says religious groups have to be "moral" (giving teachings for free) according to 21st century North American standards? If you can give up your coin, you will be more able to give up the rest.

Since the Church of Scientology has not paid me to be enlightened, I do not object that there are protests against them.

For that matter, aren't there protests against many other organizations as well? Should I object to that too?

Maybe when you live your whole life brainwashed, when you start to wake up, it appears to other people that you are being brainwashed. Change you point of view or your perspective, and anything can be true!

I wonder how long it will take one of their creepy discussion monitors to sniff this thread out and start shouting us down. Usually they would be here already.

[And I never thought I'd be on the side of the IRS about much of anything, but I wouldn't mind seeing this "church" pay taxes all the way back to 1954, plus penalties].

It's hard to be sympathetic to a group that has agressively used intimidation to attack the first amendment rights of its critic. (For one of the more egregious examples, see the Wikipedia article on Paulette Cooper.)
It's not the religion or the religious beliefs that are being attacked, but the outrageuos behavior of a rogue organization. Many member sincerely believe that they are saving the world, and justify any action to destroy the Church's perceived enemies.
Members believe that they are elite (e.g., Tom Cruise, the expert on psychiatry) and have been given the secrets to the universe. Scientology is much easier than actually thinking and researching, although it costs quite a bit more.
Anyone care to make a political cartoon of Hubbard?

Neither souls nor lives can be detroyed. Situations can be changed, and so can the way they are seen (one person sees a situation as positive, while another sees the same situation as negative), but soul/life is energy and cannot be destroyed or created. It has no origin or end, and is therefore limitless. A soul is only limited by perspective. The physical manifestation of life can only appear to end (as in death).

Yes, they do seem to be quite aggressive and intolerant of any sort of open discussion at all. Maybe they feel they will miss out on some dollars if anybody talks about it.

The cult of prosperity is hardly peculiar to Scientology. It'a as American as apple pie.
Denominations ranging from reformed Calvinists to be-jeweled Harlom bible shouters, and any number of evangelical mega-churchs on the West Coast and elsewhere equate the right to wealth with whatever religious claptrap they're peddling.

In the USA success equates with wealth like nothing else - we see many versions of 'the power of positive thinking' on NPR (e.g.Wayne Dyer) and elsewhere although not necessarily pushing religion - but it sure has a sermon-like ring to it.

It so happens that the original 'positive thinker', Dr. Norman Vincent Peele was some kind of ordained minister......the inspirational minister as con artist was never done better than the late great Burt Lancaster in the timeless flick 'Elmer Gantry'. So-called legitimate religion abounds with larger than life 'preacher as con artist' personalities.

I'm curious as to how Scientology managed to overpower the IRS and gain tax exempt status? What exactly are the criteria that need to be met for establishing a religion?? Sounds to me like the Scientologists have got a battery of pretty adept attorneys on retainer.

They make a perfect case for striking down the rule of tax exemptions for any and all religions. What a great additional source of taxable income!

These protests have absolutely nothing to do with the 1st amendment

The 1st amendment states:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

It applies to the government (Congress), not private individuals who are free to criticize any religion or other organization.

Before writing an article it would help if the author knew the facts!

i'm not a scientologist, but if it calls itself a religions and it acts like a religion and it falls under US legal defenition of religion then it should be respected as such. believe me, there's plenty of religions which i wish did not exist and i love to criticize, but i deeply believe in their right to exist. it's very hypocritical to put it a lower level just because it does not resemble a religion we are all familiar with.

Joe says:

"The problem with scientology is that they are a soul destroying cult. There is a difference between faith and brainwashing."

Joe,

All religions are cults. Scientology is no different than any of the others.

Scientology is not a religion. It is a business enterprise that sells seminars, classes, books, etc. I know for a fact that they brainwash people, because my son is a Scientologist. They grabbed him literally off a sidewalk as he was walking along in downtown Portland, OR, at the age of 18, and they indoctrinated him. We have argued many times over the last 19 years, but I cannot get through to him. They control his thinking and he is living a life not even a tiny fraction of the interesting life that L. Ron Hubbard lived. He works long long hours for room and board, plus a tiny bit of spending money. His entire life is controlled and limited by the needs of the organization. It breaks my heart to know that my son is missing out on so much of the possibilities of life.

"All religions are cults. Scientology is no different than any of the others".

Best. Post. Ever.

Sounds like the real difference between scientology and other religions is that others start the brainwashing at birth, whereas scientology focuses on getting you after you are grown up and have money.

Hunh? "So is it because most people don't believe Scientology is deserving of the First Amendment shroud?" This doesn't make any sense. The First Amendment doesn't "shroud" a religion from criticism by nongovernmental entities. The First Amendment protects the rights of individuals - or groups of individuals - to criticize a religion and, in most cases, their right to do so anonymously.

"A group that calls itself Anonymous has been putting the Church of Scientology in a world of hurt lately-with cyber mischief and costumed protests around the world -- but nobody much seems to care. Why?" Because I'm not much interested in Scientology, and they seem plenty rich and powerful enough to bear up under some mocking and criticism.

"Why aren't civil rights organizations and anti-hate-speech activists pouncing on these protesters?" Well, anti-hate-speech activitists are generally just trying to quell speech they don't happen to believe in, so maybe Scientologists could hope for their support. But why would civil rights organizations intervene in a debate between two private parties?

Anonymous at 12:57 has it exactly right.

all forms of discerning thought patterns are cults.
ism and ologys are cults. definitions of good and bad are cults. a cult thought is one that isolates any single thing or things from the rest of the world and then attempts to justify it as an independent entity to its surroundings. what difference does it make as far as what form we sculpt our misery into?

Scientologists have the First Amendment right to exercise etheir religion freely. Those who dislike Scientology have the First Amendment right to peaceably assemble and speak their views. I'm not sure what the issue here is.

Metropolitan:

There are lots of religions I don't care for either. And it frustrated me that their tax exempt status means that we are forced to subsidize them with our tax dollars. (the subsidy is indirect, since my tax bill is higher because they pay no taxes, hence that potential tax payment money stays in their pockets).

They certainly have a right to exist, but no religion should be tax exempt. Religions offer a service, and are payed for it, and should have to pay taxes on their income. We should not have to foot their tax bill.

Arjuna 9 - you have my sympathy. I used to walk by scientology headquarters in Portland frequently some 10 years ago, and they'd be out on the sidewalk recruiting. At that time Portland had a rather curious sub-culture - many young panhandlers living on the street and pushing shopping carts around the parks, downtown, and everywhere in the city right along side the long-term mentally ill homeless folks that we see in every city. I suspect that many of the early converts to Scientology came from this population.

Of course they're a cult that thrives on the power of the 'us vs them' dynamic... small scale group membership in a closed environment has a great effect on certain personalities, and especially teens and young adults. Self-identity is all about the movement and the 'higher purpose'.....scary stuff from an organization that has legitimate tax-exempt status and backed by the power of notable celebrities.

Ultimately it's no different in kind than the (far less legitimate) dynamics of gang membership - fronted by a quasi-religion.

So... Criticizing and satirizing a religion is hate speech? Talk about misunderstanding exactly whom the 1st amendment is intended to protect!

You and I may disagree with the methods of the Church of Scientology, specially high fee for their material, but there is no doubt that Dianetics works and can change lives for better. The Church is sitting on top of a treasure of spirituality. For a price, they give you a piece of the treasure. I won’t mind paying for it if I could afford it. But I can’t. Too bad!

I hate to pile on but the First Amendment reference is disturbingly foolish. Everyone writing on the interface of religion and law should at least understand the basics. Strike that. Everyone should understand the basics. It's 8th grade civics.

As other have pointed out, private actors aren't covered by the First Amendment. In fact, the First Amendment doesn't even necessarily prohibit the government from criticizing actions taken in the name of religion, as these protestors have done. George Bush is free to rail against, say, religiously-motivated suicide bombers and jihadists without running afoul of the First Amendment.

Kool - how can you be a convert without the conversion experience?? Donations anyone???

I like Scientology. It has opened my eyes that they and all other religious organizations are fake and useless - thanks guys, I owe you.

Scientology is a sick, tyrannical money-making cult. It is more powerful than the current NY Mafia. It bought off IRS officials investigating them during the 1980s--openly and proudly,knowing everyone is afraid to testify against them for fear of having their legs broken or their car blown up. This is not a joke and this group is not another a New Age airy-fairy group. It is organized crime.

"There is a difference between faith and brainwashing."

Only to the faithful and the brainwashed.

It's not so much that Scientology deserves more protection, it's that religion in general deserves less.

Non-profits receive certain advantages from the government and should be treated the same whether religious or secular. For-profit corporations, reasonably, do not receive the same advantages as non-profits. They should also be treated the same, whether ExxonMobil or the Church of Scientology (or possibly the several large television ministries whose finances are currently under investigation by Sen. Leahy's Senate Committee).

In the late 1960s, I became involved with Scientology. Back in those days, they used to freely sell a book by Hubbard called "Scientology Ethics". In that book they classified non-Scientologists into various categories, the worst of which was "enemy." The book then pronounced that any action against a designated "enemy", including killing them, was "ethical." All this seems perhaps farfetched, until I discovered that all psychiatrists and psychologists were, as a group, "enemies." It is no surprise that Hubbard's little book on Scietology "ethics" is no longer available. It was one of many things that made me leave my brief flirtation with this cult.

There is no such thing as brainwashing! Arjuna 9- your son has not been brainwashed. He has chosen to beleive in a certain view or views. A question- if his beleif in, or practice of scientology had had no effect on your relationship, it was exactly the same as it was before he was "brainwashed", would you be saying he was brainwashed? Just becuase you feel some emotion, such as resentment (because he does not spend time with you), or anger (because you could not get him to see your view) does not mean that he is not thinking completely for himself, which, actually is the only way we can think. Sure, lots of information is filtered before we make a decision, but ultimately we have a choice, every moment. We choose every single moment of our lives, and to condescend that any human being is not completely resposible and accountable to their actions and decisions, even thoughts, is not only inacurate, but demeans, I think, his intrinsic value. Example, you were not brainwashed by the washington post to write a response to the above article, just because they encouraged you to do so. You chose, just like you son is doing. I really hope you can see this.

What religion isn;t a giant ponzi scheme, selling the afterlife to the living? Look at the wealth of the Roman Catholic Church for one example. In one breath they tell you to give to the poor and five minutes later the collection plates being passed.

Atheism, skepticism, science, and agnosticism are all free. And since you can't prove or disprove something taken on faith...

There was a piece in the New Yorker on Scientology's Celebrity Center in La-La land, which included a review of the Christmas show, featuring the children of several famous cult-drones. I ask you, can you imagine a mosque or a synagogue sponsoring a Christmas show? A religion? Gimme a break!

Freestinker,

Technically speaking, you are correct when you state that Scientology is a "cult" like other religious denominations. But my guess is that most people recognize the word "cult" by one of its other definitions, "a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader." From my own personal experience, this definition does not pertain to most Baptist denominations.

Dr R.P.,

I can only speak for Christian churches I have a connection to, but I'm not sure what "income" you are referring to. The tithes and donations received by most churches are redistributed to persons in need.

Yeah, Scientology is a "religion" as much as organized Crime and the Mafia are religions.

Give me an effing break!

When the CO$ starts holding bake sales to raise money, I'll consider them a church.

from IRS website FAQ:

"The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, and no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction."

The IRS lawyers just didn't care as much as Scientologist lawyers.
Tom Cruise's net earning inure to his benefit and he promotes his career as a scientologist. But he's learning disabled and learning disabled scientologists are privileged to be chosen for tax exempt status.

~L. RON HUBBARD~ didn't think Scientology was a religion until it started making enough money that a tax exemption looked attractive. He invented the entire thing as a pseudo-medical, scientific system, billing it as therapy and nothing else, until he discovered he could sell it better as religion and keep the profits; I think that is the most telling thing.

from IRS website FAQ:

"The organization must not be organized or operated for the benefit of private interests, and no part of a section 501(c)(3) organization's net earnings may inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction."

The IRS lawyers just didn't care as much as Scientologist lawyers.
Tom Cruise's net earning inure to his benefit and he promotes his career as a scientologist. But he's learning disabled and learning disabled scientologists are privileged to be chosen for tax exempt status.

Why is a private group of citizens protesting Scientology more newsworthy and apparently more deserving of discussion that any of the other inconsistencies we see when dealing with religion. Why is it that the President can endorse Christianity "Terrorists... 9-11..... terrorists.. Iraq..-9-1l. Thank you and God Bless America" without a word from the pundits and papers, even though the Global War on Terror is primarily being fought against Extreme Islam and as such the President by his words is making it a religious war..Christianity vs. Islam. Why is it that if Obama were to come out and claim atheism, his opponents would use it against him, and he would undoubtedly lose standing among the Electorate. Why is it that all I have to do to be a Christian in America is claim to be one, and that otherwize my words and actions don't have be consistent with the teachings of Christianity. How many murderers on Death Row have found god and forgiveness.... after taking away another's life. How can a man claim to be a Christian, and order people to their deaths, from the comfort of a cozy government compound..And how does being a Christian square with the statements "Bring it on", or even better "We will catch OBL, dead or Alive" And how come "God told me to do it" isn't an excuse for somebody who rapes or kidnaps or kills, and a man saying as much would be judged by most to be insane, but when a president uses it as one of his reasons for invading another country, nobody says shti.

Private people protesting a private religion is the least of our problems.

The First Amendment Shroud you speak of protects the critics of Scientology who are viciously litigated by Scientology's attorneys. When individuals and groups are sued by Scientology for exercising their right to free speech, Scientology becomes a THREAT to the First Amendment! This is a predatory criminal organization, not the hapless victim of internet hackers.

"The problem with scientology is that they are a soul destroying cult."

How is that different than any other religion? The same has been said about, for example, Catholicism and Mormonism for longer than anyone can remember, and pretty much every other major or minor religion. That someone who doesn't go in for it doesn't think it's a good idea doesn't tell us much.

"There is a difference between faith and brainwashing. "

Indeed, although it's not a distinction that any of the so-called "legitimate" religions respect any more than Scientology. At least the Scientologists recruit adults, rather than the preferred method of most "legitimate" religions, which is to brainwash children from birth.

"Scientology has destroyed lives, families and livelyhoods. This is well documented."

Again, what religion hasn't? Do I really have to bring up the Inquisition, or the Middle East, or any of the million other examples? If you rank the religions in order of number of lives destroyed, Scientology is going to come in pretty darned low.

"Scientology as an organization is well documented to be aggressive, paranoid and criminal."

Again, not seeing how this differs from other religions.

Don't get me wrong: Scientology is brazen hogwash that only deluded fools could possibly go in for. But the only real difference between it and other religions is that it's newer, and so doesn't possess the same cache. Which is exactly why it's so much fun to watch members of other religions try to criticize it: they know that "it's new" is a counterproductive criticism, and so they end up writing criticisms of religion in general, and then naively pretending that they somehow apply only to Scientology. Silly, really.

Read this 6 part investigative series from the LA Times about Scientology and all will be revealed about the question of what Scientology really is and what kind of respect it deserves:

http://www.lermanet.com/scientologynews/latimes/latimes.htm

First of all, it is ridiculous to categorize Scientology and any other religion together. How many other religions FORCE you to pay for their teachings? NONE. How many other religions take control of your finances? NONE. How many other religions WON'T let you leave? NONE. How many other religions have killed it's own members when they tried to leave? NONE.
You say that any other religion brainwashes you like Scientology does, but you fail to realize that Scientology takes control of your money, they won't let you leave, and many of their members have died under their 'care'.
Atheists who insult Christianity and other religions because they categorize them along with Scientology as 'cults' obviously haven't done any research.
www.clambake.org

No, I don't think most people consider Scientology a church. More like a cult. And a freaky cult contrived by a bad science fiction writer at that!
But legally speaking, since there's no religious test in America and anyone can worship anything they want and call it a religion. Here's an example: Just like Chistians worship Christ, I'm going to call myself a...Letucian. I choose as my spiritual leader Head of Lettuce! I worship Head of Lettuce and his high fiber benefits to mankind. And I commemorate when he died for our...SALADS! I will festoon Head of Lettuce with tomatoes, olives, cucumbers and croutons. And I will blanket his sacrifice with blue cheese dressing (or maybe honey mustard) and have a spiritual experience every time I eat. Lettuce pray...

PS to Claire:
You've kind of got a Virginia Madsen look going on. Very hot. Can I worship you? :)

For those criticizing the First Amendment's application to Scientology, do your research. The conflict is between copyright and trademark law and the First Amendment. Scientology uses these IP laws to sue its critics because those critics must necessarily cite Scientology doctrine in their criticism. Since IP law is passed by the government, the First Amendment is necessarily implicated for those who want to criticize Scientology.

In its business model and with its emphasis on collecting money for auditing sessions, etc., Scientology is different only in degree from other religions.

And it its elaborate, nutball, evidence-free belief structure and cosmology, Scientology isn't different in degree or in kind from other religions. Scientology just seems more strange and cult-like because it's been around for only 53 years instead of 530 years or 1,053 years. With the passage of time and with repetition, utterly ridiculous and patently non-factual superstitious nonsense becomes familiar, and hence comes to seem less nonsensical.

I think it's fair to characterize scientology as a religion because its doctrines do involve a belief in supernatural beings or agents. What's a little unusual is that those beings or agents are evil and instead of trying to propitiate or appease them, the Scientologist takes bogus steps to become "clear" of them.

"I think most readers of this blog who have belonged to a religious organization at some point in life will agree with me that Scientology is by no means alone in it's pursuit of worldly gain."

And greed is frowned on whenever it intersects with religion. Scientology isn't being criticized for it any more than any other greedy church (or cult).

"I think most readers of this blog who have belonged to a religious organization at some point in life will agree with me that Scientology is by no means alone in it's pursuit of worldly gain."

And greed is frowned on whenever it intersects with religion. Scientology isn't being criticized for it any more than any other greedy church (or cult).

L Ron Hubbard once said that the best way to get rich is to start a religion.

I think that says it all.

Don't understand where the beef is. What's the difference between "believing" in new age nonsense or in a set of beliefs based on bronze age myths? While each follow separate schemata, they both have become experts in extracting capital from the wallets of suckers...so what? Let's keep it a level playing field, you know: toleration, first amendment rights, freedom to make a, ostensibly, profitable living...before someone becomes emboldened enough, heaven forbid, to attack our own set of beliefs that just may not be a whole lot different.

I think Gregoire and FF sum this entire conversation quite aptly. To be "angry" with the tenets of Scientology is the height of hypocrisy. Simply because one faith system has been around longer does not give it greater rights than another. For those who argue that Scientology takes control of your money, it's best to look in the mirror at the televangelists and other scheisters who do the same: Give money, receive enlightenment. It's all so farcical.

I don't think Scientology is a religion, and I personally despise what I know about it. That being said, however, it is not my place (nor yours) to tell people that what they are believing in is a farce. Scientology is not commiting genocide. If people want to get sucked into the BS and pay them tons of money to belong to an organization who exists soley with the purpose of gaining money, I say let them.

Scientologists can talk all they want. Their actions have not once impacted my personal life. I don't have to listen to them, and neither do you. Scientology is like slowing down to look at a car wreck, only to realize that it crashed years ago and is nothing but a rusting shell.

http://www.livingwithanerd.com

I personally think Scientology is stupid. But if religions making money or charging money for spiritual enlightenment is a disqualifier for the moniker "Religion," well than look out organized religion you are all out of business. Does anybody remember tithing? I'm sorry but passing the hat or basket are pretty routine in most religions and the chaplain asking for contributions is a daily occurrence. How about indulgences. People have been paying for enlightenment a long time, that's why we have so many religions....

I'm really not sure what makes something a religion in the first place, so you should take my comments with a grain of salt.

But Scientolology has tenets, adherents, a body of belief - its own mythology, like every other church. And they all make money, don't be fooled by that phony distinction.

It seems pretty odd (any organization fronted by Tom Cruise would be), but to me all religions are odd.

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...well, you know the rest of it.

Scientology is a personality cult, much like Mormonism and Christian Science. I suppose the word 'scientology' was chosen because 'science' is a neutral term not likely to get many folks fired up. And The Church of L. Ron Hubbard wouldn't sound as hifalutin and 'legitimate'. As long as I am not required to practice scientology, I don't see what all the hoopla is about. And as long Tom Cruise wants to act the fool promoting it, I say let him promote. It helps lots of entertainment writers fill up all those blank pages on deadline. That's a worthy purpose right there!

wait.... tom cruise can move things with his mind?

Andrew: we do have a choice, yes, but sometimes other people dehumanize us until we feel we have limited options. That is not a fair way to exercise our free will; cult leaders, abusive domestic partners and the like all know this. They milk it to get what they want from people.

Maybe it's our choice, too, to let people dehumanize us. We should also be held accountable for what we do; however, the simple fact that we are born with a choice does not automatically shield us from the influence of others.

Maybe this father is resentful that his son chose a cult over his family, but maybe that cult made the son feel worthless without his new "family". No one except the people involved will know what really happened.

That said, I'm glad we have 1st amendment protections to protest any organization that uses such tactics to get and keep members. We have a lot of protesting to do...

As near as I can tell, the difference between a cult and a religion is a couple of hundred years.

I don't have a problem with any religion or belief system as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others. The only difference between a cult and a religion is the number of people who believe in it. The conservative "Christian" right has done much to undermine our rights as citizens. If Scientologists were to gain that much support, they probably would too. Religion is a right as long as it isn't imposed on others.

"But nobody seems much to care [that there are protests] why?"

Perhaps because we want more protests not fewer. Where were the protests against Southern Christian denominations that justified slavery then fought desegregation and equal opportunity? Where ARE the protests against organized religions that scapegoat Gays and nonbelievers for social ills and use their tax-exempt monies to fight laws granting equal rights to Gays and nonbelievers. Where are the protests of the Catholic Church's 1000 year oppression of women both in church and out? Why is there no protest of their tax-free lobbying to outlaw access to contraception to ALL women? The Boy Scouts have suffered legally for their discrimination against Gays as have several national clubs that want to bar women. Our not-so-great faiths are legally exempt from laws prohibiting discrimination. Should they be exempt from protests too? Why?

JH,

How does religion "scapegoat gays and nonbelievers for social ills"? I'm really quite curious.

Thanks.

Scientology is a criminal organization that happens to make use of religion.

How many religions are investigated by the FBI? How many religious organizations are officially banned in many western democracies as a cult? The Church of Scientology falls into both categories.

Wow Claire, you really don't understand much about Scientology, and especially this Anonymous vs. Scientology flap if your conclusion is that Anonyous is somehow trying to limit Scientology's First Amendment rights.

Scientology is different from other religions in many ways. Firstly, and what started this whole fracas, is that they use litigation and any other means necessary to suppress the public availability of church teachings and first amendment protected criticism of the "church".

This means that someone who wishes to expose the Scientology "Fair Game" policy - where critics (or SPs in their lingo) are lied to, tricked, sued, harassed, intimidated, physically harmed or even killed - by publishing the original document where L. Ron Hubbard authorized it, is likely to by hit by numerous expensive harassment law suits. It means that Scientology fraudulently claims intellectual property rights over their "E-Meters" to prevent their legal resale on site such as eBay.

Far from needing more First Amendment protection themselves, Scientologists need to respect the First Amendment rights of others. Since they do not, they are being rightfully attacked.

What's wrong with criticizing religion? Any intellectual or cultural enterprise is fair game for criticism. One can certainly quarrel with a religion's claims, doctrines, or practices, and with the behavior of individual practitioners of a religion. If you think Scientology is harmful, then criticize it. If you think the Southern Baptist Convention or Islam is misogynistic, then say so. Why is religion presumed to be off limits to discussion and criticism? (Martin Luther sure criticized, didn't he? Wasn't that OK?)

The question for me is about freedom from taxation. If you want to believe the moon is made of green cheese and that we were all created by the Great Pumpkin, go ahead. Knock yerself out. But everyone has to pay taxes. So, it's not just the Scientologists, but EVERY church that should be paying taxes. There was a time when churches ran all the hospitals, all the orphanages, the poor houses, such old-folks homes as there were. This is no longer the case. The Catholic Church just put up an obscenely grand cathedral in Los Angeles, within a few short blocks of one of the biggest homeless populations outside of India, and I don't see the Catholic Church's name on any of the various missions or low-rent hotels that try to help those people survive. All churches should pay taxes, starting with Scientology and right on down the line.

Andrew - are you by chance a scientologist??
Just curious, since you seem to be an expert on brainwashing......

Anonymous:

You are too biased. There may be difference of opinion in how the church makes or manages its money but the message is as good as GOLD. This discussion might give some people a chance to go and pick up the “Dianetics”. You don’t have to go to church. Just read Dianetics.

Again, forget the messenger, read the message.

Yes, Scientology is a cult that has destroyed individuals and families, while charging to do it. And how does this differ from most other religions? Or at least their potential? Certainly I've seen families broken up by fundamentalist Mormons, Catholics and Southern Baptists.

It's hard for me to see how Scientology is much different from any of those religions.

In the 1980s I lived in Toronto and every time I would walk past the Scientology building on Yonge street a young man or woman would approach me and ask me if I wanted to take a test. "It's free!" they said. I was suspicious and did a little reading about the "Dianetics" program they were trying to sell. What I found out was that Dianetics was the invention of a Science-Fiction writer named L. Ron Hubbard. He was a classic paranoid authoritarian. He wasn't interested in helping people. What he wanted was to control them. Whether you call Scientology a religion or not, the fact remains that Hubbard ran the church with an iron-fist. Read his biography and then ask yourself what good could come out of his greedy, scheming drug-addled mind.

PS Scientology is legally considered a business, not a religion, in the Province of Quebec in Canada.

Christopher Hitchen's main thesis in 'God is Not Great' is that religion is a big con - the effort of the 'enlightened' few to prey on those who are 'unenlightened'; ripping off their money, possessions and women. I place Scientology in this category - a religion and a con. People like Tom Cruise could be seen as grifters, shilling for a corrupt organization. Personally, I think Scientology fits all the requirements of a religion, in Hitchens sense. I also think all religions should be taxed and regulated just like any other business - to keep them from scamking the poor, uneducated masses who are their targets.

Christopher Hitchen's main thesis in 'God is Not Great' is that religion is a big con - the effort of the 'enlightened' few to prey on those who are 'unenlightened'; ripping off their money, possessions and women. I place Scientology in this category - a religion and a con. People like Tom Cruise could be seen as grifters, shilling for a corrupt organization. Personally, I think Scientology fits all the requirements of a religion, in Hitchens sense. I also think all religions should be taxed and regulated just like any other business - to keep them from scamking the poor, uneducated masses who are their targets.

A brief remark on the nature of religion.

"All prayer is based on the presumption that God is corruptible."

A brief remark on the nature of religion.

"All prayer is based on the presumption that God is corruptible."

All you people need to do is research scientology a little further and look up the interview with L. Ron Hubbard Jr. He exposes his father and this cult big time!!!!

Go to www.Scientomogy.com

good-good info you will not be disappointed, the filthy group has been trying to make this site disappear for a long time... too bad suckas!!!

This is just some random sensation gathering drivel from washingtopost to attract traffic.
This blog entry is just a waste of internet bandwidth, trying to drum up sensation where none exists.

So "anonymous" indulged in: Costumed protests around the world, releasing a YouTube video, demonstrations at Scientology centers in New York, Toronto, Britain, Australia, creepily wearing Guy Fawkes/"V for Vendetta" masks, posters that read "Religion Is Free, Scientology Is Not" and "Trade Secrets Are For Business, Not Religion" and "Honk If You Hate Scientology." and we should all get our panties in a knot and have "first amendment" discussion about it ? Incredible !

Everybody has the right to peacefully protest anything they want, and that might include wearing creepy masks or holding up banners.

Move along, nothing to see here.

I saw in last month's Vanity Fair where, Steven Spielberg was upset with Cruise's behavior in recent years, because he think it damaged their failed movie, War of the Worlds.
Also, Speilbert told Cruise about a doctor who'd prescribed medication for one of the director's friends. Well, the next thing you know, the Scientologist are picketing the doctor's office. They are strange. You think not, just walk up to the front door at their Celebrity Center in Hollywood. You'd swear you were approaching a military installation.

Follow the money.

It is THAT simple.

Track the lies in their official pronouncements... Such as coca cola is helping to distribute their information.

Simple again.

Now add the fact that the cult was created by L. Ron Hubbard on a bet that he couldn't turn the science fiction religion he penned into his pulp-novels into a real religion... He and a relative (the nephew who won a multi-million dollar court judgement against the cult for unpaid royalties owed to him for his partial authorship of the book - Dianetics, I believe.)

It all adds up to a cult telling lost people that an alien named Lord Xenu collected aliens who had over populated the universe and froze the, fleww them to earth and dropped them into volcanoes, then captured their floating souls with alien ship soul-collectors. But alas (GASP!) the souls escaped and that problem you have with your wife is really one of them hassling your family.

...and all together scientology adds up to a big fat SCAM.

Call it a secret society with paid membership.
You just can't call such a for-profit enterprise a religion, because it isn't one... and they SHOULD be paying taxes!

Am I missing something? What does religion have to do with the first amendment? As far as I recall, scientologists are allowed to say whatever they want (short of threatening or encouraging violence) and non-scientologists are afforded the same right. Is the real question "should we apply laws when and where we feel like it?" I find the question as insidious as the "church's" practice of litigating against individual rights.

jUSTLY like what 'UNANYMOUS' would say,

"Go F.U.C.K.--O.F.F. somewhere!

why do people apologise for $cientology by comparing them to other institutes that have commited crimes?
im pretty sure that two wrongs are still two wrongs.
and the 'church' of $cientology, in my opinion, have commited too many wrongs to be viewed as anything other than a sleazy corporation of vultures who prey on the weak, vulnerable and well intentioned...as long as they can afford it.

Anonymous is not protesting the religion of Scientology. If you want to believe that 75 million years ago Galactic Overlord Xenu blew our Thetans (souls) up in a volcano, good for you.

What Anonymous is concerned with is the fraud and abuse by Scientology management. I'm guessing that the pro-scn posters here are Public and don't even know what goes on in Sea-Org or the conditions of the RPF or the "RPF's RPF". The child abuse of those kids born into Staff families. Or that David Miscavige is a little tyrant that verbally and physically abuses his staff. He squirreling the tech to line his own pockets and build more luxuries for his hollywood friends. Did you know that the Org Staff secretly hate you? They feel you are not dedicated enough and are only nice to you because you have money.

There is no higher states of being. There is nothing at the end of the bridge but a void. If there were any real OTs on Earth we (Anonymous) would not be here. Its been over 21 years since LRH died, why hasn't he come back to help clear the planet?

I am of a couple minds about this.

Scientology scares me and has ever since I realized that people right here in America can sue, destroy, lie to or kill someone simply for disagreeing with them. And do so in the name of religion.

It's ultimately someone's decision to make that first payment to the organization, hard sell or not. But when people are getting hurt, lives and finances and families wrecked, and this includes abuse of children, something must be done.

This organization has been kicked out of Germany, Greece and who knows how many other places.

The IRS gave Scientology a tax exempt status after a closed door meeting between the head of the IRS and the current leader, Miscavige.

I applaud Anonymous' efforts, but I hope they don't resort to the same tactics that they claim to be protesting against. I hope whatever they choose to do is done legally with respect for even Scientology's members to believe as they choose.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Atheists, of course, look at Scientology and see it as just as silly as any other religion and don't see what the difference is.

I firmly believe that there is a difference. Scientology is not a religion; Scientology is an organization that claims to be a religion in order to reap the benefits of religious tolerance in this country.

Incidentally, its non-taxable status isn't actually AS a religion, but as a non-profit corporation, and only after a protracted legal battle.

When you cut away the extraneous details of every major religion, you find a core essence that centers around love, compassion and the surrender of the lower ego to the embrace of the infinite. Regardless of how the organizations that propagate these paths sometimes contradict and subvert this (the ego is sneaky that way), the center of it remains. Scientology has no such center--it pretends to have one, but pretending is not enough.

To Joe who said "...Scientology has destroyed lives, families and livelyhoods. This is well documented. ...."

As if other "religions" have not? Crack open your history books and count the millions of people that have died at the hands of the recognized "normal" religions. How man lives, families and livelyhoods were killed in Holy Wars and Crusades throughout history?

If anything, Scientology differs from established religions because they haven't waged brutal wars in the name of their own god.

To Joe who said "...Scientology has destroyed lives, families and livelyhoods. This is well documented. ...."

As if other "religions" have not? Crack open your history books and count the millions of people that have died at the hands of the recognized "normal" religions. How many lives, families and livelyhoods were killed in Holy Wars and Crusades throughout history?

If anything, Scientology differs from established religions because they haven't waged brutal wars in the name of their own god.

No, Claire! It is YOU who are far worse than not skeptical: ... cynical, perverted, I don't have the right word.

Most religious people are not greedy, and Michael Shermer would do well not only to re-read what Richard Dawkins had to say when he reviewed Carl Sagan's book on "Varieties of Religious Experience" -- yes, and Carl Sagan, from my interpretation of the not insignifanct amount of literature of his that I have read, IS, indeed 'religious' in the same sense that Sir Martin Reese says that he is not only 'religious' but loves the sense of common sharing with the rest of humanity that he gets from attending Church that he does not get anywhere else, and even more so Abdus Salaam, whose Nobel Prize acceptance speech Michael ought to read -- but also about dianetics, which is a peudo-science with some non-negligible grounding in sound psychiatric principles but also much nonsense about the philosophy of the mind/body problem that Douglas Hofstadter, Daniel Dennnett, Michael Shermer, Antonio Damasio and Freeman (author of How Barins Make Up Their Minds) are trying to investigate from a sounder scientific point of view.

So far from being an optimist about both Scietology's corporate profits and religion's greed, he should come to me for spiritual guidance on how to be more charitable to the human specie.

I'm not completely surprised at any religion expressing shock - faux or not - at the recent "cyber terrorism" directed at $cientology.

Faux, heh, pardon that pun.

Anyway, Scientology is a UFO cult, anyone with the wherewithal to look around online knows this. On the other hand, they don't practice the ritualistic consumption of their avatar's flesh and blood, believe in zombies, or promote any magical powers any less believable than your average Christian "miracle"... OT or NT or common era.

You are right to be concerned about any public display of enlightenment or criticism of magical thinking; it stands to destroy the "worldy gain" accumulated by so many churches, pastors, ministers, priests, and other godmen out there scamming people.

Plus, they're just so kooky. =) Here's an idea: go ASK any Scientolgist who Xenu is and listen to their response closely.

Scientology is a sham. A Farce. Created by a Science Fiction writer trying to get rich. Their core beliefs are mystism combined with a laughable science fiction beliefs. Only suckers and the gullible fall for such practices. Kirstie Alley, your Religion doesnt seems to prevent you from getting fat over and over.

I have read Dianects and know people who left Scientology as they started to see their bank accounts getting smaller while trying to achieve the next stage in this cult.

Shame on your Tom Cruise/John Travolta. ET PHONE HOME, losers.

Their right to swing their fist stops at the point of my nose.

Of course they can get on a soapbox in Hyde Park, or pretty much anywhere, and say whatever they wish.

I do suspect their soapbox will be near that of those that believe the Earth is FLAT.

Scientology certainly has the right to exist. What it does not have is the right to claim results it can not provide, to advertise freedoms it has no intention or means of ensuring, or to intimidate any and all who would question their doctrine. That, by any reasonable standard, is not a Church. Scientology it is a business, selling a product, and should be treated as such.

Andrew you are wrong. A person who is immersed in a certain world view is extremely inclined to agree with that world view. That is "brainwashing" and to a certain degree we are all "brainwashed". But when an organization grabs an 18 year old off the street and immerses him in idyllic sounding teachings, and then slowly reshapes his life-for their benefit- that is detrimental. A sensitive and idealistic person sometimes is more easily influenced by a large group with the right propaganda, than someone who is more rebellious. Thank God I am the rebellious type. I myself threw off the "brainwashing" of the Catholic Church, which was deeply ingrained into my psyche. I only pray that someday my son will wise up and do the same.

There is so much hatred against Scientology.
Some say that selling wisdom is wrong. Christianity has done that for centuries. setting the burden for donations, and rewarding those who did generosely with attention, even absolution.
Is it about having faith, or having a 'wrong' faith. Whatever we believe, faith is something we cannot stop. Should we judge so easily?

As for the eager rants again Tom Cruise. He has a vboice, a vision and he has his idea's and insights. Some think they are right, some think different. There is nothing against critical looks and comments, but these personal attacks against Tom and Scientology seems to reflect fear and loathing, not wisdom.
Those who are wise will move on and harness their faith in the believe that they hold to be true.

Just Some Truth wrote:
"The problem with scientology is that they are a soul destroying cult."
Geez, if the Church of Scientology is a "soul destroying cult", then the Southern Baptists must be the anti-Christ, a bad hair day, and the Devil all rolled into one!!!
I'm no follower of Scientology, but I gotta say their "religion" makes a lot more sense than the Baptists or some of the Fundamentalist sects that produce Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertsen....but it seems that extremely hypocritical, self-righteous, fundamentalist religions are "in" right now...

I can't speak about todays "scientology", but in the 1970's, it was nothing more than a pyramid scheme, and the base buy-in price was $7,000. You may be able to archive the old San Diego Tribune from 1978 and check out some documents they really, really didn't want exposed. F'em. I am not a religious person, but scientology has nothing whatsoever to do with religion or faith, and it never has. Period.

There are several cults claiming the status of church that will reveal truths for a fee.

Prominent among these cults is Mormonism.

E.g., you may be schooled in the temple only for a minimum 10% of your income.

Perhaps those on the poverty line (minimum living standard equals or is greater than income before temple fees)are cut a special deal.

Can any of our Mormon readers inform us?

The result is that poor people need not apply apply for membership.

Church? Cult?

Providence

If the Internal Revenue Service, a branch of the United States Government, declares Scientology to be a religion, who is any lesser mortal to dispute it? Seriously, though, the organization calls itself a religion, and has fanatics just like regular religions do. They sue at the drop of a hat. They have crackpot ideas that they defend vigorously. It does something its adherents value. I wouldn't put my soul into their hands. Others would. Belief is a matter of faith. Why give a tax break to the Methodists and not to the Scientologists?

UFO aliens recycling our souls whilst driving nuclear powered DC-10s. No more exciting than a zombie that was his own father wanting you to eat his flesh.

You can't take "professional skeptics" like Shermer very seriously. They are to rationality (or irrationality) what Jon Stewart's Daily Show is to the news. In other words, they are making a point in a highly entertaining way, but the deeper philosophical analysis of what they are talking about doesn't enter into their diatribes. Shermer's writing displays a very shallow view of what religion is about in human experience. He does not seem to recognize any spiritual dimension to life at all. This leads him to write things about religions that seem silly to anyone who actually knows something of the subject. So he's writing about something of which he deliberately is ignorant. Sounds like what Shermer would write about a fundamentalist christian. And it's true both ways. Spirituality is REAL. As real as cabbages. Get over it. The most rabid fundamentalist who can fix his car knows more science and technology than a skeptic talking head who won't examine religion because he knows in advance there's nothing there to find. Come on guys...get it together for Jesus and Darwin, who are best pals...if and when Shermer "gets to Heaven" St. Peter will open the big book and say, "My God, Mike, you lived an entire lifetime on that crazy planet without any religion? You poor guy, come on in and join the party..."

I'll tell you one more thing. They had some very good looking girls that would come on to you to get you into the van. I was young and horny and was suckered into the van. I am sure someone in the hierarchy actually was tapping those biaches for all they were worth. When I realized it was a dead end, I wanted out of the building asap.

Sort of off topic, but since there are many evolutionists here I have a question: If humans have a soul or spirit and animals do not, as is commonly accepted, how did the spirit/soul in humans "evolve" from our ancestors?

I actually spotted myself waving my sign at the Feb 10th protest. Just search on Youtube for "Overture 1002" and check me out at 1:43.

The Church of Scientology should be very proud to have such enemies : anonymous cowards, costumed protesters and a "scientist who studies belief systems for a living". Washbrained lately ?

Quite frankly, its all simply a rich joke. Cruise is nothing more than an uneducated rich joke and a controller. Poor Katie. The bright ones left him. Scientology, just a rich joke and cult. They love the rich stars. Its no wonder. One has to consider Hollywood for what it is....rich but not entirely well planted psychologically. Actually, they are in need of anti-depressants and anti-anxiety agents. A reality pill or two wouldn't hurt either. Narcissistic. We do not see the well grounded artists flocking to the cult.

And no, I am not railing against them because they are rich. I am too. So what.

In 1967, the IRS stripped all US-based Scientology entities of their tax exemption, declaring Scientology's activities were commercial and operated for the benefit of Hubbard.

The church sued and lost repeatedly for 26 years trying to regain its tax-exempt status. The case was eventually settled in 1993, after the church paid over $12 million to the IRS and the IRS once again recognized the church as a tax-exempt nonprofit organization.

Scientology also secured a deal through endless litigation which gives them preferential treatment to any other religion. Specifically, they receive an extra deduction for "training" their adherents.

A Jewish couple is attempting to secure the same deduction through the courts: http://www.nysun.com/article/70957?page_no=1

The issue is not religious bigotry or the relative merits of a private belief system. It is the systematic abuse of the legal system to the detriment of other Americans by a corporate entity with extremely deep pockets.

The Church of Scientology should be very proud to have such enemies : anonymous cowards, costumed protesters and a "scientist who studies belief systems for a living". Washbrained lately ?

The Church of Scientology should be very proud to have such enemies : anonymous cowards, costumed protesters and a "scientist who studies belief systems for a living". Washbrained lately ?

TO SCIENTOLOGY AND JOSEVZ ARE CRAZY,

Now! Don't tell me that your REAL name is Joe, or else it is I who am going to go crazy!

Dan wrote:

"He does not seem to recognize any spiritual dimension to life at all." (Shermer)

You obviously haven't read much of Shermer. He explains at length his spirituality, and how it's a part of the human experience. Carl Sagan also did a number of works on this subject. The only difference is that an atheist feels spirituality without actually believing in "spirits"... intangible, immaterial ghost type things. We recognize it more as awe or hope. But certainly it exists.

GEORGE IN ALASKA, the idea that "humans have a soul or spirit and animals do not" is NOT commonly accepted. It makes no sense. What makes you imagine it? Animals have beautiful spirits, souls, whatever you choose to call it. What separates us from animals is our different not greater abilities. Song birds that have had numbered bands put around a leg have proved that, after flying 2000 miles to the American South for the winter, they return to Canada to the exact nest in the same tree they lived in before. I couldn't do that without a map, could you? Reportedly not one free animal died in the tsunami that killed tens of thousands of humans a few years ago, because all, except those penned in, ran to higher ground well ahead of the waves. Why would God NOT give animals what we call a soul?

I haven't read through all of these posts but does anyone have any concise synopses of what Scientology is? Ive seen the revolting Tom Cruise video and read all of the media reports but I would be really interested in a summary of what this "religion"/cult is.

Thanks

TO TOM CRUISE,

I ain't got no intention of coming to Hollywood, even if you paid for my plane ticket and board and lodging for the same reasons that (i) Economists like myself but named Archibald and Lipsey choose to write a book on relatively simple college-level Mathematics which they title "Mathematics for Actresses" and (ii) I chose not to even open a blog where another actor named (what's his name former husband of Cindy Crawford -- that's how much esteem I have for actors other than Sean Penn and his category of performers) wrote about Buddhism (not that I don't have enormous respect for Buddhism, but the actor's understanding of Buddhism!).

However, I invite you, Tom, to read my posting above timed at 8:11 p.m. as well as the entry in wikipedia under dianetics.

Brambleton:

I said nothing about what churches do with their income. That is certainly up to them. But income is income, regardless of how it is collected, and should be taxed. And my argument about our tax bills being higher because churches do not pay taxes is sound; it is based on simple arithmetic.

JOHNG1, please don't regret your five minutes taken to post, because what you wrote speaks for multitudes and may spare others, and I for one, of many, appreciate your strong point.

SCIENTOLOGY AND JOSEVZ ARE CRAZY,

Under a different blog (about the Archbishop of Canterbury's Musings About Sharia), I invited the moderators to either stop posting JOSEVZ's comments or have him locked, and Joe (who had been signing under different names to provoke my respect for spiritualism and religion (but not necessarily under an anthropic construct and insulting me in the most hateful way) suddenlt agreed with me and wrote "At least on this we see eye to eye" I responded " Thanks, let's build on this". Then when, on another thread, I defended Islam ( the religion into which I was born but which until now, even after trying very hard for 45 years to rationally find fault with -- but, I repeat, interpreting the religion in its REAL transcendental, not anthropic, sense), Joe balsted me in a tone that made me think that, id he could lay his hands on me, he'd happily kill me if he could get away with it.

That's why I could have gone crazy if YOU were Joe, and that's why I thank goodnes you are not Joe.

Have a good night and God bless you!

I was invited by a friend to a 'party'. Well, surprise, surprise it was a friendly trick by my little Scientology friend who decided that my wife and I were worthy recruits.

The same trick was used many years ago when I went to my first Amway meeting in my Cousin's house.

The big difference was that the Scientologists did not try to sell me a box of dishwashing detergent or twenty four toothbrushes. Otherwise they both spruiked unpalatable junk.

The Scientologists told me that it was and was not a religion. Because I am simple-minded I had trouble with the contradiction.

There was a big TV screen. I got to watch lots of well-groomed gushing smiles that dashed around the place in private jets tell me that psychology is evil. To make matters worse they gave me a book, which read like a sci-fi, and when I questioned its claims and said that I didn't read drivel several people wanted to debate my views. It wade all the more nauseating because their smiling faces would not stop staring at me.

I raised a number of arguments that ran counter to their beliefs and I had the temerity to defend myself. Unfortunately, they ran around to look for clever people who knew how to handle rejects like myself. But I was uncooperative and I refused to back down. In fact, I was rude by insisting that I was right and they were wrong even though they had picked that line before me.

Never again.

I don't care what you call it (though money scam seems most appropriate), but please revoke the 501(c) status for this so-called "church." Go back and read the early tax cases -- the federal courts repeatedly found that the organization was a front created for the purpose of enriching Hubbard. The millions that were siphoned directly to him were astounding. The organization only prevailed after relentlessly stalking the individual IRS agents assigned to the case. Tax them to the nines, please.

What I love about Scientology is that it demonstrates perfectly how a bizarre unrealistic story can be accepted as reality and made into a religion in a fairly short period of time. As he has recently shown, Tom Cruise's conviction for his chosen religion is equal to any. We are witnessing the birth of religion in real time.
The only difference between Scientology and other religions is that we actually know who the science fiction author is.

I think Scientology is misusing copyright law, non-profit organization law and first amendment law.

Copyright law was not created to keep intellectual property “secret” and unused. In general property law bestows ownership rights to those who are willing to USE the property to generate more goods for the society (putting it in the marketplace to buy or rent). Intellectual property rights, and specifically copyright rights, were designed to reward those who put intellectual property to use in the marketplace or incorporate it in products that are put in the market place. Copyright law gives intellectual property creators a device by which they can earn money (commercialize) ideas, communications and intangibles and thereby encourages them to not keep the intellectual property secret but instead distribute it so all of society benefits. Scientology hasn’t copyrighted its work to recapture creation costs or make a profit; they copyright to limit distribution of their message to the already indoctrinated. They do so in an attempt to cause the indoctrinated to take actions which effect the public good and public safety, while keeping the not-yet indoctrinated and those critical of their views from publicly debating the validity of the ideas and actions being advocated. Scientology isn’t willing to sell rights of distribution to gawker.com at any price. They’re trying to hoard and worse yet hide ideas and information which the public would benefit from knowing. That’s not the kind of behavior that Congress should be rewarded by granting a property right. If Scientology isn’t willing to distribute their ideas to everyone for an asking price that’s reasonably similar, they shouldn’t be allowed to own their communications. If you’re going to insist you don’t want to share your speech for free, then sell your speech or SHUT UP; but don’t say you’re offering your speech for sale and then refuse to sell it.

Scientology’s also abusing tax exempt status protections. It’s true that many organizations which appreciate tax exempt status try to make money – churches, insurance companies, museums, etc. all charge for services and pay good wages. But tax exempt status is given because the organization is identified as creating good for society. Because churches exists, there are places people can openly debate what is ethical and virtuous, and associate with people of like vision. While open sharing sometimes opens them to scrutiny by the non-faithful, it benefits everyone because ideas about ethics and virtue become discussed by society as a whole. If Scientology is not allowing their ideas about ethics and virtue to reach the marketplace of ideas, if scientology is attempting to influence the thoughts and actions of its faithful while avoiding scrutiny by the non-faithful, its not benefiting the public as a whole and shouldn’t appreciate non-profit status.

There’s even some question as to whether they should appreciate first amendment protection. Groups are given first amendment protection only ideas are shared and the nature of the ideas are to cause societal discussion about manifesting the greater good. Commercial speech, speech designed to generate profit, is not protected from government censorship. Movie makers censor themselves (the rating system), but government reserves the right to create decency laws and step in if the industry doesn’t sufficiently self police. If scientology is copyrighting its communications, isn’t it declaring that its communications are commercial speech rather than first amendment speech? Shouldn’t that make their speech subject to governmental censorship?

This has nothing to do with the First Amendment.

This has nothing to do with the First Amendment.

I’ve been a Scientologist since 1992 after reading Dianetics about a year earlier and then taking a course about Scientology. It is a different religion than the Roman Catholic Church where I was once an altar boy. There is no worship, no praying, no dogma you must have faith in. There is no holy prophet leading the way.

But it is a religion. Even more spiritual than 2000 years of Christianity. I’m not kidding either. In Sunday School we were taught that “we had a soul” and that when we died, if we were good, it would go to Heaven. Well in Scientology, you find out that you don’t “have” a soul. You ARE your soul. Or to put it better, you are really a spiritual being. Now I know that sounds heavy or hard to get. See there it one more difference between Scientology and other religions, nothing is to be taken on faith. Absolutely nothing. One of Scientology’s primary tenants is, “What is true for you is true.” To state it bluntly, in Scientology it gets PROVEN to you that you are a spiritual being. I don’t mean that someone uses logic or argues some esoteric point to get you to agree that you are a spirit or you have to believe it because Hubbard says so. No, as you study Scientology and give it a try, you will suddenly be aware just how much of a spiritual being you really are. You will REALLY KNOW that you ARE a spiritual being.

It is a wild ride I’ll tell you that. Its not mysterious or secret. Its very simple. Just studying Scientology most people realize that there is really something to it. That it speaks to them. It does because its true.

Oh, and all the talk about how much it costs. It doesn’t have to. I’ve known people who have been in Scientology for years and have spent very little on it. Its books and lectures can be found in most libraries and many courses can taken for very little or even for free. You can even work on staff and get all your services for free. The costs of the books and lectures covers the cost to produce them. The monetary cost is small compared to the data contained in them.

I have to laugh at those who say that such knowledge should be free. How? Who will pay to make the books? Who will store them for free? Who will ship them for free? Who will provide the free paper and CDs?

And like every other religion, many Scientologist’s have donated a lot of money to make the material freely available to all. We donate to libraries, to schools, and to individuals. We donate to have translations and for distribution to other lands. So the materials ARE free to those who seek it.

What about those expensive Scientology services? Well, there too many people get them for free. I have received quite a lot for free. And as my fortunes have improved I’ve decided to pay for my services and I’m quite happy to do so.

Some people just can’t accept that something can really help people. They have been betrayed with false offers of help for so long that they just can’t believe its possible.

Its not magical or mysterious. Just stuff that really, really works.

It has been an adventure!

IN 1908 a book called "The Word" was published containing 3 references to Scientology, it meant pseudo-science!

Hypnosis Works (hides symptoms so they die young)

Electricity Works (E-meter)

Scientology is a FRAUD

This blog is a waste of time. OSA is just going to keep dancing around the true issues and try to keep the spotlight on religion and 1st amendment. The Ides of March will not be about religion. They will be about the true fraud and abuse the RTC and David Miscavige are guilty of.

EXPECT US.

read the other side of the story at XENU.NET

I lived in a house once owned by a Scientologist, and got his "church" (cult) mail. It is NOT a church. It's a scam. His story was similar to the one above by the father of a victim: Reading Dainetics on acid, he got convinced that he had found eternal truth, or something. He wound up signing away everything he would ever own for (no kidding) a billion years.

When I met him, he was a real case, looking right though you, unable to fully function any more. He lived essentially in a closet, spending all waking hours as a slave to whatever they wanted.

The literature keeps promising that one will achieve extradinary powers, including having "cause" over matter, travelling the Universe at will. But, despite many requests, and at least one concurrence, not one follower has materialized for me.

This is the saddest of the sad stories - it is blatently a money-making swindle taking those whose need to be special overwhelms their common sense.

I'd like to ask Charles what his level is, and how much his "adventure" has cost him.

I'll bet he doesn't tell the truth.

Scientology is ruthless. It sues its critics to silence them. It destroyed the Cult Awareness Network. They designate critics as "fair game" and then try to make their lives miserable. They are horrible, horrible people.

For those of us who believe freedom of religion is a great idea, I think the most effective and satisfying defense against religions that are perceived by the individual as "dangerous" is ridicule.

Hi, BRAMBLETON, as to how religion scapegoats Gays and nonbelievers for social ills, let me start with Gays, whose organized local efforts late last century to have the right to legal civil unions resulted in a nationwide coalition of conservative Christians, who cited the Bible as their authority in seeking to ban such unions, not just with laws, but with judgment-proof state constitutional amendments, on the grounds that encouraging Gay behavior through rights constituted "a clear threat to the social fabric of our society". Former US Rep Rick Santorum (R-PA), sponsor of a federal amendment to prevent the Supreme Court from overturning such state amendments, stood before the Congress with posters of graphs showing that since civil unions were legalized in Sweden late last century, the rate of marriage had declined and unwed motherhood rates had increased. The truth is that trend began decades prior to legal civil unions and furthermore the decline was less sharp since civil unions. No honest person denies those trends followed Swedish laws banning discrimination against women. (Santorum also said such an amendment would make us seem less decadent to Al Qaeda and would likely deter another 9/11!!)

As for nonbelievers, their successful efforts to see enforced the First Amendment, which US Courts have ruled prohibits the practice, nationwide until recently, of public schools teaching our children to believe in the Bible and quizzing them about their beliefs, has subsequently caused nonbelievers to be blamed by Christian ministers, in the press and from the pulpit, for school shootings, teen drug abuse, disrespect for law and authority, the declining rate of marriage, crime in general, and yes, terrorism. Specific illustrations of such scapegoating are abundant in the MSM in the last ten years but don't want to exploit your attention by belaboring my point. I appreciate your asking.

Scientology=evil

I think Scientology is getting more attention than it deserves. I was begening to get interested in it because I came to know it exists. And I saw Mr Cruise talk about it with enthusiastically.

I am a Christian (converted from a very different religion). I am convinced that for me trying to look some where else for truth and quick fixes is a waste of my limited time on earth.

If the Scientologist believe they have found enlightenment so be it. If they wanna know about Christainity seek Jesus.

I had a back injury from a freak accident in India. The doctors wanted me to layoff lifting weights for the rest of my life. I was all prepared to live with the back pain for the rest of my life.

My back was miraculously cured in a Church in Ohio after I had become a Christian. Now, in my mind I did not expect my back to be cured. Scientologists talk about brainpower. I had givenup and accepted my condition but I was given a second chance not by reading books or following some mind changing ritual. There is a power that is not within us.

Why should libertarians protest the protesters of Scientology? Surely they have every right to picket and speak out about a cult -- any cult: Catholic, Muslim, whatever. That, too, is a constitutionally guaranteed right. Ask the victims of Roman Catholic priests, or the victims of televangelizing swindlers. As for the issue with the IRS, that is easily solved by ending all tax exemptions for religious institutions. As long as cults are accorded exemptions problems of definition will arise, and government, through the legislative function, will have to starting defining what is and is not religion and worship and the free exercise thereof. (I suppose, however, that human sacrifice will still be proscuted as murder). If there is no religious exceptionalism, then there will be no entanglement. So tax 'em all, and put an end to this absurd discussion.

"Since IP law is passed by the government, the First Amendment is necessarily implicated for those who want to criticize Scientology."

They'll stick a lawyer on yer butt, but other than annoyance and/or bankruptcy it gets them nothing. Criticizing them is an example of "fair use."

Scientology is one of the more hilarious scams ever perpetrated. Truly, an "American" religion that would make Phineas T. Barnum proud.

It really does not matter what Scientology is. People are fee to choose whatever they want to believe and spend their time and money on. Just don't force your views on anyone else. To some people there is little difference between god and the tooth fairy, but to others they have defined much of the world around their belief in whatever deity or creator concept they choose. For anyone who believes in a so-called mainstream religion - your views are just as valid and as preposterous as any others. The one thing there is not enough of is acceptance. Live and let live.

For a more authoritative review than the Washington Post Jesus Section, please see: http://www.CultNews.com

Is one faith more or less legitimate than another? Does the endorsement of a celebrity lend credibility? When does a cult become a legitimate religious organization? Who knows?....
http://thefiresidepost.com/2008/01/16/mormon-scientologists-for-jehovah-on-the-7th-day/

First let me state that I am a non-practicing Jew who doesn't know much about Scientology but from the little I have read I don't like it much.

That being said I believe that anything that states it is a church should be granted church status. To quote (mis-quote) Stranger in a Strange Land, "Anything can be a church, An ice skating rink can be a church as long as some group states that ice skating is essential or desirable for the glory of G-D. If you can sing to his glory, you can also skate to it"

As far as church status goes, I don't believe that it should be treated by the government differently than any other business, i.e. tax exempt.

Any money that they take in should be taxed at the corporate rate.

I sometimes think that there is a special corner in hell reserved for the false prophets that took what what L. Ron Hubbard created as an intellectual exercise into a big business that promises tranquility based on positive Biofeedback. I often felt that Hubbard was deliberatly sequestered when he tried to recant, and disestablish Scientology. Then there is is matchup between the IRS and the Church of Scientology; a matchup between two legalist bullies; the result is still a draw.

Modern religions and modern churches are no more associated with God then a monkey is associated to man. The hypocrisy of the Christian churches and religions is on full display when they condemn Scientology.

Christian churches and religions and that include Muslims and Jews are collecting and spending huge sums of money arming themselves to the teeth so that they can kill each other, talk about insanity. These so called believers in God believe that it is OK to kill for country and religion.

The major objective of the Christian religion is to build a bigger mouse trap. The major objective of the Christian religion is to suck out as much money out of a duped population so that they can drive expensive cars and wear expensive clothes. God was forgotten and ignored by Christianity two thousand years.

Jesus once said that he came to earth to set it aflame, to turn brother, sister, mother and father against one another and he succeeded. Why did Jesus succeed? Jesus knew two thousand years ago what those who have not fallen for the insanity know now.

Man in his petty vain pompousness uses the word of Jesus to usurp the word of God. To break the Ten Commandment is to refuse God’s leadership. Killing because God killed places man in God’s position and it is not working.

Those boycotting Scientology should be boycotting them selves as well. From a proud liberal. END THE WAR IN IRAQ.

Is Vicki Iseman a scientologist?

"The problem with scientology is that they are a soul destroying cult. There is a difference between faith and brainwashing."

Really??? By definition, all religions require unconditional acceptance of its doctrines and practices, which cannot be rejected or even questioned. I fail to see the difference.

These protests have nothing whatsoever to do with the 1st Amendment, any other part of the Constitution, or any other part of U.S. law. Other posters have mentioned this is as well... while it was interesting to read about the protests and surrounding information, it was disappointing to realize that the "opinion" offered by the columnist didn't hold much water; the question she was trying to ask simply didn't apply. Next time, either stick with the facts and hope that sparks a conversation, or do the background research required to provide an informed opinion.

Jim,

The Christian faith is not about being wealthy or driving expensive cars. Maybe you feel that way because you can't separate the wolf from the sheep. I'm quite positive that if you stepped foot into your local church, you wouldn't come away with the same feelings. But that would require some effort now, wouldn't it? Easier to stereotype millions of people based on what the NY Times tells you about Jim & Tammy Baker.

Maybe we should all take your approach. Bill Clinton is a liar and adulterer, so I guess all men are the same?

well as everyone knows, Scientology is more of a business than a religion. it's like mediums, mystics, and the like. a bunch of mumbo-jumbo.

Tom Cruise

Let me try to sum up here. We have many who think Scientology is a cult and not a religion because they find it to be repulsive. Then we have the Smug Ones who believe that faith in anything (except their own cherished notions) is contemptible and that therefore all religions are "cults." Then we have the legalists who wish to instruct us about the constitutional proprieties. And there are even a few Scientologists out there!

Look, we have to face the fact that most Americans operate under the absurd presumption that no one has the right to tell us what to think or do, but that we have the right to tell others what to think or do, and that the political and legal systems can be used to enforce our notions on others. Seen in this light, one might say the following to the above four groups:

1) In the absence of real crimes that can be prosecuted, feelings of personal repulsion cannot dictate how others are treated by society as a whole. And criminalizing thoughts and beliefs is cheating.... and dangerous - before you know it, it might be yours that are criminalized.

2) Stop whining about the tax-exempt status of "cults" and organize one of your own - cash in! How's this for a name of your new religion: "The Church of the All-Knowing." Here's another one, " The Holy Fellowship of the Insufferably Superior."

3) The law IS important, but only as long as we can keep it from being the tool of those who would use it to compel belief or behavior, not protect it.

4) If you want protection from what you see as persecution, your group has to be scrupulous in protecting the integrity and autonomy of group members and non-members alike. Otherwise all bets are off in this society - and deservedly so!

Bud,

"By definition, all religions require unconditional acceptance of its doctrines and practices, which cannot be rejected or even questioned."

If that were true, then Christianity wouldn't have the number of denominations that is has today. For example, as a Baptist, I don't believe in infant baptism, but my Presbyterian brother-in-law does. We're both Christian and neither one of us believes that the other is going to Hell because of our belief in infant baptism.

Here is your homework assignment. Find a local church in your area, call the Pastor, and ask him if anybody ever questions Biblical interpretations.

For starters, this is a constructed cult. I say cult, becuase their tie is not to God, or a version of God, but to aliens and science fiction. As an athesist, I do not care for relgion in general, but understand that as social constructs religion and religious organization play a role in society and the personal lives of others, so I try not pass judgement, but in the case of Scientology, common sense kicks in and says "CULT". Does anyone rember the cult that believed in the mothership coming in with the Hale-Bop Comet? They believed in aliens just like Scientology.

Scientology is as much a religion as Christianity or Hinduism (and no I am not a scientologist).

People have a right to choose their spiritual practice....period! I find it funny that religious people tend to diss on other religions while demanding respect for their own.

If you believe in religious freedom for yourself then you are obligated to show a little respect for people who believe differently than you.

Recently, I have become a victim of unworthiness. See my net worth excludes me from love. There will be no trophy wife for this bum.

Now, maybe I could learn to fly a jet aircraft but what would I do with a license to fly ? Would I deliver smallpox vaccinations, fly politicians from point a to b or try to overcome the effects of transportation costs on the global war against poverty ?

In any event, I do have a right to take my meds.

The motivation for groups like Anonymous is understandable. Scientology pursues power and profit more nakedly than other religions, and Hubbard's dubious motives in starting the religion are well known. But I also agree that many religions' beliefs and practices may not be able to withstand the type of scrutiny that Scientology receives.

The First Amendment issue here is that the tax exemption on religious organizations puts the IRS in the awkward position of deciding what constitutes a religion. The IRS could just as easily comply with the First Amendment by lifting the exemption entirely. This would still treat all religions equally with no favoritism toward any one religion.

I’m a new critic of Scientology. It’s criminal organization that won its status as a religion by coercion and blackmail of public officials. L. Ron Hubbard was a con man and David Miscavige is a megalomaniacal tyrant. Germany is right in barring them from their country. We need to do the same thing here. Revoke Co$ tax privileges now. Xenu isn't real.

''Scientology is as much a religion as Christianity or Hinduism (and no I am not a scientologist).

People have a right to choose their spiritual practice....period! I find it funny that religious people tend to diss on other religions while demanding respect for their own.

If you believe in religious freedom for yourself then you are obligated to show a little respect for people who believe differently than you.''

I suggest you learn more about the Church of Scientology. It is responcible for HUNDREDS of deaths due to taking people off their ''evil'' medication, in some cases leading them to stab their own parents. People who disagree are subjected to torment by their ''fair game'' policy, meaning any Scientologist can spread lies about them, maim them or use R2-45 on them without being punished in a legal system, due to the Church's army of lawyers paid by brainwashed members' life savings.

This isn't avout religion or faith, it's about human rights. Learn more about the CoS, please.

While people are entitled to "believe" in anything, I do agree with "Toni in LA" that scientology should not be covered by the non-profit category. In addition, most mega-churches shouldn't either. I think we need to scrub what is considered a "religion" as defined by the law.

Maynard James Keenan says it best in the lyrics for the Tool song "Aenema".

Their tax exempt status should be revoked. They are a fake religion built on making money. Ever heard this phase?..."If you want to get rich in this country, all you have to do is start your own religion." First uttered by L. Ron Hubbard.

Brambleton,
I was born in the church. I was baptized because I wanted to be baptized. I unconditionally and willingly believe in God the Father, Jesus his Son and the Mother who I consider to be the Holy Spirit.

I am sixty five years old and attended churches for more years than most people have been alive. It with sadness that I came to the conclusion on what we call religion and church today. You come across as one of the disillusioned mass who thinks you can buy your way into heaven by fitting your pastor in linen.

One of Jesus’ first actions was to flush the vermin out of the church. I suspect that will once again be one of his first actions upon his return. As for those who consider themselves religious while condoning the invasion of Iraq that has cost thousands of lives or the death penalty the hatred of others like Scientologist will be the least of your worries. From a proud liberal. END THE WAR IN IRAQ.

The problem is not Scientology or any other religion as I see it.

The problem ultimately is ourselves, and the mind created fiction we call "ego". This is the little tyrant that lives in fear and convinces us of the need to be right on every topic or matter at hand, or we'll be diminished, or worst case perish.

It looks for a belief system to give meaning to its existence, and that promises its continuance in some fashion. If power or feeling special comes with the religion of choice, so much the better for the ego.

Transcending ego is the real invitation.

It is bad enough the degree to which we have religion in this country that is legalistic and materialistic but Scientology mimics religion in order to achieve the material gains of religion. It has adopted some of the symbols of religion, it has its own language to create cohesion and uniqueness but pays exceptional attention to "tithing". Watching their leaders wax indignantly about offenses to their "faith" is galling. They are a satire of religion if anything.

Any so called religion that 'charges' its members for participation or enlightenment is nothing more than a con.

Unfortunately for many people are too stupid to know they are being conned, robbed and fleeced, until they have been cleaned out.

This is one group I would not mind seeing the FBI go after as a criminal organization.

"God from above" - an expert's view on religion ?
Religion is personal. The First Amendment protects you from the experts defining it for you. The First Amendment also protects the cynics and clowns. The First Amendment is about freedom and choice. What you do with that freedom is .. up to you. You can even use it to slander religions teaching respect for yourself and others.

I grok Scientology to be a fraud, and LRH is not much of science fiction writer, Philip Dick or Clarke would have come up with such a better back story than the Xenu the warrior galactic federation leader.

Problem is in 20 years, none of the original scammers will be left alive, but their scam will keep on growing with true believers carrying it on.

Scamology,

If the charge was merely a "voluntary tithe" of 10% of your income, would that make it any less of a con?

Jim,

It saddens me to hear such pessimism from a follower of Jesus Christ. Perhaps God has put you in a place or with a congregation where you can create change. Granted, there are a number of members in my own church that would be considered "rich" by today's standards, but that isn't an indicator of their sprituality or their relationship with Christ. Some of these people that I know on a personal level give back tremendously to the church and the community.

As for me personally, I'm not quite sure how you determined that I am trying to "buy" my way to Heaven. There is only way to Heaven, and the Bible is explicit on that.

Rich blessings.

flakes, all of them

and suckers too.

We in America revere the Charismatic Con-artist.
to our own demise.
(see GWBush)

What idiot would believe the crud found in this 'religion'?

...someone being preyed upon by lechers.

Friends of Cyber-Space on HiLLARY For PREZ 2009:
Vote:
A*C*T*i*O*N!

Vote:
E*X*P*E*R*i*E*N*C*E!

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Better a CLINTON than OBAMA!!!!!!!
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PEACE, PAZ, SALAAM, SHOLOM:........_________________
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Clinton ACTION/EXPERiENCE:

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iMAGINE: Adding an additional 10 or 12 STATES to our current 50 STATES!

Yes, ALL of MEXiCO & CUBA!

Also iMAGiNE:

101 U.S.A. STATES all-the-way to PANAMA, where ironically John McCain was Born!??

iMAGiNiNE: No more reliance on Middle-East. Good Riddence OPEC. And more Prophetic Good-Tidings!

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Note: It is not a 'pipe-dream', IT is achievable. Ya Ya YO!

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VOTO: AMEND the Dynamic "American MONROE-DOCTRiNE" not Religion!

The Kabbalah Center is the next Scientology. Same pyramid scheme, same rich bastard charlatans at the top, same brainwashing, same pseudoscientific nonsense, same unbounded superstitious absurdities. It's tragic.

Scientology differs from religion in that religious people want to share their message with the world, in hopes that everyone can find enlightenment. You can find the Bible everywhere, even if you're not looking for it. The Book of Mormon, the Koran, even the Jehovah's Witnesses have their version of the Bible. Each group of devotees wants you to use their version because, well, everyone else's is wrong and if you listen to them you'll go to hell.

They all want you to read it and spread "the good word," at least whatever version of it they endorse. Religions, as well as most self-respecting cults, do not sue people for repeating their teachings, they encourage it.

That's the point of religion -- spreading your set of beliefs, because if everyone "got" it, the world would be perfect.

If you're a Christian, you don't have to be the Church Lady to arrive at the obvious conclusion to be drawn from a group that wants to be secret, with their teachings hidden from the outside world. Could it be...?

If you're an aetheist, unable to buy into the heaven and hell concept that the entire world seems to be convinced of, I'm thinking that tiny aliens from a volcano are going to be a little hard to swallow.

My personal opinion is that Scientology appears to be an exclusive club for rich people and Tom Cruise is the Grand Poobah. The admission fee and the alien gibberish is to keep out the riff-raff.

I don't like Scientology and its ways, and I believe it was created as a business, not a spiritual enterprise.

But as to its keeping things secret and charging initiates to move up the levels, that's been a feature of mystery religions/cults since at least the ancient Greeks.

I am flabbergasted at the inability, arrogance, knowledge base, and lack of doctrine to support some people opinions about faith.
What I hear and read is mere human opinions base on nothingness. The Church of Scientology is nothing more then another false organization of faith leading cult.
That is like the mindless gibberish I hear in social setting etc, where people exactly believe that they can be spiritual with out religious, which is ludicrous.
The true is that we all are spirit, but being spiritual without being a religious person is nothing. Allow me to elaborate; when you are just spiritual it is base on nothing, you have known doctrine to support your belief.
A religious and spiritual person daily living and knowledge base, is base on the word of God support by doctrine that supports your spirituality.
The Bible combines Scripture with the principles that guide people by applying the word of God to your daily living, so without the word of God, then your living your life on your own understanding or other wordily belief’s.
Furthermore, how are you going to learn about God, Jesus Christ, The Holy spirit, Church, fellowship, forgiveness, prayer, God’s will, and more?
You can believe in the propaganda of the word or you can learn and believe in the word of God.
I am for one comfortable in the word of God, and my faith, Christian Baptist belief and the direction my faith is leading.
It is hard for me to believe in the false doctrine and beliefs of mere men, organizations, and opinions.
I would never forfeit my honor to God, His son Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit, church and His word, for the false benefits of the world.
I believe anyone can choose to believe in whatever you base your life on, But what really matter at the end of your life, will be the result of that choice, when you stand before your maker.

Stay blessed, keep God first, and walk in victory!

All the posts comparing Scientology to other religions are red herrings. The issue Anonymous is protesting is the Church of Scientology's business and social practices. The fact or opinion that other organizations act the same way is irrelevant.

Watch interviews and confrontations with scientologists. They are incapable of logical argument. They'll always resort to telling what they call "acceptable truths" or attacking others (ad hominem). When critics publish damning internal CoS documents, the Scientologists first accuse the critics of lying, then when docs are revealed as true (like the OT3/xenu myth was revealed as legitimate after an FBI raid) they switch tactics and claim copyright infringement. They throw lawyers and money at critics while investigating them "noisely" and publically attacking them with anything they dig up. They do the same against anyone who tries to help. They even manufacture evidence against people (google Operation Freakout). Note that during scientology "auditing", scientologists reveal the skeletons in their closets and that information is written down and saved. Anyone who leaves scientology and speaks out against them is attacked and the CoS starts off well-armed. People are right to be critical of this "religion", and anyone who is well informed about them who isn't critical is likely getting paid by them or afraid to speak out, or already under court injunction. Those that are neutral to them either don't care (which is fine - we all need to pick our battles), or need to do some more research.

Quote from Hubbard, "Attacks on Scientology", HCO Policy Letter of 15 Feb 1966
"Attackers are simply an anti-Scientology propaganda agency so far as we are concerned. They have proven they want no facts and will only lie no matter what they discover. So BANISH all ideas that any fair hearing is intended and start our attack with their first breath. Never wait. Never talk about us - only them. Use their blood, sex, crime to get headlines. Don't use us.
I speak from 15 years of experience in this There has never yet been an attacker who was not reeking with crime. All we had to do was look for it and murder would come out.

They fear our Meter. They fear freedom. They fear the way we are growing. Why?

Because they have too much to hide."

The "church" of $cientology has made a point of setting itself apart from the other religions of this world by its venal use of deception in order to get people involved in it and it's use of the legal system to silence any critics by using lawsuits as a constant bludgeon against any who dare criticize it.
If people would inform and educate themselves about this cult and it's criminal acts (Google operation snow white and operation freakout) and bring pressure to bear on our representatives to investigate this group they would be forced to clean up their act.

"I think Scientology is misusing copyright law, non-profit organization law and first amendment law. "

Said opinion would carry a lot more weight if you actually knew something about copyright law, non-profits and the First Amendment. But your argument shows that you don't:

"Copyright law was not created to keep intellectual property “secret” and unused. In general property law bestows ownership rights to those who are willing to USE the property to generate more goods for the society (putting it in the marketplace to buy or rent). Intellectual property rights, and specifically copyright rights, were designed to reward those who put intellectual property to use in the marketplace or incorporate it in products that are put in the market place."

It sounds like you're confusing copyright law with patent law, among other problems. Anyway, suffice it to say that copyright law is exactly that: the right to control who can make copies of your speech. Moreover, it's not an effective way of keeping things secret: it doesn't prevent people from quoting your material for purposes of review and criticism, and you have to disclose exactly what it is that you're copyrighting in order to get the copyright in the first place. All it does is prevent others from redistributing your work wholesale.

"Because churches exists, there are places people can openly debate what is ethical and virtuous, "

Doesn't sound like most churches I know. They usually tend to be less of a debate, and more of a... what's the word... sermon.

"If Scientology is not allowing their ideas about ethics and virtue to reach the marketplace of ideas,"

Funny, I thought they sold Dianetics nationwide. I also seem to recall tv ad campaigns for it, and celebrities like Tom Cruise are out stumping for the Church all the time. It's strange that so many arguments against Scientology are premised on them being a totally closed society, while the rest complain about them being overly aggressive in trying to spread their ideas.

"Commercial speech, speech designed to generate profit, is not protected from government censorship."

Well, not AS protected as non-commerical speech anyway (which itself has limits as well).

"Movie makers censor themselves (the rating system), but government reserves the right to create decency laws and step in if the industry doesn’t sufficiently self police."

Laws limiting obscenity have nothing to do with the distinction between commercial and non-commercial speech.

"If scientology is copyrighting its communications, isn’t it declaring that its communications are commercial speech rather than first amendment speech?"

No. In fact, the only way to ensure that your speech isn't commercialized by someone else is to copyright it. To exclude copyrighted material from First Amendment protection would be tantamount to repealing the First Amendment.

"Shouldn’t that make their speech subject to governmental censorship?"

By the way, this is a non-sequitur. You just finished complaining about how they don't distribute their speech enough, and now you're proposing that the government prevent them from distributing it?

Anyway, I'm still waiting to hear a reasoned, rational criticism of Scientology's status. I've heard plenty of decent criticisms of their tenets and practices (which is easy enough to do with any religion, let along this one), but all of the arguments for changing their status have struck me as profoundly dishonest and hypocritical. Hate Scientology all you want, but don't insult the rest of us by pretending your position is all logic and dispassion. This propensity to use the levers of state power to persecute rival faiths is abhorrent, and is exactly what the First Amendment was intended to prevent in the first place.

Being too smart/skeptical to go in for Scientology's claptrap is a good thing. Using the government to persecute them so that you'll feel less insecure about the claptrap your religion peddles is a bad thing.

David Miscavige's mother-in-law, "Flo" Barnett, died from four rifle shots, three to the chest and one to the head. Originally classified as a "suicide," upon closer inspection it was determined from the ballistics and the height of Ms. Barnett that the wounds could not have been self-inflicted. Evidence was collected that just one week prior to her death, Ms. Barnett had threatened to sue the Church, and was in contact with David Mayo, a former member who was an avowed enemy of David Miscavige.

Furthermore, one of David Miscavige's sisters had committed suicide after completing OT VII. Another sister left the church and became a prostitute after starting the OT levels. David Miscavige's own father was once arrested for rape.

Lets' face it. It hain't the Holy Family.

"All the posts comparing Scientology to other religions are red herrings. The issue Anonymous is protesting is the Church of Scientology's business and social practices. The fact or opinion that other organizations act the same way is irrelevant."

Why is that irrelevant? Shouldn't we condemn all religions and organizations that follow the same despicable business and social practices? Anonymous is exactly right in bringing Scientology's heinous practices to light. My concern is that such a narrow focus may unintentionally give credence to Scientology's false claim that Anonymous has a personal vendetta. Any organization that acts as Scientology does deserves condemnation.

The issues being discussed are unbelievably full of vitriolic comments.

Scientologists deserve the same rights and treatment as others in society. The problem with the Anonymous attack is that it is not free speech but hate speech. Threats to assassinate the President of the Church, threats to "dismantle" the Church, bomb threats, fake food orders which hurt merchants who unknowingly attempt to deliver huge orders, nasty prank phone calls etc. This is not the behavior of intellectual discussion and debate.

My religion works for me and has helped me greatly in my life. We work extensively for human rights around the world, work to improve education, promote drug-free living and educate children and teenagers about the dangers of illegal drugs, and help prisoners to look at their lives and work out how to survive once they leave prison. These are the works of people who care about the world around them and their fellow man. If you do not like our beliefs it is very, very simple. Don't become a Scientologist!!!

Those who find it works for them and improves their lives should be free to continue to follow the religion.

If this type of assault and harassment was occuring to a Jewish synagogue there would be international news condemning it. To quote Rodney King "Why can't we all just get along?"

It costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to go clear, the state which Scientology claims holds the ability to be free from disease, have mind over matter powers, along with other highly fanciful notions. Jason Beghe pointed out in his interview after his recent departure that this state of being for the entire planet simply isn't possible. There isn't enough money in the world for everyone to pay for the courses required to go clear. Scientology doesn't care about the poor. Only the rich. I wonder why.

"Those who find it works for them and improves their lives should be free to continue to follow the religion."

And those who wish to LEAVE should be allowed to do so without interrogation, without kidnapping, without imprisonment and without any of their other CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS being violated. No one is attacking your FAITH here Sylvia. If you would read the comments you'd realize that they are calling for REFORM of the corrupt organization which lies to you. Christians and Atheists alike had the right to protest teh Pope and ask him about child molesting priests. Anonymous has every right to point out the corruption in your faith's leaders as well.

Welcome to America, Freedom of Speech works both ways.

Slyvia

Please show proof of any of your claims. Anonymous has not threatened any of the church leaders or buildings.

as a brilliant lawyer once said: If the glove does not fit you must aquit. well this glove certainly doesnt fit.

About 50 years ago, L. Ron Hubbard believed he had tapped into all the “great minds of the Universe,” which would give him the ability to invent dozens of revolutionary technological devices that would transform mankind. And then he invented -- drum roll please -- the e-meter.

But wait, lie detectors had already been invented, and the e-meter is just a shoddy, insensitive version of a lie detector’s ability to measure galvanic skin response. The e-meter doesn’t also measure pulse, respiration or blood pressure as do modern lie detectors.

But combined with L. Ron Hubbard’s psychobabble hypno-brainwashing technique (reworked from Freud, other psychotherapy and hypnosis, including Satanic rituals), he claimed the e-meter could free a person of all their fears, traumas, and ills and also increase their IQ.

John Travolta and Tom Cruise are examples of the intellect made titanic through Scientology. Both are high school dropouts who are hard pressed to speak in complete sentences without a script. I challenge either to pass a GED exam.

Not only could this therapy claim to cure insanity, or make "the sane saner," it could also be used to regress, at first, to the time of birth, but Hubbard was brilliant enough to discover that extended sessions could be used for people to explore any number -- pocketbook permitting -- of past lives.

Fifty years later -- blast from kazoo orchestra please -- Scientology has brought us, the e-meter, again. Yup, basically the same one they used back then.

Where is the cure for cancer, or the "briefcase-sized frequency pulsating oscillator" device that could cure an institutionalized insane person in two seconds?

Their answer: You won't get cancer, or be insane, if you are a "Scientologist." And, smoking cigarettes can help in fighting a number of diseases that afflict the human organism, as possessed by evil body Thetans in the spirit of Xenu…

Let's face it, Sylvia and the other Scientologists among us will never face or admit the truth. In order to be a victim of a cult you much first suspend your ability of critical thinking and believe everything cult leaders tell you. Nothing but the tenets of the "church" are factual...ever.

That she, and others, who belong to a religion which tells its followers that lying to non-believers isn't only OK but often necessary speaks volumes about their morality. A morality that is dictated by this very destructive cult!

The lower income bracket is nothing but filth. Commoners are not worthy of enlightenment and should not be allowed to witness the real truth.

If you're homeless and abandoned, you should just shrivel up and die. Religion is too good for you. Pay for it or eat dirt.

The lower income bracket is nothing but filth. Commoners are not worthy of enlightenment and should not be allowed to witness the real truth.

If you're homeless and abandoned, you should just shrivel up and die. Religion is too good for you. Pay for it or eat dirt.