Comments (60)

My state of Vermont is first or second in the Union in the percentage of its population which is unaffiliated with any religion (Thanks be to God!).

In this we are following our Founding Father, Ethan Allen, who said:

[1] "While we are under the tyranny of Priests, it will ever be their interest to invalidate the law of nature and reason, in order to establish systems incompatible therewith."

[2] "In those parts of the world where learning and science has prevailed, miracles have ceased; but in those parts of it as are barbarous and ignorant, miracles are still in vogue."

[3] "I have generally been denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious I am no Christian, except mere infant baptism makes me one; and as to being a Deist, I know not strictly speaking, whether I am one or not."

[4] " ...The doctrine of the Trinity is destitute of foundation, and tends manifestly to superstition and idolatry."

[5] "That Jesus Christ was not a god is evident from his own words, where, speaking on the day of judgement, he says 'Of that day and hour, knoweth no man, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the son.' This is giving up all pretension to divinity, acknowledging in the most explicit manner that he did not know all things.

Opinions on our native hero have varied:

*** "There is an original something in him that commands admiration; and his long captivity and sufferings have only served to increase if possible, his enthusiastic zeal. He appears very desirous of rendering his services to the States, and of being employed; and at the same time he does not discover any ambition for high rank."

-George Washington, in a letter to the Continental Congress (May 1778)

*** "General Ethan Allen of Vermont died and went to Hell this day."

-Reverend Doctor Ezra Stiles, president of Yale College [[George Bush's Alma Mater], on learning of the death of Allen. Diary entry (12 February 1789)

*** "Passed by Ethan Allyn's grave. An awful Infidel, one of ye wickedest men ye ever walked this guilty globe. I stopped & looked at his grave with a pious horror."

-Rev. Nathan Perkins in his Narrative Of A Tour Through The State Of Vermont on 25 May 1789.

I imagine that some religious readers of On Faith will be inclined to tangle with General Allen.

I'd advise against it. He was a formidable figure.

See: http://www.waymarking.com/gallery/image.aspx?f=1&guid=b2ea2e0e-8422-47f9-ad20-29182b6e03bc

"Godless" does not mean that one is "not spiritual", it means that a person is intelligent enough not to believe in bronze-age fairy tales.

All Americans should give up religion and instead develop deep spirituality--there will be far less killing that way.

there were many soldiers in the Press Room and Secretary greeted the Army in English. and the words of President are selected and with hard pronunciation from His mouth.

and William Bush, President of USA, is talking about Turkey and Northern Iraq and these have been broadcasted for days.

the given time is two weeks, and Turkish Army does not like limits. but i think President and Secretary have something to say.

now this reminds me of equipment management or source management in software developing for companies and construction. USA provides with the intelligence, they know the region as they know their fingers.

well, i know the title is American religion and history of religions is the basement of education in USA. and here is where the Scriptural and History began, in Anatolia and Northern Iraq.

I would like to know what an atheist means when he or she uses the word, "God?"

Well, it looks like we have a nice, new spammer on our hands. Levent, is there any reason you choose to pump out posts that are rather unintelligible to a typical person here on these forums?

Godless Europe? are you waiting for Godot?
GO, DOT! YOU ARE A CIRCLE!

ben olsem de gam yemem, vurdursan da farketmez, isimi bitirdim zaten. senin cahilligin bitene kadar bu surecek Basbakan. sen ozur dileyene kadar surecek. kefenine siirimin ust kismini koyuncaya kadar surecek Basbakan. alt tarafi da bana kalsin.

I can only conclude from your 'godless European' comment that you have never been to Europe. There are government mandated church holidays and many people attend the church of their choice. So I would not qualify Europe as Godless. They also have seemed to manage a separation of church and state government.

The difference...the people don't go running through the streets shouting to everyone what a good Christian they are and what good a Christian nation they live in. These countries also help the poor and sick, many countries have not, in more recent times, started aggressive wars and have gone to aid and defend allies against aggression.

Hmmm. Wish we could be more like them.

serefsizsin lafini geri alirim da cahilsin be Basbakan. gerisi geliyor zaten.

git Vodafon'daki Macar CEO'ya sor Telsim'den gecerken gece saat onikiden sonra ne yapmislar, reklamlarinda Ipek Tuzcuoglu ile Mehmet Ali Erbil ne ariyormus. ya da kavgalin Uzanlara sor neler yapiliyor. Urdunden de sorustursan soylerler.

size HP bilgisayarlar verirler altiniza yaparsiniz. Rockefeller'den ogretmenleri okullari bilgisayarla donatirsiniz. Saroz ile petrol ararsiniz. CHP lideri de okudugu burs ile kalir orada, o kadar. sapkali kadinlar Meclisi basar. Ataturke celenk birakirlar da binanin mimarisi nedir bilmezler.

neden Basbakan? neden? gecekondu mahallesinde buyudun diye mi? yoksa okuduklarindan birsey anlamadin diye mi? kim ogretti ki sen bulasin* ogretildi de sen mi ogrenmedin? Etnografya Muzesine koysunlar tekrar daha iyi.

git Bilkent'ten birini cagir, git Turkcell'deki Microsoft uzmanini cagir. git ITU Ses Muhendisliginden birini cagir. seni Bursa'ya sokmam BAsbakan. agzindan cikan laflari kapali odalarda zannetme. isittirenler var.

sen asagilanirken biz seni yukari kaldiriyorduk. biz borca sokulurken ustumuze basanlara bagiriyorduk. sen ne yaptin BAsbakan?

sen gurlerken biz bir fisilti ile hareket ediyorduk. sen analarini aglatirken biz bir gulumseme ile goruyorduk.

"I doubt we'll become like those godless Europeans anytime soon."

My, you are a self righteous, smug American writer, aren't you? Do we have universal health care? Do we respect human rights? Do we fight wars of empire and occupation.

If we are "of God", give me the godless Europeans anytime. Voltair sound pretty good compared to this drivel.

istersen NASA'ya sor. Williams Bush, KArl Rove ile konus hatta. o hepsini bilir. Condaliza Rice da bilir. 1991 yilinda ve 2001 sonrasi buralarda neler oldugunu da bilir. ECHELON'u gelistirecek kafa var mi sende Basbakan? HAssasiyetle uzerine gidecek deri var mi sende? Kisa Kurek Gerek ama Rize nire Uludag nire?

sen Sarkozy yaninda kulagini cekecek kadar yukaridan bakarken, biz elektromanyetik dalgalarla yikiliyorduk, SArkozy tarafindan iskence goruyorduk.

Altay Turklerini bilirsen, Seytan'in Hocalardan Oldugunu da bilirsin. sunnet ile bekaretin ne oldugunu da bilirsin.

isterse VAtikan ve Papa Benediktus, adimizdan dolayi ve Dunya Ticaret Merkezi hakkinda sahislarina yazdiklarimizdan dolayi Erdogani, Putini ya da Sarkozyi kiralamis olsun. ya da Williams Bush kizi hakkinda yaziyoruz diye sorustursun.

PApa Benediktusun gelsini destekleyen benim kendisini taniyorum diye anlatan da benim. ayrica YAhoo ve diger yerlerde PApanin ziyaretinden dolayi Turklere karsi olusan ortami temizleyen de benim.

var mi bir itirazin? ama ben Abdullah Gul'un 500 Milyon Lirasini sormadim size. hatta siir yazdim bir de evliligini kutladim.

ayrica cesitli isaretleri bilirsen, Kuran'in Sirius'tan oldugunu da bilirsin. insanlik Gul ve Uzumle bilinen Yedi Kizkardesler Pleaides ile baslamisti. istersen Putin'e sor.

Suleyman'in Tapinagini kuranlar ve Dunya Tciaret Merkezini yikanlar var ya, iste esine dostuna arkadan yaklasanlar onlar.

Kuran'da ayrica babasi ve cocugu olmayan bir adamin mirasi nedir Basbakan? kizkardesinin olmasi ne demek? ayrica esinle arkadan iliskiye girmek haktir hukuktur. sen yapamazsin ama yapanlar bulunur.

Sevgi Guney odasina gittigimde kapiyi tam kapamamis acik birakmistim. neden acik biraktigimi sormustu ben de bir odada kendisiyle olmak istemiyorum demistim. o da bana Ben Sana Gul Bahcesi Vaad Etmedim kitabini vermisti. istersen mahkemeye vereyim?

ayrica TRT Genclik Korosu'na secildim ve TRT Coksesli Korosu'nda soyledim Mustafa Apaydin ve Elnara Kerimova ile, Hikmet Simsek ile Rengim Gokmen de kurulda vardi. Izmir Efes'te konser vermistik. Bilkentliler de vardi.

Gee willikers. Am I the only one out here who recognized she was using a sardonic,joking tone with the reference to "godless?" It's a stylistic device, readers. Lighten up.

Gee willikers. Am I the only one out here who recognized she was using a sardonic,joking tone with the reference to "godless?" It's a stylistic device, readers. Lighten up.

HAcettepe psikoloji bolumunde bir ogretim gorevlisi bana adresini vermisti Ankara universitesinde. TRT 2'de gece gec saatte Ankara'da yatili olmak konulu programa cikmistik birlikte. sunucusu jazz ve klasik muzik yayini yapar hala.

BAsbakan

Ege Universitesi'nden mezun Avustralyada master yapmis, Ankara Universitesi'nde psikolog Sevgi Guney'in PKK kurucu kadrosu Doktorlarin birinin sevgili karisi oldugunu anlattim.

ben PKK ile ilgili degilim. bildiklerimi anlattim. kardesi Seven Guney ODTU biyoloji mezunu ve MArmara Universitesinde master yapti genetik ve mikrobiyolojide. ikizi Sevilen istatistikci ve kocasi Koc Arcelik'te Eskisehir'de calisiyordu, 1997 civari.

I'm a Virginian living over here in Europe the last 10 years. I would highly suggest that Ms. Hoffman come over here and see how these "godless" societies function... Had she done so, she might have then used the word "tolerant" instead. We Americans would be best advised in pouring our energy and “vitality” into improving our own nation (Katrina aftermath, anyone?), perhaps using best practices from abroad (secularism for example), instead of constantly insulting the Europeans. Such banter is unproductive and exposes a certain insecurity amongst ourselves.

So does godless mean not as superstitious? I can buy a rabbit's foot that will work as well as any religion. Organized religions are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

There is one extraordinary line in this column. It is so jarring that I hope the author does a new column on it. After noting the rise in Americans who say they are unaffiliated with any particular religion, she says:
"Fickle to a particular faith yes, but fickle to faith in general would be a new era for the U.S. That's the number to keep watching. I doubt we'll become like those godless Europeans anytime soon."

Whoa! The double assumption (and two-step verbal transfornmation) is that lack of denominational affiliation means first a lack of faith and then ultimately "godlessness" - a denial of God.
That is simply a staggering statement. I do not think either step in it is defensible. Surely there are people outside denominations who have a defined faith and surely there are people outside denominations who believe in God.
It betrays a bias towards institutionalized religion (which is fine - we all have baises) which is so deep that she cannot imagine God outside an institutional structure and, presumably, a detailed theology.
This puts the car so far in front of the horse as to be invisible.
I would love to hear her take on this.

Thomas Paine despised religion, especially Christianity, and he so wrote.

"the lack of real knowledge of faith that leads them to flaunt their atheism like a badge of superiority. Both are obnoxious and bigoted."

There is nothing wrong with being bigoted with respect to ignorance and what could you call a belief in a sky daddy other than ignorant. Belief is never necessary.

The first amendment protects religion from government and government from religion. Without it religion would have died a long time ago in the US.

What is trending of us toward "godless Europe" is the imposition of Christianity into spheres where it's legally prohibited for the sake of our democracy. Born in the Middle East, Christianity grew up to become a tyrant in Europe, where every nation has its bloody record of innocents killed, often with the utmost cruelty, for merely disagreeing with The Church. Europeans do not share our delusion that religion is a benign force. As for their being godless, that's only one god fewer than we have at most, albeit more than we need.

Very telling:

"Nearly half of Hindus in the U.S., one-third of Jews and a quarter of Buddhists have obtained post-graduate education, compared with only about one-in-ten of the adult population overall. Hindus and Jews are also much more likely than other groups to report high income levels."

Godless in Texas? You must live in Austin.

Politically conservative in a libertarian way? Not in Texas (Austin was forced to secede from Texas - they could't relate to Tom Delay and the other like him.

There are more of us than you'd think. US Westerners, particularly of the Southwest and Rocky Mountain variety, aren't really all that godly. Politically conservative in a libertarian way, yes; religiously obsessed, no.

And no, "godless" doesn't strike me as at all offensive.

Chuck said "It wasn't the 'godless' who got us into Iraq, and it wasn't the godless who blindly supported it."

Quakers ring a bell? How about Tolstoy? Or maybe the Big Cheese himself:

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. [44] But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.

....And we're supposed to blame religion for the Crusades? Let's instead blame the lack of thought with which people misinterpret their religions, or conversely, the lack of real knowledge of faith that leads them to flaunt their atheism like a badge of superiority. Both are obnoxious and bigoted.

Confusing the idiocy of adherents with the message itself is simply poor schooling. Back to your books indeed--learn basic causality before you confuse the agent of responsibility here pal.

An anonymous person above said, "This author nicely encapsulates why so many are running away from standard religion. Those "godless Europeans" watched themselves self-destruct under the weight of an irrational belief system for two thousand years. This Us versus Them stuff is juvenile and counterproductive. The unaffiliated are the rational ones, and with more columns like this, their numbers will continue to grow."

That's fine for Europe, but America shows no signs of heading towards any prolonged religious wars...we're raised to believe that faiths can coexist, and coexist they do here, with few exceptions. Perhaps smug, or reactionary anti-religionists should wake up to the fact that hating people for being members of a faith or scoffing at them for different beliefs is bigotry at worst and childish at best? Many modern, cultured, urbane, and contemplative people believe in God. Religion and medievalism aren't synonymous. I can understand Europe's disillusionment, but blaming a belief for an action mistakes the nature of responsibility. The best of ideals of any stripe can be used in the worst of causes. It's no cause to sneer at ALL religion.

Dear Society:

Thomas Jefferson was not a Christian. His correspondence with John Adams makes it clear that he regarded Jesus purely as a human being and not a divinity. Jefferson and many other Founders were Deists, not Christians in any contemporary evangelical sense of the term. You've been misinformed by ill-intentioned political strategists who are trying to rewrite American history.

Err, guys, a handle like "Society of Christians for the Restoration of Old Testament Morality"?

He or she is kidding. I bet he or she is an atheist :)

"Society Christians for the Restoration..." you should really check your facts about the Founding Fathers! Some (I won't go so far as to say all), such as Thomas Jefferson, were, on their most religious days, deists -- believing in God, but not particularly attached to Christianity. If you actually read Jefferson's writings (in particular his correspondence) you will see this (so don't just take my word for it). A large number of the founders were profoundly influenced by the (dare I say it?) European Enlightenment. Additionally, you may not have actually read the constitution of the United States, which very *clearly* indicates the desire of the Founding Fathers to *not* make this nation a specifically Christian institution. There is one point on which I agree with Ms. Hoffman: "To your books!"

Dear Society:

It's clear that you haven't studied much about the Founders. Thomas Jefferson was not a Christian. His correspondence with John Adams makes it clear that he regarded Jesus purely as a human being and not a divinity. Many of the other Founders were Deists, not Christians. You may want to research your facts before making your pronouncements.

What seperate most Americans Christians from Muslims is that, they have group prayers on Sunday in church and we have groups prayers on Fridays in mosques.

And hey, who say we are godless! We both believe in God. Only that small detail on nature of God which we agree to disagree - a God comprising of three components for them, and a God of One for us. So there. Clear enough?

Thanks and regards

"J"

Spokesperson for the Society of Muslims for the Restoration of Godliness over Godlessness

Are we like the godless Europeans? No! We're not nearly that smart.

These actions are already written in God's word.No
surprise to me.

We are indeed one nation under God. We were founded as such by our Founding Fathers, who included such devout Christians as Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, and Thomas Paine. That is what separates us from the godless jihadists and the godless Taliban.

Written by a hick, for hicks! What a joke she is!

what century are we in.

Occam killed the idea of god with his razor in the 14th century.

Get over it people. No one is watching over you but you.

Let's see, Europe was obsessed with religion for millinea, and was simultaneously submerged in endless warfare for all that time.

Europe looses its obsession with religion and at the same time becomes overwhelmed with pacifisim.

Coincidence, or cause and effect relationship? Well, just do a little reading to find out what all those wars were about and who started them. Yoo Hoo for secularism and democracy.

And here I was thinking that "godless" was a compliment, referring to the triumph of reason over myth.

Silly me.

Ah, yes. We seem to agree that reading books and being religious are incompatible.

Once you are taught to believe in one fairy tale, you find it much easier to believe others. It wasn't the 'godless' who got us into Iraq, and it wasn't the godless who blindly supported it.

Where's the "Report Offensive Article" link?

If the Christians want their income levels to rise like the Jews and Hindus in that report, then they have to stop teaching their children to believe in creationism and other such nonsense and get back to science.

Is there a price to be paid for employing politicians and judges who live in a fantasy world populated by supernatural beings? If the price is high, how do we reverse course and move to a rational society?

As a frequent visitor, former resident , and avid reader of The Economist and other European news sources watching these issues, our journalist here is reporting that which is lamentable, yet candid.

Why is "godless" considered pejorative to some commentators? I don't mind anyone calling me godless or an atheist, because that's what I am.
Likewise, I don't mind anyone calling me a "liberal," even though some conservatives might consider that a pejorative term.

Dr. Paris, Know that many of us would take that as a compliment if we were lucky enough to have it directed at the US.

I wasn't quite sure how to respond to the profoundly offensive reference to "godless" Europeans in this column, but was heartened by some of the previous respondents who summed things up quite well. The only thing I can add is to ask what exactly is the significance of their so-called "godlessness"? Does it mean they are immoral or inferior to us in the US? If so, how is it that so many of those nations provide full health care coverage to every one of their citizens? How is that in many of those nations every citizen can get a college education without going into debt? How is it that most of those nations avoided embroiling themselves in a war that has killed and maimed thousands, and whose justification turned out to be a lie? It seems strange that one can look at Europe and America, and apply "godless" to the former as an insult.

Aah, you fanatic religious Americans, what separates you from the jihadists?

You can take your bible and shove it up where the sun never shine.

Claire Hoffman writes: "I doubt we'll become like those godless Europeans anytime soon. The vibrant and faithful flow of new Americans will keep that at bay. But it's something to watch."

Oh don't worry. We'll catch up with them eventually. It will probably be right about the time that Christians en masse follow your advice and hit the books.

What's the big deal that 10% of Americans are former Catholics? Do the math. 44% of Americans have changed religion. 10% of Americans have changed from the Catholic religion. That's a little less than a quarter of the total. Surveys place the percentage of Americans who identify themselves as Catholics at 23 - 24%. Or a little less than a quarter of the total. So Catholics appear to change religious affiliation about as often as non-Catholics. So why is this "the real news?"

As shocked like A. Thorn, your own article points out in paragraph 8: "That combined with the decline of American-born Catholics (the Church's numbers are still strong due to immigration)...." so does this mean that you naively believe there are no european immigrants to our country these days? Please.

Wreckless writers baffle me.

My question may take us a bit off this essay’s topic, but it does have to do with our nation’s changing religious experience. Do you recall a couple years ago a scholarly thesis proposing (forgot book title and author) a significant migration northward of adherents to fundamentalism? This would be a movement generally northward into Europe from Africa as well as into America and Canada from Middle and South America?

If a large number of fundamentalist would integrate into American society, I wonder how that would affect scientific progress and political stability here. What do you think, Ms Hoffman? Thank you.

This author nicely encapsulates why so many are running away from standard religion. Those "godless Europeans" watched themselves self-destruct under the weight of an irrational belief system for two thousand years. This Us versus Them stuff is juvenile and counterproductive. The unaffiliated are the rational ones, and with more columns like this, their numbers will continue to grow.

Ms. Hoffman:

"I doubt we'll become like those godless Europeans anytime soon. The vibrant and faithful flow of new Americans will keep that at bay. But it's something to watch."

Did you really just say that? Calling all (or the vast majority) of Europeans godless? say they aren't religious if that's true, but no need to stick the pejorative phrase 'godless' in there.

And is it really something we want to keep at bay? Look at how good Europe's economy is respect in the world is going right now, then compare it to the U.S. Those 'godless' Europeans might be doing something right.