Gordon B. Hinckley died Sunday at the age of 97. He spent nearly a half-century leading the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and every American should read Hinckley's obituary today (here's the Salt Lake Tribune's) to get a sense of the history of this fast-growing, totally unique, American-born religion and the changes it went through under Hinckley's superintendence.
Another possible reason to read it? Make Mitt Romney sad.
Hinckley's death wasn't unexpected -- he'd been unwell and he was old. Still, I can't help thinking that on a purely political level, it's particularly untimely for Romney in the run-up to Super Tuesday.
Given Romney's mention of Mormonism only once in his much anticipated "Faith in America" speech last month, I'm guessing the guy really would rather not dwell on his association with the LDS. Now, the public eye will likely be gazing intently upon the Mormon Church this week, as obituaries and news coverage of this long-time leader detail the Church's rapid global rise, untidy history and, of course, its somewhat mysterious rituals.
The irony here is that if we were to sum up the reign of Hinckley, I think he will be remembered as the President and Prophet who helped move the Mormon Church out of the shadows and into the glare of conversation in mainstream America.
When he was appointed, as the 15th president in the 177-year history of the Church, in 1995, Hinckley already had been leading the Church for decades in some form or another. The LDS' s website points out that Hinckley was popular with the media and appeared on 60 Minutes with Mike Wallace and on CNN’s with Larry King Live and was interviewed and quoted in hundreds of publications. This was different than the often clandestine and removed prior leadership of the Church. The LDS website also says that "during the Salt Lake Olympics of 2002, his request that the Church refrain from proselytizing visitors was credited by media with generating much of the goodwill that flowed to the Church from the international event." He also opened up the Church's genealogy information banks to the general public. Both of those moves show a savviness for drawing in and making comfortable a suspicious public.
Hinckley also oversaw an incredible expansion of the Church, both in terms of adherents and infrastructure. In recent years, in a rash of construction, the Church doubled the number of sacred LDS temples. Mormonism is considered one of the fastest growing faiths in the world -- second only to the Pentecostals. Today, the Church has about 13 million members worldwide -- compare that to the million members who belonged 60 years ago (when Hinckley was mid-career).
According to the church, the number is growing by roughly a million every three years (those numbers don't reflect those who join and then leave the religion. Something to consider with their strong missionary efforts in third world countries).
Despite those tremendous numbers and Hinckley's efforts, prejudice obviously remains against the LDS. Look no further than a recent analysis by a senior analyst at the Pew Research Center, who points out that careful county-by-county analysis of recent primaries have shown that evangelicals have not given the seemingly picture-perfect Mitt Romney their support. A Pew poll from last year reported that 30 percent of the people polled said they'd be less likely to support a candidate if he were Mormon.
Several of the obituaries I've read so far have included the details that will likely make the average non-Mormon look askance at Romney's faith -- founder Joseph Smith's seeing stones, the polygamy revelation, the massacre at Mountain Meadow, the sacred garments, the after-life ideas. I'm curious to see where Romney situates himself in this conversation. If he distances himself, he could be seen as a turncoat. If he inserts himself into it, he risks reminding voters that he's a part of a faith that many Americans have historically placed on the far-side of normal.
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Comments (72)
You don't pay my salary. Law Enforcement is a big field.
I work six days a week. I don't take vacation. If I choose to spend a few moments addressing the beliefs of the LDS church, of which I wrote a book, that's my free choice.
You are not addressing the thread, but instead diverting the subject by personal attacks on me.
Try to focus.
February 5, 2008 2:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 5, 2008 14:27
So Mary,
I am even more concerned that this is where you are spending your time (chat rooms and religious research) while I pay your salary? I can only hope you were working nights or on a vacation day Thursday & Friday?
Keep up the great work of making our streets and schools safer.
February 4, 2008 4:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 4, 2008 16:02
Hello, Concerned,
I work in law enforcement. You're not exactly giving me new information.
The comments were on Mitt Romney and Hinckley and the LDS (Mormon) church.
I was clarifying the teachings of the church using their materials.
If you believe in an afterlife (and in this wonderful country, we have the right to believe or not believe,) wouldn't you want to know the exact teachings of a church professing to teach and believe the same as Christianity? A church that calls itself Christian?
Our time on this earth is finite. I'm sure we agree on this. I am already concerned (and work toward) the evil in the world around me.
I also believe that we DO have an afterlife that is infinite. I have illustrated and quoted the teachings of the LDS church where they acknowledge where they will spend infinity.
My life's focus? Matthew 28:18-20.
February 1, 2008 5:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 1, 2008 17:36
Really Mary there are murderers and child molesters stalking our schools, mothers drowning their children, starving unemployed the world over and this is your life's focus? Get a hold of yourself!!
February 1, 2008 4:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 1, 2008 16:05
Thank you, Happy LDS. I'm not the least surprised that anything I said didn't make an impact on you. How do I know this? Because your founder can, and did, promise you'll spend eternity in everlasting burnings. By LDS definition, as well as Biblical definition, that's hell.
"… and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be Kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings," (Joseph Smith, King Follett Sermon)
“Father, art with me, and I with Thee, that they also may be agreed with us, and all come to dwell in unity, and in all the glory and everlasting burnings of the Gods” (Joseph Smith, June 16, 1844)
In the LDS Journal of Discourses, August 28, 1852, Elder John Taylor identified everlasting burnings as a place for “fallen sons of men.”
“I say, shall we shrink from the task of going forth to snatch these fallen sons of men from everlasting burning? Should we refuse to do so, it would testify that we had not a single spark of humanity in our bosoms, and were not fit to live in the world, much less to associate with the Gods in the eternal worlds.”
I know, I know, you don't have a problem with going to hell if Joseph Smith says it's a good place:
“I see no faults in the Church, and therefore let me be resurrected with the Saints, whether I ascend to heaven or descend to hell, or go to any other place. And if we go to hell, we’ll turn the devils out of doors and make a heaven of it. Where this people are, there is good society. What do we care where we’re, if the society be good?” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, V 5, page 517)
I will say that you were absolutely wonderful in illustrating the mind set of the typical LDS (Mormon) man. My post was not for you so much as for those not aware of LDS teachings, or who might believe that Mormonism is a form of Christianity.
February 1, 2008 3:40 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 1, 2008 15:40
Mary,
Glad you came back. Sorry that nothing you said has much impact, but was interesting reading. Try to remember that the Bible is the word of God and thank the early Christians for doing their best pulling it together. The Bible is not a record of when God started talking, all that he has said, or all that he will say. Brace yourself for change and progress! Try to have an open mind, a little more faith and a little more prayer.
February 1, 2008 12:03 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 1, 2008 12:03
Mary,
Glad you came back. Sorry that nothing you said has much impact, but was interesting reading. Try to remember that the Bible is the word of God and thank the early Christians for doing their best pulling it together. The Bible is not a record of when God started talking, all that he has said, or all that he will say. Brace yourself for change and progress! Try to have an open mind, a little more faith and a little more prayer.
February 1, 2008 12:00 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on February 1, 2008 12:00
Responding to Happy LDS
--Much of what you posted I don't know much about,
These teachings are not presented when trying to present LDS as Christian.
--don't think it impacts my standing in God's eyes
Just so you know what god you worship.
--as I don't control much of what you mention.
Who’s talking about control? I’m presenting LDS teachings.
---More importantly, if God believes any of that then I am on board as well.
God told you what He believes. It’s called the Bible.
---God, who used to be a man, was born on the planet Kolob. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.) I don't know where Kolob might be, but don't have a problem with this. I was created in his image so I imagine he is handsome.
It makes it rather hard, then, to say God created the universe. Better ink out Genesis 1:1.
-God is married to his goddess wife and they produce spirit babies. (Mormon Doctrine p. 516.)
---I wouldn't try to limit what God is capable of and I don't think it is wise for you either. We are his spirit children...no problem with this statement.
Of course you have no problem with your god having sex with his goddess wives. You’re going to get to do the same thing with your own planet, remember?
-God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus, (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857; vol. 8, p. 115.) Isn't that pretty much from the New Testament? Isn't Jesus the son of God and also Mary's son? I don't need to know other details as at LDS services we don't talk about it much. I believe the Catholics call it immaculate conception and actually have the day on their calendar (latin america).
“pretty much from the New Testament?” Ahhhh, no. You might try reading it sometime. Having sex, by definition, kinda takes care of the whole virgin issue. Gotta rip out Isaiah 7:14. The Catholic teaching of immaculate conception is not the same as virgin birth.
-Jesus is the older brother of satan and both are spiritual siblings to us. (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163; Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15.) An interpretation from Revelations (New Testament) I do believe we are all spirit children of God. That includes Christ, Satan, you and me. Yes, you are Ghandi's spirit brother as well as Hitler's spirit brother in God's very big family.
Revelation is singular, not plural. Where did you get that interpretation?
-There are three gods: the father, the son, and the holy ghost. (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.) Three separate beings with different responsibilities, a team, One in purpose.
It’s called polytheism. Oh, dear, get out that ink pen. You have a lot of inking out to do. Start with Isaiah 44:6. Move on to Isaiah 45:5. Keep going, you have a lot of work to do.
-If you become a Mormon, you have the potential to become a god (and get your own planet). (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354.) This is not exclusive to current Mormons, all have a chance to accept Jesus Christ in this life or after death. Well yes, God is our spirit father and we were created in his image, I have no expectation to become an oak tree or fruit fly, but may become like God himself if he allows it (not going to limit his potential). About my own planet, I don't think we know much about that, but if God created planets, I suppose he could create one for me, he is all powerful, why not?
And the really nice thing is your wife will be waiting for you to get her into the same planet, considering that women don’t get into Mormon heaven (celestial) without being married (sealed for time and eternity) in the temple to a Mormon man. After you get your planet, your lucky wife (and any other women you’ve had sealed to you in the temple) gets to be always pregnant to produce all those spirit babies needed to populate your planet. What a future for your goddess wife!
As I said, we do get a chance to spotlight the LDS teachings because of Mitt Romney and Hinckley.
January 31, 2008 3:01 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 31, 2008 15:01
Mary:
Much of what you posted I don't know much about, don't think it impacts my standing in God's eyes as I don't control much of what you mention. More importantly, if God believes any of that then I am on board as well.
God, who used to be a man, was born on the planet Kolob. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.) I don't know where Kolob might be, but don't have a problem with this. I was created in his image so I imagine he is handsome.
-God is married to his goddess wife and they produce spirit babies. (Mormon Doctrine p. 516.)
I wouldn't try to limit what God is capable of and I don't think it is wise for you either. We are his spirit children...no problem with this statement.
-God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus, (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857; vol. 8, p. 115.) Isn't that pretty much from the New Testament? Isn't Jesus the son of God and also Mary's son? I don't need to know other details as at LDS services we don't talk about it much. I believe the Catholics call it immaculate conception and actually have the day on their calendar (latin america).
-Jesus is the older brother of satan and both are spiritual siblings to us. (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163; Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15.) An interpretation from Revelations (New Testament) I do believe we are all spirit children of God. That includes Christ, Satan, you and me. Yes, you are Ghandi's spirit brother as well as Hitler's spirit brother in God's very big family.
-There are three gods: the father, the son, and the holy ghost. (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.) Three separate beings with different responsibilities, a team, One in purpose
-If you become a Mormon, you have the potential to become a god (and get your own planet). (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354.) This is not exclusive to current Mormons, all have a chance to accept Jesus Christ in this life or after death. Well yes, God is our spirit father and we were created in his image, I have no expectation to become an oak tree or fruit fly, but may become like God himself if he allows it (not going to limit his potential). About my own planet, I don't think we know much about that, but if God created planets, I suppose he could create one for me, he is all powerful, why not?
Till next time, cheers!
January 30, 2008 4:19 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 30, 2008 16:19
castanea:
"Your argument is that anyone who has left the church must by definition be disbelieved because they "just didn't get it.""
no...that is NOT my argument...read again, and don't judge.
I don't want to argue over sacred things, and I don't want to "set the record straight" because there is nothing to "set straight." If you want to know the truth, talk to missionaries, or go to lds.org...I'm not interested in arguing with someone that has her mind set on lies.
I hope someday you will find the real truth and maybe change your mind about some harsh things you've said about us...
I love my religion, I believe in it and it makes me want to be better every day...people can say a lot of things, but that is never going to change the truth that I know and that a lot of other people also know...I will share my beliefs with anyone that wants to listen, but not with people that just want to argue...
Castanea, I didn't want to argue with you about your points or anything that you are acusing me of doing... I just wanted to let you know that you were being very disrespectful of things that are sacred to me and many other people...like saying those things about the temple (which I have NEVER seen and I've been going there for almost a year...maybe your friends went a very long time ago and things have changed...), or calling Joseph Smith a charlatan...those things are just rude and uncalled for and don't sound like they come from a very tolerant person...I'm sorry if you felt like I wanted to just attack everything you said...I just wanted to tell make you aware of the harsh things you were saying.
I really don't want to argue, I think it's pretty useless in this situation... so, there it is!
good night!
January 29, 2008 10:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 29, 2008 22:49
With the passing of President Hinckley and the presidential hopes of Mitt Romney, a spotlight is fully on the LDS church. Of course they, as does any American, have the right and freedom to believe what they choose. Just a few of the teachings of Joseph Smith, Young and other elders and presidents of the church are:
-God, who used to be a man, was born on the planet Kolob. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.)
-God is married to his goddess wife and they produce spirit babies. (Mormon Doctrine p. 516.)
-God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus, (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 218, 1857; vol. 8, p. 115.)
-Jesus is the older brother of satan and both are spiritual siblings to us. (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163; Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15.)
-There are three gods: the father, the son, and the holy ghost. (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)
-If you become a Mormon, you have the potential to become a god (and get your own planet). (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354.)
Just a few highlights. Don't confuse Mormonism with Christianity.
Yep, folks have every right to believe anything they choose.
January 29, 2008 8:54 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 29, 2008 20:54
Might I suggest that "every American" also view this video on the Story of Joseph Smith, courtesy of South Park:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud5OGs7t8ak
January 29, 2008 12:35 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 29, 2008 12:35
Anonymous: WROTE
>>I am a non-Mormon and I lived in Utah for a number of years (and to this day I still have a number of Mormon friends). I can honestly say that I would never vote for a Mormon for President. This is not the same thing as people who were concerned that a JFK presidency would mean that the pope would run our country. Mormons (at least the ones in Utah) vote exactly how "the church" tells them to vote. I saw very little dissenting opinion in Utah (and not much tolerance for what little there was). I believe that Utah is the only state where Bill Clinton came in 3rd place in '92 (behind Perot). If Mitt Romney were president I have a hard time believing that he'd be able to think independently of his church leaders and that scares me.<<
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We could have a choice between which Kennedy look-alike will be the next president. What'll it be, Obama, Romney or stay home? Another lesser of two evils election?
Both believe the being in the burning bush was God as did all before them, so they say. And, (Ref: http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul ) it's plain that the whole country except for a handfull of atheists is going to hell. Will a Mormon finish the job, take us there, "sonner rather than later"? Maybe we'll get lucky again, just another lying politician. "Keep the faith." No one who has told the truth has been elected yet.
January 29, 2008 12:18 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 29, 2008 12:18
Did you hear Glenn Beck and Larry King go on about how wonderful GB Hinckley was as a man and religious leader last night? Check out Beck & Hinckley on youtube.com
Seems all religions have some strange beliefs, Noah's ark, circumcism, strange clothes, women priests, judgement day, Eden, messengers from heaven, gay marriage, holy water, preachers for hire, could it be that some strange beliefs even come from God herself/himself.
It seems the Mormon church continues to evolve, improve and grow, could it be that is why they think a prophet is necessary?
If there were a real prophet would you want to know what he/she had to say? Would you listen?
January 29, 2008 12:12 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 29, 2008 12:12
I'm not for besmirching the dead. Mr. Hinckly was probably a decent man, but the gay-hating his church promotes (and funds) is antithetical to common humanity.
I'll admit it, I won't vote for Romney because he's mormon. After living in Utah for many years and knowing and having many mormon friends, I just can't accept that a free-thinking adult can believe such utter and proveably false nonsense as the BOM gives out.
I know that is offensive to some but how can I see it any other way. Mormonism is just made up. Ask a mormon if they'd vote for a scientologist! Or just what they think about scientology.
BTW I wouldn't vote for Huckabee for the same reason, but that's Ok right, that's not persecution to the mormons........go figure. When Huckabee loses in Utah will the press be talking about the anti-evangelical bias? I think not. When you hear momrmon persecution READ "someone is objectively reviewing the basis of our religion"
It's not so much a religious test as a REALITY test, and frankly for me, mormonism fails completely.
January 29, 2008 11:55 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 29, 2008 11:55
Really there should be disrespect intended in proselytizing, or "sharing the gospel". Everyone is free to choose and God will be the judge, not any one of us.
Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon), believe:
"In the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all people the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may."
As is written in The New Testament of the Bible:
Matthew 4:19 “And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
And in Mark 1:4 “John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.”
And in Luke 24:47 “And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations”
This is exactly what the 60,000 LDS volunteer missionaries are engaged in each day all over the world. They are teaching and preaching, giving thousands an opportunity to hear the message of Jesus Christ to know the works of God. To know the reality of Christ’s resurrection and His continued work in leading His Church. I know of no other church with the same dedication of purpose, the same resolve. Gordon Hinckley led this church for 15 years and God now leaves it in other very capable hands.
As was also taught in Bible times, and discussed in 1 Corinthians (1 Corinthians 15:29):
For those who die without hearing, without accepting this message, many churches would have you believe you will be cast off to a bad place, but the truth is that they will have an opportunity to accept the gospel after death. The ordinance of baptism can be performed in your name by someone else willing to perform that ordinance for you.
Having lived in Africa myself I do have a great appreciation for the wonderful and various traditions and culture. It is good to know that the millions of wonderful people who die without hearing Christ’s message, can choose for themselves in the next life. The LDS church is sending as many missionaries as they can manage to Africa, but also to Iowa, Utah and Virginia. Not to change their culture or to sell books, but to present them with an opportunity to follow Jesus Christ. God would not discard a majority of the earth’s great people and condemn them for opportunities they never had.
The Church of Jesus Christ is an open book. To read more choose whatever source you like, but don't leave out the scriptures and lds.org
January 29, 2008 11:25 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 29, 2008 11:25
???,
The fact that you ignored the points I raised and instead have chosen to impugn the character of my friends who have left the church speaks volumes. Your argument is that anyone who has left the church must by definition be disbelieved because they "just didn't get it."
That's pretty lame, though it is in keeping with the church's attitude toward people who have weighed Mormon beliefs against what they feel in their own hearts and found the former sadly lacking.
And if you don't think the throat-slitting and disemboweling gestures are creepy, please inform us as to what those things represent and how they are used in Mormon ceremonies. My ex-Mormon friends have told me what they mean, but perhaps they are not to be trusted because they are apostates. So here's your chance to set the record straight.
January 29, 2008 11:22 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 29, 2008 11:22
Maybe prejudice remains against the LDS because prejudice remains among the LDS. Try living in Utah or Southern Idaho as a "Gentile"
Personally I think prejudice remains because of Mormon's bizarre theology and beginnings
January 29, 2008 10:54 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 29, 2008 10:54
Maybe prejudice remains against the LDS because prejudice remains among the LDS. Try living in Utah or Southern Idaho as a "Gentile"
January 29, 2008 10:29 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 29, 2008 10:29
Yonkers, New York
29 January 2008
To his credit, Mitt Romney has not been deliberately shy about his being a Mormon, nor is one to infer from his statements on the campaign trail that he is anything but a true believer.
In that crucial speech, Mitt Romney declared forthrightly and unabashedly that politics needs religion, and that religion needs politics--or words to that effect.
If elected president of these United States, his Mormom religion--and its whole edifice of dogmas, principles, strictures, and values--will very likely influence or color all of the judgments and decisions he will need to make routinely on a daily basis.
Would it be far-fetched to expect Mitt Romney, as president, to convert America into a VIRTUAL THEOCRACY--albeit a Mormom theocracy?
I don't think so. That is a very real possibility.
It is not surprising at all that Christian evangelicals should look askance at Mormonism: many if not most of them do not even consider it a Christian denomination. But they are of course entitled to their own opinion.
Come to think of it, exclusivity is a common characteristic of all religions.
Jews consider themselves the Chosen people of their God Jehovah.
Christians of all stripes consider their own religion the true one--and all others false.
But Buddhists don't agree with Christians on this crucial point. They find it hard to believe in the Holy Trinity--God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; in the Virgin Birth; in the Resurrection; and in several other Christian dogmas.
What about Islam? To their credit, Muslims who are true to their faith are commanded by the Qu-ran to tolerate Christians. They allow, however, that Jesus Christ was only a prophet, and that their God, Allah, is the true God of the Universe.
Human history is replete with instances where this sense of EXCLUSIVITY has driven one religion to so hate the other as to be driven by an uncontrollable urge to kill devotees of the other.
We could very well now be in the midst of what Samuel Huntington presciently called "a clash of civilizations"--Islam against Christianity and the Jewish faith.
The present conflict in Afghanistan, Lebanon, Palestine, Iraq--conflicts which are raging above-ground--and those in other parts of the Middle East which are still only simmering under the surface as of now--obviously are in reality that clash of civilizations.
Religion, taken in this light, is such a destructive force in human affairs.
Mariano Patalinjug
Yonkers, New York
MarPatalinjug@aol.com
January 29, 2008 6:15 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 29, 2008 06:15
Yonkers, New York
29 January 2008
To his credit, Mitt Romney has not been deliberately shy about his being a Mormon, nor is one to infer from his statements on the campaign trail that he is anything but a true believer.
In that crucial speech, Mitt Romney declared forthrightly and unabashedly that politics needs religion, and that religion needs politics--or words to that effect.
If elected president of these United States, his Mormom religion--and its whole edifice of dogmas, principles, strictures, and values--will very likely influence or color all of the judgments and decisions he will need to make routinely on a daily basis.
Would it be far-fetched to expect Mitt Romney, as president, to convert America into a VIRTUAL THEOCRACY--albeit a Mormom theocracy?
I don't think so. That is a very real possibility.
It is not surprising at all that Christian evangelicals should look askance at Mormonism: many if not most of them do not even consider it a Christian denomination. But they are of course entitled to their own opinion.
Come to think of it, exclusivity is a common characteristic of all religions.
Jews consider themselves the Chosen people of their God Jehovah.
Christians of all stripes consider their own religion the true one--and all others false.
But Buddhists don't agree with Christians on this crucial point. They find it hard to believe in the Holy Trinity--God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; in the Virgin Birth; in the Resurrection; and in several other Christian dogmas.
What about Islam? To their credit, Muslims who are true to their faith are commanded by the Qu-ran to tolerate Christians. They allow, however, that Jesus Christ was only a prophet, and that their God, Allah, is the true God of the Universe.
Human history is replete with instances where this sense of EXCLUSIVITY has driven one religion to so hate the other as to be driven by an uncontrollable urge to kill devotees of the other.
We could very well now be in the midst of what Samuel Huntington presciently called "a clash of civilizations"--Islam against Christianity and the Jewish faith.
The present conflict in Afghanistan, Lebanon, Palestine, Iraq--conflicts which are raging above-ground--and those in other parts of the Middle East which are still only simmering under the surface as of now--obviously are in reality that clash of civilizations.
Religion, taken in this light, is such a destructive force in human affairs.
Mariano Patalinjug
Yonkers, New York
MarPatalinjug@aol.com
January 29, 2008 6:15 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 29, 2008 06:15
Castanea:
"And as for sacred and precious things in the temple, well, I've heard from ex-Mormon friends about the rituals they performed and that they didn't really feel they were sacred or precious. In fact, they thought the bakers' hats and aprons were goofy, and that the throat-slitting and disemboweling gestures were creepy."
thank you for pointing out that those were your "ex-mormon" friends, clearly they didn't understand those sacred ceremonies. And if you are wondering what is sacred and profane, talking about those things with others, specially on the internet is NOT sacred and NOT being tolerant and respectful of other religions.
I'm sure that Judas probably thought that Christ was also "creepy" and "goofy" and therefore sold him out.
Oh, and calling Joseph Smith a charlatan clearly shows that you need to do some more research and rely on other people rather than your "ex-mormon" friends.
January 29, 2008 12:30 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 29, 2008 00:30
Read the SLCT obit having been so advised to edify myself by Ms. Hoffman, and I'm baffled. For Republican Evangelicals, what's not to like? As a liberal Democrat I take offense at his seizing the opportunity to pile on Gays, it seems, just to get cozy with mainstream Christians. In due course, same as they had to change their racist doctrine on African Americans and earlier their practice of polygamy, someday in order to keep up with America, the the LDS will be obliged to honor same-sex marriages, sure as snow falls in February on Hinkley's grave.
January 29, 2008 12:23 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 29, 2008 00:23
I have been reading all these comments and all I can say is that people should get informed before they judge other religions.
I have only lived in Utah for 2 years and a half. I spent the rest of my life living in Spain and all over South America. Let me just tell you some things that I've learned and know as a member from OUTSIDE of Utah:
1. The LDS church is NOT republican...leaders CAN'T tell us who to vote for! it would be ridiculous because we are a world wide church with members that have different political beliefs! From socialists to republicans, to anything you want! The church gives us the freedom to chose who we elect as our political leaders...Even if I WAS a citizen of the US I wouldn't vote for Romney...
2. There are so many myths and misconceptions about the LDS church...if you really want to learn the truth, go to lds.org or get informed in some other way... but PLEASE...not from anti-mormon propaganda!! that is NOT the way to learn people...come on! if you want to get the facts right go to the primary sources!! THE LDS CHURCH ITSELF!!! and...yeah...NOT the Salt Lake Tribune...
3. Sacred things are meant to be kept sacred. Just like other religions have their rituals and their ceremonies, so do we. Our aim is not to exclude, or to look superior to anyone else...on the contrary, missionaries proselytize because they want others to feel the joy of being a member of the church. Believing in something as strongly as members believe in the gospel of Jesus Christs makes them want to share it so that others can feel what they feel.
4. Utah DOES NOT EQUAL the LDS church or "Mormonism". Just because you have met a couple of weird Mormons from or in Utah doesn't mean that we are all that way...Just like with eeevery other religion, even among atheists, there are different kinds of people...It is amazing how "Mormons" get judged based ONLY on their religion, while believers from other religions don't ever get accused of being "strange" or different because of their religion...people attribute their "strangeness" to other things! so...come on...get informed and don't make judgments from the imperfect members who make mistakes just like everyone from every religion does.
5. I have NEVER felt forced to keep a commandment, or to follow the council of my leaders. I do it because I want to do it, and if I don't want to I don't have to! I do it because it gives me joy to do what I know is the right thing, because it brings peace to my life, because the greatest happiness and fulfillment I have felt in my life has come from making the right decision, mostly from things I have learned from scriptures, my leaders, and church...and also the saddest times have come from NOT making the right decision...
It is not the church's fault if people feel pressured to do something, it is their OWN decision to feel that way. Again...the church WON'T tell you who to vote for...they don't make decisions for you! if someone has made you think that, then THEY are not understanding the gospel of Christ that we believe it.
Please get informed if you are really interested...make your judgments after finding the truth from trusted sources...be tolerant of other religions just like President Hinckley has asked US to be (the fact that some Mormons are NOT tolerant illustrates my point that we are not FORCED to do anything...we are told to obey, but we can make our own decisions as to obey or not!)...don't make judgments about the LDS church or Mormonism as a whole from imperfect mormons that you meet! that is as unfair as judging the catholic religion from some of my catholic friends who don't know a whole lot about their religion...
President Gordon B. Hinckley was an amazing man. If you want to find out more about him from the CORRECT source, please see:
http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/
January 29, 2008 12:17 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 29, 2008 00:17
The world lost its finest leader and best friend yesterday. Clearly, there is no one alive in Washington who has done more consistent good for our country and the world than Brother Hinckley. I have often wondered to what great heights our country could achieve if we in Washington had a glimpse of his vision of what we, the people, could become.
January 28, 2008 11:15 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 28, 2008 23:15
NY Life,
By "qualified members" who are allowed in the temple, you of course mean people who have kept up on their tithing. Perhaps folks of other denominations can help clarify, but off hand I don't know of any other such major religion that keeps its holy places off-limits to members who haven't paid up.
Just say it: In the LDS church, you have to pay to play. I'm okay with that as long as church members have enough honor to admit the truth.
And by new doctrines do you mean the belief that two tribes of Israel migrated to Central America and then were visited by Jesus Christ? And that in the early 19th century, Joseph Smith was directed to golden tablets by the Angel Moroni?
And that Smith then translated the tablets, with the aid of seer stones, by staring into a hat, whence came the Book of Mormon? And that the golden tablets simply disappeared after he was done?
And that the Garden of Eden is really in Missouri? And that God turned the Lamanites' skin dark because He found disfavor with them, which is how American Indians appeared on the scene?
You mean those doctrines?
Look, every religion has its quirky beliefs, but no religion can have so many of its beliefs proven factually false. You are acquainted with the work of the now-excommunicated geneticist who proved that native Americans are not the descendants of Israelites, right?
Jake,
Don't even begin to claim that the bigotry faced by racial and ethnic minorities is similar to the feelings many people have regarding the LDS church. I've often read apologists lamenting the persecution of the pioneers. Well, those pioneers included petty criminals and hucksters. They weren't kindhearted utopians set on creating a better world.
I only speak for myself when I say that Mormons should be tolerated, but I'd wager that most people who post on this thread agree with me. Toleration, though, doesn't mean that any particular group should be free from honest scrutiny.
If anything, what Mormons are the victims of is their refusal to accept that their religion was founded by a charlatan who shrouded much of the marriage (and other) ceremonies in his new church in secrecy so he and his cronies could have multiple wives.
And as for sacred and precious things in the temple, well, I've heard from ex-Mormon friends about the rituals they performed and that they didn't really feel they were sacred or precious. In fact, they thought the bakers' hats and aprons were goofy, and that the throat-slitting and disemboweling gestures were creepy.
It's all open to one's personal preference as to what is sacred and profane, of course, but the argument that you fall back on--i.e., "sacred, not secret"--rings false. Getting rid of the secrecy would be the first step for the LDS church entering mainstream America and the 21st century.
I actually would welcome that. Just as I know many good atheists, many good agnostics, many good Roman Catholics, I know many good Mormons. The problem lies in the fact that the "giving Church" derives its power and wealth from keeping those good Mormons in line.
Utah, which is overwhelmingly LDS, has among the highest rates of anti-depressant use, of suicide, and of bankruptcy in America, and the last time I checked it had a divorce rate higher than the national average. That's not all due to the influence of us gentiles skewing the stats with our drunken orgies on 3.2 beer and Sunday morning shopping sprees.
A new doctrine can't make those facts go away.
January 28, 2008 9:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 28, 2008 21:49
"not let them be open to public dissection!?". Huh? You are talking about a wedding for cripes sake. Not a look into a vault containing Mormon secrets. For a religion that prides itself on "family", they sure have a way of excluding "family" if they are not Mormon. I have attended Catholic, Lutheran, Baptists and Epsicopal wedding. But apparently I will never attend a Mormon wedding because, well, I'm not one...
January 28, 2008 8:23 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 28, 2008 20:23
Castenea -
It is easy to say that people who cry intolerance are annoying and dismiss them, but if that were the case where would we stand on civil rights? Religion is a protected group just like the others you mentioned. You are just as free to say you won't vote for a Mormon as I am to ask why. I understand that you are bitter about the time that you were kept out of the wedding. I'm sorry that you had to miss it and I am sure it was frusterating. My father in law missed our wedding for the same reason. On the issue of secrecy, it is the notion of sacred that is hard to comprehend in "mainstream America." We aren't hiding secret plans to overthow the country anything like that. We simply feel that there are things that are so sacred and precious that we would rather not let them be open to public dissection. If there is nothing in your life that you hold so sacred that you wouldn't want it as a headline on Washington Post or whatever, then I guess that it must be hard to understand.
If you were the only guy/gal that had this issue, I'd be glad to sit down with you and discuss a few things. The problem is that it is a general misunderstanding of one the of the most giving and generous organizations in the world to which I belong that frustrates me. The church feels like family to me. There are those who, like President Hinckley, are exemplary and those who are not so, just like the cousins that you love but don't understand. The LDS faith has a lot to offer and does much to help communities here in the states as well as other countries. I've heard the word "Mormon" more times on the news in the last 6 months than in the whole of my life previously. The church is dear to me and it suffers a lot of ridicule due to lack of understanding. I imagine you can understand.
As to your piont about crying "intolerance," I'd like you to find any publcation anywhere that the church has asked for any apology, public or private for the defamation it receives on it's own grounds in Salt Lake during conferences or for the unbelievable crimes that it suffered in its early years in Missouri. The church can roll with the punches, I just happen to be a little protective.
January 28, 2008 7:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 28, 2008 19:46
Claire's original theme seems interesting enough; how will the death of Hinckley affect the primaries?
Then she take a decidedly left turn. In Utah news is delivered in two flavors, one comes from the SL Tribune quoted above and the other the Deseret News. For the obit from the other point of view see the DNews. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695247765,00.html.
Using only the negative portions of the Tribune obituary, one could have surmised the undermining intent of the writer.
Politics aside, Hinckley spent his life helping others.
January 28, 2008 7:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 28, 2008 19:42
Just a few thoughts of my own. I appreciate the respect that the majority of posts above are treating this topic. A couple of the posts have had some bad experiences with Mormons, and I am sorry about that.
As a non-Utah native, I have had my own mixed opinions while living in Utah. Just as I had my mixed opinions of Florida while living there. Both states, at least the cities I lived in, were pretty homogenous. But, in different ways. But, I have wonderful memories and friends in both locations.
Having been a missionary for the Mormon church overseas, I am amazed anyone was willing to listen to me. Not because the doctrines aren't worth listening to. I believe them completely. But, because I was an awkward 19 year boy, and immature at times, and clumsy or pushy. But, proselytizing is a good thing if you believe that what your sharing can be a blessing to people. I have seen many people's lives improve as a result. Not everyone wants to listen. That's fine. But, those who do are grateful for the missionaries stopping by.
Some of the doctrines of the Mormon church are new to our society. Most are the same as taught in the bible (and we do believe the Bible to be the word of God). To the person hurt by not being able to attend the temple for your friends wedding, I can empathize. But, recognize that there is a difference between secret and sacred. The Mormon church publishes a significant amount of material on what goes on in the temple. We hold open houses to the public prior to the dedication, so you can see all of the rooms and go on a tour of what is done there. So, it really isn't as secret as you may believe. We dedicate the temples to a holy purpose and only qualified members are allowed into the temple after it is dedicated.
There is much that isn't understood about the Mormon faith and that fear of the unknown influences opinions. That is the reaction most of us felt after 9/11. I know I did a little. I then spent some time talking with a Muslim colleague at work and was grateful I learned more about his faith. It eased my concerns and initial reactions of prejudice.
Regarding political influence, an earlier post was accurate stating that the church imposes no policy or direction as to how we should vote. The reason why so many Mormons are Republican, I believe, is largely over moral issues like abortion. Since the political system forces a choice between one of two parties, most will err on the side of preserving life. However, I could imagine many more Mormons joining the Independent party as well. Living in New York, I have many Mormon friends associated with all parties. Like most citizens of this country, I don't agree with everything of the party I've joined. But, I am stuck to choose one in order to vote.
What I think is important for our nation to accept is that any laws that would limit the rights of a Mormon or a Protestant, or a Muslim, would eventually threaten the rights of the other faiths or those with no faith.
January 28, 2008 7:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 28, 2008 19:31
Dear How Would G Respond:
Re your quote: "Misunderstanding grows out of ignorance and suspicion. As we learn to know and appreciate those of various cultures, we come to appreciate them.” Remarks to National Press Club, 8 March 2000
If President Hinckley practiced what he preached, he would have renounced proselytization. For the premise of proselytization is disrespect towards other cultures/ religions.
January 28, 2008 7:18 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 28, 2008 19:18
Ah, yes. The Republican playbook (How To Win No Matter What) must have been reprinted just in time for Super Tuesday; a softcover version of the 2004 edition.
Now kids, feel free to read along with John & Mitt. Chapter 2 starts with "Let's look closer at John's military record", followed by "Is Mitt really Christian enough"?
Next week's quiz words: Traitor, Surrender, Pacifist, Treason, Blue State, and Jesus.
January 28, 2008 6:49 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 28, 2008 18:49
In response I will use a quote from President Gordon Hinckley himself:
"Misunderstanding grows out of ignorance and suspicion. As we learn to know and appreciate those of various cultures, we come to appreciate them.” Remarks to National Press Club, 8 March 2000
I do hope that through further study your ignorance becomes understanding and appreciation.
January 28, 2008 6:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 28, 2008 18:42
If Mitt respects all religions, as he has said he does, then he should ask his church to give up proselytizing. For is it not a sign of ultimate disrespect to ask someone to change his/her religion because yours is better? Renounce proselytizing and I will believe you respect all religions!
January 28, 2008 6:16 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 28, 2008 18:16
I am a faithful member of the Mormon church. And I will not be voting for Mitt in November. I am a Democrat and I will support the Democratic nominee in November (Obama ‘08!).
Contrary to what several previous posters have indicated, I have experienced zero pressure from my religious leaders, whether blatant or subtle, to change my opinion or political preferences. There are many Democrats in my local congregation, all of whom have no problem reconciling their political leanings with their religion. We are encouraged by our leaders to study the issues, then "vote our conscience,” and I have never felt that this instruction was insincere.
Some posters have questioned to whom Mitt will be loyal: his nation or his religion? In my 27 years I don't recall ever hearing a Mormon rationalize lawbreaking based on religious beliefs. As a Mormon in America, I believe that fealty to the country which gave birth to my religion is not secondary to God’s will, it is God’s will.
January 28, 2008 6:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 28, 2008 18:13
A very interesting collection of postings. So much so, I feel compelled to add my own. I grew up behind the Zion Curtain...born and raised LDS. Though I went a different way according to my own beliefs and spirituality, I still have a great deal of love and respect for the LDS people and culture in general, and believe President Gordon B. Hinkley was a good man. Condolences to his family and all who loved and respected him. That said, The complexities of living in Utah are many. Very many of the LDS faith know and understand this as well as many agree among one another about just how different "out-of-state" members can be. Many of the difficulties, I believe, and I have been on the short end of the stick in my personal life with my wife and two children quite literally taken away from me when I decided that I would never "believe" in the first vision of J. Smith and many other of the religious precepts..., arise out of the LDS culture being such a strong and dominant majority. I have had friends from other parts of the country where other faiths have also held such dominance and some of the stories sounded exactly the same as my own and others that I've heard. In general, and after years of getting mostly over my own anger, I've concluded it's just the way humans in different "tribes" interact, religious or otherwise. It could be Shia vs. Sunni or Baptist vs. Catholic. Each of the tribes, religious or otherwise, have their own wonderful people and traditions. All of them have a dark side. But back to "Mormons", in general they are some of the best folks you'll ever meet, know, or love. They come in all shapes, thankfully now colors, and degree of belief from the devout to the Jack-Mormon. Like any people anywhere, beware the scoundrel and the unthoughtful. (It's too bad ex-member males like me are condemned to "outer-darkness", a fate worse than what Hitler will receive if one believes in the LDS version of after-life, just because we choose to follow our own beliefs, oh well.)
January 28, 2008 6:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 28, 2008 18:13
Mormons are non-thinking, order-taking androids who simply follow political instructions from Salt Lake! They are all the same politically! Just ask Harry Reid and Orrin Hatch who...uh....er....Oh wait, they are on complete opposite sides of the US Senate. Uh, what was I saying again?
January 28, 2008 6:00 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 28, 2008 18:00
I'm not going to say that I could never vote for a mormon as president, despite the persecution of non- mormons (still called gentiles in utah) in Utah. What I will say is that we should be careful not to equate all religions with one another. It seems that, in attempting to assuage the fears of violent reaction to differences in religion, we have bought into the theory of comparative religion- that what is essential about them are their similarities- instead of paying attention the theology at their core. At bottom, there are differences between religions that, if one is truly a believer, must be manifested in their behavior as well. This is not to say that one can judge theology by the actions of a religion's followers, but only that it should make one curious about the association. For my part, I could vote for a mormon such as Romney, whose religion has not been part of his platform. But I am leary of Mormonism and the LDS church as a whole, because of the actions of its founders (Joseph Smith and Brigham Young), its actions at its inception, and its cloistering in Utah. One would do well to inform oneself on these things.
January 28, 2008 6:00 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 28, 2008 18:00
When I was a young teen I was condemned to the "Outer Darkness" by a "Missionary" of the LDS church. The reason why I was so condemned was that I rejected their teachings. I was told that the Outer Darkness was not as bad as hell.
My question is: Do the missionaries still condemn people to the Outer Darkness because they choose not to believe what the Mormons teach?
January 28, 2008 5:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 28, 2008 17:56
Jake,
Like many self-serving apologists, you mistake unwillingness to vote for a Mormon candidate as intolerance. Nothing could be further from the truth, and you are being duplicitous for making it seem as if it were. Indeed, the willingness to cry "intolerance!" when confronted with criticism has grown tiresome.
Being a Mormon is a choice, just like being a Democrat, or just like being a conservative. Race and gender, however, are not choices. My god, it's not as if anyone were promoting concentration camps for Mormons. You are free to practice your religion as you see fit, just as I am free to vow never to vote for a Mormon until the church tosses off its veil of secrecy.
For example, I could not attend the temple wedding of good friends because I was a gentile. Whereas the church has a right to admit whoever it likes to ceremonies, operating under that level of secrecy in 21st century America is creepy. If the church craves acceptance by mainstream America--and I believe that it does--it will have to let mainstream America inside the temple.
January 28, 2008 5:54 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 28, 2008 17:54
I'd just like to say that a number of the statements above have their facts wrong. If you want to cut down people and religions at least do some research first before arguing against something that is a false statement to begin with... and by research I'm not talking wikipedia.
The church believes in giving it's members their agency (i.e. choice) so the church does not support one party or candidate over the other. The church does have values that it's members share thus members are likely to share the same feelings toward political candidates.
As for church numbers in regards to membership I'm willing to guess that all the other religions of the world have people listed in their records as members who never attend or practice that faith as well. Membership in the LDS church has growth regardless of the small number of people listed who are not active.
Gordon B. Hinckley was a truly amazing person. He spent his life serving others and showing compassion. A person as generous as he was is hard to come by in the world we live in. It would be nice if people would show some respect.
January 28, 2008 5:50 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 28, 2008 17:50
I simply don't understand why we are able, as a cournty, to pat ourselves on the back for coming so far as to allow a black man and woman the opportunity to run for President, but so many people (30%) are able to in good conscience say that they would not vote for a Mormon based on no other information that that he is one. What is so bad about LDS people? Do we have some things in our past that are hard for people to understand? Of course we do. Are there things in the Bible that a lot of Christians skim over because they'd rather not address the logistics of them? Sure. I am sad that the death of Gordon B. Hinckley so quickly turned to the issue of how Mitt Romney should be expected to react to it. Many LDS members that I know feel that we have lost a person akin to a grandparent, but are happy that President Hinckley now is able to be re-united with his wife after death. I don't expect people to understand everything about my faith, but I would expect Americans to exercise some tolerance. As I read it, it was religious freedom that brought many people to this continent in the first place. That has expanded to include all races, genders and even sexual orientations. Could someone explain why the LDS faith falls outside that realm? Look into the welfare programs that the LDS Church has. Finally, I would like to see someone in the media address the fact that the LDS church is one of very few that has an actual policy sent down directly from the presiding leadership that forbids the use of any church-owned property or assets to be used for political gain or campaigning. There have been mulitple candidates using church pulpits as their podium for speeches or to gain influence with a particular group. The LDS church WILL NOT allow this. I have NEVER been told in any way, directly or indirectly, how to vote by any church leader.
January 28, 2008 5:08 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 28, 2008 17:08
Claire, I thought you were refering to the Catholic church in your hastily written piece above:
You mention the "Church's rapid global rise" (a reference to Catholic baptism of babies instead of letting them choose for themselves?),
"untidy history" (do you refer to the Inquisition, purchase of indulgences or Papal relationship to Mussolini and Hitler?)
"and, of course, its somewhat mysterious rituals" (such as sexual abuse, celebacy and services in latin?).
January 28, 2008 5:07 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 28, 2008 17:07
I have read with some amusement at how much people think they know about the LDS Church of which they are not members. I have NEVER in 32 years had the Church try to influence or to suggest who to vote for. I have always heard the leadership encourage thoughtful consideration of candidates, and to exercise our right to vote, to be good citizens.
The idea that church leadership would try to influence his actions is absolutely rediculous.
I believe that Mitt will live by one of our stated beliefe, which is to worship according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all people to do the same. He will defend your rights, not abuse them.
January 28, 2008 5:01 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on January 28, 2008 17:01
Several recent posts here are mis-informed.
The LDS church teaches it members to obey, honor and sustain the law of the land. This information takes just a few minutes on the church's website to discover. To assert that they have much in common with radicals like the Taliban is laughable.
If a member makes a covenant to support the 'objectives of the church" as was stated here recently, one of those objectives being to teach its memebers to obey, honor and sustain the law of the land, then where precisely, is the conflict of interest alluded to?
Finally, without a leadership position in the church Mr. Romney's priesthood authority is limited to members of his own family. G